CLEVELAND, Ohio — Welcome to this week’s Terry’s Talkin’ podcast, with cleveland.com columnist Terry Pluto and host David Campbell. This week, we get into the .500 Guardians and discuss why it’s too early for fans to throw in the towel on the 2025 season.
We also look at the NBA’s big trade over the weekend, and why it means it might be a quiet summer for the Cavs when it comes to making a big deal.
Also, Terry has some thoughts on Browns QB starters since 1999, and where Deshaun Watson ranks on the list for games played since the franchise returned that season.
Highlights:
The Guardians are currently at a pivotal point in their season, sitting at .500.
Trade discussions are heating up, with players like Carlos Santana and Emmanuel Clase being considered.
Terry Pluto suggests the Guardians should stay the course for now and not rush into trades.
The Tigers’ turnaround last season serves as a potential model for the Guardians.
The Guardians lack a clear identity this season, struggling in both pitching and hitting.
Player performance in the minors does not always translate to success in the majors.
Listener email asks about the Guardians’ logjam at the designated hitter position with David Fry, Carlos Santana and Kyle Manzardo.
A listener asks: Why can’t the Guardians develop hitting stars as well as pitching stars?
Darius Garland’s injury complicates his trade value and future with the Cavs.
The Cavs may not make significant moves this offseason due to Garland’s situation.
Should the Cavs consider bringing Jarrett Allen off the bench?
A listener asks: How about shortening NBA games to 40 minutes?
The Cleveland Browns have had 40 quarterbacks since 1999. Here’s who’s tied Deshaun Watson with 19 games played.
Nick Chubb has a classy departure to Houston.
The first of many listener emails about Tom Hamilton, as his Hall of Fame Weekend in Cooperstown approaches next month.
Here’s the podcast for this week:
If you have a question or a topic you’d like to see included on the podcast, email it to sports@cleveland.com, and put “Terry’s Talkin’” in the subject line.
You can find previous podcasts below, as well as a transcript.
As the transcript is computer-generated, it will contain many spelling and grammatical errors.
David Campbell (00:01)
Hey, Terry Pluto is here. I’m your host David Campbell and we are back after a week off for a new edition of the Terry’s Talking podcast. What’s happening Terry? It’s been a couple weeks.
Terry Pluto (00:10)
Well, you should be all rested and ready to go, so I’m going to just defer to you. Where do you want to start?
David Campbell (00:13)
I am all rested.
Well, I think we should start with the Guardians. ⁓ And there’s a lot going on there. then, yeah, we’ve got some interesting Cav stuff to talk about too. But the Guardians are kind of at a key point of the season here, Terry. So they enter tonight’s game 35 and 35 as they continue their West Coast swing. They are now, I think we were talking about this a few weeks ago, that if they had a bad spell, they couldn’t see this number balloon. But they’re nine and a half games out of first place.
Terry Pluto (00:19)
Okay.
Mm-hmm.
huh.
Mm-hmm.
David Campbell (00:42)
and
third place behind the twins. I was very interested because if you listen to a lot of the sports talk in Cleveland, I know some of our listeners live out of the area and some live in the area, but a lot of the sports talk in town has been about trades that the Guardians can make. But I know you wrote a column today on Tuesday and we’re taping this late Tuesday afternoon. You can see this, you’ve seen this thing turn around quickly with other teams and especially with the Guardians in previous years. You’re kind of in, it seems like.
Terry Pluto (00:56)
Mm-hmm.
David Campbell (01:10)
they should stay the course for another month or so and see how things are, right? Did I summarize that in a good way? Talk about that for a minute.
Terry Pluto (01:14)
Yeah, sure. I don’t see big. I
don’t see a big rush. mean, first of all, I’ll ask you David Campbell. All right. Who would be candidates to trade?
David Campbell (01:23)
So the names I’m hearing are Carlos Santana and Emmanuel Classe as two potential people, right? Are you hearing those two and any others?
Terry Pluto (01:27)
Mm-hmm.
I’ve not heard that much about Klaus A, I think it’s absolutely foolish. His contract is so team friendly that even frankly, it’s team friendly if he wasn’t even a closer. It would be really ridiculous. And I know he had a rough start early and he blew the game the other night, but he was thrown much better. And yeah, so let’s get real. ⁓ Maybe they think they can get more for him.
David Campbell (01:53)
He has been thrown much better of late.
Terry Pluto (02:00)
But I just don’t see that as being why. If he’s young, there’s like no reason to get him out of here because he’s going to be 40 years old like Carlos and also that he’s going to be a free agent. I mean, that’s all the reasons to trade Carlos. And they do have, as we were going to chat about, a lot of jam on first base and that. How old, by the way, is Emmanuel Jose?
What do think David?
David Campbell (02:31)
28? Am I right? Okay.
Terry Pluto (02:34)
Good, 27, good guess.
Yeah, so that’s the point right there. And it would be, we could look up his contract as we’re going along, but it would be absolutely dumb to move him unless it’s part of some huge deal that brings a lot back. But in general, when you trade a relief picture, you don’t get that much back in return. Maybe that should change, so that, yeah, good.
David Campbell (02:59)
So I have the contract right here, Terry, if you want to run through real quick. So he’s making 4.9
this year, 6.4 next season. And then there’s a club option for 10 million in 2027 and 10 million in 2028 when he is, would be 30. So they have, the guardians love team control and they have him under team control for three more seasons after this one, if they want it.
Terry Pluto (03:04)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. ⁓
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm
Right, I think the
average salary in baseball now something like eight or nine million. So when you look at that, you’ve got him under team control. He’s young. As far as we know, he has not had any big physical problems. And I just, I like him. I don’t, I don’t see that. You know, you want to trade Carlos Santana tomorrow. I mean, that’s fine. And I guess you open up the first base for Manzardo all the time and
You can DH David Frye. could maybe bring up Kafas from the miners. They’re trying to make him an outfitter. He’s mostly a first baseman. You could do things like that. But it’s not like they’ve got a bunch of these guys. guess Lane Thomas is going to be a free agent. But what do you really get from Lane Thomas?
David Campbell (04:16)
Yeah, nothing that’ll move the needle. So you’re of the opinion that if you’re the Guardians management right now, you stay the course for another month. And the trade deadline is still a ways off. It’s July 31st. we might be speaking in a different way about this team in a month. And so Terry, you wrote in your column about the Tigers last year. And I think we should talk about that for a second because a lot of Guardians fans are throwing in the towel right now. Talk about the Tigers and what they did last year.
Terry Pluto (04:24)
Sure.
Right. Six weeks.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
David Campbell (04:45)
in terms of where they were at that point of the season last year, this point in the season, and then where they finished up.
Terry Pluto (04:49)
Yeah.
And they were 34 and 36 after 70 games. So basically identical to what Cleveland is now. What’s even more surprising to me is that the All-Star break, they were 47 and 50. And what really changed, it was like August 10th is when they decided we have terrible starting pitching. So we’re not going to have starting pitches. We have Tarek Scoobel and bullpen games.
They went bullpen games the rest of the season. finished 33 and 14. They made the playoffs and they won a round and they gave Cleveland a really good series. So that’s, you know, that happens. mean, I remember back in 2013 when Terry Francona came in and they were a few games over 500 at the all star break. I think it was about five games over 500, something like that. Uh, they ended up winning the last 10 games of the regular season to make the playoffs. won 92 games that year.
So this doesn’t mean hey turn that frown upside down, but it also is to say when you have so many playoff spots you can Get in there the column I wrote this posted now is you know Can they get rid of their blah identity because right now the problem with the Guardians is they don’t do anything particularly well I mean the the of the 15 American League teams that are like 12th and ERA and 11th and runs scored and ⁓
Excuse me, 12th rather in run scored 11th in OPS. I think their ninth or something in the RA that, you know, it’s just middle of a pack or whatever defense last year, they were a top five team, maybe top two, depending on which these different things you lose. ⁓ again, eighth, ninth, middle pack of 15, ⁓ 15 teams, a couple of fans wrote me. an interesting quote, whatever happened to guards ball.
David Campbell (06:46)
Well, guards ball is hustle, taking the extra base. And to make that happen, you have to get on base, right? I mean, that’s been the problem. The genesis of offense is getting on base. And when you don’t get on base enough, you can’t steal, you can’t hit and run the things that the guardians like to do to put pressure on opposing defenses. Am I right? So it all starts with that. It all starts with that.
Terry Pluto (06:49)
Right.
And we’re
That’s correct. yeah. Yeah,
that’s that’s exactly right. And that again, you didn’t you don’t have the identity. You know, last year they won big because they had a 2.6 ERA out of bullpen, which is the best like this century or something like that. They ranked number two defensively. ⁓ They were in the middle of a pack. They were on eighth and run scored as opposed to 12th. So they were OK just in pure hitting.
And they were superb in pitching and defense, even though their starting pitching wasn’t all that great. They made up for the strong bullpen in the same way. Detroit just junk starters entirely other than scubal and just bullpended, you know, all the way right into the playoffs. Now they’re using more starters this year. Sometimes that what happens in mid season, you go, we got to just, we got to change this around. And out of that, maybe even out of desperation, comes somewhat of an identity.
David Campbell (08:01)
So that’s what I’m trying to, I’m wondering where that’s going to come from, Terry. Like, so Shane Bieber is making progress. He had a little bit of a setback. I know when he was supposed to pitch an anchor in a couple of weeks ago, ⁓ Trevor Stephens coming back from his there’s pitching help coming, like, where does that Tigers ask switch flip come from? Like, does somebody have to get called up? Do they have to change the way they’re doing things? Do they change the batting order? Like, I’m just trying to figure out where.
Terry Pluto (08:05)
Right.
Mm-hmm.
David Campbell (08:31)
that streak can come from. If it’s not pitching, I’m just having a hard time putting that together in my head.
Terry Pluto (08:38)
Well,
you need guys to come up for the miners and produce. Remember back in 2022, they just seemed like who, no matter who they called up played well. I mean, this is incredible to me. Big Christmas. had 103 at bats with Cleveland, batted 146, a couple of homers, a couple of doubles. That was at 146 at bats. He’s gone back down 25 at bats.
He’s got four doubles. He’s got two homers. He’s hitting 400. I mean, he looked like up here you could have handed him the ball said throw it up and hit it somewhere and he would have popped it up or missed it. I mean, his confidence was shot. He went down there. Will Wilson, who was sitting like 330 when they brought him up. He at 176 up here. He went back down there. He’s sitting three 10.
David Campbell (09:08)
Hahaha!
It’s funny, I was looking at some war stats, know, Winsaburva Placement the other day. Part of the Winsaburva Placement is how you compare to a player who’s a AAA or 4A player, which is like in between. So like a 4A player is like exactly what you’re talking about. Like Big Christmas is, he’s like right in between AAA and the majors right now to where you bring him up and it’s not working out, but you send him down and he’s crushing the ball. So I guess that’s what you call a 4A player, right?
Terry Pluto (09:34)
Yeah.
Yeah, but it’s hard to do that now.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, that was always, know, Jeff, I think his name was Jeff Manco that used to call him. like hit all these minor, he was like Crash Davis from the movie Bull Durham. He had a ton of homers and I mean, he could have ran for mayor of Buffalo. He played there for so long and those kinds of guys, you know, chase the water. Now, I think the water is a really viable big league prospect and, but he’s had all these injuries. He’s sitting 263.
David Campbell (10:05)
Yeah, right.
Terry Pluto (10:25)
at AAA but in June he is 13 for 36 306 he’s got a I think he’s got a home run the all right here’s one of these stats there he’s a left-hand hitter okay now that’s not he hasn’t a ton of a bats in AAA lefty hitter about once 172 against righties and 429 against lefties 9 for 29 against lefties 9 for 21 rather
So in other words, if you’re even in the front office and you’re looking at all this stuff, you’re going, geez, what do we do here? Kyle Manzardo, on May 1st, he had eight homers and he had 21 RBIs and 90 at bats. Since then, he’s kind of the played 116 times. He’s got three home runs. He’s bat like 180 or something. In essence, May 1st, that’s 116 at bats.
So it’s, do you send him out? I don’t know the answer to that. I do see with him, he hit those home runs early. And to me, what I liked about him when they tried it for him is he wasn’t a dead pole hitter. He was a guy that hit a lefty hitter, hit a lot of balls to the left center and that. And it looks to me out for a month or more, he’s been just trying to pull everything. And I’m sure the coaches see that too.
You want a little bit of hope. Nolan Jones has started to hit. ⁓ He said I think he’s hit like 320 or something like that in the month of June. will he get hot? mean, here’s how you do the thing. Nolan Jones gets hot. Finally, they’ve been talking about all the high velocity, all that, and has a second half like he had that year in Denver a couple years ago. Then you bring up the water. He starts to hit or you bring up CAFIS. He starts to hit.
Jones starts to hit now all of sudden Juan and Ramirez have some company in the lineup and maybe Juan Brito who’s playing down finally after his broken thumb. He’s playing in Goodyear. be moving him, I’m sure, to Buffalo pretty soon. They bring him up. He takes over at second base and he gets some offense going. And then you get Bieber. I know this is a lot of, I’m not saying best case scenario, but it’s certainly a bright scenario.
But I sincerely doubt that anybody right now with Detroit thought they were going anywhere, even when they were ⁓ at the 97 game market, 47 and 50 thought, well, you know what we need to do? Let’s just go to the bullpen and we’ll head straight to the playoffs. And it worked. It did work. And the interesting thing on that was there was some concern. I know would there be a big carryover to this year with their pitching staff because of
David Campbell (13:00)
Yeah. ⁓
Terry Pluto (13:11)
They worked those guys hard. They pitched a lot. But so far, it hasn’t happened.
David Campbell (13:18)
Well, there were a lot of ifs there, Terry, you’re right, but that’s what baseball is and there’s nothing, you won’t find many cooler things in sports than when a baseball team gets hot in like July or something and the whole season changes, that’s really fun. So I’m sure Guardians fans are hoping that all your ifs will come true.
Terry Pluto (13:22)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Yeah.
Well, mean, that’s what they’re looking
at as opposed to let’s just tank it and everything else.
It’s really the thing that’s difficult though is where you go back to, as you mentioned, your four a player or your triple a player or whatever it is. And I would argue too, that even some of these war stats based on their, ⁓ formulas for what constituted trip, a triple a player versus big leagues. I have a feeling they’re going to have to go back and really rework that and rate that farther down because you know, guy in two 16, the big leagues.
You could probably go down there rake 310 320. No problem. That’s what it looks like to me You know when they would send will Brennan down there He didn’t have any problems by the way, Angel Martinez was hitting like 330 when they called him up on hell was Yeah,
David Campbell (14:22)
Yeah, it’s like you always talk about Gary Waters, the former
Cleveland State basketball coach. When a guy goes from one level to another, you basically have to half his scoring average, right? It’s kind of like that. Yeah.
Terry Pluto (14:29)
Right. Yeah, it kind of like that exactly or
or, you know, pile it up. And that’s why it’s a it’s a it’s a fun thing to talk about. Basically, I’m probably just like the guardians. I’m all over the room on this. feel like the blind man or the I’m sorry, the man with the the blindfold on looking for in a dark room, the light switch, knowing somewhere it’s in there. I just don’t know where it is. And also, I doubt anyone.
Detroit probably even at this point said what we need to do is just having a tighter bullpen season But they ended up getting there now I will say this in general the guardians tend to be pretty creative and come up with with things and we’ll see
David Campbell (15:13)
How
about this Terry, a lineup of entirely of designated hitters. can get a little segue into our question here. This one is from Caleb Mackey from Columbus. Caleb’s a long time listener. says, Hey Terry and David, David Fry’s return is welcome, but I feel like it creates a bit of a log jam at the designated hitter position. At this point, I feel like Manzardo just needs major league at bats and Fry is taking some of those away. If Fry could play catcher or if Manzardo could play right field, I feel like this would be a non-issue.
Terry Pluto (15:16)
Yeah.
Yeah.
David Campbell (15:41)
However, as it stands, you have a guy in Friday that can only contribute at the DH spot and Manzardo is unable to play a position other than first base and he’s a bit of a liability at that when compared to Santana. I feel like something has to give. Do you see a solution to this dilemma? So.
Terry Pluto (15:56)
Yeah, if they struggle,
they trade Santana. That’s it.
David Campbell (15:59)
Yeah, well that
could be it. I got the numbers right here. can just run through them real quick. So Manzardo has played 40 games as the DH. Santana has played 13 and David Fry has played seven. Of course, David Fry cannot play the field because of his elbow situation. At first base.
Terry Pluto (16:02)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
By the way,
have you ever seen a team that had two Tommy John surgeries to position players in basically one year? Okay, within a 12-month period because fries granted was right after last season and Brennan’s was what, a month or two ago? But come on, I know I’m just an old befuddled guy on some of this stuff. It’s bad enough that like every pitcher now gets a Tommy John. Now the position players are getting it. What are they doing?
David Campbell (16:20)
You don’t see that very often,
Yeah.
throwing BP on the side? I don’t know. It’s a good question. Manzardo, I was going to say Manzardo’s played 21 games at first base and Carlos Santana has got 53. So just for that background. that could do it right. In three, four weeks, we’re looking at maybe a Carlos Santana move. And then there you go. And down the stretch, you’ve got the at-bats. So thanks for that question, Caleb.
Terry Pluto (16:45)
Are they swinging too hard? Go ahead. I’m sorry.
Yeah.
Sure.
Right. the
fans are just beating the whole Josh Naylor trait. Yeah, Naylor’s had a better year than Carlos Santana, but Santana’s year is fine. that’s not the problem. Carlos Santana is not the problem.
David Campbell (17:21)
Probably your third most productive offensive player, right? Yeah.
Terry Pluto (17:24)
Yeah, he is. And
okay, I think he’s got about as many home runs as Josh. Josh, I think he has about eight or 10 RBIs more. Josh’s batting average is higher. ⁓ But it’s not like you traded Neor and he’s got 15 home runs and Carlos has four. By the way, then I’ve had some people that this is an interesting stat. Well, there’s nobody protecting Jose. He’s probably getting walked all the time. ⁓ Well.
The I looked it up.
He ranks fourth in intentional walks, but it’s a distant fourth, but not Aaron Judge has got like, I think 15. Then there’s guys like Kyle Tucker and some others. So he has six. He’s been intentionally walked six times in the first two months. That’s not a lot. I don’t know why I don’t intentionally walk him more.
David Campbell (18:22)
Yeah, and many managers have regretted not doing it, I think, over the years.
Terry Pluto (18:26)
If you’re right, I don’t care Santana or if
they had Josh Naylor or whatever, I’m in the old bliss, somebody else beat me thing. I mean, I, I’m like, you and I have discussed this too, in the NBA and the playoffs, you know, how many times do you want to let Jalen Brunson or do you want to let Halliburton or whoever the other player is, uh, you know, crush you in crunch time, double team them, make them throw the ball to somebody else, make somebody else beat me. Uh, and if he does, he does. I mean, I still would feel better about it if I’m the opposing manager.
David Campbell (18:31)
Yeah.
Terry Pluto (18:55)
I walked ⁓ Jose and okay, Santana hit a home run. But the odds are Carlos is not going to do likely to hit the home run unless he has incredible stats against the current pitcher ⁓ compared to Jose.
David Campbell (19:13)
Alright, here’s one more Guardian’s email and this one comes from Dan Polster and Dan says, ⁓
Terry Pluto (19:23)
Mm-hmm.
David Campbell (19:42)
system other than Stephen Kwan. Lindor may have been the last power hitter they developed but no one more recent. You’ll probably consider me to be an alarmist when I bring up concern over Travis Bazzana’s lack of production even at AA when guys like Nick Kurtz and Jack Caglianone are already playing in the majors. However when you look at him potentially joining other injury prone draft picks such as Chase DeLotter and pitcher Daniel Espino I’m concerned that we’re not getting much for our first round picks and certainly don’t seem to have a pipeline of hitters heading toward the major league level.
I’m not even convinced that CJ Cafas will be the answer in terms of power. There are some young players who might provide some pops such as Ralphie Velasquez, but even he’s only hit batting 200 at Lake County. And I see no one who is a sure thing or even close to helping. I have to imagine the organization is aware of this, but I’m not seeing significant changes to their priorities. Do you agree this is a problem? Thanks for that, Dan.
Terry Pluto (20:21)
please.
Well, yeah, and
they’ve changed a bunch of the quote hitting group around, you know, that they talk about that the different coaches and they have done that. And it’s correct. By the way, Jose is a product of the farm system. to be, if you’re going to count one door, if you’re going to count one door, you also got to count Jose and, Quan is another. ⁓ so those are, those are the two there, but you know, you’re.
David Campbell (20:45)
Yes, it has been a while, but yes.
And Carlos Santana, guess, too, right? Even though he was
gone and came back.
Terry Pluto (20:59)
No, although
actually, you know, they traded he he was with the Dodgers originally. They traded him got him for Casey Blake a hundred years ago.
David Campbell (21:08)
He did come up through the farm system though with Cleveland. Yes.
Terry Pluto (21:09)
But he did, that’s correct. So
then if you start doing that, I guess you open it up a little more, but the real problem and he’s correct. You know, you, want to nail some of these first round picks to become stars, you know, and we’ll see if that can be the water. Now the water dropped out of the top 10 because he had a foot problem. and that was it. Cause it, in terms of how we hit the ball and wait till you see him in person. mean, he’s like,
6-2, 2-10. He just looks like a vintage right fielder. He runs pretty well. James Madison, where he played, they used him as a relief pitcher because he threw 92 miles an hour. I mean, he’s got a really good arm. And I went a couple of years ago down to Lake County and rode along thing on him. And I just, hadn’t seen a player like that with Cleveland for quite a while. So that’s, in general, his thing is correct. I Nolan Jones is one of their guys.
that they had, they traded them, they brought them back. But they just, they’ve not had the breakthrough. Now, baseball people will tell you if they had their choice, would they rather develop pitchers or hitters? David, what would they say? Absolutely. Why would they say that?
David Campbell (22:18)
Pitchers.
Because they’re a higher commodity and you can get hitters and trades for them,
Terry Pluto (22:25)
You
got it exactly right. They’re the most expensive commodity to develop. They are the also the great eraser last year. Remember middle of the pack and run scored eight out of 15 teams. They rolled to 92 wins or whatever it was they had because they had even with just so so starting pitching, but the bullpen was so great and defensively that were good. And they’re always going to be.
You know, there’s going to be a certain amount of frustration because so many of us are programmed to the guardians of the nineties and that was a steroid era. not saying the whole team was on steroids there, but just everybody was, was hitting home runs and that, well, those days are gone. And the last time I looked, the average major league hitter, I think was hitting two 42. ⁓ it’s really, it’s a different type of ball game now.
partly to the way they go to the bullpens and every time you turn around, it’s basically somebody throwing 97 miles an hour, 95 miles an hour from the fifth inning on. And so that’s why, Bizana, I don’t know what to say. I would have expected him to have done more when he had played earlier. He’s out with an oblique and we’ll see. It’ll be interesting to watch how these guys who’ve been called up, you know, how well they do, 85 % of all players.
go back to the miners at least once. And so that’s a, ⁓ that’s that’s a given too. Now I didn’t like Calguion ⁓ in the draft. thought he was sort of a big, kind of a bigger version of Nolan Jones, but I could be really wrong on that. ⁓ Yeah. Right. And he’s been struggling too. And, but not a surprise. mean, heck last year at this time, he was still in a college draft.
David Campbell (24:05)
And the Royals just brought him up last week, if I remember right. Yep.
Terry Pluto (24:17)
Nick Kurtz is one from the representation from White Forest. ⁓ I did ask a baseball person. said, why did he? Cause the stats are really because he’s had major shoulder problems. It kind of, kind of like the lottery with the foot. Some teams red flagged them. was it Oakland? think that took him real high and you know, bang, he’s in the big leagues already. This stuff’s hard. I will say it’s the MLB draft is hard and we’ll see what happens with Bazzana. ⁓
The one thing I did worry about with the Zana is he is so driven and so obsessed that ⁓ that can sometimes even work against you. Now, the guy that I liked in the draft, Charlie Condon, he was terrible last year. He got hurt. He’s just finally coming back to play now for the Rockies. Last time I went to, I think he was in a high A or something. He wasn’t doing much of anything. But really you have to look a couple of years out.
Well, I’m with him and the fact that you’d like to have seen more from their higher picks, but.
David Campbell (25:23)
It’s still early,
but it’s an interesting comparison though, Terry. You bring up Bazzana and De Lauder. Like if you watch De Lauder, like the ball jumps off his bat and it just seems like he’s standing in there with that scissor swing and he’s just swinging. Like it doesn’t seem like there’s a lot of moving parts or a lot of mechanical ⁓ just intricacies to his swing. It seems very simple. And he just seems like he rolls out of bed and hits. Whereas like Bazzana, know that, and there was a lot written about this before the guardians took him number one last year.
Terry Pluto (25:26)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. No.
David Campbell (25:52)
He is such a student of every facet of the baseball swing and the game. he seems like he’s micromanaging every part of his game. And I’m not saying that’s why he’s maybe not succeeding so far, but it’s interesting the two different approaches. I just, wonder like we’ve seen players talk about not overthinking their swings and stuff. And I just wonder if there’s a little bit of that that might need to happen with Bazana. I don’t know, but the lottery, you just watch him hit it. It looks so simple.
Terry Pluto (26:01)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah
Sure.
Well, yeah,
just don’t look at his feet because I don’t cause it looks weird. He steps, he steps back and then he steps forward. Just watch his hands and how it goes through the ball. Because I remember talking to somebody from the guardians and when they drafted them and I saw this swing and what, what is that? go, well, we said the same thing. He goes, but he just raked everywhere. He raked them. You he hit him the Cape Cod league. hit this league. and.
David Campbell (26:21)
Yeah, right, the Harold Bayne Scissor Swing.
Yeah.
Terry Pluto (26:45)
We figured we’re not going to mess with this thing until there’s a reason to the last thing you want to do is take a guy who’s got tremendous confidence and a ton of success and say, you know, you got this weird thing with the foot going backwards and all that. ⁓ Supposedly now we’ll see when he gets to the big leagues that you can with a guy who does that really hurt them with fastballs around the letters. Now that’s that’s the.
the book on it, but you know, he’s like I said, he’s in AAA now he started slow, but he’s starting to hit. And I’m not surprised because he ended up missing him. had a hernia surgery, mismosis, spring training and all this stuff. But, you know, we’ll see. mean, KFIS is kind of a, you’ll see him. He’s physically unimposing. He’s a smaller guy, but I mean, this year between,
Double A and triple A sitting 333 with eight home runs and 1000 OPS. You know he’s hit in the past and. If they want it really if they were going to bring somebody up, I would bring him up. I know it’s not particularly good in right field, but.
David Campbell (27:54)
Well, they’re going to keep playing them there and see how it goes, I guess.
Terry Pluto (27:56)
Yeah, exactly. Why not?
mean, you I’m looking up his size. He’s listed a five, 10, one 80. So it’s underwhelming and the same way that, ⁓ the Zana, when you see him, he, went to see him last year and I think he got a hit and he played okay. Second, but it wasn’t like you walk into the ballpark and say, which guy out there was the first round pick like two years ago, a couple of years ago in one LA County. Well, that guy out in right field, he looks like a player then, which was the water.
This year is like, you know, I would have passed right over him. ⁓ fact, the guy I liked, ⁓ is the guy and, ⁓ Connor and Connor and he’s a dub Ingo. Yeah. I liked it. You could just tell he was a really polished catcher and had a really nice swing and he, and he’s sitting pretty well at Akron. Can they have a catcher that could hit?
David Campbell (28:48)
Many fans will be happy about that.
Terry Pluto (28:50)
Yeah, they would.
And I know you would like they were to hit more. He’s got nine home runs. He’s giving you a little bit. The problem is, you get nothing out of right field. You get nothing out of center field. You’re not getting much ⁓ from your DH since May 1st. I’m talking about Manzardo and mama Manzardo guy. ⁓ And your desk basically relying on Quan and Carlos and Jose, you know.
Arias is really cooled off. Actually, Schneeman’s having a nice share point, some at second base. you know, that trade, I’m sure they’re thrilled they made that trade to get rid of him. And as I can’t believe he sat in 210 and it just really fell apart entirely. They’d rather, and remember this, these trades that they made when they traded Neuer, they got a slight Saccone and then they got a draft pick and then they used that money to sign.
David Campbell (29:37)
Yeah, really struggling.
Terry Pluto (29:49)
Carlos, they’re targeting starting pitching. It’s the most expensive quantity. they, I think that I think like a lot of teams, are just totally Tommy John elbow shocked. You know, they’re just, we got to pile them up. I don’t know. The Dodgers got like 14, I’m seriously 14 pitchers or something on the disabled list right now.
David Campbell (30:09)
Well, yeah, and we saw what happened last year with how much they had to lean on that bullpen way too much. I think they, we’ve talked about this, we can’t do that again. They basically said, we cannot do that again. So yes.
Terry Pluto (30:11)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm. Yeah. mean, we got to least get somebody to go five or six innings. Maybe
five. Can I hear five? Can I tell take five? know, instead of like, it’s the fourth inning and and some of those games in Seattle, the first inning, you know, there’s Gavin Williams at 31 pitches. got out great.
David Campbell (30:36)
Yep. All right, we got one more email. However, before we wrap up the Guardian segment, this is from long time listener, Neil in Jamestown, New York. He says, Hey Terry, I think that John Kenzie Noelle situation was handled badly by management. He should have been sent down two months ago. It wasn’t fair to the team, the fans, and mostly the player who by all accounts is a good guy. It’s one of the very few low points for me this year. I give Antonetti and Chernoff a pass on most things, but not this. What do you think, Terry?
Terry Pluto (31:00)
Well, let’s be honest.
Well, two months ago, my calendar says June. So that would have been April 15th or whatever it is. Yeah, that’s a bit much. May 17th, say we’re a month. Yes, absolutely. In fact, you and I talked, it was one of the moves, know, send them down and, ⁓ you know, is it a point you’re going, gee, you know, if we had Will Burnett hitting 260, a soft 265, at least it would be something. ⁓ it’s
David Campbell (31:08)
True. Yeah.
Terry Pluto (31:31)
Maybe I mean maybe the Nolan Jones thing is going to work and the reason I’m saying that this is like they kind of put Not just with the trade they put their reputation at on the line here with just playing him through the dismal start and everything else and We’ll see. I mean Nolan Jones in 2023 in 400 at bats at 20 some homers He stole 20 bases and drove in like 68 runs and hit 298
And they had drafted him high to begin with, you know, out of high school, there was their guy and they liked him. ⁓ and then they traded him for one Brito who’s my guy. And so we’ll see if, see, that’s the thing I, I Brito from what I’ve been told, what I just haven’t seen enough to have an evaluation has the type of kind of controlled swing and that, that he should be able to come up here and not just fall apart. See the problem with the.
Noel swing even a lesser extent that Jonathan Rodriguez swing and of course the ⁓ big Spongebob swing was there all big right hand hitters and they love to chase pitches about a foot outside sliders especially and so we’ll see now they want to see what Rodriguez can do they supposedly worked with this ⁓ having them kind of frankly hit less for power and just try to
just hit more for average and doubles. And they’re very happy how that was going a triple way. He’s actually got a couple of hits since he came up.
David Campbell (33:10)
Okay, again, thanks for all these great emails. All of our listeners out there, if you want to hit us with a thought comment question, you can email it to sports at cleveland.com and just put Terry’s talking in the subject line. We will try and get it on an upcoming podcast. So, all right, you ready to take a break? All right, when we return, we’ll get into the Cavaliers and I’m going to throw out my theory, Terry, that I don’t think the Cavs are going to make any big moves. And I want to hear what you think of it. So.
Terry Pluto (33:25)
Yes.
Okay.
David Campbell (33:38)
We’ll get into that and more when we return on Terry’s Talking.
Hey, we’re back on Terry’s talking. Before I forget, Terry, I did want to mention you have an appearance coming up a week from tomorrow, which is June 25th in Avon Lake. You want to talk about that for a second?
Terry Pluto (33:49)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, 630 Avon Lake Library. It’s free. ⁓ No need to register. Hopefully, there’ll be a lot of people there. I think they have a big room. I know it was out there years ago. just don’t, I just remember I had a good time. I don’t remember the facility, but I’m looking forward to it. It’s free for everybody except David Campbell. And if you go out, they charge you double.
David Campbell (34:14)
That’s right. But I’ll get a signed book out of the deal, so that’ll be worth it.
Terry Pluto (34:16)
Yep. Yeah, you get a double
free. It’s a double free for you. So.
David Campbell (34:22)
All right, well, let’s get into the Cavaliers, Terry. I feel like this has become the off season of Darius Garland where every day everybody wants to talk about Darius Garland and deals the calves can make. And if you didn’t see it Chris Fedor from our Cavs Beat had a really thorough breakdown last week of some possible deals that could happen. But I’ve come to the opinion that I don’t think it’s going to happen. And here’s why, all right. This Desmond Bain deal that happened on Father’s Day, the Grizzlies sent him to the magic.
Terry Pluto (34:29)
Yeah.
David Campbell (34:51)
for Cantavious, Caldwell, Pope, Cole, Anthony, four first-round picks and a future pick swap. And that was one of the places that we have been talking about, about that it might’ve been a good change, a good trade for the Cavs to send him down there. And, ⁓ but it’s, don’t think it’s going to happen now after that deal, they’re going to, that probably has taken that out of the mix, right?
Terry Pluto (35:01)
Mm-hmm.
Well,
I’m sure the whole world just read what I heard about the calves over the weekend that was posted online. But I think item number two was, and I got this from a top source, why do we want to send Garland to Orlando to help them? That’s absolutely what they need. And then we will be tormented by that.
David Campbell (35:25)
Yes.
And the quote I think you had in your account, they have a quote, no interest in sending them there, right? Yes.
Terry Pluto (35:38)
Yeah, you were to Orlando. Yeah,
not that there’s no interest in trading them, but to there. They also have no interest in taking a bargain basement deal because of the foot injury. This is still really vague to me. The guy has a toe injury, David, and they’re talking a four to five month recovery. Month!
David Campbell (35:44)
Yes.
Terry Pluto (36:03)
on a big toe.
David Campbell (36:05)
Well, that just shows you, mean, he must have been in bad shape and he told us that during the playoffs, but I think there were a lot of Cavs fans who were like, hey, tough it out. Like it’s the playoffs. And I think when that surgery thing and the amount of time off, a lot of Cavs fans were kind of hit by that a little bit, I think.
Terry Pluto (36:07)
Yes! Yeah!
Cause it, cause they do. I know the
hockey mentality on you is you hate to, you know, mention anybody even has an injury, but.
David Campbell (36:28)
Well,
yeah, that was my only problem with it. Like, you can only do what you can do, but you don’t need to let the other team know. That was my biggest thing with him.
Terry Pluto (36:35)
Right. But the moment you’re telling
people that he’s out with a bad toe, well, they know he’s got a bad toe. And most people in the NBA were there. ⁓ and clearly, well, I guess they thought maybe they could get by without surgery because they waited almost a month for him to have it. But there was something, you know, really off about it. I, I was trying to get more details on this and I was not getting much.
I’m like, well, what do they do to it? And I talked to a couple of friends who were podiatrists and orthopedic and said, well, what could it be for four to six months? But I’m not going to go there because that’s just ⁓ speculation. Yeah. And they said, I didn’t see the X-rays and this and that, but a couple of things they talked about were significant, David, you know, and that’s why you’ve heard something about six months and missing part of the regular season. Cause they said, when you start talking more than two to three months, they did something.
David Campbell (37:16)
speculation.
Terry Pluto (37:33)
⁓ of significance. So then if you are whatever team that’s looking at Garland, you’re going, well, you know, I’m not gonna, I’m gonna, he’s got three years and 127 million left on the contract. He’s got a toe that needs four to six months. What do I want it? What do want to give up with that? Yeah, go ahead, go.
David Campbell (37:53)
Yeah, and that’s why I was saying before the break, like, well,
I just, don’t see that deal. I don’t see a Garland deal happening now after all this stuff that’s going on. His trade value is the worst it’s going to be right now with the injury, the playoffs, the back-to-back playoff years where he’s struggled. Who knows when he’s going to be playing. They’re not going to get maximum value.
Terry Pluto (38:03)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
David Campbell (38:19)
for him at this point. And I don’t see what the advantage to the Cavaliers would be to trade him now as opposed to waiting till closer to the trade deadline when he’s still got, he’ll have less time left on his deal and he’ll be playing basketball and people can see what he looks like. So I just don’t think we’re gonna see Darius Garland move this off season.
Terry Pluto (38:35)
Yeah.
No,
unless somebody just says, we’ll take a chance on it. But I would hate to, right? No, no, no, you’re right. David. I’m saying, no, I I’m not hearing much, but I’m telling you, but what I was hearing is that if a team would go after him and be the same thing, the calves were told me that we’re not going to do it. They’re just kind of offering guys bad contracts. This, in other words, the only reason that cows would do this is they would be so concerned on that toe.
David Campbell (38:42)
And I’m just saying, that’s just me putting pieces together. I don’t have that for many. You have sources in the league and with the team, I don’t. I’m just putting that together, yeah.
Terry Pluto (39:09)
And with that time left on the contract, we just better get, get that thing out of here. Kind of like, yeah, him, him and his all over again. Yeah, exactly. Let’s see if we can get something. The basketball version of Luis Ortiz is kind of a second line prospect, but intriguing. and that’s not, so, but if you’re going for it, like the calves are, you’re better off trying to see how he comes back to your point. And then actually if he struggles again.
David Campbell (39:13)
And Andres Jimenez, yeah, ⁓ that kind of deal like that.
Terry Pluto (39:37)
He’s then he only has two years left on a contract and it’s just easier just to move. But in the meantime, they gotta do something.
David Campbell (39:48)
They do and it’ll be on the fringes of the roster, which is I think what you’ve been writing about what Chris Fedor or Ethan Sands have been talking about on the podcast. Okay, let me get to that. have an email here from long time listener, Kathleen Thompson about Garland and she says, hey Terry, regarding Darius Garland, we’ll see if the Cavs trade him. I don’t see him taking his game to another level in the playoffs. He’s a small guard, opposing teams are gonna target him. The Cavs can’t keep the roster as is, they need to make some moves.
Terry Pluto (39:53)
Right, the margins. Yeah.
David Campbell (40:14)
They need players who will perform around the regular season in the playoffs. Their bench was great in the regular season, but didn’t do much in the playoffs. So thanks for that, Kathleen. We know you’re a long time Cavs fan. So again, going back, and you’ve written this, Terry, and again, our Cavs reporters, it’s like a three-year window here. And as you have been saying in writing, I don’t see them just giving up on the window after year one when they’re with a...
Terry Pluto (40:24)
What do you think of what Kathleen said overall?
Yeah.
David Campbell (40:41)
Darius Garland thing, they would not be working from a position of strength right now. So that’s kind where I’m at.
Terry Pluto (40:45)
Yeah. But Kathleen has,
but then, how Catholic laid out, Kathleen laid out the facts, which are Darius has struggled the last two playoffs, has not been healthy. ⁓ I’ve been anti-small guard for quite a while combination. And, but they are, that’s why if Garland were healthy, you might be able to say, do something significant for him, but they probably can’t. Now, Kathleen’s other point is interesting. The bench.
because in some cases like Ty Jerome, Miami now you look back, that was just like a regular season games. But when the playoffs showed up, Ty Jerome got smaller in terms of his production. Then Kenny Atkinson, this would not have changed the series, but would have helped some of the games. For some reason, didn’t want to put Cole Porter out there. I’m sorry, Craig Porter Jr.
David Campbell (41:41)
Craig Porter Jr.
Terry Pluto (41:44)
Cole Anthony got traded senior moment, yeah, Craig Porter Jr. Because to me, he gets the ball up the floor. It’s like I’m watching the game the other night, Indiana and Oklahoma City. And by the way, you could tell Hal Burton’s got some kind of calf muscle problem. I mean, he’s a shell. But they had McConnell in there, kind of their version. He’s upgrade version over Porter, but this little guard that...
A lot of hustle, you get the ball up there and they’re cooking with him. And usually, Rick Carlisle knows you kind of ride to that horse and he backed off by the time he took McConnell back in, they were too far behind. They may have lost anyway, but he was creating something. The pressure that Oklahoma City put on the backcourt did not affect McConnell. And I really believe Indiana’s pressure would not affected ⁓ Porter because I have seen him pressured.
It doesn’t bother him. The modern NBA types don’t like Porter because he doesn’t shoot the three ball that well. And guess what? Neither does McConnell. But they still can really get it off and set up, break some pressure. They’re pesky, ⁓ all that kind of stuff.
David Campbell (42:58)
Well, again, like you don’t hear Halliburton talking about the injury that he has. Like if you’re, if you’re Rick Carlisle and you hear Darius Garland’s toe is, is people don’t know how bad it hurts me. ⁓ it’s really awful. Like I’m going at him with everything I got to try and wear him down and make him make some mistakes. So.
Terry Pluto (43:03)
No. No.
Right.
And you know,
and Kathleen was correct where she talked about and Chris Vidor has done a better job of even explaining that than I have of how Bart Garland does get targeted on ⁓ defense because of ⁓ sort of his size and his he’s tried to get stronger and everything else, but
I liked the bigger backcourt. Two years ago, when they played Donovan and Struus in the backcourt, I liked how it looked. I thought that was, and that still is a viable option, by the way, at least early in the season.
David Campbell (43:55)
Yeah, that’s true. Because Garland won’t be there. There’s people telling me that, and I think you mentioned Garland maybe coming off the bench at some point in the last month or so, people tell me the NBA doesn’t work that way.
Terry Pluto (43:57)
I won’t be there, yeah.
Yeah, I don’t see him. No,
I won’t see that. I’ve been saying that, and this could happen, ⁓ they could bring Jared Allen off the bench, do the Hot Rod Williams thing for older cast fans. A big guy who’s good enough to start, Lenny Wilkins, because they had Larry Nance, Hot Rod Williams, or Brad Doherty, a real big front court. And Lenny realized they really kind of needed somebody, least in the beginning,
David Campbell (44:19)
Yeah.
Terry Pluto (44:30)
a smaller player to be more defensive oriented for, I guess there and kind of just move the ball more. And he always had somebody like, um, uh, Mike Sanders and he had Winston Bennett and I’m sure I’m forgetting a couple of others. He’s just role players, but then he would bring hot rod off the bench for either door or Nance. And sometimes he’d throw them all three out there at the same time. Well, this would be the same thing too. Nobody plays three big men anymore, but the two.
You the two guys and you know, the thing about Jared Allen is I know fan, he frustrates fans, something or whatever. You can’t, you can’t come close to replicating what he does on that kind of salary with that kind of attitude. I mean, if Kenny Atkinson sat him down tomorrow and talked about this, Jared Allen, I know, cause I kind of did some background work on this. I’m not saying they’re doing it, but.
They really believe that he would do it because that’s how Jared Allen is wired the same way. How it Williams is wired, but he’s not a maximum contract and he doesn’t view himself as an officer, even though he made it once. Darius Garland is a hold it ball game there. As you said, that’s not how the NBA works. Darius Garland off the bench would be a real weapon. really would, but, I just, yeah, just, yeah, how it, how it works and.
David Campbell (45:49)
Yeah, a lot of a of ego and a lot of other issues that would have to be addressed there.
I don’t mean that he has an ego. I just mean you go from being a starter and an all-star to be any any guy would have a problem with that.
Terry Pluto (45:57)
That’s how it is. Max Contra. And then then
he’s a Max Contra guy. He even start. You know, you hear that.
David Campbell (46:07)
Hey, you know what? Once you’re spending the money, it doesn’t matter. The money’s gone, so just maximize the value.
Terry Pluto (46:10)
Exactly, but I’m just saying but this is right And
maybe you maybe we’re wrong and maybe they would you know, they would do that Now one of the arguments that somebody gave me when I did brush that is like well if you kind of watch they sort of split it up as it went along they started together and then one would go out one would come in but nonetheless, even if You’re playing Donovan say 32 or 34 say 32 minutes. That’s only 16 other minutes
were garland out there by himself there. So they’re still out there for his 30 minutes. You know, they’re still splitting it up quite a bit. ⁓ yeah, I know when I brought this up at their postseason press conference, ⁓ Kobe Altman just said, well, this past year, the regular seemed just proved they could play together. And he just, you know, threw that away. And I countered with, the play, well, he wasn’t healthy in the playoffs. I was like, okay, fine. And you learn this in press conference. This is not going to turn into.
Let’s just, you know, do bad talk radio here. But I also think he just didn’t even want to discuss it.
David Campbell (47:17)
Yeah. All right. So another reason that I think Terry, they’re going to let this thing ride. And again, it’s just me putting some pieces together. you’ve been writing about this too. they really want Evan Mobley to become more Janis-like. They need him to improve his ball handling so he can make his own shots and get to the basket easier. That is like a totally doable thing to do in one off season. It’s not like they’re asking somebody, well, listen, you need to up your three point percentage by
Terry Pluto (47:24)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
David Campbell (47:46)
by 15 percentage points. it’s not some unreal, it’s doable. A lot of players do this where they work on their hand on the off season and they come back in a much better place. Like this is a totally attainable thing for him to be able to put the ball on the floor and get to the basket. So that’s another reason that I think that like they know that this is easy for him to do with one summer of work. And when he comes back for the season, he’ll be a better, more advanced version of what he was before, which is.
Terry Pluto (47:54)
Mm-hmm.
David Campbell (48:15)
pretty pretty darn good from what we’ve seen. Yeah.
Terry Pluto (48:16)
Right. And he has that skill already. He handles the ball pretty
well for his size. He actually is pretty good passer too. So that’s in him. In fact, one of the other things they do regret from Indiana is they didn’t use Evan to help bring the ball up against that pressure. That was a mistake that they feel they made along with not using Porter more. You know, they do their postseason self scout. I always liked that. We’re doing our self. Are we going to do a self scout on the podcast?
David Campbell (48:45)
let’s do it. During the bye week, we’ll get together. So we’ll see. But I’m really interested to see what Evan Mobley’s handle game looks like when he comes back. And he’s in a good spot already. We saw some moves during the playoffs that, man, try stopping that, right? When he puts the ball on the floor. so.
Terry Pluto (48:46)
Yeah, that’s right.
Yeah, sure.
yeah, I mean, what key average I think 18 and nine against Indiana. That’s a winning performance. Yeah, like 40 or something. Yeah, right. Yeah, I it’s a winning performance. And his ankle actually was not 100%. And so there we go.
David Campbell (49:15)
Definitely, shot 58 % from the field, I think, and 43 % on three pointers,
All right, well, let’s wrap up the NBA segment here. Terry, I feel like we might’ve talked about this a few months ago, but I can’t remember. I wanted to put it in here. It’s an interesting idea from Joe Curry and Joe’s from Youngstown. says, hey, Dave and Terry, NBA players are always discussing load management. Would it help to shorten each quarter by two minutes? What do you think?
Terry Pluto (49:45)
I heard that
that was floated and it might have been by somebody in the commissioner’s office and the big objection all over the place is that all the records are based on 48 minutes, all that kind of stuff. By the way, do you want to know why the shot clock is 24 seconds?
David Campbell (50:08)
I think I knew the answer. Why?
Terry Pluto (50:10)
Okay, Danny by his own was one of the owners of I believe this, I hope I’m right. It was either Rochester or Syracuse in the old days. It’s in my book, Tall Tales. And cause I had heard he was, he kind of came up with the idea when they were before they had a clock cause Bob Cousy would like dribble out the last four minutes of the clock and it was, was bad. Yeah, it was bad. Yeah. So he’s, what he did is he looked at
David Campbell (50:30)
Yeah, one man, four corners, yeah.
Terry Pluto (50:37)
this games that from his team were in that were fun to watch in his mind. He looked at the number of shots that were taken in the game. He divided it into the 48 minute game and came up with the games that I liked based on the shots was like every 24 seconds. And that’s how they did it. So they tried it. It’s in there. And so I remember I called Danny by his own who actually actually owned a bowling alley and he was elderly at the time, but he still went to work.
And he told me the whole thing. He well, I just kind of made it up. That’s what I like. And he’s got like the first 24 second clock or whatever it was like in his office at that bowling alley. And it stayed ever since.
David Campbell (51:20)
That’s a great story. he basically reverse engineered what he thought would make the game enjoyable and came up with a number.
Terry Pluto (51:24)
Yeah, right.
And I think also at that point, I don’t know why it was 48 minutes versus 40. I don’t know that. Although Bob Ryan and I did write a book called 48 minutes, a night in the life of the NBA, but it was already 48 minutes. So that was, that was fun. But I heard that they do not want to go to like a college 40 minute game. They don’t want to do that.
David Campbell (51:47)
You mean just a total of 40 or not halves? You’re not talking about two 20 minute halves. You just mean 40 and.
Terry Pluto (51:51)
Well, what right what basically you put you
40 minutes versus 48 minutes, right? However, you want to break it up
David Campbell (51:56)
Yeah. So I mean,
baseball changed from, you know, 154 games to 162 and like the world didn’t end, right?
Terry Pluto (52:03)
Yeah, but they didn’t go from
nine innings to seven.
David Campbell (52:09)
But
they went from endless games that are tied going 20 innings to, you know, they changed things a few years ago too.
Terry Pluto (52:14)
But
they state the basic thing was still nigh. I know that.
David Campbell (52:19)
Yeah. I don’t know. I’m
intrigued by this. I was kind of doing some of the math and if you take out eight minutes per game times 82, that’s 656 minutes per season. And that comes out to like 13 and a half games. Less of running up and down the court, which might help guys stay healthy. I don’t know. I wonder if this is something they might try. I know in the G League, they probably wouldn’t want to do it because they want guys getting as many minutes as possible down there. But maybe during the preseason, they try it see what they think of it. I don’t know. I just...
Terry Pluto (52:28)
Okay.
Okay.
Mm-hmm.
We need
to check how many minutes they play in a G-Wing. Something tells me it’s 40, but I’m not positive.
David Campbell (52:53)
No, I’m not either. And I’ve been to G League games. just don’t remember. But if you could do that and not have guys taking off full games when you pay to go see somebody play, and then they, I don’t know, would that happen? They’d probably do both.
Terry Pluto (52:55)
Okay, yeah, that would be worth looking up real quick.
Maybe I’m cynical they I think they take it off anyway these guys are these
guys are pulling 30 to 32 minutes a game as it is now I Mean just I Mean, I’m sound like Charles Barkley. It’s like I remember when we you know We flew commercial and we’ve had four games and five days and 12 cities or you know, but it is sort of true and I don’t really I Don’t have a good explanation. Maybe they’ll do that. But also
David Campbell (53:13)
It’s true.
Hahaha.
Yeah.
Terry Pluto (53:35)
David, some other thoughts. You get more commercials in a 48 minute game.
David Campbell (53:42)
True, all right, you’re shooting down my hopes. Maybe it’s not gonna happen.
Terry Pluto (53:47)
yeah, give us Adelstilver a call.
David Campbell (53:49)
Because you’re right that the baseball when they
when they went to the pitch clock in baseball It didn’t cost any commercials. It just sped everything up. Like you’ve said that everything was still in the game. It was just faster.
Terry Pluto (53:55)
Yes, fed everything up. Yeah. Yeah.
And they drop more commercials in the actual play, which is hard to do in the NBA.
David Campbell (54:04)
Yeah, well, I like the idea. So thanks for the email and we appreciate you sending that in in Joe and I’m gonna keep lobbying for this to happen. So see how it goes. All right, let’s talk a little Browns here, Terry. We’re kind of in the break now between the mandatory mini camp and the start of training camp, but I know you’ve been looking at some Browns quarterback stuff that you want to get into. I’m eager to hear where you go with this. So go ahead.
Terry Pluto (54:07)
Okay.
You
Yeah. All
right. You know, it’s just first of all, who was the first that they’ve had? How many quarterbacks since 1999? Dave Campbell.
David Campbell (54:37)
I think it’s up to 40 now, right? Okay.
Terry Pluto (54:39)
40 is correct.
Who was number one?
David Campbell (54:43)
So they drafted Tim Couch from 1990, but I don’t think he started the first game in 1999. I think it was somebody else, but I don’t remember who. Who was it? Ty Detmer. Okay.
Terry Pluto (54:52)
Ty Dettmer, he was
gone by the fourth quarter, first game. Tim Couch played, yes. Yeah, he played ⁓ most of the others, yeah. All right, and who? Dave Campbell was number 40.
David Campbell (54:59)
Really? And then played the other 15.
Okay.
So that would have been the Baltimore game to end last season. And that was Bailey’s Zappie. I do remember that one. Yes.
Terry Pluto (55:17)
Yeah, that’s a tough one to get that one.
All right.
Deshaun Watson played 19 games. What other notable quarterback for the Browns played 19 games? Started.
David Campbell (55:36)
You’re stumping me on this one. Oh, OK.
Terry Pluto (55:37)
Charlie Fry.
But Brandon Whedon started 20. So who got the best investment for their money?
David Campbell (55:47)
Well, Terry
Deshawn still has a couple of years left on his deal, so he might play, So that’s pretty.
Terry Pluto (55:52)
Yeah, that’s, yeah. Oh Lord. I mean, I
was looking up some other stuff. Amanda Rabinowitz and I were doing some work for MPR commentary and we were looking at that list and I found a thing listing of, know, Brown’s quarterbacks listed by start since 1990. And I was like, what? There’s Charlie Frye and Deshaun Watson right there, but.
David Campbell (56:19)
Both at 19.
Terry Pluto (56:20)
Brandon Whedon got out from under the flag for one more game than they had. So there you go. So you could actually probably want some money on somebody and say, what do Charlie Fry and Deshaun Watson have in common besides that they also were with the Browns. What else is it?
David Campbell (56:38)
That’s a good bar bet you could win. Yeah, you stumped me on it for sure. okay. The other Browns thing we probably should talk about Terry. I think you’re done with quarterbacks, right? Nick Chubb has joined the Texans for one year. I think it was about $2.5 million. And then he issued a big thank you to Cleveland fans for what they’ve kind of done for him and during his time here. I know you’ve been writing about Nick Chubb, but any thoughts you want to add here real quick?
Terry Pluto (56:40)
Yeah, that’s correct.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
I know that they have people write those farewell things for them most of the time. And hopefully they at least talk to the guy. But that sounded so like Nick Chubb, just like everything else. Everything, every drop of blood at Nick Chubb is sincere. Because he’s either gonna be sincere or he’s just not gonna talk at all ⁓ if there’s something’s bothering him. And it was...
The thing that I always was thinking about there is now suppose I was Nick Chubb’s agent and it’s my job to figure out where would be the best place for him. And the minute the Browns are dragging their feet on this, and then I was hearing rumors, which there were that they were going to take a running back in the draft and Jerome Ford was getting ⁓ the contract team friendly contract. It’s like the last place really I would want to take.
Nick Chubb would be back to Cleveland. I don’t want him stuck behind these guys. they drafted two running backs. And also just for Nick’s legacy here. And you don’t want to see Nick Chubb on the end of the bencher. This week among the inactives and it’s Nick Chubb when he’s healthy. Now he may come all the way back. He may come part of the way back.
I could see him recreating himself. Now this is more in your area though. It’s kind of a power short yardage back. Good at picking up blitzes, that kind of thing. Cause I don’t know if he’s going to have the old burst that he had before, but I’ll tell you, he blasted people who were trying to bust the quarterback when he was in there.
David Campbell (58:50)
And that’s something that is very important when you have CJ Stroud back there, making sure that he’s staying upright. Yeah.
Terry Pluto (58:54)
Yes. And you paying the guy? Yeah. 2.5 million and that.
And so it’s a fresh start for him. And it’s a sad day for those of us and Chauvin, Chauvin, Phil Dawson are probably my favorite player since the bronze came back in 99. And, ⁓ but I know this, I would not want to see him get buried here or whatever. I’d rather see him go somewhere else and give it a shot. And if you prove everybody wrong, all the better for him.
David Campbell (59:23)
Yeah, and I know what you’re saying about the thing that he addressed to the fans. It kind of reminds, it wasn’t the same idea, but it kind of reminded me of LeBronze a little bit when he came back to Cleveland, when he told it to, I think it was Lee Montville from SI, if I remember right, from Sports Illustrated. But you could feel the connection between the statement and the player. I think that’s really astute of you to pick up on that, Terry. Yeah.
Terry Pluto (59:30)
Yeah.
Yeah, no, it was somebody else, yeah,
Yeah, I thought it was sincere and
So that’s a that’s it. But I also what it’s wanted to bring that out If you’re a fan sometimes you have to look it through the eyes of maybe not even the player but the player the man in charge of the woman in charge of who’s making the best business decision for the player because this is a business and At least by guaranteeing him two and a half million dollars Houston is saying we’re putting a little bit of skin in this game
you know, as opposed to a minimum, a veteran minimum contract with a whole bunch of incentives. So that’s something else you look for too.
David Campbell (1:00:21)
And I think it shows, mean, there’s people are always talking about Mike Tomlin calling him Mr. Chubb and just the respect that the league respects Nick Chubb for what he’s done and who he is. And I think that think that money is kind of a good indication of that. So, all right. Your book of the week, Terry, you have a book of the week and I know you’re huge into reading civil war books and civil war history. So you found another one here.
Terry Pluto (1:00:25)
Yeah, exactly.
Yes, and all of a
sudden this is an embarrassing thing David. ⁓ James Lee Burke wrote it and ⁓
David Campbell (1:00:49)
Flags on the Bayou is the title of it.
Terry Pluto (1:00:50)
Thank you very much,
because it’s sitting upstairs instead of bringing it down. James Lee Burke has done a lot of mysteries with a guy named Dave Robichaud, kind of a tough detective down in Louisiana. Well, this is set in 1863 to 1864 with the Civil War and when the South was falling apart. And what I love about it is told from a slave to a kind of a...
a crusty sheriff to a wounded veteran, all these different things that are going on and the cultural and societal differences there. You know, the upper class with the plantations, the white lower class suddenly feeling like, you know, they were sent to war to all these places like Antietam and Gettysburg to get butchered so these guys could keep their slaves. Of course, the slaves feeling like we’re just not entities. General Sherman and the others,
breathing down their neck and also, which is true, cause I did research a lot of this, was sort of a brand, ⁓ bands of these marauding kind of veterans from both service branches sort of got together and were just kind of out there robbing and wandering around the steep South. Yes. And it’s, and some of those guys became sort of the early ⁓ roots of the Ku Klux Klan. It’s a,
David Campbell (1:02:04)
⁓ really?
Terry Pluto (1:02:17)
I mean, James Lee Burks, there’s always kind of violence in his books and so on, but I just find it fascinating. And the guy’s 82 years old and he can still really write. so read that title again, David, because I’m having a senior moment.
David Campbell (1:02:32)
yeah, it’s called Flags on the Bayou by James Lee Birkin. It’s funny, I was watching some, I don’t know why I got down this wormhole, but ⁓ Stephen King was being interviewed and he said that somebody gave him advice one time that when you’re writing a book, you want to make it like ⁓ a bonfire and you just start it with a little spark and a very small flame, but then the characters come out of the woods and they each throw a little tiny piece of wood.
Terry Pluto (1:02:39)
Mm.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
David Campbell (1:02:56)
into the fire and they keep adding to it. It sounds like that’s what you’re talking about with this flag is on the bayou is just that there’s all these different forces that come together to kind of stir the story into one big kind of pot, huh?
Terry Pluto (1:02:58)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, it’s like the old way of doing business in the South has fallen apart. The new way is not in yet, which actually there. And so it’s, there’s a vacuum and, and, and then a lot of, by then people were very disheartened and discouraged by on both sides by what happened at civil war. The bloodshed was incredible. And
David Campbell (1:03:18)
Yeah.
Terry Pluto (1:03:31)
It’s in just the way he sets it down there. And Louisiana is really not a place you read a lot. Maybe New Orleans kind of the big easy, but this is set around a place called New Iberia, which is a real town and some others. So yeah, James Lee Burke, ⁓ check it out.
David Campbell (1:03:46)
All right. Okay. We’ve been asking listeners to send in their stories about Tom Hamilton, things that you remember about him, things that you’ve remembered as a fan, or maybe you met Tom somewhere. And I thought we would start those because, boy, we’re a little more than a month away from Hall of Fame weekend. I believe it’s the 25th, 26th, and 27th when Tom Hamilton will be recognized and honored at the Baseball Hall of Fame in Cooperstown. So we have our first one. I thought we would start with this one from Ken in South Carolina.
And Ken says, Hey Terry and David, I’m writing in response to your invitation to submit memories of listening to Tom Hamilton. My memory is a bit different and I think special. I am a native Clevelander of around Terry’s age who grew up loving the tribe and following every game. In 1993, I was living in Columbus and had recently lost my wife to cancer. Our children were 10 and 12. My 12 year old son was a baseball player and Indians fan. Out of the blue, a letter arrived in our mail addressed to him. It was from Tom Hamilton.
inviting my son to attend a game in the radio booth in the final weekend of baseball in the old municipal stadium with Tom and Herb score. The team was moving to Jacobs field the next year. The letter had a PS at the end telling my son that he could also bring his dad if he wanted. I had no connections to Tom Hamilton that I was aware of and to this day do not know what led him to reach out to my son. We attended the game and spent the first five innings squeezed into the cramped radio booth in the second deck.
Terry Pluto (1:05:09)
Thank
David Campbell (1:05:12)
before moving down to seats behind first base. Tom and her were complete gentlemen. It’s a memory that brings a tear to think about more than 30 years later. The next Indians game my son and I attended together was game five of the 1995 World Series held on my birthday. Oral Hershizer out-dueled Greg Maddox and Jim Tomey hit a homer late in the game that was something out of the natural. Baseball is timeless and so apparently is Tom Hamilton. Still the voice connecting Cleveland fans to the game and to each other.
and now to take his deserved place in the baseball hall of fame. Congratulations and thank you Tom Hamilton. Again, that’s from Ken in South Carolina. That’s lovely, Ken. Thank you so much.
Terry Pluto (1:05:51)
Yeah, that is that is amazing. I would have kind of pushed Tom a little bit. How did you find me? that’s that’s somebody must have tipped Tom off, so that’s great.
David Campbell (1:05:57)
Yeah!
Yeah. and again, we’d love to hear more of these. have about a month here. We’d love to read as many listener emails as we can about Tom before the big weekend. So send those again to sports at cleveland.com. And if you want to put Terry’s talking or even Tom Hamilton in the subject line, we will try to get it on one of the upcoming podcasts. So I think that’s all we got, Terry. That was a good way to end. Yeah. All right. We will be back next week and man, we’ll have some more guardians to talk about. They are continuing their rest coast road swing.
Terry Pluto (1:06:22)
That is it, David.
David Campbell (1:06:31)
We will be back next week and then man, it’s gonna be 4th July the week after that. Have a great sports week and we’ll talk to you on Terry’s Talking.