CLEVELAND, Ohio — In this episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast, Ethan Sands and Jimmy Watkins discuss the importance of locker room leadership, particularly from players who aren’t superstars.
Takeaways:
1. Max Strus vs. De’Andre Hunter Decision
The Cavaliers may face a future decision between keeping Max Strus or De’Andre Hunter as both players’ contracts expire in two seasons. While Hunter might be considered the better individual player, Strus brings significant intangible value through his leadership and locker room presence. Jimmy Watkins noted that “culture is a huge part” of these decisions, and Strus’ background (grinding his way into the league and “Heat culture” experience) gives him a unique perspective that benefits the team. Additionally, Strus fits better with coach Kenny Atkinson’s system through his off-ball movement and willingness to pass, while Hunter has a more score-first mentality.
2. The Importance of Multiple Leadership Voices
The podcast emphasized that teams need multiple leaders with different leadership styles rather than relying on a single voice. As Ethan Sands pointed out, “The importance of Donovan Mitchell’s leadership cannot be lost on this team. But you need more than one leader.” The discussion highlighted how different players lead in different ways: Max Strus through direct messaging (like his playoff text telling teammates “If you don’t believe, then don’t show up for work”), Tristan Thompson through reality checks, and Evan Mobley through leading by example with his work ethic.
3. Identified Team Leaders
When discussing the Cavaliers’ leadership structure, Jimmy Watkins definitively identified Donovan Mitchell and Max Strus as the clear leaders. Beyond these two, the leadership picture becomes less clear. While Darius Garland as point guard “wants that responsibility” and “embraces that,” Watkins expressed some reservations about Garland’s leadership maturity, referencing past controversies including comments about Tyler Herro and trade request rumors that created complications within the organization.
4. Jarrett Allen and Evan Mobley’s Leadership Potential
Coach Kenny Atkinson appears to be trying to develop Jarrett Allen and Evan Mobley into team leaders. Watkins suggested that if Atkinson were asked about team leaders, “he would say Jarrett Allen and Evan Mobley, because he’s trying to speak it into existence.” Both players were described as “mature beyond their years” who set excellent examples through their professionalism. However, Watkins noted that Mobley needs to improve his vocal leadership, stating: “Evan Mobley, you’re supposed to be the guy around which we build this franchise, and I can’t hear you when I’m sitting across the room from you.”
5. Leadership Impact on Team Culture
The podcast opened discussing how the departure of locker room leaders can significantly impact team culture, referencing Georges Niang and Caris LeVert who were “beloved in the locker room” before being traded. This connects to the broader theme that leadership and culture are critical considerations in roster decisions. Watkins emphasized that coach Kenny Atkinson emphasizes the importance of culture, suggesting that maintaining strong locker room leadership is a priority for the organization’s decision-making, potentially even outweighing pure basketball talent in some situations when making difficult roster choices.
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Transcript
NOTE: This transcript was generated by artificial intelligence and could contain misspellings and errors.
Ethan Sands: What up Cavs Nation? I’m your host Ethan Sands and I’m back with another episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. Joining me today. You know him, you love them. Jimmy Watkins, cleveland.com’s columnist and we are here to talk about a interesting topic that I came across on my social media search where I watched Marcus Morris and Markief Morris podcast where they went into in depth on the leadership of players behind the scenes or players that don’t necessarily make a huge impact on the floor, but their impact is felt in the locker room. And sometimes these players get traded for the Cavs. That looks like George Niang, Kong, Laverne, two guys that were beloved in the locker room. And Markief and Marcus were talking about how their absences, not necessarily George and Karis, but these impactful players in general, their impact, their absences are felt when they are either traded, released or whatever it may be. And I was curious to ask you, in a situation where we’ve talked about this a little bit this summer, if the Cavs have to decide between Max Strus and De’Andre Hunter in the coming years as they’re both set to have their contracts expire in two seasons, would the Cavs lean towards Max because of what he brings to the locker room? More so and negating a little bit the difference in one paycheck for De’Andre Hunter because he’s making more money than Max Dream, but also what De’Andre Hunter brings to the floor because I think we can all agree in a one on one matchup, I’m taking De’Andre Hunter over Max Strooz. But I’m just curious to your thought process of who you think the most vocal background leader is for the Cavs and whose voice, if it was left or if it was absent, would be felt the most. And to me it smacks truth. But I also think there’s a slight possibility that it’s Tristan Thompson says a lot of year.
Jimmy Watkins: I think Tristan was a great leader for this team. But I also, I also think that it’s harder to lead when you’re not playing. Just the reality Max Struus is doing stuff is talking to guys on the court, seeing things as they happen live. And Tristan, of course you get a good eye. You can see things from the bench that some guys can’t see on the court. So it’s nice to have both. But I think to your question about losing Max eventually, which is a possibility for sure. We were talking about Jaylon Tyson the other day and if Jaylon Tyson proves himself as a You know, as a guy who can kind of do the dirty work and, you know, comes along as a shooter and a, you know, secondary tertiary playmaker, that, that would be one of the guys you’d be looking at to say, okay, maybe we can save some money here and, you know, know, replicate some of the Max Druce experience. We have Sam Rail on an affordable contract for the next couple of years that takes care of the off ball movement, shooting, all that sort of stuff. And then Jaylen Tyson can fill in, like the toughness, rebounding, gritty, take a defensive assignment type stuff. Yeah, Max would be a candidate for a second apron casualty. Right. That being said, you, you do have to be careful how many, how many veteran voices you’re willing to sacrifice on this team because at some point Donovan’s going to be looking around and saying, who else am I talking to here? Donovan is great. He’s a great leader in his own right. But it shouldn’t always be from one voice, whether that’s the coach or one player inside the locker room. I think it helps to have, you know, Max, who garners respect from a different perspective because of his background, because he had to grind his way into the league, because he has, I mean, his entire career has been adversity. Like, he has a unique perspective on it. And you can’t overlook the whole Heat culture aspect of it all. Like, this is what I did when we went to the fricking finals as an eight seed. That stuff matters. That stuff matters. And so when you pose the De’Andre Hunter, Max Stru side by side, the intangible category is a huge part, huge part of that. Because here’s the other thing. While I agree with you that in a vacuum, I think 32 out of 32 NBA teams would probably choose De’Andre Hunter over Max Strust in that, in that conversation, De’Andre Hunter, like from day one, it’s kind of been a tricky fit. It was a good trade. We all thought it was a good trade, but kind of took him a little bit to get acclimated. He didn’t have any practice and in the playoffs, you know, he played a career low minutes and he’s never played a ton. He’s never, didn’t have a ton of playoff experience, but played 23 minutes a game in the playoff last year. That is comfortably his career low during a playoff run. And we’ll see. Like, we. I don’t want to overreact to any of that stuff because again, he had one freaking practice between the time he got traded and the time the playoffs started. I am interested to see what Kenny Atkinson can do with De’Andre Hunter or how he’ll integrate De’Andre Hunter into what the Cavs do with a full summer of time to think about it and time to get De’Andre and training camp, all that stuff. But Max Drew fits what Kenny Atkinson wants to do better than De’Andre Hunter does. Point blank period. Max Truce moves without the ball better than De’Andre Hunter does. Max Truce is a more willing passer than De’Andre Hunter is. Now. De’Andre Hunter’s job has never been to get other people involved, but that’s not something that always needs to be necessarily asked of somebody. That’s. That’s how I’ll put that. Another way you could put it is that, hey, De’Andre Hunter likes shooting the ball. He does. He has a score. He has a scorer’s mentality. That’s okay if you’re the six man on a team, that’s kind of what they need you to do. Cool. Keep doing it. But when you make hard decisions, culture is a huge part of it, and schematic fit is a huge part of it, and we’ll see what happens over. Over the next year. But I would just say that it’s a good comparison that you made there, and I do think it would be a harder decision for the Cavs in particular than it might be for other teams in their position, due in part to, of course, Max’s malleability as a basketball player, but really more about, you know, the presence that he has in the locker room and the fact they already sacrificed two presences like that in George Niang and Caris Lavert to get De’Andre Hunter in the first place. Like, where do you draw the line on that stuff? All Kenny Atkinson fricking talks about is culture. That. That matters to me in a. In a conversation like this. A hypothetical down the road where, you know, second apron’s getting a little tight and you gotta get rid of one of these guys at this position. It’s not as cut and dry as you might think.
Ethan Sands: Just for clarification, the podcast that I was mentioning I’m referencing is the OG show, hosted by Udonis Haslam and Mike Miller. Marke Morris and Marcus Morris were just on it. But to go into that a little bit further, the one of the last things that was mentioned in this video that I was watching was one of the brothers, Mark Eve from Marcus. I have a hard time telling them apart, especially in this very small interview, but one of them said at the end was like, the best players aren’t always the leaders, right. When it comes to locker room presence. And we’ve had this conversation throughout the entire summer about Donovan Mitchell’s leadership, about taking back, about getting off the ball, about helping empower Darius Garland, Evan Mobley, Jarrett Allen, Max Struz, you name it, he’s empowered them. Sam Merrill, Dean Wade. The importance of Donovan Mitchell’s leadership cannot be lost on this team. But you need more than one leader. That’s why in the NFL and ncaa, there’s not just one player with a C on their chest. Right? You have multiple leaders. You have multiple different. Because not everybody leads the same way.
Jimmy Watkins: Right?
Ethan Sands: Max Struse sends a text message in the playoffs saying, if you’re not ready to come to work, don’t show up. Right? There’s Tristan Thompson who has conversations after the best offensive performance in a half in Cav franchise history and says, y’ all let off the gas. Y’ all did this. And trying to set the precedent in the reality check that there’s more to be seen.
Jimmy Watkins: Right?
Ethan Sands: Sometimes you need that kind of leader. Then you have guys like Aaron Mobley, who’s in the gym all day, every day working on this game. Leaders by example. I just think it’s interesting because we’ve talked about this and how Donovan Mitchell has led and also saying that he’s not LeBron and doesn’t want to necessarily leave like LeBron. Who do you think are the leaders of the locker room? Jimmy, you’ve been in there a good amount. You’ve gotten to see the mannerisms and how the storyline of how people have held themselves. Who do you think are the three leaders or maybe five leaders in the locker room for the Cavs.
Jimmy Watkins: Donovan and Max are the two easy answers. It’s just so clear the way they handle themselves and the way other people look to them. Donovan, it’s natural for everyone. I think what you were saying about the OG pod, yes, it’s true the best players aren’t always the leaders, but none of the best players aren’t always the best leaders, but the best players are always a leader in some regard. Right? Like that’s unavoidable. The buck stops with you, then. Yeah, there’s a ton of leadership responsibility that comes with that. After that, I think it’s interesting. I think you’d want to look at your point guard, Darius Garland. I. I think that he wants that responsibility. I think he embraces that. I think he does a good job of. Of setting a leadership tone with the way he works, but I Think the cast would tell you? I mean, like, we’ve had a couple of conversations on this, on this podcast about, like, Darius. Why are you saying that the Tyler hero thing, that wasn’t the most mature leadership thing to do, even if they were friends? Like, I still think that that got kind of misconstrued a little bit. What Darius said initially about Hunt, Tyler, Giro. Apparently they. He said they were friends afterwards. But like I remember Chris saying the moment, certainly an eye roll from people in the front office when that happened. You know, the whole. Did Darius request a trade after the Celtics series loss? Did he not request a trade? Someone close to Darius girl and said that he was going to request a trade when Donovan left. And now that’s a common, tricky bit of toothpaste to put back in the tube. Don’t you think you’re gonna leave the team after you tried to leave us after, and for what reason were you gonna lead the team? Because Donovan was coming back. That’s kind of strange then. We’ve had the conversation on this podcast already about Jarrett Allen and Evan Mobley. I think if Kenny. If you ask Kenny Atkinson this question, he would say Jarrett Allen and. Or Evan Motley, because that. He’s trying to speak it into existence. He wants Jarrett Allen. And by the way, there are more than one ways to lead. I think Jaron Allen and Evan Mobley set excellent examples. They are two. Kenny Atkinson sleeps soundly at night knowing Jarrett Allen and Evan Mobley are on his team. And they. When. When the Cavs go to Miami, you don’t have to worry about that Miami flu with those guys. Okay? Like, those are vers. Those are people. Those are two young men mature beyond their years. Right? Talking is part of it. Defensive communication on the court, setting a tone. Evan Mobley, you’re supposed to be the guy around which we build this franchise. You’re our cornerstone. And I can’t hear you when I’m sitting across the room from you. I’m sorry. It matters. It matters when we’re in those conversations and so long way in the way. To answer your question, Donovan and Max for sure stamped bullet pointed as leader. After that, I think there’s kind of an open conversation.
Ethan Sands: Do you think you need more than two? I just think it’s an interesting conversation because you hear leadership captains thrown around a lot in the locker room, right? Like, Darius Garland talks about it. Talks about himself, about being a leader, being one of the leaders of this team. And sure, you’re the starting point guard, but what have you done to prove that you’re a leader, right? And I think the Cavs as a whole are trying to take this next step to get there.
But with all that being said, that’ll wrap up today’s episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. But remember to become a Cavs insider and interact with Chris, me and Jimmy by subscribing to Subtext. If you want to get a shout out on the podcast, you want to have your questions an answered on the show. This is where you can send in all of your thoughts and questions for us to discuss on the podcast. To do so, sign up for a 14 day free trial or visit cleveland.comcavs and click on the blue bar at the top of the page. If you don’t like it, that’s fine. All you have to do is text the word stop. It’s easy, but we can tell you that the people who sign up stick around. This is the best way to get insider coverage on the Cavs from me, Chris and Jimmy. This isn’t just our podcast, it’s your podcast. And the only way to have your voice heard is through Subtang. Y’ all be safe. We out.
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