CLEVELAND, Ohio — In this episode of the Wine and Gold Talk Podcast, hosts Ethan Sands and Chris Fedor discuss the Cavs’ recent trade for Lonzo Ball, analyzing its implications for the team’s roster and financial situation.
Takeaways:
Lonzo Ball’s trade is seen as a significant upgrade for the Cavs.
Isaac Okoro’s contract was a liability for the team.
The Cavs are navigating a challenging salary cap situation.
Lonzo provides versatility and reliability that Okoro lacked.
Koby Altman is praised for his trade decisions despite draft criticisms.
Lonzo’s health and performance are crucial for the Cavs’ success.
The Cavs are focused on building a championship-contending team.
Lonzo’s role will be similar to Okoro’s but with greater impact.
The Cavs are looking to optimize their roster for playoff success.
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Transcript
NOTE: This transcript was generated by artificial intelligence and could contain misspellings and errors.
Speaker A: What up, Cavs Nation? I’m your host, Ethan says, and I’m back with another episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. Joining me, Chris Fedor, cleveland.com’s Cavs beat reporter, and Chris, I don’t like tooting our own horn, but we have been talking about the possibility of of this happening for a month. Lonzo Ball is a Cleveland Cavalier, Chris, and he was traded in a one on one deal for Isaac Okoro. You have been preaching about the necessity for the Cavs to get off of Isaac Okoro’s contract. You have been preaching the fact that Isaac Okoro is the most likely player to have been traded. I think this was the most ideal trade for the Cleveland Cavaliers. I think this is best suited not only for Darius Garland missing the beginning of the season, but the fact that they could be without Ty Jerome come the start of the year. What does this trade say about what the Cavs are going to be doing this summer? And what does this say about being the first splash that Cleveland makes this year?
Speaker B: Ethan I think a couple of things. I think first and foremost, you know, you had somebody in Isaac that you resigned to a contract three years, $33 million. So you’re talking about $11 million annually. And Isaac is the kind of guy who got pushed further and further down the depth chart. He’s coming off a season where he had career lows in points, career lows in minutes. So when you have an $11 million a year player, when you’re in the situation that the Cavs are in, projected as a second apron team, one of the priciest rosters in the entire NBA, and you have a player like Isaac who’s making around $11 million and not giving you that kind of value on the floor, it’s very difficult to justify that. It’s very difficult to afford that. He wasn’t playing like an $11 million player. He didn’t have the role of an $11 million player. So that’s where this all comes to a head. And if you talk about Isaac as you continue to go on with his career, the defense, obviously everyone’s going to talk about that. Everybody’s going to point to the impact that he makes at that end of the floor, his screen navigation, his point of attack defense, the pressure that he can create. But we’ve talked about it on the podcast. When you get into a playoff environment and teams have scouting reports and teams are trying to find every single flaw within your system, every single flaw that a player has, and they’re trying to exploit Those flaws. It became really, really difficult for Kenny Atkinson or even JB Bickerstaff previously to play Isaac in a playoff environment because teams just ignored him, because teams didn’t respect his offense, because it congested the floor. It made The Cavs play 4 on 5 on the offensive end. And it was just really, really difficult for them to scheme around that. It was really, really difficult for them to get him consistent minutes in a playoff series. If you look at the Miami series, he didn’t play much. If you look at the Indiana series, despite the fact that Darius Garland was less than 100%, despite the fact that DeAndre Hunter missed one of those games and wasn’t 100%, the Cavs just couldn’t find a way to consistently play him. They couldn’t afford to consistently play him. So I think they set out this off season and they said to themselves, okay, we’ve got two options here with Isaac. We can just do pure salary dump. We can find a team that has enough salary cap space or has a quote unquote exception that will just take his salary from us and then we get some salary cap relief. We’ll probably have to attach an asset or two to that. Or we can look at a situation and say, all right, can we find somebody with a comparable salary to Isaac where that guy is a better option for us? That guy is going to have a bigger role, that guy is going to be more reliable when you get into the playoffs, that guy is going to be more impactful for us. That guy’s going to give us more lineup flexibility. That guy’s going to give us more versatility within his offensive game. So when you look at everything involved involving the Cavs, Isaac’s role, their salary cap situation, an opportunity to get somebody like Lonzo who creates more versatility, gives them some more lineup flexibility, a more reliable shooter, a secondary playmaker, somebody that can just do more within the offense. It became an opportunity that the Cavs felt like they could capitalize on. And look, Lonzo wasn’t the only one that they kicked around the idea of when it came to using Isaac’s contract to getting another player, somebody with a comparable salary. But Lonzo, for, for them made a lot of sense. He’s a really good defender as well. And I, I talked on a previous podcast, Ethan, about comparing Lonzo to, to Alex Caruso, and I’m not talking about exactly the style matching, but get him into a situation where it’s a winning environment and you can feel the impact on a nightly basis. And I think Lonzo can have that kind of impact for the Cavs, especially when you get into a playoff series against New York. Jalen Brunson, if you get into a playoff series against Detroit, Cade Cunningham get into a playoff series against the Atlanta Hawks. Trey Young so I think this was a good move from the Cavs. I think this was a needed move from the Cavs. And beyond everything else, Ethan, they save $1 million. And when you’re the Cavs and you’re in the financial situation that they’re in, every dollar matters, every penny matters, every million matters. And saving money on this kind of deal, that’s just a feather in the gap.
Speaker A: I think Kobe Altman is continuing to show that even if fans are arguing about his draft choices, that he gets it done when it comes to trades, right? This is, this is coming off of a year where he traded Karis Lavert and George Niang for DeAndre Hunter. Now you trade Isaac Okoro for for a guy like Lonzo Ball and you continue to elevate this roster and continue to get to where the Cavs want to be at with what Kobe Altman has continued to do with the roster and his moves. But the other thing that I like about this and that I think about the lines of Ball trade and the contract that he’s on is the fact that he has a club option after the 2526 season. So the Cavs can basically one and done him. If it doesn’t work out, it’s a trial run to see if he is a fit for this team, if he can help them get where they want to go. And obviously we talked about it throughout the entire summer. Chris, like the Cavs needed another guard that can defend. They needed somebody at the point of attack who can handle the load of guarding players around the league like John Morant, players around the lay like you mentioned, Jalen Brunson. I think this is a trade that helps them in multiple different facets. And we talk about the facilitation, the drive and penetrate, the driving kicks that are possible because of Lonzo Ball’s ability. And when you watch the videos from this summer of him hanging out with his brother LaMelo Ball and LiAngelo Ball on the Internet, they’re having fun. But you see a different confidence from Lonzo that hasn’t been there in some time because of his injury history, but because he’s healthy and able to have a true summer, a true offseason that he hasn’t been able to have in years past. So yes, there is an injury history Here, yes, there is some skepticism on whether or not he’s going to be able to play for 82 games in the season, whether he’ll be around for the playoffs, all of these things. But the fact is, if Lonzo Ball is healthy, if Lonzo Ball can be healthy for the Cavs heading into the playoffs, he’s exactly the type of player, the type of winner, the type of player that wants to be able to compete at the highest level that the Cavs have been looking for and that we’ve been preaching that the Cavs have needed for all of this summer, for all of this offseason. And I know this might be a difficult conversation to have, but Chris, you talked about it in your article this morning that you wrote about what you are hearing from, about the Cleveland Cavaliers and the pessimistic tone of keeping and retaining Ty Jerome and Sam Merrill. What does this trade say to you about that possibility?
Speaker B: Again, when it comes to Ty, this is more insurance, this is more protection in case the Cavs and Ty Jerome can’t find a number that the Cavs are comfortable with. I, I think if, if we’re talking about Ty, the Cavs like him, they want him back. But there’s a reality that they’re facing and that’s where the pessimism comes from. That’s where the pessimistic tone comes from. With this organization, there’s only so many guys that you can give 14 to 16 million dollars. This is a top heavy roster to begin with. Darius Garland, Jared Allen, Donovan Mitchell, Evan Mobley, they’re going to take up the largest chunk of the salary cap space for this team and you’re trying to find other pieces around those guys that are affordable enough for you to feel like you can compete for a championship. And when it comes to Ty on this team with this setup, he’s a 19 minute a night player and it’s not just giving him 12 to 14 million dollars annually. It’s the luxury tax bill that’s coming with that. And the Cavs would have to turn to Dan Gilbert. The decision makers for this organization. Kobe Altman, Mike Gansey, Brandon Weems, John Nichols. Everybody else in the front office would have to turn to Dan Gilbert and say this is why we’re justifying giving Ty Jerome this kind of money. This is the role that he’s going to have, this is the impact that he can have and all these different things and Dan is going to turn around. And, and this isn’t to say that Dan Gilbert is cheap, but again, there’s a reality of being a second apron team and the limitations that come with it. Think about what Brad Stevens said for the Boston Celtics the other night. He said something along the lines of, you know, I didn’t really understand the ramifications of being a second apron team until I had to deal with those limitations, until I had to understand and try and come up with trades and look at all the different team building things that were going to be preventative because of being in the second apron. And, and that’s Brad Stevens, that’s the Boston Celtics. So this isn’t a situation where Dan Gilbert is, is being cheap, where he’s pinching pennies, where he’s giving some kind of demand to this front office about, hey, you’ve got to cut salary or you’ve got to do this because I’m not comfortable with a salary number here. But it’s. He wants to understand why each player is worthy of that deal. And when it comes to Ty Jerome, it’s not just 12 to 14 million dollars. Not for the Cavs. For another team that has the mid level exception, it’s just 12 to 14 million dollars annually. With the Cavs, it’s the luxury tax that’s involved with that. So whatever contract Ty jerome gets, it’s six times that in luxury tax. Six times. So we’re talking about $80 million. When all is said and done for Ty Jerome, can the Cavs justify that? Can the Cavs really tell Dan Gilbert that Ty Jerome is worth that? So it’s something that they really have to figure out here. These are the difficult decisions that face any team that approaches the second apron. These are the difficult decisions that face any team that is one of the highest spending rosters in the NBA. So with Tai, look, he wants to get paid, he should want to get paid. He’s coming off a career year. He has never gotten the monstrous contract by NBA standards, the monstrous contracts and he’s earned it third in six man of the year voting a key piece of the Cavs bench. But the Cavs have to ask themselves is what it’s going to cost for them to retain him, is that really worth it? And I, I think you see the two moves that they’ve made so far. Bringing in secondary ball handling, bringing in extra playmaking, it’s insurance, it’s protection. If there’s a team out there that is more comfortable giving Ty the 12 to 14 million dollars annual salary than the Cavs, then maybe it does end up with, with him leaving this off season, then the Cavs Turning around and saying, okay, we’re going to try and replace Ty Jerome with. With somebody at the fraction of the cost. Can we get Malcolm Brogdon on the veterans minimum? Can we get Tyus Jones on the veterans minimum? What’s the status of Tre Jones? The Chicago Bulls want him back? Or can we get him on the minimum? Can we get Spencer Dinwiddie on the minimum? And you can sit here and you can say, well, those guys aren’t going to give you what Ty Jerome gave you. And you’re probably right, he was third in six man in the year voting. But can they give you enough of that stuff so that you don’t feel the loss as much of die Ty Jerome and you don’t have to go as deep into the luxury tax as the Cavs would. You don’t have to be that far above the second apron like the Cavs would with bringing back Ty. So again, this isn’t a situation where the Cavs don’t like Tai. They don’t value him. They do like him. They do value him. They do want him back. But there’s a reality to the situation that they’re dealing with here that makes it financially difficult to do that. And I think there are legitimate questions about whether it’s even fiscally responsible to bring back Ty Jerome at that particular number.
Speaker A: Yeah, And I think you make some good points, especially when you talk about the contract, especially when you talk about the $80 million hit that the Cavs would take if they were to give 14.1, $14.3 million to Ty Jaron. Right. And it’s so difficult to talk about this situation because we know the locker room emotions of losing a player that meant a lot, especially coming off a season where Karis Lavert and George Nie were traded. Right. So the possibility, the potential for DeAndre Hunter to have played half of a season with his best friend and then seeing him get shipped off somewhere else because it simply doesn’t work financially. Or Donovan Mitchell saying, hey, we’ve created this family oriented system where you feel like everyone around you has a role, knows their role, and obviously Donovan Mitchell, Ty Jeroum having the relationship from when they were younger. It’s difficult because as we’ve talked about Chris on this podcast, at length, basketball and this game is not just about the game that’s played, it’s about the people that are involved. And I think it’s so important to that in mind. And the fit of Lonzo Ball and obviously the Cavs are making this move with the thought process that he can help them win, that he can help them get to where they want to go. And I think this is part of the pulling the band aid off of a situation where the Cavs know that this next year is their most likely chance of winning a championship and they have to take it full on to be able to do that.
Speaker B: Well, I think the other thing, Ethan, is, you know, when it comes to Lonzo, he’s not going to go in the starting lineup, right? He’s not all of a sudden going to be a 28 to 32 minute a night guy. He’s basically going to take a similar role to Isaac, but he can do more than Isaac. He’s more reliable than Isaac. He might be more playable in a playoff environment. We got to take a wait and see approach on that. But he might be more playable in a playoff environment because he doesn’t have as many limitations offensively, he doesn’t have as many weak points offensively. And that’s what it’s about. You have to find as many helpful players that you can to fortify this bench and to fortify this roster. And I’m not talking about getting through the 82 game season, I’m talking about in the 16 game season. I’m talking about in the NBA playoffs. I’m talking about competing for a championship. It’s easier to see Lonzo Ball helping the Cavs in a playoff environment than Isaac. At the very least, we know that every single time the Cavs have gotten to the playoffs, Isaac Okoro has basically gotten played off the floor. He’s gotten pushed out of the rotation. You just can’t have those kinds of guys on your roster that are making $11 million a year. Not when you’re in the salary cap situation that you’re in with the Cavs, not when you’re having to make these difficult decisions from a financial standpoint. You know, the two moves that the Cavs have made to this point in their off season in some ways have been financially motivated. And they’re going to continue to make these financially motivated decisions because they have to, because that’s the situation that they’re in. And you’re right, there are questions about Lonzo and I don’t think anybody is going to go overboard here. But. But you just added somebody to your bench that you think is more reliable, that can do more than the guy who he’s basically replacing. And now you have to ask yourself the same questions about Dean Wade. Now you have to ask yourself the same questions about Sam Merrill. Now you have to ask yourself the same questions about Ty Jerome. The Cavs owe it to themselves to ask those difficult questions. And maybe they can find somebody that can replace Sam Merrill. Maybe they can find somebody that can replace Dean Wade. Maybe they can find somebody that can replace Ty Jerome. Just like they felt like they improved this roster and they found a better version of Isaac, just in terms of, like, the role and in terms of their standing within the rotation. He’s not in the top five, he’s not in the starting five. But does he make you better guy number eight? Yes, I think he does. Now, can you get better at guy number nine? Can you get better at guy number 10? And those are all the things that the Cavs are looking at this off season.
Speaker A: Chris and I think the one of the biggest things that we haven’t touched on yet when it comes to Lonzo is how he can help the small backcourt issues that we’ve seen when it comes to Darius and Donovan Mitchell. And I’m not saying that this is going to right initiate a trade for Darius Garland or anything of that nature, because as we said, Lonzo Ball is a role player. But Donovan Mitchell and Darius Garland are a small backcourt. As we’ve talked about on this podcast, I don’t really care what Kenny Atkinson says about Donovan Mitchell’s wingspan and how he plays gridion, the defensive end, all these things. Lonzo Ball is six six. You cannot teach being six’ six. Right. Darius cannot just wake up one morning and be six’ six. Donovan Mitchell can’t wake up one morning and be 66. So now you have a defensive stopper on that end of the floor who can also help on the offensive end, take the ball out of Donovan Mitchell’s hands and create for everybody around him. One of the best assets of Lonzo Ball is his speed and his passing and his iq. Yeah, in his iq. And I think it’s not by coincidence that the Cavs have pursued Lonzo since the trade deadline last year, inquiring about whether or not he was available, and then waiting until this summer when he officially became available for the Chicago Bulls and what that meant for them. And being six, six, being able to disrupt at the point of attack on defense, being able to take, take the ball out of Donovan Mitchell’s hands and let him do what he does best, which is get off the ball and move and all these things, it creates a motion flowing offense that Kenny Atkinson is going to feed off of and continue to grow in a style that he has already tried to Implement in a previous season where they won 64 games, Chris, and already to this point in the off season, I’m willing to say that this Cavs team, based on this trade, is better than they were last year.
Speaker B: Yeah, I think that’s fair. I, I think that’s how they’re looking at it. I mean, Lonzo is somebody that they’ve had on their radar for a couple of months now. If you go back to the trade deadline, it, it was a possibility, it was kicked around. It felt like the Chicago Bulls valued him a little bit more than this. But look, if, if they’re looking at Isaac Okoro and saying, hey, there might be something there still, he was the number five overall pick in 2020. Motivation is, is really hard to predict and, and how an organization views one guy is, is hard to get a real sense of. But the Cavs have liked Alonzo for, for a number of months and they see him as a fit. The Cavs want a more modern, uptempo, high paced offense. That’s Lonzo. Right? They want more spacing and in shooting and more volume around Donovan Mitchell, Darius Garland, Evan Mowgli, all these different guys. You know, Lonzo, there were questions about him as, as a three point shooter coming into the NBA, but he worked hard to improve that aspect and he’s become a high volume three point shooter as well. So he’s a willing shooter that’s going to open up things, that’s going to threaten a defense in a way that Isaac doesn’t. That’s going to make the Cavs offense have a level of respect with Lonzo on the floor in a way that they don’t as much with somebody like Isaac. So yeah, I mean, I think this is definitely an improvement for the Cavs. I think this is an upgrade for the Cavs. And again, I don’t think it’s about the 82 game season. I think it’s about competing for a championship. And you can see a pathway to playoff level success for, for, for Alonzo in a way that, that you can’t or a way that you haven’t with, with Isaac in, in a way that he probably wasn’t going to get the opportunity to because again, JP Bickerstaff had to go away from him. That was one coach that saw the limitations and he had to go away from him and he bounced him out of the rotation. And then you bring in a new coach with Kenny Atkinson and Kenny was talking about, well, we’re going to mask some of those limitations because we’re going to use him as a screen setter. We’re going to let him get rebounds and push in transition and fuel offense that kind of way. We’re not going to just put him in the corner and make him a standstill shooter and all those different things. And then they get into the playoffs and what does Kenny do? Kenny does the same thing that JB Biggerstaff did. He went away from him because he didn’t feel like he could trust him because he didn’t feel like it was the best thing for the Cavs offense despite his defensive impact. So I do think this just gives the Cavs a more reliable option coming off the bench, a more versatile option coming off the bench and somebody who probably fits the way that the Cavs want to play better than than Isaac does. And and like I said, it’s insurance and protection because there has been a pessimistic tone about Ty Jerome in in recent days from the Cavs because they understand the reality of the salary cap situation that they’re in.
Speaker A: And obviously as you mentioned, it is not about the 82 game season. Even though some fans, some subtexters are already replying to our subtext talking about he’s never healthy, right? Well, this is the chance for him to prove that he can be healthy. And I think it’s also helpful the fact that Kenny Atkinson has already shown that he has plans in set for different players. Even Caris Levert who was on the team and had wear and tear issues throughout his career, having plans for those players and how to optimize their significance on this team. I think this is a great fit for the Cavs. I think this is a great fit for Lonzo Ball. So with all that being said, that’ll wrap up today’s episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. But remember to become a Cavs insider and interact with Chris, me and Jimmy by subscribing to subtext. Sign up for a 14 day free trial or visit cleveland.comcavs and click on the blue bar at the top of the page. If you don’t like it, that’s fine. All you have to do is text the word stop. It’s easy, but we can tell you that the people who sign up stick around because this is the best way to get Insider covered in the Cavs from me, Chris and Jimmy. This isn’t just our podcast, it’s your podcast and the only way to have your voice heard is through subtext. Y’ all be safe. We out.
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