CLEVELAND, Ohio — In this episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast, Ethan Sands, Chris Fedor and Jimmy Watkins focus on the Cavs’ bench depth and offensive strategy.
Takeaways:
1. Lonzo Ball is the High-Risk, High-Reward Linchpin
Lonzo Ball is considered the most important bench player, poised to be a stabilizing force for the second unit. The panel views him as a blend of Isaac Okoro’s defensive disruption and Ty Jerome’s offensive skills, without being a liability on either end. His elite transition passing, court vision, and ability to break down defenses are expected to elevate the team’s pace and unlock new offensive dimensions. However, this optimism is tempered by immense concern over his extensive injury history. The speakers believe the team’s success hinges significantly on his availability, making the reliance on him a major gamble, as they effectively lost two rotation players (Okoro and Jerome) to acquire one injury-prone, albeit highly impactful, player.
2. Second Unit Identity Hinges on Evan Mobley and Unproven Depth
Beyond Lonzo Ball, the Cavaliers’ bench depth is a significant question mark compared to last season’s reliable unit. While the top nine in the rotation are set, there’s concern about consistency from players like Jaylon Tyson, Dean Wade, and Larry Nance Jr. To counter a potential offensive drop-off in the second unit, the team plans to make Evan Mobley the “linchpin” of those lineups. By staggering his minutes with Donovan Mitchell and Jarrett Allen, the Cavs aim to run the bench offense through Mobley, providing him with crucial in-game development time and giving the unit a consistent, reliable offensive hub to build around.
3. Offensive Philosophy Accepts Higher Turnovers for a Faster Pace
The hosts discussed the team’s offensive identity under coach Kenny Atkinson, which emphasizes a high-movement, fast-paced system reminiscent of the Golden State Warriors dynasty. This philosophy encourages making the “extra pass” to turn a good shot into a great one and prioritizes playing with tempo. The panel acknowledges this aggressive style will likely lead to a higher number of turnovers, a departure from the team’s more careful approach last season. However, they believe the coaching staff will accept these “good turnovers” as long as they are a byproduct of a dynamic, free-flowing offense that keeps defenses in a constant state of pressure and generates high-quality scoring opportunities.
4. 3-Point Shooting is a Potential Strength Despite Questions
While the Cavs were one of the league’s best three-point shooting teams last season, there are questions about their ability to replicate that success. The panel wonders if players like De’Andre Hunter and Larry Nance Jr. can sustain their career-high percentages and notes that unproven shooters like Dean Wade and Jaylon Tyson will have to prove they can make defenses pay. The absence of Max Strus and Darius Garland to start the season further complicates the picture. Despite this, the consensus is that the team’s offensive system is designed to create high-quality, open looks. With the current personnel, the belief remains that the Cavaliers have the firepower to be a top-five three-point shooting team.
5. Dean Wade’s Future with the Cavaliers is Uncertain
The podcast confirmed that no contract extension negotiations occurred between the Cavaliers and Dean Wade, who will be an unrestricted free agent next summer. His future with the team is cloudy, caught between the organization’s long-standing belief in him and his struggles with injuries and inconsistent confidence. With players like De’Andre Hunter, Max Strus, and Jaylon Tyson now in the wing rotation, Wade’s long-term role is unclear. The panel suggests his opportunity at the start of the season could serve as an “audition” for other teams. It is likely his future will be decided in free agency, where the open market will ultimately determine his financial value and next destination.
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Transcript
NOTE: This transcript was generated by artificial intelligence and could contain misspellings and errors.
Ethan Sands: What up Cavs Nation? I’m your host, Ethan Sands, and I’m back with another episode of the Want and Gold Talk podcast. Joining me today, Jimmy Watkins, cleveland.com columnist and also, we cannot do a Hey, Chris episode without the man, the myth, the legend. Chris Fedor, cleveland.com Cavs beat reporter and yes, we know it’s been a couple of weeks since we’ve done a hey Chris episode. Gotten the questions from our subtexters, but it is that time again as the regular season is right around the corner with Wednesday marking game one of the 82 game regular season stretch in New York against the New York Knicks. Guys, I know we talked about the preseason. Can’t be too excited for those games because we’re learning minuscule things and things behind the scenes and things you actually have to pay attention to. But now I’m excited and I think I’m allowed to be. And of course, my most excitement comes from answering questions directly from our subtexters who get daily insight from us. And here is the first question of today’s podcast from Rollin in Canton, Ohio. He says, I was at the game yesterday and went with a person that wasn’t keen on Lonzo Ball at all. Being a fan of LBi, presented his virtues and vices pregame, then ball bald last night. My aunt is coming around. I say all this to say who will be the Cavs most important bench player this year. I think you can guess my answer, Chris. Just Jimmy. Who do you guys think is going to be the biggest piece off the bench for the Cleveland Cavaliers?
Chris Fedor: First of all, I love the fact that, that it started with I was there with somebody and then he straight outed his aunt. That progressed in a way that I didn’t expect. Nonetheless. Yeah, I mean I, I think it’s hard to argue against Lonzo just, just given the domino effect of of Lonzo Ball this off season. I think Larry Nance Jr. Is obviously going to be important. He provides versatility at both ends of the floor. But if, if you think about the Cavs off season, by NBA standards, it was very, very sleepy. They didn’t have these big splashy moves. But Lonzo Ball is the kind of guy I think that can take them to the next level. I’ve talked in the past on this podcast about the kind of impact that he can have for this team and I look at it very similar to what Alex Caruso was able to do for OKC and what Drew Holiday was able to do for the Boston Celtics. I think Lonzo can be that kind of stabilizing force for the second unit at both ends of the floor. He’s great in transition. The Cavs want to play with pace and tempo. He sees things in advance that make it sometimes hard for his own teammates to understand when the ball is coming their way. He can break down defenses with his mind. He can shoot from the outside. And if you think about it, you know, as the Cavs were mapping out their off season and trying to figure out, what are we going to do in the face of all these financial limitations that we have with the luxury tax and with the aprons, can we bring back Ty Jerome? Do we bring back Sarah Sam Merrill? What do we do with Isaac Kakoro? What do we do with Dean Wade? As they were mapping out their off season, you know, they felt like Lonzo was a little bit of Isaac Koro and a little bit of Ty Jeruk, and. And they were okay moving on from both of those guys, in part because Lonzo’s not the offensive liability that Isaac is, and he’s certainly not the defensive liability that Ty is. He does a little bit of playmaking, a little bit of scooting, a little bit of scoring. You saw that in the preseason finale. And then on the defensive end of the floor, he’s not the same type of defender that Isaac is, but he can be a disruptive defender. He can be a plus defender for this team. He can be somebody who can get into the passing lanes, get deflections, get steals, get them out in transition. So, you know, given the role that he’s going to have and given the excitement that was surrounding him when. When they made the deal that they did, and then that excitement continued to build with off season workouts and training camp and then, of course, the preseason finale. It. It’s hard for me to look in a different direction other than Lonzo.
Jimmy Watkins: The more we talk about Lonzo, kind of the more I’m worried. Doesn’t it feel like a lot of things with this Cavs team hinges on Lonzo? Such as, okay, you lose. So in a vacuum, you lose Isaac Koro in Ty Jerome. Chris just said, and this is smart, by the way, because I think this is true. Lonzo is a little tied Jerome and a little Isaac Coro. Look at us. We just replaced two players with one and saved some money. But this guy doesn’t play. He doesn’t play. And so what if you then just lost two players? So let’s say Lonzo Ball plays, like, 55 games.
Ethan Sands: Yeah.
Jimmy Watkins: Which is probably the Upper end of what he would be able to play because I don’t, I don’t think he’s going to play back to backs, like borderline at all. They might try at the end of the year, but as I’ve said before, you don’t play back to backs in the playoffs. Why would you need to give that a test run? I don’t understand it. I don’t think they’re going to do it.
Chris Fedor: And there are 14 sets of those. So already do the math on that, right?
Jimmy Watkins: So we’re already at 68 there and there’s going to be more maintenance. There’s going to be three and five nights. There’s going to be nights where Lonzo is just feeling a little creaky. Anytime Lonzo lands awkwardly, anytime Lonzo feels soreness and this is going to happen. Given the amount of injuries this guy has been through, they’re going to exercise caution. So take Lonzo out of the rotation. But even I’m saying, even like for a playoff series, say sprains an ankle, say he has his thumb pop out or something, all of a sudden I’m looking around like, who’s playing, who’s guarding defense, who’s guarding perimeter guys? Like, it’s De’Andre Hunter, who I trust. Fine. But then we’re talking about, talking about one way players. We’re talking about Dean Wade again. I think we’re kind of past the, the Dean Wade as like a major part of a playoff rotation stage of this team. We’re looking at Max Strus. Fricking love Max Strus. He’s about all the right things. He has an incredible mindset. If The Cavs had 12 Max Strust brains in their locker room, they would have already been to the conference finals.
Ethan Sands: At least.
Jimmy Watkins: He’s great. He just can’t keep up with some of these quicker guys. And he’s not big enough to stay with some of the bigger guys. He’s kind of caught in the middle, right? He plays really hard, he fights. We know what the deal is next week on defense. Samuel Pat, passable on defense. But Jaylon Tyson, like, are we, are we really thinking Jalen Tyson’s a reliable playoff rotation? It just feels like that if you take Lonzo out of the equation and you know, you could argue that’s not fair. Any team, you take a key piece out of their rotation, it hinders them. But I’m sorry, it’s, it’s just, it’s a little bit more fair to me when the guy that I’m taking out of the rotation is often taken out of the rotation. So I agree. I’ve also loved the auntie reveal. You got Auntie A Smith in the stands hating on Lonzo. Don’t do that, Auntie. He’s. He’s a connector. You have to watch closely to understand Lonzo. By the way, watching Lonzo’s passing highlight reel from last oh, man, if you move, he’s one of those guys and it’s like, it’s a cliche, but it’s cliche for a reason. There’s not a ton of the. I feel like this is like a dying art. Like a guy. Of course there’s superstars, Luka, LeBron. If you move, they’ll find you. But a guy with as low a usage as Lonzo, who’s really just out here trying to get his teammates involved, you don’t see it every day anymore. And it’s so refreshing when you do. Sometimes you get a little frustrated when he looks to pass so much, but, man, when it works, when you’re cutting. Do you think the Cavs moved a lot last year by virtue of Lonzo being on the floor? And again, I want to make it clear I hope Lonzo’s on the floor. He’s awesome to watch. One of my favorite players to watch in the NBA. The Cavs will move even more because they’re going to learn even more that when I move, this guy sees me, he might see it before I see it. Right? So all. All that to say, I agree Lonzo is the most important bench piece, but that makes me really fricking nervous, especially when, like, is he even a bench piece? Like. Or I think this is a guy we’re talking about closing games at the end of playoff games in certain instances. And yes, maybe he won’t start and maybe he won’t play starter minutes all the time, but he’s more than just like, all right, let me tap you on the knee at the chair. We’re going to need you to come in and give us five to seven good minutes. Like, this is a core piece, a potential solution to multiple problems the Cavs thought they had last year.
Ethan Sands: So, Jimmy, to your point there, I think Lonzo is the obvious answer here, right? And because we haven’t seen what he’s capable of with this Cavs offense, with this Cavs defense. But I do also think you mentioned Jaylon Tyson and Dean Wade, and if I’m going in a non obvious way, those are the two guys that I have my eyes on the most when it comes to the season? Sure. To your point, Jimmy, we’ve seen more of Dean Wade and maybe that’s just who Dean Wade is. But Jaylon Tyson coming into year two, getting more responsibility, being a guy that Kenny Atkinson trusts on the defensive end of the floor. So someone who is 6 foot 6 who can move his feet to not only guard guards but also hang with and bang with some of the small forwards and power forwards in the league, I think he’s a guy that you would look for off the bench, especially in the rotation, especially in this offense when we’re talking about Max struse is out, De’Andre Hunter can’t play all the small forward minutes. Who else is there going to be to step into this limelight, to step into these roles? And if it’s not going to be Dean Wade, Jaylon Tyson is definitely the guy that I have my eyes on coming into the season because of the responsibilities that are going to come his way, the opportunities that are going to be there because of the lack of small forward depth on this team, but also the understanding of what the work he’s put in entering this year and what the talk has been around him coming into training camp, after preseason, after summer league. And also just the talk not only from the coaching staff but from the players themselves and saying that he is ready to step into this next role. Not necessarily saying that we haven’t seen it, but if you’ve been with the guy all summer, you know more than we would after four preseason games.
Chris Fedor: I think the reality of, of the situation for the Cavs, especially at the beginning of the season when they’re still trying to navigate the, the Darius Garland absence and the Max Str absence is that after their top nine, it gets car of dicey. Right? I mean they feel good about their nine and I think the nine are, are very, very obvious. Lonzo six, Dean Wade seven, Jaylen Tyson eight, Larry Nin Jr. Nine and then Craig Porter Jr’s ten. But like after that, without Max, without Darius, it gets pretty dicey pretty quickly. So those nine, the top nine in the rotation, are going to have to be impactful, consistently impactful for the Cavs. Now. Yeah, it helps that you have All Star MVP candidate Donovan Mitchell, you have all star MVP candidate Evan Mobley and you’re going to thrust more on those guys. And it feels like Sam Merrill is ready to step into more of an expanded role, especially in the starting lineup. And we’ve already touched on just the differences with this De’Andre Hunter versus last De’Andre Hunter. But I mean Dean Jalen Lonzo, Larry. They have a big responsibility to the success of this team because the Cavs bench was one of the most reliable and most productive bench units in the entire NBA last year. And now we’re going into a season saying, well, which one of these guys is going to pick up the slack? Can any of them consistently pick up the slack? And I think it’s going to be fascinating to see it at the beginning of the season. And I would expect a whole bunch of growing pains from a rotation standpoint, from a minute allocation standpoint, all that stuff with Kenny Atkinson trying to figure that out. And I would expect growing pains from some of these guys who are thrust into roles that are a little bit different for them.
Jimmy Watkins: I would also add that I would expect in those second unit lines, particularly at the beginning of the season, for the Cavs to lean defense to help fuel their transition game and help get them moving against other teams. Because when that second unit, particularly without Darius, has to run half court offense, I mean, what are we doing? You run a lot of flowy motion stuff and teams will make mistakes on that. But when it’s time to like it gets late clock. I mean it depends on who’s out there, but I’ll be fascinated to see who they throw the ball to. We’ve talked about this before. I think Kenny needs to get away from the idea of Donovan and Evan need to play as many win that’s on the court together as possible. We need, that’s, that’s a prime Evan Mobley on court, like in game development time. I think that would be great. I also think that over the course of the regular season at the very least. When I was talking before about the Lonzo Linchpin thing, I was talking more playoffs. I’m thinking 16 games. I think Jaylon Tyson, Dean Wade, those guys are fine. Over the course of 82 games, we kind of already know that about Dean Wade. We’re still waiting to see it over Jalen Tyson, as I’ve mentioned before on the pod, I think his bright eyed, bushy tailed nature to, you know, my first, my first NBA role, my first real NBA role can be a welcomed injection of energy to the rest of the guys who are kind of slogging through the regular season. I think that’s a real thing. I think that can be infectious. But what I don’t want people to focus too much on this year is like counting bench points and being like, wow, the Cavs have taken such a huge step back with their second unit because Ty Jerome is a One of a kind bucket off the bench. Or at least he was last year in the NBA. One of a kind bucket. You’re not going to find too many guys who are coming off the bench as consistently as he was and being able to command an offense the way he was. Right. But what you can see is what I’m envisioning at least Lonzo Ball grabbing rebounds, pushing the offense, running the show, finding cutters the way he was in the, in the preseason finale and then starters filling in the gaps. Right. So I think the Cavs second unit lineups could still be very good from like a offensive defensive rating perspective, even if their bench points go down. But like Chris said, you just have to. There’s going to be a little bit of a, a feeling out process.
Chris Fedor: I think it’s entirely possible that the best and perhaps most correct answer to this question is Evan Mobley. Evan Mobley is a de facto backup center. Evan Mobley running the second unit because I think the rotation is going to be Donovan and Jared Allen checking out around the 6ish minute mark of the first quarter and then Dean Wade, Lonzo Ball, the other backups start sprinkling in there. But, but Evan Mobley as the linchpin of those second units. Instead of Donovan Mitchell being the linchpin of those second units or Darius Garland being the linchpin of the second units, it’s going to be more Evan Mobley. And then after Evan Mobley does that for the duration of the first quarter, then you start the second quarter and then Donovan Mitchell comes back in. So I think the staggering of Evan and Donovan is going to be critical for the Cavs, especially at the beginning of the season. I think Kenny Atkinson recognizes that and I think Evan leading those second units, not only is that going to be good for him, but I think that’s the best source of consistent, reliable offense that the Cavs are going to find. Because I know Dean Wade had what, 15 points in the preseason finale, but you know he’s more of a 6 point per game guy, right? Lonzo’s probably like 8 to 10 point per game type. Maybe that’s on the high end with him. So you know, if you, if you can run those second units through Evan Mobley, I think that is a smart source of consistent offense for the Cavs.
Ethan Sands: And we’ve talked a lot about the passing game when it comes to this Cleveland Cavaliers team, even more so than last year, getting the ball up in transition is a huge part of their offense. But Jimmy, you also mentioned the unselfish nature that some of the Cavs players have and sometimes that could be bad in some cases. And that gets into the next question from Daniel in Seattle, who says few things are as fun to watch as the Cavs when they make the extra pass. It is early with some new players and many new lineup combinations, but I’ve seen a few examples of the unnecessary extra pass that results in either a turnover or a bad shot. It is not a concern at this point, but something I’m watching at times. Some of the Cavs need to be a bit more selfish and I think this is a great point that Daniel is making. One, because we understand that the Cavs want to work super early into the shot clock and even are understanding that they can take these shots early into the shot clock. One, because sometimes those are the best shots available and two, because they also are going to be crashing the offensive glass in certain scenarios. Right. Because if you get a shot up early into the shot clock and the defense isn’t even set, the other players are still coming back onto the offensive end and Jared Allen, Evan Mobley, De’Andre Hunter ideally are coming back and getting these all offensive rebounds off the glass as well. What do you guys think about this unnecessary extra pass? How the Cavs can mediate that and shrink the amount of bad shots that are created because of those extra passes?
Chris Fedor: I find it hard to classify an extra pass as like a bad result for the offense. Look like if it’s Dean Wade passing up in open three or something. That’s a different conversation. Right?
Ethan Sands: Right.
Chris Fedor: Or last year when it was Isaac Koro doing his pump fake thing from the corner. That. That’s a different conversation. But if you’re trying to make the extra pass in search of a great shot as opposed to a good shot, I’m not going to fault Donovan for doing it. I’m not going to fault Evan for doing it. I’m not going to fault Lonzo for doing it, provided it’s in the flow of the offense and it just doesn’t sabotage what they have going on within their offensive set. Set. I also think there’s just a reality to this basketball team that they’re probably going to be a little bit high turnover because they do want to play fast, because they are going to take risks, they are going to take chances. They are going to try and make that extra pass. And look, during the years that the Golden State warriors were dominating the NBA, they were a high turnover team too, but they had enough firepower to make up for it and it didn’t kill them. Except for when Steph tried the behind the back pass in the NBA Finals against the Caps. That certainly caught up to him and that was problematic for him because that was a bad habit and he couldn’t shake it. But that’s to the extreme. I just think when you play with the tempo that the Cavs want to play, if you get as many possessions as the Cavs plan to get, if you pass the ball so much throughout the course of a possession, if, if you do have so much movement and free flow to your offense, that’s going to lead to mistakes, that’s going to lead to turnovers. And I think provided they’re the right kind of turnovers, I know that sounds weird, but provided they’re the right kind of turnovers, I think Kenny Atkinson will live with them. And I would be okay with those, too, if I was a Cavs fan.
Jimmy Watkins: We’re talking like, oh, we had a miscommunication or I, I threw one. You want to throw them out of bounds. If you’re going to throw them away. When you start feeding other, other teams, transition offense, that’s when you get yourself into a, a little bit of trouble here. But to Chris point about the warriors teams, they were high in turnovers. They were also, I mean, laps ahead of the league in passes per game. And it makes sense, right, because Kenny came from Golden State and he’s implementing a lot of those principles here to the point. But I think you’re kind of preaching when you, when you’re asking about overpassing, I do think there’s a part of you that’s, that’s preaching to the Kenny Atkinson choir as Chris alluded to. Like Dean Wade, shoot the freaking ball, man. Like we, if you’re going to be a serious rotation player, you got to put them up. You got to put them up. And I, I know, I feel like 17% of my, my podcast minutes is just me saying you need to shoot more and I need to see more from you from behind the three point line before I believe you’re a good.
Chris Fedor: Shooter, but that’s your basketball love. For Alonzo, that’s the other path.
Jimmy Watkins: I love Lonzo. I just don’t love his injury history. Dean Wade, shoot the ball. Jaylen Tyson, shoot the ball. Evan Mobley, shoot the ball. I would even like it’s Lonzo, you’re going to live with it because he’s such a genius passer, but even for him, like, shoot the ball. Because I think we’re going to get into this with another subtext. Question coming up here. Like, Ty Jerome was the. The most effective three point shooter on this team last year. He had the best percentage on a decent volume. And first of all, what made this Cavs offense so awesome last year is that they implemented the system and where there’s all these passes and they’re trying to play fast and make quick decisions, and they were top three in least turnovers per game. Now, I know there’s going to be another gear this, this year with the speed and the passing. That, that will take some, some getting used to, and there’s some new pieces, and I’m, I’m with Chris. I’m okay with eating some turnovers as long as the process is good and you’re not feeding transition attack. But the spacing might be a little bit worse. And at times, in fact, it will be significantly worse at times because Ty Jerome, when he didn’t have the ball in his hands, he’s not your Sam Merrill or your Max Schrouss who’s making guys run marathons around the court. You gotta stay glued to him because if you, if you help an inch off of him, that thing’s going up and it’s probably going in. So going from him to Lonzo, who is taking great strides with his shot and has had really good shooting seasons in the past, that’s a significant drop off. And given Lonzo’s long layover, I could see shooting confidence being a fluid conversation, at least at the beginning of the season until he finds his rhythm. You’re asking, particularly without Max Strus out there in the beginning of the season, you’re asking more from a guy like Dean Wade, who’s known to be a little trigger check. Teams know this, and they will guard you that way. All right, Evan Mobley. I love the strategy. Make shoot more and shoot them faster. The way that this team makes the biggest step to me is if teams actually have to start treating Evan Mobley like a capital S shooter out there. If we get to that point. And I can’t believe how willing I am to think that that’s a possibility, given where we were this time a year ago. I think it’s totally legit, like down the road that that could be the case. I can break the, Break the ceiling off of this thing. There’s. It just unlocks so much. But you gotta. You gotta prove it to teams. And I don’t even know where I started this thought, but that’s. That’s where I’m ending it.
Ethan Sands: Chris, before you get into your response, I Want to get into a little bit more of the conversation that Jimmy is mentioning? It comes directly from a question from our subtexter anew from San Francisco who asked. Last year The Cavs shot 38.3% from three point land. They shot more in the 33 to 34% range in the preseason, but there was an outlier game in there when the starters were sitting against Boston where they shot 20% that game. Are you guys worried about the Cavs three point shooting to start the season, particularly with Max and Darius out? Obviously they were two of their best long range shooters last year. Chris, what do you think about this dynamic in a news question?
Chris Fedor: Well, I’d certainly think there are more questions about the Cavs from a three point shooting perspective. And what I mean by that is how real is the number that Larry shot in Atlanta last year? How real is the 43% that De’Andre shot as a member of the Cavs? It feels real because I don’t know that I’ve seen him miss a shot throughout the course of training camp or preseason. And, and the Cavs will tell you that he didn’t miss a shot during their, their pickup games and stuff like that in New York and Los Angeles. That this dude is just shooting the ball like he’s Steph Curry. But, but I think there are legitimate questions about the realness of some of those percentages. Especially what kind of shots is Larry going to get? What kind of shots is De’Andre going to get? Are De’Andre’s going to be more off the dribble in pick and roll situations. Something that we have seen a little bit throughout the course of this preseason as the Cavs dabble with different facets of what De’Andre can do, what he can’t do, where he’s comfortable, where he’s not comfortable, all that kind of stuff. So I, I think there are more questions. But, but I think I, I think when you look at the makeup of this roster, there’s only one non shooter on it and it’s Jared. Like who else on this roster can’t shoot and can’t shoot threes? Anybody? Anybody other than Jared.
Ethan Sands: Hold on. Jimmy’s got a few people in his head currently.
Chris Fedor: Who?
Jimmy Watkins: Jalen Tyson. We’re counting Jaylon Tyson as like a. I mean, I guess it’s not like he can’t shoot threes. Teams are going to let him shoot? Yes.
Chris Fedor: They’re going to make him prove it. Yes. They’re going to make him show that he can make them pay. And that’s Wade.
Jimmy Watkins: They’re going to make him prove it too.
Chris Fedor: Yeah, but like Dean’s not, not throwing it.
Jimmy Watkins: For sure, but it’s more about. To me, it’s more about how teams guard you than it is about, like, can’t. Can Dean Wade make an open 3? Of course he’s had great long stretches where he can make threes, but it’s like, how are they our team’s gonna guard you? I think is, is more of the operating mode here.
Chris Fedor: Do you think people sag off a Dean, though? Because I don’t see that. I, I don’t see them giving him the Isaac Okoro treatment.
Jimmy Watkins: Well, it depends on where he is on the court. It depends on where he is on the court. And I also, I think just like it also depends on who he’s sharing the court with. Like, at a certain point you gotta help off somebody. And if my choices are, I’m trying to throw a bunch unit together. Lonzo’s got the ball. De’Andre, Evan, Mobley, Darius slash Donovan. I’m picking Dean Wade.
Chris Fedor: Okay, that’s fair. I mean, this, this kind of reminds me of the whole Golden State warriors conversation during their dynasty. Like, who do you pick on defensively? Well, it’s not Draymond, it’s not Iguodela, it’s not Kevin Durant.
Jimmy Watkins: And teams were leaving Iggy open during seasons where he had good shooting years.
Chris Fedor: So, I mean, Dean shot 36% last year on pretty good volume based on how many minutes he played. Right. And the Cavs are a big proponent on. It’s not so much about percentages, it’s about volume. And if Dean can up his volume, if Evan can up his volume and De’Andre ups his volume, then I think it’s going to be okay. Obviously, Darius Garland is a prolific three point shooter and that’s going to be a loss. Obviously, Max Truce commands a level of attention everywhere he goes on the floor because of his reputation. Forget the percentages, whatever. Like that dude’s getting him up and the defense is paying attention to him in, in a big way. So yeah, it’s something that’s going to be different for the Cavs, but I still think they have the, the personnel based on everything that they’ve done throughout the course of this off season, to be one of the best three point shooting teams in the NBA.
Jimmy Watkins: The starting point, though, it should be noted, they were, I think they finished second by like a decimal point. Again by the Bucks. The Bucs didn’t take very many. Yes, the Bucs. I just pulled it up the Bucs didn’t take as many, so take that with a grain of salt. But yeah, the Cats for most of the season were the best shooting team in the league. Particularly the first half of the season. They were best shooting team in the league by a wide margin. A bunch of dudes were having career starts to the season. It feels like a theme in the playoffs last year was like, well, the Indiana Pacers can’t keep shooting like this. They did. And then the Cavs can’t keep shooting like this is the best shooting team in the league. Well, what if they weren’t? What if they were? What if they got really hot to start the season? They tailed off, but you didn’t notice it as much because their overall percentage was still very good. I 100% believe De’Andre Hunter is a 37% career three point shooter on five threes per game. I’m sold. But like, what if 43% drifts back toward, I don’t know, 38, 39. Those are still really good numbers. But it’s also still fewer shots going in the basket. You know what I mean? Larry Nance Jr. 41% over the course of like a quarter of a season. I don’t know. I don’t. I’m not buying that. Evan, Evan Mobley had a great year last year. What if he. I would actually consider it a win. Like if Evan takes two more a game and he makes like one and a half percent fewer, one percent fewer. I’m still calling that a win. But still fewer shots are going into the rim. You know what I mean? There are small crevices even amongst the good shooters where there’s room for regression that I have questions about.
Chris Fedor: I would agree with that. But I would also say that I would be surprised if the Cavs weren’t top five in every major or three point category because I think they have the personnel to be that.
Ethan Sands: I think that’s all fair and I think that the Cavs, obviously, as you mentioned, Chris, the personnel is basically the most important. And the Cavs are building a roster to be able to run and gun in today’s offense and be able to showcase that when the shot clock is early and they have feel the comfortability and spacing of getting up the floor early enough that they can take those shots because they’re comfortable with whoever is on the floor taking those. And even Kenny Atkinson said that Jared Allen, if he’s wide open, Nobody near him 10ft, maybe that he can even take a three or two during the season. And we’ve seen that in the preseason as well. Do we expect him to actually make some? Do we expect him to take a whole bunch throughout the season? No. So to Chris’s point, I think that’s valid. When we talk about players on this roster that are going to be willing to take threes and feel comfortable doing so. Jared Allen probably is at the bottom of that category.
Chris Fedor: I think there’s one more element here. The Cavs offense is really freaking difficult to guard. Very, very difficult. And because of that, their shot quality is going to be high. Whether they make the shots or not, we’ll have to wait and see, especially with some of the guys that we have questions about. But because they’re so difficult to guard and they have so much offensive weaponry and because they put defenses in a constant pick your poison bind, their shot quality is going to be good.
Ethan Sands: Chris and Jimmy, I want to end the podcast with a maybe more serious question coming from Jacob of Northfield, who, as we’ve talked about Dean Wade tonight, says for the hey Chris episode, were there any contract extension negotiations with Dean Wade and the team now that the season is about to begin, is he still eligible to extend or will be he be an unrestricted free agent this summer?
Chris Fedor: We’ve talked about this a few times on the podcast, and I think it’s important to note Dean has to choose the Cavs just as much as the Cavs have to choose Dean. And I think it depends. I think this year depends on the kind of role that he’s going to have in terms of his desire to come back. Look, this is an organization that has believed in him from the beginning. This is an organization that has rewarded him. They’ve invested time and resources in him. They’ve given him a contract that people around the NBA were wondering if he was ever going to get. So it has been from, from that standpoint, it has been a good partnership. But there have also been times where he’s disappeared out of the rotation, whether it was with J.B. bickerstaff as the head coach or even the first year of Kenny Atkinson, where Dean’s kind of looking around and people close to Dean are looking around saying, huh? Like, do they value us? And then he was in trade rumors this off season. He heard them. He saw them. The Cavs did have convert. It’s their job to have conversations about everybody on the roster. So I don’t think there are hard feelings. I don’t think there was anything that, that Dean or his people had to go to the Cavs and say, hey, like, do we have to smooth over this relation. It’s not like that. But when your name is in trade rumors, like it’s not the best feeling. When the Cavs are having conversations with other teams about whether he’s going to be there or whether he’s not going to be there, it’s not the best feeling. So I do think that this season, how it plays out, the role that he has, the minutes that he plays, if he stays in the rotation, if he doesn’t stay in the rotation. And look, there are Dean related things that the Cavs have to figure out too, right? So it’s, it’s not just the Cavs saying, hey, can you be healthy at the right time of year? Hey, can you be confident enough to be an offensive threat? Can you shoot the ball at a higher volume? Can you do all these different things that we’ve asked you to do to compliment your plus defense, your impactful defense? So I think the Cavs have some things that they’re figuring out related to Dean, and I think Dean has some things that he’s trying to figure out in terms of his place in this organization and not just for this year, but beyond as well. And I think part of, part of Dean’s role and workload and stuff like that, you know, that changed in a big way when De’Andre arrived in, in February. And if the Cavs continue to make the choice of De’Andre Dean like it’s a no brainer now, there might be some financial ramifications that come into play or whatever. But what I’m saying is, you know, Dean has a decision to make about whether this is the place for him, whether this is the organization for him, and it’s going to continue to be the organization for him. And the Cavs have some Dean related questions that they need to answer as well. And I think when you have that, chances are you’re not going to come to a resolution until you actually have to come to a resolution. And that doesn’t come to me if he remains on the roster throughout the trade deadline. That doesn’t come until free agency next offseason when in, in a large way the market will say what Dean’s value is, what his true value is, because now you have to put a financial number to it. Now it’s not just having these conversations now. It’s not just do you want him, do you not want him? It’s how much do you want him and what kind of contract is attached to that.
Jimmy Watkins: It’s not, it is not just, I’m, I’M happy. Get a contract or Dean Wade is at the stage of his career now where he’s wondering what else could be out there. And frankly, I want to start by saying this because I feel like I’ve been kind of dragging Dean Wade on this pod. I feel bad for Dean Wade because it feels like every time he’s been on the cusp of figuring it out and cementing a really crucial role on this team, he gets hurt. There’s only so much you can do about that, and that sucks. And it messes with your body. It messes with your body and your mind. Clearly, the conversations we have with Kenny imploring Dean to shoot more. Donovan saying after the preseason finale that Dean’s one of the best shooters and one of the best defenders in the NBA. I don’t know if even Dean believes that, but it must be nice to hear from a star player. And it’s very intentional for Donovan to say that because he knows how much they’re going to need Dean at the beginning of the season. Big picture, though, it feels to me, this opportunity that Dean has, the beginning of the season, while there are injuries, it feels like he’s trying out for someone else’s team. It’s either a do or you don’t. Because you look around, look around what the Cavs have going on. We know what Dean Wade, Dean Wade can be. He’s always incredible defender, incredible rebound. That’s useful around the league. The question is, can you get enough shots up? What I’m trying to say earlier about Dean Wade is like, are you really like a shooter? If we have to have conversations about you shooting the ball, how often you shoot the ball, where your confidence is at. I think that’s what Kyle was trying to get at earlier. But just look around who in this wing rotation. We’re going to use the term wing loosely here because the Cavs have different players that can fit that, that. That role at different times. Who do you see Dean Wade being prioritized over in the near future? Is it De’Andre Hunter?
Chris Fedor: No.
Ethan Sands: No.
Jimmy Watkins: I mean that the contracts don’t align that way, but no. The max Dr. Long term? I don’t think so. Jaylen Tyson. He’s going to be on a rookie. He’s going to be on a rookie contract. And you have to at least explore the end of that. See what it ends. See what it ends up looking like.
Chris Fedor: And you’re.
Jimmy Watkins: It seems like the Cavs are pretty pleased with the. The progress that Jaylen Tyson has already made. Lonzo Ball is a Three and D wing. We’ll see how the injury conversation goes this year. But healthy Lonzo Ball most certainly has a better, bigger long term role with the Cavs than Dean Wade. Throw Sam Merrill. He’s more of a guard than a wing, but sometimes he’s, you know, occupying that 2, 3 space. The Cavs just made the decision on Sam Rah Dean. The barrier for Dean that Dean Wade has to clear to convince the Cavs, okay, we see you and we have long term plans to, I feel like is pretty high. And by the way, I feel like if he clears it, then he opens himself up to much bigger conversations where he could actually get some decent money in free agency. And at that point he’s probably gone anyways. So I don’t want to say the writing’s on the wall here. I’ll say it this way. I think it’ll take care of itself. I think if Dean Wade plays well, then when the cows get whole again, frankly, I think they’ll try to trade him and get something for him because they, they also see the writing on the wall here. If it goes well for him, if it doesn’t go well, well, then they’ll take in a free agency. They know that he can be a useful player for them and it might just work out where Dean Wade ends up doing the Isaac Koro thing where he tries to catch a contract. It doesn’t happen. Then he comes back to the cabin, he’s like, all right, fine, I’ll sign the qualifying offer or I’ll sign a longer term deal for, on a, on a team friendly thing.
Chris Fedor: You know, I think there’s enough wonder in the Dean camp of is there a better situation out there for us?
Ethan Sands: Yeah, and I think we heard it from Dean himself at media day when the question came up about those trade rumors. And obviously Chris mentioned it earlier. Yes, he had heard them. But also, like, not to say it was nice to be in those talks, but to hear that other teams were interested, as someone who’s been in the league for a multitude of years now is something that you would want as a player that wants to continue your career in the NBA. And especially knowing you’re in a contract year, and I don’t think anybody has said this yet, but I don’t think the Cavs were in extension talks with Dean this offseason. Chris, correct me if I’m wrong, but that was the first question from our guy Jacob of Northfield, asking if there were any extension talks between the Cavs and Dean Wade at all this offseason.
Chris Fedor: No, I mean he’s not a priority guy like that. You know the other thing that I would say, I would just caution Dean in his camp on, on one thing. Ty Jerome had a value that he thought he was going to get from another team and Dice camp had a valuation that, that he thought another team was, was going to be okay with and he didn’t get that number. He had to take a little bit lower. And you never know what the free agent market is going to say when it comes to a contract. You never know what other situations these teams are looking at as plan A, plan B, plan C, plan D, plan. So the minute that you go into free agency, you run the risk of what happened to Tsai, you run the risk of what happened to Russell Westbrook where, you know, here it is right before the season begins and he’s on the veterans minimum. You know, especially nowadays where teams are really, really cognizant of their spending because they don’t really know. They don’t really know. They don’t have a grasp yet on how to deal with these apron rules and these financial limitation and what’s the best way to deem team build in this particular era. So I mean Larry an junior wanted more than what he got. Larry’s done more throughout the course of his career. He’s a better player than Dean, right? I know he’s older and stuff like that, but better player, more accomplished. I mean if he had his choice, he didn’t want to play for the veterans minimum, but that’s what the market said. So you have to be really, really careful and, and you have to do your job behind the scenes of really sussing out what the market says, how many teams are going to be interested and if those teams make sense, both from a financial perspective and from a basketball perspective as well. Because free agency can be a risky, risky game.
Jimmy Watkins: Count the cap space teams. I mean that’s what happened to Ty Jerome. I think in a, you in a normal summer where there’s like, like 10, 12 real teams with like legit cap space, Ty Jerome gets like. I feel like Ty Jerome got like 30, 40% less than he could have gotten in a, in a normal off season with a normal amount of cap space teams now everyone is scared to spend even when they do have the space, particularly as it pertains to Dean Wade. Ty Jerome say what you want about it, in the playoffs, he had identifiable skills, verifiable skills that you know you can bank on at least over the course of 82 games, Dean Wade, if you’re, if you’re getting him away from the Cavs, you’re betting like it’s a lot of theory still. Because even like we talked Dean Wade decent three point numbers on decent volume. Four, his minutes load, it’s never been that much. There’s never been a big minutes load really for him. So you’re, you’re really a lot of projection has never been harder in this cap environment to give out money based on projections. It never has. Any miss on a contract can kill you.
Chris Fedor: Right. And the other thing is, you know, if, if you are a team that is over the cap, you’re not into the apron, but you’re over the cap, you have one avenue to improvement in free agency. One, you have the mid level exception. How much of the mid level exception do you have available? And then if that’s your only pathway to improvement or that’s your only pathway to an addition, are you using that one avenue, that one avenue on Dean Wick, just like were you using that one avenue on Ty Jerome for, for one team? Memphis made a lot of sense for Tai Hindsight 2020. Even at the time, it made a lot of sense because of how much Ja Morant gets injured because Desmond Bain, their secondary creator, went to Orlando. So it made a lot of sense both from a financial perspective and from a basketball perspective. So if you’re that kind of guy, where a team is looking at you saying, hey, your plan A or plan B or plan A and a half, if you want to look at it that way, then, then I think they’re okay saying, yeah, we’ll give you the mid level exception or the large chunk of the mid level exception. We’ll use the one pathway that we have to improvement in free agency on you because we value that. We value you that much. I think it’s fair to wonder how many teams are going to say, you know what, we got this mid level exception earmarks for Dean Wade.
Ethan Sands: Yeah, I think it’s always going to be an interesting conversation, especially coming into the season when it comes to Dean Wade. And as we mentioned on yesterday’s podcast, we talked a lot about Dean and his shooting and the confidence that he needs to be able to have the success that is required of him. Because there’s not been a player outside of Evan Mobley that’s gotten more empowerment than Dean Wade. But also understanding that Kenny Agathon has also talked about the shooting, the volume of attempts, and saying that he wants him to flip a switch permanently, to have that confidence every time he’s on the floor and to do so and to prove that he has done that, he wants him to set a record this year for his attempts per 36. Right? And that’s Kenny Atkinson legitimately saying that in a press conference, talking about the importance of him striving for a goal, rather than just talking about the confidence of whatever he’s on the floor. There’s something that he needs to aim to get to that is important for Dean Wade and what the Cavs are going to be able to have success. So I definitely think we’ve talked a lot about the bench unit on today’s podcast, and the overarching takeaway is the bench is going to be important. But also we understand that Evan Mobley helping out man the second unit. And when these players come back from injuries, whenever that may be, Darius Garland, Max Struth, their acclamation is also going to help that process as well. But that’ll wrap up today’s episode of a hey Chris podcast with the Wine and Gold Talk Podcast. But remember to become a cast insider and interact with Chris, me and Jimmy by subscribing to cell Text. If you want to have your voice heard on next week week’s episode or just simply get a shout out on the podcast, this is where you send in your questions. To do so, sign up for a 14 day free trial or visit cleveland.comcavs and click on the blue bar at the top of the page. If you don’t like it, that’s fine. All you have to do is text the word stop. It’s easy, but we can tell you that the people who sign up stick around because this is the best way to get insider coverage on the Cavs from me, Chris and Jimmy. This isn’t just our podcast, it’s your podcast. And the only way to have your voice heard is through subtext. Y’ all be safe. We out.
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