CLEVELAND, Ohio — Welcome to this week’s Terry’s Talkin’ podcast, with cleveland.com columnist Terry Pluto and host David Campbell. In today’s episode, taped Tuesday afternoon, they talk about the Guardians, who’ve ridden some strong pitching to become a threat in the wild-card race.
They also look at the state of the Browns after Sunday’s rough loss in Baltimore. And what Terry is hearing about the Cavs as they prepare for training camp later this month.
.And readers weigh in with some more of their favorite sports nicknames over the years.
Highlights:
The Guardians are still in playoff contention despite injuries and setbacks.
Terry reflects on decades of poor performance by the team before the 1990s.
Since 2013, under Terry Francona, the Guardians have had only two losing seasons.
Stephen Vogt has matched Francona’s win total through his first 310 games.
The team’s consistent competitiveness is often underappreciated by fans.
Guardians are three games out of the wild card with 13 games left.
Terry praises MLB’s expanded playoff format for keeping more teams relevant.
Guardians’ pitching depth continues to be a strength despite injuries.
Terry discusses the impact of trades, especially the one involving Mike Clevinger.
Austin Hedges is praised for his leadership and handling of pitchers, despite poor hitting.
Terry supports the six-man rotation as a way to preserve pitchers’ arms.
Parker Messick leads the team in ERA; other young pitchers are contributing well.
Jose Ramirez is lauded for his leadership and playing through injuries.
Brian Rocchio’s move to second base has improved the infield defense.
Terry suggests Travis Bazzana could be moved to the outfield to keep Rocchio at second.
The Guardians’ remaining schedule includes games against Detroit, Minnesota, and Texas.
Terry and David transition to discussing the Browns’ embarrassing loss to the Ravens.
Joe Flacco struggled, and the game plan didn’t help; coaching decisions are questioned.
Injuries and poor performance from high-paid players like Jack Conklin and Denzel Ward are highlighted.
Terry defends Myles Garrett’s performance amid fan criticism.
Browns’ defense ranks seventh in limiting explosive plays; Packers rank first.
Concerns raised about offensive play-calling and lack of deception.
Terry warns against rushing to bench Flacco after one bad game.
Baker Mayfield’s resurgence with Tampa Bay sparks debate about his time in Cleveland.
Terry believes the Browns mishandled Baker’s injury and departure.
The Watson trade is described as a franchise-altering decision with long-term consequences.
Terry and David discuss the Cavs’ offseason workouts and injury challenges.
Cavs aim to improve endurance and toughness to match teams like Indiana and OKC.
Terry shares insights on player rotations and injury recovery strategies.
The podcast wraps with listener emails about sports nicknames and historical anecdotes.
Terry mentions his column on Antietam and reflections on historical figures like Jesse Reno.
If you have something you’d like to share, or a question or a topic you’d like to see included on the podcast, email it to sports@cleveland.com, and put “Terry’s Talkin’” in the subject line.
You can find previous podcasts below, as well as a transcript.
As the transcript is computer-generated, it will contain many spelling and grammatical errors.
David Campbell : Hey, what’s going on? It’s time for this week’s edition of Terry’s Talking Podcast. I’m your host, David Campbell. Terry Pluto is here and we have a lot to talk about. Terry, you want to start with the Guardians today?
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Terry Pluto : Yes. Because we need a tonic for the Browns.
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David Campbell : I mean, that was probably a good.
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Terry Pluto : Idea as to quote 14 players, that was a very embarrassing show in Baltimore. And that’s on them. As it. As they like to say, or at least as the coach likes to say, that’s on me. But before we go there, plenty of time to obsess about the Browns later. Yeah, I was thinking about this and looking at the Guardians. Here they are, what, there’s like 13 games to go, something like that, and they have six against Detroit. And I was thinking, well, when I was a kid, did they ever have last couple weeks of September, a big series? And the answer is no. Let’s assume I started following it in 1960, which would have made me five. I also missed 1960 because in the spring of 1960, they traded Rocky Colito. And the year before, they finished five games out of first place, 1959. So that was like a real team in real contention. So since then, let’s go from 1960 to 1980. I’m picking that because 1980s, when I started to cover the Tribe for recovered them for the Plain Dealer. And then, and then. So for 1960 to 1980, they had, they did have four winning seasons, but the closest they ever were to first place was 14 games. Now, to be fair, it was still before they were breaking down the divisions very much. Most of that was in one division, but nonetheless, I mean, they stunk. And then if you really want to roll it forward, you go from, say, 1960 to 1994, where they. They were legitimately in contention when, of course, baseball ended with the strike. And that’s why the subhead on the book, the Curse of Rocky Color Vito, is a loving look at a 34 year slump. And so the. But that’s. In other words, for 34 years there was no real contention. Now you take.
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David Campbell : I can’t even imagine that like you, you would go into every April excited to see what the team would do. And then by the time July rolled around, all you’d be doing is like, look, hoping some guy that you were a fan of would go 2 for 3 or something. Like there was nothing to cheer for, right?
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Terry Pluto : No, no. And then you had the, the June swoon. That was one of the things that the. They used to talk about back then, or it’s all done by the 4th of July, except the fireworks. That was another one. And so that’s what you would have. So then you turn around and I mean, obviously the, the tribe of the 90s was terrific from like 95 through 01, but I’m going to even make it more relevant. Since 2013, when Terry Francona came in, they’ve had two losing seasons and they’ve only played 25 total games in 13 years where they were eliminated from contention. And so maybe that’s why I’m a little bit out of patience with the baseball fans, some of whom are in my generation, act like this is the worst team ever, or the Dolan’s won’t spend, or they don’t know what they’re doing, or. Or this is awful. No, they consistently put a contender on the field, whether you like the budget or not. And here they are doing it again.
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David Campbell : I did see, but then again, that ties into this. Terry. Through the first 310 games in Cleveland, Stephen Vogt has won 170.
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Terry Pluto : Yeah.
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David Campbell : And Terry and Terry Francona won 169.
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Terry Pluto : Yeah.
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David Campbell : Like, it’s just a continuation of what they’ve been doing for over. Over a decade.
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Terry Pluto : I mean, you call it the pitching factory or. I mean, they. This is what good teams do. Even the people can’t get their heads around it because it’s like, well, you know what they do? They go to two default themes. Number one is the Dolan’s are cheap, they don’t spend. Number two is, when are they going to win a World Series? Yes, I would love to see them win a World Series, but they were in the World Series in 2016, just as they were in a World Series and 1997 and 1995, and they’ve been in the seventh game twice. And the meantime they’ve been in the playoffs a whole bunch of times and they’re knocking on the playoff door again. I don’t know if they’ll make it or not. I wrote them off at least twice this season, but here we are in the middle of September and you know, they’re good enough to dream, as they say. You’re good enough to look at this and think, are they. They might just climb over Texas and Houston or whoever else it takes and get in there. Well, they got 87 wins or, excuse me, 78. 78 ones. Yeah, there’s my.
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David Campbell : Do you want me to reset stuff real quick? So they’re 78 and 71. They’re three games out in the wild card and now they’re behind Houston in the wild card because Seattle jumped over them and they’re tied with Texas. So anyway, they’re three games out of this wild card. I think the division is pretty much gone.
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Terry Pluto : Yep.
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David Campbell : So anyway, it’s, it’s so different, Terry. Like this is what Major League Baseball wanted when they went to the divisions and then the wild card and the, and the three wild card teams. And it’s to keep baseball relevant for more people going into September. And it’s working, right? You like this?
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Terry Pluto : Absolutely. And it’s also an antidote to the unfair system of the salary cap lack thereof. Because the nice thing is if you do make the playoffs, I mean, if it were just about money, the Mets and the Yankees would be playing for the World Series every single year. The Yankees until this past season had not been there for 14 years previously to last year. You know, the Dodgers should be like winning all the time in the World Series, but when you get into the playoffs with one of these teams, you just have to beat them in a five game series or you have to beat them in a seven game series. You know, I mean, if we’re best of 19 or some number, odd number like that, you would be in trouble. And so, and again, I’m. If we’ve been listening, people know that just like you, we’re all for some sort of salary cap and they need to fix it. But the one thing that does help these teams is the playoff slash system that they have going here and that some of these series are shorter. Remember, the shorter the series, kind of the better the lesser team has a chance to win.
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David Campbell : Right. And you know, look, I think there’s two things here. The expanded playoffs and also the, the competitive picks that they give to the smaller market teams in the draft, which I think come at the end of the first round. And it’s kind of helping the middle or small market teams on the front end in the draft and then also in the back end helping them when they get into the, helping them get into the playoffs and actually like you said, maybe, maybe win some games. I mean, Guardians fans can really take some, some solace in what Milwaukee is doing. I mean, the brewers have 91 wins, comparable size market and like that’s what this can be, right? It’s the Guardians last year it’s Milwaukee this year it’s just you, you kind of hit that magic and everything falls into place and you can make a.
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Terry Pluto : Run at the thing and you know, you don’t have to be perfect. The thing is like, well, if everything goes right, everything’s not even come close to going right for the Guardians this year. And all right, so they got, would you say 78 wins? You got 13 more games to go. I’m probably gonna win 85 to 88. That may not be good enough for the playoffs, but it’s a lot of wins. And you know, you got, you got two guys in no man’s land for gambling. You know, you’ve, you’ve got like. I forgot I was just looking at some stats. Remember Ben Lively, he was a key starting pitch. I forgot he was even on the team. And so you, you see those things and you’re, you’re all star closer. They were hoping for some of their. All the prospects got hurt, the water got hurt, Burrito got hurt. They all got these top prospects got hurt. And I’m sitting here and I’m looking at, you know, you got that six man rotation going with Cantillo and Parker Messick and Slate Saccony. Not exactly household names. And then you look at the bullpen. Jacob Junas, Kobe Howard is the new. By Shaw. By Brian Shaw.
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David Campbell : That’s actually his nickname. Right. Everyday festival, every day festival.
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Terry Pluto : Yeah, it’s the same thing. You know, I mean we get sick of seeing that you need that guy. You almost get sick of seeing all the time because, because it saves your bullpen sometimes. You know, Eric Zabrowski is a.2 Tommy John surgeries and for, you know, they’re trying, they’re trying to win and make the, make the playoffs without being able to hit at all. But the pitching, you know, I always talk about the pitching factory they have going there and they really do have it going. And so I just kind of wanted to, you know, roll that out and say, well, look at, you know, what they’ve done.
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David Campbell : And, and I was going to say, Terry, like last year, I think. Well, no, everything went as well as it could have probably last year, especially with a, with new manager in the whole.
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Terry Pluto : Although they didn’t have Bieber, which.
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David Campbell : Yeah, that’s true. That was the one thing. So they made the playoffs and they made a bit of a run and you know, they gave the Yankees a little bit of a challenge. Not as far as they wanted, but like this season, everything that seems like it could have gone wrong has gone wrong and they’re still in contention. And again, it goes back to what you’re saying about the cultural stability and the approach that this franchise has. It’s just. They’re just gonna grind it out and, and when they have trouble some. They find somebody else to, to get the job done and they’re in it.
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Terry Pluto : Which is the one thing that’s blessed is Jose Ramirez. As great as he is on the field, and he is in terms of how he leads the team, conducts himself and all that, it’s on par with his greatness on the field. He plays hurt half the time. When he’s in one of these slumps, he’s dealing with some injury that he doesn’t tell anybody about and including the team. Including the team, you know, and he’s just out there and playing so hard and you know, you have. He’s helped. He’s helped Manzaro, I think, too. Manzarlo’s coming around. I don’t. I don’t know. I just admire consistency and maybe doing more with less and, you know, I called them kind of the little team that could. Like the little engine that could. Yeah, I think I can. I think I can. And they’re still trying to climb that mountain. But I would have, I would have gone crazy to have a team like this when I was a kid. I mean, it was totally just.
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David Campbell : I could totally see it.
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Terry Pluto : Drudgery.
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David Campbell : Yeah.
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Terry Pluto : You know, all the time. And some of those stats about how far they were out of first place wouldn’t have been quite as bad if they were in divisions, but they weren’t. They stunk. That means 34 years. It was awful.
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David Campbell : All right, we got a couple of emails here that will kind of. I, I do want to spend some time on this six man rotation and get your thoughts. And there’s probably an Earl Weaver. There’s probably an Earl Weaver mentioned in here somewhere. All right, the first email is from Dan Lehman. Dan’s from Cleveland. He says Joey Cantelo pitched eight scoreless innings last Tuesday. I looked up how we acquired such a great pitcher. It is from the San Diego Mike Clevenger, Greg Allen and Matt Waldron trade back in 2020. It is the gift that keeps giving. We received Austin Hedge’s Cal Qu, Gabriel Arias, Josh Naylor, Owen Miller and Joey Cantillo. It is hard to believe that three of those players are still with the Guardians. And the Josh Naylor trade has become Slade Saccony. Where would we be without that trade? Good job putting that all together, Dan. I think a lot of fans don’t remember that. That. That is some impact right there. So. All right, then, our next one. Oh, do you want to comment?
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Terry Pluto : Yeah. First of all, one of the advantages of kind of the Mr. Big volume trade, and that’s what it was is that like one of the hotter prospects in there was Owen Miller. You know, he failed. But Cantillo, who at that point was pitching a double A, they kind of liked him, but he would get these like tired arm periods. You don’t know. And of course they were hoping, they thought Neyor would hit know they were hoping for that. Hedges. I remember when they traded for Hedges and I’m talking to Chris Antonetti and I’m looking, I go, this guy, Stats as a hitter are about as bad as I’ve seen. He goes, oh, he looks, you know, easy. He goes, we’re not talking about him as a hitter. He like, wouldn’t finish the sentence because I, he says, I’m telling you, Terry, if you would really watch him, he’s one of the best catchers all around that we’ve ever seen. And in terms of, you know, not blocking the balls, but the way he handles pitchers and that he, he brings a special something to the team. It doesn’t mean you have to catch him every day. I get very upset when people start dwell on Hedges. We’re talking about a backup catcher, you know, oh, well, if you had another, what you had been Luke Maley or some other backup catcher, suddenly the team will win five more games. No.
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David Campbell : Well, and a guy who makes everybody else in the clubhouse better too, by boosting them up. And, and I think we’ve seen what he’s meant to Emmanuel Class A through the years in terms of just getting him through innings and fighting now and.
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Terry Pluto : Then, you know, he pops up. That vote will never say this, but you could tell once in a while it seems like it’s odd that he’s catching this game, the certain pitcher. And I think it’s because vote decides, no, we’ve got to get him in there to work with Kentel Low or to work with whoever is struggling because Hedges has the gravitas. I always say that word to. They listen to him and he does know what he’s doing. And again, it’s a backup catcher. I just wish people would like, get that through their brain. And if they, if the baseball people all think this guy backup is worth more than your average backup catcher, it’s 4 million instead of 2 million or whatever. So what?
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David Campbell : Yeah, people, very demanding.
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Terry Pluto : Yeah.
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David Campbell : Catcher position.
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Terry Pluto : Well, because you look at the batting average and frankly, he’s one of the worst looking hitters I’ve ever seen. I’m just, I’ll just leave it at that. It just is. And it’s. He swings hard kind of in one place. And Mike Keegan used to have a line about that and he would not necessarily hedges because he had. Mike was gone before they got hedges. But he says, you know those guys that kind of swing hard in one place once in a while they run into a fastball like it’s a car wreck. And, and you know, it’s like I think he’s got five homers or something like that and he’ll hit one out, but he sort of swings hard in the same place and hopes for contact.
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David Campbell : All right, here’s our second email from Jim Brazdel. Jim is a longtime listener from North Carolina. He says. Terry and Dave, following up on my comments, I realized that MLB limits the number of pitchers during the regular season to 13. Nevertheless, I still think a six man rotation is worth considering for the future. Even if you can’t replace a peashooter position player, the sixth man can be a swing man to pitch in relief when needed. It would be another managing innovation worth trying, don’t you think? So I wanted to ask you, Terry, the Guardians have been going with this six man starting pitching rotation and you know, a few years ago when the Rays started doing the bullpen game and it was working, everybody’s like, wow, this could be the new trend in baseball and they’ve backed away from it. And it seems like the bullpen game has gone to being a. It’s a necessity that you have to do and you kind of hold your nose while you do it. Instead of like this bold new innovation in baseball. Do you think that a six man rotation could be something we could see more of next season where it becomes more of a thing? Or is this just something that the Guardians decided to try and you don’t think it’s going to catch on?
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Terry Pluto : I would try it. They tried everything else to try to help these guys arms too. Let’s try this because they’re getting more innings out of these guys. That would be the goal. I would certainly look at that. And then you. And they send these guys up and down from the Miners anyway. I know you’re limited to five times. You could send a guy up and call him back, but you know, you can, you can do that and you turn around and you look at what they’re getting out of. I mean, Slate Saccony was like one of the biggest disappointments going in Arizona. He was a second round pick or first round pick, I forgot which. And they could never get him untracked and he had a six ERA last year. So.
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David Campbell : Yeah. Do you want me to run through the, the stats. All right. Parker Messick is leading the team in ERA right 3.0 with a 1.8 4. Gavin Williams 10 and 5 with a 3.1 6. Joey Cantillo 5 and 3 with a 3.3 6. Let’s see, Logan Allen was 7 11th, 4.3 6. Saccony 6 and 6 with a 4.3 9. M. Tanner Bybe 10 and 11 with a 4.4 4. That’s not bad considering what this rotation has been through this year. Right, that’s, that’s some good numbers. Yeah.
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Terry Pluto : Yeah. And Bobby’s had a disappointing year and he admits that. And yet they’re still, you know, being propped up by these, by these other guys. And I love Messick when I saw him pitch in that prospect game because I granted I had had somebody from the Guardians tell me, you’ll like him, he knows how to pitch. He’s your kind of pitcher. Because they kind of know that I’m not all in infatuated with the radar gun and, and that stuff. And so he’s got, you know, he’s, he was I think the ACC pitcher of the year at Florida State. I mean he’s big time, big time college pitcher. I like big time college pitchers. They don’t necessarily have to be big time college pitchers who, who throw 99 miles an hour either. When they were drafting Bybee and they drafted. Yeah. Tenor Bybey and they also drafted Bieber, those guys were not flamethrowers at all in college, but they were pitchers and they got here and they continued to do better. So it’s worth it, you know, if you could get another inning or two out of these guys, it’s certainly worth trying. They tried everything else and if we could see at the end of the year that they get through it without having to go get Tommy John surgery.
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David Campbell : That’s a win right there.
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Terry Pluto : Yeah.
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David Campbell : And itself. So. All right, let’s see. So the series against the Detroit Tigers were taping this on Tuesday afternoon. The first game in the Tigers series in Detroit is tonight at 6:40 and it will be Joey Cantillo against Casey Mize tonight. The Tigers are pitching Jack Flaherty and School bowl the next two days. But I haven’t seen the pitchers for the Guardians yet. I don’t know that they’ve named them. I think that’s the last that Poinsey had up on cleveland.com guardian so I guess we’ll see how they sort that out. But three really big games up in Detroit.
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Terry Pluto : Yeah, it’s terrific. And I and as a kid the Tigers were kind of my second favorite team because I could get there used to be on Wajr Detroit, the great voice of the Great Lakes with ernie harwell on 50,000 watts booming into Cleveland to listen to the Tigers at night. So I’ve always had kind of a soft spot for the Tigers. I enjoyed that Cleveland Detroit playoff series last year. You know where they beat the. The Tigers in game five. They beat Scubal and it’s great. I think there’s a natural rivalry there. And by the way, for. For the longest time Roberta had this theory that they, the Tribe, this goes back to that and Detroit can’t be good at the same time. And we looked at this and Danny Novor who was older writer out of Detroit back then, I think he wrote for. For advance for us. I forgot they used to. I think they called the booth papers back then. He went through and he had heard Roberta talk about this and like out of a 20 year snapshot, I think the only time they both had winning records was like three times. It was like the Roberta theory actually held. But it’s back to now. So they’re both good now and it.
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David Campbell : Would be fun to see the next five, six years if there could be kind of a good lively thing. I mean Scubal had a thing going with the Guardians fans on during the playoffs last year where they were giving it to each other. That was some good theater.
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Terry Pluto : Yeah, Cleveland, Detroit, that’s what it’s all about. You know, that kind of stuff. So okay.
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David Campbell : All right. Well the Guardians have Detroit for three and then they’re gonna be in Minnesota for three. It’s their last trip of the year and then they’re going to be back. They’ll have Detroit at home for three and then Texas for three to finish the season next week. I don’t think I added that upright. There’s 13 games anyway, they’re wrapping up with Detroit and Texas to finish the regular season. We will see and then, then we’ll see how things stand. So I don’t know anything else in Guardians. Terry.
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Terry Pluto : You know, if you look at how Brian Rocchio, we’ve talked about this before, but I just jumped under this right away when I started to see him play second base. He changes the whole infield there just like him and S did. His defense is terrific. And then I really think he’s just starting to feel better about himself as a player and he’s hitting better. They made some subtle adjustments, but so much of it I remember Terry Francona we’re sitting around and I missed having Francona where you would have these. He was more of an outline baseball guy. You know, the younger managers, they kind of come out, they do their thing and that’s it. And it’s not a knock on vote or any of this how they’re trained. Where Tito was sitting around, he would just say, we have been trying to figure out how do you get a hitter’s confidence? How do you, you know, how do you, the old thing, you need success to be confident, but if you don’t have success, you’re not confident. So how do you become confident when you don’t have any success? You know, back and forth and he used to say it’s the thing that even when he was playing and then suddenly you just gotta hope you start to hit. Well, you know what happened? Rokio went to the Miners and came back and started to hit. Now, whether it was coincidental or not, and even his stats in Triple A, I mean, they were just okay. But he came back and, and then you move him. He was a good shortstop, but you move him to second base and this is, this is special.
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David Campbell : Well, that play made the other day late in the game, like, that’s the kind of stuff that gains you not just a win, but also cred in the clubhouse that you’re a guy that they can rely on and, and you were on it early. Like he’s making him and Ezzy in plays out there right now and, and making a huge difference.
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Terry Pluto : You know, I’m getting all these stuff about, well, Bizan is a second basement, let’s just see how this plays out. And I, I’m, I may be in the minority on this, but I talked to one other person with close to the guardians and he said it to me, he said, why can’t, why can’t Bazano play the outfield? How many times have we seen infielders move through the outfield? It’s not a problem because if, if Rokio’s playing goal of second base and he’s sitting 250 with, you know, close to 700 ops. Exactly. Why do you want to change that? You know, Bazana can’t play second base like that. I mean, nobody ever claimed that was his deal. If the guy’s gonna hit, I mean, he’s still right feel still the, you know, the black hole, there’s nobody out there.
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David Campbell : You’re right. He could be there at second base for a long time. Yeah, we’ll see how it goes. So. All right, Terry, we’re going to take a break here. And we went. When we get back, we will get into the Browns. So that and more when we come back on Terry’s Talking. We are back on Terry’s Talking. I do want to give our usual plugs for Terry’s newsletter. Comes out every Wednesday at noon. Jammed full of great stuff. Go to cleveland.com Pluto There’s a blue bar at the top. You can subscribe there. So. All right. Well, I guess from the team that’s playing competent lead to the team that is kind of the opposite of that right now. The Cleveland Browns lost 41 to 17 to the Baltimore Ravens on Sunday. A long, bad day on a number of fronts. You were there, Terry. I don’t know what was it like being there? And, and what did you see? I know you’ve been writing about just how embarrassing it was, which was, as you mentioned earlier, Miles Garrett’s term, not yours. Although you probably, you could adopt it too.
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Terry Pluto : Yeah, well, he was embarrassed. Flacco said he was embarrassed. Yeah, I forgot. Who else was embarrassed? They all would have been embarrassed. It was bad. I mean, you get a punt block, the guy runs right up the middle. I guess he ran over Hickman, it looked like when I looked at it. Blocks the punt. Joe in the second half unravel because it’s 10 to 3 at halftime. I mean, still there. And Joe unraveled. And I really think Joe was trying to make some big plays because he’s a little wired that way. But playing in Baltimore, his family was there. He didn’t want to be embarrassed. I mean, that rollout pass he threw was just awful. I mean, he threw it in a double coverage and the game plan, I thought didn’t help anybody. I don’t know if nobody was open or what, but it, even the short passes just seem to go nowhere.
(00:25:15 - 00:26:08)
David Campbell : Yeah, I mean, you know, we, we predicted that the Browns were going to beat the Bengals in Week one and they should have. Right? Like it was if, yeah, if Schmidt makes the kicks, they win that. But like, I, I, I’m having a hard time envisioning that. There’s so many things going on. I, I don’t know when they’re going to win their next game.
(00:26:09 - 00:26:25)
Terry Pluto : Like, and I had a bad feeling going to Baltimore. I forgot what I picked a low scoring game which actually had the Browns just played like a normal game. They would have lost a little scoring game.
(00:26:26 - 00:26:36)
David Campbell : Yeah, it’s just everything again. It’s the NFL, Terry, and we don’t want to like a lot of places have overreaction Monday or whatever. And we don’t want to overreact, but I’m just looking at the way this roster is built and the way things went the other day. And it’s just there’s so much going wrong right now and there’s so much to fix. Like the roster is. Is not good. Like they’re missing the three draft picks from. And more from the desean Watson trade.
(00:26:37 - 00:27:04)
Terry Pluto : Correct. Right.
(00:27:04 - 00:27:05)
David Campbell : They’re starting. Right tackle Jack Conklin missed another game on Sunday with a bad elbow.
(00:27:06 - 00:27:12)
Terry Pluto : I mean, to me, this thing with Conklin, he’s a great guy. They love him. He’s hurt every year.
(00:27:12 - 00:27:18)
David Campbell : Yeah, we talked about it last week, so. And it’s hurt every year. Guys get hurt. But like, this is somebody you were building as one of the.
(00:27:19 - 00:27:25)
Terry Pluto : That’s their fault for.
(00:27:26 - 00:27:27)
David Campbell : For relying on him.
(00:27:28 - 00:27:29)
Terry Pluto : Relying on him? Yes.
(00:27:29 - 00:27:31)
David Campbell : Wyatt teller is making $12 million. He graded out at a 68.8 on PFF the other day. His past blocking has been an issue.
(00:27:31 - 00:27:39)
Terry Pluto : Which would be like, what in English.
(00:27:39 - 00:27:41)
David Campbell : You know, if you’re taking a test is what. How good is a 16, a 68.8. It’s not good. Right. Like anything over 75 or 80 is where you want to be. So Wyatt Tellers is one of your high paid offensive linemen. And he didn’t have a great day either. Denzel Ward, $14.7 million. Your best cornerback, eighth year in the league, and he gets cramps and he plays 20 snaps.
(00:27:41 - 00:28:05)
Terry Pluto : I have questions on that.
(00:28:05 - 00:28:06)
David Campbell : All right, what are your questions?
(00:28:07 - 00:28:08)
Terry Pluto : My question is this. Usually if you have cramps, you go to the bench. You may be out for 15 minutes or whatever, but you’re back. Was there something else going on there? I don’t. I’m just saying because Denzel.
(00:28:08 - 00:28:22)
David Campbell : What?
(00:28:22 - 00:28:22)
Terry Pluto : Denzel is impeccable character. He wants to play.
(00:28:22 - 00:28:26)
David Campbell : Yes.
(00:28:26 - 00:28:27)
Terry Pluto : And so this is not questioning him. I just wonder if there’s something else going on. I don’t know. I just. When was the last time you see. Well, he’s out for the rest of the game of craps. When’s the last time you heard that?
(00:28:27 - 00:28:37)
David Campbell : Well, that’s what kind of like if you’re in your eighth year in the league, like, you should know how to prep for a game like this. You know what the weather is going to be. Right. Like you’d expect that from a rookie. Like, right. Even Duan Jones with a guy that big, you could totally see him getting cramps or something. And he wore out because it was really hot. But like Denzel Ward should know how to prep for a game. Right.
(00:28:37 - 00:28:55)
Terry Pluto : I think I know less or. Like I said, unless there’s something else going on.
(00:28:55 - 00:28:59)
David Campbell : And then when he was out, the times when he was out there, I mean, he’s. He’s become in a lot of ways, a guy who can cover the other team’s best receiver and knock some balls down. Yeah, and that’s what. The other day he. There were a couple place where he could have made a tackle and didn’t. Yeah, he just. He kind of just became a bystander.
(00:29:00 - 00:29:17)
Terry Pluto : And that might have been because something was legs.
(00:29:17 - 00:29:21)
David Campbell : It could be. And also, he’s had a lot of concussions, so. But, like, if this is your best cornerback, I don’t know. I just. The Browns are not getting. Getting enough right now from the guys that are making a lot of money on this team, and he’s one of them. So. I don’t know. Again, I don’t want to overreact, but.
(00:29:21 - 00:29:40)
Terry Pluto : I’m getting some emails about Miles Garrett and this. Miles Garrett’s playing great. They’re still mad about the others. He’s playing great. Just stop. And regardless of whether you didn’t like how he handled the whole thing about holding out or whatever, he never missed a single practice that was required. I made a lot of noise, so. Some stupid stuff, but he’s not the first pro player to make a lot of noise and say some dumb stuff. And then unlike some of them, he showed up and played, and if he really wanted to, you know, credible things he could have done, you know, miss started missing things, force a trade, all that stuff. So Miles has played great. I. I thought great man. Mason Graham looked pretty good.
(00:29:40 - 00:30:31)
David Campbell : Absolutely.
(00:30:33 - 00:30:34)
Terry Pluto : The middle of the line. I mean, what. Derek Henry? What did he have, like, 24 yards or something?
(00:30:34 - 00:30:40)
David Campbell : Yeah, they held him in basically 2 yards of carry.
(00:30:40 - 00:30:42)
Terry Pluto : Yeah. Yeah, 24 yards.
(00:30:42 - 00:30:43)
David Campbell : I thought Grant Delpit played a nice game, too.
(00:30:43 - 00:30:45)
Terry Pluto : Yes. They were 21 for 47 rushing. That’s what. What they were. But, you know, lamar Jackson had four TDs. Cam Mitchell was at least beat three times. So.
(00:30:45 - 00:31:00)
David Campbell : Yeah, so, like, it’s. It’s just. There’s so much to talk about, Terry. Like, so the first part I was trying to kind of lay out is like, they were. They’re relying on guys. They. They went into the season relying on guys that aren’t coming through for them, and those are a few. And the other thing I. That I’m seeing out there, and I want to get your thoughts on this, is that they’re not putting guys In a position to succeed right now the way they should. And there was. There was one play. There was like 11:46 left in the third quarter, and the Browns were down 13 to 3. And they’re at their own 46. Right. It was third and four, and this was the interception. Right. They left. Of all the Browns running backs, who would you want to be assigned to block Roquan Smith on a blitz? One of the best linebackers in the league.
(00:31:03 - 00:31:48)
Terry Pluto : Yeah.
(00:31:48 - 00:31:48)
David Campbell : Who would you want to block him? It’s certain. I think Dylan Sampson will be number three on that list behind. Right behind Ford and Quinshot Judkins, those guys probably. Ford has done it more than anybody. It seems like he’s kind of lost some snaps, but, like, you left a rookie playing a second game out there to block Rokhan Smith on that play, and of course, he missed the block. And that was the play that led to Flacco rolling out and throwing the interception, which was on Flacco, as you pointed out and as he admitted. But if you put Dylan Sampson in that position as a coaching staff, that’s not a. That’s not a great decision to me.
(00:31:48 - 00:32:24)
Terry Pluto : Yeah, he does seem like he’s just trying to pull cards out of a deck and hope to get lucky at times. I mean, maybe Samson was supposed to be a receiver on that play, but it looked like he was in pass walking. I don’t know.
(00:32:25 - 00:32:38)
David Campbell : Yeah. So either he can stay in and make the block, or you can slip him out and throw the ball over the rushing. Yeah, that pass rush, they chose choice A. Yeah. Which was not the right decision. And Joe Flacco had to run for his life. And that was, again, what led to the interception with his bad decision. So I just think there’s. The roster just seems really shaky right now. The young guys are playing well, but like the coaches, a lot of the plays the Browns ran, linebackers were running right into the hole on the running plays, knowing where it was going as soon as they saw the wall snapped. And that implies that there needs to be some more deception to this running game. So they have a lot of work to do if they’re going to win a few more games this season because it’s. It’s all bad right now, except for, like, you know, the young guys.
(00:32:38 - 00:33:21)
Terry Pluto : I mean, that’s the reason people want to put a rookie in there right now is the insane. It would be absolutely crazy. It would be a typical Browns move. Well, we’re sick of quarterbacks, as I wrote. Give me a quarterback, any quarterback. Stop the Pain, put a different guy in there, something else to watch. And you would just end up putting him in there to fail against the type of teams that they are facing coming up. I forgot what the record was. I had something like 51 and 18 or something, the remaining opponents records or something like that. And it would be just ridiculous to. To do that.
(00:33:21 - 00:34:04)
David Campbell : So if this hat. So the Browns are playing Green Bay on Sunday and Green Bay looks like a legit super bowl contender right now. And again it’s September, it’s overreaction under reaction season. But how many more games if, if what happened against the Ravens is duplicated here for the next. How many games of that would you have to see before you would make a quarterback change?
(00:34:05 - 00:34:27)
Terry Pluto : I mean, I mean, look, if Joe’s gonna just be horrible like that, then, you know, you don’t go very long. But I don’t think he’s gonna be horrible in every game. I do think there was. There’s a bit of an asterisk on that whole Baltimore thing with him. I just do. And I don’t know, I, I just. You play 17 games. This team usually plays three or four quarterbacks a year. That’s the old time takes care of things on its own. And we could just. Just wait.
(00:34:27 - 00:34:59)
David Campbell : Yeah, and I’m trying to think like a Browns fan here, Terry. If you, if you watch this team play and they get beat on talent, like that’s one thing. But the stuff, A lot of the stuff that we saw Sunday was, was not that.
(00:35:01 - 00:35:14)
Terry Pluto : And that’s. I mean, you got to wait to see now how are they going to play in the next couple games? Are they going to have punts blocked? Are they have guys that can’t make an extra point? Are they going to blow covered, you know, that kind of stuff or. I mean, frankly. Right. They got beat by Cincinnati. It was a good, well played game on both sides. And the kicking game costume, I mean, that was it. And there was some drop passes. I think I saw some stat. I forgot how many passes it was, but it says your Cleveland Browns are number one in drop passes after two games.
(00:35:14 - 00:35:47)
David Campbell : Man, I, I had a sense that that was true, but I didn’t see the numbers on it yet.
(00:35:50 - 00:35:55)
Terry Pluto : Yeah, I saw it somewhere. One of the supposedly analytics sites had it. So it’s a bit subjective on how they judge versus others, but it sure looked like it.
(00:35:55 - 00:36:06)
David Campbell : Yeah, I just. They’re reevaluating everything in Berea this week in terms of what they’re running, why they’re running it, what everybody’s Job is, you know, and even they had a fourth and 10, I think with about six, a little over six minutes left, they were trying to keep the game alive and it’s 4th and 10. And I, I was watching the play over yesterday. Najoku and Sampson ran one yard past the line of scrimmage and stopped and turn around on 4th and 10. Even if they get the ball, they’re not making the target.
(00:36:07 - 00:36:35)
Terry Pluto : Yeah, yeah.
(00:36:36 - 00:36:36)
David Campbell : And Cedric Tillman is running like a two yard crossing pattern kind of like at half speed and he knows he’s not getting the ball. That ended up in an incompletion of Jerry Judy. So teams that want to make 4th and 10 send guys to draw pass interferences or holding penalties and guys running down the field and turning around. To me, it just, again, it’s about putting your players in a position to have a favorable outcome and having those three guys running one or two yards up the field and. And two of them stop. So anyway, I think we’re going to see a different Browns team on Sunday because there’s.
(00:36:36 - 00:37:10)
Terry Pluto : We go back to my theme for this year. Will they be watch? Will they be watching? They were watchable against the Bengals. Frustrating, but watchable. This thing, this thing should have been turned off early in the third quarter. Don’t let children see it. I mean, this is just one of those disastrous performances. So like you said, Green Bay is really good. Game is in Cleveland. So it’s important for them to do this. But before you start junk in the plan with Flacco on that, you don’t do that after two games, especially when he was only bad in one.
(00:37:10 - 00:37:46)
David Campbell : And I do wonder, Terry, if there were discussions when he was coming here, like, what am, what am I getting into and what are we agreeing on? Right. And, and benching after two games was not on the table. No. At that point. And that’s something that I think they’ve worked out ahead of time. Like we’re gonna, we’re gonna give it the best shot we can.
(00:37:48 - 00:38:03)
Terry Pluto : And I don’t want to hear about. Don’t. Gabriel. That was like a touch football game. That reminded me. Yeah.
(00:38:03 - 00:38:08)
David Campbell : Second teamers.
(00:38:08 - 00:38:08)
Terry Pluto : Right. Of how you watch those practices where, you know, granted, they tackled to the ground, but it was almost the same. Everything was just soft and good for him. He came in and, you know, anytime you’re a rookie, you get the chance to play and you have some success regardless of the circumstances, that. That’s helpful. But that’s it. It’s helpful.
(00:38:09 - 00:38:31)
David Campbell : Okay. So I want to ask you about the Browns defense. I got a couple of numbers here. So the packers have. I found this. It’s a good chart that I grabbed from Sam Hoppin. He’s a data scientist at ESPN bet, but he’s got a chart of defensive explosive play rankings for the NFL. The packers are the number one defense in the league in this. An explosive play counts as anything 15 or more yards. Packers have given up no runs in the first two weeks of more than 15 yards and 3.7 of the passing plays have gone for more than 15 yards. So that’s number one. They’re number one overall in the league. The Browns on this chart are number seven.
(00:38:33 - 00:39:11)
Terry Pluto : Yeah, I would like their top ten. I don’t remember a lot of big plays.
(00:39:12 - 00:39:15)
David Campbell : Yeah. So the Browns have given up no rushing yards. No, no rushing plays over 15 yards. And they 6.7 of the passing plays have gone for over 15 yards. So again, they’re seventh in the league. It goes Packers, Saints, Seahawks, Rams, Broncos, Cardinals, Browns. So are you a believer in this Browns defense this season, Terry? Because we’ve seen, we’ve seen two games of it and we’ve. And we know what the personnel is. You, you believe in these guys?
(00:39:15 - 00:39:38)
Terry Pluto : Yeah, I think they’re good. I’m not saying they’re great, but I think they’re good. But I think you can kill them if you keep making turnovers and can’t stay on the field. But why wouldn’t, why would you just dismiss them other than you’re just mad about everything with the Browns.
(00:39:38 - 00:39:54)
David Campbell : I just am wondering if the offense we saw this last year, if the offense is going three and out, three and out, three and out or five and out. And the defense, the defense can get discouraged. We saw that last year where it was just to the point where they couldn’t get anything out of the offense.
(00:39:56 - 00:40:10)
Terry Pluto : And I think they have more talent though. They have more talent on the line now, though, and, and, and slushing your line back. I think it’s. The front seven is better than it was a year ago.
(00:40:10 - 00:40:20)
David Campbell : I would agree with that.
(00:40:21 - 00:40:22)
Terry Pluto : Okay. And then your other thing is a lot of this is predicated on that you could have a real running game, which they haven’t yet. You know, Quinch and Junkin stats look great. 61 yards and 10 carries. But 31 of those yards came in basically garbage time in the fourth quarter. After that, nobody ran. I think the longest run was Isaiah Bond for nine yards. I think he ran a end around or something and I think then Flacco had an eight yard run or Something it just. They’ve got to figure out how to, how to run the ball. And now I, I don’t. I thought that Baltimore really stacked the line against them and made it difficult, but yet they were able to get a pass rush on Flacco and, and they couldn’t get things down the field. So I, you know, it’s almost like I’m kind of withholding judgment on a lot of thing teams until after I see some more because the Baltimore game, it just went sideways.
(00:40:23 - 00:41:26)
David Campbell : It did. And again the Browns could play really well on Sunday against the packers and still lose. So I think that’s what fans are kind of eager to see how this team bounce back in terms, you know, we’re talking guardians culture. Like what is the culture of the Browns and what we see Sunday could give us some indication of where they’re at as a locker room in an organization. So, so Baker Mayfield last night. Terry, do you want to talk about that for a minute?
(00:41:29 - 00:41:50)
Terry Pluto : Yeah. You knew that was coming on tv. Here it comes. And you know, everybody’s kind of like into the well, what about Baker? And trying to figure out what if, you know, what if, if they have stuck with Baker and that. All right, here’s my what. Not only what I think, but part of what I know about the Baker stuff, number one is I was told by two high ranking people had they not gone after Watson, they would have stayed with Baker. See, they, they became obsessed as an organization with Watson. They could say however you want, but they, they didn’t care that he sat out a year. They didn’t care that he sat out a year after signing a three, a four year contract. He played one year on the new four year contract and sat out. They probably just kept watching Those tapes of 2020 when Watson led the league in passing yardage and was Pro bowl and dreaming and they thought here is a chance comes with baggage but for us to get. And they considered him at least a top five quarterback, if not a top three. And at one point Andrew Berry has said that they also considered him, you know, a ten year answer. And I’m he because he talked about the five year contract. But they would work it out and they viewed it as a ten year thing. So nobody viewed Baker as a ten year answer. So that came. Of course, what happened there was Baker caught the attitude after they went after Watson, asked for a trade before that was even done. And that ended up, they got Watson, they traded Baker, you know, the year before. I agree with the fans who say the Browns should have Benched Baker. I don’t know why to this day they left him out there to take such a beating with that bad shoulder. I mean, you and I used to talk about bringing the case Keenan horse out of the stable on the podcast, which you did about five different times in 21 because the guy was hurt. And then what happened to Baker after that? He went to Carolina. He won the job. He actually had a kind of a high ankle sprain early and things went badly there and they let him go at mid season. Got picked up by the Rams. He had a good game or two. It was kind of good for him to be Sean McVeigh system, to be exposed to that. But they didn’t make him a contract and then he got signed by Tampa Bay, a one year deal. Go for it. But you think back on mistakes that were made. You know, they, they played him when he was hurt, didn’t matter what he said. Just look at the tape. Then the whole Watson thing, the Watson, it just. The Browns get mad at me when I say just how the, this tsunami of title waves keep hitting this franchise from whether it’s the draft picks, the contract, Watson himself coming in. You know, would they have actually really brought back Baker? Would he been better, you know, playing here? Yeah, you were some division in the locker room and that stuff. But sometimes things go away when people play better. Your thoughts?
(00:41:50 - 00:45:11)
David Campbell : Well, so last night they won 29th. There was two Monday night games last night, of course. Baker Mayfield led the bucks to a 2019 win over the Texans. He was 28 of 38 for 215 yards, two passing touchdowns. Boy, and Mecca Ubuka is on his way to a great NFL career, I’ll tell you, out of Ohio State. But it’s, it’s interesting to watch reaction when Baker plays in a high profile game like that and people in Cleveland don’t get to see him every week. But there’s kind of two schools of thought. One is that the Browns made a mistake and should have kept him here because look what he would have become. And the other school of thought is Baker never would have become what he is now if he hadn’t left and gone to the Rams and gone to Caroline and been humbled and realized that he needed to change his off field approach like in terms of getting in shape, better shape. And, and he’s talked about this like prepping for the season and, and, and what he does to get himself ready for games in the season, that he’s a different guy now and he would not be that way if he wouldn’t have had that adversary adversity and, and worked through that. Where do you stand, Terry, on those two schools of thought? One, he, he could have done that here and two, he never would have been that here because he didn’t go.
(00:45:13 - 00:46:24)
Terry Pluto : Through what he had to go through. Through generally, I’m in the. He probably needed to bounce around and get humbled a little bit to play better. But part of me just wonders if he just would have let him bench down when he was hurt, got the surgery and come back healthy. What would that have been? You know, you look at his stats and right now he’s 1. He has a record of 21 and 15 with Tampa Bay. I love this ratio of 74 touchdowns to 26 interceptions. He’s completed almost 67% of his passes, does big time numbers, you know, made pro balls the last two years in Cleveland from 18 through 21 at 92 TDs, 56 interceptions. They had a record of 29 and 30 when he started and completed 62%. Where you really saw what Baker could become was in 2020 here, the first year was Stefanski. He was 11 and 5 as a starter, 26 touchdowns, eight interceptions, completed 63% of his passes. He played winning quarterback very similar to what he’s playing at Tampa Bay. So the question would have been, all right, that was 20, 20, 20, 21. He’s hurt. And then if you just let him get the surgery and come back, Odell would have been gone, you know, sort of the fresh start with the healthy shoulder, how would things have gone? And you know, I think you can make the case, especially now that you see that it would have been better. And so that’s, that’s one of those big what ifs. But the meantime, the obsession with Watson totally wiped out Baker. Now there were clearly doubts about Baker even after his good season in 20, because they never did make a much of an offer for a contract extension. And there you go.
(00:46:24 - 00:48:38)
David Campbell : And I’m guessing that they thought the, the relationship was beyond repair when Baker was going after the coaches for not making adjustments and all that stuff. That kind of did not help either. That kind of help.
(00:48:39 - 00:48:50)
Terry Pluto : No, it doesn’t. And that’s one of those things where you sit him down and say, look, this is your deal. You’re in the last year of a contract because he wasn’t 22 and, and you better shape up. This is your chance to make some money and revive your career or not. And I mean, but I’m just. The Watson thing drove so much there they were just. I remember Andrew Barry saying at the 1 contra 1 press conference when they signed them, well, this is a five year audit. It was a five month odyssey to, you know, do this. And then if you rolled it back, that rolled all the way back into the 20, 21 season, that was still going on. It was, it was just nuts. I, I’m, I’m sorry, I just can’t. The, the.
(00:48:50 - 00:49:42)
David Campbell : No, the repercussions are going to be felt for years. It’s one of those five to ten year decisions that sets a. Yeah, he.
(00:49:44 - 00:49:49)
Terry Pluto : Was right about that. That was correct. It was a five to ten year move. And, you know, so Baker, why did you think, what do you think about Chubb?
(00:49:49 - 00:49:57)
David Campbell : I think he’s going to be fine for the Texans. He had a nice touchdown run last night, but the hole was huge and he ran through it and a lot of backs would have done that. I hope he has all the success in the world because I think he deserves it.
(00:49:59 - 00:50:09)
Terry Pluto : Right? I mean, he does. He still doesn’t look like the old Nick Chubb. I mean, at the 25 yard run there, his other 11 other 11 carries equaled 18 yards. Now, I thought Tampa, Tampa Bay’s got a good defense. I mean, those guys, that game was really hard hitting. I mean, there were some men playing in that game and that was C.J. stroud. You could say he was struggling. You know, Baker added this. I, I really had. You know, when Baker gets into that toughness mode and things where he, he kind of just wills himself and, and it carries on to his teammates. Because we saw some of those games in Cleveland. That’s where. That’s the Baker Mayfield that John Dorsey drafted. That was the one he envisioned.
(00:50:09 - 00:50:50)
David Campbell : Oh, that scramble he had last night where he got flipped up in the air helicopter.
(00:50:50 - 00:50:54)
Terry Pluto : Just in general, you know, that just the way he. I mean, right now he’s thrown five touchdown passes and no interceptions. You know, the, they were able. And the guy who first started got him out of throwing all those interceptions was Stefanski in 20, because before that I think he threw like 18 or something, like with Freddie Kitchens. And part of Baker’s mentality at that point was, I’m a gunslinger and, you know, interceptions are part of the deal and they were able to wean him off that. That’s something you just, it’s like, you don’t know. He had one healthy, healthy good year with Stefanski and then one hurt year where he was bad and things were. The whole franchise was there. But I, they were driven to. I got to get to the Super Bowl. And how much of the trying to make a big play for Watson also was driven by. We got to this great quarterback because we’re going to make a big play for the stadium. I think that might have entered into it. They’ll never say that. Just like they’ll never say a lot of things that are fairly obvious to those of us who watch this.
(00:50:54 - 00:52:01)
David Campbell : All right, well, the Browns are back at it, as we said Sunday down on the lakefront against the packers. And then they have a road game against the Lions in Detroit and then they will be heading to London to take on the vikings in a 9:30 eastern morning kickoff. And JJ McCarthy, by the way, we.
(00:52:04 - 00:52:19)
Terry Pluto : Have to give them credit because we talked about him a lot last week was Andre Smith.
(00:52:19 - 00:52:24)
David Campbell : Oh, yeah.
(00:52:25 - 00:52:25)
Terry Pluto : I got out there, kicked his. What do you have, two extra points? And he kicked a field goal.
(00:52:25 - 00:52:31)
David Campbell : Yep.
(00:52:31 - 00:52:32)
Terry Pluto : And no problem. Yeah. I mean, you could say there wasn’t a close game or whatever. He knew he was kicking for his life. He goes out there and starts banging stuff off the crossbar or wide right again. They’ll have kicker Tuesday, that’s for sure.
(00:52:32 - 00:52:48)
David Campbell : And yeah, again, I want to go back to the overreaction thing, Terry, and it’s week two. Right. But like, the. There’s a lot of things going on that we saw Sunday that just. I. How are they going to get better? Right. That’s the question. And I think there’s some things that are fixable, but there’s some things that aren’t. Like the injuries and if the guy’s not there and the offensive line, like if Jane, if Jack Conklin’s going to miss a bunch of games. Like, those are. Those are serious problems going forward that are going to cost them some wins. But that’s what this season is. Right? It’s kind of.
(00:52:49 - 00:53:19)
Terry Pluto : They’re all going to be exposed early because of the opponents. Yeah, that’s a big thing. I mean, they were opening up with Las Vegas and I forgot who else they have later on, you know, a number of the Dolphins, don’t they have the. The Giants and, you know those New England.
(00:53:20 - 00:53:36)
David Campbell : Yeah, they have New England. I don’t think they have the Giants.
(00:53:36 - 00:53:38)
Terry Pluto : Okay.
(00:53:39 - 00:53:39)
David Campbell : But they do have New England and Miami coming.
(00:53:39 - 00:53:41)
Terry Pluto : Is it the Jets? They got a trip.
(00:53:41 - 00:53:42)
David Campbell : They have the Jets. Yeah.
(00:53:42 - 00:53:43)
Terry Pluto : Because I know it’s a trip I’m skipping, so that’s why I forgot which one it was. Either way. So we’ll see.
(00:53:43 - 00:53:49)
David Campbell : Same place. It’s at the same stadium, so. All right, Terry, you had A column over the weekend about the Cavs, including Donovan Mitchell, putting together kind of a three day weekend. I don’t know if it was a weekend or not, but it was kind of a mini camp for players out in New York. I don’t know. Why don’t you bring everybody up to speed on what you’re hearing about the game?
(00:53:49 - 00:54:06)
Terry Pluto : Yeah, talking about that. Apparently it’s the second time Donna’s done this. He did one early in the summer in Los Angeles or Malibu or somewhere and brought the guys in and just about all of them showed up and it’s the same thing that happened again. The interesting thing about that is, you know, they are. Coaches are not allowed to run this, but I really think Donovan is talking to the coaches and they’re practicing some of the things that we’re going to see later on.
(00:54:06 - 00:54:36)
David Campbell : It’s like the old captain’s practice in high school. The captains run the practice, right?
(00:54:36 - 00:54:40)
Terry Pluto : Yeah, they did exactly that.
(00:54:40 - 00:54:41)
David Campbell : Yeah.
(00:54:41 - 00:54:41)
Terry Pluto : And you know, right now you have to figure, you know, Darius Garland’s out 10 to 20 games. That’s what I’m thinking, you know, with this toe thing. And then Streuss is out a couple months with foot surgery. So how are they going to deal with that? What I’m hearing the plan is, well, Donovan will be the point guard like he was a couple years ago when Garland would was hurt. And you’re, they’re probably going to then try to figure out, you know, who’s going to play next to him. But they’re, they’re really looking at DeAndre Hunter as the small forward. They want to start him and Meryl probably at shooting guard. And this is to, to see how this goes and try and, you know, keep everybody healthy. You go back to, I mean last year, nobody averaged more than 32 minutes a game. There was only one game, I believe a regular 48 minute game where anybody. It was Donovan Mitchell played more than 40 minutes. They followed the textbook of don’t overuse your guys in the regular season and so they’ll be healthy in the playoffs. And of course they got to the playoffs, a bunch of guys got hurt anyway, which is maddening. And they’re trying to figure out, all right, we need to be, I was told this stronger endurance. Indiana not only showed the Cavs lacked it, they also showed Milwaukee lacked it and they showed New York lacked it. And they nearly showed Oklahoma City, who’s really athletic, lacked it because just the way their pace, the Pacers get the ball over half court. This is Mike Fratello’s. Stat that he had faster than any other team in the regular season. And Mike also told me they threw more passes per possession or something than any other team because he said those are two of his favorite stats. He told me all that before the playoffs for help me with my, my preview. And it turned out to be right because he kept saying they are right now. They’re, they’re in a great position, they are really hard to defend and teams are not ready for what they’re going to throw at them, what, what Carlisle transformed them into. So. But Oklahoma City also plays some of that too. So that’s why the Cavs are going to try to be. See, there’s two versions of toughness, David. One is you’re in there and you’re knocking guys over. I mean, the Cavs dominated the boards against Indiana. That was not the problem. There was some rebounds on the missed free throws and things that really hurt. But I mean they, they double the offensive rebounding 70 to 35 and they generally out rebounded them almost every game. But the other part of toughness is your endurance. How do you do when you’re tired, when you’re wearing down, when they’re in your grill and they’re just all over the place and that’s where the calves really came up short and you can’t.
(00:54:42 - 00:57:44)
David Campbell : Do that if you’re not in incredible shape. So it sounds like from what you’re hearing, they’re going to be running a lot more and making sure that they’re able to play that way. So.
(00:57:44 - 00:57:52)
Terry Pluto : Right. And they’re looking at all the sports science stuff and things to do and how to, how to handle that. It’s, it’s, it’s interesting to listen to me to that, by the way, Kathleen Thompson, one of our favorite listeners, she did read my story and I do see where Kathleen’s coming from. She liked DeAndre Hunter coming off the bench because he is a factor. But I know that they’re saying, well, how do we do this? If you play Merrill, then, you know, do you play Merrill at forward and then do you play. I don’t know who at shooting guard? I mean, what do you, what do you do?
(00:57:52 - 00:58:26)
David Campbell : Yeah, the rotation is going to be so different in the playoffs than it is at the start of the season.
(00:58:26 - 00:58:29)
Terry Pluto : Because right now here with the injury. So they’re trying. Because I know that one of the things the Cowboys say is people say, well, you won 64 games. It doesn’t mean anything would happen in the playoffs, but you still have to win a certain Amount of games to be positioned correctly for the playoffs. And that’s. That’s the big there. But The Cavs won 64 games without playing to win 64 games. Yeah, I mean, that. You look at their minutes and guys getting rest. That’s not what you do when you want to go win 64 games. It’s like when you say, well, let’s win the low 50s and make the playoffs.
(00:58:29 - 00:59:04)
David Campbell : Well, and this is going to be. This season is going to be a totally new animal for Jalen Tyson. Like, getting playoff ready is going to be one of the missions of the regular season, too. So, yeah, there’s. There’s some stuff they’re going to need to take care of during the regular.
(00:59:04 - 00:59:17)
Terry Pluto : Season to make sure you can correct Porter Jr. Finally. I’ve liked him for a while, you know, step up and. And really help them at the point guard spot.
(00:59:17 - 00:59:28)
David Campbell : Yeah.
(00:59:28 - 00:59:29)
Terry Pluto : Because. Because he’s needed. And we’ll have to see, you know, how Darius is now here. He’s working out and doing all these things. But this is a very significant toe surgery he had. I mean, it wasn’t like. And you hear toe. There was an article that an NBA person sent me about NFL turf toe and how damaging that is to a lot of players, and now they’re developing some surgeries for it and things like that. But it’s been one of those things that have been really kind of, oh.
(00:59:29 - 00:59:59)
David Campbell : Well, look at Joe Burrow. That’s. He’s going to be out, what, three months?
(00:59:59 - 01:00:02)
Terry Pluto : Yeah, yeah. And that assumes that. Are they doing surgery on him? Did it say?
(01:00:02 - 01:00:06)
David Campbell : Yeah, sounds like it.
(01:00:06 - 01:00:08)
Terry Pluto : It assumes he recovers correctly.
(01:00:08 - 01:00:10)
David Campbell : Right.
(01:00:10 - 01:00:10)
Terry Pluto : And that. So it was fun. I wanted something else for this weekend. It was fun to get the calves in the paper. Cool.
(01:00:10 - 01:00:18)
David Campbell : Well, the Cavs have their media day actually on the 29th, which is coming up pretty fast. And then the next day, they’re going to head down to Florida for, like, almost a week of training camp. So Chris Fedor, our colleague, will be down there covering all that. So it’s coming up fast. NBA basketball at the end of this month, so. All right, we got a few emails to wrap up here. You ready?
(01:00:18 - 01:00:36)
Terry Pluto : Yes.
(01:00:36 - 01:00:37)
David Campbell : All right, this first one is from Bruce C. We were talking last week, Terry, about Syracuse football coach Fran Brown running his team after they beat UConn because he didn’t like the way they were kind of not hustling during the game. In and out of the huddle, into the sidelines. And Bruce writes in and he says, Fran Brown should have run sprints. For his part in the game.
(01:00:37 - 01:00:53)
Terry Pluto : If he had.
(01:00:54 - 01:00:54)
David Campbell : If he had taken the three point points each time, the last minute field goal by Yukon would have been moot. Fran, if you want to talk responsibility, grow up and make better game time.
(01:00:54 - 01:01:03)
Terry Pluto : Decisions, maybe you should have been running with the guys.
(01:01:03 - 01:01:07)
David Campbell : There you go. Yeah. So. All right, here’s. We’ve been talking a lot about nicknames the last few weeks, and we have one from longtime listener Steve Ronsky from Illinois. And Steve says one of the best nicknames I’ve heard was from a guy named Bob Ferguson who played in the 1870s and 1880s. His nickname was Death to Flying Things. How he got that, I don’t know. Maybe an erratic throwing arm or a penchant for hitting pop ups. It seems that nickname would apply to Randy Johnson as well. Randy Johnson killed a bird one time in a game.
(01:01:07 - 01:01:39)
Terry Pluto : Right.
(01:01:39 - 01:01:39)
David Campbell : I was curious about this, so I looked it up and there’s actually three guys who had the nickname Death to Flying Things. From what I could find. And some, you know, nicknames are not like, factual, you know, where it’s date of birth or something, because they’re kind of. They kind of come and go. But Bob Ferguson was one. There was a guy named Jack Chapman who played in 1874 and 1875. And then a former Cleveland player, Franklin Gutierrez, had it.
(01:01:43 - 01:02:05)
Terry Pluto : Michael Gutierrez? Yeah.
(01:02:05 - 01:02:06)
David Campbell : They used to call him Death the Flying Things. I had never heard that. Did you? He played?
(01:02:06 - 01:02:10)
Terry Pluto : No. I mean, I used to like the O line, you know, where center field, even with miles straw, they would say, you know, we’re flying or fly balls go to die. I kind of like that. But yeah, it’s just.
(01:02:10 - 01:02:22)
David Campbell : I think I was in a fantasy league one time with somebody who named their team Death to Flying Things. And I never knew what that was about. And now I know. So. Thanks for filling us in on that, Steve.
(01:02:22 - 01:02:30)
Terry Pluto : Okay.
(01:02:30 - 01:02:31)
David Campbell : All right. And here’s the last one. This one is from Steve Van Aker. And Steve says to me, baseball has the best nicknames. One of my favorites was from the late 1970s with the San Diego Padres. The player was Doug Guads and it’s G, W, O, D, S, Z. I don’t know if you remember him, Terry. His nickname, his nickname was I Chart.
(01:02:31 - 01:02:49)
Terry Pluto : Yeah. Because of just the way it was spelled.
(01:02:51 - 01:02:53)
David Campbell : Yeah. Yeah. And Steve’s email got me thinking. There’s a guy who plays defense for the Montreal Canadiens. His name is Arbor Jackeye and his last name is X, H, E, K, A J. And his nickname is Wi Fi. Oh, that’s pretty Good, because it’s like a Wi fi.
(01:02:53 - 01:03:10)
Terry Pluto : Yeah, it is. And also Jackey Wi fi sort of rhymes.
(01:03:11 - 01:03:15)
David Campbell : Yeah. Yes. I thought that was a good idea. That might have come from Paul Bisson at. On his hockey podcast or something. He’s got a famous hockey podcast, but that made me think of it. So thanks for that email, Steve. Yeah, so I think that’s it. Hey, just a quick reminder, if you want to hit us with comments, questions, thoughts about the podcast, the best way to do that is hit us@sports cleveland.com and put Terry’s talking in the subject line. So. All right. That’s all I got. You got anything else to add, Terry?
(01:03:15 - 01:03:42)
Terry Pluto : I am done. All right.
(01:03:42 - 01:03:44)
David Campbell : I do want to mention, Terry, I read your Faith in you column for the weekend, and I know you whenever you’re out toward Baltimore, you stop at Antietam battlefield, and it’s a really interesting historical look at last words when people are dying. And I just wanted to tell people to check that out on Saturday.
(01:03:44 - 01:04:01)
Terry Pluto : Yeah.
(01:04:01 - 01:04:01)
David Campbell : Sunday’s plane dealer.
(01:04:03 - 01:04:03)
Terry Pluto : So Jesse Reno, the general there. And actually while Antietam was on September 17th, which is Roberta and I’s 48th anniversary, trapsing around some battlefields three days before that, there’s a thing called the Campaign of South Mountain, which is near there. It’s a fabulous place to go. It’s along the old Appalachian Trail. There’s three smaller pictures, battlefields, and just really good history. And I just am fascinated by that whole time. And this guy with Reno, I mean, he, this is classmates at West Point. One of them was Stonewall Jackson, a Confederate. Another guy was McClellan, his boss. And it was just it. We’ve never had anything like that where the country was so divided because I, you know that one of my things is people. It’s never been worse than this or whatever. I’m not saying it’s great, but you go back and look at that stuff and, and it’s incredible.
(01:04:03 - 01:05:07)
David Campbell : So, yeah, brothers fighting brothers. And so check that out. That column again Saturday on cleveland.com it’ll be on Sunday’s Plain Dealer. Oh, and one thing about Reno, that there was a just a little tidbit in there, Terry, that his son invented the first first escalator.
(01:05:07 - 01:05:21)
Terry Pluto : How about that?
(01:05:21 - 01:05:21)
David Campbell : Yeah. Isn’t that something?
(01:05:21 - 01:05:22)
Terry Pluto : Yeah, that’s. And you know, the tough time you think there he had five children. Only two made it to adulthood. You could look at Long street and a bunch of other. He was a Confederate general and some others. And the, the amount of, it’s like half the kids died before they got to be 18. It just.
(01:05:23 - 01:05:43)
David Campbell : It’s awful.
(01:05:43 - 01:05:43)
Terry Pluto : Such a different time. Yeah.
(01:05:43 - 01:05:45)
David Campbell : Yeah. Yeah. All right, thanks, everybody, for listening. We will be back next week. We’ll be talking about Browns, Packers. We’ll see how the Guardians are doing, and we will see you then. I’m Terry’s talk.
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