CLEVELAND, Ohio — In this episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast, host Ethan Sands and columnist Jimmy Watkins delve into the rumors surrounding LeBron James’ potential return to the Cleveland Cavaliers and explore various trade scenarios.
Takeaways:
LeBron James’ potential return to Cleveland is a hot topic.
Trade scenarios for LeBron involve significant roster changes.
The Cavs need to balance their current roster with future planning.
Injury management will be crucial for player performance.
Depth is essential for playoff success in the NBA.
Evan Mobley is a key player for the Cavs’ future.
Lonzo Ball’s role will be pivotal whether in the starting lineup or off the bench.
The Cavs are focused on creating their own identity without LeBron.
Player development is a long-term project for the Cavs.
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Transcript
NOTE: This transcript was generated by artificial intelligence and could contain misspellings and errors.
Ethan Sands
What up, Cavs Nation? I’m your host, Ethan Sands, and I’m back with another episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. And joining me today, you know him, you love him, but it’s not who you think it is. It’s the man, the myth, the legend, Watkins, cleveland.com’s columnist, and he’s coming to me with all of the preparations for 4th of July. Jimmy, what you got planned?
for the big day. What you got going?
Jimmy Watkins (00:38.894)
So I’ve been going the same Fourth of July cookout since I was 11 or something. My friend’s parents were, I don’t remember how it started. think it was the year, maybe the year they built a deck in their backyard. They always had a pool. They had the coolest house, the coolest amenities. They had a trampoline too, grown up. So we naturally gathered there all the time. And so it became a tradition and we’ve added things on the tradition. do a corn.
Cornhole tournament every year, a Kanjan tournament every year with partners drawn at random out of a hat. I have finished runner-up in both tournaments in recent years. We are keep bumping our heads on this glass ceiling. There’s a little 22 Celtics in this franchise. Just can’t seem to get over the hump, but confident that this year, this year could be the year.
just manifesting that my partner’s having a, whoever they may be, having a good pregame meal tonight and maybe get a good breakfast in them tomorrow morning. Because it’s an important day. It’s an important day beyond the history and all that. It’s cornhole and can jam tournament day. So that’s where my mind is.
Ethan Sands (01:59.657)
Love to hear it, love to hear it. And Jimmy, I know we got into a whole lot and for people that are wondering why we’re starting this off with this, when you listen to this podcast, it will be the 4th of July. So happy 4th to everybody tuning in on this fine Friday. But I do want to kind of get into some of the fireworks around the NBA. And Jimmy, I know...
that we touched on the Larry Nance Jr acquisition and a coming home as it is for a kid in Akron. But there are rumors of a potential other kid from Akron coming back to Cleveland. And we have some questions from our subtexters that get into that. And I wanted to start with that question today. So this question, which comes from
Ethan Sands (02:56.849)
Matt in Nashville, a fan for 50 years now, he says, happy fourth to all of you. Would you comment on the LeBron rumors? Would you ever like if he returned? Would Dan Gilbert be on board? Otherwise, I am curious if you could predict the starting five in rotation as of now. Lastly, did Ty Jerome go against Atkinson at some point? Is this one reason he wasn’t offered? Okay.
Matt had a lot of questions for us. wanted to read those off. Let’s start at the very top. Jimmy, the rumors of LeBron James coming back to Cleveland. What do you think? Should they trade away some key pieces to get him to come back? Should they wait for him to potentially be in a buyout, even though he just signed a new contract or signed into his player option? What do you think about the situation surrounding LeBron James as a
Jimmy Watkins (03:58.016)
So I do think that this is, this is not your typical LeBron power play with his franchise. He, for, I don’t remember what it is, like seven or eight contracts in a row. LeBron has done this dance where he opts out of his contract. Then does the, I don’t know, if you don’t push all your chips in for a championship, I might have to go looking somewhere else. And then he signs it. The teams always appease him because he’s freaking LeBron.
for most of his career has been the best player alive. And so he usually gets what he wants. They usually trade all the picks they can and everybody’s happy. LeBron’s happy at the very least. And if LeBron’s happy, team ownership and everybody else on the team is usually pretty happy. In this particular case, it seems to me that this is one of the first times, if not the first time that there’s been pushback on that with LeBron because the Lakers are in a unique position.
Now that they have Luke and Don Chichinto to say, Hey, we have someone in our, in our, on our roster that’s more important than you. So we’re focused on what that guy needs. But what that guy needs is a little bit different from what you need. LeBron’s at the stage of his career where every season should be in his mind should be all in because he didn’t have very many left. And so everything that you could do to possibly win the championship you should be doing for me right now, because I’m LeBron James. And again, most of the, most of his career that’s been true.
This time though, I the Lakers pushed back a little bit. think he’s mad about it. And I think that he’s, how likely is it that he moves teams? I don’t know. Cause this time he opted in. So he is under contract with the Lakers and they don’t like it would, think if he had his druthers and the Lakers don’t trade in his picks, by the way, I think there is an overlap middle ground here where the Lakers do what’s best for Luca and do what’s best for LeBron and you know, start moving some picks around.
some pieces on their team to improve the roster because as it stands, their roster is fine. You know, maybe a playoff, maybe win a playoff series level. Maybe that’s just not for the Luke and LeBron. They always have a puncher’s chance in any series that they’re in because they have those two guys, but that needs to be upgraded to be championship caliber. Obviously Luca wants to win championships as soon as possible too. So there’s middle ground there, but it does seem like.
Jimmy Watkins (06:25.25)
this is different. So I think we have a I say all that to say, I think we got a live one here. I do think it’s possible that this this marriage could go south enough where LeBron tries to force a trade or the Lakers are open to moving him something like that. Now that being said, it’s very complicated for the caps to make this move. They would have to shed several large salaries. I mean, unless you’re doing some crazy gymnastics with
We’re talking five, six, seven teams. You’re probably going to have to lose one of the core four, if not multiple pieces of the core four. My personal opinion is anything that anybody not named Donovan Mitchell or Evan Mobley is fair game in the LeBron trade because I do think he raises your ceiling in a major way. The Cavs are uniquely positioned to load manage him in the regular season. know they have.
regular season chops, Donovan and Evan can handle that. Whatever pieces would be left on their team after the trade would handle that, would be able to handle that. there, but there is, there’s a weird rub here that has surfaced the last couple of years that the Cavs would need to address if they were to acquire the run. Since they’ve had this new era, good team.
the best team that they’ve had, not LeBron since the Mark Price days. There’s been this sentiment of, even if you wanted to come back, would the Cavs even want him? And the Cavs even started saying things publicly last year, like, we’re trying to carve our own identity out without LeBron now. Of course, he’s done so much for this franchise, but we want to make our own way. And to that, I would say, you just need to swallow some pride.
and not care how you can’t, like not care so much about how your legacy is defined. Make sure it includes a championship. That’s, that’s what I would say. And I think it’s pretty clear to me that a Cavs team featuring LeBron, James Donovan, Mitchell and Evan Mobley, if it also features Darius Garland and or Jared Allen, I don’t think it could feature all five of those guys.
Jimmy Watkins (08:47.33)
I haven’t done all of the salary cap mechanisms on that, but I don’t think you would be able to keep all five of those guys. And I’m not sure you’d be able to either of Jarrett or Darius. It’s tricky. That being said, LeBron is, having LeBron is better than not having LeBron for the calves. And I think if he becomes available, they should absolutely go for it. It would be such a cool way for him to circle back.
his career and it would be, there would be crazy buzz around this team. And like, LeBron still an all NBA player. You have an all NBA wing. He would be immediately one of the best players in the East. Still today, LeBron is still like a top 10 ish player in the league. And if you particularly the way that like,
The way that he’s, it’s been so impressive the way he’s played with the Lakers last year. Last year when, when Luke came back, he was really impressive on defense. The effort he was expending on defense was really impressive because he kind of had to because the Lakers didn’t have a lot of good defensive pieces. but it’s been impressive what he’s been able to do statistically, but it’s also been impressive. The wind he still has the endurance, like his body’s still holding up pretty well in some of these long grueling regular seasons.
The Cavs will be able to mitigate the load that he has to carry in a major way. mean, Donovan’s a superstar in his prime, who frankly probably isn’t trying to surrender a ton of the offensive responsibility at this point in his career. Evan Mobley is an ascendant star who the Cavs are actively trying to get more involved in the offense every season.
I think it’s kind of a perfect setup and it would be, it would be emotionally, it would be hard. From a locker room perspective, it would be hard. And when LeBron shows up, because he’s LeBron, because he’s, he’s, he’s just so famous. He’s so, he’s one of these been famous since like 2002. And those people, I had this theory where like,
Jimmy Watkins (11:12.066)
You can only be so famous after the year like 2016, 17 or whatever because society has become so secularized and no one watches the same shows or listens to the same music. It’s all direct to consumer. You can make your own playlists and stuff like that. LeBron’s part of the monoculture. He’s one of the few monoliths left, one of the most famous people in the world. And the whole Cleveland Cavaliers world would revolve around LeBron again. That would be hard.
for certain members of the organization to digest, but it’s the best chance they have to win, in my opinion. So I say go get them. I’m sorry, that was long.
Ethan Sands (11:49.183)
No, that was great. I appreciate the in-depthness and it gave me some time to do my own research on the back end and trying to give you some more nuance when it comes to the trade conversations that are possible for LeBron James. There are multiple different insiders and decision makers that are trying to discuss what is the likelihood of LeBron James being traded back to Cleveland to win a championship, to chase a championship.
as one of the destinations. obviously the other destination that has been brought up is the New York Knicks, but obviously with Cleveland being who brought him into the team that brought LeBron into the league, being the kid from Akron, a lot of people want to see if it is possible. So one of the options that is a little bit less constructed right now is a deal that would consist of Darius Garland, Jared Allen, and Max Struce.
And of course, as you mentioned, it would have to be a three, four, maybe even five team deal. And then there is a more in depth breakdown by this guy. don’t know if you know who he is, Jimmy, but his name is Eric Proctor. Hold on. Sorry, Eric Pincus. And he’s an NBA insider and he went in depth on this trade. So I’m going to try and do my best to break it down how he has it written out. The Cleveland Cavaliers.
would receive LeBron James, Shaq Milton, Walker Kessler, Jaden Springer, the 2027 first round pick from the Jazz, 2029 first round pick from the Jazz, $16.47 million trade exception because they would be getting off of Deandre Hunter’s contract, and Ronnie James. The Lakers would be getting Deandre Hunter from the Cavs, Jordan Clarkson, KJ Martin, and another player.
from the jazz and the Lakers would also be getting in this deal, Jared.
Jimmy Watkins (13:45.39)
This I think this by the way, I just want to say a few of these a few of these pieces have moved since Eric put this trade together. So like Jordan Clarkson is on the next now wouldn’t be in trade. But can we not get caught up in that like ancillary pieces ancillary pieces salary filler. Continue with them.
Ethan Sands (13:58.687)
But also the other thing is I don’t know if all of these trades that have been proposed by Shams on Twitter for ex-formally trader have officially gone through right so potentially they could end up being signing trades or anything just just to throw a hypothetical out there
Jimmy Watkins (14:18.167)
I think Clarkson was a free agent. I think it was a free agent ad. But again, salary filler. Salary filler.
Ethan Sands (14:20.639)
Yes, you’re right about Clarkson. Right. You’re right about Clarkson. So let’s just get back to would you do this trade? And I’m going to keep going with getting into the Jazz now. The Jazz would do a whole bunch, would land Jock Landale from the Rockets and Darius Garlett from the Cavs. And the Rockets would receive the 2030 LA Clippers second round pick via the Jazz and
Again, this is another player who has now been acquired. Dorian Finney Smith from the Lakers via sign in trade. So it’s interesting to see what would be the Cavs roster at this point if they were to go through this trade, right? No Darius Garland, no Jared Allen, no Deandre Hunter. You then have a potential starting lineup of Donovan Mitchell, Max Struse, LeBron James, Evan Mobley.
and Walker Kessler with shake Milton, Jayden Springer, Jayden Springer, and Ronnie James coming off the bench alongside other players that you still have on the roster. Jimmy, as crazy as this trade sounds and as a hypothetical as it is now, as you mentioned with all of the different moves that have already been made, would you make this trade? Would you give up to key members of the core four to get LeBron?
Jimmy Watkins (15:48.922)
Absolutely. Absolutely, because the court court floor has shown me that they have a second round ceiling. I don’t know that’s gonna be the case forever, but I know that LeBron is a playoff ceiling razor. And here’s the other part of this, is that if you if you trade for LeBron, you get them for one, two years, three, if we’re really stretching it, and then you know what happens at the end of that? Boom, $50 million off your cap. Now your second April problems aren’t as big anymore.
And it’s like as currently constructed, the calves are gonna, I don’t know what exactly, like Donovan’s next extension is gonna be massive. Evan Mobley’s contract does it ages massive. Darius Garland’s next extension, or next contract, whether he signs it here or somewhere else, it’s gonna be huge. When Jared Allen’s next contract is still affordable, it’s a good contract, but it’s 30 million a year instead of 20 million a year. So like,
The rubber is going to meet the road at some point anyways. So you, I just think that it’s, you’re killing two birds with one stone. think you’re increasing your championship ceiling now. Obviously you have to be careful with LeBron because he’s old and fragile at this point. Even, mean, he’s still one of the more durable guys in the league, but he has had more minor injuries, minor plus, I guess you could say.
injuries in recent years, but I do think he raises your championship ceiling and then down the road, he gives you flexibility. So that’s, that’s a really, I don’t think there is another move in existence. At least not one I can think of off the top of my head that accomplishes both of those ends for the caps increases your championship probability now and gives you some wiggle room on the backend two, three years from now.
when your roster is going to get crazy expensive anyways. Again, there’s a lot of the Cavs are a private organization. They’re trying to create their own identity without LeBron. I respect that. I think it’s a worthy cause. If he’s on the market, you have to call. You have to.
Ethan Sands (18:02.823)
And I think it’s interesting, right? Because we talk about whether or not this is feasible, whether or not this is an option, whether or not the Cavs are going to put their name in the hat for LeBron James if he is unsatisfied or dissatisfied with his situation in LA. Or if he simply believes that the Lakers are not going to be able to win a championship while he’s there. Because I think every player wants to go out on the mountaintop, especially a player of his caliber.
someone who has been renowned as the best player of all time, you want to have the storybook ending. You don’t want to go out like MJ did. You don’t want to go out like Kobe did. You want to go out on top. And I think the conversation then becomes, is the Cavs in that situation the best option for him? Right? And that brings me back to the New York Knicks situation and what they would have to give up for him and all these things. So Jimmy,
When we talk about being able to retain Donovan Mitchell, being able to retain Evan Mobley in this deal, does it matter who else is on that roster to you if you have that big three? Because we’ve talked about the era of the big three kind of dying. But if you only need one, two years left, could it be worth it?
Jimmy Watkins (19:26.19)
It would be a significant test of this theory that we’ve the general basketball intelligence has been floating recently, which is that the playoffs are now more about depth than they’ve ever been. think that’s true, but it’s as true because of the way the CBA has limited star stacking as it is true because depth is just naturally becoming more important. I do worry, I would worry.
Jimmy Watkins (19:58.738)
about LeBron in a long playoff run. We haven’t seen him in that type of situation in a while. mean, the conference finals run that the Lakers made a couple of years ago where they got swept. We can count that, I guess, if you want. He held up okay throughout that run. But that would be my concern, LeBron in a long playoff run. And then who are you filling in the gaps with? mean,
Whatever’s left of the veteran minimum market you have your pick. It’s much like when LeBron went to Miami. You might be able to get some guys that would otherwise not be signing veteran minimums. Although at this stage of the game, that’s a harder thing to do because a lot of guys have signed their deals by now. could try to, at this point, mean, if LeBron’s on your team, you’re shooting for a championship.
Maybe throw some picks out there and try to get some cheaper guys on the, that you like on the back end of other, you’d have to get creative. I mean, you were taught, I forget the players that you named would all, that would also be like Walker Kessler. Okay. I like that. You still do your, your two bakes thing. James Springer is a big question mark for me. Like the guys that would, you would, Cavs as much as they’d be talking LeBron, part of those negotiations would be, okay, what kind of other rotations play rotation players can we get in this big web of a trade?
because we do need to actually feel the team here. Particularly once we talk, we’re talking championship here. We’re not just talking the East. Donovan Mitchell, Evan Mobley, and LeBron against the rest of what is the East right now. Yeah, I kind of don’t care who else is on the team. I think they’d make it through the East, again, assuming relative health. But in the finals, I think you’d need a few more pieces. You need a couple 3D guys. You need some playable depth.
some, some secondary ball handler types. I mean, if you can, if you can hang on to Alonzo in a deal like this, if you can hang on to guys like Sam Merrill, I mean, those are infinitely valuable pieces on a team, on a team like this where LeBron and Donovan can create so many shots for guys. so I do kind of care who’s on the team, but not enough to not do the trade.
Ethan Sands (22:18.783)
We talked a lot yesterday about the amount that Dan Gilbert is paying, obviously we’re going through the roster and how things might get reconstructed. I want to just go through the salaries of each of these key players for the 25-26 season. And Jimmy, before I looked at these numbers, I was like, yeah, these guys are millionaires. Dude, these prices are insane.
$394 million next year the same for Evan Mobley Darius Garland basically 39 and a half Deandre Hunter almost 23 and a half Jared Allen 20 million even Max Struz basically 16 million Lonzo Ball 10 million Sam Merrill around eight and a half Dean Wayne around six and a half Jaylin Tyson around three and a half Craig Porter jr around two million dollars right and this is still not including
the contract, the veteran minimum of Larry Nance Jr. This is not including the deal that is still yet to be made of the 14th roster player for this team. I just think it’s so interesting when you talk about what this team is capable of, what this team is already going to be able to do, even though we talked about the luxury tax hit that Dan Gilbert is going to have to pay and all these things. And I’m sorry for
the people who thought we were gonna get to all of their questions today, we kind of got into this LeBron James black hole as we do. And I wanted to just touch on the rotation in the roster that the cows have currently, because you can’t go away from what you already have if you don’t know what you have. And obviously the grass isn’t always greener. So just to get back to Matt’s original question about
predicting the starting five and rotation as of now for the Cleveland Cavaliers, I think we can do that when we also keep in mind what the Cavs are going to be missing to start the season, right? We have to obviously point out Darius Garland is still going to be rehabbing come training camp time. He will be doing some form of basketball activity, which means he could be doing.
Ethan Sands (24:42.077)
treadmill work, could be doing agility work, he could be doing anything, but turf toe surgery, which is basically what he got for his left big toe that he injured at the end of the regular season and re aggravated in game two of the Eastern Conference first round against Miami is going to hinder him until he is fully recovered, especially with how he plays game and all these things. That’s part of the reason that the Cavs went and got Lonzo ball because they know
that they needed a facilitator or ball handler, somebody to keep Donovan Mitchell off the ball as well. So if I had to start with my first starting lineup when it comes to this season, Lonzo Ball is my starting point guard. Obviously, it’s going to be a training camp, training camp bout, which I’m excited, which I’m excited to hear about between Lonzo, who’s experienced but hasn’t had a lot of experience in the NBA just because of his injury history.
Craig Porter Jr., who is in his third season in the NBA and trying to battle out to figure out where he’s going to be. Tyrese Proctor, a player that they drafted number 49 overall in a rare situation where you have the opportunity to fight for rotation minutes in your first year as a second rounder. And then Jalen Tyson, someone who was the main ball handler at Cal, having the opportunity to add into his arsenal of ball handling facilitation, all of those things.
Even though Jalen Tyson is more being used as a wing or a forward, rather than being used as a guard in the lineup that the Cavs would like to have him in with his 6 foot 6 size and his defensive acumen that continues to grow. So, if we had to go into the depth chart for the Cavs to start the season, here’s my starting five. Lonzo Ball at the 1, Donovan Mitchell at the 2,
Max Struffs at the three, Evan Mobley at the four, Jared Allen at the five. I think that’s what is going to happen. Do I think DeAndre Hunter should start in this scenario? I’m going to say no, just because of what we’ve talked about with Chris, what we talked about on this podcast about the need for the movement and the spacing. And I also think the second unit that I talked about on yesterday’s podcast is going to be extremely helpful when it comes to this roster. When you talk about a potential second unit,
Ethan Sands (27:03.343)
of Lonzo still at, or excuse me, Donovan at the one, Sam Merrill at the two, Lonzo Ball switching to the three and guarding the best perimeter player for the opposing team, Deandre Hunter at the four and Evan Mobley at the five, keeping the pairing of Donovan and Evan. That line up to me sounds nasty. You have the movement of Sam Merrill, have the defense of Donovan and Lonzo Donovan with even though being 6-3, having the wingspan, being beefy and strong enough.
to bang down low and being able to hang on the perimeter as well. And then obviously Evan Mobley, your defensive player of the year, managing the paint with six foot eight Deandre Hunter as his wing helper. Jimmy, tell me if I’m off or tell me if you think that’s a good start or how you would adjust those lineups.
Jimmy Watkins (27:53.23)
So I’m interested in a couple things. I think you mostly have the right idea. but the backup, the backup point guard battle, that’s where Tyrese Proctor and Craig Porter Jr. are going to be in direct competition, for the backup point guard minutes. I think that’s fascinating, particularly because, I mean, the Cavs, I want to say, I want to be careful about this because I feel like 60 % of second round picks drafted before like the bottom five.
their GMs go up there and say, this is crazy that he fell this far. We had a first round grade on him. And it’s like, uh huh. Yeah, sure. I believe that the Tyrese Proctor like pre-drafts, like the draft boards that I trust, I was looking at, he was like high second round on a lot of those boards. So I buy it. I buy it. And I think they go down a they, it’s not just Tyrese Proctor Craig Porter Jr. is not just the backup point guard.
battle at beginning of the season. It’s Lonzo Ball insurance battle in case we talked yesterday a lot about Lonzo Ball’s injury history. It needs to be addressed. Like if Lonzo goes down in the playoffs, one of you dudes got to soak up those minutes a little bit. And I found this stat the other day because again, I was thinking about is Tyrese Proctor really going to be because again, if you say you have a first round grade on this guy, to me, that suggests that they kind of drafted him over Craig Porter Jr.
If like, if Tyrese Proctor was the, you know, the 25th pick and the NBA draft, I’d be like, Craig Porter Jr. I don’t know about how much he’s going to play next year. Right. So from that, from that vantage point, I’m thinking about, okay, but in the playoffs, you can play a second round pick in the playoffs. Cause by the way, he did, whatever your grade was, he did fall to 49. There were a bunch of teams, every team in the league had a chance to draft this guy and didn’t, or most, don’t know who, whoever didn’t, maybe the Lakers are one of the teams that didn’t have a pick until like the fifties.
And then even they traded up so they could have, um, a lot of teams didn’t draft him. It’s, think a lot of it was a physicality concern, defense concern. had three years in college. That’s still, know, that’s college weight rooms tend to beef you up. Didn’t happen as fast for Tyrese partner. That might be, I’m just, I’m just hypothesizing on that one. Um, but he still thought 49 for a reason could also be some agent ting Tim Connolly made an interesting.
Jimmy Watkins (30:17.656)
Comment on draft night about how agents have sort of taken over the second round and directing their guys where they want them to go. So again, lot of factors at play there. But I’m just like, I looked this up the other day. The last 10 years, second round picks that have played double digit minutes per game in the playoffs for a team that won a round. There have been six of them. It doesn’t happen very often. If Tyrese Proctor is...
going to be a playoff contributor. And again, this would involve Lonzo ball getting hurt. We don’t want that. We don’t want this is a break. This is a break last in case of emergency situation, but he would be an outlier if he was ready for that. Clearly the Cavs think he is if they think he’s a guy who fell to 49 with the first round break. Just saying. The other thing I thought you said that was interesting, Ethan, is that you’re going to start the season with Lonzo ball starting, which I agree with. He’ll be the point guard. And then you’re going to have him play the three in bench.
in bench units. I’m giving that a side eye a little bit because that’s, mean, obviously Lonzo’s role is going to be bigger in the beginning of the year than it will be when Darius comes back. That’s just natural. But this dude played 22 minutes per game last year. He hasn’t played more than 30 since 2021-22 before the knees of the trio of knee surgeries that he underwent over the last couple of years.
And you want this guy to last, want him to be, you want him to peak in the playoffs. And I don’t know that extending him early in the regular season is going to help you do that. Now, maybe, I mean, look, the Cavs wouldn’t have gone after Lanzo if they didn’t have some confidence in where he stands medically. I don’t know, frankly, how that could be, but they might know something I don’t. Odds are they do know a lot of things I don’t, and particularly on this front, like the medical records.
have to be part of that trade, right? But I think, I think we’ll probably see a decent amount of Tyrese Proctor and Craig Porter Jr. early on in the season because I think the Cavs should and will be careful with Lonzo Ball. So those are two things that stood out to me. I mean, if you want to talk about like how much does Dean Wade play versus Deandre Hunter, can talk about that stuff, but those are the two.
Jimmy Watkins (32:38.87)
main things or, know, Deandre Hunter at the three to make room for Dean Wade versus Deandre Hunter at the four where he’s probably in better position. We had that conversation for a very long time at the end of last regular season. I’m interested in the point guard spot behind Darius because of the players involved, their youth and in Lonzo’s case, the load management plan for him.
Ethan Sands (33:02.281)
think you make a great point, but I also think when we talk about not the minute load, because I know that’s where you’re going more so than the position that he’s playing, but like when you talk about moving him to small forward, it’s more so the defensive matchup. It’s more so allowing Donovan and Sam to not feel overwhelmed in their defensive matchups as well. Right. And obviously we know that Donovan or excuse me, Darius and Jarrett generally play the first six to eight minutes.
of the first quarter, then get taken out or excuse me, first four to six minutes and then get taken out. And then Donovan and Evan come out at like the eight or nine minute mark. So obviously you can split this up. You can have Lanzo play a little bit longer. You can have him play a little bit shorter. I just think in the second unit, still don’t want, if you can, to have Donovan Mitchell being the main ball handler because you want him to last too.
And I think if the Cavs could pick one player that’s going to last, they’re going to pick Donovan Mitchell over Lonzo Ball in this situation. Unfortunately for Lonzo, but like the reality is if he needs to play a little bit, can.
Jimmy Watkins (34:10.626)
well i don’t think they’re gonna make a choice, i’m s- i don’t think they need to make a choice, i think you can save both
Ethan Sands (34:14.175)
Okay, so tell me what, so right, so tell me who you would have as your second routine.
Jimmy Watkins (34:19.374)
So I think on the...
I just, so I think I would probably go DeAndre at the three, Dean Wade at the four, because I don’t want Lonzo, whether, what we’re talking about, it’s not just minutes. Guarding someone bigger than you is hard on your body. So I think that it’s a long-term play with Lonzo. In the playoffs? Sure, go nuts. That’s when, when they get there, put Lonzo on whoever. I’m about it. In fricking November? No, no, even if we have to.
sacrifice a little defense. I don’t care. We’ve we learned last year how much 60 how far 64 regular season wins will get you no further than 50 that the Pacers won last year. Okay, so it’s all about preserving the guys that need to be preserved for the for the postseason while you’re doing that. Will Donovan have to handle the ball a little bit more? Sure. But I think like if you’re if you ever if you’re ever reach yourself.
Reach a point when you’re talking to yourself about the Cavs this year and you’re thinking, huh, well, we don’t want this guy to initiate too much offense. What’s the answer here? Evan Mobley. Evan Mobley is the answer. Okay. Donovan can dribble the ball up or not. Evan Mobley can dribble the ball up. Donovan can dribble the ball up and then just throw it into Evan Mobley and let Evan Mobley run, run your Evan Mobley offense. Okay. I just, I think that that second unit, was, kept pointing it out against the Pacers.
because those second unit lineups that Evan anchored would be when there was basically no real center on the court for the patient you could attack. But I think that’s going to be the case that carries over to next year too. Like when Evan will be out there with the second unit, that should be his time. It should be him and Deandre Hunter can take way more, can use quote unquote used on usage rate, more possessions, a lot more possessions than they did last year. Does the Ty Jerome vacuum? I think the Cavs want their
Jimmy Watkins (36:19.298)
to be little bit of a Donovan Mitchell vacuum during the regular season. So get up in the ball, give DeAndre the ball. If the offense suffers a little bit as a whole, cool, I don’t care. Both of those guys will be better and more comfortable for it down the road. And that’s where we’re thinking. We’re thinking down the road.
Ethan Sands (36:40.959)
Yeah, I think you’re right and I think that’s a good alternative Especially if you want to for the beginning of the season to give Lonzo kind of more breathing room I think the other thing with Lonzo is this is like his first summer being fully healthy in so long And he’s gonna want to play he’s gonna want to get his body back into NBA playing shit that he’s gonna want to be out there and I’m not saying that he like Kenny Hackinson isn’t gonna be like hey, man, right
I don’t know you that well yet. We’re going to reel you back until I do. But I do think there’s going to be this competitive urge in Lonzo that we’ve seen when he’s out there that you want him to be on the floor. And Jimmy, you make a great point about injuries and wanting to get him to the playoffs because that’s the most important thing. But sometimes when you got that itch, you just got to play. You got to let your guys go and see what they can handle. Sure, there might be a night.
where you need Lonzo to play more because there might be injuries at the beginning of the season that we can’t prepare for. Obviously that already is happening with Darius Garland, but who knows if Craig Porter Jr. If Tyrese Proctor, whatever, we’re not wishing bad health on any of these guys. It’s just what might be. And I think your point about Evan Mobley, I don’t know if you can see me mouthing words, but as soon as you started talking, I was like, he’s going to mention Evan Mobley. He’s going to mention bringing the ball up. And that was the other thing that
I saw the other day and Jimmy, is going to be the last thing I kind of touch on this. We’re going back to the Ty Jerome section of Ty being a guy that would have these spurts and kind of turn into a black hole at points because he was so good offensively that you wouldn’t see a lot of other guys touching the ball on any given possession. And there was a couple of quotes that I was trying to go back on with Kenny Atkinson and see how many times he said he was surprised of Ty Jerome’s
performances, how many times he thought it wasn’t going to last. He was like, yeah, he’s a projected. He’s going to be shooting way over his head or all of these things. And there was a quote that where Kenny literally was praising Ty Jerome and he was like, Hey, yeah, you’re doing great, but like, how about you get off the ball and give your all-star power forward a chance to bring it up the floor. Right. And not to say that Kenny Atkinson didn’t believe in Ty Jerome. I don’t think that’s the point. I think it’s the point that they know they need to.
Ethan Sands (39:03.665)
initiate offense more through Evan Mobley. And we touched on this a lot throughout the playoffs when Evan Mobley was not getting the ball when he should have or wasn’t calling for the ball. And sometimes we just literally said, if you’re going to be the one to grab a rebound, because there’s two players on this team that are averaging over eight rebounds a game, it’s Evan and it’s Jared Allen. Sometimes you got to just grab the board and go and take it yourself and allow the offense to go on its own. And
We’ve talked about this with Kenny Atkinson and I watched a lot of different film on it when LeBron was in Miami with Chris Bosh and Dwayne Wade and how Eric Sposher will run the no lanes offense when it was in transition. that meant that no big man was allowed to run from paint to paint because that would clog up the area. You wanted to space it out. This time, now you have a seven foot unicorn running the break and you have all shooters.
kind of spread out and there’s so many different options. think that’s really what Kenny Atkinson is going to try and lean on. again, Jimmy, great point. Evan Mobley is going to be the one to bring the ball up. And I do want to say that for our subtexters that were expecting me and Jimmy to go into more of your questions today, don’t get discouraged. We are going to continue to go through the questions throughout next week, throughout the coming weeks, especially because we know we only got
to Matt and Nashville’s question today, but there’s so much more to talk about in the summer.
Jimmy Watkins (40:33.88)
Can I make a Ty Jerome, Evan Mobley point? Can I make a quick Ty Jerome, Evan Mobley point real quick? I agree. We talked about it a little bit yesterday. Lonzo will be good for Evan Mobley in this regard. He’s much less of a gunner, much less of a true six man than Ty Jerome who’s a bucket to be sure. sometimes irrational, I’ll say this, irrational confidence is considered irrational for a reason.
Sometimes. Okay. And we saw that a little bit in the playoffs. I will also say that when that it’s not all tied Jerome, not getting Evan mobile with the ball. First of all, when he, when tied Jerome was briefly taken out of the rotation in game five, uh, against the Pacers and Evan, but we had 10 first quarter points, no tied Jerome in that second unit. And to have him, but we still took one shot in the second quarter guards are bald, bald dominant guards going to ball dominant guard sometimes, you know what I mean? Darius Donovan, whoever they, they believe in themselves.
And that’s, it’s, an adjustment. This, this philosophical shift toward Evan Mobley on offense is going to be a multi-season project. So there’s not necessarily anything inherently bad about that, except for the fact that it may have partially cost you a playoff run. That’s not great, but that’s a, I think I’m just saying it’s a normal growing pain on Evan’s end and on the guard’s end. I would also say Ty Jerome. Black hole? Yes. He’s a gunner at times.
He also averaged almost three and a half assists in under 20 minutes a game. And I looked up the list of players who did that the other day. I don’t, I didn’t have too many football reference tabs open today because I was writing about the Browns and lost my basketball reference tab, but I’m pretty sure the list was like shorter than 10 people. like, it’s a different kind of thing where like Ty Jerome beats the man in front of him, dribbles, dribbles, dribbles and dishes and maybe makes the pass that leads to the shot. Whereas
Londo will be like a hockey assist guy. He’s more of a guy where he’ll spread the energy of the ball around a little bit more. But Ty Jerome was getting his teammates involved too. I just wanted to say that.
Ethan Sands (42:42.047)
Again, I wasn’t going all the way and saying that Jerome wasn’t, there were just instances that Ty Jerome, when he was in a slump in the playoffs, you could tell because he was pressing. Correct. And I’m not, and this is what the Cavs have been referencing when they go into their off season perspective. I’m not saying that Ty Jerome wasn’t one of the best facilitators in the regular season, especially in the beginning of the regular season.
Jimmy Watkins (42:52.238)
Right. Particularly in the playoffs, it was an issue.
Ethan Sands (43:09.149)
before he had the offensive confidence to score his own bucket, it was his job to facilitate. There were multiple games where he had seven assists. Him and Karras-Levert were carrying the assist load off the bench. But there also were times where Ty Jerome was like, I have the hot hand, give me the ball and I’m gonna go do my thing. And we talked about this with the fact that the Cavs are losing shot creation and being able to do your own thing with the ball in your hands.
I think people are also forgetting about DeAndre Hunter, has had that role in the past and again, was the A six man of the year candidate before coming to the Cavs and having votes taken away from him by his best friend, unfortunately. So I think we, we talk about all these little things, but there’s always nuance to them. And that’s what I keep telling everybody on this podcast, whether it’s Chris, whether it’s you, Jimmy, it’s all of these different layers that sometimes don’t get touched on. And I’m glad that you’re here.
to keep me in check when those things happen. And I just think when we talk about the growth of this team, the growth of the capability of the roster that they have, yes, we did start with some fireworks with LeBron James, but I do think this Cavs team, as many are saying that they’ve taken a step backwards with the loss of Ty Jerome, I think they’re building something that they can believe in, that they have utmost confidence in when it comes to the tenacity of the defensive end, the
physicalness, the toughness, and all of these things that they lacked in the playoffs last year. They’re trying to build to change that. Everybody, as I mentioned on last podcast, everybody should be able to dribble, shoot, and defend. And that’s what this Cows team is continuing to build around. But with all that being said, that’ll wrap up today’s episode of the Wine and Gold Talk Podcast. But remember,
to become a Cavs Insider and interact with Chris, me, and Jimmy by subscribing to Subtext. Sign up for a 14-day free trial or visit cleveland.com slash Cavs and click on the blue bar at the top of the page. If you don’t like it, that’s fine. All you have to do is text the word stop. It’s easy, but we can tell you that the people who sign up stick around because this is the best way to get insider coverage on the Cavs from me, Chris, and Jimmy. This isn’t just our podcast. It’s your podcast.
Ethan Sands (45:31.303)
And the only way to have your voice heard is through subtext. Y’all be safe. We out.
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