CLEVELAND, Ohio — In this episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast, hosts Ethan Sands and Chris Fedor delve into the current state of the Cavs, focusing on the importance of De’Andre Hunter and the potential impact he could have on the team’s future.
Takeaways:
OKC and Indiana Demonstrate Playoff Adaptability: Both NBA Finals teams have shown remarkable adaptability in the playoffs, finding alternative ways to succeed when forced out of their comfort zones.
Bench Depth Proves Critical in Playoff Success: The NBA Finals teams demonstrated the importance of bench depth, with different role players stepping up on different nights.
Questions About Darius Garland as a “Winning Player”: Concerns exist about whether Darius Garland can be a “winning player” in playoff basketball due to his defensive limitations.
Jarrett Allen’s Playoff Effectiveness Questioned: Concerns are raised about Jarrett Allen’s effectiveness as a playoff performer beyond a few isolated games.
Cavs’ Core Four May Not Be Championship Caliber: The Cavaliers’ current core may not be sufficient to win a championship, suggesting potential trades involving core players.
Donovan Mitchell and Evan Mobley Viewed as True Playoff Performers: Confidence is expressed in Donovan Mitchell and Evan Mobley as legitimate playoff performers.
Kenny Atkinson’s System Deserves More Time with Garland: The Cavaliers should give Darius Garland another opportunity under Kenny Atkinson’s system for defensive improvements and mental toughness.
De’Andre Hunter’s Integration Remains Incomplete: DeAndre Hunter remains somewhat overlooked, and his full integration into the team’s system is a critical offseason priority.
Garland’s Injury Timeline Affects Trade Considerations: Darius Garland’s injury timeline complicates potential trade scenarios, potentially reducing trade offers.
Modern NBA Success Requires Fit Over Raw Talent: The current NBA era prioritizes team fit, depth, style, and roster versatility over raw talent accumulation.
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Transcript
NOTE: This transcript was generated by artificial intelligence and could contain misspellings and errors.
Ethan Sands: What up, Cavs Nation? I’m your host, Ethan Sands, and I’m back with another episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. And joining me today, Chris Fedor, beat reporter cleveland.com the best in the Land covering the Cavs. And Chris, I wanted to do another rendition of hey Chris courtesy of our Subtext subscribers who send in their questions for our weekly episode to get their voices heard and to also have daily communication with us on the platform directly to their phones. And today’s episode has a lot of depth to it as we still get to cover the NBA Finals with the first question. And it comes from Bruce in West Palm Beach, Florida, Florida. He says, hey, Chris, watching the finals, it just seems like those teams have more winning players who step up to make big contributions in the playoffs. Do you feel that the Cavs have enough of those winning players? And if so, who could they be next season? So obviously, I think we have to give some context to this conversation. First, the Oklahoma City Thunder have roared back from down 2:1 in the NBA Finals to now having a 3:2 series lead and are heading back to Indiana for game six with the opportunity to close the series out. Chris, first, before we get into Bruce’s question, what do you think about the series? What do you think about the information that has been given to you about these winning players and also how they could be more winning players coming off the benchmark?
Chris Fedor: Yeah, I just think, Ethan, the thing that stands out is, you know, both of these teams are comfortable being uncomfortable. There have been times throughout the course of the series that Indiana has tried to take OKC out of what it wants to do most. Then there have been times throughout the course of the series where OKC has taken Indiana out of what it’s wanted to do the most, and they made adjustments and they still found a way to counter those things and be successful. For example, you know, a lot of Shays stuff, stuff early on in the series, even in series past, a lot of that came in isolation situations. In the series against Indiana, they’ve kind of been forced to take him off the ball, play him off the ball, get him the ball in the post. Just different ways to utilize Shea and try and find a way to generate more quality offense. So that’s been an adjustment that you’ve seen. It’s not exactly what OKC has done throughout the course of the season, but it’s what this series has called for. And then if you talk about Indy, you know, a lot of times the ball is in the hands of Nemhard instead of Tyrese Halliburton because he’s being hounded by Lou Dort. Or sometimes it’s Pascal Siakam in the post following a switch or Miles Turner in the post following a switch. So I think the thing that stands out to me is that these two teams can play a bunch of different ways and they can have success a bunch of different ways. And on top of that, like they’re okay if the go to thing that they want to be is taken away from them. It doesn’t mean that they just abandon everything. It’s just they find ways within their own system, within the structure of the way that they play to still be successful. So when teams make them uncomfortable, they’re comfortable with that, they just find other ways to do it and they’re not rattled. And the best way that they can, they stay true to themselves and who they truly are, just with subtle differences within how they’re going to attack. So that’s one thing that stands out to me. The other thing that stands out to me is the depth in this series. Multiple guys coming off the bench for Indiana making big time contributions and it doesn’t have to be the same guy every single night. That’s the beauty of a bench. One night it might be TJ McConnell in the third quarter, another night it might be Obie Toppin, another night it might be Benedict Mather. You just need one or two of those guys to provide some kind of support for your big time players, for your high minute players. And then look on the other side of it. OKC Caruso playing starters minutes. But sometimes Kayson Wallace comes off the bench and he provides stingy defense and timely three point shots or Aaron Wiggins one night. So again, it doesn’t have to be the same guy over and over and over again. But if you can get one to two of those guys that step up and provide the kind of lift that they’re supposed to coming off the bench in that role that they’re in, that can make such a difference. When you’re talking about the course of a seven game series, because you know, asking Shay to basically play mistake free basketball while dealing with the pressure and the intensity of Indiana, the attention that he’s getting from the Pacers, even for an mvp, you know that’s a tough ask, especially in the NBA finals against the best team from the Eastern Conference. So both these teams at various points have gotten the support for their star players, they’ve shown off their depth and it’s been really impressive to me how you know, these two teams, for the most part, are staying true to who they are and what they believe in. Even when, you know, pressure ramps up and even though expectations are extremely high, there’s different guys that are stepping up and coming through in a big way.
Ethan Sands: Chris, you mentioned a few names, right? T.J. mcConnell, Shay Yodesh Alexander, Obi Toppin, Jalen Williams. We talk a lot about the character that has to be there and the mental toughness that has to be there to be able to accomplish what you’re talking about, to have the mental wear and. And the mental fortitude to not let anything affect you, even if the opposing team is taking you out of your game, taking you out of your element. And I think that’s what makes winning players, right? It’s an attitude. It’s a mindset. It’s a thought process. And obviously, you have to have the physical skills to be able to have that success, to have that mindset, or to have the offensive or defensive success that allows you to have that upbringing of confidence. But to get back to Bruce’s question, do you feel like the Cavs have enough of those winning players? Because we’ve had this conversation about mental toughness, the competitive nature that is within that, and whether or not the Cavs have players that have that dog, that competitive fire. But do they have enough winning players? And who would those be to you?
Chris Fedor: I don’t think they have enough winning players, if we’re being perfectly honest about it. I think I have legitimate questions about. And look, winning players, yeah, part of it’s a mentality, but the other part of it is, does a player’s game, does their style translate to winning basketball? Are there weaknesses, ones that can be exposed in a seven game environment? Are their strengths so powerful that you almost overlook some of those weaknesses, or you live with some of those weaknesses? How can you make an impact on the floor? And that, to me, is what it’s about. It’s not about production. It’s not about, you know, stats. It’s not about how good your numbers look at the end of the day, it’s, are you impacting winning basketball at a high level? And I have legitimate questions about some of the guys on this roster and how they impact winning. And I think one of them is Darius. And it’s not to pile on Darius or anything like that, but it’s with his defensive deficiencies that he has. He has to be so great on the offensive end of the floor to mask those, to make it so that those aren’t as glaring and you know, there’s so many different numbers that, that point to impact and you hate to just dig into stats because they don’t tell the entire story. They tell a story, but they might not tell the entire story. You know, for six years since Darius has been in the NBA, the Cavs as a team have been negative as a defensive team with them on the floor. There’s just no way around that. There’s no way to sugarcoat that they have been a better defensive team with him on the bench. Now can they overcome that? Of course, yes. And they’ve tried. They’ve put high quality plus defenders around him to try and mask some of those weaknesses. But it just requires him to be so good on the offensive end of the floor and so impactful on the offensive end of the floor to cover up for some of those weaknesses. And I just don’t know with how much of a liability on defense he is and how much he has shown to be over these six years that like, I don’t know. I don’t know if the Cavs can win a championship with him being one of the three most important players on this roster. Because I have legitimate questions about how his game translates to playoff level basketball. The intensity, the physicality, the toughness required, the grind, the conditioning aspect of it, the mental exhaustion that comes in a seven game series. I have legitimate questions about whether he can ever be the kind of impactful player that we have seen Tyrese Halliburton be for Indiana throughout two playoff runs. The kind of impactful player. And I’m talking impact now. I’m talking impact, I’m not talking production. The kind of impactful player that we’ve seen Jalen Williams be in this playoff run for okc. The kind of impact player that we’ve seen Shay Gilda’s Alexander be in this playoff run. Again, Darius has strengths. His speed, his quickness, his ability to handle the basketball, organize the team, get them in the flow of an offense, handle the full court pressure of a team because of his ball handling, because of his speed and his quickness and stuff like that. But man, I just keep going back to that and I keep wondering about that because Darius hasn’t done it at the highest level. I just have questions about that because Jared Allen has only been really consistently great for four total playoff games and that was the four against Orlando before he had his ribs pierced. I have questions about him as an impactful, every night, 30 minute a night cornerstone playoff performer. I mean, I don’t know how anybody could look at these last couple of playoff runs by the Cavs, and I don’t know how they could say point blank, yes, Darius Garland is going to be a winning playoff basketball player. Yes, Jared Allen is going to be a winning playoff basketball player. At some point, they’re going to have to prove it at both ends of the floor, especially when it comes to Darius at both ends of the floor. Ethan, he was healthy against the Miami Heat. He was healthy until the end of game two, and that was like the final two minutes of game two. So we’ve got two full games of fully healthy Darius against quite possibly the worst playoff team that we’ve ever seen in NBA history because no 10 seed has ever made the playoffs. So they were a terrible offensive team. They were a terrible team to get into the playoffs. And in those two games when Darius was fully healthy, the Cavs were a significantly better defensive team. With him off the floor, I don’t know how I’m supposed to ignore that. I don’t know how the Cavs could ignore that. I think at some point Darius is just going to have to prove that he’s not as much of a defensive liability as what he has shown to be in his first six seasons in the NBA and including this playoff run, healthy and not healthy. So, like the whole thing about, well, Darius wasn’t healthy against Indiana, you’re right, he was not. He was not the same player. He was not all star level Darius, but he was healthy for two of those games against Miami and the Cavs still were a better basketball team statistically with him on the bench as opposed to on the floor.
Ethan Sands: I think because of how much faith Kenny Atkinson showed in Darius in his first year here and how many comparisons he made to Stephen Curry and watching him develop and turn into this guy that opposing offenses weren’t able to target, weren’t able to put into every single action and then attack on the defensive end. I think the Cavs would be mistaken not to give Darius one more shot, to give Kenny Atkinson one more shot in this offense. I think that his opportunity when healthy is important for Kenny Atkinson’s development as a head coach and also for Darius Garland’s professional growth and to figure out if he is capable of being a winning player in this NBA, in this league, because I understand exactly what you’re talking about. The defensive end has been the mark on Darius since he came into the NBA, right? And Kenny Atkinson addressed that in his introductory press conference and then he addressed it throughout the entire regular season saying, we’re not hiding Darius it is going to be personal for us to allow teams to put him into actions so he gets used to this. But maybe now in the summertime, he has the time to sit down with Darius and figure out a better way for him to work on this. Maybe Darius Garland is already in the weight room, already working on his body. And this goes back to the maturity factor that Kenny Atkinson referenced in the latter half of the regular season and making sure that Darius understood that, that now that he had put the work in with his body, it was time to put the work in with his mind. And I think when we talk about all of the mental toughness that we’ve talked about throughout the entire summer, there may not be a player that the Cavs need to grow in that area more than Darius Garland. And it’s because of what he is capable of. It’s because of what his ceiling is. And again, I wrote this article in, in the season about comparing Steph and Darius and it is not comparing the two players because Steph is one of one, arguably the greatest shooter of all time. Darius Garland is using that as a blueprint to find a way to make an impact on both ends of the ball or to not be as a liability as he has been throughout the six years of his NBA career to this point. So with that being said, I think it’s important that we continue to have this conversation about Darius, especially throughout the regular season, especially throughout the playoffs at the Cavs. So get there all these different things.
Chris Fedor: I, I think it’s also important to point out, like why we’re talking about Darius, why we’re talking about Jarrett. Because you don’t have questions about Donovan as an impactful, winning playoff performer, do you?
Ethan Sands: I do not.
Chris Fedor: I don’t either. I, I don’t think a lot of people around the NBA do. I think you can honestly look at the course of his career and say, yeah, there have been slip ups, yeah, there have been times or series where he’s been outplayed or he hasn’t played up to his own standard. Right. The standard of excellence that he demands from himself. The standard of excellence that people have come to expect from a first team all NBA guy, from a multiple time allstar, from a borderline top 10 NBA player. Right. So there have been moments throughout Donovan’s career where he just hasn’t met that standard. Standard. But for the most part, I think there’s a belief and there’s an understanding based on what we’ve already seen from him that his game does translate to high level Playoff basketball, that some of these losses, some of these early exits with Donovan are more related to his supporting cast and the readiness of his teammates and other factors that weren’t about Donovan specifically. And I think we can look here at Evan Mobley and say, you know, yeah, I mean, he was kind of up and down in the Indiana series. Maybe he didn’t play up to the standard of, of second team, all NBA on a nightly basis. But I think you could see the vision of Evan being a successful playoff level player, a successful playoff winner, because of everything that he does that impacts the game at both ends of the floor. Because you do think he’s going to get a little bit stronger and more comfortable out on the perimeter because he can guard on the perimeter and on the inside. So I don’t think, even though, like Evan maybe wasn’t ready for the secondary role in this playoff run, I think you see the blueprint and you see the vision of how one day it could come together for him. So where else are you looking? I mean, when you’re talking about the most important players in this organization, you start with Donovan, you talk about Evan. But if there aren’t questions, questions there. Now you keep going down that list and you get to Darius, you get to Jared Elk, you get to DeAndre Hunter, right. You get to Ty Jerome, if he’s going to be back. You get to Dean Wade, you get to Max Str, you get to Sam Merrill and some of these other guys. I don’t have that many questions about DeAndre. I think he can do it in the playoffs. I think he has the kind of skill set that works in the playoffs. I think he impacts winning in the playoffs because of the type of player that he is. I think Max Strus, for all of his inconsistencies as an outside shooter and maybe his inconsistencies from a scoring standpoint, I think he is a playoff performer. I think he is a kind of guy who helps a team in the playoffs because if it gets mucky, if it gets yucky, if it gets stuck in the mud with your offense, he can loosen up a defense, he can create some gravity, he can create some movement, and, you know, in the right situation, he can be tough, competitive and physical enough on the defensive end of the floor where he’s not just going to get played off the floor or he’s not going to be a complete and utter defensive liability. Ty Jerome, there are legitimate questions about him as a playoff performer now, you know, you kind of have to give him a longer leash here. Because he doesn’t have a lot of playoff experience. And you say to yourself, okay, what did he learn from this run? What did he learn from the series against Indiana? How much is he going to be better because of that? But he was bad, bad. Like bad, bad, bad. So much so that Kenny Atkinson, you know, benched him for the first half of game five. And I don’t think he was wrong to do that because Ty just wasn’t giving them what he gave them throughout the course of the season on offense and on defense. He was dreadful. So I have questions about Tyler as a playoff guy and whether his game, because of his defensive deficiencies can translate to high level playoff winning basketball. But for all of those people out there listening, the reason why we spend more of our time talking about Darius and Jarrett is because that’s where the questions arise for this team. And we’ll talk about Ty Jerome, because I think there’s a question there. I think we’ll talk about Isaac Kokoro because there’s a legitimate question about him as a player, playoff performer, because teams just don’t guard him, teams don’t respect his offense and he continues to get played off the floor. And Dean Wade, for all of his versatility, for all of his ability to be a connector on offense, for all of the things that he can do defensively, you know, until he’s more willing as a shooter, until he plays with more confidence in a playoff environment, I think you have to attach a lot of playoff related questions to him as well. So I think the number’s four. I don’t think that’s a great number for a team that has championship aspirations. But based on everything that I believe about this team and everything that I’ve seen, I think the number’s four. I think it’s Donovan, Evan, Max and DeAndre and then questions attached to basically every other player on this roster.
Ethan Sands: So to continue with our hey Chris episode, we kind of already got into this question slightly and I’m not going to put much words in Chris’s mouth, but we’ll circle back to this in a second. The question comes from Stefan in Parma who says, I understand that the team has a lot of limitations with the second apron, but it seems to me that three straight years of playoff failures indicate that something needs to be changed. In your opinion, is it enough to just switch out a few bench players or does some change need to be made to the core? Chris, to me it sounds like you’re saying it needs to be a change in the core. I’m more of a belief that around the margins, the Cavs could not trust or believe in some of these players around the margins enough to hand the keys to them, even for a quarter. We seen Ty Jerome in the regular season go for huge numbers, huge quarters, but I really did not feel like there was anybody outside of the starting five in the Indiana Pacer series that had one of those games with where you like, TJ McConnell has 17 points in the third quarter. Obi Topman has 15 points in the fourth quarter. There wasn’t a person that came off the bench and gave them the same kind of spark that they had given them in the regular season. And this goes back to the winning players, right, and the playoff atmosphere and the competitive sphere and all these things that are entirely connected. But to me, I think the Cavs have a core that led to one of the best offenses in the NBA, obviously, so clearly it was working to some capacity. But when the playoffs come around, things change internally, mentally, physically when it comes to this team. And it feels like to me that they need to make changes around the margins to bring in more winning heavy players or players that have the capabilities and the skill sets to. To match or meet the moment, and also limit the amount of liability in the players around them. Talking about length, talking about defense, talking about size, talking about backup centers that could also fill these roles feels like last year we were having this conversation, but it feels like there’s more clear answers. But not a whole lot of players that are available or at the price point that the Cavs can acquire, require that would fill the needs that they have in this offseason. Am I right to say that you believe that the core needs to be changed for the Cavs?
Chris Fedor: Yeah. If the goal is to win a championship, yes. And we’ve talked about this analogy before, Ethan. You know, if you’re playing poker and you have a pretty good hand, you have to be really, really cautious about how much you’re willing to change that hand. Right? And I totally understand the Cavs sitting here and saying, hey, look, we weren’t fully healthy, okay? This was year one in Kenny Atkinson’s system. There were some things that, that happened in that series against Indiana where if the ball would have bounced a certain kind of way or if we would have come through in a late game situation, what would it felt like in both locker rooms? Would there have been different confidence coming out of the Cavs and maybe zapped confidence from Indiana? So. So, like, I. I think there are things that this front office can certainly tell themselves and that would make them feel good about themselves going into next season. Another thing that they could say is, hey, Darius is going to be better. Darius became an all star again in his career and he can build on that. You know, Evan Mobley is going to continue to get better. He’s going to be a more complete, well rounded offensive player. He’s going to be a better defensive player. If you can believe that the reigning defensive player of the year could still potentially get better on the defensive end of the floor. DeAndre Hunter is probably going to be more comfortable in year two because he’s not coming in in February and trying to find his place, trying to find his role, trying to find his fit both on and off the court while changing residences and all that different stuff. So I definitely think there are things that this front office can lean into and they can tell themselves and then they can come to a conclusion that, hey, we’re pretty good team, this is a pretty good situation. We could be the second best team in the Eastern Conference behind Indiana going into the year. Maybe we’re the third best team in the conference behind Indiana and New York going into this year, but that’s still a pretty good place to be. So they could tell themselves that, and I don’t think they would be wrong from that evaluation because I do think there are inherent ways where they can just grow organically and internally. But to me, this is about winning a championship. To me, this is about showing something in a 16 game season that this core group has not been able to show for a variety of reasons, some of those outside of their control. And I just have legitimate questions about two of their four most important players when it comes to playoff level basketball. The physicality, the intensity, the demand, the competitiveness. I just wonder about Jared Allen and Darius Garland. And they are two of the four most important players. They’re two of the four highest paid players on this roster. So to me, if there’s a way to turn either one of those guys into and I think the thing that also stands out to me about this NBA Finals and these playoffs in general, this is a new era in the NBA. This is a new cba. This is a new set of limitations when it comes to roster and team building because of all of the first apron, second apron and all of the complications that come with that level of financial spending. So I don’t think we’re in an era, Ethan, where it’s just the most talented team wins. I don’t think it’s about that. I think fit matters A great deal. I think depth matters a great deal. I think style matters a great deal. I think versatility within a roster matters a great deal. But it’s like, I think you could honestly say that New York had more high level talent than Indiana. I think you could honestly say that the Knicks, top to bottom with their roster, probably the more talented team, but that didn’t win. And there was an era where we were playing in the NBA and it’s like, how good was your star player against the other star player? Did you have two stars versus one star? Did you have three stars versus two stars? But a big part of this is fit. Like, yes, OKC has high level talent, yes, OKC has talent dispersed throughout the roster, but the pieces fit. There’s a connectedness that they play with. There’s a trust that they play with. There’s a versatility that they have within the roster. There aren’t any egos or it doesn’t seem like there are egos. So if we were talking about just the Cavs against the top tier teams that, that we believe are going to be the top tier teams going into next season, I just don’t know that the fit on this team, as seamless as it is for some of these other places. So that’s something that, that I think the Cavs have to consider. And because of all of those factors, if I was president of basketball, Kobe Altman, as painful as it may be, as difficult as it may be, I would consider the possibility. I’m not saying I would do it. I would have to know what those offers are that are in front of me that I would have to say yes or no to. But I would absolutely consider the possibility because I think there’s a way to make this team better. And I think there’s a need to make this team better than. Than what it is. I don’t believe the Cavs are good enough. I don’t believe their core is good enough when it comes to winning a championship. I don’t believe their core is ready enough when it comes to winning a championship. So for me, if I’m Kobe, I’m exploring the possibility of changing this roster slightly within the core group because I. I think that’s their best pathway to playoff level success, not those other things.
Ethan Sands: Chris, I think it’s interesting that you mention the camaraderie, the chemistry, togetherness of some of these teams, obviously referencing OKC and Indiana because those are the last two teams standing. But for all that the Cavs were this season, it felt like and we talked about it throughout the year that they were the most selfless team in the league. It felt like every piece gelled, it felt like everybody got along. And even when Jordanian and Kara Silvert exited stage left, it felt like Deandre Hunter came in. And there was no animosity. There was no, oh, you just took the spot of two guys that were huge in this locker room. It was more of a welcoming and to some extent it helped that his best friend was already on the team in tied Jerome But I do think that this Cavs team has no egos and if they are, we simply haven’t seen that come to light, come to fruition, come to the surface. But I do think context is important and I want to give something to our listeners as well. Obviously we’ve talked a lot about Darius Garland and and some trade avenues and frameworks throughout the summer, but the reality of the situation and we’ve talked about this on a separate podcast, which I implore you to go check it out if you want more in depth knowledge on Darius Garland situation Darius Garland Thoughts from the Wine and Gold Talk Podcast Darius Garland is going to be out until at least October, at least coming back to some form of basketball activity, activities during training camp. That could mean running on a treadmill, that could mean running up and down the floor. That could mean doing defensive slides, whatever. That is the reality of Darius Garland and now the Cavs getting trade offers because obviously there are going to be teams that are going to try and slight the Cleveland Cavaliers be like, hey, well he’s injured. Maybe we can dumb down this price a little bit and get him off. So that’s what Chris is getting into. You have to be able to see a offer and be like, hey, this actually makes sense for us. It doesn’t feel like we’re getting jiff. And especially after the entire Desmond Bain trade where he got traded for five overall picks. That is a whole new level. It sent the benchmark. That’s an entirely different podcast and we’ll do later this week, but it makes the Cavs thick and I think it makes the conversations and the situation even more difficult. And we’ve talked a little bit more about playoff depth. We talked about the competitive spirit. We also did a separate podcast on that. And again, I implore you, if you want a separate podcast solely focused on the depth, the importance of NBA playoff depth in today’s era of the NBA, we have a podcast already out on live YouTube and on Spotify, Apple podcasts, wherever you want to go. Check those out. I want you guys to go get the content that you need. And sometimes we get these subtext questions and I just link to the latest podcast for them so they don’t have to listen to us talking about it again because there are comments in our YouTube channel, in our Apple podcast review, Spotify reviews that are like, you guys talk about the same thing. I’m like, yes, because we want to make sure that hammer down on the point and the conversations that you guys want, especially with knowing that not everybody listens to every single podcast. So if you do, we appreciate you. But some things are going to feel a little bit repetitive because not everybody is on that same level. Okay, now let’s get back to these subtext questions. This one comes from Dave NPA. He says, why do we keep acting like DeAndre Hunter isn’t on this team? I feel like I never hear his name mentioned. He was a mid season acquisition. What’s he going to look like with a full camp with the team? It took Siakam an offseason to fully settle in with Indiana and well, we know how that turned out. I think we should stand pat until we see a fully realized DeAndre Hunter. We still don’t know what this team’s true ceiling is. Okay, first and foremost, shout out to Chris because he has talked about DeAndre Hunter throughout this podcast and we’ve mentioned him a couple of times throughout the off season. But Dave’s right, there have been multiple times this summer where we have left out DeAndre Hunter from these conversations because we don’t know what his true ceiling, his true potential is with this team. And I think it’s important to note that we’ve talked about the summer plans, the summer regimens for Kenny Atkinson in his first true summer in Cleveland. I wrote an article about it, the five things that Kenny Atkinson needs to do with this summer. One of them listed off DeAndre Hunter and getting him acclimated. Because there were multiple times throughout the regular season, multiple times throughout the playoffs. Which was most alarming to me when Kenny when Kenny Atkinson admitted to the fact that he was still learning, getting to know DeAndre Hunter and even though that they didn’t have enough practices, even though they didn’t have enough time to integrate him into the system, into the offensive system. And you have this guy having one true practice before getting into the playoffs. And I think that is one alarming two it makes sense for how the Cavs ran their system throughout the season, having minimal practices, more rest and recovery days, all of these things. But DeAndre Hunter is one of the most important players for this team. That’s why Kobe Altman made that gesture, went and got him all these things. Right. But the reality of this is is DeAndre Hunter needs to feel a part of the offense. He needs to feel like he’s not isocentric. He needs to feel like he’s not just going and getting his own bucket on each given possession. Kenny Atkinson is the person that can unlock that with him, whether or not he’s going to come off the bench or being the starting lineup. We’ve had that conversation already this summer as well. I think either way, there needs to be an acclimation period for DeAndre Hunter and Kenny Atkinson where even if there’s nobody else in the gym, nobody else in the film room, sit down, have a conversation and say, this is what I can see from you. This is what you want. Let’s find a middle ground so we can make you the most impactful player. He’s the guy that if Dean Wade ends up not being on this team next year, you say hobby. Oh, it’s because we still have DeAndre Hunter to fill in those roles. Oh, if you don’t have Isaac Okoro, hey, we still have a perimeter defender in DeAndre Hunter who can also guard guys like Victor Wembanyama and some other centers. So the versatility, the offensive production, and then the defensive pedigree that won him ACC defensive player of the year in college. That’s all what is there? It just has to be tapped into. It just has to be unlocked. Chris, how do you. How important do you think DeAndre is and what do you think this summer means for him and Kenny Atkinson and this Cavs organization?
Chris Fedor: I mean, even there were guys in the locker room who, after The Cavs acquired DeAndre and the raw emotions of losing Caris LeVert and George Diang from the locker room, once they processed all of that, they were like, hey, this guy could be the missing piece. This is. Yeah, it was difficult trading away Caris and George, but we needed Somebody like DeAndre. And everybody said as the season was going on, it’s hard to say that the number one seed in the Eastern Conference needs something. It’s hard to say that the number one offense in the NBA needs something. But the front office recognized that they needed something that DeAndre brings that they didn’t already have on the roster. And the players quickly realized that they needed the skill set of DeAndre. Three level scoring. He can get his own bucket. He can create offense for himself rather than having Other guys create it for him. He can defend multiple positions. He can play the 3, 4, or in some cases the 5. If Evan Mobley is going to play the 5 as a solo big, that DeAndre could play the 4 next to him. So there are just a lot of different ways that, that I do think the cavs can use DeAndre and there are a lot of different ways that DeAndre can help this team, both in the short term and in the long term. And part of the reason why they acquired DeAndre and what they liked about DeAndre at the time of the trade deadline was his contract. Some other teams around the NBA were like, nah, I don’t really want that kind of contract. I don’t want to lock myself into that kind of money for that many years for somebody like DeAndre. But the Cavs were like, cool. Somebody under contract that can play alongside our core four. Somebody under contract that fits our contention window, somebody who has played in the playoffs before, somebody who, before he got traded to the Cavs, might have been on his way to sixth man of the year or at the very least, runner up for six man of the year. Before all of a sudden, you know, Ty Jerome took those votes away and DeAndre kind of got lost in the shuffle and two teammates had a hard time, you know, splitting up the votes in, in. In a way that it would have been if DeAndre would have stayed there in Atlanta and kept putting up the numbers that he was putting up for the Hawks. So I think because he’s willing to start or come off the bench, because he’s willing to finish games or not finish games, because he has the kind of versatility on the defensive end of the floor, he makes, he makes the Cavs a better team for sure. And he just gives the Cavs a different option at that particular position or that general position than anybody else on the roster. He’s different than Dean Wade, he’s different than Isaac Kokoro, he’s different than Jalen Tyson, he’s different than Max Struse. And we talked about it from the very beginning of this podcast. The more ways that you can play, the better you’re going to be. The more lineups that you can use and be effective with, the better you’re going to be, the more styles that you can implement throughout the course of a seven game series, the better off you’re going to be. And I think DeAndre is the kind of guy who just fits really, really well and he’s. He blends into the fabric of a team. He doesn’t need, you know, a usage rate around 25. He doesn’t need 14 to 18 shots per game. He can find other ways to impact the game. And if, if the script calls for him being a little bit more aggressive, hunt his offense a little bit, take more shots, increase that usage, he’s capable of that too. So I do think he’s a big part of their championship equation.
Ethan Sands: All right, Chris, I think I’mma cut this one short and we’ll get into the last hey Chris, Question a different day, get nerdy with the second apron. So that’s, that’s more so that last. But I guess we’ve c we’ve covered so much today, whether it’s Darius Garland’s worth to this Cavs team, Darius Garland’s value and what he needs to work on most, especially with his timeline and having that off period to be in the gym and try and come back even better after his injury, after his surgery. And I think that’s one of the other things when we talk about mental toughness is how do you recover? Obviously fractured jaw, you had to come back after that, show some fortitude. Having to come back after surgery the year after shows a lot. And I think this one is going to be more important because of Darius Garland’s movements, how he plays on the offensive end, his stop start motions. All these things are going to be extremely important to Darius Garland and how he returns. Then we talked about DeAndre Hunter and all of these other things when it comes to physicality, mental toughness and the winning players that could help the Cavs, especially with the roster that they have currently constructed. So with all that being said, that’ll wrap up today’s episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. But remember to become a Cavs insider and interact with Chris, me and Jimmy by subscribing to Subtext. If you like our oh man. If you want to be included on the next hey Chris episode, go ahead and send in your questions, but you have to subscribe to Subtext to do so. This is where you can get your voice heard. This is where you can have daily conversations with me, Chris and Jimmy. This is where you get daily text, whether with insight, whether with analysis, whether with anything going on in the summer. Dedicated to the NBA, dedicated to the Cleveland Cavaliers. And you get that directly to your phones. But you can only get that if you sign up for a 14 day free trial or visit cleveland.comcavs and click on the blue bar at the top of the page. If you don’t like it that’s fine. All you have to do is text the word stop. It’s easy. But we can tell you that the people who signed up stick around because this is the best way to get insider coverage on the Cavs from me, Chris, and Jimmy. This isn’t just our podcast. It’s your podcast. And the only way to have your voice heard is through subtext. Y’ all be safe. We out.
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