CLEVELAND, Ohio — This week’s Terry’s Talkin’ podcast, with cleveland.com columnist Terry Pluto and host David Campbell, is live. In this episode, we look at the big moves by the Cavs over the weekend with their trade for Lonzo Ball and signing of Sam Merrill.
We also get into the Guardians' and their recent struggles, and players who might be staying and might be going as the trade deadline nears later this month. And Terry talks about what he’s hearing about the Browns, including a rookie who’s got the coaches’ attention already.
We also share another listener story about Tom Hamilton in advance of his Hall of Fame weekend in Cooperstown, N.Y., later this month.
Highlights:
The Cavs made significant trades to improve their roster. Are they better?
Ty Jerome’s contract with the Grizzlies surprised many fans.
The WNBA is returning to Cleveland, marking a significant milestone. Terry discusses why Joe Tait would have loved the news.
Fans email in, and they are down about the Guardians, and especially with their sloppy play in the field.
The Guardians need to make strategic moves before the trade deadline: What can they do? Who should stay and go?
Browns training camp is approaching, with excitement around new players, especially one rookie.
Larry Doby’s legacy is crucial in understanding Cleveland’s sports history, and Terry argues that Doby had it harder with Cleveland than Jackie Robinson did with the Dodgers.
More listener stories about Tom Hamilton as his Baseball Hall of Fame weekend approaches later this month.
Here’s the podcast for this week:
If you have something you’d like to share about Tom Hamilton, or a question or a topic you’d like to see included on the podcast, email it to sports@cleveland.com, and put “Terry’s Talkin’” in the subject line.
You can find previous podcasts below, as well as a transcript.
As the transcript is computer-generated, it will contain many spelling and grammatical errors.
David Campbell: Hey, welcome. It’s time for this week’s edition of the Terry’s Talking Podcast. I’m David Campbell, your loyal host, and Mr. Terry Pluto is here as he is every week. Man, we got a lot. We got a lot to go over today. Last week, I remember you said that you were fine if Ty Jerome stayed or went, and that happened, and we had a trade, and there’s all kinds of stuff going on. So maybe we’ll start with the. With the Cavs today. And then, man, we got a lot to get into with the Guardians, too. There’s the June to be forgotten, what they’ve just gone through. So let’s start. I guess we’ll just go in order, right, Terry? The Lanzo ball trademark kind of came out of nowhere to some fans, but I think our guys, Chris Feeder, Ethan Sands, Jimmy Watkins on the podcast, have kind of been talking about that one as a possibility for a few weeks, and I’m just coming to happen.
Terry Pluto: Did they mention ball?
David Campbell: Yeah, yeah. They. They were kind of throwing around trades that they thought could make sense for the cast. That was one. Yeah. So. But what did you think of it, and what does it do for the Cavs? It’s pretty much a little bit of a risk because of the injury history. Right. But how do you. How do you see it?
Terry Pluto: Well, you start with the money, which you do almost all the time now in the NBA. And Okoro was at 11 million this year and guaranteed 11.8 million next season. So those are your numbers. And then you put in Okoros. Just. He just disappears in the playoffs. It just doesn’t work for him. You know, his lack of offense becomes a problem, and he doesn’t make up for enough of it with the defense and other things. He becomes timid in the playoffs, too, David. I mean, he’s pretty athletic. He can go to the rim and do some things, but just seems like he kind of stands off to the side and watches the stars. And then if you do that, they’ll throw you the ball and actually misses a shot or two, which often happens if you don’t shoot much to begin with.
David Campbell: And then it’s over.
Terry Pluto: It’s over. Yeah. I mean, his shooting percentage regular season went up and got better, so they realized he couldn’t help them, and they. And, you know, probably if Kobe looked back at the contract he gave him, I think it was like 3 years and 33 million or something like that. That’s one of those. You probably wish he hadn’t given it to him. So then he had their postseason meetings. It was like, see if we can find a big guard who can handle the ball coming off the bench. They, I think, assumed that Tyler Ron was going to get a bigger contract than he did from Memphis. So they figured, well, let’s see what we could do. They offered a coral around. There was not much of a market. But the Bulls, who just were tired of Lonzo Ball being hurt, they were just tired of it. And you know, he played only, I think was 35 games in the last three years. It’s something like 70 some over the last. No, excuse me. I remember now it’s 85 over the last four. But that was like the first of the last four years. He played 50 some, then he missed two entirely. And I think he played 35 last season. So you look at that, and even though he was pretty fairly productive in those games, you’re the. You’re the Bulls. You go, we need players. I mean, you’re. You’re got Chicago roots. What’s going on with them? So what are they thinking on this trailer? I wanted to come at it from their view first.
David Campbell: Yeah. So they’re getting somebody who’s still young and has a lot of good years left, who’s not really expensive, who plays good defense. Right. And can bring some excitement and get to the basket and dump.
Terry Pluto: And he’s a culture. He’s a culture guy. You know, he’s about all your right stuff. I know JB looked at trying to get him to Detroit. That was one of the things Big C think so if you’re the Bulls, you’re trying to get to the playoffs, you’re trying to do something, you know, he could help them. And then you probably just figured, what, ball gets hurt, he’s gonna get hurt again. So let’s see if we could turn that asset into something. Because I don’t think people are lined up to a trade for Alonzo Ball either. And so that’s your deal. Cleveland, meanwhile, said we’ll run the risk because his contract, slightly less than Okoros, a million less. But more importantly, if he gets hurt again, he just has there’s a team option. In other words, the Cavs could just dump out of the contract. So even though this year they’re in the dreaded second apron, all that stuff that would be one of their moves heading into 26 to get out of the apron would be shedding that salary. In the meantime, maybe he will be able to be the guy. I mean, I like his game, David. I mean, I really do. He’s he’s just a fair shooter, but he can defend. And I saw him play for the Bulls this year when he came back after having. It was knee. It was like a replacement surgery. It wasn’t just knee surgery. They replaced, transplanted a ligament and a meniscus and I think cartilage and something else. I mean, his knees, a disaster area. And then also he ended up missing the last 20 some games with a wrist injury. But I actually saw one of the games he played in the interim there, and I go, boy, for this guy, all beat up, he could still play. He pushes the ball up the court. He’s got. He’s still pretty active defensively, really a smart player. And I mean, I even thought, man, he’d be a really good backup on a, on a. On a good team.
David Campbell: So I. I’m gonna throw a hockey. You’ve got your Earl Weaver segment every week, Terry. I’ve got my hockey segment. There’s a guy for the Florida Panthers named Matthew Kachuk who I think I’ve mentioned he’s one. He’s one of their best players, but he’s not the most skilled guy on the team. But he had a lower body injury for like the last three months of the season, and they didn’t even try to play him during that time. And then he came back for the playoffs, which is all he really wanted to do anyway, and they won the Stanley Cup. So I hope that Cavs fans don’t judge the value of Lonzo Ball by how much he plays in the regular season, is my point. Like, if there’s ever a guy who’s built for load management like this is it right? You need to have him ready in April and May and the Cavs hope into June, and he’s one of these. I mean, everybody talked about Ty Jerome being a connector, and I think that’s something that Kenny Atkinson really liked about bringing him in, is that he doesn’t. He doesn’t need to be the star on a team. He’s happy making everybody else around him play well. That’s like his mission now. And having somebody like that in the playoffs who’s got some size and can play some defense like you want him healthy. So again, I hope Cavs fans just kind of. It doesn’t matter how much he plays regular season as long as he’s ready for the playoffs, right?
Terry Pluto: Yeah, enough to figure out how to do that, because you need to play some. And definitely now the Cavs top Cavs person told me that the knee is quote, unquote fine. I mean, Ulik has had all that done, but that wasn’t what knocked him out. But it’s a wrist injury, but there’s a whole bunch of other injuries, so we’ll see. Atkinson, I know, was looking for a player like this because I’ve had some discussions with Atkinson over a couple times since the season ended and just, you know, a couple guys talking. And I know now Ball’s name did not come up, but I knew the kind of player he was looking for and there was just that. I mean, that Indiana series really hurt Jerome. Not just in the eyes of the Cavs, it hurt his market. I was surprised. What did he get, 28 for 3 or something like that?
David Campbell: Yeah. So should we move into the Ty Jerome, Sam Merrill situation? So Ty Jerome has agreed again. Today’s July 1st, which is. I get. You know, it’s the first day of free agency, right. Because the negotiating period was started Monday night. But Ty Jerome, 3 years, 28 million that he’s agreed to with the Memphis Grizzlies. So basically nine plus. And shortly after that, we learned that the Cavs have agreed with Sam Merrill on a four year, $38 million contract, which nine plus, you know, plus a little bit more. So what did you think of the terms of that? Those two deals were kind of interesting to me. I did think. I did think Jerome might get a little more money. I think you’re right. A lot of fans did, too. Right. How did you. The Cavs couldn’t. Couldn’t do both. So they chose Sam Merrill, basically.
Terry Pluto: Right. The Merrill deal came down first. And a really interesting part of the story is the way I read this. Merrill and Ty Drum both work for the same agency out of Chicago, Priority Sports. So they would really know what the Cavs are doing because it was two of their players. And probably. And the Cavs have had good relationships with that. Mark Barlstein runs that thing. And for example, Max Struz is one of his clients. Niang was one of his clients. You go all the way back to Hot Rod Williams was his very first client way back when. Larry Nance Jr. Ton of guys, he’s had a long relationship with Cleveland. And they simply. They picked Merrill over Jerome. But part of it, I think they felt they would be better off signing Merrill early because they. I think they thought Bartlestein was going to get 12 to 15 million a year for Jerome. That was on the media thing, and it just didn’t happen. And once the ball. We knew once they did the ball thing that that Was it for Jerome?
David Campbell: Yeah, sorry, I screwed that up. I. I knew one was right on top of the other, but it was the Lonzo ball trade, and then Sam Merrill came right after that, and then Ty Jerome was last night. So. Sorry about that. I got my. It was a whirlwind week.
Terry Pluto: No. So it was. But it’s interesting to me, the same agency had both of the guys.
David Campbell: Right.
Terry Pluto: I always say, kind of take a peek behind the curtain and tell you.
David Campbell: Do you feel like the Cavs are better now than they were when we were podcasting last week?
Terry Pluto: Well, I mean, basically the question is, would you rather have Ball or Jerome? It’s a tough one because of the injuries. Would you rather have even a. If you could tell me Ball’s going to play 50 games and play in the playoffs, I’d rather go with that. If you tell me he’s going to play 30 games and who knows what you’d rather have Jerome. But the skill problem for Jerome, that got exposed by Indiana, the ball handling, is something he’s actually going to have to deal with, I think, more this regular season. You’ll see more guys up in his grill, really going after him. But the guy can score. There’s no question he can score. He has, you know, some real fire to him. And I also believe the Cavs were thinking they’re going to work with Craig Porter Jr. On trying to help his point guard skills, which are pretty good. He’s just inexperienced. And as I. I think we talked about in the podcast and I mentioned it, they want this guy just to play with more fire. You know, kind of like Ty Jerome was. They just really go after it. There’s opportunities here for him. And so this might have been that. Meanwhile, Merrill. But Kenny Atkinson loves Merrill’s defense. He thinks he’s. He just kind of gets all over guys. They like this size 6, 5, 6, 6. He’s just not a standstill shooter. They really. Basically, he would rather have Merrill and Jerome. I’m sorry, Merrill and Ball, then. Well, they weren’t going to have Merrill and Jerome, so then just have Jerome. I think that was the question. Do you want Merrill and Ball and. And lose or Coro and Jerome? That was what it came down to. So Okoro and Jerome versus Merrill and Ball. And I think Atkinson was on the. Well, I’ll roll with the Merrill and Ball combination. Work with Porter, you know, now they drafted Parker or, excuse me, Proctor, but he’s more of a Sam Merrill type than a Jerome type. You know, he’s. He did play Some point at Duke, but really he was best when they put the ball in Connor Cooper Flag’s hands and some others there. So it was fun to watch this break down. But I mean, that’s it for the Cavs now. I mean they have like, I think. Was it the 3 million minimum salary? They could also.
David Campbell: Yeah, there ain’t gonna be no free agent frenzy.
Terry Pluto: This is it.
David Campbell: I think they can’t offer more than 3 million, which is the veterans minimum to any outside free agent. But Chris Fedor did have an interesting name as a possible person who could fit that. And I think this would be a brilliant move. Al Horford.
Terry Pluto: Means are gonna line. I saw that. They’re gonna line up for that guy.
David Campbell: They are, yeah. But that would be a really good fit if they could make it work for that money. If he wanted to come here. I mean, he’s 39, but that guy just, he, he changes his game based on who he’s playing with.
Terry Pluto: Yeah.
David Campbell: And a veteran who’s won NBA championships and just knows how to play. And I think he. He would be really good to have around another guy to have. Really good to have around for the young guys to show them, hey, this guy’s been in the league forever. He knows what it takes to prepare. He knows what it takes to win and watch him and kind of. You talked about the Corey Kluber effect, right. With the, with the Guardians over the years. I think Alanford would bring another level.
Terry Pluto: Of that because he could still play some. Yeah, that’s the key part.
David Campbell: But you’re right, if he finds more money at a team that is a contender, he’s going to take that.
Terry Pluto: And that’s what I mean.
David Campbell: He’d be a great fit here.
Terry Pluto: I even. Look, if you’re. Truthfully, I don’t know what Oklahoma City’s cap situation is, but it’s not that bad.
David Campbell: It’s good.
Terry Pluto: Yeah. Can you imagine bringing him into that? I mean I could just. Or now Indiana has Miles Turner. Now he’s a free agent. But they’re not in big trouble, I think with their cap either. They may be coming up. But see, I think teams like that. This guy, I mean he would be a gem if they could get him in here.
David Campbell: I think Miles Turner might be signing. Okay. Look and see. Yeah, I’ll have to check. Yeah, Miles Turner, it looks like he’s. According to Shams.
Terry Pluto: Yeah.
David Campbell: He’s signing for a four year 107 million dollar deal with the Bucks. The Bucks, yeah. There you go.
Terry Pluto: Oh, that. Because Brooke Lopez wants somewhere to the Clippers or something. So therefore, boy, that would be a. I mean, there’s, you know, if you want to go cheap on that, if you’re Indiana, there’s Horford. If I were Rick Carlisle, I would be on the phone the moment Shams like just tweeted anything with Miles Turner’s name on or whatever. Yeah. Because that would be a perfect guy for them. So we’ll see.
David Campbell: All right, so LeBron James has opted into his $50 million plus contract with the Lakers next season. This kind of happen, happens every summer where people start Talking about whether LeBron will come back and what the Cavs could trade to get him. And it’s just. It’s like. Yeah, it’s a. It’s a fantasy. And. Yeah, let’s not. Right.
Terry Pluto: Yeah, my. As my father was saying, you know, don’t even think it. Yeah. Because I’m not even sure now what the apron they could even do you need. I think you need a $52 million player on your roster to do it. One of the things that really did it was great for Evan Mobley. But one of the things that did mess up the Cavs and their approach to the cab is to the cap is when he won defensive player of the year, his salary went up to $10 million from 36 to 46. Remember, this is not about Dan Gilbert doesn’t have the money. Gilbert’s got the money. He’ll spend the money, but he doesn’t want to spend it stupidly.
David Campbell: That might have been behind the Ty Jerome thing too. It’s like, listen, if you guys really, really, really need to have him to win a championship, let’ pay the tax or whatever. But if you think there’s another way, let’s do that instead. And then you might have been behind the move, too.
Terry Pluto: And also maybe a mid season, you go and you say, do you really want to. We may have to go quote underwater for a better player now. Actually, what started this was when they traded for Hunter, you know, because his salary, he’s making more money this year, 23 million than Jared Allen is. And they knew that. And that was part of the reason the price for Hunter wasn’t too steep for a guy who’s pretty good player. I mean, he was hurting to play in the playoffs, but fans saw him, he could play, you know, as Niang and Karis Levert and Lavert’s free agent. I think he just signed with somebody and Niang got traded. Niang’s with Boston. So there you are. But what I’m Saying is that started this we’re going to spend there because they knew this was going to cost them more. But they would rather go a little bit underwater for DeAndre Hunter than they would for Ty Jerome. I guess that’s really what was saying. So, you know, if you break it down I’m talking now, I’m kind of almost my mind outlining a story. Would you rather have ball in Merrill or would you rather have, you know, Tiger Roman Okoro? I mean, those are kind of the different choices. And then also, would you rather have hung on to Niang and well, Vert’s gonna a free agent hung on Niang, for example, or would you rather take spend more money for hundreds? So those are those kind of big picture things that we’re looking at.
David Campbell: All right. Oh, big Story came out yesterday. Ashley Bastock, our colleague, wrote about it. Yesterday morning, the WNBA announced they are bringing their league back to Cleveland for the 2028 season. I think it’s been almost 25 years since the Rockers.
Terry Pluto: Yeah. 03 was the last year. Yeah.
David Campbell: So it will be 25 years. Exactly. And I thought you had a really interesting headline in your column today, Terry, about how much Joe Tate would have enjoyed this because he loved the Rockers. But this is kind of an important development for Cleveland sports with the way the WNBA is expanding. I think they currently have 13 teams. And they also. Yeah, they also announced there’s going to be teams in Detroit in 2029, Philadelphia in 2030. So growing. And Cleveland’s gonna be part of it. So what was your take on that? And why don’t you talk about Joe Tate and how much he loved. He was the voice of the Rockers. Right.
Terry Pluto: I mean, he did it. He did the Rockers for the seven years they were here. And it wasn’t, you know, he was in not flying in private planes or whatever. He was on the commercial flights with the women. And he just liked the way they played. Remember, Joe would do high school games at Firelands and places like that.
David Campbell: Mount Union football.
Terry Pluto: Mount Union football. He liked all that. But he told me, reminded him because he was there from the start in 93 of the early days with the Cavs when they were, you know, fighting to survive. And he just liked the environment. He liked the way everybody played. I mean, he was into it and he got me into it some because we’re. Joe and I are very close over the years and watched some of the games. So that’s why I just thought, well, Joe would be really happy about that, to see that And I think it’s great. The other thing that is a key point is we go back to Gilbert owning the Calves, but the Gilbert organization, they had the Cleveland Monsters. I believe they led the American Hockey League in attendance. And I know they set a franchise attendance record. They also own the Charge. You know, it’s moved into a renovated public hall, and they set a franchise record in attendance. My point is, they know how to run these. I would call them kind of boutique operations just because they’re not, you know, Major League baseball, basketball, whatever. They’re the second line. They’re. They’re still good, they’re viable, but it’s different. So you have to market, I think, a little differently. They know how to do it.
David Campbell: And they use those teams not only to, you know, the Charge doesn’t just develop basketball players, but they also use it to develop front office people and. And marketing people.
Terry Pluto: Right.
David Campbell: It’s like the entire operation, they’re looking for talented people to all across it. So it’s.
Terry Pluto: Yeah, they are. And they. They just have a knack for making these. These things work. And they’ll tell, you know, Cleveland’s a good town for it. They like it here. I mean, Joe was convinced that if they could just ride it out, that the WNBA would make it. But by 2003, when they folded, there were, I think Miami and Philadelphia also folded that year. Gordon Gunn had it. He couldn’t give the franchise away. They couldn’t move it. Nobody wanted it. It was really down in the dumps. And it isn’t just Caitlin Clark that brought them back. I mean, it had been rising for quite a while. Since then, just like women’s basketball on the college level has been rising and getting a lot of. And to me, any kind of these things that brings young women into watching some of this stuff, I just think is wonderful. It’s really good. And even better as they will have people operating it to know what they’re doing.
David Campbell: And so one more thing I did want to mention. The Cavs are going to be opening their new practice facility, which they’ve already started working on, which is right near Rocket Arena. And the new WNBA team, which is yet to be named, will be named later on. Rockers or something else. They’re gonna.
Terry Pluto: Hey, send us a name.
David Campbell: Yeah, let’s hear it.
Terry Pluto: Do you want to go retro? Which I would. I know Joe definitely would. I could speak for Joe from the grave on that one. He liked that. Or do you have another name?
David Campbell: Send it to us@sports cleveland.com and put Terry’s talking or Rocker’s name in the subject line. We’ll get those on an upcoming podcast. So. But yeah, the new, the new WNBA team will be moving into the Cavs practice facility out in Independence. So they’re basically going to be a double move there. So something to look forward to.
Terry Pluto: I mean, think about that, how they have these facilities set up for these teams, too. It’s incredible what they, what they’ve done. It’s first class all the way. And I know that it’s one of the things they try to do to help keep players. By the way, right now, yeah, the cows are being hurt by the second apron thing or whatever. But in the end, it still is better to have those kind of things when you’re in a team place like Cleveland than just go for free for all like the, like Major League Baseball. Because in the end you’re gonna, you’re not gonna be able to compete with la, Chicago, all the biggies. You just can’t. New York.
David Campbell: Yep. It’s the unique way baseball set up and there’s no sign of it changing anytime soon, which we’ve talked about. So. Okay, I think we’re done with basketball talk, huh? All right, let’s take a break. I keep thinking about what you said about Ty Jerome last week. Terry and I thought we might apply it to the guardians, who are fading quickly. And I thought I would ask if you’d like to see different players stay or go when as the trade deadline approaches at the end of this month in July. So we’ll get into that and more when we return on Terry’s Talk. Okay, we’re back on Terry’s Talk. And I did want to mention Terry’s newsletter. If you haven’t subscribed for it already, you should. More and more people are joining every week. Go to cleveland.com Pluto There’s a blue bar at the top. You can subscribe right there. And every Wednesday at noon you’ll get Terry’s inside thoughts. Great contract breakdown. You can ask questions. He does a Q and A in every week.
Terry Pluto: Really good read.
David Campbell: And it comes out every Wednesday at noon. So again, cleveland.com Pluto click on the blue bar at the top. So, all right, Terry, we’ve got some guardians emails. You want me to run through those first and then we can kind of go where we want from there. So. All right, our first one’s from Ed in Rochester Hills, Michigan. Ed says Sunday’s lineup against St. Louis. Four starters batting under.244 of your lineup. How can we expect anything better than the June results. Here’s one from Chuck McCartney and Avon Lake. Chuck says, I acknowledge that the Dolan’s are good owners who want to win, but they lack the money to make the required player investments that could potentially get us a much deserved World Series. Fans get frustrated when you trade a Gold Glove second baseman and then move his replacement to shortstop because the original shortstop can’t hit. We now have a platoon at second base because we did not want to pay a Gold Glover. So it’s like going to the playoffs. I like going to the playoffs, but would trade 10 years in the basement of the Central Division for one. World Series champions don’t get to do that.
Terry Pluto: It doesn’t work that way because only.
David Campbell: If only Stouffer had sold the team to the boss in 1973.
Terry Pluto: So there we go. Yeah, there’s no. But really I hear that and I don’t mean to make fun of Chuck, but the fact is that that’s like not on the menu. When they hand you the long like one of those Chinese menus with all the different things that could possibly happen. You will not find the item of 10 years in the basement to the World Series then back to the basement. You really. You don’t.
David Campbell: Real quickly like if. So he’s saying that if the. If the team had been sold to George Steinbrander in 1973, things would have been different. And I don’t know that they would have. Right. Like the reason the Yankees are good, it’s because they make a ton of money from their local TV deals and they’re in a huge, huge market and are the most storied franchise in baseball, maybe in all of sports. The Guardians just don’t have that kind of TV revenue. So like I don’t know if George Steinerbrenner would have been able to sign Dave Winfield and Reggie Jackson.
Terry Pluto: Well, he would have had more money than, you know, Nick Maletti did with his 47 owners. That’s who ended up getting the team this.
David Campbell: Right.
Terry Pluto: But.
David Campbell: New York was a new exercise. We should.
Terry Pluto: Right. Yeah. This is another thing on the menu that it isn’t. If George Steinbrenner buys Cleveland, it would have been better than Milletti having it and so on, but it would not have been what she saw because just they have access to so much revenue and everything else there. I mean, all right, suppose they kept for the heck of it. Suppose they kept him and S hitting 210. What do you got this year?
David Campbell: Would the record be different? Yeah, probably not.
Terry Pluto: Yeah, I mean I’d rather roll with Ortiz and see if he comes around. Yeah, I mean, that’s all right.
David Campbell: Well, thanks, Chuck, for that.
Terry Pluto: Let me know. Here’s. Here’s the thing and I, you know, I was not. I, I actually gritted my teeth to pick them to win 84 games just because after last year I came in at 72 and 90 and totally embarrassed myself. But I just, I did not have a good vibe about what they were doing. And maybe things will change, but for some of the reasons the readers bring up is the lineup looked, you know, looked very suspicious in terms of lack of talent to begin with. You know, you do trade Jimenez, who I we thought would hit 250. But I had to admit I was okay with the trade because of the contract. And a couple baseball people, not just Cleveland, really liked Ortiz. They thought it was. It was a pretty good move. The Naylor thing worried me, but I also knew Naylor at the end of the year was going to be gone. So basically they, they took the. It is trading Naylor for Carlos or Carlos Santana. Slade Ciccone, who I didn’t have any hope for at all when I looked at his stats. I think he had a six ERA in the majors last year or something. And he’s actually throwing pretty well. And they do get a draft pick, which I know they wanted. It’s a compensation round basically like a low first. So that was where they were coming from there and. But every guy, David that they counted on that they were quote, creating opportunity for be it Arias, Noel, you just. Angel Martinez, you know, none of them, even Schneemann. I keep talking about him. He’s hitting like 230. I mean, let’s not turn him into, you know, that he’s this great player either.
David Campbell: Manzardo even to some extent, yes.
Terry Pluto: Manzaro had got off to a great start and he’s really, really struggle. So the only guys you go back to are your, you know, your kind of, your core, your core three, you know, Jose and you have Quan and Santana to a lesser extent. That’s been it.
David Campbell: I think what Chuck is tapping into, and we have another email here from Bill Maris from Medina is, is just the way they’re losing. So let me read Bills, but I think this kind of way. Chuck frustrated too.
Terry Pluto: Yeah, please. Bill Maris says.
David Campbell: Greetings, guys. Thanks so much for all the coverage of our teams on Terry’s talking and on cleveland.com I truly enjoy all of it, especially your dialogue about the Guardians. Thanks, Bill. We appreciate that. That being said, the Guards record during this June unfortunately reminds me of years past when with teams we would refer to it as the June swoon. An example might be the 87 tribe who had an all time worst June record of 8 and 20 with an eventual ending record of 61 and 101. About this time during one of those seasons we would say how about those Browns? Isn’t training camp starting soon? Somehow this season is starting to feel like it is moving in the same direction. With a June record of 19, 9 and 16. So many errors. What happened to the guards who played clean baseball and ran in the top five in team defense plus unfortunately a bullpen that may be showing the wear and tear after overuse last season and no doubt 2.9 runs per game on offense doesn’t cut it. This season has to be testing. Manager Stevens votes talent and leadership. A players team meeting meeting didn’t seem to make a difference. What changes would you make to in essence get back to clean baseball? Errors and sloppy play don’t make fans want to go buy tickets. What are your thoughts? Thanks for all you do. Thanks for that Bill.
Terry Pluto: I appreciate you writing it and every everybody Chuck’s been out. You guys are on the money on the main the main thing. The main thing is they’re both you know I called them blah about three weeks ago. They didn’t that by the way now that’s that’s a compliment compared to how they’re playing. I know they weren’t thrilled about that down at the ball yard but you know play better that you said blah. I called him blah. Yeah. Just blah. You know who wants to be blah. But that’s what they were. They were blah. You know because they went through. They didn’t that and I was trying to explain also what vote meant when he talked about a lack of identity. Your identity is you know from a good point of view what do you do well and at that point they weren’t doing anything particularly well because to to the point there the defense which was top three is the last ratings I saw were had them like 17th out of 30 and I’m sure that things dropping too as it goes along and then you turn around and you can’t score. The bullpen was elite is okay actually the starting pitching is the only thing is a little bit better than a year ago and offensively they’re horrible. So it’s blah’s a compliment and I don’t really see how they snap out of this other than sometimes teams just snap out of it.
David Campbell: Yeah well I kind of I’m Kind of with Ed from Rochester Hills, like how can we expect anything better? Right. So. So right now they’re 40 and 42. They’re 11 and a half games out behind Detroit and they’re three games out in the wild card. And I know Stephen Vogt is trying to keep things positive and say, hey listen, this isn’t the end of September. We’re in this. We’re three games out of a playoff spot. But this team as it’s built, like if you make the. If you make the playoffs, it’s a wild card. Like then what? Like. Right. Like this team isn’t going to the alcs. The way it’s built right now. Like there’s. There’s no way. So.
Terry Pluto: Yeah, because it doesn’t have the one unique thing. You know, last year they had the bullpen. That was a really unique thing that made them win.
David Campbell: Like a superpower people call it. Right.
Terry Pluto: Yeah. What. What is your thing that you really do well and they don’t have that. Maybe it. And by. We talked a couple weeks ago. The Tigers are floundering at this point. And then in August is when they went to the. We don’t need no stinking starters but Derek Scuba. We’ll just relieve with everybody and bang. It just. They started pitching better and their hitting came around and they made the playoffs and they knocked off. I forgot it was Baltimore. Whoever it was in the first round got a chance to play Cleveland. So these things do happen. The other thing that, I mean to me the only thing that could bail these guys out this year, you bring up Burrito fairly soon after a couple of weeks in Triple A, you bring up the water, they get hot. Maybe somebody else. Parker. Parker Messick is a really good pitcher down and down there. There may be somebody else. And the kids catch fire and light up the team. That would be it. But I don’t. That’s. I have no other ideas because look, they’re not going to turn around and make three huge trades for high priced players. They’re not going to do that.
David Campbell: Yeah. So with the trade deadline on July 31st. So why don’t we run through this Terry, guys that you would be to apply your tide your own thing from last week. You’re fine if they stay or go. Right. If the guardians can get some good. And what they’d be looking for is somebody young with team control that can be good here for a few years. Right. That’s kind of the formula. There’s nobody in the starting rotation that kind of would be leaving. Who’s healthy. Right.
Terry Pluto: Yeah. Because it’s hard to find starters. That’s it. Right.
David Campbell: Okay.
Terry Pluto: And I. I mean I got an email from what about trading Bieber. I mean Beavers, he’s got a pitcher in a minor league game. I mean that and he’s. No, you’re not trading him. You know and you’re not trading by B and you’re not by these disappointed me son. By the way with all these home runs it. I’m not sure exactly what’s going on there but that in Ortiz and Ciccone are developing and Allen’s up and down. I guess I mentioned Parker Messick. I. I would be surprised if they bring him up, put him in a rotation for somebody or other maybe Logan Allen or. But there isn’t anything there that. I mean you could trade by me.
David Campbell: For a whole year. There’s not a fit there of value with believing that the Guardians wouldn’t want to give up all. Let’s move to the bullpen then. Class A is a hard no. Right? We talked about this a couple weeks ago.
Terry Pluto: Yeah, I went through it. I still think so. Because of the contract.
David Campbell: Okay.
Terry Pluto: If somebody absolutely blows you away, then you might do it because this contract I think is 4.6 this year, 4.8 next year, and then a bunch of team options for 10 million. It’s like one. I think Paul Seawall makes more money than. Than Costa does this year. So.
David Campbell: That’s true.
Terry Pluto: It doesn’t make a whole lot.
David Campbell: 4.9.
Terry Pluto: Yeah. That make a lot of sense to do that. Okay.
David Campbell: So Jacob Junas is somebody that might.
Terry Pluto: Somebody might want him. Yeah.
David Campbell: Yeah. 32. He’s making 4.5 and he’s a free agent after this season. And he could help. But he could help somebody’s bull.
Terry Pluto: Yeah. Junis like Wayne Thomas.
David Campbell: All right. So I’m just doing the bullpen right now. So that’s like everybody else. The Guardians have control over all these other guys and I. You know, unless they. There’s nobody who screams out to be traded. Right. So.
Terry Pluto: Yeah.
David Campbell: All right. Carlos Santana as we go to the position players free agent after this season making 12 million.
Terry Pluto: I mean he’s the most likely to go. Yeah. Because you could turn around if you want to bring up Cafe as he could play first and then Zardo could. DH Missardo could play some first base. I wish we could say boy, David Fry is really hitting and got to get him more advanced but that he looks hopeless to me. My guess is he came back from the Tommy John too early. Do I know this for a fact? No, but just the numbers scream there’s something wrong. And he’s been a pretty good good to really good player, depending upon what year, but he’s certainly never been like, 152 or whatever it was he’s hitting. And so that’s why Carlos is a natural one to be traded. And there would be a market for him for at least a rental for somebody.
David Campbell: Yeah, I would say so. And then the only other guy, and you just mentioned him, is Lane Thomas, who’s making 7.8 and also is a free agent. So, like, there’s really nobod.
Terry Pluto: He’s not real heavy, but he can’t even hit as white as it is. All right, we want to know, you have your numbers or what does he weigh versus his batting average? What do you say? Okay, I got it, Thomas. All right, well, then you know the answer.
David Campbell: I do.
Terry Pluto: Give us.
David Campbell: So he’s batting 168 and he weighs 195.
Terry Pluto: He’s not even close to hitting his weight, and he’s not that heavy. We’re not talking about a defensive lineman away. 330.
David Campbell: So he’s another candidate. Which are Guardians Coverage team of Paul Owens and Joe Inoga. They’ve been kicking that around, too. But is there anybody else that you think you could see leaving or you wouldn’t mind seeing leaving? I don’t know. Nolan Jones is under team control for another few years, but, like, I don’t know. Again, there’s got to be value here for the people you’re trading with, right?
Terry Pluto: I mean, you have to pretend you’re the other team and ask yourself, which of these guys would you like? I would love Stephen Kwan. You know, I mean, you start doing that team control for a couple years, all that, you know, Jose. You can never trade Jose. I mean, the stadium would fall over, and those people, you know, you. I mean, they have a problem at catcher. We just keep waiting and waiting for Bull Neyor. But Neymar is another one. I’m sure that’s not hitting his weight either. That’s an old thing that my dad used to say. Guy can’t even hit his weight. I mean, the bad thing about me at Benedictine, seriously, I was a senior, I weighed like 122, and I barely hit my weight.
David Campbell: But you did, though.
Terry Pluto: I did. 232. I just barely. I finished strong to get over the 200 line and bolt it to 232.
David Campbell: Nice.
Terry Pluto: And always helps when your best friend is the official score for the team.
David Campbell: Yeah, he’s a little dribbler through the.
Terry Pluto: Three or three or four. Yeah. But that they kind of, like, went to second base and it’s too late. It’s a hit. We did not. Not a sacrifice. Now I give him a single.
David Campbell: All right. The Guardians are playing in Wrigley Field tonight, tomorrow and Thursday. We’re taping this on Tuesday afternoon.
Terry Pluto: David. All right, I’ll be. Stop here. Do you have any idea, seriously, do you have any ideas on what you would do?
David Campbell: No, no. But I think it’s time to start bringing up some of these young guys and just letting them get a taste of the major leagues. Even if you have to send them back down, as you’ve Talked about many times, 3, 85% of guys go back down. Like, what’s to lose at this point? Something’s got to change. You got to shake something up.
Terry Pluto: And.
David Campbell: I get it. Like, Chris Antonetti is. He hears the fans clamoring for moves from the Miners, but he’s got to think about what this is going to look like next year and the year after and the year after also. And I don’t want to bring a guy up too early and just ruin his confidence and make him think he can at major league pitching. So I get that. But, like, something’s got to change. The vibe, the. The roster, the lineup. Something’s got to give here.
Terry Pluto: It was interesting where he said to. I know I was interrupting you, but to undiluter, because I want to get that in there. I was thinking he mentioned it until a week or so ago. Delater’s body was hurting when he played more than three or four times a week from that surgery. I guess he came back quick from probably, like, every surgery Delater has, it’s more serious than you think when they had. When he has it. And so this double hernia or whatever, this hernia surgery he had, or sports hernia, whatever, was pretty serious and late in spring training, and it just wiped him out. So he’s just getting stronger now.
David Campbell: And I get it, Terry. Like, the Guardians aren’t sitting downtown like, oh, you know, we just don’t want to bring these guys. Like, they monitor how fast these guys run after fly balls. They monitor how fast they get to first base. They monitor exit velocity and. And what kind of. They’re watching everything that these guys do. They know them intimately, and if they don’t bring them up, they have their reasons. So I get that it’s hard for fans, but, you know, there’s just times when you got to change things up A little bit.
Terry Pluto: It’s July. It’s time to do something. If you think even an outside shot and you don’t want to make a big roster move for, you know, bringing extra money. Well, the farm system is what your team is mostly all about anyway, so bring them up and take a look. I mean, I don’t know when we’re going to see Bazana again. I’m not saying he’s not going to play, but he had. I heard it was like eight to 12 weeks with that oblique injury and that was a month.
David Campbell: You guys had this in the past and it takes a long time to come back from it. So. All right, so guardians in Chicago then. They’re home this weekend against the Tigers and we will see what happens if they’re going to shake things up or just ride this out. So any other baseball. I think that’s it. We can talk, we can talk about Larry Doby later. I know you have a book you wanted to mention. Right. So we can talk about Larry Doby later. So. All right. The Browns. Terry, you had a headline the other day over the weekend about a column about the Browns, but it was a non QB zone.
Terry Pluto: Yes.
David Campbell: But training camp is starting here in about three weeks and you’ve been hearing some things about some guys who are not quarterbacks. If you want to run through some of that and kind of what the.
Terry Pluto: Highlights, I mean, the big one that’s really. They’re excited about is help me get the guys and say the guy. Yeah, because it’s not Schlesinger, it’s Schlesinger from ucla. Middle linebacker. They were raving to me about his ability to, you know, grasp the kind of stuff they want done on offense. Remember this guy, I think led the nation in tackles or something at ucla. His speed, his ability in the past game. He may not open the season as the guy that has the green dot or whatever in the helmet, but they think he is absolutely equipped to do it. They are thrilled with. I mean, basically the guys they brought in like Hannon Fannin, they’re really happy with. Remember, no quarterback discussion this time. So Fannin, the tight end, they like his hands and they’re really anxious because he had all these yards after the catch stats at Bowling Green and also against some of the big time schools. They play too, and you can’t tell much of that here, but they were just excited about him. Sampson, they’re. They, they like his potential as a pass catcher too. Well, as a running back. I think they’ll end up using in receiving situations, from what I heard, put them in the slot, all kinds of stuff and junkins looks like what they think they got. So they’re, they’re, they’re happy about those guys. And this is the thing, you know, Andrew Barry needs to nail these picks for all the stuff about quarterbacks. I mean, if you let Nick Chubb go and granted there’s a lot of reasons for that. You’ve got to come up with a real running attack to make this thing work for Stefanski. And I mean, I’ve had heard people say, well, you know what this year is all about. It’s just about going through these rookie, these uncourterbacks and finding a quarterback. And you know what that would be all about. If you’re Stefanski and Barry getting fired that way, you’re gonna. Yeah, you’re gonna play it that way. I’ve watched that and so had the Browns fans. You’ve watched Kaiser and you know, the whole rookie quarterback room remember that. Kaiser and I can’t remember who the heck else that was that year where they had Cody Kessler. I mean, they had three guys who hadn’t won an NFL game and say, here we go. And they didn’t win an NFL game with that group. So you need to show something. And it also is just unwise to roll quarterbacks out. When your first six games are against teams that have a combined record of rookie quarterbacks, a combined of 71 and 41. You just. It’s dumb, stupid. Don’t do it.
David Campbell: Yeah. And I don’t think they will.
Terry Pluto: No, it’s, it’s not what I’m hearing at all.
David Campbell: It’s trending toward one of the two veterans.
Terry Pluto: Yeah, it’s Picket or, or Flacco and.
David Campbell: And it’s going to be a lot of running and it’s going to be a lot of play action bootlegs and a lot of two tight ends and. Yeah, it’s going to be Kevin Stefanski.
Terry Pluto: Yeah.
David Campbell: Spin on it. Yeah.
Terry Pluto: I think the key thing will be like, like we talked about Schwesterger and some of these other guys on defense. Some of the younger players, you know, to step up and really play well. They brought, you know, Miles is back. You know, they need to have that unit play very close to what it did a couple of years ago.
David Campbell: One guy that I think in your column you mentioned was Cameron Thomas Terry. And I know a lot of fans like to hear you talk about minor leaguers coming up and what you think about them. But, but I was kind of Surprised to see his name. I think he was a third rounder by the Cardinals a few years ago out of San Diego State. And. And the Browns thought they were playing him in the wrong position, that they want him to be a hand and down guy, defensive end instead of a linebacker.
Terry Pluto: Right. They thought he was three, four. Right. And a guy. I think his name was Holly or something. He was a Canadian Canadian Football League.
David Campbell: Holly.
Terry Pluto: Yeah. Defensive tackle, led the Canadian Football League in sack. He’s impressed. And as a person, told me, look, we got to see all these guys with the pads and everything else, but how they looked, how they acted. They’re upbeat on that and they were trying to fit guys into Schwartz’s system. That’s why they like this Cameron Johnson. They think, okay, you know, get it there. And you got Alex Wright. They’re. They’re just hoping that, I mean, Schlesinger is a big deal for them because they don’t have J. Okay. And he was the first pick of the second round. So that’s just basically like a low first rounder. And you had a lot of guys to pick from there, and they picked him.
David Campbell: Yeah. And Schlesinger, like, just from seeing him on the field, like, I’m not saying he’s going to be J. Okay. But they play the same way. But I think that Schlesinger’s ball skills might even be better than J. Okay. In terms of knocking down passes and getting to footballs that are in the air. I think he might even turn out to have a little bit better that than J.
Terry Pluto: Okay.
David Campbell: Did. So. Yeah, we’ll see. It’s going to be interesting to watch him grow into that position. And like you were saying how much responsibility they give him as the thing goes along.
Terry Pluto: Yeah, they really. They’re very high on him. And I mean, in the end, you know, they didn’t trade Denzel or whatever. He’s back. You know, Garrett re signed. It is fun to watch the Steelers having all kind of trouble with TJ Watt, and I think Hutchinson with the Bengals. Isn’t he still holding out or something?
David Campbell: Oh, Hendrickson.
Terry Pluto: Excuse me.
David Campbell: Yeah, yeah, he is. And again, like, I know a lot of Cleveland fans get upset times sometimes when teams don’t spend money, but if you look at what the Bengals do to their guys, like, it’s just always. They’re just trying to nickel. And that guy should have been signed already. I mean, he makes about half of what Miles Garrett is making.
Terry Pluto: Yeah.
David Campbell: And he’s always top five in sacks and.
Terry Pluto: Yeah.
David Campbell: So anyway, in the end.
Terry Pluto: For all the stuff about Miles, other than he missed a couple of voluntary minicamp sessions. That’s it. That’s it.
David Campbell: Yeah. But an NFL player doesn’t have many tools to go to when they want a new contract or want a race. And this is what has to be done.
Terry Pluto: Miles made up. I mean, Miles made a bunch of noise. In the end, the Cavs rolled their eyes. I mean, excuse me. The Browns rolled their eyes knowing that money talks. And it talked. And right now, by the way, the assumption. Now, I’m sure some of the other teams, especially Pittsford, may be unhappy with the contract the Browns gave Miles, but it’s not fully guaranteed or anything. Hey, guys, you know, you don’t pay. What? Who you going to pay? I’m very serious. Who you going to pay?
David Campbell: Yeah, he deserves it.
Terry Pluto: Yeah.
David Campbell: Okay, so Browns against.
Terry Pluto: I’m hoping he will sign about December 12th.
David Campbell: The day they play the Browns.
Terry Pluto: I know. The day after. I think they’re done with all the Steelers games. I don’t have the schedule in front of me, but I don’t either. I just kind of picked that out there. What? You know, so well, we could look at it. Oh, no, no. Oh, it’s a tough. I. It would have to be December 29th. They play Fitzroy on the 28th at home. Yeah. And they play them on the. October 12th on the road. But yeah, I. The 29th. I feel like he comes back in time for 26.
David Campbell: Yeah. New year.
Terry Pluto: Yeah.
David Campbell: Yeah. All right. Terry, you’ve had a couple of really interesting faith in ucoms the last week about how taking care of older people who maybe can’t drive anymore and the whole negotiation and process that happens to take away their car keys when they’re too, you know, it’s too dangerous to have them on the road sometimes if they can’t handle the skills of driving. And it was kind of a two part thing. One was you writing about it, and then you got the second part. You got some response from a lot of people about things they’ve tried. And it’s a really interesting topic because it’s so. It’s so essential to people to have independence. And when they lose that, it’s hard. Talk about those columns and kind of what you learned from it.
Terry Pluto: One thing I wished, in fact, if somebody does want to write in, if you were on the other end of this and they took your keys away, what you went through, please, please write me and write David or whatever. I want to hear what that was like because I tried to think about what that would be. But it’s just like. I mean, sometimes I. Because I work from home and, you know, writing. You sort of, kind of. I lock myself in my office. I write these stories. And I was like, I gotta just go to the post office and get out of here for a little bit. You know, stop at the store just to get. And you could just do it. I mean, I got a car, I can go. But if you’re. Because likely if you’re. They’re taking your keys away, you’re already not working. So in other words, you’re not getting out to see other people for working. And you’re just dependent upon people to do that. I mean, our friend Gloria, who’s saying in her jail ministry she couldn’t drive for some health reasons in NASA, Roberta and I and another friend. Friend or two were always taking her places. And she would just say how she felt so bad always having to ask for a ride or whatever. And I mean, you could take the bus, but I mean, the truth is, depending upon where you live or whatever, even if you’re younger, I mean, riding the bus through certain areas, it’s just not a lot. It’s not safe. I’ll just say it.
David Campbell: Well, plus, you have to stand out in the weather.
Terry Pluto: The weather, everything. Yeah. So you lose so much. But it’s. But the flip side is if you see, like one guy wrote, you know, mom, instead of putting the car in reverse, just put it into drive and almost like drove through the house. I mean, you know, that kind of thing. So trying to figure out how to do this, you know, can we get the doctor to pull the keys? You know, and then also people getting that call from. Oh, I just want you to know that your father, we found him at this gas station and he doesn’t really know how to get home, you know, so difficult. Yeah, it is. And then, so, I mean, one time they just. It was an older car that the. The father was driving. And so they just went and like, ripped all the wires out of the battery and everything else. They just. They disabled the car. They broke the car and said, dad, it doesn’t work and you don’t have enough money. One guy, they took his keys and he went. He got a friend of his, they drove to a used car a lot. He bought another car. Yeah, I mean, they’re funny, but it’s sad. And, And. But it’s just a. You know, I would say probably, I bet one out of five people listening to this right now may have been in that situation of having to deal with. And then when do you do it? How bad does it have to be? You know, that kind of stuff. So that was.
David Campbell: Yeah, I thought some of the interesting responses you got were included. People would go to the doctor and the doctor would say, listen, you can’t drive anymore. And a lot of times when the person would hear that from a doctor.
Terry Pluto: Yes.
David Campbell: That meant more to them. And I thought that was a really good strategy.
Terry Pluto: Yeah.
David Campbell: And sometimes it’s just true. Like, you know, the doctor is. The doctor’s job is to look out for your health and wellness. And if you shouldn’t be driving and the doctor says that, then that is a legitimate, you know, person that you respect telling you that, and you should listen. Right.
Terry Pluto: So Cleveland Clinic has, I guess, a program, too, where they could kind of check you out cognitively or. Because the problem is, as you get older, basically it’s one last one loss after another. You know, loss of mobility, loss of friends, loss of, I would say, just simply power over your own life.
David Campbell: And it’s a big step.
Terry Pluto: And, yeah, the car thing is really bad.
David Campbell: I am hoping, Terry, that. And this might help with this, is that we’re seeing more and more autonomous vehicles experience.
Terry Pluto: That’d be interesting to see how that goes. Yeah.
David Campbell: And it would really be helpful for people who can’t get out of the house or need to go somewhere and don’t have somebody to bring them. Like, you just get an app, you hit a button or whatever, and a car shows up, you get in, and it brings you wherever you want to go. There’s no. There’s nobody in there. It just kind of brings you. Drops you off, and then you take one back home. I think that might help people in terms of feeling like they need to drive to be independent. This might help that.
Terry Pluto: So, I mean, the fact is, as the age of. The average age of living goes up, then the cognitive problems are more prevalent, all that stuff. But I wanted to bring that because I had not read anything much. There was even not a whole lot online about it, you know, when I was doing this, and it came from a friend of mine, I get. I keep emails from people that write about different things. You know, I call it the faith. You know, my faith box. And just when I’m kind of stuck. And my friend Pauletta. Pauletta sent me one, and she was the one I wrote about a few years ago. It had a stroke and helped build her memory back by memorizing every Brown’s name and number. She still does that. And she’s also like one of these kind of life coach peoples really bounced back. But she wrote about the agony she went through with her mom and the keys and that. And I thought, oh, you know, she just said, this is something, you know, you don’t hear about. So I kept that. And then I called her and interviewed her on that. And then I said, all right. Because every time I mentioned it to somebody, they either said, oh, yeah, I went through that, or I had a friend who went through that, you know, that thing. So I realized it was a topic that needed to go out there. So I did two parts of it.
David Campbell: Those columns definitely worth checking out because like you said, Terry, if you haven’t dealt with it already, you will.
Terry Pluto: Probably will. Yeah.
David Campbell: Yeah. All right. Well, it’s Fourth of July weekend, and July 5th is an important anniversary in the legend of Cleveland sports. That is the day that Larry Doby joined the Indians and crossed the color barrier in the American League. And I know you’ve been working on something for the weekend, too, but you’re also reading a book, I think you said.
Terry Pluto: Yeah, first of all, it’s called Our Team, and it’s really good. I think Epling is the guy’s last name. I will say that. Here’s the best compliment I can give. It’s a Cleveland sports book I wish I had written. It was a great story of. It wasn’t just about Dobie coming back, because what he did, he picked four characters. He picked up Vilvec, Larry Dobie, Satchel Page and Bob Feller kind of bought baseball for. Through the World War II. Then after, because it was booming in Cleveland, they go to the World Series and how it, you know, how they interacted, all this stuff. I mean, you know, Feller was. Sometimes people thought he had iffy racial attitudes, but yet he and Satchel Paige were close and they barnstorm in the off season. You know, Feller brought a lot of the Negro League stars together to play the white players in these. We don’t have barnstorming now, but after the regular season is over, these guys go around the country pointing these small towns and make money, which also gave those guys, they had a feeling, a Satchel Page and Josh Gibson and some of these guys could play. They knew it. You know, Veck was looking for a chance to. My story I’m working on, it’s a long one, opens with vec, who in 1942 was trying to buy the Philadelphia Phillies and made the mistake of telling the commissioner, potential Judge Landis, that he was thinking of really bringing in Several of these players from the Negro Leagues. Well, the judge was not exactly going to win the Martin Luther King Award. And, you know, there was never any kiss. Well, there’s no formal rule against it. But all of a sudden, when Vic’s thing came up for a vote, he didn’t have enough votes to get the Phillies and selling to somebody else. But his plan, this is 1942, during the war, was to go in and grab as many of these guys as he would say he could get. And he, because he had watched, he talked about watching Dizzy Dean duel Satchel Page and some Barnstorm game in 1937, Dizzy D’s in the hall of Fame. It was like 2 to 1. I think they both pitched like 11 innings or something. You know, through 9,000 pitches. It was a different ball game. But he said, I’m watching these guys going, these guys can play. You know. Yeah, they maybe they had, quote, a little bit of social justice. Branch, Ricky, too, who broke the color barrier with the Dodgers. But they also, like what. They’re baseball guys. Let’s. Let’s get some talent in here. But. So the difference is. And the thing I’m going to hit on this story with some others is I remember talking to Bill Veck once. I’m going to mention when I talked to. When I was a young, young writer, I was still in college, talked to Larry Dobie some. I can’t find the story. I think I wrote it for a paper called the Sports Beat, which was like a sports monthly or weekly around. I used to sell stuff to them. And Dobie just said to me, he said, they talk about Jackie Robinson. Why was it any easier for me than him? And no, actually, the answer, it was harder. Here’s why. Because Branch Rickey, who was a planner, he brought in Jackie Robinson in the 1946 season, had him play Triple A ball, where he hit.342 in Montreal. Then he took him to spring training, and he had a big spring training. So even if the guys didn’t want to play with an African American, they looked at the guy could play. There was no question. Ricky was a planter. Bill Veeck was a dreamer. Bill Veckle just, you know, he always had schemes. Hey, let’s just have fireworks. Let’s. Let’s have a dwarf battle, whatever it is, you know. Well, it’s the middle of the 47 season. Robinson is already on his way to being rookie of the Year with the Brooklyn Dodgers. And Bill’s thinking, well, there’s going to be other black players coming. And I’M going to go get one now. And he had targeted Larry Dobie. They bring him in the middle of the season. He plays on July 4, the first game with doubleheader. They slap him on a train. He goes from Newark to Chicago to join the Tribe playing the White Sox. And it’s like. It’s just dazzling. I’m knowing the players don’t even know who he is. No, but players don’t know who he is, Bill. Lou Boudreau didn’t find out like the day before that this is vex plan. And he goes, well, Bill, what does he play? Well, he plays second and short, and I play short. And our second baseman is an all star, Joe Gordon. This is the total opposite. Meanwhile, another big thing is Jackie Robbins is 28 when he comes in. Larry Dobie’s 23. Scared to death. I found. I dug up a bunch of clippings. He was scared in this. And it was a disaster that first year. I think he went 6 for 35, hardly played. The players were very, very upset by this. Not simply because of the racial element. It’s like he drops out of nowhere and he’s taking somebody’s job. That’s how they looked at it. And then you look the little bit he does play, he doesn’t look good at all. Now then, the next spring, what they did. This is now Bill Veck, to his credit, realize that first of all, oh, told Boudreaux I think he’d be really good in the outfield. Has he played the outfield? No. I mean, so another like, well, let’s just do it now and try it. But what they did in the spring of 1948 is they brought him spring training to him being out there. And then they brought in Tris speaker, who was a great center fielder on the 1920 Indians, a hall of Famer. And Tris, who was a. Some people said he had some iffy kind of racial attitudes. But Hal Lebowitz, who was around then, watched this. And Hal was, by the way, close to Satchel Page. He goes. Wrote a book with Satchel Page. He said, I’m watching this. And he goes, those guys are like. This was like teacher and son. I mean, they were very tight. And Tris made him into a center field, and Doby just went into it. Of course, he went on to a Hall of Fame career. By the way, the player that he first wanted to bring in, Veck, was Satchel Page. But he was afraid if he brought him in. Everybody says just another gimmick or whatever. Well, he could be 40, he could be 50, he could be whatever he want. Actually, they dug up his thing. He would have been 40 if they brought him in. So they did bring him in the middle of the 48 season. He has an ERA of like 2.7. You know, it’s an amazing collection. And Feller is kind of coming towards the end of his career after World War II where he wasn’t quite as good. If you watch, he had a good. Couple good years and got hurt. And he’s kind to try to actually to. To make back his income that he had lost because Bob was always, you know, he always had a side hustle, as they say now going. And so it’s fascinating. It’s a great book. And I’ve written this thing about Dobie before and the lack of preparation or whatever. I think the first time was like in the 90s, but I really believe I’m. The last few years, I almost write some version of this every year. He’s forgotten. He’s absolutely forgotten. And I will maintain he was set up far more to fail than Jackie Robinson. And what he did is just as significant, if not more so than Jackie, because had he failed, number two guy failed, then you would have got into all the, you know, all the racial stereotypes that have come out.
David Campbell: So I do have the name of the book, Terry. It’s called Our Team the Epic Story of Four Men and the World Series that Changed Baseball. And it’s by Luke Epplin, as you mentioned, his last name is Epplin, if you want to check that out. Wherever you get your books. All right, Terry. We’ve been asking fans to write in their memories of Tom Hamilton as he is going to be honored in Cooperstown coming up later this month, the 25th, 26th, 27th in Cooperstown. And we got a great story here from Max Torum, longtime listener. And Max says, hey, David and Terry. I was listening to last week’s episode and I have a Tom Hamilton story story from my favorite baseball game I’ve ever been to. My birthday is in mid August, and in 2016, my dad and I celebrated by driving up to Cleveland to catch a weekend series against the Blue Jays. Lucky for me, one of the games we went to was the legendary Tyler Naquin inside the park walk off home run game. The Tribe was down two to one in the bottom of the ninth as Roberto Osuna, one of the league’s top closers that year, came in to finish the job. But Jose Ramirez had other plans and wanted to give me a little birthday present. He was hitless that night, but one swing of the bat caused an eruption from the crowd. And just like that, the game was tied up. 2, 2. Now Tyler Naquin steps into the batter’s box and Progressive Field is rockin’ when he hit the ball, we all thought it was a homer, including Naquin, who was lightly trotting to first base. Then the ball hits off the top of the wall and Naquin takes off. Sure enough, he makes it home in time. And the stadium got so loud I thought it might cause a mini earthquake. Everyone was jumping up and down, giving hugs and high fives to random strangers, or silent with their jaws on their the floor in pure disbelief. I can say with confidence that I’ll never go to a better baseball game in my life unless it’s when the Guardians win the World Series. So what does this have to do with Tom Hamilton? I remember my one regret being that I couldn’t hear his radio call of this play. So I kept cycling between social media platforms until I found a post with his call. I think we listened to it about 10 times on the drive home and another 10 times when we got back. It’s an absolute classic from Hammy, and thanks to him, I can still relive that night whenever I to want want. Between Hammy, Jim Donovan, Fred McLeod and many others, Cleveland has been blessed with the greatest sports commentators of all time. I’m so glad we’ve gotten to experience their commentary. Anyways, there’s the best Tom Hamilton story I’ve got. Thank you David and Terry for putting on an amazing show week in and week out. All the best, Max Torham. Thanks for that, Max.
Terry Pluto: Yeah, Tyler, Hike. Nick was trying to become a pitcher down and he’s down in Goodyear. I don’t know how that’s going. A couple times I saw box score lines. They weren’t real good, but that wouldn’t be a surprise. I think he’s had some control problems, but he’s always had a really good arm. I think he’s left handed. So there you go. He’s breathing, he’s left handed, has a good arm. That could be a five year career at minimum.
David Campbell: Yeah, we’ll definitely have to keep an eye on the Tyler and Aquin pitching saga, Terry, and see how that goes. So, all right, I think that’s going to do it, right?
Terry Pluto: I think that’s it.
David Campbell: Okay. Well, if you do have more Tom Hamilton stories or any other questions, comments or thoughts about the podcast, be sure to hit us@sportsleveland.com with an email. Just put Terry’s talking in the subject line. We’ll try and get it on an upcoming podcast. We are going to be off next week, but we hope you enjoy the Fourth of July. Be safe, have fun and we’ll talk to you next time on Terry’s Talk.
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