CLEVELAND, Ohio — In this episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast, Ethan Sands, Chris Fedor and Jimmy Watkins discuss the dynamics surrounding Kevin Love’s potential return to the Cavs, evaluating his fit within the current roster.
Takeaways:
Max Strus’ return is crucial for the Cavs’ offense.
Dean Wade is vital for playoff success due to his versatility.
Isaac Okoro continues to develop and play a key role for defending top perimeter players around the league.
Kenny Atkinson faces tough decisions regarding player rotations.
The Cavs’ depth allows for varied matchups in the playoffs.
Kevin Love’s relationships in the locker room are significant, but his current performance raises questions about his fit in a potential trade.
Larry Nance Jr. could be a valuable addition for the Cavs.
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Read the automated transcript of today’s podcast below. Because it’s a computer-generated transcript, it may contain errors and misspellings.
Ethan Sands
What up, Cavs Nation? I’m your host, Ethan Sands, and I’m back with another episode of the Wine and Gold Talk Podcast. And yes, it is that time of the week again. It’s time for this rendition of Hey Chris. To do so, we have the man himself, Chris Fidor, along with Jimmy Watkins. First and foremost, guys.
There was some news to hit the air today and Chris, I know you have your sources inside the Cleveland Cavalier system that have some insight to share about Max Struz, his availability at practice and what could be coming at the end of the week.
Chris (00:45.656)
Well, the Cavs practiced earlier today in Miami. That’s part of the benefit of not going to the NBA cup knockout rounds is that they get an opportunity for a mental reset and they get an opportunity for some practice sessions that they wouldn’t have otherwise had. Max first practiced with the charge on Friday. That was a big step for him and his recovery process. And then the Cavs practiced in Miami this afternoon. Max was a full participant.
The calves are supposed to practice again tomorrow in Miami before they leave Miami to come back home. Max is scheduled to participate in that practice, I’m told. So that would be back to back practices. And I think one of the things the calves want to see is, okay, now that he’s had his first full contact practice since suffering the injury to his ankle, at least with the calves, how’s the ankle going to feel tomorrow?
And then after back to back practices, how is the ankle going to feel? How is it going to respond? And if it responds well to the second practice tomorrow, then the calves are supposed to gather together as an organization. It’s going to be Kenny Atkinson. It’s going to be the training staff. It’s going to be the medical staff and they’re all going to determine is Max ready to go? Is he ready to be cleared for game action?
So I’m told that his return could come as soon as Friday against the Wizards at home, but no determination at this point has been made now. Obviously, I think Max is hopeful that he can come back Friday and I think the Cavs are hopeful that he can come back Friday and being able to put in these practices is a really, really good sign for his return being imminent, but they want to see how the ankle responds before making any kind of determination.
on whether he’s going to be available Friday or not. Back-to-back practices and how that ankle responds to back-to-back practices will be a big determining factor on whether he can play Friday against the Wizards.
Ethan Sands (02:50.507)
And obviously, Chris, we talked about his return and what he’s been able to do and what he hasn’t been able to do to this point. So obviously him being back at practice is a big step forward. And then you talk about what the schedule looks like and how that entails to his recovery process and what the Cavs might do to help him get along if he is able to go on Friday, because then they play on Monday and then they have the entire week until playing again on Friday. So I think.
It’s an interesting scenario where you talk about Max’s recovery, when you talk about what is the right time to bring him back, because I believe, and I think you would also say this, that he will come back on a minute restriction before being brought back fully. And I think that’s also something to monitor when you talk about his progress and the date that the calves decided to bring him back. But Jimmy, I wanted to ask you really quickly, because we didn’t have you on our
Max Drews, Dean Wade return, how that fits into the Cavs program podcast. What do you think it does for this Cavs team when Max Drews comes back and how he’s going to be acclimated into the Kenny Atkinson system?
Jimmy Watkins (03:58.938)
more shooting, more movement, more confusion for defenses. That’s good. think Max as an off ball mover is, is really, really good. think Kenny can use him as a, as a weapon, a distraction for defenses, take advantage of, of the fear he puts into defenses. That would be huge. I also think that Max Struus is, he just, he’s just like an MFer, you know?
He’s a real serious business basketball player. I think that there are other players like Donovan, I feel like is very much that way. I think Darius is that way, it’s just like Max brings an edge. Max brings an edge and a seriousness. it would be very cliche to say this, but maybe it is a little that heat culture that rubbed off on him. you can definitely see the Pat Riley in that guy. And again, it’s been going great.
Chris (04:52.087)
you
Jimmy Watkins (04:58.81)
without him, but you know, 21 and four can’t complain about that. I guess you could, if you want to, complain about the fact that they’re not in the NBA cup quarterfinals. I don’t know. I wouldn’t mind having a week off in the middle of the year. But to me it’s more just about, okay, do what we’re doing well now, but get max acclimated so that we can have him up and up and running. mean, ideally before this, but
By playoff time, Max is up and running in a regular part of your whole system here.
Ethan Sands (05:38.679)
All right. Thank you, Jimmy, for that. And I think this question to start our Hey Chris episode gets into a little bit about all the players that we’ve talked about over the past couple of weeks. And especially when it comes to returning from injuries and all those different things. It comes from Brian in San Diego. He says, assuming all are healthy starting in January through the playoffs, please rank the following role players in terms of importance.
to winning and going as far as we can in the playoffs. Dean Waite, Isaac Okoro, Max Struce, Ty Jerome, or Sam Merrill. Chris, I wanna give you the first stab at this one when it comes to ranking these players in matter of importance and getting the calves to where they want to be at.
Chris (06:25.516)
Wait, who was that again? Dean? Max?
Ethan Sands (06:27.609)
Dean Wade, Isaac Okoro, Max Struce, Ty Jerome, and Sam Merrill.
Chris (06:36.298)
Sam Merrill. I think, wow, I think it’s pretty much in that order. I really do. I think Dane is vitally important to the Cavs’ success in a playoff series, especially against the teams that are loaded with wings. So if it’s Milwaukee, if it’s New York, if it’s Boston that’s standing in the way of the Cavs getting to their ultimate goal, if it’s the Orlando Magic, like whoever it may be, two-way wings with defensive versatility.
and offensive versatility are going to be really, really important. The numbers bear it out. The Cavs are a different team when Dean Wade is healthy than when he’s not. The other night against Miami, that was the first time that the Cavs lost a game with Dean in the starting lineup this year. It’s the first time that they lost a game that Dean Wade started and finished this year. So I think his importance, you know, we’ve talked about it so much, but it ramps up even more.
When you get into a playoff environment, you need that defense, you need that shooting, you need that connectivity, you need that floor spacing. You just need another body to deal with some of the wings that the Cavs are going to face on their journey to a potential NBA championship. And then after that it’s Max because I think Max gives them a whole different look offensively. I think Max provides a different element offensively that the Cavs
need in this starting in this starting lineup, especially because, you know, Evan is still growing into a capable, comfortable, confident perimeter player. We’ve got to see that in the postseason, right? We’ve got to see the Jared Allen, Evan Mobley combination in the postseason and how teams are going to try and deal with that. Because you know that teams are going to throw different wrinkles and they’re going to try and neutralize that as much as possible. Well, Max provides.
You know, another trigger offensively, he provides gravity. He takes attention away from Donovan Mitchell. He’s a lethal knockdown three point shooter with a ton of playoff experience. He’s tough. He’s physical at the point of attack. That’s going to matter on the defensive end of the floor. So I’m always going to side with like the potential two way wings. And I go with Isaac too, because look, if you’re playing against Damian Lillard, you need a guy like Isaac Kikoro to bother him.
Chris (09:00.556)
as much as possible. you’re playing against Jalen Brunson, you need a guy like Isaac Kikoro at the point of attack that can make it hard on these kinds of guys. So those would be my first three. Then I put Ty in there because I think the Cavs will need like a little bit of a release valve offensively. Somebody to take the ball handling responsibility away from Donovan, allowing him to play off the ball more, allowing Darius Garland to play off the ball more.
so that the attacks coming from both those guys can be a little bit more varied so that Ty Jerome can organize the team, get them into good actions, get them into their sets. And like I said, be another release valve and another playmaker for the Cavs. Coming off the bench, playing in three-guard lineups, depending on the matchup, I think he’s a great benefit because of his size, his versatility, his playmaking, his shooting prowess.
and his ability to fit in a variety of different lineups. And then after that it’s Sam Merrill because I just think he’s pretty, when you talk about skill set overlap, you know, he’s very similar to Max Struz, but Max is a better player. Stylistically, he’s similar to Max, but Max is a better overall player who’s probably going to get more consistent minutes. But if Max is in foul trouble, if Max is struggling with his outside shot,
It’s nice to have somebody like that that Kenny Atkinson could go to as a potential replacement or as a potential offensive spark. Like Sam Merrilla is going to be looked at as the Cavs tighten their rotation and get into the playoffs as kind of like an insurance policy, a specialist coming off the bench for needed situations where his skill set is warranted based on how the game is going and stuff like that.
That’s how I would rank it. But I think of that group, think Dean Wade is a clear number one and then there’s a gap.
Jimmy Watkins (10:59.898)
It’s Dean number one with a With a bullet. With a bullet. Because he... Yes, he’s a great defensive player. He’s the size that he brings. I mean, we’re talking specifically about Boston here. He is made in a lab to guard guys like Jason Tatum, Jaylen Brown. But offensively, he is the key to un-gluing the Cavs offense.
Chris (11:03.17)
with a bullet.
Jimmy Watkins (11:28.918)
when it’s time to, okay, so if we had the big conversation about the two big lineups last night and what will be revealed in the playoffs will be revealed. Maybe the Cavs can just keep trotting out Evan and Jarrett in heavy minutes. Kenny has solved it with ball movement and player movement and all that. That would be great. If that isn’t the case, and there will be moments where it gets a little sticky out there and the Cavs will have some trouble scoring.
Chris (11:38.466)
Yes.
Jimmy Watkins (11:57.792)
by virtue of spacing. Dean Wade is the missing puzzle piece. mean, think we kind of forget, not forget, we just didn’t get to see how big of a playoff weapon he could be last year because he was hurt for most of the postseason. He is really a game changer, man. think honestly, given his injury history, Cavs should almost, this is going to be maybe...
It’s either the most MBA podcast thing that’s ever been said or we’ve gone too far. Do the Cavs need some load manage Dean Wade to get him to the playoffs healthy because of how important and it’s not like, know, Dean Wade’s usage percentage, not going to crack any leaderboards, right? Right. That’s right. That’s right. DMP Russ, Dean Wade. is my...
Chris (12:45.736)
Y. Leonard, Joe L. Embiid, Bean Wade, okay.
Jimmy Watkins (12:54.778)
This is my political platform on which I will run for mayor of Wade Island.
Chris (12:58.734)
I think you make a good point though, because like if you’re talking about splitting up Jared and Evan, like what is the downside to that? Obviously everybody would point to the defense, right? But the way to not lose as much defensively when taking one of those guys off the floor is to have somebody else like Dean as the power forward. Somebody who can protect the rim at times, somebody who can guard the perimeter, somebody who can bang with power forwards.
He is statistically the best and most effective defender that the Cavs have, and he’s one of the most effective and best defenders in the entire NBA. So you feel like, you know, you’re not losing that much defensively if you split up Jared and Evan. And on top of that, you feel like you’re gaining something offensively. You’re gaining floor spacing. You’re gaining like another three point threat.
Not to say that Dean is going to go bang, you know, seven triples on a consistent basis once you get into the playoffs, but he threatens the defense in a different kind of way. And defenders have to honor that defenders have to go out there to the perimeter with him, as opposed to Jared Allen, where they just don’t have to go out that far. You know, they worry about different things when it comes to Jared, the rolling to the rim, the lob threat. Is he going to be in the dunker? Is he going to be at the elbow extended?
those kinds of things. But I agree with you, Jimmy. think part of the reason why the Cavs feel like they can get away more with these Evan by himself lineups is because they have somebody like Dean who can be a compliment to him on the defensive end of the floor and also a compliment to him on the offensive end of the floor.
Jimmy Watkins (14:45.138)
Two other small things I would say, again, mostly in line with Chris, Dean, then Max, Max’s playoff know-how, everything we just talked about in the opening segment. I love that guy’s basketball player. Important rebounder last year in the playoffs too, that kind of got overlooked. You need that from all over the place if you go a little smaller, like we just talked about, you need yards and smaller forwards to rebound. I’ll say two things. Isaac O’Coro definitely belongs in that.
in that third spot. But I do think as part of this philosophical shift the Cavs are undergoing right now where it’s still defense first but not defense everything. I wonder if there’s a little bit more negotiation for Kenny Atkinson to get a little bit more Sam Merrill and a little bit less Isaac Kikoro. It all depends on who you’re playing. If you’ve got, if the other team’s an offensive superpower, then yeah, you need Isaac out there to guard.
Chris (15:36.749)
Mm-hmm.
Jimmy Watkins (15:43.8)
You know, you’re Damien Lillard’s of the world, you’re Trey Young’s of the world. I mean, if it’s the Celtics, okay, Dean Wade guards one of the J’s, Azencora will probably guard the other. Like, he’s your best option, right? But I just, I think that’s interesting. Not that Sam Merrill belongs above Isaac on this list or in the hierarchy of Cavs’ mid-adlocation. just, that’s one thought I had. The other thing is like, what if Ty Jerome’s just the sixth man? like Ty Jerome has been playing
so freaking well to start this season. mean, him and Karras-Levert both could be in the conversation for sixth man of the year at the 25 game mark, which is, I mean, as dumb as the Dean Wade, DMP rest comment that I made was your 25 game straw poll on sixth man of the year might be even dumber, but they’ve both been really good is my point. And I think Ty, maybe this is just like the,
the allure of the unknown. Like we’ve just seen less of Ty Jerome in NBA settings. So I’m curious, like his number, he just can’t keep shooting like this. He’s doing it, but he just can’t. can’t, don’t, or maybe if he can, then yes, we should absolutely be on this conversation. But I’m just thinking like, what if Ty Jerome is steady Eddie for 82 games and Karis Lavert kind of reverts his efficiency or Lavert’s his efficiency for the fan of dumb jokes out there.
Chris (17:12.237)
Hey, y’all.
Jimmy Watkins (17:13.258)
What if, what if that happens? What if Karis LaVert has a frickin 0 for 6 in 28 minutes game? Or maybe two of them? I think Ty Jerome, there’s room for him to climb up on the ladder a little bit.
Chris (17:24.854)
Yeah, I mean, I think it’s good to have options, right? I think it’s good to have guys that you believe in, that you feel like you can count on coming off the bench at the back end of your rotation. And I think that’s part of the reason why Kenny is operating the way that he is during this regular season so that these guys can be prepared and so that he knows when he can go to them, right? He knows what he can get from them. He’s putting them in these sometimes uncomfortable spots.
but he’s putting them in these kinds of environments, these meaningful games to figure out what’s what and who plays well with who and how much he can trust them once you get into April, May in June. I do think that there is a bigger picture question that the Cavs are going to have to answer. And I don’t know if they’re going to get the answer until the playoffs actually roll around. And it’s hard to know for sure what the answer is because the answer may be different with a new coach.
But we have seen in the last two playoffs, multiple guys for the Cavs not be playable, or not be as playable as maybe you would like. So how much can the Cavs rely on Dean Wade? That’s a question. That’s a legitimate question. Because is he going to be there?
Is he going to be healthy enough? Is he going to be in a good mental state? Is it going to be in a good physical state after going through the grind of the regular season? That is a legitimate question because both times that they’ve needed Dean Wade the most, he hasn’t been there. And then they have to ask themselves the question of how much can we rely on George Nie? Like this is a guy who is really helpful for us in the regular season. He’s in
Different physical condition right now for the Cavs. He lost about 15 pounds coming into this season. He’s in a different mental state because he likes this offense. He likes this coaching staff. He likes the role that he’s in. He’s playing well. He’s providing a spark off the bench. He’s holding up a little bit better than he has in the past on the defensive end of the floor.
Chris (19:37.346)
But I think it’s a legitimate question when you start getting into a seven game playoff series and it’s about the other team trying to exploit your weaknesses, they’re going to attack George. Is that going to lead to him getting played off the floor? Can they count on him? And then Isaac Ikoro, another guy who has gotten played off the floor at various points during these last two playoff runs. So it’s interesting that the Cavs are going into this situation.
And there are like three guys that are in their rotation, fixtures of their rotation, that I think there’s a legitimate question about how much can we count on those guys? How much can we rely on those guys? And I don’t know what the answer is. And I don’t know if there’s just like these upgrades out there externally that are waiting for them. It may just be a situation where the Cavs get into the playoff environment and these guys just have to do it. They have to show it. They have to prove it.
But that’s kind of like a tricky spot for the Cavs to be in. To have three of your top eight guys and you’re sitting here wondering, how much can we really count on them when we get into the postseason?
Jimmy Watkins (20:47.588)
JP Bickerstaff’s gonna be watching the playoffs with a big old bag of popcorn. Okay? Because he’s gonna, it’s cool. Kenny Atkinson’s the cool new teacher in school. He hasn’t had to send anyone to the principal’s office yet. You walked in, you’re 21 and four, you’re playing fricking 10, 11 guys a night, everyone’s happy, everyone’s shooting better. That’s just not how the playoffs go. And so, you know, guys like George and Yang, guys like...
Sam Merrill, who to hear them tell it have been freed from JB Bickerstaff’s harsh rule. Well, someone’s getting put back into tension. It’s just a math equation at this point. can’t play, I guess you can, but most teams don’t play double digit dudes as many minutes as Kenny Atkinson is playing these dudes in the regular season. I think that’s a really good point Chris, it was fascinating to watch going forward.
Ethan Sands (21:45.231)
To go back to Jimmy’s point earlier about just how well these guys are shooting, right? And the continuation of the success is kind of going to tell what Kenny Atkinson is going to be able to do. Because Sam Mero right now is shooting worse than he did last year. He’s a 38.8 overall 3.0 % shooter for his career. He’s shooting 34.9%. Then you look at Ty Jerome. He’s shooting 47.1 % from 3.0.
Isaac Okoro, 46.3. And then Dean Wade, who we know struggled a little bit this season, 32.9. So you wanna talk about the ability to mix and match these guys. It will come down to a lot of who’s hot, who’s not, and who’s playing to their capabilities. But then you also pitch in, and I agree with you, the number one pick for this draft or this rotation group is Dean Wade. And while you guys were...
talking, I was putting together different rotation options that Kenny Atkinson could go to. And I think a lot of these are really stable, like Don, Darius, Max, Evan, Jarrett. If you go with that as your starting lineup, then you can throw out in the first rotation where Kenny Atkinson usually takes out Donovan Mitchell and Evan Mobley, then you can go to Darius, Karis, Isaac, Dean, and Jarrett. And then when Donovan comes back, you can go to Don, Sam,
Ty Jerome or Max, Max or Dean or George at the four, and then Evan Mobley. And then if you want to go back to a different lineup, you can go to Darius, Ty, Max, Dean, and Jarrett, depending on minute allocation and all those different things. All of those lineups. And obviously when the playoffs come around, is when and if everybody’s healthy and everybody’s playing to the numbers that they currently have, right? If we look into the future and we talk about the playoffs,
George Nieheng minutes, potentially get axed, because you have so many different options to play in the small ball, to have Dean Wade play in, to play Evan Mobley at the four and the five, Dean Wade coming off the bench refreshed, all these different options if Max Trues ends up coming back and earning that small forward starting spot, or if Kenny just realizes that having the depth off the bench be extended with Isaac, Karras, Dean, all these different guys.
Ethan Sands (24:11.489)
and how that can throw different looks at different teams. Chris and Jimmy, we both talked about the necessity of unpredictability for the Cavs and how that has made this team so difficult for teams to go up against. You add Max into that wrinkle, and it makes it a lot different because you have all these different options. How efficient do you think, and obviously we can’t pull out a crystal ball, but
Do you think that these rotations are going to make it easier or harder on Kenny Atkinson to make decisions in the future when it comes to who should be playing, who shouldn’t, and do I lean on who has been here most of the season?
Chris (24:53.666)
think Kenny’s hope is that these are difficult decisions, guys, because that means that the guys are playing well. That means that some of the things that he’s trying to do throughout the course of regular season, they’re working. I think that’s the way that Kenny would prefer it. And I think if we’re looking at what we’ve seen so far in the first 25 games, these are going to be tough decisions. I mean, these are delicate decisions.
You’ve got to find a way to deliver that message. If it comes down to this, you’ve got to find a way to deliver that message in a way that the guy is going to accept it. And you’re not going to lose him for the remainder of the playoffs because every single matchup is going to call for something different. Every opponent is going to call for something different. There might be a George and Yang matchup out there. And if you go away from him early on, like there’s a risk.
There’s always a risk in that. There might be, you know, a Sam Merrill matchup that’s just lingering out there at some point in the postseason, but you go away from him in the first series or something like that, there’s a risk involved. It’s tricky. It’s delicate. It’s a very, very difficult decision. You know, you can sit here today based on the first 25 games and you can say,
You know, there are a bunch of different guys that belong in this Cavs playoff rotation. How could you take George Nhiang out of the playoff rotation right now, given what he has done for this team in the first 25 games? Right. I mean, if you’re basing it off of that, sure, there are legitimate questions about that. But based on what he’s done for this coaching staff in this system, like how could you possibly go into the playoffs and say there’s not a spot for him? Now, again, this is a long season.
Jimmy Watkins (26:25.774)
by turning on last year’s playoffs, I’m sorry.
Chris (26:45.71)
There are bunch more games to play. There are some things that, you know, could ebb and flow throughout the course of this regular season. But based on what we’ve seen so far, George has been effective. George has been helpful. George has helped stabilize the bench. He’s one of the first guys that Kenny brings off the bench every single night. You know, that’s just hard to envision a situation where that guy’s not part of the playoff rotation going in.
But maybe that’s the way that it goes if Kenny’s going to shorten it that much. And you can say the same thing about Sam Merrill because of how important he’s been. You can say the same thing about Isaac Okoro and how important he started the majority of the games without Max Trus. You know what I mean? So the hope is that these are difficult decisions because that means the team is playing well and those guys are playing well. And I think they’re going to be difficult decisions. I do not envy.
Kenny Atkinson when he eventually has to make those decisions if he feels like he does have to make those decisions
Jimmy Watkins (27:50.724)
So I think Kenny hopes that they’re difficult decisions and I think he hopes that he is building the required to make those difficult decisions right now. By playing so many guys, by talking all off season about giving confidence, empowering players, giving everyone the leeway to explore on the camp, especially now.
We’re 21 and four guys. Go work out. See what you can do. That will do two things. Well, first, it will, as I just mentioned, it will give Kenny the credibility with these guys to say, hey, look, man, I have given you as much leash as I can all season. And in this playoff series, I’ve tried you a couple of times. It’s not working right now. So we’re going to go in a different direction. the hope is, and I think this makes sense,
that that will be better digested from a coach who has empowered, empowered, empowered the whole season. The other thing that it might do, it might actually clarify those, some of those decisions for him. Something like, Isaac Okoro, we just glassed over the fact that he’s shooting, was it 46 % from three? That’s just not real. That’s just not gonna keep happening. that’s the, exactly. Like, some of this stuff is just gonna level off and Kenny, keep telling everyone to keep shooting.
Chris (28:56.76)
Mm-hmm.
Ethan Sands (29:12.835)
Same with Ty Jerome at 47.
Jimmy Watkins (29:20.634)
Eventually people are going to start missing and then it becomes a little bit easy. it is if you, if the playoffs started today, I don’t know what the heck Kenny would do because he’s just got everyone firing on all cylinders right now. Fortunately, or maybe unfortunately, I don’t know. I think you might want the playoffs to start today when you’re playing like the best basketball team in the league. But from a rotation decision standpoint, fortunately, you don’t have to make that decision today.
You have a very long runway and this stuff is gonna play itself out to some degree, to some degree. I there are going to be difficult rotations. And by the way, as we know, playoffs very matchup dependent. It’s gonna depend on the series. It’s gonna depend on, mean, if there’s an injury on the other side, that can change your rotation from night to night. yeah, it’s gonna be, it’s gonna be difficult. It should be difficult. And Kenny is...
This is all very intentional. He’s doing this. This is another page straight out of the Steve Kerr playbook. know, Steve Kerr has been playing too many dudes in the regular season for a very long time. So that if Steve Kerr needs to break glass in case of emergency in the playoffs, or if he needs to yank someone who’s playing is typically a starter or a regular rotation guy, like there’s an understanding there. Like, Hey man, I like you as a player. I believe in you. I’ve done a lot of things that prove that.
Chris (30:24.057)
yeah.
Yeah.
Jimmy Watkins (30:46.668)
It’s just not right now.
Ethan Sands (30:49.471)
And I think that’s a great point. And it kind of goes back to my baseball lineup rotation, suggestion on a recent podcast when it comes to how Kenny could orient this based on matchups and all those different things. Obviously that’s not the traditional way of how things go, but with all the options that he has, like Jimmy said, matchups could play and could be taken into account when it comes to that. But.
I just want to say that I’m glad that we all have land on Dean Wade Island with Chris as our mayor. Because speaking of how much Dean Wade impacts this team felt like it was a hard topic to do last season with all the all everybody coming at us like, why would you play Dean Wade? And I think people are starting to understand with how much we’ve been raving about him this season. I mean, after last year’s after last year’s playoffs when he
Only played in three games. I wrote about how important Dean way would be to a playoff run being longer for the Cleveland Cavaliers and like to see that come into fruition is my goodness. It just feels good. Don’t it? But onto the next.
Jimmy Watkins (32:00.122)
Dean Wade, hold on. To the people of Dean Wade Island, I will be running against Chris during the next election and my platform will be on DNP Rest for Dean Wade. Okay?
Chris (32:06.177)
boy.
Well, enjoy.
Ethan Sands (32:08.815)
That’s your policy DNP rest
Jimmy Watkins (32:12.952)
That’s my policy. Also, Ethan, with all his baseball analogies, this guy misses baseball so much. It’s the winter meetings. Ethan’s just dying to talk about the Himalayas trade right now. He’s just dying.
Chris (32:13.326)
There will be no support.
Ethan Sands (32:24.78)
don’t do it, Chris is over here hurting. Chris is over here hurting about the Jimenez trade. I know he is.
Chris (32:32.174)
I saw that notification as my wife and I were driving to go take Elliot for a haircut and to get ice cream after the haircut as his reward and like I blurted out something. I’m very, very careful about the things that I say around Elliot because he repeats everything. Everything. And I blurted something out and it was borderline, but.
That was my reaction when I saw that come across on my notifications on my phone. I was very, very upset about it. And like, there’s some people that are, okay, I’m still going. There are some people out there that are going to justify it in some kind of way saying like, he doesn’t hit well enough for the money that he’s going to make into the future, blah, blah, blah. He is one of the best defensive players in all of baseball.
Ethan Sands (33:03.492)
All right.
Ethan Sands (33:07.0)
No, go ahead,
Chris (33:24.448)
And this is a pitching staff that pitches to contact and they need somebody like that in the field. And you could sit there and you could say, well, they have a bunch of middle infielders in the pipeline and give the opportunity to whoever it’s going to be, Schneeman or somebody else. They’re not Andre Cemenes. This loss is going to be felt. And the fact that the guardians are making these kinds of financial decisions. If I’m Jose Ramirez and I just took a hometown discount.
Jimmy Watkins (33:51.983)
Hmm.
Chris (33:52.994)
to stay with this team for the long haul. I’m pissed right now.
Jimmy Watkins (33:56.762)
It’s also just exhausting for a fan base to repeatedly be like, here’s a, a guy that we can actually build some rapport with. This is super fun. Wait, they traded him for who? Who’s that? Who’s this guy?
Chris (34:03.244)
Yeah, right.
Yeah. Spencer Horowitz.
Ethan Sands (34:06.767)
And what does that mean and what does that mean for the other guys on this roster that are known for being Cleveland guys Josh Naylor Are you gonna be around for a couple more years and all those different things? Obviously the people in the pipeline were the number one overall pick Travis Bazana who I got to cover a little bit last season Good player good, dude But is he going to turn out to be Andres Jimenez or is he gonna just be a better bat? Anyway, this we said that we could do a baseball podcast. This is not that
I wanted to, I was gonna get into a fun question anyway, so good on that. But Chris, as you were in Miami, you got to talk to Kevin Love and he came in to apologize to Evan Mobley because he stepped on his size 18 shoe, all these other things.
Chris (34:52.462)
So that’s like not the... Everybody ran with that note and everybody aggregated that as if that was the reason why Kevin went into the locker room. No, Kevin went into the locker room because he loves those guys and he has relationships with a bunch of different people inside the Cavs organization still. Steve Spiro and him very close. Kevin Love and the other coaches on the staff that were holdovers very, very close. Kevin Love and Darius Garland very close.
Ethan Sands (34:57.316)
you
Chris (35:21.026)
Kevin Love and Tristan Thompson did their little choreographed handshake from the finals years before the game, very close. So it wasn’t the reason why Kevin went into the locker room. He didn’t go in there specifically to apologize to Evan Mobley. That was part of what he did while he was in that locker room. He just went in there to hang out with guys that he has relationships with because that’s what NBA guys do.
Jimmy Watkins (35:47.842)
Aggregation culture is very dumb to begin with. We know this. But like, what kind of headline? Sorry, sorry. It’s dumb. Your job’s dumb. People have dumb jobs. There’s room in the world for dumb jobs, okay? You could argue, our jobs are dumb. Our jobs are more fun, cooler, cool or dumb, but they’re kind of dumb. just talked about baseball and the basketball podcast. We sound pretty dumb right now. But just like, even, okay.
Ethan Sands (35:54.659)
That’s people’s jobs, Jimmy, chill out.
Jimmy Watkins (36:16.708)
Are you even doing your dumb job well to be like, okay, I know the headline, Kevin Love apologizes to Evan Moe, like, who’s clicking on that? What are we doing?
Ethan Sands (36:27.215)
Anyway, the question from our subtexter, because of the relationships that Kevin Lowe has in the Cleveland locker room still, does it make any sense to bring him back to Cleveland? And he ends it with, I’m not sure how this fits with our new approach. Obviously, he would be a guy that comes off the bench. He would be a locker room guy. He would be an extension of the coaching staff. But
Chris (36:36.802)
Yes.
Ethan Sands (36:57.145)
Chris, do you see this as a logical fit when it comes to money, all these other things that go into getting a guy like Kevin Love back to a roster that is already filled, but could use a little bit more depth at the power forward position?
Chris (37:15.256)
Well, Kevin’s not the same player that he was a couple of years ago. You can tell that he’s toward the tail end of his career and I’m not sure if it’s one more year or two more years, but the end is coming very, very soon for Kevin. Watching him move around out there. He doesn’t move the same kind of way, kind of lumbery. I wonder if Miami is just trying to do what they can to manage him throughout the course of the regular season so that they can get him.
to play off basketball and maybe he can be an asset for them as a small ball center replacing Bam in the rotation when Bam goes to the bench or just, you know, a pick and pop guy with Tyler Hero or a floor spacing power forward. Like that skill set that he has is certainly valuable, but there have been questions about Kevin for years about how he’s going to hold up on the defensive end of the floor in a playoff environment, even when he was in the prime of his career.
and he was moving at a different pace than what he is right now. know, everything that I’ve gathered is that Kevin would be open to a return to Cleveland and finishing his career in Cleveland from the sentimental standpoint of everything, but.
think if you’re talking about what the Cavs may need to add to this roster, it’s length, it’s athleticism, it’s speed, it’s quickness. It’s guys that can match up with teams like the Hawks, teams like the Bucks and the Knicks and the Celtics. And at this stage of his career, it’s just not Kevin. Look, if it doesn’t cost anything and he’s got a very, very small contract, which is easy to match salary,
from a sentimental standpoint and from a depth standpoint and from a, a reliable veteran that’s going to be a good locker room influence and just a good dude. And he has a relationship with Max Drews and stuff like that. Like, sure. Kick the tires on it, but understand what the calves would be adding to this team and, and understand that the most impact that he could probably give.
Chris (39:30.21)
to this group based on the depth that they have, based on the talent that they have, is probably behind the scenes and not necessarily on the court. And I just don’t know that they need another one of those.
Jimmy Watkins (39:41.294)
Yeah, they have Tristan Thompson already who does that sort of stuff, frankly. They already have a guy like that. My question would be, I agree with what Chris is saying about Kevin Love being close to end of his career. How aware of that is Kevin would be my question. I’m serious. how, you know, star players in particular are often the last ones to know when they go.
Chris (40:01.379)
Mm-hmm.
Jimmy Watkins (40:09.69)
Particularly a guy like Kevin who morphed into like a role star, you know, a role playing star when he played with LeBron. Like he’s been spacing the floor for a while now, so it might not feel that different to him all the time. I don’t know how well he is aware of how well he moves or doesn’t move anymore because like, did we forget why this, why he’s on the heat in the first place? You know, cause like he was upset about his role.
He thought he still had more in the tank. So he went to the Cavs and said, hey, could you do right by me? They did. It was, you know, a pretty, pretty warm exit as far as those things kind of go. So now to, to leave a place where, mean, you know, mad respect to the, the key culture and all that. I’m never going to count them out in single playoffs. Here’s, don’t think the heat are going anywhere serious this year. So that would be the cell that you could go back to Cleveland and then make a deeper playoff run. But you’re over there.
the heat at least have something of a plan to use him as part of their rotation regularly. Like the Cavs, like this is gonna sound real disrespectful. Is Kevin Love better than George Neang right now? I think the answer’s no. Kevin Love, Kevin Love better than Dean Wade? No. We’re talking about the heat using him as a backup center. As you age, you tend to slide up the positional spectrum. The Cavs are pretty set on their center minutes. I don’t know if you guys have...
heard recently, but they got two of them. They got two of them that are all star quality. it’s, again, if you want to do like a heartwarming circle back, great. If you want to help this team win in a tangible manner, I don’t know you’re going to have the opportunity to do that. Maybe he’s like your...
Chris (41:41.155)
Yeah.
Chris (41:51.534)
Mm-hmm.
Jimmy Watkins (42:01.85)
You know, George and Yang let’s say George and Yang’s having another rough playoff series and Dean Wade is hurt Okay, and then maybe you got a great class in case of emergency and you know what? There are worse glasses to break in case of that emergency that a guy who has so much Institutional knowledge of how to play in the playoffs and can still light it up on the right night from from deep But it’s just like I to what end it would be cool to see for fans and it would be cool for Kevin to
Chris (42:25.464)
Mm-hmm.
Jimmy Watkins (42:32.09)
know, cement, I think everyone already knows he’s a Cleveland legend and that when he goes into Hall of Fame, he should go in as a Cav. But beyond that, if he’s really trying to play, I don’t think this is the place for him. We don’t want to recreate an awkward situation there. know what I mean? They’ve already left on good terms. Maybe just keep the terms good.
Chris (42:52.099)
Yeah.
Ethan Sands (42:58.69)
And I think.
Chris (42:58.76)
And to your question about is Kevin aware that it’s the end or it’s just about the end, look at the contract that he signed with Miami. I think he’s fully aware of it. He got the biannual exception, basically two years, $8 million for somebody like Kevin. Like that is an eye opener and that shows to me a level of understanding that he knows that that’s probably the final contract that he’s going to get.
If he finishes with Miami, I think he would be totally happy with that. He loves the organization. He’s very comfortable there He has a kid who is 18 months old a daughter that he adores He’s in Miami for the love of God, know, his wife is happy there in Miami as well So I think he would be totally fine playing out this contract that he just signed with the heat
and finishing his career with the Heat and kind of becoming Miami’s version of Eudonnis Haslem at the end of it.
Ethan Sands (44:02.127)
And just for a stats basis, with the, believe it’s either Kevin Love’s 16th or 17th season, it’s hard to tell with all of the bouncing around he did. But he averages 12 minutes a game and he’s only played in 12 games this season thus far. And he averages 37.8 % from three point range on 3.8 attempts per game from three. George Nying, 25 games this year, 20.6 minutes per game.
averages 36 % from three on 4.6 three point attempts per game. So I think it’s an interesting comparison, but I definitely think George has more left in the tank if that’s the conversation. And I think George understands that he wants to be doing more for this team than what Kevin Love has done already this year. But.
Chris (44:50.764)
Look, I mean, the other thing is we talked about this on the previous podcast. If the Cavs are going to go out and explore different options around the time of the trade deadline, one of them that they would consider is can we upgrade George? Right. That’s a legitimate consideration for this team. And it’s no offense to George, but we’ve seen in the playoff environment, him get played out of the rotation. So with that worry still attached and
with the Cavs having to consider that, they’re going to look and ask themselves, is there an upgrade out there that is affordable for us? Is there more insurance for somebody like Dean Wade if he’s not physically or mentally in the space that we need him to be in going into the postseason? That’s all about trying to upgrade the roster. Kevin Love is not an answer to that.
If you’re going to look to upgrade on George Niang or provide an insurance policy for Dean Wade, you’re going to look at like Dorian Finney Smith of the Brooklyn Nets or somebody. Somebody that you could legitimately say, that guy is a clear cut upgrade. That guy makes us better at a specific rotational spot. I don’t think you can say that about Kevin Love at this stage of his career.
Ethan Sands (46:06.135)
I agree. And to get into the last two questions, because I think we’re into the fun part of this podcast. They’re both from Dave from Tucson and Chris, the first one I could basically just ask you plainly, were you the only reporter that traveled to Miami for that last little break from like the writer perspective other than Torina Winters and that group?
Chris (46:29.28)
Yes. Yes I was. That has been a role that I’ve been in a lot over the last two years. Me solo. Me and Serena holding it down in the locker room.
Ethan Sands (46:31.257)
So when.
So when it so when it come Yes, a hundred percent so when it comes to the question of if the team stayed in Miami for a few days how many members of the Cavs press corps? Stayed with them in Miami for the extra time the answer with Chris in Cleveland would be zero. All right the next question Wow, okay didn’t know that but the other question from Dave in Tucson is one of the ways a team
Chris (46:50.818)
zero.
Chris (46:54.926)
Serena went home too.
Ethan Sands (47:04.249)
gets a buyout player to join them is if they are very good friends with someone on the team. And Chris, this is a way for you to flex your NBA player Rolodex. Who’s every Cavs player’s best friend who is not on their NBA team, not on the Cavs NBA team? Chris.
Chris (47:09.995)
Thank
Chris (47:23.948)
Well, I can tell you one who’s not going to be available because he’s playing for a team that is in contention in the Western Conference, but the Cavs would absolutely love to get him on this team and they have wanted him on this team in the past. Royce O’Neal and Donovan Mitchell are very, very close. Very close. So if you want to add another Donovan Mitchell related person to this locker room, Ty Jerome, George Niang, Max Shrews.
Rice O’Neal would be an obvious target. Is Joe Ingalls out there somewhere? What’s he doing? Him and Donovan are close. Mike Conley and Donovan are very, very close too, but Mike Conley is the starting point guard for the Minnesota Timberwolves. So this question is hilarious and it’s fun, but the guy has to be playing on a bad team so that he can actually get a buyout.
so that the team is going to be willing to give him an opportunity to latch on to a contender to chase a ring. And some of these relationships that these guys have, including Donovan, those players are playing on good teams, unfortunately, for the Cavs.
Jimmy Watkins (48:40.578)
entertained by the thought of Joe Ingalls as the Cavs new James Jones when they have LeBron. I like that. I would say I do know of one good player who’s on a bad team that is friends with a Cleveland Cavalier. That would be LeBron James. LeBron James knows Tristan Thompson pretty well. Last time I checked. The Lakers are going absolutely nowhere for the
Chris (48:43.508)
Yeah
Chris (48:59.086)
You
Jimmy Watkins (49:09.05)
Nth straight year. And I don’t know, had, we started up, there was a little stir. Was it Perk? Who sat on TV today? Started talking about LeBron trade rumors. I don’t, I don’t think LeBron, for sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don’t think LeBron’s, no, no, I know, I know. It’s just funny. LeBron, I don’t think LeBron is actually going anywhere. I think he’s actually pretty, I think he feels like he’s cemented his case as the Godin. I mean, as long as they’re playing, you know,
Chris (49:21.998)
Trade rumors are fine. LeBron is not taking a buyout.
What are you?
Jimmy Watkins (49:37.946)
playing slash playoff basketball. He’s reasonably content hanging out in LA. He really likes it out there. But I just, you know, I know Cavs fans like talking about LeBron coming back and if there was, don’t know, the Lakers are just in a rough spot right now. And if they were a normal team with a normal aging superstar, it would be very clear that it’s time for them to blow it up, but not a normal team, not a normal superstar. So shrug.
Chris (49:40.334)
Yeah.
Chris (50:03.211)
Mm-hmm.
Chris (50:07.298)
Yeah.
Ethan Sands (50:08.215)
Appreciate it, Jimmy. I have my headline for the podcast, LeBron James Clicks, let’s do it. No, just kidding. But, that go-
Chris (50:11.566)
you
I’m trying to see who else are even like logical.
Jimmy Watkins (50:17.242)
No, no, no, your headline is about Kevin Love apologizing to Evan Mobley. I thought we established this.
Ethan Sands (50:24.109)
No, no sir. But it’s funny.
Chris (50:26.05)
I’m trying to find other logical buyout candidates. I’m struggling with that right now. It’s only 25 games in the season. We don’t know who’s actually real and who’s not real. But the Wizards don’t have any that are appealing. Charlotte doesn’t really have any that are appealing. They’re gonna buy out Steph Curry or something like that?
Ethan Sands (50:29.965)
man.
Jimmy Watkins (50:44.378)
Grant Williams? Grant Williams is... Eh. that’s right, I forgot about Grant Williams. I forgot about that. Sorry, Grant Williams.
Ethan Sands (50:46.925)
He has an ACL tear, he’s out for the year. Yeah, he’s not coming back.
Chris (50:48.462)
He’s out for the year. He’s... Yeah... Do the Pelicans have anybody that’s a buyout candidate?
Jimmy Watkins (50:55.778)
jazz? What about the jazz?
Chris (50:58.764)
The Jazz probably have a bio-candidate or two. Any that are appealing? jeez. jeez.
Jimmy Watkins (51:00.538)
They have so, they’re deep. Colin Sexton, bring them home.
Ethan Sands (51:05.183)
No. I love the LeBron context just because it kind of brings back last season where he pulled up and everybody was like, he’s coming back. And he’s on the sideline talking to Savannah about, and I saw like a picture. think it’s one of the social media accounts from like the Cleveland fan base. And it’s like him talking to Savannah while like
Jimmy Watkins (51:08.921)
Young Bull.
Jimmy Watkins (51:17.658)
My goodness, that was ridiculous.
Chris (51:18.466)
Thank
Chris (51:31.948)
Mmm.
Ethan Sands (51:35.311)
on the sidelines like in Savannah that’s you know who you get to trade first George Yang. I’m like man there’s there’s so much going on.
Chris (51:40.899)
Yeah.
Jimmy Watkins (51:44.218)
Is John Collins, he’s too good to get bought out, right? He’s too competent. You can get like a second round pick. If John Collins, the jazz who traded for John Collins with like a second round pick, just trade him for a second round pick. Yeah.
Ethan Sands (51:47.951)
Who?
Chris (51:48.126)
Probably. I mean, I think they would prefer... Yeah, I think they would.
Ethan Sands (51:53.085)
yeah.
Chris (51:57.986)
I think they would prefer to trade him. Here’s a guy who’s, I don’t think he’s a buyout candidate because I think the organization likes him and they traded for him for a reason. And he’s got such a reasonable tradable contract, but I would not take my eyes off of Larry Nance Jr.
Jimmy Watkins (52:17.068)
Mmm.
Ethan Sands (52:19.683)
Bring him home. Is that the sign, Jimmy? Bring him home. All right.
Jimmy Watkins (52:22.51)
Bring him home. Bring him home. You can’t play comp-
Chris (52:25.59)
He’s not being used in Atlanta. He’s buried on the depth chart because they’re probably trying to showcase Clint Capella for a potential trade. But Nance is somebody who would fit in this system. Nance is somebody who, you know, can play some small ball five, but he can also play some power forward. He’s a better defender, obviously, than George Niang. He’s more versatile than George Niang. He’s kind of Dean weighty.
In terms of how much analytics like the defense that he brings to the table. So, you know, we’ve talked a lot about DeAndre Hunter and I think the Cavs would be in on those potential trade conversations and Bogdanovich as well. But know, Larry Ninch Jr. is another guy in Atlanta that I would keep an eye on if you’re looking for a little bit lower in the pecking order, not as much many, easy to match the salary a little bit.
Larry Nance Jr. is a logical fit for the calves. Let’s see, are there other ones?
Jimmy Watkins (53:27.992)
I like Larry Nance Jr. First of all, the Hawks just says like, do you have a useful power forward that we won’t use at all and then ship out for a low trade return? Send them here. Larry Nance Jr. is just John Collins 2.0.
Chris (53:32.12)
things.
Ethan Sands (53:43.983)
And I mean, we’re talking very low maintenance stats, right? He’s played in 10 games this year, two starts. He’s averaging, he’s averaging, he’s...
Jimmy Watkins (53:51.47)
He’s good.
Chris (53:51.798)
Yeah, that’s because, yeah, I mean, I think from what I’ve heard, that’s because the Hawks are trying to showcase the other guys for trades.
Ethan Sands (54:05.231)
And Larry Nance is averaging 55.2 % from three-point range on 2.9 attempts from that range. No.
Chris (54:12.558)
That doesn’t seem real.
Jimmy Watkins (54:12.836)
Leonard Junior also slept on as a leaper. He will put you on a poster. He is a fun dunker.
Chris (54:19.543)
You will.
Ethan Sands (54:21.581)
Yes. All right, guys. my goodness.
Chris (54:22.734)
Does San Antonio have any buyout candidates? They wouldn’t buyout Harrison Barnes, they would trade Harrison Barnes.
Jimmy Watkins (54:25.37)
Chris Paul. Chris Paul.
Ethan Sands (54:29.963)
No, Chris Paul is so happy in San Antonio. my goodness. No way.
Chris (54:36.428)
Yeah, I mean, the buyout market is going to be interesting. I wonder who’s going to make their way onto that market because there’s always this belief from fans that somebody that they sign in the buyout market is going to impact the rotation or be like a significant difference maker, Danny Green. The number of guys that have gone to a new place after a buyout.
Jimmy Watkins (54:42.063)
Bye.
Jimmy Watkins (54:46.382)
Mm-hmm.
Chris (55:04.086)
and actually like done something of note or been some kind of impact player, that list is very, very small.
Jimmy Watkins (55:13.626)
It’s, I think it’s honestly, MBA, this is a podcast for another day, but I think the MBA has like a hipster fan problem where we’re all, there’s a bunch of people just standing on each other’s shoulders on Twitter saying, no, I know the most about niche MBA rules. No, I know the most about niche MBA rules. So like we get out of trade season, we get out of like the trade machine, people run out of things to do with their hands on the internet and they go, well, okay, the buyout market, the buyout market could, you know, who’s your favorite?
Who’s your favorite ninth man who’s in the 10th spot in the rotation? Just like who cares?
Ethan Sands (55:49.881)
Who cares? Indeed. And that’s where we’ll wrap up today’s episode of the Wine and Gold Talk Podcast. And for listeners that want to contribute to a survey about the podcast where you can give your feedback on everything we got going on, go to https://tinyurl.com/WGPod. That’s https://tinyurl.com/WGPod. And remember to become a Cavs Insider and interact with Chris.
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