CLEVELAND, Ohio — It’s time for this week’s edition of the Terry’s Talkin’ podcast, featuring cleveland.com columnist Terry Pluto and host David Campbell. On this week’s pod, we open with the Cavs, and how Evan Mobley was taking his game to another level before hurting his ankle on Sunday.
We break down the 3-10 Browns, and how we think Kevin Stefanski is feeling about where things stand, and why Jameis Winston should keep playing games to finish out the season.
We also talk some Guardians, and their recent signing of veteran starter Shane Bieber. This podcast was taped before reports broke Tuesday evening that Cleveland was trading second baseman Andrés Giménez to Toronto.
What was your favorite Cleveland sports moment of 2024? And what are your Cleveland sports predictions for 2025? Send them in via email to us at sports@cleveland.com and put “Terry’s Talkin’” in the subject line, and we’ll feature the best responses in an upcoming podcast.
Highlights:
Don’t forget: Email us your favorite 2024 Cleveland sports moments, and your Cleveland sports predictions for 2025. Send them to sports@cleveland.com;
The Cavs are 21-4 and on pace to potentially surpass their best season record (66-16 in 2008-09) with 68-69 wins;
Will casual Cleveland shift their focus to the Cavs? They should;
Evan Mobley is taking off. Here’s what Terry is seeing;
Donovan Mitchell’s numbers are down, and that’s good;
How is Kevin Stefanski dealing with this 3-10 season;
Jameis Winston: A listener asks if he brings back memories of former Browns QB Vinny Testaverde;
Shane Bieber’s new Guardians contract -- the right move for both sides?
A follow-up on postseason shares for the Guardians and other teams
Some listener emails on our discussion last week about the OSU vs. Michigan game, and whether the college pass-interference penalty should become a spot foul, like the NFL, instead of just 15 yards.
Here’s the podcast for this week:
If the player above doesn’t work, you can listen to this week’s podcast here.
If you have a question or a topic you’d like to see included on the podcast, email it to sports@cleveland.com, and put “Terry’s Talkin’” in the subject line.
You can find previous podcasts below. The transcript below was generated by a computer, and so it contains many spelling and grammar errors.
David Campbell (02:33.525)
It’s time for this week’s Terry’s Talking podcast with Plain Dealer columnist, cleveland.com columnist Terry Pluto and I’m your host David Campbell. How you doing Terry? You recovered from your trip to Pittsburgh.
Terry Pluto (02:55.35)
I’m WellDavid.
Yes, I did. So it’s always an interesting thing for me, at least driving around downtown Pittsburgh finding where they thank God that there’s immediate a lot to park in, but they hide it. They tuck it away in corners with construction and one way streets.
David Campbell (03:15.397)
And all the bridges make it fun too, right? all the...
Terry Pluto (03:17.236)
Yeah, they do. Yeah, I always get on the wrong, going the other way. I wanted to give myself a lot of time, but I love watching games at that place. I really do. The press box from press by view is really good and it’s a live atmosphere. It’s loud. It’s fun.
David Campbell (03:30.473)
Yeah, there’s good tailgating scene there in the whole bit. It’s a good place to see a game. Yeah.
Terry Pluto (03:32.8)
Yeah, it is. Yeah. You know, there’s certain cities you go to, whether you like the opponent or not. I mean, Baltimore is another one, but it’s alive. I mean, it’s a football town. Kansas city is great. Obviously green Bay is legendary. I’m sure I’m missing some, but those Midwestern, towns that it there is just tremendous. love it.
David Campbell (03:56.085)
Good, good. Well, glad you’re back and able to get a little bit of downtime after the game Sunday. I do want to mention up top, we are taping this on Tuesday the 10th in the afternoon. We’re going to shoot to have a podcast next week, the 17th, and then we’re going to take off for Christmas Eve. And then I was thinking, and we’ve been mentioning this on the podcast on the 31st or that week, we’ll do the predictions maybe. We’ve been inviting listeners to email in.
Terry Pluto (04:00.727)
Mm-hmm.
David Campbell (04:21.385)
their favorite sports moments of 2024 and their Cleveland sports predictions for 2025. So we’ll try and do that last podcast of the year before we head into 2025. And also we’ve been getting some good emails of funeral stories of sports related funeral stories of people paying tribute through their sports fandom. So send all that to sports. That’s right.
Terry Pluto (04:36.585)
well there we are,
Terry Pluto (04:42.538)
of all the podcasts in the world, only here in the same calendar year will you get foul ball stories followed by funeral stories.
David Campbell (04:50.953)
We have the funeral, the Cleveland Sports Funeral Market stories covered and cornered on the market. So they can all come to sports at cleveland.com. Just put Terry’s talking in the subject line and we will get into it. So, all right, let’s start with the calves, Terry.
Terry Pluto (04:54.265)
Mm-hmm.
Terry Pluto (05:06.008)
Mm-hmm.
David Campbell (05:08.021)
21 and four. And I was doing some math earlier today. I think they are on pace to win 68 or 69 games right now. The franchise record for wins is 66 and 16. So right now they’re still on pace even though they had a hard time in Miami. Take the temperature of Cleveland sports fans for me, Terry. Do you think Cleveland fans are engaged right now with this team in a big way?
Terry Pluto (05:16.28)
Mm-hmm.
David Campbell (05:35.157)
or not so much because it’s Brown season or how are you feeling about the way this team is being kind of consumed by the fans and enjoyed by the fans right now?
Terry Pluto (05:44.024)
Well, the hardcore, the big Cavs fans, mean, they’re loving it. They’re, all into it and they can’t get in, read enough, talk enough about it. But like when I’m at the health club or at the, you know, the shopping center or whatever, people come up to me and 80 % of the time they’re, what about the Browns? What are they going to do about the Brown? This, and finally, I’ve just started telling people last week or two, why don’t you just watch the Cavs for a while? Nobody’s getting fired. Nobody’s getting traded. They’re not making any of the big moves you want to talk about.
Now during the football season, meanwhile, all the cows have been doing is winning and it’s, and they are a fun, likable team, not just simply because they’re women. I think that the players, it’s a great group to Kobe Altman put together and the decision to bring any Atkinson in who had the grand plan of I could make this all work or at least I want to try, look super right now.
David Campbell (06:45.369)
And we should talk about Evan Mobley, Terry, because we’ve been reading for the, ever since the Cavs drafted him about the potential, the potential, the potential. And it’s starting to happen right now. I was just looking at his last five games. Of course he hurt the ankle and he didn’t play much in Miami. But before that, Boston 10 rebounds, nine points. Washington 10 rebounds, 19 points. Denver nine rebounds, 20 points.
Terry Pluto (06:47.64)
Yeah.
Terry Pluto (06:52.803)
Mm-hmm.
David Campbell (07:14.965)
Charlotte 10 rebounds, 41 points. We’re starting to see not just the numbers, but the way he’s getting those numbers. this what you thought could happen at this point of the season? And is it happening the way you thought it might happen?
Terry Pluto (07:18.968)
Mm-hmm.
Terry Pluto (07:31.892)
I was not in the camp that Mobley could become this 20 point score or whatever. I was more, I thought he would be a really good defensive player, know, a 15 to 18 point guy getting double figures and rebounds elite defensively. Which by the way, that could be an all star too. What I just described. And now I, even early in the season, just watching it, for example, the foul line.
his release and everything was different. And even though last year he shot fairly well from three point range, I think it was like 34 or 35%. I just still didn’t see that he could really become a pretty good outside shooter. I wasn’t buying it. Now you look at it and you know, he’s shooting 40 % on three, 55 % from the field. So that is big time.
David Campbell (08:25.151)
What looks different about his release, Terry? I know you get into the mechanics of shooting everything, but what looks different about his release?
Terry Pluto (08:29.389)
It’s on the, it’s not, it’s on the, it’s on the fingertips. Oftentimes it seemed like it was slipping, come off the palm of his palm of his hand. That’s there’s some other stuff that I’m sure that, basketball coaches listening to this would be able to break down. But to me, that’s the big thing. And he, think he keeps his left hand in the same spot all the time. Cause sometimes that’s what happens. Like a player goes to shoot it is offhand. In other words, he’s right handed. That’s the thing that guys, the ball, but it’s the left hand that holds it.
in the right position. I mean, I was always a lousy outside shooter and that was part of the reason I couldn’t get my left hand and the left hand in the right place to help the right hand shoot. So, then again, I remember, I remember there was a play Chris Shackleford played for the nets or whatever. And they asked them about, you know, sometimes you shoot with the right hand and sometimes you shoot with the left hand. said, of course I’m amphibious.
David Campbell (09:24.795)
That’s right, he’s good on land and water.
Terry Pluto (09:26.158)
Yeah, I guess I was just amphibious shooting with flippers or something But this guy’s not amphibious and meantime, you know the defense remains there he’s From the moment he came into the league. He was so well schooled in basketball by and I’m sure it’s his father Because his younger brother who’s in the G League now? Just doesn’t have Evans talent or size, but it was the same way he sets greens and
blocks out and gets rebounds and all the stuff that you want from a player sees the game the right way. mean, Mobley is, that’s why I think the Caz are just so enamored to him too once they had him. Like he’s just, he’s like no maintenance as a player. Forget woe maintenance, he’s no maintenance. I mean, he’s a young guy, had a lot come his way and you could never tell. mean, he acts like he’s been in the league for 10 years.
David Campbell (10:23.905)
And your points about his shooting motion, that makes me think of low maintenance too, because I mean, you’ve been out at the Cavs facility, Terry. mean, they have stuff mounted on the walls there that can tell you like your shot is coming off your hand at 42 degrees and it needs to be 45 or whatever. And they can measure the trajectory and I’m pretty sure the rotation of every shot you take. And if Evan Mobley is taking all the variables out of his shooting motion.
Terry Pluto (10:26.766)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Terry Pluto (10:41.442)
Mm-hmm.
Terry Pluto (10:46.851)
Mm-hmm.
David Campbell (10:53.503)
then the results are going to be more predictable every time. like not having to, having to low maintain or not maintain that shooting action because he’s done it so much. And if he’s got it where he’s really comfortable in seeing results with it, that’s going to just, his shooting percentage is going to stay where it is if not get better because of that consistency.
Terry Pluto (10:53.613)
Mm-hmm.
Terry Pluto (11:13.946)
Also be so tall so tall and so long if he Realizes that that most of time there’s no reason that rushes jumper who’s gonna block it So if you know if you have a little bit of room to shoot just go up and shoot your normal shot if they do go up and try to get it on either probably gonna follow you or They’re just not they’re go off to the side. So you don’t have to worry about that. You know, it’s not like
You know, Garland or some of these other guys where you could tell when you’re smaller, sometimes you just have to rush to get that shot off. Cause you know, you’re six foot one, the six foot six guys coming at you. I don’t know when mobile is going to be guarded by anybody who’s taller than him when he’s on the perimeter. Cause most of the time there’s a switch off and, so yeah, that’s exciting to see just for his own confidence. So I could go out and get 41. Not that you.
Want that all the time, but that he can. And also that the teammates will see that. And cause this is a guard dominant team in terms of the ball where it is. And when they see that, they’re more willing to really, the coaches could talk about, let’s create opportunities for Evan and that, but the players will look at, he taking advantage of the opportunities to score? If not, I want my shot.
David Campbell (12:38.473)
Yeah, I’m glad you brought that up, Terry. The Cavs kind of are at the quarter point of the season, right? And it’s, good to take a snapshot, but so their best player, Donovan Mitchell, like basketball is a little different because there’s only one ball. And if one guy takes a shot, that means somebody else isn’t taking it. if Evan Mobley and, and these other guys are getting more usage, that means Donovan Mitchell isn’t. I was kind of interested in like, again, a snapshot of a quarter away through the season.
Terry Pluto (12:44.312)
Mm-hmm.
Terry Pluto (12:51.403)
Mm-hmm.
Correct.
Terry Pluto (13:06.552)
Mm-hmm.
David Campbell (13:07.251)
Looking at some of Donovan Mitchell’s per game numbers and there’s we’ve been tracking kind of as minutes so far, but there’s some other things I thought were kind of interesting too that I thought I would throw out. And then I wanted to kind of get your impressions of is Donovan Mitchell playing the right way, thinking about things the right way and producing the right way to get this team where it needs to go. But so 31.9 minutes per game this season. That is a career low, which I thought was interesting. His field goal attempts per game.
Terry Pluto (13:12.92)
Yep.
Terry Pluto (13:33.496)
Mm-hmm.
David Campbell (13:36.213)
are at 18.8. That’s the lowest he’s had since his rookie year in Utah when he had 17.2. So he’s only putting up 18.8 shots per game. His three point attempts per game are at 9.1. Yeah, last year, well, the last few years he’s been over nine, nine or above. But if you compare that to back in Utah, he never was, he was 7.0, 6.7, 6.9, 8.7. And you’re right, Terry, ever since he came here, it’s been nine or above. So.
Terry Pluto (13:49.762)
That’s up.
Terry Pluto (13:54.167)
Yeah.
Terry Pluto (14:01.792)
Yeah, that’s what I meant. Yeah, and they want them to get them over 10, actually.
David Campbell (14:07.071)
Yep, and his two point attempts per game are at 9.7 and he’s never been below 10 in his entire career. So this is kind of what happens when you have your star player trying to keep everybody else engaged, make sure they’re producing. Do you like the way this is working a quarter of the way through the season with Donovan Mitchell and how he’s deferring a little bit and letting these guys have their moments and produce?
Terry Pluto (14:33.514)
Absolutely, because I mean year ago I was enamored when the ball was in his hands and he was running everything. That was when Garland was hurt and Mobley and that’s that player is still there if that’s needed and we’ve seen sometimes he’ll just take over a quarter. But the big thing you want to do because he you know, he is a physical driver. He goes in there and he could get to the rim. I remember Mike Fratell told me when they tried to for him he goes because I just hadn’t seen a lot of it. I saw the numbers.
He said, Terry, you’re going to love the guy. He gets to the rim anytime he wants. He’s got a strong lower body along with the ability to really almost jump out of the gym. And you’ll just see, but it’s a physical style of play. So as he gets older, if he can make more jumpers along with making the analytics people happy, it also will take some stress off the ball off his body. So you have him at 32 minutes, basically mobile at 31 Garland at 30 Allen at 30 and
Who’s fifth in the minutes? I would have guessed for, Caris Laverte. Caris Laverte, who is shooting at what on three? This would maybe be the most incredible stat of the season.
David Campbell (15:32.725)
Kyrus Loverd? okay, I was right.
David Campbell (15:43.605)
Terry Pluto (15:45.134)
Nothing 49 49 and he’s playing 24 minutes a game The evolution of Laverte I think the last two years is really admirable because this is a guy who got into the league by Instant offense going to the rim. You know, he improved his jump shot over the years
David Campbell (15:47.335)
That was way off.
Terry Pluto (16:11.63)
But scoring, if I’m going to play 22 minutes, I’m going to get a bunch of shots and try to get 18 points. That’s how can get time. And he was wired that way. And there were players in the NBA that play a long time doing that. But he now, he started last year where he was really handling the ball and his passing. This was a revelation to me last year and his defense, you know, he can go at people. He’s got real long arms and he is very unselfish. And this goes back.
to, we probably have mentioned this in the podcast before, but I’ll say it again. When he signed, I forgot what his contract is, something like two years. It’s like 18 million a year or something, which, you know, sounds like really high through the real world, but we’re not talking about the real world. The NBA, we’re talking about the NBA where the average player almost makes 12 million a year for two years. And a friend of mine was a top NBA agent said, Kairos most of actually, you always hear these guys that, you know, I really just wanted to play there and,
I didn’t really look at other teams. goes, Keris must have really have done that. goes, I could have got him a longer contract somewhere else. And he didn’t mean there. just meant you hear players say that stuff and then they go and they signed for somewhere else for, you know, a ton of money. But you said this guy, he wanted to be part of it because he took a shorter contract for less money and to fit in at a place where he knows he’s not going to start.
David Campbell (17:35.743)
Well, part of that, Terry, I think when you’re a free agent in the NBA, you don’t get to look at every team in the league, really. You have to ask yourself, where am I going to be miserable going to work every day? Like there are some teams that guys would never want to play for because it’s just drudgery and you know you’re never going to win. And you’re right, Keras Levert, the deal he took reflects, I think, what the Cavs have going. And he wants to, he wanted to be part of it, which speaks to the organization.
Terry Pluto (17:42.434)
No.
Terry Pluto (17:46.94)
Mm-hmm.
Terry Pluto (17:58.05)
And and that, and that was, he came back with JB, cause he liked JB. Cause I think now he had bounced from Indiana to, I think it came in with the nets with Kenny, Kenny Atkinson course. He loved Kenny. Then Kenny got fired and that came to the Durant Irving show and they went through a bunch of stuff there. And I remember Caris also had the big heart problem, which was detected. And I believe he was treated at Cleveland clinic.
And so that Cleveland always had a soft spot even before he got here. So, Keris Lever shooting 49%. There’s been a lot of incredible things, but to me, because we are a quarter, we’re 100, or excuse me, 25 games into an 82 game season. And he’s been terrific. know, Garland just goes right along with his scoring his 20 points and he does not seem to be showing.
Any problems? You know, I have to admit I cringe every time it even looks like he got hit in the face. You know, well, you know, some of these. Rip Hamilton from Detroit when there he was a tall, thin guard a little like. Little like Garland and how he was built. He played differently. He didn’t shoot a lot of threes. He ran a lot off picks and he’s one of the best running creating shots off the ball.
David Campbell (19:01.397)
my gosh. They need to get him like a space helmet. I’ve never seen anybody like that get hit in the head that much.
Terry Pluto (19:24.532)
And he kept getting hit in the face. Finally, he just gave up and wore a mask. He did. And he just said, I can’t, you if I want to play, I just can’t deal with the broken noses, the busted jaws. And, and, but I haven’t seen too many other guys wear a mask for very long because it gets so hot and sweaty and steamed up. And, so that’s probably more than anybody wants to know about mask, but there you go. All right. Here’s one, by the way, here’s a surprise to me.
David Campbell (19:46.229)
All right, Terry. All right.
Terry Pluto (19:55.074)
The number one NBA team in terms of offensive efficiency is who?
David Campbell (20:08.021)
Oklahoma City.
Terry Pluto (20:10.2)
The New York Knicks.
David Campbell (20:11.957)
alright.
Terry Pluto (20:14.07)
And the Knicks are scoring a ton of points this year. They have completely transformed their roster and how they play. So it’s funny, the Cavs, you know, realize they had up, go up more up tempo, score more points, partly because of their problems with the Knicks in the past. The Knicks, who then would get to the next round, were in the same problems that the Cavs did. So they transformed their roster.
to try and score more. But the Knicks are number one in offensive efficiency, Cavs are number two. And I was just stunned to see that. The Knicks, by the way, you know, they’re 15 and nine. I’ll tell you, he having a really good year as Orlando 17 and nine. And what’s his name? Ben Chero. He’s been hurt forever. Orlando’s really good. And people, because remember last year, I thought it was going be a tough series. I picked the Cavs in seven.
Cause I watched Orlando and I just saw how athletic and young they were that they were just going to be a tough out for anybody. And they’re continuing to grow that way. And I liked their coach. And so, there you are, but yeah, the Cavs are 21 and four, then Boston’s 19 and five, Orlando 17 and nine. I’m talking about Eastern conference. the Knicks are 15 and nine. And of course you always get JV for me. JV’s got those pistons at 10 and 15.
won only 14 games last year. So it is interesting to me how if you bring the right type of coach in, he can bring some order to these chaotic NBA situations. Cause it’s not like the Pistons went out and brought in a lot of high price free agents or something. They brought in a couple of veterans and they decided much like JB did here. This is the way we play. This is who we are. Now Kenny,
take that as he said he built on that.
Terry Pluto (22:13.87)
Foundation that JB had and now he added his offense to it this is the way we play and this is who we are when we have the ball and They’ve been able to play both sides of it defensively The calves are ninth and defensive efficiency. I’d like to see that be a little higher but not too bad and no, excuse me. They are Yeah, they’re ninth. They’re ninth and they’re ninth and defensive efficiency ninth and pace. So Okay
David Campbell (22:43.957)
All right. So we’ve talked a lot, Terry, about how young this Cavs roster has been, and I guess still is, think, with Donovan. If you guys are 28. Yeah, Struis is 20. I think Sam Merrill might be 28. But George Niang, like, I didn’t expect this when he came here, but I can’t turn anything on, a TV, a computer, without seeing him with a headset on talking about interesting stuff. What has this guy brought that maybe you didn’t expect?
Terry Pluto (22:44.056)
Pretty decent. Yep.
Terry Pluto (22:52.29)
He’s 20. Yeah, he’s 28.
Terry Pluto (23:06.89)
I know. Did you see this stat says 2020? He’s been on, he has won more regular season games than any player in the NBA. Yeah, George, I’ll tell you all about it. I’m sure, but it is a, yeah, he is first of all, he got in better shape and admitted it. Secondly, he is.
David Campbell (23:18.869)
That’s something.
Terry Pluto (23:34.282)
You know, he gets into people’s face a little bit and that, and remember Kenny calls them the connector. He has these guys that are connectors. In other words, they connect by in terms of moving the ball. He likes kneeing either shoots it or passes it once in a while. It takes a couple of dribbles. It goes to the rim. but he’s also a connector with other people, you know, even Tristan Thompson doesn’t play, but it’s like they have like their own show, but on the bench, you could see they are talking to players and they must be saying the right things because the coaching staff.
gives them to me a lot of latitude when they, you know, they’re pulling Garland over or whatever it is. So that is another key part of what’s going on where you’re building your culture. yeah, yeah, Nhi Anh, it’s just, you’re right. is, he’s a media star.
David Campbell (24:22.259)
Yeah, and that kind of gives the team a little bit of a different face and takes some of the media responsibilities off of some of the other guys. And it’s cool. I wasn’t expecting that from him when he came here and it’s kind of been fun. So think fans are having a good time with it.
Terry Pluto (24:25.816)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Terry Pluto (24:33.504)
Yeah, and he’s more physical. know, one now and then they put him on a center or something and he goes out there. Now, now this dose of the NBA, the, the, the nineties when you couldn’t even score a hundred points. I mean, outcome, the elbows, he stepped on a guy’s feet. He shoved them around and he’s never committed a file. Just ask him. So, but you, you have, he’s not dirty, but he’s really annoying. He’s very annoying to when you, when he’s guarding you and.
David Campbell (24:52.309)
Yeah.
Terry Pluto (25:02.284)
That is another part that helps. Jared Allen goes along shooting 68%, 13 points, almost 11 rebounds. It’s a fun team. actually there was a guy at where I was working out and he stopped me and he was on the Browns and this said, well, you just watch the Cavs. And I go, well, do you like basketball? goes, well, sort of. I said, sort of will be good enough. If you sort of like basketball, you will enjoy this.
It’s not just the winning, it’s the way they play the characters on the team.
David Campbell (25:35.839)
All right, so the Cavs were in Miami for the game Sunday and they actually are staying in Miami for a few days. They have a break here from Sunday to Friday because of not making the NBA Cup in Las Vegas. So they’re not playing Monday, Tuesday? No, not at all. I was like.
Terry Pluto (25:43.405)
Yeah.
Terry Pluto (25:47.902)
Nobody ever parties in Miami when they go down there do they? By when LeBron is a visiting player, I forgot what it is has this horrible record in Miami
David Campbell (25:59.198)
and the Cavs I don’t think are much better since he’s been gone. It’s like it’s a hard place to win.
Terry Pluto (26:00.75)
Yeah, right. They were bad when he was here. They were bad. I mean, obviously it’s a good record when he actually played for Miami, but I think with the Lakers, they get beat down there too.
David Campbell (26:12.467)
Yeah, you get beat by the nightlife the night before, and then you get beat by the heat the next day.
Terry Pluto (26:15.36)
Yeah, they just, yeah, exactly. You get it. You know, I’m sure all the wives and girlfriends want to make that trip. And so you’re, you’re on the beach and everything else. remember too, even when the guardians went down to Miami this year, Ben Lively pitched the next day. He has such a sunburn you could see on his neck and his arms. He was out on the beach and, he should know better because he’s from Florida. Remember his dad’s a commercial fisherman, I think around Tallahassee or somewhere.
David Campbell (26:26.548)
Yeah.
David Campbell (26:45.492)
Mm-hmm.
Terry Pluto (26:45.772)
But that didn’t stop him from, think his family was there and they had a great time on beach. He pitched okay, but it just looked painful to me.
David Campbell (26:55.359)
So they’re going be down there practicing, having some fun. And it’s too bad. They would never allow this. I thought the Cavs could just send the charge to play the Wizards on Friday. Maybe. And that way the Cavs could just go to New York and play at Brooklyn for their game on Sunday. for their next game on Monday, sorry. But that won’t happen. So any of the Cavs will be back home on Friday against Washington. And then they play Monday at Brooklyn.
Terry Pluto (27:04.45)
Yes
Terry Pluto (27:17.166)
Mm-hmm. By the way, I thinking of the NBA, did you, who has the best team? Okay, the best record in the West, Dave Campbell. This is all a surprise for me. I mean, I knew they were playing well, but I didn’t realize they were the best.
David Campbell (27:31.565)
I was going to say OKC as I guessed earlier, but is that not right? OK.
Terry Pluto (27:35.727)
Yeah, that’s correct. Okay. All right. Here’s a here’s a tricky one and well the next two are tricky number two and number three
David Campbell (27:45.621)
it’s not Denver Houston Okay, who’s number two? all right
Terry Pluto (27:50.296)
Houston is three.
How about this Memphis?
Yeah, that’s what I meant. If you were to name the top three, I would have probably gone OKC because I they were playing well Denver and Golden State now. Yeah, but yeah, so so there you are. The NBA is changing. It is yeah, Boston’s too, but you know you look at calves, you look at Orlando or even look at the top six right now. So you got Casey OKC Memphis and Houston in the West and he got Cleveland Boston in Orlando. Probably the only shoe one for that would have been Boston.
David Campbell (28:03.049)
Yeah, would have thrown Dallas maybe in there too, but yeah.
David Campbell (28:27.273)
Right? Yeah. And it’s a lot of these teams building young for the long-term stockpiling draft picks and trying to be good for a long time. So I think the calves might be a little further along in their, in their life cycle than maybe OKC is, but it’s going to be, yeah, it’s going to be fun. The East is going to be hard to get out of. You’re right. This, I think the calves in Orlando could be seeing each other for the next several years.
Terry Pluto (28:33.27)
Yes, they are.
Yeah.
Terry Pluto (28:40.302)
Mm-hmm.
Terry Pluto (28:48.384)
Yeah, they could. And the New York thing is something to watch. That’s why I’m on the word people. They have changed how they play. They changed some of their roster and they changed how they play. You know, they have towns and now they still have Brunson who’s a calf killer, but I have to catch them on TV. I’ve not seen them. And this one, I was looking at these stats. It’s like, you gotta be kidding. I mean, they’re scoring a ton of points and they’re very good offensively where before, you know, they were a clunky team.
lot of isolation and that’s all gone away. that is the NBA report.
David Campbell (29:23.489)
There you go. All right, so let’s take a break, Terry. When we come back, you had a column the last few days about how to evaluate Kevin Stefanski. I want to get into that. I also want to ask you how we should be evaluating Jamis Winston. We’ll get into that.
Terry Pluto (29:36.334)
and we will have a Vinnie Testa Verde comparison.
David Campbell (29:40.566)
OK, we’ll get into that and more when we return on Terry’s talking.
David Campbell (30:38.259)
Hey, welcome back to Terry’s talking. I do want to mention Terry’s newsletter. Comes out every Wednesday, all kinds of great stuff in there, stories, behind the scenes things. Terry does a lot of math in there where he’s crunching contracts and all kinds of stuff that you won’t find on cleveland.com. Sign up by going to cleveland.com slash Pluto. You’ll see all of Terry’s stuff there. At the top, there’s a blue bar. You can click on that. You get a two week free trial and then you can subscribe and.
It’ll be worth every penny, I promise, because it’s a great read every week, comes out every Wednesday at noon. all right, time to get into some Browns, Terry. The three and 10 Browns, they are taking on the Chiefs on Sunday at one down on the lakefront. You had a column over the weekend about how to evaluate Kevin Stefanski after everything we’ve seen so far. And why don’t you talk about that for a second and kind of I wonder if you’ve gotten any reaction from fans to that the last couple of days in terms of what the Browns are going through, how he’s handling it.
Terry Pluto (31:32.558)
I have to admit I am like all over the place and trying to evaluate him so I’m going to ask you to go first.
David Campbell (31:41.705)
I think he’s having a really hard time with this team for a number of reasons. And I think this off season, we’re going to see a reset in a number of ways. And I think I might’ve hinted at this in previous podcasts. I think we’re going to see the 2025 Browns return to Kevin’s to Fansky football in terms of the offensive approach. I don’t think he’s happy with what they’re doing. I don’t think he’s happy with how they’re doing it. mean, the other day.
The Browns got a delay of game penalty. The plays are coming in late. They got a delay of game penalty. And then after the penalty, they almost had another delay of game penalty because the play came in late. I think they snapped the ball with one second left. And I know he hates that stuff. And I don’t know what’s going on in terms of the assembly line of getting the plays into Jameis Winston. But I know he’s not happy with how things are going. I think it’s a combination of things. And I think it’s just time for a total reset for him and the whole.
Terry Pluto (32:19.342)
Yeah.
David Campbell (32:37.703)
Anyway, that was long-winded. don’t you just say it? Yeah.
Terry Pluto (32:37.794)
What? No, it wasn’t not at all. It plays in my point. First of all, I think the entire organization is in an utter state of shock. The last thing they expect to be was three and 10 at this point. They thought this would be a big game. You know, playoff consequences, all that stuff. Well, actually, it’s not for Kansas City. They probably they haven’t probably officially clinched a playoff. So I don’t maybe they have, but it’s over and.
It’s the other team. Certainly he’s clenched a non-playoff spot. So it’s over for them. Meanwhile, the Browns kept, mean, Kevin’s never going to be really dynamic or anything, but he, he looks like he just cannot wait to get these press conferences over. He really is in the, the bunker of, know, the, the bill Belichick were on the Cincinnati bunker, you know, whatever question you ask, he’s, know, Kansas city. He, doesn’t want to.
He doesn’t even want to talk about like young players he wants to look at or anything. I believe he’s, he’s just really shell shocked. And I probably, if you’ve rolled Andrew Barry out, you would hear the same thing because they don’t know what to make of this. And they’re at the point where you can’t do anything about it.
David Campbell (33:56.469)
That sums it up. so we need to start looking forward, right? And one of the key questions we’ve just been talking about Stefanski. What about Jamis Winston? We’re learning more and more about him every week. And how do you see him fitting? Well, a, the rest of the season and B going into next year, Kevin Stefanski has been getting questions about why don’t you put DTR and why don’t you put DTR and see what he can do, see what he can do.
Terry Pluto (34:02.211)
Mm-hmm.
David Campbell (34:25.653)
What you want to see happen with James Winston the rest of the way? And then how do you feel about him for next season going in?
Terry Pluto (34:32.814)
Well, to be fair to Jamis, he has played six games and four of them against teams that have been in the rank top six in defense. He’s got Pittsburgh twice and yet the Chargers and he had Denver. The last time I like Chargers and Denver were one and two and Pittsburgh is four. and that is a problem. That’s, that’s real challenge for any of them. Secondly, they can’t run the ball to save their life. So everybody and the defense is.
Not anywhere close to being good. You know, some days, sometimes it’s okay. A lot of times it’s mediocre. So that’s put a lot of pressure on him. Now the, would you play him some more as opposed to DTR? Well, if you’re thinking even as a possible quote bridge quarterback for next year, or a guy like Jacoby Berset, when he had to open the season, you want him to get some more starts because this guy.
I’m going to be looking, looking at as, as we’re talking now has not, you know, started a ton of games in a season since going back, believe you, when he was in, in, in Tampa Bay, that was 2019. So it’s important for him. If you really want to watch him to see how it plays out over time for him to, go and start some more games and start some more games for this team.
And I just really wonder, you know how this will play out for him, but I’m just looking right now at, you know, like how many games he has started in his career. Okay. So he started, started six games this year in 2021. He started seven games for, the saints. This was the most interesting year for him. He was five and two for the saints with 14 touchdowns and three interceptions. How about that?
They were five and two and he suffered an ACL. The next year he started three games. 23 didn’t start any games and now he started six. So he hasn’t played more than seven games since 2019 with Tampa Bay. And there you go. He needs to, I think needs to play more so they can evaluate him. He’s not some old guy. I mean, he’s 30.
David Campbell (36:53.581)
I agree. I mean, and this guy could be your starting quarterback going into next season. I mean, who else will you get that would be better? I don’t think there’s a very good free agent crop out there and certainly nobody who would be better than Jameis Winston. The other thing that I think is really interesting after watching him the last two weeks, Terry, I think this narrative of, it’s the Jameis Winston experience. You’re going to get three touchdowns and three interceptions every game. I think he’s getting really tired of that.
Terry Pluto (36:58.881)
Exactly.
Terry Pluto (37:16.686)
Ugh.
Terry Pluto (37:20.833)
Yeah.
David Campbell (37:21.295)
And it really hit me the other day after the game. Here’s a guy, Jamis Winston, who is all about his teammates is always trying to lift people up. And he took full responsibility for the pick six situation in Denver and said it was all on him. But after the Steelers game, here was his quote about the interception to Elijah Moore. It was a perfect throw, but we all have to be at the right place at the right time. It’s all about precision passing. I wish I had that one back because I had Jerome Ford.
right in front of me when the team plays deep zone like that, you never go broke taking a profit. All right, so I’m looking at the first part of that quote. It was a perfect throw and we all have to be at the right place at the right time. For Jameis Winston, that is the equivalent of standing on top of a mountain and yelling, that was not my fault. And so if fans will watch a game, they’re like, you know what, why is he throwing so many interceptions? Well, you know what, if a receiver pulls up,
Terry Pluto (37:58.84)
Yeah.
Terry Pluto (38:07.862)
Exactly, yeah. And that shows what
David Campbell (38:17.829)
short on a route because he doesn’t want to get I’m not saying that’s what happened here but if a receiver pulls up short on a route or runs the wrong route and doesn’t go to the right spot against his own defense the quarterback takes the stat for the interception but it’s on the receiver and I think Winston was he’s tired of this narrative and he wants to prove that that’s not him anymore and that quote really spoke to me in terms of that so sorry I cut you off there go ahead
Terry Pluto (38:19.438)
Mm-hmm.
Terry Pluto (38:40.33)
No, and then how he didn’t stop there, then he said, you know, I had Ford open in the flat, I should have gone there. And then he did the famous thing that they say in the stock market, you know, the people to play the market, you know, you never go broke taking a profit. You never lose money taking a profit. And so that’s, that is a comment that I did appreciate because had he stopped there, then he kind of hanging them out. But
You said you really had to listen closely, but he might’ve been delivering a message, maybe one or two of these guys. And I, I agree this, you know, we go back and I keep harking back to what I saw at that scrimmage with Minnesota. And I was talking to Mike Snyder, WTAM, cause I’m on the air with them three times a week. 10 to seven on Tuesdays and Friday mornings. And then on the Brownsburg game show and Mike.
David Campbell (39:15.135)
That’s true.
Terry Pluto (39:36.938)
Along with Jim Donovan, who sat with me for two of those days and was helping me. Mike Snyder was there one day and Mike, Mike didn’t bring it. Mike brought it up himself. He goes, you know, Terry, I just was thinking that that Minnesota thing, there’s just something called disjointed and messed up. said, exactly. This is how it is continued. Like you mentioned the trouble getting plays in and lined up and all this junk. Some of that is on Stefanski.
You know, a lot, the plague that hangs over the great clouds, I’ve been harping, beating this thing to death is about Watson, but you go back and you know, maybe breaking up that coaching staff on offense had even more, obviously losing Callahan was a big deal. That was not their fault. Yeah. But in terms of the other stuff, you know, Dorsey and this and.
David Campbell (40:23.645)
It would have been for anybody losing him, right? Yeah.
Terry Pluto (40:32.246)
And I’m not blaming Dorsey, just that he was brought in to run a different type of offense. And now, like you said, they’ll probably go back to Kevin’s office, but just because the national media is saying there won’t be any changes and my, my general sense is there won’t be any big changes. They still got four games to go. And this is the Brown. You remember, I hated to write that thing. You know, the Browns is the Browns. Juju Seuss is back from the quote that, hangs over there. when you’re three and 10, you is the Browns losing.
Pittsburgh like that and play that kind of game they played. It was really disappointing to me. And meantime, you just watched Mike Tomlin and those guys, a friend of mine was telling me, says, you know, they’re, they’re kind of like the guardians. They’re just like good all the time, or at least they’re never awful. And you just have sense that you have confidence that, okay, maybe they don’t win the whole thing, but they got a clue. And where the Browns is like, yes, they had a clue in 20.
And they had a clue in 23, but in 21, you’d go, there’s that lost season playing Baker hurt all the time. Then 22, the suspension season. And now whatever this mess is.
David Campbell (41:47.015)
all right. Well, we promised fans. I think we’ve said it all. I think we’ve said it all there.
Terry Pluto (41:48.718)
There’s your chance. I handed you the ball.
You felt like Jamus, I’m just running my own pattern. go, where is that going? And so therefore, if you’re Jimmy Haslam, you’re probably trying to figure all that out. And then if you go away from them, where do you go to?
David Campbell (42:15.103)
Well, the thing is, Terry, whoever was responsible for the Deshaun Watson decision is probably going to see some repercussions this season. like, we don’t know the answer to that really. Like, and that’s the biggest thing that has set this franchise back. There’s three number one draft picks who are not playing for this team right now because of Deshaun Watson.
Terry Pluto (42:24.334)
Mm-hmm.
Terry Pluto (42:33.399)
Yeah, it is.
Terry Pluto (42:38.088)
And I think a second rounder and a fourth round, I forgot what the other ones were. Yeah.
David Campbell (42:40.937)
yeah, that’s just the top of the draft. So if you see depth issues, there’s three number one draft picks and more, as you point out.
Terry Pluto (42:48.918)
And then also then you look at Andrew’s second round picks have been much better than his first. the cause you have Jedrick Wills, he’s done. now Newsome he’s on the injured list, isn’t he? For the pop list or whatever it is. And so he’s just been, I don’t know, how would you evaluate Newsome?
David Campbell (43:03.017)
Yes, yeah.
David Campbell (43:09.395)
So so and I mean we saw he wasn’t at his best the other day, but that’s because he got hurt and yeah so
Terry Pluto (43:14.286)
Yeah. So, you know, whereas like JLK, JLK was on his way to having a breakout season. He made the Pro Bowl last year, I believe. And then I’m sitting there in Pittsburgh. Pittsburgh like causes me to like become reflective on the Browns. Usually not in a good way, but I’m sitting there and I’m thinking at this point last year, they started to really click with Flacco and everything else.
They ended up, remember 11 and six, they were in such great shape. They didn’t even try to win that last game at Cincinnati. And the season ended and Kevin’s coach of the year and Schwartz’s offensive, excuse me, assistant of the year or coordinator, whatever they call it. And Flacco’s comeback player of the year. And you just look at that. And now you look at this. So did everybody get stupid or what?
I don’t have a great answer. I just know that you don’t have these huge swings in Pittsburgh. Now Kansas City, Andy Reid is a great coach. There’s no question about it. He is. But he’s got a great quarterback now, but he was good even before that with being in Philadelphia or that. But he doesn’t have these big swings either. The interesting thing though, by the way,
David Campbell (44:24.757)
He’s amazing.
Terry Pluto (44:43.274)
let me ask you this. Will Belichick a Tar Heel coach?
David Campbell (44:50.003)
Yeah. What do think of that? I think it’d be a great thing. he’s got history there. Well, I think for him, I mean, I think they had some good seasons with Mack Brown. think Belichick could do some good. He’s such a smart football mind. I don’t know how we would relate to college kids. That would be interesting, but, but he’s got some history there and I think they could do a lot worse. I really do.
Terry Pluto (44:51.618)
Well, I’m asking you.
Terry Pluto (44:55.854)
For who? Well yeah!
Terry Pluto (45:12.494)
That’s what I meant for who?
Terry Pluto (45:19.542)
Well, if he were to go with a bunch of younger assistants and everything else, there’s a possibility there. Now the flip side is bill Belichick without Tom Brady as a very average NFL head coach record wise.
I’m not saying it’s all Tom Brady, but a lot of times it’s the marriage of the two. know, Andy Reid was very good. Now Andy Reid is a Mount Olympus with Mahomes.
and the bumble yeah there you go John Dorsey will say I wanted to draft my homes you know well Dor you know Dorsey let’s just bring this up I’m not saying he should be there Dorsey’s actually in the right spot you know where he is don’t you
David Campbell (45:53.909)
It’s all because of the bundle Ruski.
Terry Pluto (46:12.872)
Yeah, John, John Dorsey, do know where he is? He is number two with the Detroit Lions. He’s been there since he got fired here. think perfect spot for him player evaluation and everything else, but he’s not making the final call because what hurt John, John needed an owner a couple of times to say, Antonio Callaway, this arrest record is not good.
David Campbell (46:16.671)
No.
David Campbell (46:20.882)
OK.
Terry Pluto (46:42.818)
to say, John, know, this is, find me someone else. And meantime, when he comes in and says, I know the rest of the NFL thinks Chubb should go on the third round or lower because of that knee. I love the guy. We’re taking him to second round. See, that’s where he is. And you go back and look at that draft of the quarterbacks in 18.
Let’s just bring them out. I’ll just bring them up right now. So yeah, Josh Allen. Well number one was Baker and he had Josh Allen and you had Josh Rosen and you had What’s what’s his names with? Minnesota now from USC Darnal and Then you had a guy nobody talked about which was Lamar Jackson So, how would you rate them right now?
David Campbell (47:24.821)
Darnold, Sam Darnold.
David Campbell (47:35.667)
Whoo, that’s a good question. think Lamar probably number one and and then I would go with Josh Allen number two. And then beyond that. Baker number three, I don’t know. Yeah.
Terry Pluto (47:37.102)
Yep.
Terry Pluto (47:44.344)
Yep.
Terry Pluto (47:51.0)
That’s how I would do it because Baker, mean, Donald’s playing really well now. Donald four and to just totally embarrass myself. The guy I liked best out of that draft was, was Rosen. Yeah. Mine was Rosen one Allen to Baker three. I did not like Donald at all because of all the turnovers and everything. He was, he was fumble, itis at USC and Lamar.
David Campbell (48:02.357)
Josh Rosen. Right.
Terry Pluto (48:18.51)
Nobody talked about him. I just thought always the second round pick. He’s an athlete I just fell into right into that trap at which everybody else thought except one guy Ozzie Newsom who trapped remember Yeah, and remember he traded up to get him in the same way Dorsey and I think his assistant there got him bowered and read all together. They traded up to get my homes So two of the best
David Campbell (48:27.049)
Yep, that was one of his last great moves as the player picker there.
Terry Pluto (48:46.91)
moves for quarterbacks have been guys traded up and guys taken. I believe Mahomes on 11th or something like that in the draft. And Lamar was right at the bottom of the first round. So that’s why when you go, got to have a top three pick to get a really good quarterback. You don’t.
David Campbell (49:07.071)
You don’t. Yeah. Look at Nick’s in Denver, what he’s doing there. So I got to tell a quick Ozzie story. She just reminded me of it. I saw this podcast a few months ago and they were talking about one of the guys worked with Ozzie. He was like a scouter in their draft room. And he said that the Ravens were interviewing guys on Michigan’s defense one year and they brought a guy in and they said,
Terry Pluto (49:10.434)
Yeah, exactly.
Yes.
David Campbell (49:34.111)
who runs the defensive meetings when you guys get together at Michigan and look at film? And the guy said, well, I do. And they said, OK, all right. And they brought in another guy from the Michigan defense. And they asked him, who’s the leader in the film room when you guys are watching film? And he goes, I am. And then as he steps in and he goes, who holds the clicker?
Terry Pluto (49:42.094)
Mm-hmm.
Terry Pluto (49:53.919)
Hahaha!
Terry Pluto (49:59.584)
Yep.
David Campbell (50:00.871)
And the guy goes, well, this other guy did. And Ozzy goes, well, you weren’t the leader then. And I think they ended up drafting or getting both of those players at one point. But just to show you how Ozzy’s mind would work, most GMs would have just taken that answer on his face. But Ozzy said, who held the clicker in the meeting? I thought that was a great Ozzy moment. I wish I could remember the name of that podcast because it was a good story.
Terry Pluto (50:11.202)
Mm-hmm.
Terry Pluto (50:16.884)
Yeah, who held that? Exactly right.
Terry Pluto (50:23.276)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, that was they they And see the thing you’re in a division We talked about the Steelers are always good Baltimore’s always good I think they had a seven and nine or you know a few years ago. So it’s not like Tomlin with 17 years without a losing season, but Baltimore’s always good Pittsburgh’s always good. I want the Browns to always be good. I Mean where you’re not sitting there
David Campbell (50:50.185)
You’re not alone.
Terry Pluto (50:51.906)
going three and 10 and you’re not sitting there, you know, with quarterbacks or suspended. mean, just sick of this stuff. I really am of that kind of, moves that are so high risk.
See the Lamar Jackson thing. It was a great move by Ozzy. You trade up into the first round. They didn’t use a regular first round pick. They traded up to get them. And if it works great and probably thinking of nothing else, I got an athlete here. I could do something with them. but he also had Flacco and I think he thought at the very least I will have a different look than Flacco. And that was a, that was a gutsy pick by Flacco. I think they took him, I forgot what it was 12th or 15th.
That you’re out of Delaware and he had always shot been out of the shotgun. And, Kevin Byrne told me this story because we, often make fun of you Jackson, but we got it. We got to give the man credit. So he was like quarterback coach or something. He wasn’t even offensive coordinator for the Ravens. And it was huge job to teach Flacco how to play under center. And he did.
David Campbell (51:39.859)
Delaware, yeah.
Terry Pluto (52:06.094)
Because now when you watch Flacco, think that’s how we always play. at Delaware, he was a pure shotgun, heave it down the field quarterback.
David Campbell (52:16.169)
Well, like you said, Terry, low risk, high reward. And just like the Steelers have right now with their two quarterbacks that they signed for hardly any money at all in terms of quarterback salary. all right. We were talking about Bill Belichick and which ties into the 1990s Browns. And we promised a Vinnie Testaverde thing. I mentioned to you that we got an email about Vinnie Testaverde and this comes from Raleigh Drussi and Raleigh says, hi, Terry, does Winston’s prolific passing numbers?
Terry Pluto (52:24.044)
Yeah.
Terry Pluto (52:27.561)
wait, yeah.
Terry Pluto (52:31.98)
There you are, good.
David Campbell (52:44.403)
with untimely
Terry Pluto (52:50.846)
It is, know, big guy, strong arm, great guy. Vinny’s a great guy, by the way. What a wonderful teammate too. He was another one. I remember one game he threw a couple of interpix and it was very obvious. Remember like when, was it Cedric Tillman last year? Of course, two interceptions for Flacco. You could just see. And Flacco, well, one of them, Flacco had enough. For the second time he mentioned it was that, but Vinny would always there. But this is, this is stunning stats.
21 years, first of all, Vinny plate, 275 touchdown passes, 267 interceptions.
It was a one to one ratio and James goes, yelling at me. 154 to one away. There I am.
David Campbell (53:37.909)
Yeah. There was never a Vinnie Testa Verde experience, was there, back in the day?
Terry Pluto (53:44.066)
No, there was, and it also shows how football has changed the analytics influence on how damaging interceptions are and turnovers, and you don’t want to have those. But I really think it’s unfair to simply take a guy like Jameis Winston, who is a marginal and NFL starter and certainly a terrific backup and teammate, and just
put him in the, he throws a bunch of interceptions box. Well, there’s a bunch of guys who are backup quarterbacks in his league. They won’t throw a whole lot of interceptions. They’re not going to throw any touchdown passes. They’re not going to do anything. You’re going to hand off and as, and yeah, check down Charlie’s. That’s what the, I forgot who Joe Thomas was telling me about a quarterback that I, or somebody like that said, called him check down Charlie. That’s what he is. And now granted, you don’t want to like,
David Campbell (54:23.039)
Check down.
Terry Pluto (54:36.61)
Vinnie Testa Verde and James sometimes I’m trying one I’m feeling it just let it let it fly but you also don’t want guys that don’t even give it a shot don’t give you a chance to win
David Campbell (54:50.933)
All right. Well, I, I mentioned drew Aller, the Penn State quarterback last week as a possible guy that the Browns could look at. If he comes out, I think he’s just finishing his third year. So he’s eligible, but he might go back, but he, they lost in the big 10 championship game, but he had, he had one of the best throws of the season. thought the other day, and I’m not just saying that cause he’s from Medina, but he would be one of these low risk, high reward guys, Terry, a former five star recruit, one of the top quarterbacks in his class. And he has a gun for an arm. don’t think he’s maximizing his production there. So.
Terry Pluto (54:54.371)
Yes.
Terry Pluto (54:59.672)
Mm-hmm.
David Campbell (55:20.575)
Keep an eye on him during the playoffs.
Terry Pluto (55:20.598)
I it, I’ve heard some, I haven’t watched enough of him to have a big opinion other than what you mentioned, the physical stuff and that. But I’ve heard him project a second and third round. I mean, if that’s the case, he probably should come out.
David Campbell (55:33.481)
probably yeah but he was they were in a in the red zone he was being pulled down by his shirt and stood in there and just delivered a rope into the end zone and they lost so anyway we’ll see how they do in the playoff I’ll be keeping an eye on him so Guardians Terry big news the last few days the signing of Shane Bieber who’s coming back to Cleveland why don’t we start with an email from Steve Ronsky listener who’s from Grayslake Illinois
Terry Pluto (55:40.525)
Mm-hmm.
David Campbell (55:59.369)
He says, Hey guys, enjoy the podcast very much. I wanted to get your takes on the Bieber contract. I feel it was an odd deal for a very fiscally conservative organization like the guardians. I wouldn’t have made the deal unless Bieber made a hard commitment beyond 2025, not just the player option. If he has a good second half, he’s gone after the season. All you’ve done is rehab him for the Yankees or some other big market team. Of course, if he pitches great down the stretch and leads the guardians to a world series title, I’ll happily eat my words.
Thanks for that Steve. Just for background, so the deal is 10 million in 2025 and there’s a player option for 16 million plus a 4 million buyout in 2026. So how do you feel about all that Terry?
Terry Pluto (56:38.422)
Here’s how, well first of all, let’s explain how this works exactly. So his salary is 10 million then and his salary for 26 is the 16 million. But if he decides to skip it, he still gets 4 million bucks to leave. It’s not a 4 million buyout. It’s the other way. you’re, it’s correct. It’s a different kind of contract. Drew Rosenhaus did that contract.
David Campbell (56:42.037)
All right.
Terry Pluto (57:04.735)
Of Drew Ozenhouse should have signed him for 40 or $50 million that the guardians were offering several Springs ago.
My guess is they would decide that here’s what I think they believe that the Bieber, we won’t really know what Bieber’s like till 26, that he may come back and pitch some nice games, much like Matthew Boyd did. But if you watch, they were watching Boyd on like 80 pitches and five innings, and they were very careful. I did the timing on it in my column on Bieber. if it’s a, and Boyd kind of,
It’s usually 12 to 18 months, but really is getting closer to 18 months for most of these guys with, with Tommy John Boyd came back in 14 months and he pitched, early August finally in the big leagues is when that was. So if you roll that into Bieber, that would be sometimes around, early July, something like that. Yes. And they would be.
David Campbell (58:10.645)
was was heard in April, right?
Terry Pluto (58:16.077)
he’d have to go through the minors and that kind of stuff. So I think the guardians felt that if he’s pretty good, he’ll probably still be with us, but you never know. Scott Borrell’s got $29 million for two years for Matthew Boyd.
David Campbell (58:35.925)
All right. Well, that’s, I keep think they’ve lost both Cobb and Boyd in this off season already. And you’re right. This, this does feel like that a little bit where it’s, it’s a good deal to get him through the second half of next season. And then they can see where they’re at and they’ve got them signed. So they don’t, they won’t lose him if he decides to, well, unless he decides he wants to leave for more money, which would be hard to make that case in half a season. Yeah. Yeah.
Terry Pluto (58:55.118)
Mm-hmm.
Terry Pluto (58:59.046)
I mean he could, he could, but probably if he does it means he’s pitched very well this year. I think that’s what they’re figuring this upcoming season. By the way, wouldn’t it surprise us thing the Guardians, the Guard Fest is like now at every three years or something?
David Campbell (59:06.196)
Right.
David Campbell (59:13.639)
Every three years, yeah. They’ve just announced that this week. We’re trying to find out. It’s a big undertaking, right? And I don’t know if it was a money-loser. There’s a lot of questions about it. But I’ve often found it weird, too, that they’re the only team that does something like that. Like, the other teams don’t have one either.
Terry Pluto (59:15.446)
What’s that about?
Terry Pluto (59:22.637)
I guess.
Yeah.
Terry Pluto (59:31.554)
Yeah. The fans, the fans seemed to like it when I went down every year or so. I mean, what do I know? by the way, did you see the, the, Paul Hoynes did not make the hall of fame. Tom, Tom Boswell did from the Washington post. And that that’s probably one of those things where a lot of the people voting, Boswell being at the Washington post, bigger, you know, bigger media outlet and.
David Campbell (59:36.735)
Yeah. So, yeah.
David Campbell (59:43.913)
Yes, we’re going to keep pulling for him next year though.
Terry Pluto (01:00:00.332)
You know, Paul Hoynes is a, he’s the everyday beat guy. Even when I was in Baltimore and. Basel was the quote beat man for the Washington post covering the Orioles. He, there was no Washington, nationals or senators or anything at that point. He really wasn’t there all the time. He would come in and write features and those kinds of things. So he was not a traditional baseball beat guy at all. not to.
And Tom is a wonderful, elegant writer and he loves baseball. But it was, when I think about that, that award, think about guys who are, you know, long time beat guys, know, Sheldon Ocher made it from here. Lebowitz was in help. People can think about Hal as a columnist, but early in his career at the old Cleveland news, he covered, he covered the tribe for years and years. You know, Gordon Cobbledick is in another guy playing dealer beat writer for years and years.
In fact, I Cobbledick was actually my dad’s favorite writer. He liked Hal too, but he loved Cobbledick.
David Campbell (01:01:05.538)
Well, Tom Boswell, as you mentioned, Terry is a standing writer and he is a national and he’s got books and a lot of people have read his baseball books over the years and it’s but Hoynes is going to get in one of these years and we know that’s going to happen. So we’ll be pulling for him. To wrap up the Guardians real quick, Terry, I think we got a couple of emails last week or maybe it was one about the players shares for the playoffs and Paul Hoynes, I think it was the next day, got the information and did a story on it.
Terry Pluto (01:01:10.349)
Yep.
Mm-hmm.
Terry Pluto (01:01:26.487)
Yes.
David Campbell (01:01:32.501)
But MLB has announced the shares for the 12 teams. The Guardians received 15.4, almost 15.5 million as their portion of the gate receipts. they have, yeah, they’re handing out 72 full shares worth $182,663. They also handed out 12.48 partial shares. Yeah, so I just wanted to throw that on there. According to the...
Terry Pluto (01:01:43.438)
It like 180 grand a player, I think.
Terry Pluto (01:01:50.19)
Mm-hmm.
David Campbell (01:02:00.039)
A green basic agreement players and managers get it the certified athletic trainers and the strength and conditioning coaches get a percentage share. So basically teams decide who’s going to get the money and how they’re going to break it up.
Terry Pluto (01:02:10.574)
You know, for a lot of these guys, well, first of all, it’s a lot of money for anybody, but even if you get, you know, you’re a trainer or something like that and you get say half a share of 90 grand, that probably just doubled your salary or more. And that’s a, and that was always the, in the old days. I remember when I did the book with the, on the 61 Yankees with Tony Kubik and the Yankees, like when he was a younger player, they went to kind of slump and they weren’t playing well. he said,
David Campbell (01:02:23.128)
yeah.
Terry Pluto (01:02:39.982)
I forgot who a couple of the veterans were, Yogi Bear and some others pulled Kubik over. think Bobby Richardson said, you guys are messing with our money because we need that World Series share. Because that almost was half of their regular season salary. And the Yankees would tell you this when you would negotiate it. Well, don’t have, you know, we’ll pay you $20,000, but you know, we’re going to make the World Series and that’s at least another 10. It could be even 12,000.
David Campbell (01:02:55.807)
Crazy.
David Campbell (01:03:06.549)
Yeah, Hoynsey added in a story. 17 of the 26 players on the Guardians’ playoff rosters were making at or just above the Major League minimum of $740,000. So that’s a big chunk for guys who are making, that’s 50 % of what they made the whole season. The Dodgers’ share for winning it all was $477,441. The Yankees were number two at the... No, not at all.
Terry Pluto (01:03:19.085)
Yeah?
Terry Pluto (01:03:23.298)
Mm-hmm.
Terry Pluto (01:03:32.226)
Yeah, but they don’t have any high-pay players.
David Campbell (01:03:35.413)
The Yankees were number two at 354,572 and then the Guardians had the third biggest share at 182,663.
Terry Pluto (01:03:43.31)
Yeah, I don’t know how they figure that.
David Campbell (01:03:46.581)
It’s a combination of gate receipts and how many games you win. think I don’t have that but
Terry Pluto (01:03:50.466)
Yeah, I how many games you play too.
David Campbell (01:03:53.641)
Yeah, that’s probably part of it and winning matters. The Braves.
Terry Pluto (01:03:55.15)
because see Cleveland had they had a five they had a five game series with Detroit and the Yankees was a five game series.
David Campbell (01:04:01.927)
Mm-hmm the Braves were got the lowest that their players got nine thousand five hundred and forty eight because they had a very short run so Do you want to talk about this golden bat proposal real quick Terry? It’s a little timely so we probably should jump on it for a minute just to for background MLB is kicking around this thing where you would have a golden bat at bat once a game and You could pick any player from your lineup and send them up at any time at a key point of the game. I Think they should actually have a gold bat like
Terry Pluto (01:04:13.175)
A little bit.
Terry Pluto (01:04:32.024)
Yeah.
David Campbell (01:04:32.029)
Hey, you ever tour the Louisville Slugger Museum, can paint the bats or whatever, but I think the guy should go up and bat with a gold bat. I think that’d be really cool if they did it. What do you think, Terry, of the golden bat proposal?
Terry Pluto (01:04:43.064)
Well, first of all, if you do it, if you, all right, let’s, let’s do the, think Joe Noga first mentioned that, this example, you know, it’s the eighth inning and the bases are loaded with one out, guardians are down by a run. Hedges is up. So instead of hedges, Jose gets to bat. Okay. So he gets to bat, see what happens. Now Jose’s batting his regular third spot in the lineup. now one of the proposals be, well, then he also then gets to bat third.
No, he doesn’t not under my rule. No, if you pull him out of that spot, you’ve taken them out. You’re not giving your best player an extra lineup appearance. You’re just moving that thing somewhere. And I think it creates now I’m doing the positive part first. it creates a lot of kind of fun, second guessing managers in some ways will hate it because they’ll keep wondering, do I hold it’s almost like a basketball timeouts or something to when do I call it? When do I use it? Who do I even use it with? But it.
It does. And some people will say it’s, you know, altering with the, the, the, the sanctity of the game. I remember I’m old enough to remember when they, the pitcher stopped batting, they had this designated hitter thing. What do you mean he’s going to bat and not have to play the field and just keep doing that? Yes. And of course now it’s just, it’s like, you think it’s always been there. So.
I would be willing to look at it in the minors. That’s the cool thing about baseball. You have the minors, you could try all this stuff out and sort of see how it goes. But at first I would think, well, that’s stupid, that’s crazy. Then I started thinking about it and whoa, I remember people saying about the designated hitter. And so I’m intrigued enough to try it in the minors, not just there. I know Manford got, I guess, skewered by a lot of people. And Salaki is back in office on the commissioner on this.
But he should say, no, let’s look at it in rookie ball or somewhere. Yeah.
David Campbell (01:06:38.643)
Yeah, what’s the harm? And this is what you explained about starting in the minor leagues. And I think that’s a really good idea is that’s what exactly would happen when the pitch clock came out. All these baseball purists were clutch and clutching their pearls. my, we can’t put a clock on baseball. And they tried it in the minor leagues and it worked and it made the game faster. And now everybody loves it. So.
Terry Pluto (01:06:44.834)
Yeah. yeah.
Terry Pluto (01:06:57.75)
As I wrote I wrote a lot about the role changes I challenge you to go back because a Caleb Mackey is one of our listeners said he watched a 2019 game with the Sun on video. I don’t know why he was doing that, but he did And he said it was like he started throwing the ball get in the batter’s box I mean it was painful how slow the pace was and then you look at what do you mean? You’re not allowed to shift players should be able to stand anywhere. They want on the diamond. Well, not anymore
David Campbell (01:07:25.907)
Yeah. But I mean, it’s, it’s, it’s Rob Manfred’s job to come up with ways to grow the game and make it better. And if he doesn’t throw stuff out like this, like this out, he’s not doing his job like for discussion.
Terry Pluto (01:07:27.062)
No they’re- no they can’t?
Terry Pluto (01:07:37.306)
And the fact, mean, the fact is, what do you mean a reliever has to pitch the three batters? Never used to be that way. It is now. Thank goodness. I mean, can you imagine if that rule wasn’t in and we have bullpen games already teams, teams that only have like nine guys on the roster and they’d have, you know, 94 pitchers. So
David Campbell (01:07:55.829)
Yeah. And now, and look what happened to, were talking about this in the middle of December and people are talking baseball about this golden bad thing in December. So mission accomplished for Rob Manfred, right?
Terry Pluto (01:08:03.734)
Yeah, and you can look at it. But also, do want to adapt. The fact is, last couple of years with the rule changes, attendance is up everywhere. And I know the Guardian’s internal data showed a lot of people say that it is a better game to watch. It’s a better game to watch moving along so fast. And at first, I thought I wouldn’t like the Ghostrunner on second. I remember when that came out.
midway through that season, think it was the COVID season. I’m like, this is really interesting. Let’s see what you’re gonna do. Yes, it did. Yeah. So, I mean, please, so you can move in a bat one, but you don’t let this guy bat, because one guy said, we can just move, judge up one spot in the roster, here in the lineup, and then he gets to bat twice in a row. No, he doesn’t. You can’t have that. No, this is like, if you put him in there,
David Campbell (01:08:39.573)
And that’s another thing that started in the minor leagues, right? Yeah.
Terry Pluto (01:08:59.788)
That’s where he bats and he loses that spot in the lineup. And there you go. I don’t know. That’s all I feel. And I’ll tell you another thing, David. I got an email from a fan. said, just what the Yankees need, you know, where they could have put Aaron judge or whatever, anywhere. Actually the Yankees golden bat wouldn’t, don’t think it helps them because they probably have six guys going to hit the ball, the ballpark anyway. It more likely will be a benefit.
David Campbell (01:09:05.862)
You got like a double switch. Yeah. All right. Well, let’s see where that goes. It’s going to be something to...
Terry Pluto (01:09:29.006)
to a good mid-marketing Cleveland, Kansas City, et cetera, where you have, you know, they could take Bobby Witt and drop them in somewhere where they want to put them, or you could take Jose and drop them into a spot, because you don’t have three Jose’s in the lineup like the Yankees have. so that’s, I want people to really think about this beyond the, no, you can’t do that. I mean, once upon a time, nobody thought they should have automatic transmission in cars.
David Campbell (01:09:48.351)
Very interesting.
David Campbell (01:10:01.298)
That’s really old school Terry that’s going back. All right hey we-
Terry Pluto (01:10:03.774)
What they did? I won’t even use an indoor plumbing reference.
What do you mean this device? What happens if it doesn’t work and we’re inside?
David Campbell (01:10:13.973)
Alright. Hey, so we are going to close with some Ohio State. We talked a little Ohio State Michigan last week and we did get a couple of listeners who wrote in about that. The first one is from Scott Goodman and he says, Hey Terry, I’m listening to your December 3rd podcast and your discussion of the OSU Michigan game.
Terry Pluto (01:10:17.454)
Alright, enough of that.
David Campbell (01:10:35.445)
After watching the game and experts reviewing the tape of the game, I wanted to share my thoughts. You questioned why Will Howard didn’t throw a pass more than 20 yards down the field. I think that was a stat that I mentioned, Terry. Will threw two passes more than 20 yards. Both throws the Michigan defensive backs, grabbed the OSU receiver and gave up 15 yards for penalty for pass interference instead of a large gain or a TD. Another reason the college rules should change pass interference to a spot foul like the NFL as opposed to 15 yards.
Terry Pluto (01:10:44.759)
Yes.
Terry Pluto (01:10:54.304)
Aha!
David Campbell (01:11:04.925)
I agree the play calling was unacceptable, but the offensive line blocking was poor, very poor in the fourth quarter, especially the last drive. Will Howard had immediate pressure in his face right over the backup center. Thank goodness for the Cavs and Jamis Winston to make the Browns games fun to watch since the Browns are out of the playoffs and need high draft picks. Thanks for the articles and podcasts. Best to you and Roberta. Again, that’s from Scott Goodman. And we got another one from Tom Hearn and he says, yeah.
Terry Pluto (01:11:28.12)
by the way, let’s give Scott some, he had a couple things like, number one was, they went deep and there were the penalties. so that actually, you can keep going deep, you get 15 yards or is it 10? I’ve forgotten the college game, 15, so that’s 15 yards. Secondly, he’s also right about, it should be to the spot of the foul.
David Campbell (01:11:40.434)
It worked.
15. Yep.
David Campbell (01:11:52.981)
I agree and Tom Hearn, our next listener says similar sentiments. He says, hi guys, I was listening to last week’s podcast. You and Terry discussed the Michigan game against Ohio State. Made the comment that they did not complete pass down the field. Also you stated that they did not throw many long passes, but they did throw two over 40 and they were tackled by the Michigan player.
In college, it’s a 15 yard penalty. This is much different than the pro game, which is a penalty on the two yard line. I see this as a very unfair rule. My friend who was an SEC referee sends me the weekly review of NCAA officials. They discussed this difference, but said that the committee was not interested in changing the rule. I think it’s a terrible decision. so yeah, just like you were saying, Terry, to me, it was proof that it works. And the other thing teams can do, the biggest advantage Ohio state had on offense was that amazing group of receivers.
Terry Pluto (01:12:42.551)
Mm-hmm.
David Campbell (01:12:42.825)
That was the biggest advantage they had in the whole game. And we’ve, we see the Browns do this or other teams. When you’re having pass protection problems, you keep in seven, eight guys, you keep in running backs and tight ends and you send one, two or maybe three guys out into a pattern and you max protect and let your receivers win. And I think all the shoes receivers, especially Jeremiah Smith were good enough to win with not as many guys out in patterns and they just didn’t push it down.
Ryan Day said this last week, we had too many interior runs was I think a direct quote of what he said. We had too many interior runs.
Terry Pluto (01:13:16.398)
It’s it’s remarkable that Chip Kelly, not calling the place, not Woody Hays, it’s just astounding to me. Because given his history.
David Campbell (01:13:27.049)
Yep. Anyway, Ohio State is, that Michigan game is now in the rear view mirror, at least on the schedule. And I’m seeing predictions that they could win the whole thing. That people are thinking they’re going to go on a run that that Michigan loss will set them off on a championship run. So that we will see that is going to be starting a week from Saturday down in Columbus. I have, he’s good. He’s good. I’m trying to think of a comparison. He’s
Terry Pluto (01:13:45.742)
Have you seen us running back from Boise steak as I have not? And? How good?
David Campbell (01:13:58.717)
He’s part scat back but he’s also part, he’s got power and he’s not just a third down guy. You know how you see some guys who are a little bit slight? He’s built, he’s built really thick and I think he could be a good pro. I don’t know how high I would take him but he’s a good football player.
Terry Pluto (01:14:04.173)
Yeah.
Terry Pluto (01:14:18.36)
Cause I just saw a little bit and you know.
David Campbell (01:14:22.495)
Sorry, we’re talking about Aston Giante from Boise State.
Terry Pluto (01:14:24.246)
Yeah, and he is he beat Barry Sanders’s record or where is he on that? He’s like right there. He’s like right there. Yeah. Mm hmm. Italy. Yes. That was in the army. I’ve heard a nice story on him in the Wall Street Journal recently. And see a guy like that to me is intriguing. You know, third round pick, something like that. The Browns. We don’t know what Chubb’s going to be able to do next year.
David Campbell (01:14:28.423)
I am not sure, but he’s close. Yeah. And it’s interesting. He grew up in Florida. I mean, in Florida, in Italy, playing football. Yeah.
Terry Pluto (01:14:52.215)
I think we’ve seen enough about Jerome for to think, okay, he’s okay. How’s that? That’s it. So.
David Campbell (01:14:58.281)
Well, every time I watch the Cowboys return a kick, I think about the Browns. How many guys are on this team right now who can run a kickoff or a pass or a jet sweep 90 yards? How many guys you think are on the team? Maybe Jerry Judy? They have nobody who’s a game breaker in terms of speed like that, and they need guys like that, not just on offense, but to return kicks. So I think somebody like him would
Terry Pluto (01:15:14.36)
Judy, Judy’s your big athlete, that’s it. Yeah.
Terry Pluto (01:15:24.151)
Mm-hmm.
David Campbell (01:15:26.781)
would be a perfect fit. You could do a lot.
Terry Pluto (01:15:27.406)
I mean, is it, an interesting pick. And if you take him to third round, just, okay. Well, okay. It’s a third round pick. so I, I would like to see them look at a running back third round, fourth round like that, because you’d have other, know, they’ve got to get something. The offensive line going. I really want to tackle one here. well, well, they’re gonna have to one drones back and you have a conch on state healthy. Well, conquest stayed healthy for the first time. We’ll see if he finishes the year healthy, by the way.
I don’t mean there just to say, cause he, don’t know when was the last time, but I think 20 was the last time he got through the whole year healthy. And then, the one now the last two years has ended up on the injured list and the season.
David Campbell (01:16:09.301)
Yeah, you look across the roster, they’re relying on a lot of guys coming back from injury and they need to get younger, bigger, faster and meaner. they’ll be, I’m curious to see how the draft, some years are really good safety drafts. Some years it’s really good running back draft. I’m really curious to see how that shakes out this year when all the declarations come out. So, all right, we’re good, right Terry? We done? All right. Hey, don’t forget again, check out Terry’s newsletter and send us your.
Terry Pluto (01:16:16.46)
Mm-hmm.
Terry Pluto (01:16:31.519)
I’m done!
David Campbell (01:16:36.885)
2024 favorite moments and your 2025 Cleveland sports predictions, sports at cleveland.com. We will talk to you next week when we return on Terry’s talking.