CLEVELAND, Ohio — In this episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast, Ethan Sands, Chris Fedor & Jimmy Watkins analyze Jarrett Allen’s impact, his pairing with Evan Mobley, stats, and his role in the Cavs’ future.
Takeaways:
Jarrett Allen is crucial for the Cavs’ defensive structure.
His role as a screen-setter is often overlooked.
Evan Mobley’s rise impacts Allen’s usage and stats, but Kenny Atkinson has effectively utilized both big men together.
The Cavs’ success is tied to Allen’s presence on the court, even if statistical contributions don’t fully capture Allen’s impact.
The future of the Cavs may involve a shift away from Allen and trade discussions around Allen are influenced by his contract value. Age and timeline are also crucial factors in evaluating player trades.
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Read the automated transcript of today’s podcast below. Because it’s a computer-generated transcript, it may contain errors and misspellings.
Ethan Sands
What up, Cavs Nation? I’m your host, Ethan Sands, and I’m back with another episode of the Wine and Gold Talk Podcast. Jimmy Watkins is joining, as well as Chris Fedor. There’s a lot to get into today, especially when you talk about the size of the person that we are going to be talking about. Jarrett Allen.
There’s been criticism of his game thus far into the season, and there’s also been room to praise. So let’s start with the basics. Chris, what do you like about what you’ve seen from Jarrett Allen? And do you think there’s room for improvement or room to say that there’s things he could be doing better?
Chris (00:53.714)
I mean, I think the things that I like about Jarrett guys are the same things that he has shown throughout his time with the Cavs. He’s involved heavily in what they do offensively. It may not always go noticed, but he’s an elite screen-setter. He’s an elite roller. He provides vertical spacing. And then on the defensive end of the floor, you know, he’s one of their anchors defensively. He’s the mouthpiece on defense.
He’s a low maintenance, all-star caliber big man. And those things aren’t easy to find. And I just think sometimes Jarrett goes overlooked because so many people are focused on Donovan. So many people are focused on Darius. And now the rise of Evan Mobley becoming, you know, the guy for this franchise moving forward. But they lose sight of just how important Jarrett is. When he’s on the floor, they consistently win games. When he’s not on the floor, when he’s injured for any kind of stretch.
They’re a different team. And that to me is the thing that I think is important when it comes to Jarrett is that like there’s all these guys on this team that are high touch, high volume guys. And Jarrett has found a way to carve out a role, be effective in his role and be an effective member of this core four while his touches fluctuate, while his opportunities fluctuate, while his shot attempts fluctuate.
And I think he plays to his role on every single possession and every single night that he takes the floor. And I just don’t think you can overlook that and the importance of that kind of player on this team in the way that it’s constructed.
Jimmy Watkins (02:37.715)
Yeah, career guys and field goal percentage and effective field goal percentage because he doesn’t take any threes. It’s always funny when those are the same number. Remains as efficient as you could possibly want out of a big man. Remains. You need on teams this talented, Chris alluded to it there, but you need a go along to get along guy. You need a guy who doesn’t like who is part of the core for and can, we’ve seen it, give you 20 and 15 on a given night, but doesn’t care if it’s, you know.
8 and 15 on other nights. I think that’s particularly important because I mean, Jarrett’s this is his is also a function of what Kenny’s doing at large. Everyone’s playing fewer minutes. Jarrett is playing the fewest minutes per game as that since he’s since coming to Cleveland and particularly the thing that I’m watching closely is when he sits during some of these fourth quarters, it continues.
I continue to be very intrigued by the Evan Mobley only minutes at center. I’m very intrigued by how that looks against the Boston Celtics. I’m very intrigued about how that will look against the Boston Celtics in the playoffs because at a certain point here, and again, I’m mostly just jumping to this point because everything that Chris said, I agree with and I don’t want to regurgitate. Jarrett Allen’s an elite rim running center. If you don’t have one of those, a lot of teams will be jumping at the bit.
to get Jarrett Allen on their roster, particularly at his price point. And again, I will reiterate, he is an incredible locker room presence. is, mean, it goes unnoticed that he’s a great screaser. That’s also a really thankless job. You’re just banging into dudes all the time. And obviously the guards, you hope, getting the brunt of the contact there, but as we saw in the playoffs last year, Jarrett Allen, it wasn’t a screen that he got hurt on, but like,
you’re taking hips, shoulders, and elbows all the time when you’re setting those screens too. That’s a real rough and tough job that he’s doing out there. That being said, as much as we still like the things that we all liked before about Jarrett Allen, I still think it’s particularly given that Evan Mobley has made something beyond a mini-leap already this season. The question about the two big pairing is as...
Jimmy Watkins (05:05.077)
as ever even if it’s for different reasons now right like we are seeing the offense function at a really really high rate with both of them playing 30 ish minutes a game the numbers are still obviously better when you have one big off the floor but you’re seeing Kenny work around that you can still build one of the league’s best offenses around those two guys that’s a good sign but when it comes to
Playoff time, still, I still think that’s a situa- we are still in a situation here where Jarrett Allen could not be on this team next summer. Where, and I think it’s just more because of Evan Mobley than it, than it, because I think before it was a Jarrett Allen conversation. Is he, is he tough enough after the Knicks series? I guess last year same conversation, can they coexist? Now it’s just like Evan Mobley is so good that-
Do you still, the question now is do you still need Jarrett Allen to soak up these minutes at center the way you used to? Because Evan Mobley is getting stronger. Evan Mobley is throwing his weight around a little bit more. He’s really blossoming as a finisher at the rim. And he’s, by the way, he’s making a bunch of threes, which could go into the keep both column, keep both big men column. But man, it’s getting interesting on Evan Mobley Island right now.
Chris (06:13.862)
Mm-hmm.
Jimmy Watkins (06:30.035)
It’s getting really interesting in that unfortunately still somehow means we have questions about Jarrett Allen. Jarrett Allen’s entire existence on this team has been unfair to him, but that’s how it is.
Chris (06:42.502)
I think we can all admit that the future of Evan Mobley is at center. And I think we can all admit that eventually there is going to be an iteration of this basketball team without Jarrett Allen on it. It’s going to be Evan Mobley at center and Jarrett’s going to be somewhere else. But the question is, are we there yet? And I think it was pretty telling the other night, Thursday night, the Cavs did not want Evan Mobley on the floor with Jokic without Jarrett Allen. Like every time Jokic came to the scorers table,
they signaled for Jarrett. Every time Jokic checked out of the game, they took Jarrett out of the game because they wanted to match those minutes. So there’s still like a belief within this organization that there are certain matchups that are just not going to be favorable for Evan as the full time center against certain guys. Now, I think that list is getting smaller and smaller. And if that list is ImbiD and Jokic and maybe like Anthony Davis,
And as you keep going on, like that’s not that bad, but like they still, they feel like they need Jarrett for those types of matchups. And again, you can sit here and you can say, well, you know, two of those guys are out West and who knows about Embiid, but there’s a value that Jarrett has that can’t be overlooked. And you saw it Thursday night and the way that he defended Jokic.
Evan Mobley is not ready to do that yet. He’s just not. And maybe he’s going to be as this season goes on, but the Cavs are telling you that they don’t believe he’s ready for that particular assignment. And if the Cavs don’t have Jarrett Allen, if he’s not on this roster, then the way that they defended Jokic would have been completely different because Jarrett’s capable of doing things still from a physical standpoint, from
maturity standpoint that the Evans not there yet. Not yet.
Ethan Sands (08:43.887)
And I think you can also throw Giannis into that conversation because of the matchups that the Cavs have put Jarrett Allen on with Giannis, especially with how much they like that matchup and how much we’ve seen Jarrett Allen have a reputation for stifling Giannis as well. So I completely agree with that sentiment, Chris, that Evan is not to that point. And Jimmy, I think you opened a can of worms into almost all the topics we were going to talk about today.
Let me backtrack and give the listeners and the viewers some more background information on why we are having this conversation. There have been questions about what Jarrett Allen’s impact in the stats box has looked like over the last couple of weeks, right? Jarrett Allen dating back to the Atlanta Hawks game in Atlanta on Friday, November 29th has struggled a little bit and it’s varied, right?
He had six points and five rebounds in that game. Obviously he was also a hundred percent from the field, three of three. So that’s something you got to question. Then you look at the Boston Boston game on Sunday, December 1st, he had eight points, 10 rebounds. He was 66.7 % from the field. Then the Washington Wizards game, 11 points and three rebounds. That’s a game where they went up with Jonas Valanchunas.
It’s different to talk about how he matches up with such a strong big. And we’ve talked about that a little bit, but how does Jarrett make his impact on the boards and those kinds of contexts? It’s definitely something that Cal fans are used to and were surprised by the lack of the rebounds in that category. Then you see him kind of come back to his fold, especially as Chris talked about against the Denver Nuggets, where he had eight points.
and 15 rebounds. And then he also had six assists. So showing his value as a facilitator in the pick and roll, in the half roll, in the option at the free throw line to dish, to dime, all those different things. And then you talk about the last two games that we’ve had, the Charlotte Hornets game where he had 11 points and 10 rebounds, and he was just 50 % from the field. And then you talk about the Miami Heat game where he had six points and seven rebounds.
Ethan Sands (10:59.502)
and he was just 42.9 % from the field. So this is why we’re having these conversations. It’s a sporadic stat line and there have been concerns from the fan base. I was scrolling on Twitter and I keep seeing like, sometimes I just type in players names into the search bar. And it was like, like the first three tweets were, I’m so done with Jarrett Allen. I can’t stand Jarrett Allen, yada, yada, yada. And I think,
I wanted to give him his credit and what we talk about. And I feel like the stats that we list in the stack stack box, and we said, add an abundance on this podcast are not always relevant when it comes to what Jarrett Allen’s impact is for this team. And Chris, you mentioned it and Jimmy as well, the screening aspect of it. And I know we’ve talked about how analytically based Kenny Atkinson is, and I feel like he gets more credit now when you talk about screen assists, hockey assist.
all these different things that Jarrett Allen is known for when it comes to this offense. Do you feel like Jarrett Allen is being like, is not getting his due diligence when it comes to what has been said around the internet world for him?
Chris (12:16.69)
Well, you used the term sporadic in terms of his production, and I think we just have to be honest about this. His production’s going to be sporadic. Especially when you’re talking about his scoring. Because Jarrett Allen gets eight shot attempts a game. Eight, statistically. So he’s fourth on the team in shot attempts, but know, Karras gets around the same number. Ty Jerome gets around the same number. George Niang is right around that number. It’s Donovan Mitchell with about 19 per game.
Darius Garland with 15 per game, Evan Mobley with 13 per game, and then some of these other guys are just going to have to find their way within the offense. And some nights they’re going to be more involved because a matchup is going to dictate that. Other nights, they’re not going to have that same level of production. And if you look at usage rate, Jarrett Allen, Jarrett Allen, his usage rate is lower than George Niang. His usage rate,
is lower than Tristan Thompson doesn’t count because Tristan hasn’t played enough. But you talk about all these different players like Jarrett has been pushed down the pecking order on the offensive end of the floor. But like they’re 21 and four. They’re they’re arguably one of the best teams in the entire NBA. They’ve got they’ve got this offense that everybody wanted the Cavs to have coming into this season.
And Jarrett’s a part of that. So it’s just like, I think the way that this team plays and the way that this team is constructed, like there’s just not as much room for gaudy stats for Jarrett if Evan has been propped up. Like part of the reason why Evan Mobley has been able to blossom and take a step forward, or some people would call it a leap forward, is because he’s given those opportunities. He’s given that platform.
That’s required at times Donovan Mitchell to take a step back throughout the course of games. That has required at times Jarrett Allen to take a step back. Like Jarrett’s not as important to Evan. I mean, if you’re talking about the future of this organization, if you’re talking about the here and now of this organization, Jarrett Allen, the importance of him is just not to the same level as Evan Mobley. Like everybody understands that, right? So his numbers aren’t going to be what Evan Mobley’s are.
Chris (14:42.886)
His opportunities aren’t going to be the same as Evan. His shot attempts, his touches, his usage rating, all that stuff is going to suffer because he’s had to make room for this other guy, this other front court dominant player to blossom in a way that so many people around this organization and so many fans of this team have wanted for the last couple of years. So somebody was going to suffer in terms of production because of that.
And I think the most logical person has been Jarrett. But I just don’t know what else people want from him or what he’s not doing that people want him to do better. Like, what do you want a guy to do when he’s getting eight shot attempts a game? What do you want a guy to do when his usage rating is right around Sam Merrill’s and lower than George Niang? Like his production is going to be sporadic as long as his impact.
Is there on a nightly basis as long as he’s doing the things that make this team an elite offense and he’s doing these things that make this team a top 10 defense. That’s really all you should care about.
Jimmy Watkins (15:52.423)
Yeah, using box score stats to try to quantify Jarrett Allen is pretty dumb for a lot of reasons. The first of which being, this man has zero, not only he’s getting eight shots a game, he pretty much has zero control over when they come, right? Like he screens, he rolls hard, he has his hands ready, maybe the ball comes, maybe it doesn’t. This is like, Jarrett Allen is not, except in rare cases where he’s got a little guy on him.
You want to exploit a mismatch. You’re not throwing the ball in the post. Like, okay, you got to, they switch to get a guard on them. Okay, sweet. Throw him a, throw him the ball, drop step dunk or quick little jump hook. He’s got, he’s gotten pretty good with both hands on the jump hooks. That’s nice, but you’re just not, you’re not running offense for this guy. It’s, mean, it’s, it’s honestly a testament to how effective he is as a roller that he had such impressive counting stats last year. And that was also a function of injuries and
opportunities being increased as a necessity last year. Jarrett Allen doesn’t really have, do you want Jarrett Allen to be quote, more aggressive? What do think that looks like? You’re not calling for the ball down low when you Evan Mobley, Darius Golden, Donovan Mitchell on the court. The other thing is, and maybe I’m just making the same point twice here, Evan Mobley, George Niang, they dribble. Even George Niang, he dribbles.
Donovan Mitchell dribbles, Darius Garland dribbles. Ty Jerome, yes, Ty Jerome is an entire entity, offensive usage rate entity that just didn’t exist last year. Now he’s one of the primary ball handlers when one of Darius or Donovan is not on the court. this big men, this has always been a thing with big men. There’s the old adage with basketball coaches that you want to get your center a touch on the first possession of the game.
Chris (17:21.906)
Sam Meryl has started to dribble a little bit this year.
Jimmy Watkins (17:48.169)
so that they’ll be more engaged, so that they’ll feel involved, right? And they’ll play harder on defense. And it has to be purposeful because again, they have no control over when they get the ball. Somebody has to give it to them. Somebody has to give Jarrett Allen the ball for him to be able to do something with it. So it’s a function of everything else. By the way, you’re shooting more threes or you’re trying to shoot more threes? Well, guess who hadn’t shoot any threes? Jarrett Allen. So again, he just doesn’t have control of this.
Chris (17:59.162)
Thank
Jimmy Watkins (18:18.063)
the other thing I would say is that while we’re praising Jarrett Allen, the one thing that has always amazed me about this guy is his ability to defend at the rim without failing. He’s also not a high block shot guy either. So he’s really just contesting a lot of shots and doing it without failing. 25 games this year, all but one, Jarrett Allen has two fouls or fewer. That is crazy. That is crazy for a guy who gets challenged at the rim as much as he does.
whose job it is on defense. The Cavs organized their entire defense around, go at Jarrett Allen. Go see if you can score on Jarrett Allen at the rim. And guys try, and he’s just elite at getting vertical and being long and not bumping anybody. It is incredible how good that guy is at that. Go ahead, Chris.
Chris (19:13.724)
And here’s the other thing too, like so many people have talked about like, it work with Jarrett and Evan together? Like Kenny Atkinson has found a way to make that work. He has found a way to silence those questions in part because Evan has evolved as a player and he looks more comfortable on the perimeter and he’s knocking down shots. And Kenny Atkinson has found different ways to space the floor.
And Jarrett Allen’s not only in the dunker spot. Jarrett Allen’s not only right around the rim. Like the spacing and where Jarrett is catching the ball and where he’s being used on the floor is very, very different. So Kenny Atkinson came in and said, I feel like these guys can work together. I can start them together. I can finish games with them together. I’m committed to doing this. And he has made it work. If you think about Jarrett and Evan together, they’ve played nearly 400 minutes.
And with them on the floor, the Cavs have an offensive rating of 122. They have a net rating. are outscoring opponents by 12.5 points per 100 possessions. So like the thing that this fan base desperately wanted Kenny Atkinson to figure out, the thing that this front office desperately wanted Kenny Atkinson to figure out, he has. The Cavs are a great team with Jarrett and Evan together. And when they’re apart,
they function in a different kind of way. In some matchups, maybe it’s going to be more beneficial to just have one of those bigs out there on the floor and it’s going to be Evan. There’s not going to be a situation where Evan’s on the bench at the end of a game situation. Like, no. Like, they’re going to have him on the floor. He’s going to finish those games because he’s more important to the here and now and to the future of this team. But when they’re together, this is one of the best basketball teams in the NBA.
And I just don’t think you can sit here and assume that they would be as successful over the long haul, over an extended period of time, if Jarrett wasn’t on this roster.
Ethan Sands (21:20.694)
And that was the next point that I was gonna get to was because I also have the the two the two line up pulled up Chris so glad we were on the same page on that one, but
Chris (21:29.586)
You’ve been working with me way too long, Get nerdy.
Ethan Sands (21:33.632)
Getting better with the stats, man. I’m getting better. But yeah, and to your point, like that that offensive number when you talk about the two man lineup of Jarrett Allen, Evan Mobley, that would be the best rated offense in the NBA if that were the team’s overall offensive ratings. Right. So talk about how efficient they’ve been. And I also think when you talk about the shot attempts and the shot numbers and all these different things when it comes to Jarrett Allen.
I think that is a testament to the spacing. Like they have more room to work. They have more area to go into. And because it’s like you talked about Chris, not having him in the dunker spot, not only having him in the way, technically containing space, filling space. Like even if he’s not shooting threes, having him on the three point line, pulling the opposing team center out of the way for
Darius Garland, Donovan Mitchell, Karis Laverne, Ty Jerome to attack the paint and get their shots that they’re most comfortable with. So yes, and like Jimmy says, it has been an uncomfortable situation for Jarrett Allen almost the entire time that he’s been on the court with the NBA, with the Cleveland Cavaliers, especially when you talk about, like you can go back to, yeah, we’re gonna put you on a team that has three bigs we’re gonna play you all together. So.
You have to relearn how to play with a three big lineup that hasn’t been done in a long time. Now we’re going to change it.
Jimmy Watkins (23:04.415)
But by the way, you would never know it. You’d never know it. He’s been in an uncomfortable spot the whole time. All he does is just chuckle and dunk on people. That’s it.
Ethan Sands (23:07.309)
You
Ethan Sands (23:12.942)
Yeah, exactly. And I just think it’s a testament to what he’s his growth and what he’s been able to do and his adaptability. But so here’s here’s the
Chris (23:24.412)
think there’s another layer to this too, and I don’t think people can ignore this. Kenny Atkinson made a decision at the beginning of the year to have the majority of Donovan Mitchell’s minutes spent with Evan Mobley as opposed to Jarrett Allen because he wanted to put that trust in Donovan. Donovan’s the leader of this team and Kenny knew that Donovan was going to empower Evan and Kenny knew that Donovan was going to make sure that Evan was involved.
in the offensive game plan and he was going to get his touches and he was going to make those sacrifices. This is not a knock on Darius. It is not. But he’s not Donovan Mitchell. He’s not. He’s not the same caliber of players Donovan. He’s not as cerebral as Donovan. He doesn’t read the game as well as Donovan. He hasn’t seen the same things that Donovan has seen. He’s not as mature on the court as Donovan is. Donovan is a higher level player.
than Darius Garland. Like would people, I wonder if people would be as critical as they’ve been about Jarrett recently if a majority of his minutes were spent with Donovan. And he looked better because he was playing alongside Donovan. And again, that’s not a knock on Darius. But if the majority of Jarrett’s minutes are going to be spent with Darius, there’s just a different level of player that he’s playing with.
There’s a different level of familiarity that he’s learning. There’s a different level of comfortability. Jarrett has always been at his best when he was playing alongside Donovan because they worked so well together. And Jarrett, he was like the Rudy Gobert for Donovan Mitchell, that kind of pick and roll partnership. And they worked so well off one another. And Kenny Atkinson decided to change that. That’s been an adjustment for Jarrett.
He’s playing with a lesser player in those minutes when Evan Mobley is on the bench. I think Evan Mobley looks better in part because he has evolved. He has changed his game. He has improved, but he also looks better because he gets to play a bulk of the minutes with Donovan Mitchell. And that’s going to make a lot of guys on the Cavs look better. And again, that’s not a knock on Darius. That is an ode to Donovan and the kind of player that he is.
Jimmy Watkins (25:49.685)
Just a different level of defensive attention shown to Donovan too, Like Darius sees traps, I think to me, when I’m thinking particularly of how it pertains to Jarrett or a big man like him, yes.
Chris (25:54.545)
Yes.
Chris (26:04.166)
Think about how many floaters Darius has gotten, like, coming off of Jarrett screens, because guys are more, like, connected to Jarrett, and they’re trying to take away the lob, and they’re trying to take away his offensive rebounds, and they’re trying to take away the pocket passes. Like, ask Darius if he likes playing alongside Jarrett.
Jimmy Watkins (26:13.417)
Yes.
Jimmy Watkins (26:21.715)
Yeah, and that I was just gonna I was gonna go there but a different way like Darius is shooting floaters down if a Mitchell gets to the freaking rim Donovan Mitchell makes you you cannot stick to your big with Donovan Mitchell in the game He’s going to force you to make a choice Darius forces make a choice to with the float like Dobbins like I’m either dunking or I’m dishing it off to Jarrett Allen He’s dunking he put it’s a different level of force. It’s he gets deeper in the paint Everything everything that Chris is saying is true
Ethan Sands (26:52.974)
And just to put some stats behind this, Because Jarrett Allen and Darius Garland, that we talked about, have been paired together, which is a change from what J.B. Biggersdalf did last season. They played 643 minutes together already this season. The team is 20 and four in those games. The offensive rating for them is 121.5. That’s really good. Like, again.
Chris (27:18.898)
Mm-hmm.
Ethan Sands (27:19.862)
top of the NBA if this would be the consistent number, right? And then you talk about Donovan and Jarrett are the next highest grouping for a two-man group that Jarrett Allen’s played with this season at 440. Their offensive rating of 115.9. There’s also a little bit interesting because when you look at the offensive rating this season, Donovan, because he’s getting off the ball so much more in all these different things, his offensive rating is a lot lower.
than people would have imagined when you talk about the star player on this team, all these different things. So that brings that down a little bit. And then on the flip end, you also have the pairing of Jarrett Allen, Evan Mobley. It’s interesting that we talk about the split minutes of these guys and how much they’ve been able to play with their guards and how this is the third most minutes for a duo for Jarrett Allen with Evan Mobley at 371.
And their offensive rating is 121.7 and defensive rating of 109.3. Chris talked about it earlier. That’s a 12.5 net rate. Like it’s really, really good. But I want to get into this uncomfortable conversation to end this podcast because I think we touched on it briefly at the beginning. The potential for this team to not have Jarrett Allen on it in the future.
Evan Mobley to grow into the center and we’ve talked about that a lot this offseason because we saw the development of what was going to be an evolution and all these different things but I and Chris you said it I don’t think Evan Mobley is ready and I also think say the Cavs get into a situation where they make it to the Eastern Conference finals or they get to a situation where they make it to the NBA finals
Would they be willing to change a dynamic in a lineup that Kenny Atkinson seemingly made work with splitting the minutes of Jarrett Allen, Evan Mobley, and using Jarrett more so in figuring out where he fits in minute wise, minute allocation wise, especially when you add in Dean Wade into those conversations as well. What do you think is going to be the telltale sign that the Cavs are getting ready or potential
Ethan Sands (29:45.602)
to move on from Jarrett Allen if it’s going to happen because I think it’s going to be a couple more years until we’re truly having this conversation.
Chris (29:55.858)
Because I think the easiest answer is who can they get back in return?
If we’re being honest about it, the most logical and the most realistic pathway for the Cavs to make a significant shakeup of this roster and a significant enhancement, if you want to call it that, bringing somebody from outside the organization is Jarrett Allen. He is the quote unquote most expendable member of the Corps for. He’s got a $20 million contract.
that matches really, really well with some of these other targets that have been rumored around the NBA that the Cavs fans have kicked around. But the question is, are the Cavs going to get to a point where the conversations that they have about Jarrett as a trade chip, what they’re getting back from the other team, they’re going to consider a step forward. They’re going to consider an upgrade as opposed to just a lateral move.
or even a step back. So to me, a lot of this is about market value of Jarrett. And I think part of the reason why the Cavs made the decision that they did this past off season, giving him the contract that they did, is one that they believe in him, two, that they had a new coach coming in with a new system and new ideas and stuff like that. But three, it’s the kind of contract that’s not going to
kill you and I think it’s the kind of contract that other teams around the NBA are still going to value. Like they’re not going to look at Jarrett as a sunk cost. They’re not going to look at Jarrett as an immovable contract. And just like other teams aren’t going to say, well, if we’re going to take that contract off of your hands, you’re going to have to toss in draft picks and young up and coming players. No teams are going to want that contract. Teams are going to consider that.
Chris (31:53.806)
a value, teams are going to consider that a potential future asset for them. So I think a lot of these things when it comes to Jarrett, a lot of these things are going to be dependent on what could they potentially get back in return. Like for you guys, would you trade Jarrett Allen in a deal involving Kyle Kuzma? Would you consider that an upgrade? Would you consider that a step forward? Okay.
Ethan Sands (32:17.108)
No. No. Uh-uh. No.
Chris (32:24.124)
So would you trade Jarrett Allen in a deal hypothetically for DeMar DeRozan, who seems to be a bad fit in its tech. Okay. So again, like we keep going through this list, Jarrett Allen in a deal that involves Andrew Wiggins. Would you consider Andrew Wiggins a step forward, a significant upgrade?
Jimmy Watkins (32:32.411)
I like the Kuzma idea better, honestly.
Ethan Sands (32:34.882)
Hahaha
Jimmy Watkins (32:46.389)
Who’s the leader in the clubhouse still? Yeah.
Chris (32:48.69)
Still, Kuzma? Alright, we keep going through this. Jeremy Grant.
Jimmy Watkins (32:55.189)
I don’t like the contract. I don’t like the contract.
Chris (32:57.99)
Contract is long and it increases as it goes on.
Jimmy Watkins (33:01.813)
Yeah, that’s a rough one.
Chris (33:04.134)
But like that’s the kind of contract that the Cavs would have to use unless they brought a third team or a fourth team involved just to get close to that number of Jeremy Grant of 29 million. Deandre Hunter.
Ethan Sands (33:20.098)
Yeah, that’s the biggest thing for me. Yeah.
Jimmy Watkins (33:20.797)
Yeah, it’s more age timeline. I like the age timeline. Fit there better.
Chris (33:25.83)
that you would consider him an upgrade over Jarrett or an upgrade for this team. We’ll put it that way.
Jimmy Watkins (33:28.659)
I’m-
Ethan Sands (33:28.96)
Upgrade is not the word I would use.
Jimmy Watkins (33:32.414)
I’m, this idea of getting a wing that fits the timeline I like.
Ethan Sands (33:32.95)
Yes.
Ethan Sands (33:37.752)
that and like I like I agree with Jimmy the age thing is probably the biggest thing because what we like about this core for so much is The eight the oldest player is Donovan Mitchell at 28. Everybody else is 26 and younger, right?
Chris (33:55.334)
Yeah, mean, I think that’s, that’s something that the Cavs are going to consider. That’s something that they have weighed. But I just think this idea that the Cavs are hanging on to Jarrett because they’re so committed to this too big thing. Yeah, that’s part of it, but they’re also hanging on to Jarrett because they’re just like, isn’t that obvious guy out there that the Cavs consider a significant upgrade? Like this idea that he’s an untouchable member of the core four. No.
That’s not it. But what they get back, they would have to consider an upgrade. And I think the other thing is, like the minute that they make the decision to move on from Jarrett, if they do make that decision, it changes their playing style at both ends of the floor. It changes their look at both ends of the floor. And that’s a pretty significant shake up. And I don’t think that that’s one that you do during the season.
I think that move is more logical and it gives the Cavs more time to reassess some stuff when you get into the off season. But to do that during the season just because he has the contract that you can move before the trade deadline, I just think that’s too many moving parts. I think that’s too many internal changes. And I think that’s too much of a dent into a team that has already proven to be.
not a fluke and one of the best teams in the NBA. I just don’t think they need to do that at the trade deadline.
Jimmy Watkins (35:28.669)
Yeah, to me, is a big picture conversation. It’s like a salary cap conversation, honestly, because this is a team with four players with pretty pricey extensions. And at some point, then the new NBA, you have to, you know, kind of pick a lane here. We’ve seen Denver Nuggets, we referenced after they referenced Bruce Brown and Katavius Caldwell-Pope, key role players that are not on that team anymore because of
financial constraints. Dan Gilbert has proven time and time again in the past that if you’re showing me the evidence that you can contend, I’ll spend that money. But it’s just like the new salary cap rules force you to make decisions sooner and they force you to, it just makes sense to me that if the calves ever decided that it’s getting a little stale here or we want to free up some room for a wing.
Like Jarrett is just like to Chris point, he’s, he’s the most obvious candidate. has a pretty duplicated skill set with what Evan does. And not on the, on the backside of that Jarrett Allen is one of, he might be the best pure rim running center in the league, but there are other guys who have, who can do, I don’t know, 60, 65, 70 % of what Jarrett Allen does.
in a bench big role on a bench big contract. And that’s everything that if you want to say that Darius and Donovan kind of have similar skill sets to all hear you out. It’s much harder to find your Darius Garland replacement than it is to find your Jarrett Allen replacement. Like that’s it’s you can Jarrett Allen you can exchange him for you know the two way wing of your dreams whoever that may be.
Chris (37:02.458)
Mm-hmm.
Jimmy Watkins (37:28.435)
I don’t think we found him yet on this pod, but we can keep searching, we keep dreaming, you keep looking. And then you can still get, you know, three fifths Jarrett Allen somewhere else on the bargain bin for like the MLE. That works. I can make that work in my head. don’t, again, maybe that guy also isn’t as equipped to play with Evan Mobley all the time, but you can.
Chris (37:41.893)
Right.
Jimmy Watkins (37:57.545)
You can squint and see Jarrett Allen with some of the backup centers in this league. I just think it comes down to financial realities. Maybe the impetus for this particular episode was Jarrett Allen’s box score looks a little funky recently, but I promise you the Cavs don’t care about that. I promise you Jarrett Allen doesn’t care about that. And that’s one of the Cavs’ favorite things about Jarrett Allen is that he doesn’t care about that.
The Cavs, this is a much bigger picture conversation, which again, has a lot to do as it has the last couple of years, how they do in the playoffs, how these two big lineups in particular perform in the playoffs. The Cavs can make a very nice playoff run this year. Easter conference finals, NBA finals, what have you, and still come to the conclusion that you know what? Maybe the idealized version of this team is Evan at the five by himself next year. That’s a realm of possibility.
Chris (38:57.348)
I know so many people right now are listening to the podcast and they’re saying, Chris, Chris, you didn’t bring up Cam Johnson. What the heck? That should be the number one target for the Cavs. And he would be the number one target for the Cavs. And his salary does match right around the number of Jarrett Allen. But Brooklyn also has Nick Claxton, who is basically low calorie Jarrett Allen. And like, there’s no guarantee that Brooklyn even wants to move Cam Johnson.
Brooklyn might say, we have this valuable commodity everybody around the NBA wants him. And you know who else wants him? We freaking do. Because we demanded him from the Phoenix Suns when we traded Kevin freaking Durant, future Hall of Famer Kevin Durant. So like, he was one of the centerpieces of the Kevin Durant deal. And just because Brooklyn decided to move on from McHale Bridges, because they got a Godfather offer.
that nobody in their right mind was going to turn down for McHale Bridges. It doesn’t mean that they’re willing to move on from Cam Johnson. And if they are willing to move on from Cam Johnson, they’re probably going to want an offer very similar to the one that they got for McHale Bridges. And I don’t know that the Cavs are equipped to give them that offer. In fact, I would say that the Cavs are not equipped to give them that offer. There are other teams around the NBA that have young up and coming players that are expendable.
that have a bunch of draft capital into the future. But I don’t think that Brooklyn is saying, hey, we’ve got Nick Claxton already on this roster. like, is such an upgrade over him that we’re going to part with Cam Johnson. So I think Cam Johnson is a logical fit for the Cavs. He can shoot, he can pass, he can dribble, he can play make, he can space the floor, he can rebound better than what he has shown in the past.
he is a dream target for the Cavs and the Cavs have liked him since he came into the NBA draft. And if there’s any kind of conversation happening around the NBA involving cam Johnson, I can promise you about his availability at the trade deadline. can promise you that the Cavs are going to be involved with that. But I also don’t think they’re going to win that because the other team has to say yes to a deal too. And I don’t think that Brooklyn is saying.
Chris (41:20.292)
Yes to a deal that is Jarrett Allen as the centerpiece of a Cam Johnson deal. If it’s an unprotected pick in the first round, if it’s multiple first round picks, if it’s three first round picks, and like a young player on a team friendly rookie contract, if that’s the centerpiece of a Cam Johnson deal, then I think Brooklyn is more willing to listen. But Jarrett Allen at this stage of his career as the centerpiece for Cam Johnson? I don’t see that.
Jimmy Watkins (41:26.922)
Do it.
Jimmy Watkins (41:50.889)
The other thing from Brooklyn’s perspective, you get Cooper Flag or one of these Rutgers dudes, like you’re on the clock now, okay? Like you better start, you better be able to picture what your winning version of that core looks like pretty quickly. And you know what you need? And no matter who you get in one of those structures, you need to do it exactly like Cam Johnson. It’s, know, we can laugh at how much McKell Bridges went for.
Chris (42:00.028)
from these are better.
Jimmy Watkins (42:20.321)
against in the next trade and we can I would I’m raising my eyebrow at anybody who offers anything close to that for cam Johnson like one first two firsts Okay. Yeah, that makes sense. That’s a premium position three and D. I don’t think that cam Johnson is Yeah, yeah, he’s not the defender that Mikael Britches was at his peak neither is Mikael Britches anymore, but that’s a conversation for another day, but still that that
Chris (42:39.782)
Break out year.
Jimmy Watkins (42:49.229)
That checks a very important box on any championship team. The Nets are also very soon going to be, if they hit on this draft pick, it’s supposed to be the draft class of the century again this year after kind of a quiet year. Like you’re gonna need these guys. You’re gonna need guys like Cam Johnson. And the Nets have gone about these rebuilds in unorthodox, like when Kenny was there, they weren’t just shipping guys off. Like they made the playoffs. They backed into the playoffs with the team.
full of Cam Johnsons, you know what I mean? they might look at that a little bit differently. Now if Cam Johnson, promise you this, if Cam Johnson starts getting in the way of the Cooper flag and some Rutgers dudes race, see you later Cam Johnson. We’ll take whoever has the most first round picks for you. You’re going there. I don’t know who it is, but maybe it’s Oklahoma City, maybe it’s Houston, something like that. You’ll be on the first flight out. can’t play too well, Cam Johnson. That’s the tricky thing.
Or maybe Cam Johnson probably wants to get out of there. Keep shooting, Cam. Keep shooting. But that’s the other thing. Brooklyn just has, is in a unique position.
Ethan Sands (43:57.664)
I, yeah, and to wrap this up, I think Jarrett Allen is a piece that the Cavs treasure, right? Like he was a guy that Kobe Altman went and got in kind of in a steel deal that kind of was a linchpin in what the Cavs have been able to do when you talk about the two bigs in the front court and how he’s been able to help Evan Mobley in his development. And I don’t think that goes unnoticed around the Cavs organization because
We talk about him getting the new contract this summer, Donovan Mitchell vouching for that to happen. All these different things throughout the chemistry and camaraderie of this team that we talk about and an abundance on this podcast. And Jarrett Allen is a piece. We talk about how candid he did. He is in interviews. We talk about how he doesn’t care about a lot of things that go on around him. Sometimes not looking at the schedule and who they’re about to play one to two days before the team arrives. Right. So I think it’s important for
cast fans to recognize what value Jarrett Allen has for this team. And obviously also account for the fact that what he brings may not show up in the box score and may, you mean, you may need to look a little bit deeper to see his impact if you are one of the people that is questioning what he’s already been able to do as a double double machine this year.
Jimmy Watkins (45:20.693)
Real quick though, go ahead. I was gonna say, this ain’t spreadsheet ball. Like the Cavs love Jarrett Allen. Love every, like particularly the core four guys. Donovan, it was a huge deal in the off season when Donovan posted Jarrett on his Instagram story amid the trade rumors. Like that is not nothing. Kenny and especially like when the other day when someone asked, you know, Kenny, what’s the defining characteristic of this team or something, he says chemistry and that like,
Chris (45:20.964)
We also have to say this. Go ahead.
Chris (45:25.884)
Yeah. That’s right.
Jimmy Watkins (45:50.355)
I know every coach says chemistry, like Kenny believes that in his soul. Like he would just came from Golden State where they believe it in their soul. Kenny has always believed that. And I think the Golden State, particularly the 2022 Golden State run where it was really like Andrew, Andrew Wiggins had an outer body experience. Steph is one of the 10 greatest players of all time and just good vibes. They won a fricking championship on that. Like that, I’m sure that only emboldened him even further.
in what he already believes about basketball, which is already kind of like, you know, they say football is the ultimate team sport, at like their basketball locker rooms, in part because there are fewer people in them, really tight, when it’s going well, really tight knit groups. it, and it legitimately can, and this is not lip service. It can disrupt the balance of a team. If you trade a, obviously Jarrett Allen’s a good player, but a player that everyone likes, like mood matters in this sport. It’s kind of weird, but it’s true.
Chris (46:50.406)
The Cavs aren’t at a point either guys, where Jarrett is preventing something. Right? Like he’s not preventing Evan Mobley from blossoming or becoming this all-star. Like Evan’s in the conversation as an all-star this year. It’s not hindering the development of Evan Mobley playing alongside another big like Jarrett, because the Cavs are a great team with both those guys on the floor and Jarrett has helped Evan and Evan has found a way.
to become this, this version where he had a career high the other day, where he’s more involved in the offense. Like that is all happening even with Jarrett on the roster, even with Jarrett on the floor. So if it got to a point where the Cavs looked at this situation and said, well, Jarrett is a detriment to our success or Jarrett is preventing us from going where we want to go, or he’s preventing Evan Mobley from reaching his potential.
Or he’s a detriment. Then it’s a different conversation. But we’re not there. Jarrett Allen is enhancing the Cavs chances of winning. Jarrett Allen is a key piece of them being 21 and four right now. The best team in the NBA, the best team in the Eastern Conference, the second best offense in the NBA, a top 10 defense in the NBA.
Like all of the things that the Cavs want to be and all of the goals that they have in mind, Jarrett is a part of that and he has shown that he can be a part of that. So he’s not standing in the way of success individually or from a team standpoint. He’s not standing in the way of the Cavs going out and trading for this mythical wing, this mythical two-way wing that is significantly better than Max Streus. Like that’s not happening either.
You know what I mean? So it’s just like, when you have a good thing going and you are a great championship level team, you aren’t in a situation where you have to do anything or you’re desperate to make any kind of move. The Cavs are looking at this situation saying, why should we split these two guys up? Why should we move on from Jarrett? What’s the benefit of that? What do we gain from doing that? And if they felt like the gains...
Chris (49:14.204)
were going to outweigh, then they would consider it.
Jimmy Watkins
Can I just say one thing though to Chris’s point that he was making there? I know a lot of like a lot of fans see this.
Jimmy Watkins (49:57.715)
Okay, a lot of fans see this as year three of the core four. The Cavs see this as year one of Kenny in the core four. I’m telling you that right now. And by the way, it’s going pretty well. It’s going pretty well. The other, the playoff data points that existed under J.B., we’ll check back in on those. Cause if those trends persist in the playoffs, that the Cavs offense continues to drag across the bottom of the playoff.
Chris (50:08.077)
Mm-hmm.
Chris (50:20.178)
Mm.
Jimmy Watkins (50:26.847)
field again, okay, let’s have a conversation. But right now, it’s going pretty well. What Kenny is doing is working, and maybe it’ll work better in the playoffs too, who knows?
Ethan Sands (50:39.4)
And to piggyback on what Chris was going into, like, and what I said earlier into the podcast, basically in the middle, like if the Cavs make it to the Eastern Conference Finals and NBA Finals, like their mindset might just be we’re one change, one game away from
making a difference when it comes to this team. It doesn’t necessarily have to be a change in the roster or in the rotation or anything like that. And like Jimmy says, like, this is a group that is built on what they have. And like Chris said as well, like, they are built around having Jarrett Allen and Evan Mobley on the court. That’s how they finish games. That’s how they continue to get to where they want to go.
And if it’s year one with Kenny Atkinson and they are able to have the success of in the playoffs and all those different things, that changes the trajectory of the conversations that we’re having. Because as Chris mentioned, the move away from Jarrett Allen would more importantly be an off season move because they would have to reevaluate and change things. And it would be a dismantling of something that they’ve worked on.
at this point three years in. So, and more with Jarrett Allen being by himself or with Evan Mobley alone, along without Donovan Mitchell as a part of this court. So I think, right.
Chris (52:07.73)
He’s also averaging a double-double while shooting, think, the best field goal percentage in the NBA, second best?
Jimmy Watkins (52:13.097)
Yes, six, this career, yeah I don’t know about the NBA, 68.3%, good, very good. Jarrett Allen puts the ball in the air, it’s probably going in.
Ethan Sands (52:13.856)
Of his career of his career. Yep
Chris (52:21.074)
Double double.
Ethan Sands (52:29.208)
So yeah, like we said, box score stuff, not as important when it comes to the impact of Jarrett Allen. We talked a lot about how he’s been able to help this team get to where they are. And also not to mention the fact that Kenny Atkinson told Jarrett when he was in Brooklyn that he could have his jersey up in the rafters. Like that’s also a coach that is backing him.
Chris (52:48.146)
Hahaha.
Jimmy Watkins (52:51.797)
Which by the way, if they trade for Cam Johnson, come on, come on. Kenny’s in the take business. I see you Kenny.
Ethan Sands (52:55.198)
my God, could still happen, could still happen.
He said, you’re not slick.
Chris (53:03.314)
That’s the thing, if somebody can give me a two-way wing that they consider a significant upgrade, somebody that would be better for this team than Max Struce in the starting lineup, and it takes Jarrett Allen, I’m all ears. I will listen to that, but I just don’t think it’s as easy as some people want to believe that it is. Like, forget Brandon Ingram, no, he doesn’t fit here. So if you’re going to that next level, like,
Norman Powell, DeAndre Hunter who we’ve discussed, Bogdan Bogdanovich, who we’ve discussed in the past. Like again, if you have that guy out there that you think would be a great fit on this Cavs team and would be an upgrade and would give them a better chance against the Boston Celtics, I’ll listen. I’ll listen.
Jimmy Watkins (53:49.727)
The Herb Jones.
Herb Jones? I don’t know. I like Herb Jones. Great defensive player. Great defensive player. Improving three point stroke. I know. I like Herb Jones.
Ethan Sands (53:57.368)
Get out of here. Get out of here. Get out of here. my goodness. Conversation for another day, gentlemen. We’re getting out of here. my goodness. Trey Murphy the third.
Chris (54:06.866)
Trey Murphy.
Jimmy Watkins (54:09.781)
Trey Murphy I’m in on. I don’t think the Pelicans should trade Trey Murphy, but I’m in on Trey Murphy.
Chris (54:11.386)
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I don’t think, I don’t think he’s somebody that they’re looking to trade, but that’s a conversation that I’ll have.
Jimmy Watkins (54:21.343)
Definitely pick at the Pelicans carcass. They’ve never seen this mass of injuries. They might be in the Cooper flag business slash Rutgers dudes business and you might be able to get something from them for it.
Ethan Sands (54:21.496)
to.
Ethan Sands (54:33.358)
You
Chris (54:36.028)
I don’t know if there’s a might involved in that one, Jimmy. I mean, my goodness.
Jimmy Watkins (54:37.961)
Well, yeah, they are. by the way, because they have some injuries, they might not have to trade anybody to get there.
Ethan Sands (54:45.102)
Okay, and just to clean up what Chris was saying earlier about Jarrett Allen’s field goal percentage of players who have played at least 20 games this year and are averaging 20 minutes per game Jarrett Allen is the second in the NBA in field goal percentage behind only Daniel Gaffer who’s shooting an astounding 73.2 % Jarrett Allen is shooting 68.3 % from the field, but Okay, all right
Jimmy Watkins (55:10.411)
Daniel Gafford future Jarrett Allen? Your Jarrett Allen replacement?
Chris (55:12.956)
Yeah.
Ethan Sands (55:14.498)
Thank you, Jimmy. That’s where we’ll wrap up today’s podcast for listeners that want to contribute to a survey about the podcast where you can give your feedback.
Chris (55:20.412)
Jarrett is from Texas.
Ethan Sands (55:25.706)
Go to https://tinyurl.com/WGPod. That’s https://tinyurl.com/WGPod. And that will wrap up today’s episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. But remember to become a Cavs Insider and interact with Chris, me and Jimmy by subscribing to Subtext. This is where you can send in your questions for this week’s episode of Hey Chris. It will be coming to you shortly. So.
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Y’all be safe. We out.