CLEVELAND, Ohio — In this episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast, Ethan Sands and Jimmy Watkins delve into the complexities of teaching and executing shooting in the NBA, using the Cavs as a primary focus.
Takeaways:
1. The Challenge of Coaching Shooting
Shooting is exceptionally difficult to teach because every player is unique, and there is no single “correct” method. As noted by Cavs coach Kenny Atkinson, ten different shooting coaches might offer ten different strategies for the same player. This complexity is why professional players, despite being paid millions, can still struggle with what seems like a fundamental skill. The conversation highlights how players like Isaac Okoro, a top-five draft pick, have struggled with shooting competence, underscoring that the principles taught for decades — like the “BEEF” (Balance, Eyes, Elbow, Follow-through) acronym — don’t guarantee success. The art of coaching involves tailoring techniques to individual players, from addressing mental blocks to refining physical mechanics.
2. Cavs Lose Key Development Coach
The Cavaliers are reportedly losing assistant coach Alex Samara, who is expected to be named the first head coach of the WNBA expansion franchise, the Portland Fire. Samara, previously the team’s Director of Player Development, has been instrumental in working with players to improve their jump shots, including Isaac Okoro, Luke Travers, and Craig Porter Jr. His departure is considered a significant interruption to the team’s routine, as shooters are highly dependent on consistency and established relationships with their coaches. It creates a difficult situation for the Cavs, who may need to promote from within to maintain the developmental tracks already in place for their players, especially since finding a replacement mid-season who aligns with their philosophy is challenging.
3. The “Shot Doctor” and Micro-Adjustments
The discussion delves into the work of renowned shooting coach Chip Engelland, known as the “shot doctor,” to illustrate how minor tweaks can lead to massive improvements. Engelland famously helped Kawhi Leonard drastically improve his three-point percentage and worked with players like Steve Kerr, advising a subtle change in which finger the ball rolled off during release. The hosts also noted that physical traits, such as large hands, can complicate shooting mechanics, a theory often applied to players like Rajon Rondo and Shaquille O’Neal. These examples emphasize that there is no universal fix; success often comes from a coach identifying a specific, nuanced adjustment for a player’s unique form, whether it’s release point, shot selection (like Tony Parker focusing on mid-range), or even changing shooting hands, as Tristan Thompson once did.
4. Reps vs. Game Situations
There’s a critical distinction between simply taking hundreds of shots in an empty gym and practicing in game-like situations. While repetition builds muscle memory, it doesn’t replicate the pressure, fatigue, and defensive closeouts of a live game. This is why the hosts argue that “repping situations” is more valuable than just “stacking makes.” The mental and physical response changes under stress, affecting footwork, decision-making, and confidence. The Cavs’ use of technology, like blackout goggles that force players to rely on feel rather than sight, is an attempt to bridge this gap by hardwiring reactions. However, the true test of a player’s jumper is how it holds up in live competition when the game’s rhythm and pressure take over.
5. Confidence as the Ultimate Factor
Confidence is presented as arguably the most critical component of shooting. A player can have perfect mechanics, but if they lose belief in their shot, their performance unravels. Hesitation leads to a tightened body, a shaky base, and a flat release, as seen with players like Dean Wade and Evan Mobley. When confident, Wade is a 40% three-point shooter; when his confidence dips, he passes up open shots. Jimmy Watkins described it as a “chicken or the egg” scenario: you need confidence to make shots, but making shots builds confidence. This mental fragility is why coaches must be careful with their messaging and why players need an almost “delusional” self-belief to succeed, as trash talk and pressure can easily get into a shooter’s head.
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Transcript
NOTE: This transcript was generated by artificial intelligence and could contain misspellings and errors.
Ethan Sands: What up, Cavs nation? I’m your host, Ethan Sands, and I’m back with another episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. Joining me today, none other than Jimmy Watkins, cleveland.com columnist, and he’s here to talk with me about the art of shooting. We’ve talked a lot over this off season about the importance of the Cavs three point shooting, the importance of simply finding a rhythm and getting back into where they were last year, especially on the offensive end. Obviously that’s a little bit more difficult when you have a historic offense a year ago. I do think that there are different areas that need to be explored when it comes to the conversations of the Cavs offense, and one of them is how just shooting is different for every player involved. And some people need more confidence, some people have more of a mental journey, and others simply just need the physical reps to get where they want to go on that end of the floor. Jimmy, I know you are a Hooper in your own right. You got a silky smooth jump shot, one that you pull from half court. Whatever. You can walk me through how you learned to shoot your shot and then also what you’ve seen around around the Cavs over the last couple of years and who has impressed you, who needs the most work and why you think those things might need to be happening.
Jimmy Watkins: Oh boy. I mean, I. I learned a lot. I think like a lot of people, I learned from my parents. Both my parents played college ball at smaller, smaller levels. Not that anyone needs to be taking any notes from me.
Ethan Sands: My.
Jimmy Watkins: My jumper is a little. I shoot a little lower than most people. It’s. I get it off quick. It’s one of those learned when I wasn’t strong enough to shoot kind of deals and some of the habits held over. But I think in. In general, what the reason we’re doing this pod, we can see the percentages. We know the good shooters are and it seems like such a simple thing, right? Like the old Dwayne Wade commercials that remind us beef, right? Was that bend?
Ethan Sands: I.
Jimmy Watkins: Is that bend. Elbow, eyes, follow through. Something like that. It seems something like something very practicable. A skill you can master.
Ethan Sands: Hold on, let’s get.
Jimmy Watkins: Did I get it wrong already? God damn it.
Ethan Sands: Let’s get deep right before we go any further. So much for my jumper balance. Eyes, elbow and follow through because.
Jimmy Watkins: Eyes, elbow. What the hell did I say for B. I don’t know, dude. I. I would worry about the eyes and the elbow because I don’t know why that that felt off to me but. Oh, Maybe I said bend. Like, bend your knees. You got to bend your knees too, kids. All right. My Magic Johnson developmental tape is still in the works. It’s such a simple thing, right? To flick your wrist. And we have, we have a nice little acronym for it. All of us have the same access to the same information about shooting. It’s a lot of. It has been circulating for 50 years now. And yet, and yet, and yet professional basketball players, people who get paid many millions of dollars, still struggle with it on some of the most elementary levels, to the point where we’re having conversations on the pod yesterday about guys like Ian Wade. Okay. We’ve had conversations for years about Isaac okoro, Isaac Coro, 10 Top 5 NBA draft pick, not competent enough to shoot the ball. Sometimes I, I just think that is so fascinating and I think the way the Cavs are, We’re about to get into it. The way that the Cavs approach this stuff on such a simple. Something that can be so simple. The way the, the range of ways teams are trying to teach this is so interesting to me.
Ethan Sands: Yeah. And I think that’s, that’s basically the crux of where we’re trying to get into. Right. There are different strategies for every individual player. And we had this conversation with Kenny Atkinson after a game. Jimmy, I believe you were the one that asked him, like, why is it so hard to teach shooting? And one of the main responses, other than Katie Atkinson saying he could sit there and give a whole dialogue on the art of shooting, is because everybody is different. You could ask 10 different shooting coaches and they will all give you a different description and of how they attack a certain problem or attack a certain player and how they want to develop them. Obviously, we understand that there are a multitude of ways that the Cavs are trying to use sports science, use different technological advancements when it comes to the game of basketball to be able to help improve shooting of their players. One of them we mentioned on a recent podcast, it’s a goggles situation. For some players, Luke Travers has been the main culprit of using them during practice. He’s a guy that we know needs to improve his shooting to be able to make that next jump and get to the NBA level, get on the court on a regular basis and get off a two way contract. But for Luke, the goggles that we were described of using, that even Kenny Atkinson said that he used and some other players as well have said that the, the image simply blacks out when they release their jump shot. So it’s not necessarily them looking at the rim and trying to make mental adjustments. It’s only them having a feel for the basketball and creating muscle instincts or muscle memory of where they were and getting audible changes like short right, left, back, rim. All of these different conversations that are being had to help them solely not think too much, solely remembering the form. Also just what it feels like rather than overthinking. Because as we learned from players in the past, and obviously Luke Travers might be one of them. Shooting is a confidence based and thought based thing and it can overwhelm players, especially when we talk about makes and misses and especially in a make miss league. So while we talk about this, I do think it is extremely important that we break some news as well. As there have been reporting that the Cavs are going to be losing another coach, allegedly Alex Samara, who most recently was promoted to an assistant coach during the 2025 season. He was the director of player development in July of 2024, brought on that year for the Cleveland Cavaliers. He is one of the most evident coaches when it comes to the shooting element of the game. Every practice we saw him working with Isaac Okoro. Every practice now we see him working with Luke Travers, Craig Porter Jr. You name it. These guys that are trying to make the jump, especially when it comes to their jump shot, Alex has been one of the people that has been hands on the most there. Alex is reportedly leaving the Cleveland Cavaliers to be the next head coach of the Portland Fire, a WNBA expansion franchise that is coming to the WNBA in 2026. So if Alex stays on for the entirety of the 2025, 2026 NBA season is still left to be seen. We have to have this conversation with Kenny Atkinson. Of course this news came out while we have not had access to practice or communication with Katie Atkinson at this time. So that’ll probably be the first thing I ask him next. But I think there’s an importance of how he is looked at in not only the NBA world, but the basketball world as a whole and how he is developing players to help them improve. Especially when you talk about an expansion team that after the most recent expansion team did so well in the Valkyrie, now you want to see how he can develop a new squad as well.
Jimmy Watkins: There’s never a great time to lose a coach. This is not less than ideal. And when you, when we’re talking about shooting, I think this, this might sound a little bit too detailed. But shooters are basketball players generally, but particularly shooters are like very routine oriented and they like. I mean to, to the superstition. I Mean, you talk to some. I remember I covered Fred Hoiberg, who was in the NBA for almost a decade, purely on the jumper, and he would talk about, you know, it mattered, you know, which shoe you put on first in the routine. And you go through the same shooting warmups every single day. What I say that today is this is a pretty big interruption to the Cavs routine and whoever. I’ll be interested to see how they patch this over as a staff. It’s a tough time to be looking for a new coach. Do they. Do they promote from within? I would think they do that both because, like I said, it’s hard to find someone right now that would fit the criteria that they’re looking for and is looking for a job, they probably have to steal somebody off, somebody else off another staff. And if most. Most people, if you’re, you know, we’re talking lateral moves, now is not the time for those. And the other thing is, as we’re talking about, there are many different ways that people interpret how to teach shooting. And so you probably would want to, at least for the time being, keep. Keep whatever track these guys were on, particularly the guys who are still developing consistency, consistent jump shots. They. You’d want to keep them on whatever track Alex had them on. Right. So it’s tricky. And I would. I, again, I’ll guess that the Cavs will promote from within. It’s easier to hire a new guy on the. On the back end than it is an assistant coach. Right. So, first of all, congrats to Alex. Sounds like a great opportunity, but the Cavs are in a tricky position now.
Ethan Sands: Yeah. And obviously you never want to lose a coach before a season. So again, we are unsure if he’s leaving before the season or after the season. The official statement has not officially been made. Multiple sources have confirmed that he is going to be named or expected to be named the first head coach.
Jimmy Watkins: I get. The fire don’t. Like, they’re an expansion franchise and they don’t start till next year, but when you’re running a team, like, I would imagine, you’re trying to get there as soon as possible. Right. Like, I guess it’s possible that Alex will finish out this season with the Cavs, but I don’t. I don’t know the exact W calendar, but at a certain point, the NBA playoffs are going to run up pretty close to the W preseason or. Or whatever. Like, if they’re having, like, mini camp workouts and he’s going to want to get boots on the ground, I don’t think they even know who their players are going to be yet. But I, I would think he’s not going to coach this season. I could be wrong.
Ethan Sands: I also want to get into this thought process of every shot is different, right? Jimmy, we’ve noticed throughout the NBA like there is no perfect thought process or creation of a jump shot. Because if there were, we wouldn’t be having this conversation. Everybody would just be doing the same thing. Because obviously Stephen Curry has more of a low jump shot, a quick release that we all. No, but we also understand that Klay Thompson has the typical jump shot, the form release, the base, all of these different things. Then you have players like Lonzo Ball who have had to develop into their current jump shot to gain a better percentage, to have a better shot of continuing their legacy in the NBA. Obviously we understand and we know. Remember Lonzo Ball used to shoot from the side and then bring it over. Now he’s more center cut and is working on that to this day. But Jimmy, I want to know what you think about the different stances, the most important portions of the shot. Obviously to me, I think it’s that foundation in the follow through, so f in beef. But I think there’s a lot of other things that you have to contemplate when you’re talking about this shooting acumen of players. And as Kenny Atkinson said, there is not necessarily every right way to teach it because his dad will teach it a certain way, someone else’s dad will teach it a different way. These Experts teach it 10 different ways on one certain subject. What do you feel like is the most important thing for an NBA player to have to be consistent in their shot and continue to have a routine, as you mentioned, that is so important for them.
Jimmy Watkins: I think if I knew that answer, all due respect, wouldn’t be on this podcast. I would be sitting on somebody’s bench making, you know, six figures plus teaching shooting. I was reading in preparation for this pod this morning. I was reading this old Grantland feature on Chip England, who is known around the NBA as the shot doctor. I, I think he is the, he’s the LeBron James of shooting coaches in the league. He was longtime coach with the Spurs. His most famous case is Kawhi Leonard, who was a nice college player. I think Kawhi improved his three point percentage by like, like 50% and not. And that doesn’t mean he was shooting zero and shot 50. I’m saying like it was by like the same way you go from 10 to 15. That’s an improvement. By 50%. Right? Which is one, one of the largest improvements on record. Now he works for the Oklahoma City Thunder. And look at all the guys at the Oklahoma, the Oklahoma City Thunder are known for just. They like size, they like length, they like iq and they’re, they’re like, we’ll figure the rest out later. Lou Dort, perfect example. Lou Dort came into the NBA a bowling ball. Really good defensive player, couldn’t hit a shot. Teams were letting him shoot. Lou Dort today is a 40% three point shooter. And when I was reading up on Chip England, one of the first people he worked with was actually Steve Kerr, the Warriors coach who obviously won a few rings as a player as well with the Bulls and the Spurs. And something so simple as Chip England told Steve Kerr when he was watching his shot that Steve Kerr was shooting the ball too much. He was having the ball roll too much off his middle finger and Chip thought that he should have it roll off his index finger a little bit more. Simple adjustments like that. And the same story. The author, I think it’s Bill Barnwell who now does NFL stuff for espn. He’s talking about how with Tony Parker, Chip England just told him, hey man, threes aren’t your deal. Just take a step in. And Parker, who was shooting I think like 31% on 200 threes a year early in his career, stop taking as many. We know Tony Parker as an artist of mid range now and he’s going to be a Hall of Famer. So every, everyone has a different thing. Every shooter has a different tweak and to their exact forms. That the Kawhi form correction has always been a trade secret because you know, if you give that one away, well then what are we, what are we paying Chip England for? Then everyone will try to, try to imitate it, right? It’s probably happening anyways. There are uncertainty teams around the league. We’re studying Kawhi’s form frame by frame. He’s such a unique case, but he has such massive hands, right? You’ve all seen the picture. If you don’t just take a look at Kawhi’s hands. And it’s notorious that players with bigger hands have a hard time getting these specifics like how to roll the ball off the finger when you have such a palmy grip on the hand. Rajon Rondo was a famous example of a guy who had such big hands. And that was part of the reason why at least was part of the theory, right? If we, again, if we knew we would have Fixed it. That was part of the theory why Rajon Rondo, as a guard struggled shooting. Same thing with Shaq, right? I mean, Shaq used to basically hold the ball with his fingertips at the free throw line to emphasize having it roll off his fingertips. But he had such a hard time. He’s. Dude’s massive. The dude’s massive. So there’s a lot of different ways to go about it. And again, I think that’s what makes this so, so interesting. I was talking to Kenny about this at. After that day at Shooter and talked about. We were talking about shooting. I spent a couple days when I worked at. In Kansas. There’s this dude named Bob Fisher who holds a bunch of records for like weird free throw records. Like most free throws made with two hands in like, I don’t know, five minutes or something. It’s. It’s speed and its accuracy. And I’ve seen this guy, he’s like 65. He didn’t even really play basketball. I’m not sure any level. It’s been a while since I reread my story, but I have his book. And he basically turned this into a math equation and he turned it into something called the centerline concept, which is basically if your hand is centered under the ball and you follow a specific arc, it’s gonna go in. It sounds a lot like, you know, keep your elbow in and flick your wrist and follow through. But he had a. He had an art, an arted dissertation against that beef, the commonly known beef concept that I think it was the elbow part. He didn’t care where your elbow was as long as you got through. If you. As long as you shot the ball through the center line like it was going in. And he had. I mean, this dude built his own little papa shot contraption in his basement. He was showing me slideshows of frame by frame of all these. Of all the greatest shooters in history. And right at their release point where the ball was. It’s crazy. I mean, Boston Celtics called this guy in and tried to help. I remember, I think it was Jay Larnega, former Celtics assistant, said that he came in and he tried to help Tristan Thompson with his free throws. He tried to help Jaylen Brown with his shooting form. There’s so many different. I mean, Tristan Thompson at one point was left handed. Midway through Tristan Thompson’s NBA career, they were just like, why don’t you try the other one? Like, that’s, that’s how far this can go. We have guys in the league who can you try a granny Shot at the foul line, because that’s not working for you. That has a pretty decent track record. Like Rick Barry shot almost 90% for his career shooting granny shots. I keep coming back to, it’s such a simple thing. Flick your wrist. If you’re in the NBA, you’ve been doing it your entire life. But there’s a thousand different ways that people think you can fix a shot.
Ethan Sands: Jimmy, I think that was an intriguing topic and one of the things that caught my attention the most was when you’re talking about the changing of which finger you release the ball off of, right? That’s such a difficult thing to do as a shooter who’s been doing it your entire life. So my next question for you would have to be, do you think that touch itself is teachable or is it a byproduct of coordination and natural proprioception? Because you can clean up mechanics, right, but the innate ability to feather the ball off different angles feels like something you can’t necessarily program.
Jimmy Watkins: That’s such a great question, Ethan. And my, my lean is. I feel like touch can be taught early. Like I feel, I feel like with a lot of these guys it comes down to how did you learn? A lot of the guys that are great shooters grew up shooting. That’s how they, that’s how they made their name, right? The Kawhi Leonard type success stories, the Lou Dort type success stories, those are few and far between. You know, anytime I hear an NBA draft prospect profile and it’s like, well, his three point shot could get there, I kind of tune out. Because this is just like, that’s a big task. That’s a big task to put in your development staff’s plate. It happens, but it’s hard working. Theory is that you either have it early or you don’t. Because you think of, think about the type of players that need to learn how to shoot later in life or need to fix their shot later in life. It’s the guys who are tend to be bigger and super athletic and have spent a lot of their, their shot obviously isn’t the skill that got them here. And so think about slashers, defenders, these people who were probably so dominant in other areas of their game when they were coming up, they didn’t need to rely on a jump shot. Their first step was so quick they could get to the rim whenever they wanted. Or they were so strong they could overpower people into the lane whenever they wanted. Or they’re such athletic freaks, they could just dunk on people, right? Like even if Even if we’re running you up, when you’re staying with me, I’ll just put this on your head. So then you get to the league and there’s. Now everyone’s like that to a certain extent. It’s like, well, we have to round you out. We have to round out your skill set a little bit. And that’s a really hard thing to do, man. Like, I’m trying to. What’s a, what’s a parallel? What’s something that you have to learn early on in life? How about this? Like a new language. How hard is it to learn a new language midway through life? Like, if you, you grow up, we all, you all have a native tongue, right? Like, you grow up hanging around, whatever people are speaking, you pick up on it and it’s second nature to you. But I mean, I took freaking five years of Spanish and high school and college and all here people talking now and it’s just like, whoa, slow down. I, I thought at one point that I like kind of had it down. I still think today, like you dropped me in like a Spanish speaking country and I need to find my way around. I could stumble my way through it. But it’s just, it’s a different thing when you have to do it after you’ve already learned so much else. And you’re, I think your brain, I think this is a scientific fact that your brain becomes less nimble as you get older. When you’re younger, you’re always open to new ideas. That’s when you develop most of your skillset because your brain is so malleable. But then you get, I guess, stuck in your ways or used to a routine. We’re going to try to loop that back in on the shooters and it becomes hard to change and adapt and learn new ways of doing things.
Ethan Sands: Jimmy, I think that’s such a great segue into what I was going to ask you next. Which comes into the difference between reps and repping situations. Because player development comes into a different facet when we’re talking about players are getting up shots, right? You want to get 500 shots a day or a thousand shots a day, or especially in Isaac Okoro’s case or Jalen Tyson’s case or Craig Porter Jr’s case, like they are seamlessly always taking the same shot when we get into the practice gym. But how does that translate if you’re not repping situations against a true defender, against somebody that is coming at you against the clock winding down against. And Jimmy, we talked about this on the Last podcast what if the shot clock is winding down and you need to create offense when it comes to the half court and you don’t necessarily have a play that you can run in that different scenario. And to me, I think repping situations matters way more than just stacking mix because the truth is no amount of empty gym reps can replicate what happens when the game starts. Dictating pace when fatigue sets in, defenders closing out late, whatever you want to say, the pressure of those in game scenarios changes a player’s thought process. The mechanics might stay the same in theory, but I just think the footwork, the decision making, the confidence all all start to bend under the real time stress. That’s why the Cavs, for example, have experimented with those blackout goggles that we mentioned a little bit earlier. That idea is hardwired to reactions so shooters don’t become dependent on reading the situation. But the reality is some of that sports science doesn’t always translate because the shooting at its core is rhythm and reaction, not just repetition. So there’s a ceiling to me to what you can simulate in controlled settings. Training camp and practice can teach you trust your form, beef all these other things, but only live competition can make you believe in the context and changes of what you’ve been doing. That’s why players as we’ve talked to during the preseason, Jimmy, that’s why they were talking about they needed to face actual opponents because that’s where all the behind the scenes work either holds up or it falls apart. And we’ve seen that in the playoffs as well because you can polish your jumper all summer, all season, but until someone’s chasing you off the screen or switching mid possession, you don’t really know how real it is.
Jimmy Watkins: That’s why the Kelvs always keep them score, right? Like when we watch Hawks is one of the coaches just happens to be the coach that’s often working on the court that’s closest to us when we’re at shoot around. So whether they’re putting the goggles on guys or they have the little like contests contest stick is what I’ll call it. It’s like a little punching bag at the end of the stick that they give to another staffer and have them contest the shooters, right, they’re always counting, there’s always a score. So there’s they’re trying to as best they can simulate some sort of pressure or or situation while they’re practicing, right? And even on most basically basic level you’ll have I remember a camp coach at, at Ram Summer basketball camp, say, like, it’s great that you can get 500 shots up, but if you’re shooting them all standing still, like, you’re really not getting anything done for yourself. You gotta, you know, get yourself moving. Run after, you know, you know, flip the ball back, spin it and. And go run after it. Get yourself moving. Because in the game, you, you. How often do you really get the chance to set yourself, stare at the rim like that and shoot from a neutral, like, body fuel position like you’re tired as heck. You’re tired as hell when you’re running out there, right? Like you’re. You’re playing defense. You’ve just run back, probably, and you’re running in transition. Maybe it’s your first shot off the bench where you might get that opportunity. But those are. Those are really few and far between. So this is another reason why I’m kind of like a grumpy Grinch when it comes to shooters. It’s like, okay, this guy’s, you know, this guy who’s never shot above average NBA threes before, you know, has shot 40% over the first two months, and no one’s guarding him. But, like, this is progress. All right, man, let’s see what happens down the road. Let’s see what happens. It seems like, like, I hate to keep bringing them up, but, like, Isaac Koro, when he was here, was the king of a career. Best November, December stretch. And then sometimes, like last year, he got hurt and that. That threw him off, I’ll grant it. But it just seemed like when it got down to doing it, particularly in the playoffs, he struggled because there’s a completely different set of circumstances and you feel like as much as we could talk about which finger should I shoot it off of? How do I set my feet? How should my base look? It’s such a mental game, man. Like I said, shooters are obsessive with rhythm, routine, superstition. They are strange creatures. The really good ones, at least, and the bad ones, or even a good one when he’s going bad. Another Hoibergism I learned is like, even when this Dude’s in the NBA shooting 40%, he has a bad couple of weeks and it feels like he’s never going to make one ever again. You know, it’s. It is such a roller coaster ride, particularly when you derive a part of your identity from how good of a shooter you are, right? You’ll play pickup games at, like, a random park, and you might not have even met anybody, some. But you put up a jumper, it’s off, someone will go, oh, he’s with us. Or that, you know, that, that that stuff is broke. They’re trying to get in your head because they. People realize even subconsciously that, like, this is such a battle within. Shooting is such a battle within. Because there’s so many different intricacies and things you have to focus on that it’s easy to lose your way. So I think that, that that’s probably an understated part of it too. Just the, the mental resilience that goes into form, discipline and continuing to shoot, particularly if you are struggling on a given day.
Ethan Sands: Jimmy, I feel like we’re being Shaq and Kobe on this, right? And now we keep going back and forth. You keep setting me up for the next topic, which is in that. Right. Do you think confidence is the most underrated part of shooting or is that oversimplifying it? And to me, I don’t think that’s oversimplifying it. Because when we talk about the delivery of shooting, when we talk about repping foreign footwork, follow through all you want, but once a player stopped believing in themselves, the shot changes completely. You can see it in real time. The base gets shaky, the release point drifts, and that natural rhythm disappears. Shooting’s all about timing and freedom like that. That’s why it’s one of the most beautiful things of the game. It continues to change. And that’s why we’re having this conversation about how difficult it is to develop shooting and continue to work with these players. Because when a guy hesitates even for half a second, his body tightens like the feet don’t necessarily go in the right spot. He suddenly, the ball is coming off flat. We’ve seen it with Evan Mobley, we’ve seen it with Dean Wade. We’ve seen it with a lot of different guys on this Cavs team. Last year, when Evan Mobley, it was, oh, why are all his shots short? Oh, he doesn’t look confident. Well, okay, Dean Wade, huh? Well, he missed a couple, now he’s not taking any. When Dean Wade’s confident, and we’ve talked about this on previous podcasts as well, he’s a 40% three point shooter who spaces the floor as someone who’s 6 foot 9, 6 foot 10, and takes them without thinking. But the moment that confidence dips, after a few misses or a stretch of limited minutes, he starts passing up shots that’s inexcusable, especially for his role. The same mechanics, same form, completely different results. That’s all belief. Jimmy. I think that’s why it’s so important that confidence. Some fans get upset with the delusional confidence that some NBA players play with. They need that. They have to have that they have to believe, as Donovan Mitchell has put it over the last couple of weeks, or actually, excuse me, on over the last couple of years with Dean Wade is he needs to believe he’s one of the best shooters in the room at all times. Best shooters in the league, right? That’s the pump up that Donovan Mitchell has continuously given to Dean Wade in particular. But when we talk about the concept of trying to use goggles and trying to use sports science and all these things, it’s cool. But it doesn’t replicate game pressure, right? Because you’re literally blacking out. The fatigue, the crowd, the defenders flying at you, all these other stuff that you have to think about when you’re taking these active shots. And training can build repetition and put confidence in what your shot is supposed to do, supposed to look like all these things. But confidence isn’t just part of shooting. It is is shooting. You lose belief, everything else unravels. You mentioned it, Jimmy, like going to a regular run in the YMCA, LA Fitness. Like there’s a Kevin Garnett in there. Not necessarily because he’s 6 foot 10 and playing hard nosed defense, it’s because he’s talking trash. And it’s usually the worst person in the gym that’s talking the loudest because they know the way that they can impact the game is by talking smack and getting into the head of the shooter. And if they can do that, the game shifts and they feel vindicated because they had a part in making that outcome do what it does. So again, to reiterate my point for one last time, confidence is one of the most important things in shooting, if not the most important thing, because I think it derives into everything else.
Jimmy Watkins: I also always, I chuckle a little bit when people, fans or pro athletes themselves will tell us that, like confidence, come on bro, like they’re in the NBA. You can’t shake their confidence. Like, dude, they’re people.
Ethan Sands: You know what I mean?
Jimmy Watkins: I mean like at the top of the food chain, your all star level players, your Donovan Mitchells, your Evan Mobley’s, your Darius Garlands. I thought maybe if you had seen Darius, like when Darius was coming back from the jaw injury, there was a lot going on there obviously, but you could see it sometimes that that always looked like the most confident basketball player to you. You still shot the ball really well, but the guy wasn’t going to the rim as much because he was worried about getting hit. Right. And that’s totally understandable. That’s human. And when, when a guy who has a so so shooting percentage and has been shaky shooting the ball doesn’t shoot the ball, that’s human too, and it’s real. Like, I really think we oversell, like how impenetrable these pro athletes are. By the way, in a regular gym, the worst shooter you’ve ever seen is a sniper. Is a sniper. Believe that.
Ethan Sands: That’s a cosmic stain too. Like you walk into a gym and. And you know, that is clear. You know, you’re the best player. You play with a different level of confidence. And to your point, Jimmy, I want to say this before you continue. Donovan Mitchell, when he was dealing with the shaky knee, when he was dealing with the calf injury, he wasn’t going to the rim either. He was strictly taking shots from the three point land because he knew he could create for himself. Whether it was his sidestep jumper that he loves to go to, that’s his go to, or he simply saw a defender in front of him that could keep up speed wise. But the agility, the acceleration, the start stop, the side to side, those were the areas where he felt most comfortable. And that’s where you lean into. So confidence, not only shooting, but it, it goes into everything that is basketball.
Jimmy Watkins: Yeah. And it exists in different arenas. It’s. It is no knock to say that somebody who has 20,000 people watching them live, millions watching otherwise via streaming, via cable, whatever, and is being played by the best offenders in the world, and those best defenders are saying, go ahead, shoot, you’re gonna miss. That’s a lot of pressure. Okay. There’s nothing wrong with, with having a rough stretch of confidence in that arena. So I want to get that out of the way. These dudes are not bulletproof. Nobody is. Rarely like, I mean, even LeBron has gone through shooting slumps and even LeBron in his life has passed up shots. It happens to everybody, right? Like I said, less so to the top of the food chain, guys, but it happens. The other thing, which to your point about confidence, I mean, I think it’s kind of a. Like, how do you. What part of it is of the process? I think it’s a chicken or the egg thing. Like you need confidence to make the shot, but confidence comes from you making the shot. So that’s, that’s the balance that you gotta deal with. And I do think there is some validity to like, the confidence comes from the work that you Put in, shoot a thousand shots every day in the summer, and you make most of them. That’s gonna help your confidence even when the stage gets brighter. That. That’s just how. That’s just how this goes. And I would then refer you back to my point from, I don’t know, 10 minutes ago, where you can build that confidence a lot easier. If you start building it when you’re four years old, when. If you’ve been doing this your whole life, you’ve been a good shooter your whole life, there’s a much stronger foundation to lean on. Stronger foundation both of skill set and fundamentals, of course, but also of results, of experiences that you can lean back on. Hey, I went through a shooting slump back. This is how I broke out of it. And just reminding yourself I’m always going to bounce back because I always have. One of the simplest things that I was ever taught about shooting was every time you shoot that ball, you have to be thinking to yourself, this is going to go in. I’ve found personally that when it. When I’m having an off day, that can work like, everything, right? Like affirmations in life are.
Ethan Sands: Are important.
Jimmy Watkins: Write yourself a note on the. On the mirror in the morning, hey, bro, you look good. Or, hey, you’re going to be okay. Same thing with your shooting form, right? It’s harder to do that when you don’t have as much of a foundation of skill or confidence and you’re kind of learning it on the fly and you’re. You get into the mba. I’ve made it to the mba, and now they’re telling me something’s wrong with me, something’s wrong with my form. We need to fix this. Right. And that. I think that’s. Coaches messaging has to be so tricky during those times, right? Cause it’s. You put the wrong phrases in people’s head, you can really mess with them. Like a guy. A guy like Alex in his job or a guy like Chip England, you gotta tiptoe a little bit. You have to be really careful with how you deliver feedback to players. Because like we’re saying, it’s such a fragile thing, it’s such a fragile skill that we’re talking about.
Ethan Sands: And just to make this very clear, I’m not saying that what the Cavs are doing with the scientific measurements that they’re using the goggles, the other things that Kenny Atkinson has mentioned are doing is not going to help. I’m just saying that there are other things that I think are even more crucial.
Jimmy Watkins: Those are just alternative methods they’re trying to use to build competence.
Ethan Sands: Right, Exactly. And I think that’s so important when we talk about that because Kenny Atkinson has said that there is scientific and visual proof that the things that they are doing are, are working. He even made a slight joke after this conversation talking about, well, I asked him about what did he think about the Clippers having the trivia in front of them while doing ball hand league drills and trying to keep their head up. He said, well, what is like the validity of the response after that? Is that actually making a difference? Are you just learning more about whatever the trivia was actually going about? So for Kenny Atkinson to put these things into place, also knowing his player development background and his belief in the coaching staff that he’s put together because of their player development background, obviously Alex was the director of player development before being promoted to an assistant coach is a perfect example. Right. And these guys know what makes every individual player tick. They’ve been around them for an entire year. They’re sometimes around them more than their families. Right. So you understand the nuances of what each individual player might need. But Jimmy, I want to get this last question off and it’s probably the most simple one of today’s podcast. We’ve talked about Steph Curry, we’ve talked about Klay Thompson, we’ve talked about Desmond Bain, Dean Wade, Donovan, Mitchell, who all have different shots. Who do you think when we talk about the art of shooting, has the prettiest shot in the NBA today?
Jimmy Watkins: That’s hard. I, I don’t. People say clay and I guess it’s like the most. He has the best outline of a. An example you’d want to show a kid. I think stuff is awesome to watch. Shoot. He has shoots it like a little lower, but the arc on it’s just beautiful to watch that guy pull from 30. The amazing thing about Steph is no matter how long he has run off the ball, no matter how much he’s fading one way or the other, his body is still aligned, he is still able. He is still able to get that thing aimed at the rim correctly, get his body turned the right way. And that guy, he is flying around screens. He. The dribble series that he’s getting off to get into these shots, the balance required is crazy to get that to get us a steady shot off from some of the angles that he’s starting at. I just think that he’s influential over this game for. At least at the grassroots level for I think a lot of, a lot of negative ways I always say that. I don’t think Steph ruined the NBA. He definitely ruined pickup. You got a lot of hand up. This is me mine go in more than others. But you got a lot of 30 foot shooting warriors out there that just shouldn’t be particularly amongst the kids. They’re just throwing stuff up that has no chance and it’s so frustrating to play with them in that setting. But to watch him do it, man, to watch him continue continuously defy all of the rules while still staying within the rules, if that makes sense. It is amazing. It’s amazing. And I, I legitimately fear the day that he retires because it is, he is so fun to watch.
Ethan Sands: Beautifully said. Especially because we know that during the off season one of the things that we see on social media the most of Steph isn’t necessarily him in the gym. It’s him running on different terrains with a weighted vest. All these things. Preparing for what it is going to take for him to, to run off of screens the entire night. To make defenders lives hell and continue to do that at his age. Also dealing with injuries at the beginning of his career. All these different things. I think Steph Curry is not even an argument the best shooter that’s ever touched a basketball. And we are going to get to continue seeing that for a few years to come, we hope. But Jimmy, this podcast was a lot of fun. I hope that the listeners who are still with us to this point are excited about maybe going to touch a basketball today. Maybe having a little more extra confidence when they step into the next gym, whether that’s a YMCA in LA fitness or even just your local park run. Right. Because of all the different things that we’ve talked about and also just understanding that every shot is different and every shot can be worked on.
Jimmy Watkins: I just want to say one more thing. People who are listening to this, if you made it this far, first of all, bless you. Second of all, my mom teaches like a lot, a lot of young kids. That’s just how I know how, how badly stuff has infected the youth. She, she holds clinics and stuff like that. The one question that parents ask the most is what can I do to help my kid shoot? I don’t know who needs to hear this. Certainly don’t need to hear it from me. But this is a Reggie Miller ism. You gotta practice making the close ones before you can practice making the long ones. Most great shooters, their first shot, their first spot in the warmup is right under the basket form shooting or otherwise. And they work their Way back. One of the quickest ways to ruin your form or even set you off on the wrong day if you, if you warm up by shooting 30 footers, you’re gonna mess with your form a little bit over the course of the day. The way to hone good, solid foundational skills is to shoot the easiest shots well, a bunch of times and then move back.
Ethan Sands: The beauty of form shooting is not dead, Jimmy. It is not dead. And there should be no shame for people working on those shots. Going into a gym and actually when I see somebody doing that when I’m wearing up, that makes me respect them even more and makes me want to see if I want to actually pick them up when it comes to a five on five, four on four, whatever kind of gym you’re playing in. But I know after this conversation with you, Jimmy, I want to go find my nearest gym and and get some shots up today. So I hope the listeners feel the same way. But with all that being said, that’ll wrap up today’s episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. But remember to become a Cavs insider and interact with Chris, me and Jimmy by subscribing to Subtext. This is where you can send in your weekly hey Chris questions or just discuss with us about the art of shooting, the beauty of of shooting and the difficulty of shooting. Also, understanding the confidence is dived right in there as well. But the only way you can do that is signing up for a 14 day free trial or visiting cleveland.com Cavs and clicking on the blue bar at the top of the page. If you don’t like it, that’s fine. All you have to do is text the word stop. It’s easy, but we can tell you that the people who sign up stick around because this is the best way to get insider coverage on the Cavs from me, Chris and Jimmy. This isn’t just our podcast, it’s your podcast. And the only way to have your voice heard is through subtext. Y’ all be safe. We out.
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