CLEVELAND, Ohio — It’s time for this week’s Terry’s Talkin’ podcast, with cleveland.com columnist Terry Pluto and host David Campbell. This week, we look at why it’s time for the Guardians to call up top hitting prospect Chase DeLauter.
We also look at the NBA Finals and the Thunder, and an upcoming Terry column about why it’s a new era for the Cavs and the rest of the NBA. And do the Cavs need to sign Ty Jerome?
We also share another listener story about Tom Hamilton in advance of his Hall of Fame weekend in Cooperstown, N.Y., next month.
Highlights:
00:06 Guardians’ Trade Deadline Dilemma
11:11 Evaluating Young Talent and Prospects
17:17 The Championship Window and Jose Ramirez’s Impact
21:26 Analyzing Player Performance: Rocchio vs. Arias
25:33 Trade Insights: Evaluating Gimenez and Ortiz
29:37 The Guardians’ Missing Pieces: Naylor’s Impact
32:45 Upcoming Challenges: Guardians’ Schedule and Expectations
35:05 A New Era for the Cavs: Injuries and Salary Cap Dynamics
40:06 Ty Jerome’s Future: Should the Cavs Commit?
45:08 Reflections on the Thunder’s Championship and Coaching Dynamics
47:27 Behind the Scenes of NBA Analysis
49:59 Cavs vs. OKC: A Future Rivalry?
53:01 NBA Draft Insights: Cooper Flagg and Future Stars
55:28 NFL Contracts: The Deshaun Watson Effect
01:05:14 Tom Hamilton: A Cleveland Treasure
Here’s the podcast for this week:
If you have something you’d like to share about Tom Hamilton, or a question or a topic you’d like to see included on the podcast, email it to sports@cleveland.com, and put “Terry’s Talkin’” in the subject line.
You can find previous podcasts below, as well as a transcript.
As the transcript is computer-generated, it will contain many spelling and grammatical errors.
David Campbell (00:44.162)
Hey, what’s going on everybody? It’s this week’s edition of the Terry’s Talking Podcast with Terry Pluto. I am your host, David Campbell. We’re taping this late on Tuesday afternoon, the 24th of June. What’s going on Terry? How are you?
Terry Pluto (00:57.267)
I am all set. We’re in to go for the podcast.
David Campbell (01:00.634)
Let’s do it. So I guess we’ll start with the Guardians today since they’re kind of the hot topic in town and then I know we have some other stuff we want to get into with the Cavs and tie Jerome discussion and We’ve got another really good Tom Hamilton email for the end of the podcast. So we’ll get into that as well We got an email here that I I wanted to read to kind of frame The discussion here with the Guardian. So why don’t I get into that and then we’ll kind of go from there how’s that sound?
Terry Pluto (01:14.803)
Good.
Okay.
Terry Pluto (01:28.034)
That’s not your the host you’re the master host So that way if it goes bad, it’s all on you It’s kind of like being the sports editor of the department whether you messed up or not you messed up. It was messed up
David Campbell (01:29.658)
That’s okay. That’s right. Hey, it’s a...
podcast is a democracy not a dictatorship terry this is your podcast so all right this one
Terry Pluto (01:42.99)
Now, do you know what the best form of government is? A benevolent dictatorship.
David Campbell (01:47.875)
What’s that?
I was going to say a plutocracy because it would be a terrible. Alright, well here’s this email. It’s from Tom Byler and Thomas from Lewisburg, Kansas. He’s a native Buckeye, he says, and Tom writes in. says with the Guardians putting an exclamation point on not making the playoffs finishing finishing above 500, we now have who will they trade to look forward to with Bieber on a one year half a year in reality.
Terry Pluto (01:54.636)
Yeah, well it depends. That could go either way. Well, that... Yes.
Terry Pluto (02:03.662)
Mm-mm.
David Campbell (02:18.286)
deal. It would seem likely they will try to get him healthy enough to start a couple of games, then trade him for all they can get. Santana also on a one-year deal. Seems like a good bet to be traded. No one else. They cannot trade Jose or Kwan or Cade Smith, has any trade value, except for maybe Klaus A, if he can get on a hot streak before the deadline. This reminds me of the 70s, when we always dreaded the trade deadline because we knew the one or two talented players on the roster.
Terry Pluto (02:38.575)
Lord...
David Campbell (02:43.748)
were likely to be traded for a couple of suspects that would never quite reach their potential. Sigh, says Tom. So thanks for that, Tom. I know this ain’t the 70s, Terry. This is...
Terry Pluto (02:54.766)
No, I mean, right now in the 70s, at this point, being a couple games over 500 with the All-Star game, you throw a parade for the team. I mean, it was that bad back then for the most part. Yes.
David Campbell (03:04.484)
Yeah, definitely. So I wanted to read that email because we’re kind of a month away here, a little more than a month. The trade deadline is July 31st. And there was a really good debate I thought on cleveland.com the last couple of days. Hoynsey wrote a post saying, hey, the Guardian should stay the course and not really blow this thing up because last year, you know, they were way ahead and then they were tied in August and then they won the division. So a lot of things can change.
Terry Pluto (03:10.594)
Mm-hmm.
David Campbell (03:33.124)
Joe Noga also had a companion post and his thing was basically, they should pull the trigger and trade a prospect to bring somebody in to help them in the outfield and bring some hitting. So we’ve kind of been going back and forth on this, Terry. I just wanted to kind of make sure you were kind of of the opinion last week that they should kind of just ride it out here because things can change quickly and we’re starting to see the pitching come around. But I don’t know, there’s a lot swirling around here. How do you feel about all this?
Terry Pluto (04:03.918)
I’ll tell you one of difficult things about this season, and we’ve talked about different players struggling, is right before the trading deadline last year, they Jose Tenya and I think another prospect for Lane Thomas. With the idea being this be a two year, or at least a year and a half project for this guy, right handed hitter against left handed pitching to play a couple of outfield spots, steal bases, hit some home runs.
Immediately, he went 4 for 55 after he was traded at Cleveland. Then he got hot, which went all the way through the playoffs. Then he opened this season with that the guy that was 4 for 55 and he had plantar fascia in the foot. And since he’s got, he just hasn’t hit at all. And that was a kind of move that they hope they’ll move on the margins. In other words, trading a second rated prospect in Tanya and hoping that you would get something out of.
Thomas and they haven’t that hurt them. But when you talk about, by the way, who to trade, they got a whole bunch of guys that they could trade that people would love to get. You want, we could talk about this. mean, Louis Ortiz, Chikoni, these two young starters. I mean, teams would jump at them. You know, there’s been some talk about trading class A, which is just, think a really, really bad idea unless you’re getting something.
powerful because Clausay has such a team friendly contract and I know he’s been doing a Bob Wickman imitation or you know the I remember Earl Weaver had a reliever in Baltimore. I haven’t done a Weaver story for about a month so I’m allowed and he used to call this guy Don Stanhouse is his name he’s very much like Wickman he would come in and walk guys and
David Campbell (05:50.97)
You
Terry Pluto (06:00.846)
You know, let him steal bases and kind of get out of there. he used to call him six packs down house, but he didn’t mean it in terms of the, the beer. meant it that, during, during the ninth inning, Earl would smoke about six packs of cigarettes, watching him, the unfiltered rallies, as I remember. and so that was one of his many nicknames and hopefully, cause say I’ll get a little bit more dominant as he was, but that’s a.
David Campbell (06:17.306)
Ha
Terry Pluto (06:31.394)
I mean, even at his salary, Nat, if he isn’t even a closer, he’s still a really good buy when you look at what these guys make. So that’s where, that’s where they’re at.
David Campbell (06:37.964)
yeah, you don’t get deals like that with Class A very often, that you’ve got somebody who’s one of the best in the business at that rate of salary. that’s a premium position and you got a bargain basement price. So I think that would not make sense at all.
Terry Pluto (06:42.124)
No.
Terry Pluto (06:46.936)
Mm-hmm.
Terry Pluto (06:55.03)
And everybody will just put Kate Smith in there or Hunter Gaddis or well, I mean, we’ve seen it. You know, those guys have had a few hiccups too this year. They haven’t been as unhittable as the year before. And I just, I’d rather have more good arms out there than fewer.
David Campbell (07:12.922)
Okay, so time is on the guardian side here, right? So they are only, I think, a half a game out of the last wild card spot at 39 and 37, even though they’re eight and a half games behind the Tigers. So they have a few weeks here to let things kind of harden, for lack of a better word, and they can kind of see the direction things are going. Hoynsey was pointing out that the starting pitching is coming around, that there’s some more help on the way. And so are you kind of...
Terry Pluto (07:17.069)
Mm-hmm.
Terry Pluto (07:30.158)
sure.
Terry Pluto (07:37.475)
Mm-hmm.
David Campbell (07:42.586)
You’re the GM. Let’s say you’re Mike Chernoff and Chris Antonetti. Are you basically going to wait a few weeks and see how things look? if you had a deal, something like a Lane Thomas where you have some player control, would you make that move if you think it made sense?
Terry Pluto (07:57.582)
One move I’d probably make in the next week or so, assuming he stays healthy, is bringing up Chase DeLotter. I would make that move. Because maybe he solves one of your problems. right now we’ve had kind of been burned, but players coming from the minors that come up and not do much. Forget like in 2022, whether it was SpongeBob coming up or think Will Brennan, several other of those guys really helped during that season.
Right now at AAA, Dillard is hitting 297 with a 904 OPS. He’s got three homers. I love this 16 walks, 11 strikeouts, 75 at bats. And I’ve seen some tape of him making some nice catches in the outfield. You know, whenever this guy’s been healthy, he’s hit. And I don’t care if he’s a left-handed hitter or what, just, and right now, anybody that could hit maybe driving some runs.
you know, has to be of interest. yeah, yeah, sure.
David Campbell (08:57.7)
just to shake things up too, right? And change the dynamic a little bit in the outfield.
Terry Pluto (09:02.766)
And I know we could turn around and you look at Columbus, big Christmas. It’s Christmas time again. Don and Columbus. He’s three 13 OPS, nine 86, four homers, 12 RBIs. This is a guy that like three extra base hits and a hundred at bats or whatever it was. It was terrible. And he goes down there and just starts clubbing the ball. I’m a guy that’s really hurt them. And David, I will ask you this one.
That’s David Fry. You know, he’s five for 33 since he came up. Five for 33 with 16 strikeouts. Three walks. And I paid no attention to this. I just happened to look at it now because I was wondering what did he do in his minor league rehab stuff? He was three for 29.
Is there something wrong with? Has he come back too soon from that Tommy John surgery? I don’t know but this is a guy that made the All-Star team last year and
David Campbell (10:09.498)
Yeah, and he’s been talking about getting more comfortable, but like how long can you wait, right?
Terry Pluto (10:13.218)
I mean, you had the right. do you send him? I think he’s got an option left. Do you send him to AAA and just say play every day? He’s your DH every day down there. I don’t know. Just so he can get consistent at best because it doesn’t matter where he’s facing righties or lefties. He’s doing nothing right now. Now I’m not, I’m not quite there at that point yet, but I’m, getting there because
He can say whatever he wants. mean, you 16 strikeouts and 33 at bats. It’s just,
David Campbell (10:44.538)
So even the Deloitte thing, fans have kind of been clamoring that for that clamoring for that for like the last month. And I think, I think the move needs to be made. And I’ll tell you why a lot of teams are getting bumps from their young star talent right now. I just saw before we started taping here, the Reds are bringing up Chase Burns. They’re top and who I think was the number two pick in last year’s draft behind Travis Bazzana, right? Wasn’t he number two?
Terry Pluto (10:50.765)
Right.
Terry Pluto (11:00.728)
Mm-hmm.
Terry Pluto (11:06.222)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm. Yep. Mm-hmm.
David Campbell (11:12.602)
So he’s coming up tonight. think he’s making his big league debut for the Reds. The the Guardian just saw Nick Kurtz, right, with the A’s.
Terry Pluto (11:19.532)
Yep. How about Wake Forest? I believe Burns played at Wake Forest too. What a program they have for baseball. Yeah.
David Campbell (11:25.208)
Yeah, some college program. But like the Royals, you know, we talked about Caglia None coming up and kind of giving them a little bit of a different look. The Angels have brought up Christian Moore and the Astros have brought up Cam Smith. think the Guardians need just a little...Bazana’s not ready, right, because of the injuries and everything, but like...yeah.
Terry Pluto (11:39.63)
Mm-hmm.
Terry Pluto (11:45.026)
Well, I he’s got a lat injury and frankly, he’s got to, I want to see this guy really hit before you bring him up. The better odds there, but yeah. Sure.
David Campbell (11:52.002)
Right, so I think that the Lauder move is like bring him up and you can always send him back down, things, give him a three, four weeks and see how it goes. At least it’s something different.
Terry Pluto (11:59.8)
See how it goes. That’s right. I mean then he would be if he goes back down He’s among the 85 % You know people may get tired of me saying that among the 85 % of players who end up going back to the miners and Jose went back at least twice so that’s Yeah burns did play at Wake Forest and stood Coons So though those are those are guys there and so we’re not talking about bringing up a guy that’s just
Was in college last year and you know, the water, I mean, he would be here now if he just could stay healthy for a few months. I mean, I won baseball guy say, bring him up before he gets hurt again. And, know, he was kind of being semi sarcastic, but, um, there’s some of that, by the way, with pitchers, you know, you mentioned burns now, the guy looks pretty good and it seems like half of these guys or whatever, the last percentage I saw was 36 % of guys.
having Tommy John surgery, it’s going up every year. It’s like, well, let’s just get them up here and get some innings out of them before you got to go operate on them. It’s kind of, there’s another form of money ball. It really is.
David Campbell (13:12.708)
So a couple of things I just wanted to highlight from the stories we were talking about here, just for some perspective, Hoynsey was mentioning that after 76 games last year, the Guardians were 50 and 26 and had an eight game lead. And then on August 27th, they were tied with the Royals. So that’s how quickly things can change. And that was kind of what he’s getting at that, you know, maybe it’s a leap of faith was Hoynsey’s point. And then I wanted to mention in Joe Noga’s story, he mentioned three people that might bring a
Terry Pluto (13:15.426)
Okay.
Terry Pluto (13:22.157)
Yeah.
Terry Pluto (13:28.11)
Mm-hmm.
David Campbell (13:41.452)
a veteran righty power hitting outfielder. And a few names he mentioned were Marcel Ozuna from Atlanta, Eugenio Suarez from Arizona and Adolas Garcia from Texas. But Joe was writing about that you’re going to have to give up like a chase to lotter or somebody like that to get one of these guys. And that might be too steep of a price for them, but those are some interesting names.
Terry Pluto (13:58.84)
Yeah.
Terry Pluto (14:03.286)
Yeah. Yeah. I’m not, I’m not, I maybe because I saw him in a ball, like his first pro season and just fell in baseball, love with the water. And I just would hate to see you trade this guy and he goes and just actually does stay healthy and just starts raking. And maybe some of those veterans would help, but then you have this guy who’s hitting 20 to 30 homers and driving and runs and playing a good right field. Remember he was a closer.
James Madison when he wasn’t playing the outfield he throws 92 miles an hour I mean he’s that kind of athlete the one spring training was at two years ago. He like 480 or 420 I forgot what it was Anytime the fall league when he’s played there he’s he’s all everywhere even Chris Antonetti I was talking to him about a month ago and he said when he’s been healthy for a while. He just starts to hit Well that takes care of that and on top of that’s not a guy that he can only hit he can’t play any position
He’s your answer from turns athletically for right field. He runs fairly well. He’s got a great throwing arm and he’s got a good sense of how to play the game.
David Campbell (15:13.102)
And even if it doesn’t work out and he has to go back down, mean, we saw what Kyle Manzardo did last year after they brought him back up and he kind of learned how to DH, right? And the routine that’s involved there. So starting the major league kind of mentality or approach and letting him experience that, like, I don’t know, there’s not a lot of downside it seems like, but.
Terry Pluto (15:15.426)
Fine.
Terry Pluto (15:19.106)
Mm-hmm. Sure.
Terry Pluto (15:28.536)
Mm-hmm.
Terry Pluto (15:34.112)
No, there’s none. There really is none that I don’t see. Because now he’s playing five to six days a week. In the beginning, he started with three and four because he had that hernia surgery and they were trying to build up his endurance and that. he’s playing quite a bit.
David Campbell (15:49.614)
Well, I did want to say thanks to Tom for the email to get us going on that. But yeah, the wild card really changes the equation here in terms of, look what the Tigers last year just barely getting in, you know, it a wild card and having the run they did. Once you get in, anything can happen.
Terry Pluto (15:53.186)
Yep.
Mm-hmm.
Terry Pluto (16:06.316)
And you change, like the Tigers last year just said we have scoobble and 47 relievers. Here we go. And it worked. I mean, you just, you don’t know what will spark you. and one way is to try to light a spark with the guy who’s a viable prospect. The other guy who’s get, he’s playing down a good year and he’ll soon be a Columbus. And a guy that I’ve liked is Juan Brito. And he was sitting 291 when he broke his thumb. So he’s back at.
So you turn around, burrito at second, the water at right, maybe that lights the fire with the offense. You can’t even score four runs a game. You gotta do something.
David Campbell (16:48.43)
Well, yeah, now that the pitching is coming around, if you can get that runs per game up a little bit with some production, you might have something going. So, hey Terry, there was a line in Joe’s story that I wanted to mention. When people talk about the Cavs, they talk about the championship window and Donovan Mitchell being here, you know, another couple of years before a player option and all that stuff. Joe said the urgency is clear. Jose is having another MVP caliber season at age 32.
Terry Pluto (16:50.498)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Terry Pluto (17:14.734)
Mm-hmm.
David Campbell (17:15.544)
Wasting another prime year of his talent by failing to add offensive support seems short-sighted. So I find that interesting. lot of NBA people talk about championship windows and we can’t waste time when LeBron is here or when Donovan Mitchell’s here. got to, our team has to go for it. But you don’t hear that so much in baseball. Do you think, do you think the Guardians owe it to Jose to try to make something happen this summer?
Terry Pluto (17:39.662)
Okay, since Jose signed this contract in 2022, they won I think was 92 games and went to the playoffs in 2022, excuse me. In 23, they were below 500. Tito’s last year that odd year. Last year, I believe they won 91 games, went to the playoffs, both years in the playoffs they won a round. It’s not like he was stuck on the Indians of the 70s. I mean, let’s get real here.
he’s been, and I understand where Joe’s coming from. You want to capitalize on that, but it isn’t as if they just said, we’ll just throw Jose out there and he could just be kind of the show and we don’t care what else is around him.
David Campbell (18:24.056)
No, but when LeBron was here, nobody said, well, you know what, if they don’t make the finals this year, it’s no big deal. They’ll be back next year. Baseball seems like, mean, do the Guardians owe it to him to try and make something happen every year that they get into the playoffs? That’s kind of the question.
Terry Pluto (18:37.902)
I’m they owe it to the fans. They owe it to the fans to get to the playoffs and try to do something. The difference David is nothing is like basketball because unless Jose was going to be pitching, it would be like Jose pitches every game and also best cleanup. That’s what LeBron is. I’m serious. That’s what LeBron is. Well, Tony, even he can’t pitch every game. But when you have LeBron or you have SGA, you know, these great two way players, game changers, you know,
David Campbell (18:52.122)
It’s like Ohtani.
Terry Pluto (19:06.926)
dominating when they’re on the floor. That’s why basketball players, even in football, quarterback doesn’t play defense. Basketball is so unique because of that. It would be like having a great goalie, but oh, in between he’s like fifth in the league in scoring too. I don’t know how else to explain what a player like LeBron or these other guys are like because of how they impact the entire game.
And that’s why sometimes you say we have that, you know, he’s good enough to get us this far and he just needs a little help, but he’s going to carry, he’s going to carry a bigger load than Jose or anybody else. LeBron took three different teams to the NBA finals, 10 times in 14 years, unprecedented. We will never see that again. we may see somebody go to the finals 10 times in 14 years, although I kind of doubt it.
But not with three different teams that showed his unique greatness. So when they talked about wasting that it’s like he took the calves at seven. He took Miami four times. Then he comes back. He takes the calves four times and then he went to title with the Lakers. So actually it’s four different teams to the finals in 14 years, not three, the calves twice. If you count it that way, however you want to view it. And it’s just, it’s a remarkable thing. I mean, I.
The main thing that I see if the calves, excuse me, if the guardians kept going 72 and 90, I think Joe’s case would be stronger.
David Campbell (20:43.524)
Yeah, because there’s so many moving parts on a baseball team. It’s a different formula is what you’re saying. If I’m hearing you right.
Terry Pluto (20:46.155)
Yes.
Yeah, that right it is and it’s and the thing same thing there you acquire a guy He can only play one side of the ball as they were saying football He’s not gonna Play both it’s it’s it’s a hard way to figure out, you know, what is the best way? You know to build a winning team when in the last i’m trying to remember if you look at teams that Until last year
The Yankees had not been to the World Series since 2009. that money and all that. Granted, when you spend big, it kind of buys your way to the main table into the playoffs, but it doesn’t get you there. actually, I’m glad about that for baseball because if it were best of 13 in all these different series of playoffs, you probably would keep getting Yankees, Dodgers, Red Sox, all that.
David Campbell (21:21.434)
with all that money and all the talent.
Terry Pluto (21:46.2)
you know, best of five, best of seven. A lot of things can go wrong and for good teams and good.
David Campbell (21:55.002)
Alright, I had one more topic I wanted to throw at you before we move on from the Guardians. I don’t know if there’s anything else you want to get into with baseball, but yeah, go ahead. Well, you mentioned Brito a couple minutes ago, and I’ve been thinking a lot about the middle infield and how things are so much different. I looked up some stats, but I wanted to see, do you feel like the Guardians are better off with Arias at short than Roquio last year? The same or worse off?
Terry Pluto (22:00.93)
know. yeah, I do. What’s your topic?
David Campbell (22:24.25)
in terms of what they’re getting, not just offensively, but defensively.
Terry Pluto (22:25.838)
Ugh.
David Campbell (22:31.32)
And I did a little research, but I wanted to know what your gut feeling was.
Terry Pluto (22:31.35)
Rookie was... Go ahead. What does it say? That’s the problem when you can’t jump on anything.
David Campbell (22:37.434)
Oh yeah, I was just looking for your gut reaction, but yeah, can run through some of this. Sure. Um, so I looked up, yeah. So Rokeo, everybody remembers the playoff by Rokeo last year, right? But during the regular season, he batted 206, right? And, and yeah, 614 was his OPS, um, eight homers and 36 RBI’s RBI in 143 games. So not a great season. Arias in 2025, and this is in all games cause he, he hasn’t played short every game, obviously.
Terry Pluto (22:39.406)
Yeah, yeah, why don’t you do the numbers? Yeah.
What do you like? Two-third? Eww.
David Campbell (23:07.066)
um 230 and a 653 OPS with five homers and 27 ribbies in 71 games so basically half of what Rokeo played last year 71 versus 143 but he’s already got five home runs compared to eight 27 rbis compared to 36 so it seems like they’re getting a little bit better offensive production than they got from Rokeo last year um and again if you’re i was just trying to look for reasons that their record isn’t as good right and if the shortstop
Terry Pluto (23:22.254)
Mm-hmm.
David Campbell (23:36.538)
play either offensively or defensively was down, then that might help guide them in terms of what might be ahead.
Terry Pluto (23:42.254)
And of course the problem was Rokio this year couldn’t catch a ground ball. I mean his defense was horrible this year. Last year was good. It was a B plus. B plus. Go ahead.
David Campbell (23:48.954)
Yeah, Yeah, so I got some of that too. So, Rokio’s fielding percentage last year was 974. And his fielding percentage this year in 35 games was like 945, I think I wrote over that. But anyway, a 30 % drop. And then there’s also a stat where they measure your defensive runs saved per 1200 innings. Yeah, and last year.
Terry Pluto (23:57.847)
Mm-hmm.
Terry Pluto (24:13.154)
Run side, yep. Yeah.
David Campbell (24:15.898)
Rokio had 12 and this year he was minus 21. That basically measures your put outs and throw outs per unit time, per 1200 innings.
Terry Pluto (24:27.16)
I’ll tell you the, the death thing. I don’t get so much into the real, minutia of how they measured it, but I have found in general, the fielding Bible, which does allow the run saves versus that kind of matches the eye test. As I said, Rokio, I thought was horrible defensively this year. I didn’t know the stats, but he was, and I, and I thought he was a bike, a B plus a minus that shortstop last year. think he had 12 errors all year and.
David Campbell (24:46.916)
Yeah, well, you were right on that.
Terry Pluto (24:55.138)
I mean, part of playing sure stop is making the average place. That was when Omar was here. What made him so great, David, isn’t just that, the spectacular things. I mean, one year, I think he played 140 some games at three errors. You know, if he had 10 errors in a year, I mean, he, would tell you how terrible that was. so that is, that is a key there.
I just have trouble buying into ARIUS too. I don’t know if that’s you know, where that’s gonna go. I don’t, I don’t, I don’t like-
David Campbell (25:26.266)
Yeah, but I think a lot of fans might be thinking the defense isn’t there and you know that their putouts and assists per nine innings played it was 3.68 for Rokio and 3.63. So it seems like it’s kind of a wash with maybe a little bit more offense coming from Arias, but I don’t know. I’m looking for variables and reasons for Guardians fans to be hopeful or worried so.
Terry Pluto (25:34.67)
Yeah.
Terry Pluto (25:40.162)
Mm-hmm.
Terry Pluto (25:44.812)
Well, center field defensively has been horrible this year on those things. Second base is certainly a big drop because Jimenez is the premier defensive second baseman. And first base is better with Carlos. I did look at that than I were with Naylor. know, Jose solid at third. The outfield, kind of, well, Kwan’s
Kwan’s extraordinary. But their team defense just kind of ranked right around average this year, or last year, was like in the top three or top five, depending on which of those things you looked at.
But I did want to, I wanted to write up there the him and his traits since the Toronto’s in town. Now.
David Campbell (26:32.088)
Yeah, so you emailed me about a sleeper from one of the trays that you wanted to talk about. Let’s get into that.
Terry Pluto (26:37.006)
Yeah. So, I mean, I, I understood from an economic reason why they traded, um, Jimenez last year, 104 million for five years. Um, I did dig deeper and had some of the stats of how even last year, whatever he had 240 or whatever it was that it was considered a really soft 240 because they looked at, you know, all those secondary stats and that, which sometimes is
relevant and sometimes it isn’t, but they just did not have much confidence in him, you know, coming around and being able to hit as he did a couple of years ago when he hit, uh, you know, when he hit two 97 and, uh, did some really good things that led to them giving him, you know, the big contract. I mean, you last year he had two 52 with OPS a six 38 and,
Now this year, I mean, this is something else, David. He’s batting 192 for the Blue Jays. 574 OPS. It’s just, you know, he’s got nine steals. He has stolen 30 bases the two previous years. You know, 32, I mean, he’s got, he had four home runs, but he had three in the first 10 games of the year. Only six doubles. I don’t know what happened to him. I mean, he’s hopeless. Now he’s still really good defensively, but if he were doing that,
here and you’re going, my goodness, and you got this guy basically at 20 million a year for the next five years, I mean, that would have been really damaging. Meanwhile, Ortiz was part of that, was a three-way trade with Pittsburgh. Ortiz was part of that. He’s foreign eight with a 430 ER8 over the last, I think seven starts, it’s like two and four, we’re at a 376. I don’t know, what do you think of Ortiz?
David Campbell (28:30.522)
I think he’s gotten better and better since spring training and yeah, I think they’re getting what they were hoping they would get, right?
Terry Pluto (28:32.6)
Yeah.
Terry Pluto (28:38.062)
Yeah, yeah, we’re getting better. Nick Sandlin was in that deal too. He’s only pitched nine and two, there’s innings a lot, two runs. He had the dreaded lat injury. He’s just coming back from it now. Now there are two other guys in the trade. Uh, pitchers, young pitchers in class A. One was Michael Kennedy. Um, he’s had a 333 or eight. Um, he’s only pitched 16 innings at Lake County. Has some, a bit of a knee problem.
But here’s a guy that could be the big sleeper in the deal. And I remember when they got him, they told me that they really liked him. By the way, another Wake Forest guy, Josh Hardell, left-handed pitcher. He’s at Wake County right now, five and one, 2.73 ERA. And I bet they’ll probably move him up to double A. He was a high draft pick by the, because none of the pirates were involved in this. And so.
you certainly right now would trade him and as for Ortiz and Hardell. Let me do it over and over again. Yeah, you wouldn’t even think about it. So that’s a trade, you know, that it looks very good. And then the guy that surprised me, because I looked at Ortiz’s stats in a little bit of the video before they got him, I thought he’s an interesting prospect and there’s something there. But the guy that really didn’t show much.
David Campbell (29:44.721)
yes.
Terry Pluto (30:05.474)
When he came to majors was Chikoni and you know, look at how he’s doing now. You know, came in that trade from, for Arizona. So that’s very positive because two young starters under team control basically forever. and it would be nice to have Josh Naylor, but really not having Naylor, I think it’s hurt the team son, but not a ton. It’s just, they’re not getting stuff as you mentioned from not only, you know, Arias has really called off, Anzardo’s called off.
They wanted to create opportunities for these guys to really come in and take control in the lineup. And they’ve not done it.
David Campbell (30:43.244)
think in some ways they’ve missed Naylor’s clubhouse and dugout presence more than a lot of the other stuff that he did on the field. he gets guys fired up. He’s always up on the railing of the dugout, yelling at guys and smiling when they have a big hit. And it just seems like the Guardians are missing a little bit of that juice that he brought last year. And I don’t know where it comes from, but yeah. Yeah.
Terry Pluto (30:47.416)
Could be.
Terry Pluto (30:54.222)
Mm.
Terry Pluto (31:04.078)
That’s probably true. Yeah, probably true. mean, but basically he had 31 homers over in 108 RBI. So he was bad after the All-Star break, but he was great in the first half. Like he’s great in the first half now again. But in terms of, I’m not saying it was a straight equal Santana with Neylor, but it’s not as if they went from a grade A player at first to a C-. They didn’t at all.
I mean, Santana is above average player and he’s good defensively. Nailor was not. but the rest of these guys that they were counting on, whether it was big Christmas or Lane Thomas or Rokey, I’ll remember he started there. Second base has been just a, know, Sneeman’s taken it over to an extent, but he’s a platoon player or, you know, a part-time player.
I don’t know, Centerfield, Martinez, thought he would be doing better than he has. when you say, right, David, I’ll ask you this, of the young guys that came up, say in the last year and a half, who are producing in the lineup?
David Campbell (32:14.532)
Man, not many. Like, who would you say? It’s hard to think. Yeah.
Terry Pluto (32:18.286)
That’s the problem. You would start to say Manzardo at the end, he had the end of last year and then the first six weeks of this year. And then he’s really tailed off. And I mean, you could say Arias, but, um, they were hoping this guy would hit for some more power and just, be more of a impact player than he has been offensively. I mean, defensively he’s got a great arm. He’s pretty good over there short. Um, but you go, you just go around and,
There’s nobody in center field. It’s that’s that gets back to do they trade for an arm rig? But see, I’d rather play the DeLotter card soon. See how that goes before you turn around and, and trade a couple of prospects you like for, for somebody else.
David Campbell (33:06.81)
Yeah. Yeah. Alright. Well, the Guardians are back home after their long West Coast swing. They’ve got three games Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday here against Andres Jimenez and the Toronto Blue Jays and then they have a home home home series against Saint Louis Cardinals Friday, Saturday, and Sunday and then next week they head to Wrigley Field to take on the Chicago Cubs for Fourth of July week.
Terry Pluto (33:26.894)
Alright, I just decided to look something up here. Cause they traded Jose Tanya for Lane Thomas. I just wondered how he was doing and the answer is, eh. He’s playing quite a bit for Washington, but 44 games, 248, 690 OPS. He’s probably average or short, so.
He wouldn’t have solved the shortstop problems either.
David Campbell (33:53.21)
Well, we will know a lot more about this team, I think, in two, three weeks in terms of the vibe, where they’re headed, and what they might be doing. All right, anything else on the Guardians, All right, hey, let’s take a break right here. When we come back, I know you have been working on a column about why it’s a new era for the Cavs after the NBA Finals. And we’ll get into that and more when we return. Terry’s talking.
David Campbell (37:13.166)
We are back on Terry’s Talking. Terry, I don’t know where June went, man. We’ve been talking for weeks. You have an appearance on Wednesday, June 25th at the Avon Lake Public Library. And like that’s tomorrow already and the month is gone. But I know you always draw some big crowds, but I think it’s at 630 tomorrow night at the Avon Lake Public Library, right?
Terry Pluto (37:16.994)
Mm-hmm.
Terry Pluto (37:25.431)
Yes it is.
Terry Pluto (37:30.614)
Yeah, I’m really looking forward to it. haven’t had one for a while. And, I know when I was at Avon, like several years ago, the crowd was big and most of them are, I mean, let’s face it, it’s free. So if your life is boring, you can come over out there and if you don’t like it, you know, the old double your money back. Yeah. Thing is in place and I take questions and talk to people and generally it’s a really good time. I mean, it’s interesting. I’ll say how many of you heard me speak before and like two thirds of the hands go up, which
Makes me feel good. And also because...
So many, sometimes I have kind of a message I begin with about different things. Then we really open it up to questions and that, and I could do this talk tomorrow and do one six weeks from now. And you know, more than half of it will be a lot different just because of what happens in the news. mean, sports, certainly even in the quote boring seasons, never changes. There’s always stuff coming on. Never changing mean that it always changes.
David Campbell (38:32.652)
always drama in sports. It’s part of what makes it great. So, and again, the address there is 326-49 Electric Boulevard and Terry, I know you sign books and if you want to bring your books and get them signed, you’re always glad to do that. So, it should be fun tomorrow again, the 25th, Wednesday the 25th at 630 at the Avon Lake Public Library. All let’s talk some basketball here, Terry. So, the Thunder won game seven and a really sad night for the league when
Terry Pluto (38:34.285)
Mm-hmm.
Terry Pluto (38:43.587)
Yep.
Terry Pluto (38:53.025)
No.
David Campbell (39:01.54)
Tyrese Halliburton went down with that Achilles injury, which you hate to see. And I know you have some experience with Achilles injuries, but I know you’ve been working on a column and we kind of tease this before the break about why this is a new era for the calves and for the NBA. Why don’t you talk about that for a minute? We’ll get into the thunder and kind of what’s ahead for the calves here.
Terry Pluto (39:07.736)
Yeah.
Terry Pluto (39:21.102)
Well, the gamblers, the guys in the know, I always love I think I forgot what who is on one of the stations. One of the Brent Murfberger says my guys in the desert. I always like that. There’s guys in the desert and they know what’s going to happen as opposed to my guys in Parma or somewhere. But anyway, the guys in the desert have made the calves the
David Campbell (39:36.095)
You’re looking live at my guys in the desert.
Terry Pluto (39:50.67)
favorite to come out of the Eastern Conference and go to the finals. And part of it is we’re in a new era in two ways of least in the Eastern Conference. It is the era of the Achilles injury and the era of the second apron. And it is pretty remarkable in the playoffs. The big name stars that blew their Achilles. know, Halliburton was the last one.
Now he was playing on a bad calf muscle for a couple of those games. then of course, Jason Tatum blew his Achilles when he was playing the Knicks and the playoffs. then, Damien Lillard blew his Achilles when he was playing the Pacers. And when you’re talking about Achilles injuries, you’re looking at eight to 12 months of rehab.
Kevin Durant took 18 months. Some other guys have taken 12. And it’s an entry most guys do come back from, but it’s a nasty one. can tell you that having had the surgery. so the guys in the desert looked at this and said, let’s see, Indiana, they want to Halliburton. If he does come back, it’ll be like right around this time of year. And how good will he be?
And the Celtics, they don’t have Tatum and the same thing applies and Milwaukee is sort of irrelevant, especially if they happen to trade Yanis.
But then you have the second apron thing coming in, which is this part of the salary cap that if you’ve spent X amount of money, but the problem with being in a second apron isn’t just that it costs you zillions of dollars to sign a free agent. What it does is it limits the moves you can make. It’s really restricts what type of free agent you can sign. It’s almost like you’re almost stuck designing guys on minimum contracts. If you go to make a trade,
Terry Pluto (41:50.634)
It’s like it has to be a one for one trade. In other words, say you’re trading Darius Garland is going to make, I forgot, it’s like 30 million next year. You couldn’t take two guys back to make 30 million. You’d have to find for your cap, why another guy making 30 million. mean, rarely do you see that. And you look at what Boston just did. One of my favorite players, boy, what I love to have seen him least a couple of years ago, Drew Holliday, they just traded him to Portland.
because they want to get out of the apron thing and holiday, holiday is going to be 36 and he had three years and a hundred million dollars left in his contract. They traded him for Anna Free Simmons who’s on the last year of his contract. He’s a guy that could score a lot and doesn’t guard anybody. But mostly he was to get out from under the apron. They’re still like over there and they might trade Przingus. So you’re going to see, especially coming up before July 1st, that’s when this whole apron thing kicks in, some other big names being traded.
And now the calves are like pulling at the apron strings. I think right now they’re a little bit over it, but they could get under it. so we’ll see what they do, but that’s the, that’s the landscape, three Achilles eight, injuries to two guys with teams that, were considered, would be considered that they were, they were both healthy favors to win the East. And so that, so the guys in the desert have decided that either.
Cleveland or New York comes out of it mostly because they didn’t have guys having an Achilles surgery. Now calves have garland and they still have not, I’ve not been able to get a real good one. And what kind of surgery was this? You’re talking four to five months or more in the big toe, but I guess it’s not an Achilles. So they figure that’s better than the alternatives.
David Campbell (43:41.698)
Alright, so I guess the big thing hanging out there in terms of the salary cap situation Terry is the tie Jerome deal and Jimmy Watkins our colleague had a nice breakdown and his point was like the Cavs should not mess around with tie Jerome just get it done because It’s not worth letting him go because like you were talking about they can’t really replace him with a comparable player So do you think the Cavs should just do pay him? Whatever even if it’s 14 whatever million dollars to
Terry Pluto (43:48.204)
right
Terry Pluto (44:00.802)
Right.
David Campbell (44:09.402)
You know, and then there’s the escalator for the second apron where you have to pay a bunch of tax on that, right?
Terry Pluto (44:12.75)
Yeah, that’s, think what it’d be, it becomes like an $80 million contract for 46 million or whatever it would be. think, yeah. Yeah. I need to sit there and go for Ty Jerome. couldn’t get the ball up the court against the Pacers. mean, you really, it’s, it, to me, it’s a tough call. Uh, when you start talking about that kind of money, the four years, what was it, the match you give them is four years of 14 million a year, something like that. And.
David Campbell (44:18.604)
Yes, yep, it’s like a premium that they toss on there. Yep.
Terry Pluto (44:41.676)
I’m like, I don’t know, just because I’d rather have an alternative to see if I, if that would keep me out of the apron where I can make other moves. When Mike, what I had over the weekend is some, talked to some top, top calves people and, and the discussion actually came along to Craig Porter Jr. And I said, you guys blew it. You should have played him more, especially in the Indiana series. He could help you.
And a couple of the cast type people agreed with me because we wouldn’t have won the series, but we should have. And I said, well, what’s, what’s the problem? And they told me, said, Craig Porter Jr. He’s a really nice kid. You know, he shows up on time, all that, but they want him, if you want to be a point guard, they want some fire from him. You know, first in the gym, that kind of guy will ask to leave. Play with a sense of desperation.
because that’s what it takes. And you know, I’m not saying he’d be as good as TJ McConnell, but you see him McConnell comes in impacts the game. And I’ll tell you Porter has the same ball handling skills as McConnell when he’s at his best. Now McConnell’s got more ways to score, but McConnell can’t make threes very well either. Everybody’s all hung up on the three point game thing. Well, I’ll tell you one thing, McConnell is certainly no great three point shot, but boy, he gets that offense going. Porter could do this.
If they could get him lined up mentally the right way and remember I’m saying there’s nothing wrong with him. This is not a kid with problems, but maybe he just doesn’t know how good he could be. And I would be sitting there and I bet Kenny Atkinson will start showing him a Connell and maybe a couple other guys you like say, this is who you need to be. And to get there, you’ve got to do more than you’re doing. And if you get there.
You got a chance to make some real money because I believe McConnell’s last contract was really rich. It’s like, I don’t know, 18 million or a year or something like that. have to look it up. And, you know, he never saw that coming. So that’s, that’s an easy way internally. The other guy, and I do think Jason Tyson as a wing player has some ability. His ball handling is pretty decent. In fact, they used to run him as a point forward in college when he’s a cow. so.
Terry Pluto (47:02.85)
Kenny’s going to have to look at different ways to do this, whether it’d be nice to have Jerome, but I’m just not going to go crazy about Ty Jerome. I would disagree with Jimmy on that.
David Campbell (47:13.924)
So you’d be fine if he stays and you’re fine if he goes. Yeah. Yeah.
Terry Pluto (47:17.11)
Yeah, it depends on the deal. You know, I’m into the price thing. You know, two years at X amount as opposed to, you know, that kind of thing.
David Campbell (47:21.698)
I, I, yeah.
David Campbell (47:27.618)
You mentioned McConnell. I didn’t realize this. Mark Bona from our newsroom. He’s the son of Suzy McConnell’s serial who used to play for the Cleveland Rockers, which I did not realize. Yeah.
Terry Pluto (47:31.064)
Yeah.
Terry Pluto (47:36.95)
Yeah. Yeah. And that’s like, and you know what? didn’t, that’s how she played. I remember that she played the same way, like a maniac. And I in a good way. mean that up and down the court and yep. And you could just see that, you know, TJ is just, that way. And you all have times, times you look at those guys and you think they don’t have that much, that much of athletic ability. No, they do.
David Campbell (47:45.102)
Yep, flying up and down the court. Yep.
Terry Pluto (48:06.444)
But they then turn around and they take it to another higher level. McConnell signed, because he had always bounced from team to team, and now he signed a four-year $45 million contract. How about that, Craig Porter? There’s the money. It’s out there for you. And of course, when he comes off the bench, people in Indiana go crazy.
See, that’s the other one, you bring that energy to it. And that’s that right. And for good reason. And that’s the kind of thing that maybe, maybe Porter can at least get approached that this is, this is a key part for Kenny Actons. And he was brought in here as a guy to develop players. That’s his reputation. That’s what he part of it was get the big four to play together in that. And also develop the younger players because the calves knew as the
David Campbell (48:38.276)
I love him.
Terry Pluto (49:02.764)
They were dealing with their salary cap concerns, the apron coming, they weren’t going to make a ton of big moves anymore.
David Campbell (49:08.836)
Yeah, mean, the improvement has to come from within because it can’t come from without. So this is what they knew it was going to be. And even if they had made the finals this year, this is what they knew it was going to be, right? So.
Terry Pluto (49:11.672)
Mm-hmm.
Terry Pluto (49:18.24)
Yeah, absolutely. But it’s just the second round, you the, do you just say, well, you know, we ended up the same place a year before lost in five games in the second round, you know, blow it up, whatever that means. I mean, a lot of people want to trade Garland and, know, I’m, I’m open to the right kind of deal, but I don’t see that happening. You know, Orlando made their trade, so that’s not going to happen there. And,
I am very reluctant to trade Jared Allen because of his contract situation, which is very modest by NBA standards. The NBA, by the way, average salary of the NBA now is almost 12 million a year. What a country.
David Campbell (50:00.794)
Yeah, well, and he is a bargain. And like we talked about, very selfless and we’ll do whatever helps the team win. So I wanted to ask you something about real quick about the Thunder Terry. So I thought it was a nice Cleveland tie-in, but it was the first championship for Oklahoma City in the NBA, but the second for the franchise, right? And the first one was when they were the Seattle Supersonics in 1979, coached by Lenny Wilkins, which was a neat tie-in. So, but I did.
Terry Pluto (50:02.806)
Yeah, by that standard,
Terry Pluto (50:16.408)
Mm-hmm.
Terry Pluto (50:25.826)
Yep. Yeah. Dennis, Dennis Johnson was a guard. They have Lonnie Shelton, Jack sick. Yeah, they had a really nice team. And I think I can’t remember the year before a year after they went to the finals and lost to Washington. So, but it was back to back appearances. interesting thing back then, Bob Ryan and I, a few years later did a book called 48 minutes a night and the life of the NBA.
David Campbell (50:32.228)
Jack Sigma,
Terry Pluto (50:52.91)
KC Jones was coaching the Celtics and Lenny was coaching the Cavs. It was Lenny’s first year when he came here and he had like Ron Harper, Brad Doherty, Hot Rob Williams, they were all rookies and Mark Price. And the Celtics were, I can’t remember if they were defending champs for that year or had won it two years prior. But one of the subtext of the book was that a lot of people thought there were quote, no coaching being done in the NBA.
Well, I’m around Lenny and Lenny was fine with the guys, but Lenny was not Mr. Motivator or whatever. Lenny was a finance major from Providence. Lenny was Mr. X’s and O’s. I mean, this is like,
David Campbell (51:39.674)
Unbelievable.
Terry Pluto (51:50.114)
You know, Mike Fratello, this is only in a quieter thing. It’s, it’s, but so we were going against that and it led to, where Lenny spent seven hours breaking down this game between the Cavs and Boston in Joe Tate’s living room, Joe Tate and I and Lenny over two days for that, for my part. And Casey, Jones didn’t kind of, kind of care one way the other about it, but Jimmy Rogers was the assistant and he and Ryan.
Bob Ryan did the same thing and we put the book together, which actually sold pretty well for back then. There was a baseball book called Nine Innings by Daniel Oreckrent. I basically, I stole that idea. I pitched it to Bob. My editor, Jeff Newman out of Simon & Schuster loved it. So it was a fun book to do, but I think of winning and then I’m watching. So now I am getting, like I mentioned, a graduate course from Earl Weaver in baseball in 1979.
I’m getting graduate NBA training from Lenny Wilkins and Joe Tate’s living room in my first year on the NBA beat. And just spoiled by that and see it through their eyes. And it’s phenomenal to see that. And I do think sometimes what has changed over the NBA is now when you get in these tight games at the end, they throw strategy out and they just isolate.
their best player at the top of the key and they don’t try to do anything. Just let them create, let them create. Well, I still don’t understand why the way defense is, okay, know, they’re gonna give it to the best player, let them create. Well, send two guys at them, make somebody else beat you. It’s still amazing how they didn’t do that. I I had had everybody swarming over SGA. Now, OKC made it pretty hard at Halliburton, they really did. They said, you know, these other guards, you
Wanna knee Smith or any of these other guys wanna beat me fine
David Campbell (53:51.268)
Well, and the Pacers made it hard on Thoneman Mitchell. They were sending guys at him and falling hard and making him go to the lane. Yep.
Terry Pluto (53:54.606)
Yes, they did. went at them. Right. Exactly. And now I think Kenny will probably look back at a lot of those tapes and wishes they, they still had done more. I know they didn’t have Garland, but I he was in a tough spot because that’s where I have to admit, I saw her at someone on, on, on, Ty Jerome. It’s like, man, uh, you were no help in that series. None. You had a couple of shots at the end of game five, but
He had three, I didn’t know this, but a person told me there he had three eight, eight second calls. In other words, it couldn’t get the ball up to four and eight seconds in the playoffs. That is like, just hand the ball to the other team.
David Campbell (54:34.83)
Yeah, no possession. so before we move on from basketball, Terry, I, if I’m a Cavs fan, I, I’m a little worried about OKC because they have the fourth youngest roster in the NBA. I think their average age is like 24.7. And if you look back at the Warriors in 2015, they won their first NBA championship and they were just an average, they were about an average age of just over 26. So.
Terry Pluto (54:45.443)
Sure.
Yeah
Terry Pluto (54:52.759)
Yes.
Terry Pluto (55:03.95)
Mm-hmm.
David Campbell (55:04.45)
OKC is like 1.3 years younger than that team was and we all know what the Warriors did, but this could be yeah.
Terry Pluto (55:12.014)
They also Oklahoma city, David also has like 27 draft picks. mean, I forgot how many first round picks. It’s incredible. 14 or something like that coming up. Now, why is that important? Now hold on a second. Yes, the whole week should be worried about it. Here’s why. Because you could turn around and throw a bunch of those number one picks together and go get yourself a veteran. It isn’t just to give you drafting young. Like this year, the calves are starting to pay the.
David Campbell (55:21.882)
So do you think Cavs fans should be worried about this? Yeah.
Terry Pluto (55:41.774)
The Donovan Mitchell tariff, you know, the picks with Utah. Doesn’t bother me in the least, by the way. I used to always get, the reason I mentioned tariff is because I called that starting back in 2022, the Watson tariff, which bothered me terribly because I knew Watson was, it was just a bad idea. I didn’t know it was going to be that bad. So Oklahoma City has, right, they’re young and they have all those, those draft picks and they got a really smart GM and they’re going to be very, very tough.
Tough to beat, that, you know, that said, just don’t know. You know, in the NBA, all of sudden we just talked about the Achilles entries. I wonder if the Achilles is going to become the Tommy John of the NBA.
David Campbell (56:23.332)
Well, I think the reason it’s important is because a lot of times you see smaller market teams come up and they have one great memorable season and then it just kind of all goes away. These guys are going to be around like, and you’re right, Terry injuries happen in a series or guys get banged up or whatever happens and things change quickly. one, one week you have Halliburton one week you don’t. yes, that, but in terms of just the youth and now they’ve won a championship and they know what’s involved,
Terry Pluto (56:28.984)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Terry Pluto (56:32.993)
Mm-hmm.
Right.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Terry Pluto (56:48.706)
Yeah.
David Campbell (56:49.87)
these guys could be a problem for the calves for a number of years here. So we’ll see.
Terry Pluto (56:55.239)
Yeah, I’m just looking at their draft picks. It’s like
This site, got seven in the first four next four years. It’s pick swaps, all kinds of stuff, which are great assets to have to, trade. We’re seeing that’s a problem with the cows. in the draft of tomorrow. got what number 49 and 58. And I think they can’t trade a first round pick to 2030 because remember you can’t trade them two years in a row. have the test, that’s role, which is a good role by the way. And, uh,
So that you’re correct on Oklahoma City being loaded.
David Campbell (57:34.33)
So speaking of the draft here, just wanted to touch on it real quick. Talk about, they always talk about people falling into success and the Mavericks after the stupid trade ended up with the number one pick and they’re going to take Cooper flag. The draft is Wednesday night and Thursday night, as you mentioned, first round on Wednesday night. You think Cooper flag is going be good real quick before we move on? You don’t.
Terry Pluto (57:41.794)
Mm-hmm.
Terry Pluto (57:45.197)
Yeah.
Terry Pluto (57:52.27)
No, not, not immediately. No, no. mean, good, but not great. just because he’s so young, played one year. It’s a tough league. I don’t think he’s going into a good situation. because I know they have Davis, I guess, Kyrie is coming back from whatever his latest injury is, but, you know, I’m not, not a fan as they say of him. he’s.
mean, now, Flag’s got a lot of ability, but I think it’ll be years twos and threes where you really see who he is in the league.
David Campbell (58:29.346)
I agree. think he’ll be in, I think he’s going to be an all-star by year two or year three. And the reason is, you know, when you hear LeBron and other really respected NBA players talk about how good somebody is, like you, your ears perk up a little bit. And I, that’s what I’ve been hearing about Cooper flag for two years is just how blown away people are when they have summertime runs with him. And yeah.
Terry Pluto (58:33.454)
Correct.
Terry Pluto (58:44.152)
Sure. Yeah.
Terry Pluto (58:49.408)
And you know, as good as LeBron was, couldn’t get to cast at a playoff the first year. I mean, I watched that.
David Campbell (58:55.14)
Yeah, so anyway, I think you’re right though given a year or two, think he’s gonna be an all-star probably by year two or three.
Terry Pluto (58:58.696)
And also LeBron, now Flag is athletic in that, but LeBron was, you know, a genetic marvel for that age in terms of what he could do. And you turn around and he was already driven, but so that’s a great combination. yeah, as you said, was rewarded for idiocy.
David Campbell (59:21.09)
All right, I guess that’s it for basketball. Let’s move on to the Browns real quick. There’s kind of this interesting story around today, Terry, and it involves the NFL Players Association and the NFL, and Pablo Torre, investigative reporter, found a lot of this stuff out. But basically, long story short, and it’s got some Cleveland threads to it, interestingly enough. After the Deshaun Watson trade happened and the Browns gave him the fully guaranteed $230 million contract,
Terry Pluto (59:24.853)
Okay.
David Campbell (59:49.22)
there was an NFL owners meeting soon after that. And there was a lot of speculation and going around that the owners basically said, hey, don’t do that anymore. We don’t want these large guaranteed contracts. So pull back on that. And of course the players association would be like, well, that’s collusion. You have to allow free market, you know, bidding to happen. If a team wants to give a fully guaranteed deal, give a fully guaranteed deal. But there’s some news today, I don’t know.
Terry Pluto (01:00:00.279)
Yep.
David Campbell (01:00:18.36)
If you want to kind of explain it real quick or we can get into some of this, can a couple of minutes talking about it.
Terry Pluto (01:00:22.156)
Well, it kind of looks at how you view this. The view of the owners would be, yeah, we talked about not giving out stupid contracts, guaranteed contracts or whatever, but we didn’t legislate against it. The players would say, yes, you didn’t legislate against it, but you made a tremendous amount of internal pressure not to give, I mean, you didn’t give a full guaranteed contract to Mark Jackson, to a lot of these other guys, to Joe Burrill, Joe Burrill.
David Campbell (01:00:48.494)
Russell Wilson.
Terry Pluto (01:00:51.404)
You know, there’s one you would think. Now, some guys have gotten more guaranteed money than Watson. Dak Prescott, I believe, did, but the contracts are not fully guaranteed. Now, the owners would come back and say, look, whether it’s fully guaranteed or not, Dak Prescott got more guaranteed money, whether it’s contract rather with 300 million or whatever, he still ended up with more guaranteed money than Watson. And I remember after...
Watson got the five years 230 million guarantee by the way, you know, I was 230 instead of 225 for five because 225 for five, know, you go well that you know, that’s kind of a rounder number 230 is because it was 46 million a year and at that point the average salary for Patrick Mahomes was how much David? What would you guess? You got it Bragging rights for the agent always watch those weird numbers. I forgot
David Campbell (01:01:39.834)
45, right?
Terry Pluto (01:01:47.98)
whether I forgot how much Frankie when Doris contract was, don’t know, 361 million or whatever it was. It was 1 million more than, than, T Scott from San Diego at that point. You know, when you see an odd number like that, you could always look and, and I learned to, to see what’s behind it. I think it’s, it’s interesting, but I don’t think it goes anywhere, David. I just don’t see how there’s any kind of.
David Campbell (01:02:13.624)
No, it doesn’t. think the people who have been writing about this, part of the deal was that the arbitrator, was a lawsuit and some hearings and the owners are like, listen, we didn’t collude to make this not happen. And the players like, yes, you did. so the arbitrator basically said, yeah, you shouldn’t have been doing what you’re doing, but there was no collusion here. So the NFL got off and didn’t have to pay a bunch of damages. I think part of
Terry Pluto (01:02:21.752)
Yeah.
Terry Pluto (01:02:29.271)
Hmm.
Terry Pluto (01:02:35.608)
Yeah.
David Campbell (01:02:39.706)
part of the problem and I think a lot of the issue is that the Players Association has kept this quiet and didn’t make a big deal out of it, whereas they could have let other players know that they thought this might be happening and there could have been some other people jumping in with some lawsuits or complaints or some things they might have noticed. But one of the things was that J.C. Treder, the former Brown Center, who was the president of the Players Association, was in the testimony for this lawsuit that the arbitrator was ruling on.
Terry Pluto (01:02:46.702)
Sure.
David Campbell (01:03:08.666)
calling Russell Wilson like a wuss for not demanding guaranteed money after Deshaun Watson got his money and the players union didn’t want that to come out that the head of the players association was ripping one of the players for not getting guaranteed money. That would have been a very awkward thing for JC Tredder and the players association. And so it kind of, that’s where kind of the drama is coming from a lot of this, right? That they didn’t want that to get out.
Terry Pluto (01:03:14.135)
Yeah.
Terry Pluto (01:03:30.126)
Now here’s an interesting thing that’s going on is while
The football had these basically contracts partially guaranteed or whatever. It has leaked into the other sports where the contracts and the NBA are not as fully guaranteed. friend of mine is a long time agent in the NBA. He just recently retired. And he said, these guys are signing contracts like I would never sign my guys. He said, look, all right, I’m going to take, what’s the point of taking a hundred million for five?
And only 65 million is guaranteed. Tell you what, give me 60 for three, guarantee me the 20 million for three years, go shorter. He said, you’re playing right in because the teams want to spread that contract out longer because especially in sports such as football and basketball, not only does money work less over time, but also the salary cap goes up. So it makes it more palatable. He goes, what do you want to help them for?
I mean, this is a guy you’ll like this. So he was negotiating a contract with the calves, he told me, and it wasn’t with the owner, but it was with one of the GMs way in the past. And he said, the guy said, well, you know, what’s the difference between, you know, 58 and 62 million, you know, what’s a couple million at this point, either way. And the agent said, well, I absolutely agree. And your guys, your owner’s worth a lot more than my guy.
So what’s the difference? Just give it to us. Who’s got less?
David Campbell (01:05:08.697)
Just give it to them, Yeah, that’s a good one to use with car salesmen when you go in. It’s like, you know what? You really should buy this car. It’s not worth not getting it for $500. And you can just say like, yeah, well, just, you’re right. It’s not worth it. Give it to me. Yeah.
Terry Pluto (01:05:16.012)
Yeah, what’s the difference?
Terry Pluto (01:05:20.846)
Yeah, right. Yeah. Yeah, what’s the difference? You’re absolutely you’re right, you know, give it to me, know, whoever you like whatever name, you know, whatever is cardio or but it’s because he just said they sit there and listen these stupid arguments and His point was you’re better off going shorter fully guaranteed and getting to the thing there and he said Instead is he goes he called it leaking NFL with them into the NBA
where they’re doing a lot of these contracts that are not fully guaranteed. I remember the contract that...
Lorry market inside with the calves and the last year there, I think has been redone was like 40 % guaranteed. You know, cause he was talking about that guy who goes, why forget it. Give me the three guaranteed, you know? And, and so that’s a, get a negotiating play. We all should be in this position where we’re arguing over millions of dollars in guarantees, but it’s going. Now there was the other way, you know,
Baseball’s got all kinds of different ways now that all the stars contracts are fully guaranteed But why do some of these others are not you know, they’re partial guarantees or they’re up The buyout basically the last year he says what I want it what do I want to get bite out of the last year of a a At a bargain rate just let me be a free agent earlier. He said that’s that’s really what you want. Why do I want to help them?
David Campbell (01:06:53.274)
Yeah. Well, anyway, a little mini drama there. again, it’s a...
Terry Pluto (01:06:57.642)
and A and a lesson in aging. So next you’re right, David. Next time you have to car dealer, he says, what’s thousand dollars either way on my Ford pickup? That’s correct. I think Ford’s got more money than I do.
David Campbell (01:07:08.919)
Yeah, that happened to me one time they didn’t the car only had one key fob and the guy goes well You know, it’s only 150 bucks like it’s no big deal. You just go ahead and get the car and I said, yeah Well, that’s right throw in 150 bucks. I’ll get the car Yeah, give me the other key fob
Terry Pluto (01:07:21.736)
Yeah, right. Yeah, give me the other. It’s like you’re gonna you’re gonna mess up this deal. You’re gonna screw up your commission for a key fob. I mean really
David Campbell (01:07:29.57)
Yeah, but anyway, it’ll be interesting to see what happens in the future of guaranteed contracts and you know, we all, man, the baseball arbitration, not arbitration, but the collusion ruling 10 or 15 years ago where they proved it, the players made millions and millions in the wake of that when they found out the owners were working together to keep the salaries down.
Terry Pluto (01:07:44.173)
Yeah.
Terry Pluto (01:07:48.194)
Yeah, that was quite a quite quite a quite a long time ago, because one of the players that was involved in that was Mike Hargrove. And I think it’s when he was playing.
Texas or somewhere. forgot what it was, but yeah, he was one of the guys. Was there two? Okay. Yeah. Well, yeah. Well, those guys in baseball, they’re a different breed now. They’ll, you know, they fight for their, their cash. yeah. For decades. Yep. Marvin, you know, Marvin Miller, I had his home phone and the really delightful guy to talk to, but he would just say the most
David Campbell (01:08:03.148)
i think there was a more recent one to that might have been the first one there might have been another one but anyway it’s always interesting to watch it the guaranteed money and
David Campbell (01:08:13.506)
Definitely.
They’re leading the way in terms of player rights as they have for decades, right?
David Campbell (01:08:28.132)
Real quick Terry, Marvin Miller was the head of the players union and was a hard negotiator. I just want to make sure for people who don’t remember who that is.
Terry Pluto (01:08:32.828)
Correct. Right. And he’s the guy that brought free agency in and all that. He is the, you know, the, the godfather of modern baseball free agency like it or not. And he was, he was used to negotiate for, I forgot what union was with GE and those others, but what he was the most like the life of a guy. And he would just, he would just say, like, it really not, you know, sometimes I sit in these things and I tell the owners, well, you know,
You must think we’re stupid. We’re not that stupid. Just like that kind of way. He would just do that. He goes, I wasn’t pounding the table. He goes, but we’re not doing it. mean, don’t want to sit out, but we’ll sit out. Now you got to understand, I’m serious. My guys are serious. Just in that kind of voice. And he would always explain, you know, he would say things like my other friend, the agent who by the way loves Marvin Miller. He had studied them. It’s like, you know,
Why, why is it that when you say it doesn’t matter when were to you where you got more money? My guys. And of course, Marvin would always make like everybody was still working, you know, at Walmart or somewhere, you know, or on the line at, at us steel. Well, you know, we were a bunch of working stiffs here. I’m like, well, Marvin, not everybody, but it was interesting to listen to them and his approach to it.
David Campbell (01:09:39.833)
You
David Campbell (01:09:46.842)
You
Terry Pluto (01:09:53.182)
as opposed to some of these other guys pounding the table and screaming. It was the classic, you know, speak softly and carry a big stick. The stick being that the players trusted him implicitly. And once he got free agent for them, they would do anything he told them.
David Campbell (01:10:08.576)
And well-earned reputation as a quiet assassin. They hated negotiating with him because he was so good.
Terry Pluto (01:10:11.534)
Yes, he was. Oh, they did because they couldn’t make him mad. They couldn’t budge him. He was also like he would just go on all night, you know, there he was wouldn’t get tired. It was and and he was very smart on how he used the media so much better. You know, the owners were always outraged and he sounded calm and reasonable, even if you were saying some things that sort of seemed outrageous.
David Campbell (01:10:39.79)
All right, well, that’s probably enough contract stuff for one day, but yeah, but that’s very interesting to me and kind of the behind the scenes look at how this all works. So thanks for some of that background, Terry, and for bringing up the topic. So, all right, we have been reading some listener emails about Tom Hamilton is going to be honored in Cooperstown on baseball hall of fame weekend, which is the 25th, 26th and 27th. Man, that’s only a month away, but we’ve been getting some really great stories. If you want to send one in about memories of Tom Hamilton, listen to him do games or.
Terry Pluto (01:10:42.616)
Talk for that, yeah.
Terry Pluto (01:11:04.045)
Yeah.
David Campbell (01:11:09.518)
maybe somewhere you met him one time, send that all into sports at cleveland.com. You can put Tom Hamilton on the subject line or Terry’s talking or Terry’s talking to Tom Hamilton, any combination of that. And we’ll try to get it on an upcoming podcast. Here’s one today from Steve. And Steve has emailed us and he says, hey Terry and David, in regards to stories about Tom Hamilton, I don’t really have any specific anecdotes, but more just a general praise for his phenomenal and revered presence.
as the voice of Cleveland baseball amongst my sports sports watching friend group. Back in the 90s when I made many drives across the country to the other side of the Great Plains, it was comforting to tune into MLB games of the region and just listen in on other broadcasts. Setting my bias aside as best as I could, Hamilton was ridiculously far superior to anyone any other team was using. He just paints a picture of exactly what is going on so impeccably.
and the way he can convey the tone of a game, like whether the Guardians are mounting a comeback, a pitcher is in a strikeout groove, or the game is a blowout, he does so with just inflection in his calls. In the early 2000s, I was able to bring XM radio along with me on vacations and listen to Hammy call Tribe games throughout. His calls on Hafner blasts, adding a sweet cherry on top of a beautiful vacation day on a lake somewhere. Such was our fandom of Hammy that’s somewhere in my house, misplaced during a move, I think.
I had an audio cassette, yes, an actual 90 minute audio cassette filled with recorded hammy calls of exciting games during the Bob Wickman years and including that epic comeback against Seattle, which I listened to on the drive back from New Mexico and got home just as they won and was able to record the recap. One of our favorite parts of Hamilton’s abilities is his mastery of weaving hilarious and often scathing sarcasm into the play by play. He is truly unparalleled at this.
Terry Pluto (01:12:35.349)
Hahaha!
Bob, work with me!
David Campbell (01:12:58.924)
One time when the Tribe was playing against ex-teammate Milton Bradley, Bradley had to leave the game because of an injury sustained on a play, and Hamilton said something along the lines of, Bradley no doubt got injured, patting himself on the back. In another more recent, relatively languid and boring game in which the home plate missed a couple of calls badly, Hamilton said of the ump in a very assuming conversational tone.
Terry Pluto (01:13:11.391)
Hahaha!
David Campbell (01:13:23.122)
And so-and-so will be getting up at 830 tomorrow morning to go to the optometrist to check and see if his eyes are working properly. Those are two of thousands of masterful and playful jabs and quips he just rolls out there during play-by-play to make the radio experience that much more enjoyable. Tom Hamilton is truly a master and a Cleveland treasure. My friends and I wish him congratulations. So thanks for that, Steve.
Terry Pluto (01:13:26.222)
sorry.
Terry Pluto (01:13:46.306)
I’ll tell you all that’s true because we’re bird and I have serious exam. And so sometimes we’re out of town, you turn them in and you listen to the other broadcasters and there’s a huge difference. Now we did hear John Miller out of San Francisco. He was excellent. But for the most part, they don’t come close. I don’t know who the guys are doing the twins. This was when we were in Wyoming. It’s like, will you guys ever recap?
What just happened? know, Tom never says any something. They’ll say this on the radio. Well, you know, Cleveland is ahead five to two on a couple of two run home runs. They don’t say who, what you don’t have time to say, you know, who hit them. just, the mistake a lot of broadcasters make, and this is, I went to launch one time because Tom asked me to set up a lunch with him and Joe Tate was recap, recap, recap.
People are not sitting in there listening to you all day or all night. And especially they’re driving in the baseball and the radio is a working soundtrack. You must recap. And if you listen to Cleveland, Rosie does it too. They really recap. That’s a big thing that I think both of them grew up. You Rosie grew up doing the games in the minor leagues for the Buffalo Bisons, AAA. And they came up the hard way through the minors and they know what listeners want to hear.
David Campbell (01:15:14.564)
So true. And yeah, it’s one of those things where you think people are listening to the whole game from start to finish and you’ve got, they’re always coming and going, like you said, Terry, and we all know what that’s about. So, all right, again, if you want to send us some Tom Hamilton stories, sports at cleveland.com, send us an email and we will keep reading these up through the end of next month. So, all right, we good, Terry? Anything else you want to mention real quick? All right, don’t forget to check out Terry’s Faith in You column. It’s every Saturday morning online on cleveland.com and every Sunday in the plane dealer.
Terry Pluto (01:15:21.741)
Yeah.
Terry Pluto (01:15:34.444)
That is it.
David Campbell (01:15:44.238)
We’ll be back next week with another edition of Terry’s Talkin.