CLEVELAND, Ohio — In this episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast, Ethan Sands, Chris Fedor, and Jimmy Watkins discussed the Cavs’ roster, focusing on the development of young players like Emoni Bates.
Takeaways:
Emoni Bates has significant raw talent but needs development.
Roster dynamics can significantly impact player opportunities.
The Cavs are in a championship window and need ready players and Bates’ G League efficiency raises questions about his readiness.
Shaquille O’Neal’s comments on Bates were criticized as uninformed.
The Cavs’ future hinges on their ability to develop young talent. Evan Mobley’s presence provides a high floor for the team.
The Cavs need players with size and defensive presence.
Two-way players must consistently prove their value to earn minutes.
The importance of 3-point shooting in modern basketball cannot be overstated.
Jaylon Tyson’s aggressiveness must be balanced with control. Off-ball defense is a critical area of improvement for Tyson.
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Ethan Sands
What up Cavs Nation? I’m your host, Ethan Sands, and I’m back with another episode of the Wine and Gold Talk Podcast. And you know him, you love him, Chris Fedor, Jimmy Watkins. Join me again. And I liked how Jimmy described today’s episode before we got on. Yesterday, we were very macro. Today, we’re gonna be very micro as we dissect the roster of the Cleveland Cavaliers.
It’s because, as we mentioned yesterday, well-known entities, well-known people have been calling out the Cavs in multiple different capacities over the last couple of months. This time, it was NBA legend Shaquille O’Neal, taking to his podcast, or a podcast, I should clarify, I don’t remember which podcast it was, but taking to a podcast to call out the Cavs.
Jimmy Watkins (01:00.919)
I think it’s his. I think it’s his. I’m not sure. It’s like something, the big something. That sounds... it’s literally the big something? Okay. Yeah, that’s what I’m saying.
Chris Fedor (01:08.48)
If it’s the big something, it’s his, right? He’s got all those... I don’t know. If it is the big something, you know it’s his, because that’s what all of his nicknames started with.
Ethan Sands (01:08.492)
Yeah, I-
Ethan Sands (01:13.847)
No.
Ethan Sands (01:20.75)
So, whoever’s podcast it is, even if it is his, he took to that platform to call out the Cav GF, not citing names because Shaq didn’t know who it was, clearly. And if I should quote his, and I can’t because of the language, but what the F are you doing? Why is Emoni Bates in the effing G league? What the F is going on? This
MF can play the last game you put him in he had seven three-pointers. Don’t you think you need that for a championship? Guys, we’ve talked about Emoni Bates since he’s entered the NBA I’ve gotten the chance to watch it Emoni Bates dating back to his high school days. I think there’s so much talent There’s so much pure talent within Emoni Bates as a score, but obviously the basketball is multiple aspects that have to be
You have to be successful at multiple different aspects of the game to have success in the NBA We’ve seen that with Craig Porter jr. We’ve seen that with Jaylon Tyson We’ve seen that when multiple different guys at the bottom of the rotation or not in the rotation For the Cavs and g-league guys Luke Travers just getting his first NBA taste last year after being in our in Australia for multiple years before that What do you guys think is the pathway for Emoni Bates and these kinds of guys like Craig Porter Jr. and Jaylon Tyson to get meaningful playing time in the next few years. Because as we know, the Cavs have a championship window that may or may not be a window in itself at all, as we’ve discussed, because of the Donovan Mitchell player option, because of how they’ve been playing over the last few seasons in the playoffs. What do you think?
Can these guys help this team in some capacity? Maybe this year or are we looking down the road?
Chris Fedor (03:24.364)
I think the idea that Shaq brings up about, you have young players in your system that if things happen to some of your mainstays, that those guys are ready and capable of stepping up? I think that’s a sound conversation. I think that’s an interesting conversation, especially for a team like the Cavs that are projected to have the third highest salary in the NBA for next year, projected to be one of three teams.
that are in the second apron, you’re going to have to find cheap help. You’re going to have to find guys that don’t make a lot that are able to get some kind of playing time and make some kind of on court impact. That was part of the beauty of Dean Wade early on in his career. That was part of the beauty of Lamar Stevens developmental fines for this organization. But they were at a different stage back then than they are right now.
It’s not championship or bust necessarily, but it’s pretty close to that for the Caps. When you’re this deep into the luxury tax, when you’re going to be a second apron team, you got to compete for a championship. That’s what it’s about. It’s not about meaningful reps for young guys. It’s not, get them developmental opportunities on the court. The developmental opportunities either come behind the scenes or in the G league, which is
how a lot of these top tier teams operate. This isn’t the Chicago Bulls here. This isn’t the Washington Wizards. This isn’t the Utah Jazz. This isn’t the Charlotte Hornets. This is a different kind of team. And I think for Emoni Bates, for Luke Travers, for Nae’Qwan Tomlin, they need things to happen with the guys that are head of them on the depth chart to get any kind of meaningful opportunity. Jaylon Tyson was a first round pick. He was the 20th overall pick.
and he couldn’t find consistent playing time. That’s just the reality of the situation that some of these young guys are in. And I think that’s okay. But if the Cavs need them, if something happens in front of them on the depth chart, then maybe possibly they get some kind of opportunity. But I don’t think criticizing the GM who is Mike Gansi or president of basketball operations, Kobe Altman.
Chris Fedor (05:46.912)
For not playing Amani Bates or thinking Amani Bates was going to be some kind of difference between the Cavs winning the Eastern Conference semi-finals against Indiana or losing them is just asinine
Jimmy Watkins (06:01.749)
It’s the lowest common denominator basketball take. It’s, respect Shaq in many different arenas. He’s, I think he’s honestly, is a podcast for another day. I he’s historically become underrated. He’s one of the greatest players of all time. Top 10 in my book. He’s been an incredible post-career success business-wise. He’s been in a a great addition to Inside the NBA, which
Chris Fedor (06:16.428)
No.
Jimmy Watkins (06:30.327)
Like it’s not easy to join a show that’s already great and make it better. He has, he’s done that. And by the way, if you watched the inside documentary they did during the playoffs, think last year, that was not a smooth transition at first. Like that was, it was real trial and error happening there. I have many good things to say about Shaq. I was born in LA during the three peets. came up, I became a basketball fan while him and Kobe were dominating. I love Shaq.
Chris Fedor (06:35.554)
Mm-hmm.
Jimmy Watkins (07:00.587)
My, this is so true. My first dog’s name was Shaq because he was like 6′3 when he stood up and he was like 150 pounds, massive dog. His name was Shaq. It’s a dumb take. It’s a really dumb take. Step one, you can’t criticize any GM you can’t name. I think that’s pretty clear barrier for entry, pretty reasonable barrier for entry. Step two.
Emoni Bates is not even on top of the two-way depth chart. Jaylon Tyson essentially was drafted over him. Emoni Bates is taller. Given Emoni Bates’ frame, it’s harder to project his position. I would think Big Wing, his height tells you he could eventually be a stretch four, but we’re so far away from that, that just seems silly to say.
But by the way, the Cavs did sign a two-way guy for the stretch run and it wasn’t Emoni Bates. So like, you’re not first, you’re not second, and who knows what the draft could bring in years to come. like, Emoni Bates gets brought up this way because he had a high profile coming out of high school. He was number one player in his class. He was compared to Kevin Durant.
Chris Fedor (08:23.118)
That’s right.
Jimmy Watkins (08:28.971)
He had some off court troubles when he was in college. That and his inefficiency. And I actually don’t think the Memphis situation was very good for him. And I think going back to Eastern Michigan for a couple of different reasons where he’s from was a bad decision. Maybe it was his only decision. I don’t know. When he went into the poor, I can’t imagine that like there’s got to, there’s, there’s a bunch of reasons why a player like that ends up at a Mac school. But, but one of them can be.
the way things went at Memphis could be part Penny Hardaway, part him. You know what I mean? But start here. Dude shoots 38 % in the G League. What are we doing? What are we doing? Now, look, he shoots 10 threes a game. So most of those are threes. And I haven’t checked the tail of the tape on Emoni’s G League in a while, but I’m sure a lot of those are also pull-up twos. That’s the shot diet. So.
Chris Fedor (09:08.566)
In the G League. Yeah.
Jimmy Watkins (09:26.973)
That’s a better percentage for those kinds of shots is still not good. let’s, before we, three to five years is probably the right conversation for Emoni. Whether he wants, mean, Emoni also quote tweeted Shaq’s clip and said, appreciate the love of it, which I think is the right thing to do. didn’t like, he didn’t like co-sign and say, yeah, play me. But he also respected that a legend gave him a shout out. But let’s, can we see efficient scoring in the G league?
Because that’s the thing he’s supposed to be good at. Like Ethan mentioned that you need to be well rounded. There’s nothing rounded right now. He’s kind of still a lump of clay and that’s okay. He’s really young and he’s taking a really hard path into the league. But we’re just not even close to having this conversation right now with him.
Chris Fedor (09:55.278)
Really.
Chris Fedor (10:12.076)
No, we’re not. 21 years old, a former second round pick, Emoni Bates is where he should be. He should be in the G League, away from the spotlight, where he can play through his mistakes, where he can get consistent playing time, where he can work on his game the way that he needs to work on his game to see if maybe, possibly, that will ever translate to the NBA level. But it’s not like he’s the G League MVP. It’s not like he’s first team all G League.
It’s not like he’s G League most improved player. It’s not like he was a performer of the week or something. It’s not like he’s going down to the G League and he’s turning heads so much that he’s making it a conversation or he’s making it difficult for the Cavs. You know what I mean? Like there are so many guys down in the G League that are better than Emoni. That are more ready for the NBA than Emoni. The G League MVP can’t play in the NBA.
The G League MVP can’t get time because he’s on the Boston Celtics. That’s just the reality of the situation that he’s in. Amani is on a team that has championship aspirations. Amani is on one of the best teams in the Eastern Conference and he’s 21 years old and he’s a former second round pick. And there are so many different things that he needs to work on in his own game before he can even think about possibly, maybe, becoming an NBA player. But at this point,
There are legitimate questions as to whether he will ever be an NBA player.
Jimmy Watkins (11:45.591)
How about this? 610.170. No. Right there. No.
Ethan Sands (11:52.27)
Well, he’s up to 196. That’s an old thing. He’s up to 196.
Chris Fedor (11:57.528)
Darius Garland is 6 foot 1 and he weighs 192.
Ethan Sands (12:01.666)
Right.
Jimmy Watkins (12:02.059)
I’m just telling you what Basketball Reference is telling me about Emoni Bates. I’m just telling you.
Ethan Sands (12:05.551)
I know, but as of last summer, he definitely put on more weight. We talked about this last year.
Chris Fedor (12:11.084)
He’s not fast enough, he’s not explosive enough, he doesn’t have a good enough first step to consistently play small forward, and he’s way too thin and wiry to play power forward.
Jimmy Watkins (12:11.233)
Sure, but, but...
Jimmy Watkins (12:24.373)
And 196 according to Hoomst would be my.
Ethan Sands (12:27.335)
according to this scale, according to this scale that like we did stories on this all of last summer. I...
Jimmy Watkins (12:34.551)
I remember Emoni but I bet you I bet you will hear more about it this summer. I bet you will hear more. I want to see the scale that tells me that Emoni Bates is 196 pounds.
Chris Fedor (12:39.18)
You
Ethan Sands (12:45.556)
All right, let me find that picture and I’ll send it to you, for sure. I do want to mention that we’re going to be doing like different series of breakdowns of each player throughout the summer as we need more topics to discuss about their positives, their negatives, what they can do to improve and especially what they can do specifically to help the Cavs get to where they want to go, especially if the Cavs...
decide to run it back with the majority of this roster. Guys, I want to do that now, but for the G League guys, the two-way guys and the bottom rotation guys, right? So Jaylon Tyson, Craig Porter Jr., Emoni Bates, Luke Travers and Nae’Qwan Tomlin. And we can start with Emoni, obviously. For me, as I mentioned, he is a... Chris, we’ve talked about this since I started covering this tape.
If you watch Emoni Bates in practice, it is he’s one of the best shooters you will ever see because he doesn’t miss. But then you put him into these scenarios where people are guarding him, where people are doing other things and it gets sporadic and his jump shot as much as he works on it doesn’t look repeatable. It looks like he’s either throwing it or rather than shooting it or he’s doing something different each time with depending on whatever the defender is doing, which
In some cases it’s fine, but as a three point shooter, you want to have consistency in that shot as best as possible. That’s the one thing. So I think getting a better, more consistent shot, even though you have a great shot, it goes in on occasions. And as Shaq mentioned, that you can go offers five to seven threes in a game, depending on the scenario. But the biggest thing is what we’ve been talking about is the strength and the defense. And for me, the defense is well above everything else because
In my eyes, Emoni Bates isn’t a four, he’s a three, he’s a small forward, and he has to be able to defend on the opposite end for that to be the case, right? And that’s something that we have not seen from him. And I think to be able to get to the next level, to be able to become an NBA end of bench guy and then earn your way or whatever, you have to be able to play both sides of the ball, especially in today’s NBA, as much as the offense is growing.
Ethan Sands (15:11.682)
You have to be able to not be another target, especially on a team that feels like it has too many of those already.
Chris Fedor (15:20.75)
also just wonder if the idea of Amani and the theoretical skill set of Amani is just never going to match up to Amani the player.
Because look, the idea is a long, semi-athletic, floor spacing, prolific three-point shooting can kind of create his own shot like a bigger wing. That idea is interesting, right? But then you start seeing it more in NBA games and you start seeing some flaws against even G League competition and you ask yourself, is it ever going to come together?
It didn’t come together in college, despite all of the hoopla surrounding him. It hasn’t come together that kind of way yet in the G League. He just may always be the guy who just never materializes to become the player that a lot of people projected him to be. He wouldn’t be the first.
Jimmy Watkins (16:27.159)
There’s also like an environment conversation to be had here. Like the Cavs clearly have demonstrated that they know how to develop young talent. The list goes on and even these kind of fringe type players like Dean Wade is a massive success story. Craig Porter Jr. from where he started already looks like a hit.
Like he looks like a guy, Craig Porter Jr. is much, much, much closer to being an NBA rotation player than he might be. I think if Craig Porter, Craig Porter Jr. was on a bad team, he would be a rotation player in the NBA. He comes in on a team where the roles are like stamped, established. And he comes in, never really knows when his number is going to get called. And it’s usually like someone misses a game here or a rest here or someone is in foul trouble, whatever. And he holds his own.
Chris Fedor (17:01.059)
Mm-hmm.
Jimmy Watkins (17:26.569)
out there. For Amani though, for specifically his type of game, like a big part of his cell is, I can get my own shot. You’re just not going to do that here. Like probably ever. The next iteration of the Cavs, even as we talk about the precarious position the Cavs kind of find themselves in with the clock ticking on Donovan.
Chris Fedor (17:37.559)
Mm-hmm.
Jimmy Watkins (17:53.865)
and the roster’s kind of stuck unless you trade a big piece. Like, I’m trying to think, like, what’s the worst case scenario of like the next three to five years for the Cavs? At the end of it, you probably still at least have Evan Mobley. You know?
Chris Fedor (18:10.742)
Yeah, and he protects you from completely crumbling.
Jimmy Watkins (18:14.679)
Right, exactly. His defense gives you such a high floor and the tantalizing potential he has gives you a high ceiling. And you’re always going to have some, like if you have Evan Mobley, you’re always going to be trying to build around him, which means you’re going to have other shot creators, even if, you know, five years from now, Donovan Mitchell and Darius Garland could still be gone. And I would still bet that the odds are long that Emoni Bates is in a position on this team where he’s being consistently asked.
to go get one. Like if he is, he’s like a sixth man type, I get. Like that’s like, we’re reaching for a different galaxy in terms of ceiling on that one. he’s just not in a great, like if Emoni Bates, Emoni Bates on a tanking team, just like if he could go cam Thomas it up for a little while, I think that would be a nice situation for him and help him develop into, like help him iron out his game and help him learn what not to do. He might develop.
the worst habits you’ve ever seen. Cam Thomas might never throw a pass for his entire career because of what Brooklyn let him do the last couple of years. He actually was a little better at that this year. Cam Thomas is just like my go-to gunner guy. But Emoni’s just, the role, like we’ve talked about with Jaylon Tyson in the past, the role that Emoni Bates would theoretically have on this team and the player that he is are just two drastically, drastically different things.
Chris Fedor (19:42.262)
And the other thing is I just don’t think he can create a niche as a defensive stopper. You know, that’s something that Dean Wade created for himself. That’s something that Lamar Stevens a couple of years ago created for himself. Lamar Stevens was a prolific scorer in college. He’s one of the all time leading scorers in Penn State history. But coming to the NBA, he knew that his pathway to playing time, to any potential spot in a rotation, it was not going to be scoring the basketball.
It was not, he needed to find a different way to get on the floor. And he found that toughness, switchability, defense. And he tried to turn himself into like a rugged defender. And the same thing with Dean Wade. I don’t think he ever saw himself as becoming the white blanket, the defensive stopper for this organization. But he realized the situation that he was in, he wasn’t going to score.
He wasn’t gonna be a prolific three point shooter. How can I make a mark for myself? How can I carve out a role that may not be there for me, but I create for myself? I do so many positive things that it makes the coaching staff feel like they could make a spot for me. And for Dean, it was on the defensive end of the floor. For Dean, it was doing all the little things.
For Dean, it was being a connector on the offensive end, a trigger, somebody who, yeah, he’s not a prolific three point shooter or something like that, but he finds other ways. He doesn’t need the ball in his hand, so he can kind of blend into the fabric of a five man lineup. All of those things, when you’re a bottom of the rotation guy, when you’re an end of bench guy, you have to find your thing. And I just don’t know that
There’s something else that Amani can go to that is something other than shot creation. I just don’t know that he can be a defensive stopper. I don’t know if he can be a switchable defender. I don’t know if he can be a rebounder. I don’t know if he can be an offensive trigger man. I just think, I just think the things that he does best, I don’t know when the Cavs would ever
Jimmy Watkins (21:43.829)
Here.
Chris Fedor (22:06.124)
have a desperate need for those kinds of things.
Jimmy Watkins (22:09.857)
Here again, I point to the scale. Ethan has since texted me a picture of the scale that Emoni Bates was standing on. I have other scale thoughts. We can talk about how your weight fluctuates over the summer versus while you’re playing basketball over the course of the season. I’m not going to make this an entire podcast about what Emoni Bates really weighs, but...
Chris Fedor (22:21.862)
Ha!
Jimmy Watkins (22:29.877)
Whether he’s 6′10″, 170 or 6′10″, 196, if he’s 6′10″, 215, he’s still too small. He’s still too small. You’re getting run through. That is like as a wing defender in the NBA baseline, you’re getting, you just can’t stop people. Because NBA wings are so strong and they know every, and they look at him and they know exactly how to go at him.
Chris Fedor (22:58.402)
Right.
Jimmy Watkins (22:58.411)
And they know exactly how to exploit his, their strength against his. We’re just really, and by the way, if he’s ever going to be a guy who creates shots, you have to have the strength to not get knocked off your spot as well. having that, have that is such a core piece of an, of an NBA players skillset that we don’t think about. And clearly he’s working on it. That’s good, but.
Chris Fedor (23:10.956)
Yeah, play through physicality. Yeah, exactly.
Jimmy Watkins (23:25.791)
He’s still a ways away on that and he’s a long ways away on other things.
Chris Fedor (23:30.762)
I think given the current roster composition, the two out of the rotation players that are worth discussing in any capacity are Jaylon Tyson and Craig Porter Jr. Other than that, I we’re talking about guys who are going to have to continue to develop behind the scenes in a significant way before even getting a sniff on an NBA floor consistently.
Ethan Sands (23:54.826)
I would add Nae’Qwan Tomlin to that list just because of his versatility and his ability to defend. And I’ve been a Nae’Qwan Tomlin guy for a while and his story is great, but I think truthfully, his ability to shoot from beyond the arc, there was a point where me and Jimmy were trying to figure out if he had missed a three pointer yet. Sure, he didn’t get a whole lot of opportunities to take any, but when he was on the floor, he was making them.
his defensive capabilities and his length, his size, his arm, his wingspan, could be extremely helpful to a defense. again, talking about the weight and the scale, he’s not somebody that’s necessarily gonna get pushed around by too many power forwards. He will get pushed around by guys like Yannis and Joel and Bede, sure. But I think he’s a guy that could hold his own in a backup role, in a backup, backup role on this team if needed.
especially if this team decides to go away from Dean Wade, you still need someone with length. You still need someone with size, that can play not only offense and take shots when asked upon, but needing to have a defensive presence in the painted area alongside Evan Mobley or Jared Allen, to be maybe even, maybe even if you just have him play a backup role to Evan Mobley as the foreman alongside with Jared Allen and you say, Hey,
You’re not necessarily gonna be the main defender on the back end, but we want you to come be a help defender and figure out whether or not you can play in that role. And if you’re better as a help defender than being the one that’s being mainly attacked in the painted area.
Jimmy Watkins (25:38.315)
Okay, so maybe you’re gonna send me another scale here, but Mayquon Tomlin weighs the same as Sam Merrill according to basketball reference. So again, I just say no. there’s just certain, it’s like a blink test for me. You could like, Evan Mobley, not super light, makes up for it with generational lateral quickness for his size and elite defensive IQ and incredible length.
And he’s, I mean, one defensive player of the year. don’t need to detail all of Evan Mobley’s greatness, but like, if you’re a fringe player, all of the measurables matter more, because if you were able to overcome that, like, it probably would have happened already. You’re building up a lot. You need to build up your skill set, of course, but like, there are certain barriers. You just need to clear, like...
Chris Fedor (26:11.596)
Mm-hmm. Right.
Chris Fedor (26:21.346)
Mm-hmm.
Jimmy Watkins (26:36.779)
Baseline, need you to clear this for us to have the conversation.
Ethan Sands (26:40.706)
But this was Nick Guantanamo’s first year in the NBA, right? First year in the G League, first year in the NBA.
Jimmy Watkins (26:47.348)
Understood, understood. Like, it’s a long view though. It’s a long view.
Ethan Sands (26:52.236)
Yeah, I’m not saying like this is like next year. He’s I’m just saying of the guys that are like closer to being ready. I think the list is obviously either Craig Porter, Junior, Jaylon Tyson, whoever you want to put one to.
And then you have Nae’Qwan Tomlin, everybody else behind them. Because to me, I still think Luke Travers has a long way to go as well if we’re doing these kinds of comparisons. And if we’re doing the weight thing, we can go down the Cavs roster and question the weight of some of these guys, especially when we talk about the front court. But that’s not what we’re doing here. And I get when you’re saying, Jimmy, the French players, it matters a little bit more and all these things. But.
In this conversation, think Nae’Qwan deserves some credit for his ability to come in, be a G League guy, get a two way, and then have the potential to be ready to step into a smaller yet bigger role for him in this coming season and in seasons to follow as well.
Chris Fedor (27:52.046)
Well, stepping into a role this coming season requires a lot to happen in his favor. Evan Mobley is the starting power forward and he’s going to play 30 to 35 minutes a night. Then behind him is DeAndre Hunter and he’s going to be close to 30 minutes a night. And then there’s Dean Wade who can play multiple positions who has proven more at the NBA level than somebody like Nae’Qwan. So I think part of his issue and some of these other guys that we’re talking about is
Their minutes are blocked. Their minutes are blocked by more reliable, more trustworthy places. And if something happens where the Cavs move on from Dean Waite, all right, now there’s not as many guys to leap over on the depth chart. Just like when you’re talking about Jaylon Tyson, if the Cavs do end up trading Isaac Okoro, finding somebody to take on that salary, then it’s one less impediment to him getting playing time.
But when you’re talking about the power forward spot in particular, have two of the six most important players on this roster occupy a bulk of those minutes and that makes it complicated. Dean Wade at times struggled to get consistent minutes because it becomes a math equation. And sometimes there are just other guys in front of you that...
that the coaching staff prefers more and the coaching staff has more faith in and that faith in most cases has been earned.
Jimmy Watkins (29:27.083)
We also need to mention that with any of the guys that we’re talking about here, like we’re talking two way guys, fringe guys, in any off season you could just be drafted over. Like you’re-
Chris Fedor (29:33.198)
Mm-hmm.
Chris Fedor (29:40.044)
God in this offseason you could find somebody on the minimum that has more NBA experience or more NBA readiness.
Jimmy Watkins (29:44.919)
Yes. Yeah, a minimum. I saw when Chris was tweeting out the workout guys for some of these second round picks, what if Cliff Amore from Alabama and Rutgers, what if he’s just more ready as an NBA rim running, minutes eating kind of guy? He’s older. He played a lot of college ball. You could just get drafted over. You could just get to have like...
Chris Fedor (29:57.143)
Hmm.
Jimmy Watkins (30:14.615)
If the Cavs hit on a minimum, they’re all like, in some regard, yeah, you have earned some keep with this franchise and they are investing in you. And if you’re a two-way guy, they have your eye on you. like even there could be another G-league guy that they find and stash and that just jumps you. like, is like the lineup as we see it right now, the two-way guys, but like,
Chris Fedor (30:18.125)
Yes.
Chris Fedor (30:43.96)
Right.
Jimmy Watkins (30:44.053)
that this is kind of like the life of a two-way guys that your place in this league is never certain.
Chris Fedor (30:51.534)
Yeah, I mean, there could be training camp cuts and some team could have a little bit more depth at a specific position and they can’t hang on to a guy and the Cavs are like, that guy’s been on our radar in the past. That’s a guy that we worked out prior to a draft at some point. That’s a guy that we’ve been monitoring. That’s a guy who in a different situation where there’s not as much of a logjam at his position, maybe he would be on an NBA roster. Those things happen as well.
And I think for the Cavs, they might take that approach of, we’ll wait and see. We’re not committed necessarily to these two-way contracts.
Ethan Sands (31:33.326)
I think that’s all great points. And as I said, I wanted to get into a little bit about all of the two way guys and allow all of the necessities to just get better. Because as we know, this Cavs team and this Cavs organization has been built on player development. that’s something that Kobe Altman said in his end of season press conference, right? Internal development is something we’ve always banked on and we’re gonna continue to bank on it. So, Craig Porter Jr. and Jaylon Tyson, as we mentioned, are two of the top end of rotation.
off rotation guys, where do you feel like those two guys can improve the most to potentially be ready this coming season for spot minutes or if the Cavs need Craig Porter Jr. Especially when we talk about Darius Garland being out four to five months and however that heals and all these different things. I think Craig Porter Jr. especially in this coming season is going to be important again and I mentioned it before.
It felt like year two was more of a rookie season than year one with all the injuries that had the Cavs dealt with and the opportunities because he had less minutes. played in the same amount of games, which was interesting as from year one to year two, but he had less minutes, less shot attempts and all these different things. What do you think for Craig, do you think is the most important thing for him to get to the opportunities that he wants? And for me, it’s just efficiency and consistency from beyond the arc.
Chris Fedor (32:59.66)
Yeah, it’s the three point shot. It’s keep teams from going under screens. Craig has historically been a really good pick and roll player, a really efficient pick and roll player. And you can see flashes of that. He’s at his best attacking downhill. He’s at his best when he can use some of his craftiness and keep the defender on his hip, kind of the Ty Jerome type thing. But he’s got to find a way to make defenses respect his outside shot.
So that they’re just not repeatedly going under these screens. and, some of that comes with confidence. Some of that comes with the coaching staff instilling that confidence in him that he can take those shots within the flow of the offense. But that’s what it is for Craig. That’s what it’s been since he came into the NBA. There are interesting things that he has interesting things that he has in his toolkit, but
I think the three point shot is something that makes him easier to guard and could potentially take away the thing that he does well, which is run the pick and roll, get downhill, finish at the rim, stuff like that.
Jimmy Watkins (34:14.049)
Craig Porter Jr. is like a player from a different era. He’s like an old school true point guard kind of guy. his college rebounding numbers were kind of crazy. Yeah, he’s a cool basketball player. I like the blueprint here. But in 2025, you gotta make shots. You gotta make shots, you gotta defend.
Chris Fedor (34:26.584)
Great. Same with the block numbers.
Chris Fedor (34:32.366)
.
Jimmy Watkins (34:43.979)
I think Craig, I mean, he plays so infrequently that it’s hard to get a real grasp on him. He makes plays on defense that you notice, which is nice. He’s active. He gets deflections. You feel him. But even if it’s not like a, the tricky part is he’s never really been, even in college, wasn’t really a high volume three point shooting guy. He would take like, I don’t know, three a game, which is more than that in a,
Chris Fedor (34:53.272)
Mm-hmm.
Jimmy Watkins (35:13.175)
you know, 20 minute half sport and shoot like 35 % from three at 36 maybe when at his best. I’m trying to remember, but that’s it’s that or like, I’m wondering now, you know, Thunder Pacers is top of mind. Could Craig Porter Jr. Do like some TJ McConnell stuff eventually? Like, he just, can he just jitter around, get paint touches?
Chris Fedor (35:39.117)
Mm-hmm.
Jimmy Watkins (35:41.719)
you know, make, make the same weird little TJ McConnell pull up middies. I TJ McConnell’s made a 10 year career on this, uh, of this stuff. the other thing about this for, for any player in this situation, but for like a Craig Porter Jr. I saw TJ McConnell interview clip recently where he, basically just said, and a lot of players in his position will tell you this, that he feels like he’s made a 10 year NBA career on just fricking playing hard and going balls to the wall all the time.
Chris Fedor (36:08.301)
Right.
Jimmy Watkins (36:11.861)
And of course it helps, like honestly being in Indiana in its current iteration is really good for TJ McConnell’s back, like just control the pace. Like they have more of a spot for your traditional point guard, whereas like they have shooters they can put around him and so that he doesn’t stick out as much. like he can make the occasional, you know, three defenses don’t really respect him, but he can knock down that open shot. can get there and he can have that same sort of.
Chris Fedor (36:33.422)
Mm-hmm.
Jimmy Watkins (36:39.733)
you know, leave your fingerprint on the game when you’re running that second team. And again, just play really fricking hard. I think that’s a recipe for success. don’t like, cause I never really, if I have to project your three point shot, like, this is just like one of my draft prospect bugaboos. If you’re shooting is theoretical, I think it probably stays closer to theoretical than actualized as you get in the league. are of course success stories.
Chris Fedor (37:06.861)
Hmm.
Jimmy Watkins (37:09.547)
Chip England exists, the legendary shooting coach. He turned Kawhi Leonard from a brick lair into a king’s lair. Kawhi’s one of the greatest shooting success stories ever. I think Chip England’s an OKC now, I think. But I tend to think that average to below average three point shooters tend to stay that way. It’s a lifelong skill that needs to be honed. So if you can do other stuff.
Chris Fedor (37:25.228)
Yes he is.
Jimmy Watkins (37:39.307)
that accentuates your other talents, that would be great too.
Chris Fedor (37:43.288)
I will say that I’ve never heard the TJ McConnell comp, but people inside the Cavs organization, including one player, continue to bring up Tyus Jones as a model for Craig Porter Jr. to try and follow.
Ethan Sands (37:57.036)
I like tires.
Jimmy Watkins (37:57.143)
So the Tyus Jones model, I Tyus can really shoot it, but Tyus is like, I see that because again, Tyus is also kind of like this old school point guard, get your organ at, take care of the basketball. I mean, if that could be a superpower for you, then that’s something that coaches notice. If you can get your teammates shot attempts, especially, mean, a guy like Kenny Atkinson who will talk about the possession game until he’s blue in the face. That’s another way that.
Chris Fedor (38:01.154)
He can shoot it.
Chris Fedor (38:10.35)
Hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Jimmy Watkins (38:27.531)
that Craig Porter Jr. can get his minutes up.
Ethan Sands (38:30.926)
Yeah, maybe Trey Jones too, right? The brothers, I don’t know if Trey shoots it a little bit at worse than Tyus or not. I don’t have the numbers in front of me, but yeah, so.
Chris Fedor (38:38.336)
He definitely does. He’s a worse shooter than Pius. He’s a defensive, yeah, nuisance.
Jimmy Watkins (38:40.407)
Trey’s a defense, he’s made his name again on defense, Tyus’s offense.
Ethan Sands (38:45.228)
Right. So pick a brother. Pick a brother. But I think the, as you guys mentioned, Craig just has so much already going for him. And that’s part of the reason the Cavs drafted him or sorry, signed him as an undrafted free agent because he graduated with so much collegiate experience. He knew what his game is.
And then they have the expertise to mold him into the player that they want him to be. I think that’s exponentially important for them, especially in the future, depending on what they end up doing with this roster. But last one, and I want to get through this particularly quickly, Jaylon Tyson. And a guy that was drafted number 20 overall, came out a cow with a lot of hype because he was everything for them.
on the offensive end. But I think the biggest thing for him to improve, and I like Jaylon Tyson’s aggressiveness, he knew that he was going to have to improve on the defensive end. I think he did that in year one. I think he still needs to improve on that. There’s obviously levels to it, but his tenacity is great. I just feel like the game has to slow down for him. Everything that he does feels like it’s at 100%, and not necessarily it’s at the best. It’s not necessarily always a good thing to me moving 100 miles an hour.
I specifically remember a wide open layup that he had at the end of the season where he was going balls to the wall, grabbed the ball, and is going for the layup and just loses the ball on the way up because he’s going full speed. Sometimes you got to let the game come to you, slow it down a little bit, and know which times you go like that. And think TJ McConnell is a great example of that. Since we’re doing player comps, Caleb Martin and Josh Hart.
are two of the guys that Jaylon Tyson has been compared to that he has said that he wants to compare his game to by the end of his career. I think those are two good players to mold yourself over and mold yourself to be, especially in a team that has so many high skill guys, they need the aggressive, they need the high volume, they need, or excuse me, high motor and all those things. So I think.
Ethan Sands (41:03.256)
Jaylon Tyson has a lot of intangibles, has a great head on his shoulders to know what he needs to do to be successful. I just think he needs to slow down at times because as we know with most rookies coming into the league, sometimes they’re just moving too fast for everything else going around them.
Chris Fedor (41:22.168)
The two things that stand out to me is off ball defense is not very good. he gets caught ball watching his own ball defense. He’s tough. He’s physical. He gets into guys. He’s tenacious. He’s got an NBA sturdy body, so he can’t really get pushed around as much, but off ball, he kind of gets lost. So the focus, the attention to detail off the ball, that’s something that certainly needs to improve. And I think they got a quick in his shot. That thing’s got to get faster.
because look, this is the NBA and contests happen quickly and what seems like an open shot, if you hesitate a little bit or if you don’t have the fastest release suddenly, it’s a contested jumper instead. So I think the Cavs understand that. You’ve seen Jaylon kind of work on that behind the scenes as well, but he needs to quicken his jump shot. It’s still a little bit too slow for NBA standards.
Jimmy Watkins (42:22.679)
I like Josh Hart as an aspirational comparison for him. Cause it’s kind of like the mix of the two things, like what Jaylon Tyson was. Jaylon Tyson was dribbling the ball quite a bit in college and Josh Hart does it like, know, Josh Hart grab a rebound and push. Hart can, he doesn’t do it very often because Jaylon Brunson dominates the Knicks offense and Mikhail Bridges is there now.
Chris Fedor (42:46.936)
Okay.
Jimmy Watkins (42:50.335)
know, Kat needs his touches. Josh Hart can run a pick and roll functionally. So I like that as like a hybrid, like he can use some of his skills, but the essence of Josh Hart is go get rebounds and guard guys bigger than you. Guard up, if you can guard up positions. Jaylon Tyson listed at 6′6″, 215. Like that’s interesting to me.
Chris Fedor (43:05.992)
Mm.
Jimmy Watkins (43:18.207)
as a guy who can maybe guard up a slot or two. it’s, yeah, that draft pick has been fascinating to me since day one because of the reason that he got drafted is just not what he is going to be in the NBA. And obviously at his other stops that weren’t Cal, like he was closer to that kind of player that the Cavs want him to be. But again, that’s not what got him drafted. So it’s...
It’s obviously three point shot goes for anyone, but I think for Jaylon Tyson, it’s the hustle plays and attentiveness. let’s, mean, yes, quicken the shot, but shot go in, shot go in first. Then we can quicken it.
Ethan Sands (44:05.102)
I think we covered a lot on today’s episode when it comes to the end of bench guys and also how the Cavs have continuously got called out this summer for multiple different things. And this time I think the Cavs know what they’re doing with the Monty Bates and they’ll figure that out. And obviously, Jimmy referenced the basketball reference page of 6′10″, 170. ESPN has him at 6′8″.
202. So depending on where you look, you might get a different, you might get a different representation of what you’re looking at and what you’re looking for.
Jimmy Watkins (44:39.369)
Somebody’s lying. Somebody’s lying.
Chris Fedor (44:45.816)
There are things to criticize the Cavs about. There are. They don’t do everything right. And a lot of the things that people have said about them throughout the course of the early portion of this offseason have been on point. But to pick this of all things, guy number 17 on the roster needing more playing time.
on a team that’s competing for a championship that just lost in the Eastern Conference semi-finals to Indiana, a series in which Ty Jerome, Ty Jerome, who finished third and sixth man of the year looked like a traffic cone and at times unplayable. Like really? That’s what we’re doing? We’re talking about guy 17 on the roster getting playing time for that team in that series against that opponent, the fastest opponent in the NBA. Come on.
Come on now, we gotta be better than that.
Ethan Sands (45:42.622)
Ooh, let’s stir up, let’s stir up some beef, some debates. Come on now, I love it because you know what drives our content, Shaq versus Chris Vidor. Let’s do it.
Chris Fedor (45:56.052)
yeah, right. Right, that’s what it is. It seems to be Chris Fidor versus a fan base at this point in time, so.
Ethan Sands (46:00.174)
Let’s do it, let’s do it. All right, well.
Ethan Sands (46:07.498)
I’m not touching that with a 10 foot pole. With all that being said, that’ll wrap up today’s episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. We out
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