CLEVELAND, Ohio — The Pacers needed a spark, and Bennedict Mathurin delivered with a statement performance in Game 3 of the NBA Finals.
On this episode of the Wine and Gold Talk Podcast, Ethan Sands and Jimmy Watkins break down how the third-year guard powered Indiana to a 2-1 series lead and what his emergence says about the value of playoff depth — and having a coach who’s not afraid to use it.
Takeaways:
The Pacers’ lead in the NBA Finals showcases their depth.
Tyrese Halliburton’s performance solidifies his status as a star.
Bennedict Mathurin’s growth is a positive sign for the Pacers.
Rick Carlisle’s coaching strategy emphasizes depth and energy.
The Cavs need to learn from the Pacers’ resilience.
Playoff depth is becoming increasingly important in the NBA.
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Ethan Sands
What up, Cavs Nation? I’m your host, Ethan Sands, and I’m back with another episode of the Wine and Gold Talk Podcast. And today it is just me and Jimmy Watkins on today’s podcast as we delve into game three of the NBA Finals. Jimmy, I don’t like.
Ethan Sands (00:35)
to throw stones at a glass house. But this is not what any of us had anticipated ⁓ in this series. The Indiana Pacers have a 2-1 series lead over the Oklahoma City Thunder. They’re two wins away from an NBA championship. Jimmy, I think we got to start here. What is your initial reaction to the game put on?
Ethan Sands (01:05)
the showcase displayed by the Pacers on their home turf and what it means to have an advantage in going into game four, still being on their home court.
Jimmy Watkins (01:19)
I mean, first and foremost, I’m thrilled. always want more basketball. ⁓ The more the Pacers win, the longer this series can go because I still favor OKC in it overall. Just blown away. You want to talk about playoff depth? Blown away by the Pacers bench. ⁓ TJ McConnell comes in, completely changes the tenor of that game. Benedict Mathurin, ⁓ 22 years old, ⁓ missed last year’s playoff run.
Jimmy Watkins (01:51)
He’s kind of, look, he’s real six man-ish and that he’s hit or miss, but my God, my God, some of the stuff he was doing tonight, ⁓ the ⁓ left-handed finish at the rim, ⁓ he’s just hitting these jumps. This guy doesn’t look like he even knows he’s on the final stage, He is, ⁓ it’s like, on one hand, I’m wondering, like, do I need to reconsider?
Jimmy Watkins (02:18)
my evaluation of Benedict Mather in ceiling because these are abnormal signs for a young player. it was, he was always ⁓ tabs. The guy was a ton of scoring potential. ⁓ I S I still think, I still think that the IQ needs to meet the, meet the talent. The, the reading of the game needs to meet talent for, for me to get all the way there to like start talking like, is Benedict Mather in a future all-star kind of player, but like,
Jimmy Watkins (02:47)
These are the thoughts that are dancing through my head watching this guy cook in this game. And Obie Toppin, Obie Toppin, who the Knicks kind of just decided like, we don’t think you’re a part of a team that like you’re an expendable piece of our team. You’re a nice piece, but you’re an expendable piece. Obie Toppin was a two way, two way stud, always known for his, for his athleticism, his, pressure he can put on the rim.
Jimmy Watkins (03:17)
and his ability to stretch the floor, his mobility as a big guy. guy was protecting the room tonight. ⁓ There’s still moments where he looks like a traffic cone on defense. He doesn’t move laterally very well, but ⁓ so impressive. So impressed with that team. ⁓ We’re two wins away from ⁓ putting Rick Carlisle in some all-time coaching conversations. ⁓
Jimmy Watkins (03:45)
When Tyrese Halliburton is on, few players more fun to watch. ⁓ The way he gets teammates involved, the kind of shots he can make, the ⁓ emotion with which he plays. And then guess the flip side of this is like, man, this is like the first, this is the first time that the Thunder ⁓ I’ve been worried about, I guess a little bit in the Denver series too, but like.
Jimmy Watkins (04:12)
The Thunder ⁓ have shrunk a little bit in some of these games. Shadow Hulgrim, two out of three stinkers. That’s not good. Actually, Jalen Williams was pretty good most of the night late in the game, free throw line. Shrinks up. Missed, I think, three really important ones down the stretch. ⁓ mean, ⁓ Shay, have to grade on a curve because he’s so great, but you know.
Jimmy Watkins (04:38)
24 on 20 shots to get a career, a playoff career highest six turnovers tonight. Like that’s not going to get it done for him that you could see there. The lack of their star depth was kind of exposed a little bit tonight. Like when she doesn’t have it, who takes you home? They don’t really have a great answer to that question. But again, that this is, it’s more about what the pace is doing. This, the thunder tonight late in that game looks like the calves did ⁓ for long stretches of that pacer series. Shea.
Jimmy Watkins (05:08)
Every freaking time out, hands on his knees, hunched over. lot of these fourth quarter possessions, he’s just a statue in the corner. The reason why they were counting on Dubb ⁓ a lot late in this game, I just don’t think Shea had a lot of energy. One of the clinching buckets, I think it was ⁓ Pascal down in the paint. Shea just half-asses and reaches on a play that like, you get to stop there, the game’s still alive. You don’t get to stop there, it’s probably over.
Jimmy Watkins (05:38)
They were gassed. mean, this is like Rick, ⁓ Rick, Kyle, Rick Carlisle’s overarching strategy of look, I know it’s the playoffs and suppose to shorten my rotation, but I’m not going to do it because we’re going to finish this game better than you. And we think we can hang around long enough. ⁓ I mean, he’s been proven right time and time and time again. And this pace was team. mean, we get ⁓ like this would be two games away, but.
Jimmy Watkins (06:08)
This would be like one of the most surprising champions this century. mean, like the 22 warriors, I think a lot of people were counting them off, but like that’s still a championship core, right? The 2019 Raptors, I think surprised some people, particularly the fact that they beat the Warriors even without, even without KD, the Warriors, like obviously Klay gets her two in that series, but the Warriors were favorites in that series, but they had Kawhi Leonard, who was an all time player when he’s held.
Jimmy Watkins (06:37)
We’re going back to like 04 Pistons over the lake. Like that’s, that’s what kind of upset we’re looking at here. And the Pacers from start to finish would be an even bigger deal than that, even though they have had the second best record in the league since January 1st behind the Thunder. This, this would be, this is the kind of championship run we don’t really see in the NBA very often. It’s like,
Jimmy Watkins (07:03)
⁓ I’m questioning, we obviously, if they pull this off, we need to reevaluate our Tyrese Halliburton conversations. We need to reevaluate the way we view some of these guys, but ⁓ this is magic right now and I am enjoying it to the highest degree.
Ethan Sands (07:20)
We talked about it before the playoffs, ⁓ before we got to the NBA playoffs, Jimmy, you and I had this kind of sit down conversation. Like what are the best storylines possible for the NBA finals? Right. And we knew coming into this series that the best matchup is the best offense against the best defense. ⁓ And it’s funny enough to say that when looking back at this contest,
Ethan Sands (07:51)
The Indiana Pacers made nine three-pointers. That’s it! Against a team in Oklahoma City that doesn’t, isn’t known for making three-point shots, right? And they still made more than them tonight. And the Pacers pulled out this win, 116 to 107. And then, as you mentioned, the Tyrese Halliburton conversation, and you and I are two of the people that...
Ethan Sands (08:19)
might get looked at a little strangely after this series because of our ⁓ jump shot take on Tyrese Halliburton. But the reality of it is, is he’s a star. He is a great offensive facilitator. He is a great meet the moment character. And there are some stats from tonight’s game that I just could not ignore. And I have to tell them to you, Jimmy. And I want to see which one surprises you the most. Obviously, we’re all watching.
Ethan Sands (08:49)
⁓ the game tonight ⁓ and ⁓ afterwards they came up with a stat that when Tyrese Halliburton this season had 20 points in tennis, the Indiana Pacers are 20 and one in all of those different contests, right? And in tonight’s game, Tyrese Halliburton had 22 points in the 11 rebounds, ⁓ not to mention he also had nine rebounds.
Ethan Sands (09:17)
Sorry, excuse me, 22 points and 11 assists and nine rebounds. So I think it’s important to note how important he has been, but then you look at these other stats where it’s like, that is ridiculous. And this one stuck out to me. Tyrese Halliburton had his ninth game in the 2025 players with at least 10 assists and two made threes.
Ethan Sands (09:47)
No other player in NBA history has done that nine or more times in a single playoff run. It’s insane how good he has been. And coming out of games one and two, we obviously knew and he even mentioned it, that he started slow in those contests and he made it a point to come out faster, to come out with more vigor, to come out more aggressive, to touch the paint, kick out.
Ethan Sands (10:17)
and create opportunities, even if he wasn’t scoring, creating opportunities for his teammates and getting them hot was crucial in this win, especially when you talk about his facilitation and we know he’s a pass first guard. And it’s interesting, we’ve had these conversations about the Cavs lately about having a true old school point guard. ⁓ Obviously it’s not old school to jump every time you pass the ball, but the fact that Tyrese Halliburton
Ethan Sands (10:45)
is a pass-first point guard, even at his size, it feels more old school than some of these guys that are coming down and know how to get to their spots and are attacking and all these different things, getting to the mid-range as ⁓ Shay Gildes Alexander does. It’s more fluid. It’s more reactive. It’s more getting to where you can and figuring out how you can exploit what the defense is giving you. And I like that in Tyrese Halliburton’s game. And you mentioned it. Benedict Matherin
Ethan Sands (11:14)
TJ McConnell, there was a play where TJ McConnell didn’t make a shot, ended up getting ⁓ an offensive rebound ⁓ out to ⁓ Andrew Nemhard. He makes a mid-range shot and TJ McConnell was there ⁓ on the defensive end in the backcourt and ends up stealing the ball on the inbound path for an open layup. That ⁓ one, ⁓ you cannot do if you’re the Oklahoma City Thunder. Two, ⁓ it’s incredible.
Ethan Sands (11:41)
effort and we talked about this when it comes to tj mcconnell on a recent podcast just how he has made a career out of ⁓ Working hard jalen tyson is the guy that you reference and I really liked that comparison obviously We also mentioned josh hart craig porter jr. I apologize craig porter jr. ⁓ And ⁓ I just think it’s interesting to think how The calves could look at these different things and obviously we’ve talked about
Jimmy Watkins (11:58)
Craig Porter Jr. It was at Craig Porter Jr.
Ethan Sands (12:11)
the player development of the end of bench guys that need to get to this next level. I don’t know if there’s the same level of an excuse as, ⁓ we’re a championship contender. We need to have, ⁓ we can’t use these guys at the end of the bench because there are guys like Benedict Maffiner and there are guys like TJ McConnell on shore. They’ve worked their way to get here. Benedict Maffiner less than TJ McConnell. But it’s an interesting concept.
Ethan Sands (12:39)
that Rick Carlisle has implemented. ⁓ And this goes to the larger point of view of the over NBA. It’s like, so Rick Carlisle might be one of the few coaches in the NBA to not minimize, not decrease his bench rotation when it comes to the NBA finals, the playoffs in general. Why aren’t other coaches doing that? And is that something that we could see change as we know this is a copycat lead?
Jimmy Watkins (13:09)
Well, I do think playoff depth as we enter the new world of the CBA where it’s like.
Jimmy Watkins (13:19)
depth is more of a scarcity given like if you want to retain your best players, retaining your players gets expensive very quickly. So if you can find wins on the margins with your seventh, eighth, ninth guys, I think that can matter a little bit more. I mean, playoff depth has always mattered. It was just a different way to frame the conversation. It’s not necessarily how deep you go. It’s how deep you can go. Like it’s not about the possibilities, it’s about what these guys take off the table. We talked about this before.
Jimmy Watkins (13:50)
⁓ and Rick Carlisle, this is, you know, strategy specific. The Pacers ⁓ need to play more guys because they play so freaking fast and they play so freaking hard. Like it’s just not fair or potentially even physically possible to ask. ⁓ Let’s see. Andrew Nemhard played 33 minutes tonight, ⁓ but that’s 33 minutes of hounding ⁓ the opposing team’s best player.
Jimmy Watkins (14:19)
for 90 feet and every time you get a rebound or an outlet pass, are zooming up the court and playing or if you’re not, you’re filling a lane as fast as you can ⁓ over and over and over again. That’s why this works is because it’s relentless. They never take a play off. ⁓ One of the plays where I think Tyrese gets an awkward three in the corner, contests him. Shay stops because again, he’s tired and he’s not used to.
Jimmy Watkins (14:49)
The guys who always move. Tyrese immediately knows the shots off, follows the shot, ends up grabbing the shot, running to a teammate, kicking it out. Like it’s that kind of energy is required for this Pacers team to maximize its potential. that’s Rick is applying the strategy with a very specific, ⁓ a specific style of play in mind. And again, the Pacers are doing this in part because I mean like
Jimmy Watkins (15:18)
Guys, there are certain guys ⁓ that are out there just taking up space sometimes. Like we’ve talked about like the most memorable thing about Ben Shepard this playoff run might be his mustache. He actually had a pretty good game tonight. ⁓ Had pretty good moments, I should say. ⁓ Did a decent job on Shea. Like that’s eating innings. ⁓ If you could just make Shea work for the however many possessions you spend on him, that’s a win for Ben Shepard.
Jimmy Watkins (15:46)
Had a crazy finish at the rim over Isaiah Ardestein, hit a pull-up jumper early in the game. Might’ve had a three as well. Like that’s a massive win for Ben Shepard minutes. Thomas Bryant, like when Thomas Bryant’s in the game, he’s just eating innings until Miles Turner can come back in or ⁓ Pascal can fill that five spot. ⁓ They’ve tried OB at the fight. It’s not quite as effective, but still like Thomas Bryant.
Jimmy Watkins (16:16)
Thomas Bryant is going to offer you some spacing. He’s going to knock. You have to at least respect him as a shooter. ⁓ Ben Shepard can make an open shot like that. have to like, ⁓ we can’t compare a guy like Ben Shepard necessarily to a guy like Asuka Kuro because Asuka Kuro has proven you time and time again. He’s not going to shoot the shots. He’s not going to make the shots. He hinders your offense to a degree that outweighs the benefit of having him as a
Jimmy Watkins (16:46)
as a defensive stopper, right? ⁓ So it’s a specific thing. ⁓ I know there’s always, and again, it’s only 2-1, I still think the Thunder are going to win this series. And the Thunder ⁓ also, by the way, are ⁓ using playoff depth at their disposal for similar reasons, because they play such an aggressive style of defense, because they like to run ⁓ when they get the chance. But I just think that...
Jimmy Watkins (17:13)
Not every championship lesson is applicable to every team. ⁓ while what both of these teams have done with Playoff Depth is very impressive. ⁓ One, not like, I think every team aspires to have as many playable playoff guys as they possibly can. ⁓ what the lesson is from one playoff runner, even one playoff series, doesn’t necessarily transfer ⁓ to a year over year conversation.
Ethan Sands (17:39)
And we talked a little bit about being reactive, right? And obviously we’ve witnessed it ⁓ firsthand with Rick Carlisle’s ability to adjust on the fly and literally having videos and clips and all these highlights of ATOs where opposing coaches think they have the upper hand and then the Pacers blow the play up ⁓ and the bench points to Rick Carlisle like you knew all along, you had an idea. And I feel like
Ethan Sands (18:09)
You just look at, ⁓ I think game three of the NBA finals, a great indication of that. Sure, there are different things that go on, but the Pacers scored 24 points, led up 32 points in the first quarter. Then they scored 40 points in the second quarter, allowing just 28 points. Then in the third quarter, they allowed 20 points, allowed, or they scored 20 points, allowed just 29 points. And then they scored.
Ethan Sands (18:37)
32 points in the final period and allowed just 18. Again, this goes hand in hand with what Jimmy was talking about with how fast they run and just burning teams out, but also how their coach is able to adjust on the fly to what is going on. the OKC Thunder coach isn’t no slouch either, right? So being able to go through a pillar of coaches, Kenny Atkinson isn’t a slouch either.
Ethan Sands (19:05)
Right? Obviously he has less playoff experience than Rick Carlisle. He got through Eric Spoelstra, but there’s still level sets. Rick Carlisle, as we talked about, and as we wrote about for when we were talking about the Cavs series, that was probably the one area where we felt that the Cavs didn’t have the upper hand. That’s probably in this series where you felt like the OKC Thunder didn’t have the upper hand other than the star player, right? The MVP.
Ethan Sands (19:33)
being on the OKC Thunder team. But the fact of the matter is, if you have guys that are willing to run through a wall for a coach, willing to do everything ass, even though it might not be pretty, it might not be fun, it might not be ideal to their game plan, that’s how you win games in the NBA playoffs, right? It’s gritty, it’s determination. It’s ⁓ sacrificing among all else for the greater good of a win. ⁓ And it feels like...
Ethan Sands (20:03)
There is no team other than obviously OKC that understands that better than the Pacers. And I’m with you, Jimmy. ⁓ I think this game goes seven. OKC pulls it out somehow some way, changing my prediction from earlier.
Jimmy Watkins (20:21)
By the way, I still think it can go six. I’m not, ⁓ I think that I’ve been impressed by the Pacers. think that they played ⁓ so freaking well tonight. ⁓ the Thunder ⁓ coming into this game, you can’t discount the Pacers miraculous game one comeback, but the Thunder were absolutely dominating the series entering ⁓ game three. And if they...
Jimmy Watkins (20:50)
The question to me going forward is, ⁓ again, ⁓ as we often talk about playoff basketball. It’s not a basketball conversation. It’s a people conversation. How are going to eat this punch? Do you have the mental fortitude to swing it back the other way? ⁓ And ⁓ this is a young team. Young team who’s on the final stage for the first time. ⁓ this is where we find, we don’t have.
Jimmy Watkins (21:20)
a data set to check for that stuff. know, ⁓ Chad Holmgren first time here, Shayla Williams first time here, even Shay first time here. So I don’t know how that’s going to go, but I still feel like the Thunder are ⁓ the better team by ⁓ a decided ⁓ margin. ⁓
Ethan Sands (21:41)
Yeah, I just don’t know if I, based on what I’ve seen, what I’ve heard about Indiana and their arena and taking a game in game Bridgefield house, I think it would be difficult for OKC to take game six. And it came down to that if it’s a ⁓ series and all kind of environment, because you know, they’re going to give everything they got. I think the best option for the best opportunity would be in game seven.
Ethan Sands (22:11)
for OKC, so obviously we’re both adjusting our predictions from what we.
Jimmy Watkins (22:16)
I want 8 games if we can get it, trust me. ⁓ yeah, we’ll see.
Ethan Sands (22:22)
Yeah, and again, I just want to reiterate how great Tyrese Halliburton has been as I continue to come across these stats that just make it seem and put him into company that is insane. Tonight, Tyrese Halliburton became the fourth player in NBA history to tally 20 or more points, 10 or more assists, and 8 or more rebounds in a Finals game before turning 26.
Ethan Sands (22:50)
Magic Johnson did it twice, Russon Westbrook and Luca Donjic have all done it. That’s really good company even though two of those have not ⁓ won an NBA championship. Interesting.
Jimmy Watkins (23:05)
Okay, sorry. Can we say that again? Say those names again?
Ethan Sands (23:09)
Yep, so we got Magic Johnson, Russell Westbrook, and Luca Doncic ahead of Tyrese Halliburton.
Jimmy Watkins (23:16)
Yeah, I mean, Luke has been to the finals. ⁓ Russ has been to the finals.
Jimmy Watkins (23:24)
I don’t know. It’s pretty good company. ⁓ It’s pretty good company. And by the way, not to belabor the point, but this is Tyrese Halliburton’s second playoff run ever. Benedict Mathern is 22 years old. He missed last year’s playoff run. Like as much as we can talk about the Pacers’ institutional knowledge, the Pascal Siakams, Miles Turner’s ⁓ bevy of first round playoff experience previous to this year.
Jimmy Watkins (23:51)
Sometimes you either got it or you don’t. The pacer’s clearly got it.
Ethan Sands (23:58)
Alright Jimmy, last question before we get out of here. I know this is a Cavs-centric podcast. So, what do you think the Cavs, out of the first three games, can learn the most and try and take with them, especially when we talk about the Eastern Conference, especially when we talk about winning in the playoffs, and what is most important to their success knowing their roster currently?
Jimmy Watkins (24:29)
same lesson. mean, the Pacers are teaching us the same lesson ⁓ over and over and over and over again. One of the biggest advantages that you can have in high leverage playoff games ⁓ is. Unflappability. The Pacers keep coming at you regardless, like the even tonight, like ⁓ the Pacers had ⁓ the seesaw never flipped too far either way. Tonight was a great basketball game.
Jimmy Watkins (24:59)
Incredible swatch from start to finish, but coming out of half, the Thunder squared six straight points. ⁓ And ⁓ got it. They got a quick timeout from, from Rick Carlisle, right? ⁓ And. Okay. Fine. Keep playing. ⁓ The calves just, there’s no, I don’t, there’s not too many different ways to say this. The calves ⁓ need to ⁓ do literal soul searching.
Jimmy Watkins (25:28)
And decide whether the fourth playoff run for Darius Garland will look different. And by the way, that can be more than an injury conversation. this year, like I’ve said in the past, I’m willing to write, like give him a total pass for the Pacers series. Cause he’s, he was clearly limited watching it. was obvious now with the benefit of hindsight, he’s having ⁓ a significant surgery on the toe.
Jimmy Watkins (25:58)
willing to do that. But like, even when he was recovering from ⁓ recovering from the fallout, I guess of the broken jaw in the playoffs last year, like in the Orlando Magic Series, Darius Garland did not handle emotional swings well. The Cavs little did not handle emotional swings well. Evan Mobley, we don’t need you to roar after you make every basket, but we need you to be ⁓ consistently assertive.
Jimmy Watkins (26:28)
Cav need Evan Mobley to be consistently assertive. Jared Allen. Is the fourth Jared Allen playoff run going to be different?
Jimmy Watkins (26:40)
Because the first one, we don’t want to talk about it, right? ⁓ No one wants to talk about it. Last year, I mean, ⁓ I’m team Jared Allenhead, cracked ribs, give him a pass, but that’s not how everyone feels. And then this year you’re floating through important games again. Is the fourth time going to be different? Or okay, whatever, the third time, give him a pass, the third time going to be different?
Jimmy Watkins (27:08)
I don’t know, I don’t need, by the way, I don’t need to check in for a fourth time on, you know, is Dean Wade going to be a 25, 30 minute, a game playoff contributor? Pretty sure I have my answer on that one. As a choreo, going to be a 25, 30 minute playoff contributor? Pretty sure I have my answer on that
Jimmy Watkins (27:32)
The core, the top, the top part of the top heavy roster needs to do some soul searching ⁓ and then you need to fill in around them. I’m open to the, like Deandre Hunter didn’t see enough. I’ll see more. Jerome, the early returns were not good, but I’ll see more. ⁓ Evan Mobley took strides forward. I need to see more and we need to see more ⁓ obviously skill development, but it’s more between the ears.
Jimmy Watkins (28:02)
It’s what Max Drew said, they need to get tougher. They need to handle the pendulum swings better. I’ve never seen a team handle it better than the Indiana Pagers. That’s the lesson.
Jimmy Watkins (28:37)
Yes.
Ethan Sands (29:03)
Okay, great. Okay.
Ethan Sands (29:06)
Last thing.
Ethan Sands (29:20)
⁓ Yeah, Jimmy, I agree with you. I think it’s definitely difficult to ⁓ look at this Pacers run and say that the cows couldn’t have done it with... They couldn’t have done it with the talent that they have on the roster. It feels hard for me to say that they couldn’t have, right? It’s not a talent issue.
Jimmy Watkins (29:44)
It’s not a talent issue. You’re right about that.
Ethan Sands (29:47)
but it’s a mental toughness issue. And we’ve continued to have this conversation, right? We continue to have this discussion about ⁓ whether or not they’re in between the ears, right? And we talked about how important the brain is, the mental toughness, the mental fortitude is, and what the Indiana Pacers have just shown, ⁓ and whether you want to point to the clutch performances, whether you want to point to just overall thought process, like,
Ethan Sands (30:17)
Shea Gilder’s Alexander is called a free throw merchant. A free throw merchant, right? ⁓ And you would think that maybe Tyrese Halliburton would be like, hey, I should go get more calls. I should get my team in a better position or a better ⁓ advantageous position because this is what ⁓ the opposition is doing. Nope, Tyrese Halliburton has not attempted a single free throw throughout this entire series.
Ethan Sands (30:46)
Ridiculous. Ridiculous. And that’s ⁓ what the Cavs need, right? Not necessarily not taking free throws, not necessarily like trying to match opponents. ⁓ It’s the mindset that you don’t need to do anything but be yourself in the moment. You don’t need to change who you are. You don’t need to change what got you there. And that’s part of what we talked about at the end of the season, right?
Ethan Sands (31:16)
Kenny Atkinson consistently was like, hey, yeah, ⁓ at one point in the season, ⁓ I overdid it when preparing for a game. We all know that to be the Boston Celtics game very early into the season because that’s the team that knocked them out, right? But that transferred over into, hey, we might have a version of regular season Kenny and playoff Kenny. You can’t do that.
Ethan Sands (31:44)
Right? You have to be the same person throughout. You have to be the same team throughout. Especially if you win 64 games in a season. Especially if you have a core that you believe in. Especially if you have a team, a strategy, a coach. All of these things that you believe in, you don’t have to necessarily change that ⁓ just because of the scenario that you’re put in. Right? And that’s what Rick Carlisle has shown us the most.
Ethan Sands (32:13)
Going back to what we talked about about the rotations, right? He hasn’t shrunk them in part because of the personnel that he had. Well, Kenny, sorry to tell you this, Jamie Biggerstaff would have killed to have had the personnel ⁓ and the level of ⁓ just contribution from the bench that you had. So you can’t look to the bench and say they’re not there. They might not have been there to the caliber of the Indiana Pacers or the Oklahoma City Thunder. Well,
Ethan Sands (32:42)
⁓ Again, Benedict Matherin outscored the entire Oklahoma City bench by himself tonight. Sometimes you just need one guy. Sometimes you need multiple guys. But that doesn’t mean you take away everybody’s minutes just because one person is working. Just because one person is cooking, right? It’s the depth and the rotations that you have built up throughout the season. All of the things and all of the things. And I love going back to this, ⁓ and I love giving you your praises.
Ethan Sands (33:11)
because you were right, the Kumbaya Kenny at the beginning of the season, it worked for 82 games, and then you get to the playoffs and he tried to change who he was, and that can’t happen of this caliber of team. It can’t happen if that is who you are portraying to be. So we’re talking about all these changes, all of these adjustments that Kenny Atkinson needs to make, and obviously there are things that the team itself ⁓ needs to look at and needs to improve on.
Ethan Sands (33:42)
But to me, the overarching thing is you can’t change, you can’t be someone different when the lights get bright. Going back to the Jared Allen quote, going back to when we talked about how we did not, nobody wants to talk about that series from Jared Allen, right? Well, nobody really wants to talk about this series when it comes to Kenny Atkinson either against the Indiana Pacers, because that was not his finest hour.
Jimmy Watkins (34:10)
It’s an interesting conversation going forward ⁓ for Kenny because. ⁓ If the, assuming the calves don’t make major moves. ⁓ And as we said earlier this week, I think the Darius in surgery makes it more complicated for them to make major moves because we’ve kind of established on the pod that if they’re going to make major changes to the roster, probably centers, ⁓ centers on a Darius trade.
Jimmy Watkins (34:41)
then you have to change from within. How do you do that? Of course that’s on everyone individually, but I think ⁓ a lot of people would tell you that a coach has to invoke that change in some regard. So we have these weird two opposite ends where what made you want a historically great regular season team and earned you home corner advantage throughout the playoffs ⁓ is ⁓ a very
Jimmy Watkins (35:10)
lacks approach of a very Kenny, even the offense is not, it’s not, it’s unstructured. It’s read and react and flow. And it’s a, you know, player led locker room and it’s a delegation to the assistants. Well, now, first of all, now you’re losing assistance left and right. And we have Damari Carroll joining Jordan Ostaff and Phoenix that was.
Jimmy Watkins (35:38)
That was something that Chris was talking that Chris reported earlier tonight. ⁓ And ⁓ that it’s more responsibility on Kenny’s shoulders to institute a change ⁓ that requires an edge. ⁓ And ⁓ we know Kenny has that, but we also know that what just worked was, that’s not to say Kenny was never yelling and Kenny was never, ⁓ never confronted anybody.
Jimmy Watkins (36:08)
Like that’s part of the Cavs healthy culture was Kenny felt like he could talk to anybody on the team any sort of way, but ⁓ something needs to change ⁓ within the DNA of this team. ⁓ And ⁓ it kind of, and that change kind of runs, ⁓ antithetical to the philosophy that Kenny has been preaching this far. I think that’s a fascinating thing to go forward. So then we’ll talk a ton about.
Jimmy Watkins (36:36)
as we go through the off season and into next year.
Ethan Sands (36:39)
And just for those who didn’t get this on our subtext platform, I texted after the Darius Garland ⁓ surgery announcement that I, again, as Jimmy said, I don’t believe that the calves would ⁓ actively trade Darius Garland in this situation, obviously because his trade value is a little bit lower. But I also think that it opens the door for the calves to run it back entirely ⁓ and
Ethan Sands (37:09)
If the team stalls again in the postseason as it has in the last three years, I think it’s time, it would be time for a move that involves a bigger fish, which would mean Donovan Mitchell. And it would mean that the Cavs make this move ahead of his player option. The Cavs would make this move ahead of his 10th year of accrued service. And the Cavs will make this move with ⁓ their
Ethan Sands (37:37)
power in their hands rather than Donovan Mitchell being able to decline the offer of the player option and go on his way without them getting anything in return. No, this isn’t me saying that this is going to be a rebuild. This is me saying that draft capital and getting a player that is important to elevate the team. And in this case, it would also be 25, 26 year old Evan Mobley, 27, 28 year old 26, 27 year old Darius Garland, right?
Ethan Sands (38:07)
So you would hope at this point, as they get into their prime years, that they’ll be ready and mentally mature enough to take the next step. As Donovan Mitchell will obviously, if the Cavs do not get further than the Eastern Conference semi-finals next year, being looking for extra or other options to pursue an NBA championship, because that would prove four years in a row that this was not the best place for him to win a championship, even if the players around him.
Ethan Sands (38:37)
might have been the most talented. It’s an interesting conversation that’ll have to happen after next season, but it’s a thought that I had after the Darius Garland surgery, the Darius Garland report that makes it even more telling that as we enter the 25-26 season, it’s championship or bust, maybe, ⁓ and Eastern Conference Finals or bust, ⁓ absolutely. But with all that being said, that’ll wrap up today’s episode.
Ethan Sands (39:06)
of the Wine and Gold Talk Podcast. But remember to become a Cavs Insider and interact with Chris, me and Jimmy by subscribing to Subtext. We out.
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