CLEVELAND, Ohio — This week’s Terry’s Talkin’ podcast is live, with cleveland.com columnist Terry Pluto and host David Campbell. In this week’s show, taped late Tuesday afternoon, they talk about the Browns, why the Patriots will be a tough matchup for them, and how they’d rank the rookies so far this season.
They also discuss the Guardians and Terry’s thoughts on what MLB can do to even the playing field for smaller-market teams.
Also they discuss the Cavs and what would constitute a successful regular season.
Highlights:
The Browns’ upcoming game against the Patriots’ strong run defense will be a crucial test of whether their run-heavy offense is a sustainable identity or a one-game anomaly.
Despite a convincing win, there are questions about whether the win over the Dolphins was “just one game” and whether the run-first formula is not a sustainable model for winning against a tough schedule.
Fan frustration is directed at the front office, with GM Andrew Berry criticized for poor roster construction on the offensive line and at receiver, making it difficult to evaluate quarterback performance.
Joe Flacco’s resurgence with the Bengals is attributed to a superior supporting cast, highlighting how a quarterback’s environment is critical to their success.
Who’s the Browns’ best rookie so far? We rank the 2025 Browns rookie class.
The 2024 NFL rookie class is proving to be historically productive, setting all-time records for scrimmage yards and touchdowns through the first seven weeks of a season.
The Browns’ offensive struggles are systemic, as a weak offensive line creates a chain reaction that limits the passing game and negatively impacts the production of players like receiver Jerry Jeudy.
Numerous former Guardians players are finding significant postseason success with the Toronto Blue Jays, leading to mixed feelings and “what if” questions for Guardians fans.
A stark financial divide in MLB makes it extremely difficult for small-market teams to win the World Series, as high-payroll teams can afford the power hitters crucial for playoff success.
There is a noticeable lack of buzz for the upcoming Cavaliers season, and Terry says it’s driven by a fan perception that the team has hit its ceiling after two consecutive second-round playoff exits.
The Cavaliers’ path to a deeper playoff run involves evolving their offense to handle pressure, increasing the pace of play, and using Donovan Mitchell more as a primary playmaker.
Terry talks about his recent columns on visiting grave sites and how the topic has resonated with readers.
Here’s the podcast for this week:
If you have a question or a topic you’d like to see included on the podcast, email it to sports@cleveland.com, and put “Terry’s Talkin’” in the subject line.
You can find previous podcasts below.
Also, a transcript of the podcast is below. As it is computer-generated, it may contain many spelling and grammar errors.
David Campbell: Hey, it’s time for the Terry’s Talking Podcast. We are taping this on Tuesday, October 22nd. Terry Pluto’s here. I’m your host, David Campbell. How are you, Terry?
Terry Pluto: I’m doing well.
David Campbell: I know you have an event tomorrow night with Regina Brett at the Music Box, and it sounds like you’re gonna have a big crowd for that one.
Terry Pluto: Yeah, it’s sold out. Yeah. Yeah. That was really interesting that it was kind of Regina’s idea. And we both have the same publisher, David Gray, for our books. And I’ve been at the Music Box before, several times to speak, so they decided to try this. I’m anxious to see how it goes. So.
David Campbell: Great. It should be a good crowd out there tomorrow. So. So we should probably start with the Browns this week, right? We got a lot to talk about there’ of baseball today. I think we can get to, too, with the World Series and a lot of the former guardians involved. So I wanted to start with kind of. What was the headline on your column yesterday, Terry, on Monday? Do you think what we saw from the Browns on Sunday is just one game or something more? I think that was pretty much your headline. How are you feeling now that you’ve had a couple of days to digest this whole thing?
Terry Pluto: I’m not sure at all. And I’ll. By the way, I’ll give you something of interest. At least I found it of interest. Do you know where the New England Patriots rank against the run defensively?
David Campbell: I’m gonna say, like 18th, say, third. Oh, really?
Terry Pluto: All right, so now the test, it isn’t like Miami, you know, is the world’s worst run defense. And so Stefanski knew, knew, between the weather and the analytics, he almost had to stick with that. But New England, they’re only giving up 77 yards a game, and they’re actually 24th against the pass, which was a surprise. So the temptation is now you go on the road, you’re playing with a 5 and 2. The Patriots playing Mike Brabel, who’s one of his buddies. Are you going to stick with the run? Not say you run it where they run it 33 times and threw it 18 or something like that. Not that kind of margin, but, you know, get off of the two passes for every run thing they have been doing.
David Campbell: So I’ve been thinking about your question. Is it just one game or something more? And for Browns fans sake, I hope I’m wrong, but I do think it’s just one game. And I’m looking at the rest of the schedule here and I’m seeing like maybe two or three more wins. I mean, they have the jets coming up and. Yeah, the Raiders and the Titans and you know, they might even win the game in Cincinnati against the Bengals toward the end of the season. But like, I think you’re right there. This is like a bad. It’s not a good formula for wins the way they’re going right now in terms of like having to rely on. They’re seeing eight man boxes, so they’ll have to see.
Terry Pluto: Right. Sometimes they have to do. Although interesting ways you saw some bad. Teams that are bad against the run tend to be bad against the run. I don’t care if they put 12 people up there. You know, they have the jets, who are terrible. Baltimore is just a mess. I’m looking at the schedule now. You know, I don’t know what’s going on. Las Vegas, it’s not good. San Francisco is not like usual. Tennessee can’t win a game. Then you get into, you know, the Bears, Buffalo, Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, and there’s some wins there. But I’m more curious how they’re going to play, how they’re going to call the game. Or was that, you know, will they stick with the run some And I. You don’t have. It doesn’t have to be every single time, but my goodness, you can’t. I mean, if you’re going to throw the ball, frankly, 30 or 40 times a game, you might as well play Shador. How’s that?
David Campbell: I guess so.
Terry Pluto: I mean, I’m serious, you know, if that’s what you want, just. Just go put him in the shotgun, send everybody out and good luck and play it like he’s back in Colorado. I don’t, and I don’t be in facetious, but if you want to manage the game, which is what Dylan does, you know, run the stuff the right way, keep it on the ground, try to keep. Give your defense some rest. You know, Dylan. Dylan fits that. So, I mean, in the end, like, shooter is going to play. Everybody needs to calm down about that from the shooter corner of the world. But I’m just saying this is a real test in my mind to Kevin Stefanski’s view. You know, he kept saying that that game was. What do you call. I think he said that game plan rather was game specific, which is that rain and terrible defense. Now, I thought a significant part of that game is both teams were five, excuse me, one and five. Both teams said coach has been under a lot of criticism. One team wanted to play for its coach and the Other one didn’t, and it was really apparent.
David Campbell: Yeah, that’s flat out true. And sounds like Mike McDaniel’s got a vote of confidence at least this week.
Terry Pluto: But, yeah, fine, whatever. That’s their problem. He’s out there wearing sunglasses in the rain and whatever. You know, I mean, I know the guy’s very creative offensively. They all say that. But sometimes once you get kind of past some of the beginning of the X’s and O’s and quirkiness of personality, we get in when things get tough. You know, that’s when a leader’s really. His personality and approaches tested as much as his football acumen. And I think that’s what’s going on there.
David Campbell: And I think I saw a quote from him yesterday, Terry. It was something like, every player, if they’re not performing is. Is in danger of being replaced or something. And if. If we see 10 interceptions, then the quarterback is going to be replaced, too. Like, that wasn’t.
Terry Pluto: That’s a good idea. If he throws 10.
David Campbell: Yeah.
Terry Pluto: What is that?
David Campbell: What is that? The kind of thing that a coach who’s feeling comfortable about his position in the world says no to the media. Right. Like, I’m going to basically leave my quarterback out there, you know, I wonder if it was a little retribution for what Tua said last week about the culture and guys showing up at meetings, a little shot back.
Terry Pluto: And I will say that for the Browns this year, we’ve had very little, in the old Jimmy Haslam term, internal discord. Discord. Remember that? The internal discord days. We’ve had very little of that. It’s just that can’t get much done. I mean, there was this, like, what exactly came down with the Flacco trade? That’s been about it.
David Campbell: And Miles last week.
Terry Pluto: Miles speaking. Yeah, Miles speaking up. But it’s almost like it’s what he does.
David Campbell: Yeah. You’re going to get two or three of those a season. It’s like the offsides once again.
Terry Pluto: Right. Fine. Whatever. He plays his butt off.
David Campbell: Yeah.
Terry Pluto: You know, Miles is not the price. You know, this is like. You talk about majoring in the minors. People who sit there and major on Miles is, you know, once a week, press conference, he goes to the podium and tells us the world according to Miles. And then he goes out and plays 80 or 90% of the sacks. And really, I think what he did show too, sometimes is like, I think he wanted to be moved around. It wasn’t just running, and they did move him around and he was more effective. That way. So I that’s just like when he wanted to be traded and then he didn’t want to be traded. I mean, in the end he didn’t even miss, you know, a workout, much less anything else. Some guys are just kind of you d. You deal with these quirks because the talent is really good and in the end it doesn’t really impact much of anything.
David Campbell: Yeah, he’s allowed to jump offsides in a press conference a couple of times a season, right?
Terry Pluto: Whatever. Yeah, I mean, he’s. Miles is not the problem.
David Campbell: All right, should we get into the quarterbacks? All right, so why don’t we start with a letter here we have a listener. Stan Sack has sent us an email. Stan’s a longtime listener. He says, hey Terry and David, it’s Stan Sack again. I wrote you about whether or not it mattered who played quarterback for the Browns, given the deficiencies of the Browns offense. I wrote back in August. I was going to wait until mid season to check in about the state of the Browns, but the performance of Joe Flacco since being traded to the Bengals has me hot and bothered. No, that’s not true. I’m completely resigned to what an awful team the guys in the orange helmets are. I stand by my point during training camp that it doesn’t matter who the quarterback is for the Browns. Not even Bernie Kozar or Otto Graham would do any better. I recall how Mary Kay wrote that Joe Flacco looked old and slow. Well, not really. He was more like shell shocked. What is really bugging me about this team is the play calling and roster construction. Terry, you’ve documented the mysteries of the play calls and personnel groupings on the field. I agree completely. What I haven’t seen a lot of is how Andrew Berry whiffed completely on the offensive line and receivers this offseason. I think it was one of your columns, Terry, that pointed out how Barry has used only two first or second round picks on offense. So frankly, I think Barry needs to go for sure. And that would likely mean Stefanski goes as well. I also don’t see how anyone can get an honest evaluation of Gabriel or Sanders with the line playing so poorly. So we’ll likely be back on the QB draft merry go round and Gabriel or Sanders or both will go on to success somewhere else. Sigh. Thanks to both of you for your podcast and your insights. And again, Stan is from Newcastle, pa.
Terry Pluto: Too bad I didn’t have his email from my new book, you know why can’t this Team Get a Quarterback? You know, let’s Just all right. Cheap plug. It’s coming out now. Yeah this team find a quarterback and you can get it. It’ll be in the stores in a while but Terry pluto book all one word terryplutobook.com you can get it. It’s. It’s got a lot about quarterbacks in there and also some stuff on Jimmy Donovan and that that’s easy to read but what that resigned to Brown’s sadness about quarterbacks actually was a reason that the book is themed that way. From the first big move they made to drafting Tim Couch to I wrote the book when they had four quarterbacks in for training camp and two of them were already gone. I mean it’s just. Yeah, it’s incredible. It is a very fair statement to say how can you make a really good judgment on either rookie given how the team is constructed Other than you will learn some about their poise see what you think David on this. You know, their ability to handle adversity and that type of stuff. But now I watch some Flaco’s plays and Joe with a little bit of time could still throw it. But my goodness, those Cincinnati receivers, I mean they’re all world.
David Campbell: Oh yeah.
Terry Pluto: I mean when they get the ball, goodbye. I mean they. Joe Burrow was always big time quarterback too but I don’t think Joe would be quite as big time had he been in Cleveland. I really don’t believe that now. He’d be certainly very much better than what we’ve had but we’ll see how it goes. I mean I get an email from a guy I was to it to get it to you. He said, the guy named Dave, he said, do you think Mike Thomas was mad because the Browns did something stupid or because he had to play Flacco? And I did send him a note back. He goes, I wrote Mike Tomlin wants the Browns to remain stupid. His problem is he had to play. Flacco was giving him fits over the years and it happened again. That’s what it was about. He doesn’t care. To Andrew Berry, I mean there might have been a little bit, like you said of protecting the coach’s fraternity. But the bottom line is the bottom line. The bottom line is I don’t want to play Flacco. I want to play who is a Jake Browning who throws, you know, more interceptions than Flacco and doesn’t throw any touchdown passes.
David Campbell: Oh yeah, like I said, I think, I think I said last week my first impression was oh, Tomlin sticking up for a fellow coach. Then my second thought was like, no, he just doesn’t want to have to go against Flacco.
Terry Pluto: That’s pretty much what it was. Right. Also, everybody in the NFL knows Flacco is he Pro bowl or whatever, but he can get hot. And actually Flacco at this stage of his career reminds me a little bit of, remember when Kelly Holcomb was here, how he had these great stretches of games and then he would struggle or that. But I remember sitting there, this is on Christmas Eve of 2003. Butch Davis is, you know, like in his third year’s coach or whatever, and Pat McManaman was the beat guy for the Browns. For the Beacon Journal, I was the columnist. We get a call from the Browns and said, it’s Christmas Eve. Okay. Mike. Morning. Butch was wondering if you and Pat could come in around one o’ clock and he just wants to talk to you. So he comes in and I’m sitting there like with all these trap, like a list of draft choices. He’s trying to explain why everything’s burning down. I’m going somewhere with this. And at that point there was a debate between Couch and Holcomb, and Couch at that point also the beat up, beat up Tim Couch is there. And then. But I did say something. I said, well, if you had to win this Sunday’s game, who would you play? He thought for a moment, he goes, I play Holcomb. I know he could throw a couple passes to the other team, but I also know he could throw three or four touchdown passes. And that’s a little bit like Flacco, only Flacco is a better version of that. But, you know, some guys could get hot. And that was what scared Tomlin and. And Joe got hot.
David Campbell: Well, he knows how good T. Higgins and Jabar Chase are.
Terry Pluto: Yeah, right.
David Campbell: He does 50 ball to those guys. It’s more like a 68, 32 ball.
Terry Pluto: Right.
David Campbell: And also gonna go up and get it. Yeah.
Terry Pluto: I mean, Chase just blows past people. So. And then Joe’s confidence is there. Now, I will say this. They had some of those close ups of Joe and I also wrote that he was slow and looked old, kind of crank, creaky. And you could see it in his eyes that this was not going well. And, and David, you and I have even had the discussion sometimes when I’m under a really tight deadline on a story and, and I used to be able to really just knock it out quickly within 15 minutes. And the game’s going back and forth. I’m struggling. It’s taking me more time. Fortunately, I Don’t I? It’s not like you have throw an interception, the whole thing, the computer blows up. But. And you always say just take your time, get it done right. Joe doesn’t have that option to take your time and get it done right. Here comes every. But now that he’s with the Bengals, he’s got a little more time and he’s got great receivers. And even if I don’t have time, you said I’m just going to fire it out there and you guys go run under it and let’s see what happens. Which is. Remember he was doing that a lot with Amari Cooper back in 23. I don’t know why it didn’t happen with Judy. How about that? Why is Judy. I’m going to ask you this. The only quarterback. Excuse me, the only time he was good was with Jameis Winston.
David Campbell: It’s a very curious thing. I’m trying. Sometimes I try to put myself in the shoes of a receiver. I mean, basically the job is you sprint as fast as you can to where you’re supposed to be over and over and over. And if you know the ball, I know that you know, if you know, if you know the ball isn’t coming because of a sack or a check down, like it’s got to be. I’m not making excuses for Jerry Judah because he’s having an awful season. What does he have? 22 catches, I think in seven games. Right?
Terry Pluto: Yeah. And all that. Go ahead.
David Campbell: It’s. And people ask Kevin Stefanski what’s wrong with the offense every week. And his answer is like everything. And I really think it is everything. Like it starts with the line and not enough time to throw, which prevents Dylan Gabriel or whoever from getting the ball down the field, which results in throws that are off or, or, or sending a guy over the middle into a dangerous safety blow up situation. And it’s just Jerry Judy’s not having a good season. I think part of it is. Is on him for the drops.
Terry Pluto: Yeah.
David Campbell: But I think part of it is on the offense for just how everything is. It just builds on itself and it’s.
Terry Pluto: Not to this point last Sunday. Now, granted that the situation was right to run the ball, but they also played to their strength. Who’s your best player on offense? It’s Judkins. What is easier to pass block or run block? It’s run block. So let’s do this and see what happens. And they have some success and not back off. Like when I remember at the end of the first quarter and I think at that point, Judkins had only had like, six carries for 22 yards. But I used it my. My halftime.
David Campbell: Yeah.
Terry Pluto: That they were at the Pittsburgh game at the half, they were at 14 yards and six carries. So in other words, they had already quit at six carries. And, you know, they kept banging. I think it was one or two carries after that is when he broke loose on that. He hit that was it 32 yards. And I forgot whether there was a 17 yarder. And then there was that real 46 yarder.
David Campbell: Right.
Terry Pluto: And I think he had another one for 10. All right, now you talk about situations now. Explain this to me, Dr. Campbell. What team we the league in scoring?
David Campbell: Wow, that’s a really good question.
Terry Pluto: I know you hate when you do this.
David Campbell: Yeah. You put me on the spot. I’m gonna go. Yeah, go ahead.
Terry Pluto: I. I didn’t. I had no idea.
David Campbell: I’m gonna go with, how about the Chargers?
Terry Pluto: I said Detroit. The answer is Daniel Jones and those Colts.
David Campbell: Ah, okay.
Terry Pluto: They’re putting up 33 a game. Daniel Jones run out of New York. Who is he got picked up by somebody at the end of last year. I forgot where he was. Now I’m having a old man’s mental block. Who is the coach of the Colts?
David Campbell: Steichen? Shane.
Terry Pluto: Yeah. Andrew Barry and a couple other people told me that this guy’s a terrific play caller and can really help a quarterback. So how much is coaching? A lot. Yeah, I mean, but obviously they got some players over there, too.
David Campbell: But if you have two, if you have a revolving door at both of your offensive tackle spots.
Terry Pluto: Yeah.
David Campbell: Like, I don’t know how the Indianapolis Colts would do in that situation either.
Terry Pluto: So I don’t either. But you just. Daniel Jones and the Colts at 33 points a game, it’s just stunning. It’s absolutely stunning. It just shows because another executive wrote me a email. He’s retired now, but he had been in the league for years and years, and just this past year or two is where he’s just doing an advising role. And he took some issue with. With Lance Rislin talking about his players, not plays, which I used. He said, Larry, you know, let me.
David Campbell: Let me explain that real quick, Terry. So Lance thing. He and Dan lobby on our Browns podcast talk about this a lot. Lance always says when it comes down to crunch time, you should always think about getting the ball to your best players instead of running what you think are your best plays. So go ahead, carry on.
Terry Pluto: Yeah. And. And he wasn’t denying the executive the value of the talent, but he said that some guys, they just scheme much, much better. They just do. And you could watch how certain coordinators go to different places and have success. I mean, Jim Schwartz, it’s different. But look, I mean, Schwartz, maybe because he puts his best players in the position to play the best, but Schwartz is really good at what he does, and they’re fortunate to have him. So that’s a. That was a thought there, but I was just blown because that. What’s with the. What I start. How did I end up there? I started wanting to see where New England was against the run. I had a bad feeling. Mike. Mike. Variable defense probably did not want you to run the ball very well, and they don’t. Their 24th against the pass. So that’s. By the way, that’s like catnip for Sir Stefanski. If you have cats, you know, they. They just can’t resist. What. It’s very tempting. So then I just. So then I just said, well, where are they on offense? And they were. They were pretty good. They’re. They’re averaging. Like. They’re like. We’re in the middle of the pack, you know, scoring. Oh, no, excuse me. They are eighth in offense at 26 points a game. But then I looked at the top, and there’s the Colts.
David Campbell: There it is. That’s why they only have one loss.
Terry Pluto: Yes. Okay.
David Campbell: And another team with a great running back. All right, so one of the things you. You wanted. You emailed me earlier today, Terry. You said we should rank the Browns rookies in order of performance. I thought that was a really good idea.
Terry Pluto: All right, you go.
David Campbell: Do you want to go first or do you want me to.
Terry Pluto: All right. I mean, going first, I got Judkins, but I just got him barely beating out Schlesinger.
David Campbell: This was really hard.
Terry Pluto: Yeah.
David Campbell: Like, I was going through trying to pick between Schlesinger and Quinshon Judkins, and I was going back and forth, and I finally ended up with Schlesinger at.
Terry Pluto: The top of my list. And that’s a cool thing. We got two guys that. You go right there now, then you have. Then you get into what? You get into Graham and Simpson. Yeah.
David Campbell: Gabriel. Gabriel was last. So mine was Schlesinger, Judkins, Graham, Sampson. Gabriel. And I’m going to tell you why I picked Swissinger. Well, first of all, Judkins missed a game.
Terry Pluto: Yeah.
David Campbell: And Schlesinger hasn’t, so that kind of gave him a little bit of an edge. Judkins is 11th in the league in rushing, even though he’s missed a game. I mean, He’s. He’s got 109 carries for 467 yards, five touchdowns. And this is probably the most impressive stat to me. No fumbles and all that.
Terry Pluto: And I believe he’s got like six quote big plays, unquote.
David Campbell: Yeah, I did put him second. And the other thing that kind of convinced me to put Schlesinger first was so he’s. He’s tied for 11th in the league in tackles with 59. He’s 22 years old, and I think you can’t really imagine what it’s like to be a 22 year old rookie inserted into the middle of one of the best defenses in the league, playing for one of the best coordinators probably in the league, as you just mentioned, and getting the green sticker on your helmet and having all that, it’s like.
Terry Pluto: Explain what the green sticker means and what it does.
David Campbell: Well, I mean, basically that’s what the quarterback has on offense is the green sticker, and that has the little speaker in your helmet where you can hear the coach from the sideline. So the person with the green sticker on defense basically gets the call from the sideline through a speaker in his helmet, and then he tells the other 10 guys what the call is. So you add all that and make. And he’s got to make sure guys are in the right place and they have the right groupings out there. Like, that’s a lot to throw at.
Terry Pluto: A rookie linebacker, by the way.
David Campbell: And then by the way, run sideline to sideline and tackle everybody who’s got the ball.
Terry Pluto: And. And he’s telling Miles Garrett what to do.
David Campbell: Yeah. Where to go.
Terry Pluto: I don’t mean that, but I’m just saying. Yeah. I mean that, you know, Miles is a very strong personality and he’s relaying. Yeah. Schwartz says it, but. And apparently it’s going just fine.
David Campbell: Yeah, they love him.
Terry Pluto: Yeah. And they. You don’t hear any of that. You don’t hear any of their stuff that they look disorganized. I mean, once in a while they have a blown coverage or something, but it’s, It’s a whole new game and I. So I’m, I’m interested in that. Yeah. So you look at that. How. How is. I haven’t done a lot of work on Mason Graham. How is he doing?
David Campbell: I think he’s been fine. It’s hard to make an impact as a defensive lineman, but I, I think he’s, you know, he’s playing pretty well. So I had him third.
Terry Pluto: Yeah, I mean, they’re good against the run. The Browns are.
David Campbell: Yeah.
Terry Pluto: And so he has a lot to do with that.
David Campbell: And again, one of the best defenses in the league, and he’s right in the middle of it and he’s played every game. So I went. While we’re on the rookies, I wanted to mention a couple. Dan Lobby had another great 10 takeaways today on the line. Cleveland.com Browns but there were some Gabriel stats in there that I thought were interesting and some tell me. Okay, because. So let’s do Judkins first. So according to. This is from Dan’s column, but according to next gen stats, Judkins has faced eight or more defenders in the box. He faced more than eight or more defenders against the Dolphins 52% of the time. That was the highest rate in the league through Sunday’s games. It didn’t include the Monday night games. And for the season, Judkins has faced 46.79% of the time there’s been eight or more defenders in the box. So that is. That is rough stuff to get through. He also was seventh in yards after contact, seventh in the whole league at 3.8 yards after contact. And that’s according to Pro Football Focus. And for the season, he’s sixth in yards after contact per attempt and he’s tied for seventh in missed tackles forced. So, yeah, just to show.
Terry Pluto: Yeah, yeah. Trouble’s always in the top three in those. But when you’re in the top 10, you’re good. Yeah. And when you’re a rookie and you’re just finding your way. Because at this point in Chubb’s career, we didn’t know what we had here watching him. We being the fans and media. I’m not talking about we. The Browns, and I remember they were. I want to say that Dorsey traded. There’s another veteran running back in front of him whose name I forget. And Dorsey flat out just traded the guy like around the trading deadline just to get him out of there, to get Chubb more time. And then Chud started to break through, but it wasn’t until like really Chubb’s second year that we had an idea how terrific this guy was going to be.
David Campbell: All right, you want.
Terry Pluto: Those are great. Those are great stats. So what he has. What is he having? Gabriel.
David Campbell: All right, so Gabriel, his average intended air yards, which is how long the ball is supposed to travel through the air when you throw it. It’s a league low 5.5 for the season, and it was 4.3 yards intended air yards per pass on Sunday. That was the second lowest in the league.
Terry Pluto: Kind of throw that game out, though. I really do. I didn’t want to throwing the ball into whatever that was, but go ahead. But 5.25.
David Campbell: Here’s some season stats which might be a little bit more.
Terry Pluto: Those are real interesting. Yeah.
David Campbell: All right. And these are from PFF and also mentioned in Dan’s column. But his average depth of target for the season is A league low 6.1 yards per attempt. So that’s just to show you people are like, the Browns are not pushing the ball down the field. That is just statistical confirmation of that. And also his 4.7 average depth of target ranked second lowest in the league. So the Browns have to figure out how they’re going to loosen that box up.
Terry Pluto: And then it’s remarkable. They threw the ball 52 times against Pittsburgh and you still have that.
David Campbell: That’s what they’re up against.
Terry Pluto: Yes.
David Campbell: Is an offensive line that has had issues and that’s getting the ball down.
Terry Pluto: You know, you laugh when I said it, but if they’re going to throw the ball 40 times, you might as well play Shador.
David Campbell: No, no, I, I, that’s, I mean.
Terry Pluto: You might as well play them if that’s what you want to do. I’m not saying you should. I think it’s dumb. But if that’s what you want to do, if you want to be first or second in the league in pass attempts, then you might as well just play Shador and see how that goes. Because we know how this will go. Not good. Yeah.
David Campbell: I found this while we’re on the rookies. Terry, I thought this was interesting. This is from NFL Plus. The rookie class of this year for the whole NFL has been doing, has been producing more yards from scrimmage, like, than any other rookie class in the modern era. Yeah. Through weeks, from weeks one through seven, rookies have produced 9,523 yards from scrimmage. And that is first all time for any draft class. Just to show you how many these guys are playing, making an impact.
Terry Pluto: Yeah, that’s. That would be my thought. They’re playing more.
David Campbell: They have 66 touchdowns from scrimmage, which is first all time. They have 5,952 receiving yards, which is second all time. And they have 38 receiving touchdowns, which is tied for first all time. And there’s three rookies who already have 500 scrimmage yards this year. One of them is Quinchon Judges.
Terry Pluto: I’m saying he’s at 460 rushing.
David Campbell: So, yeah, so he’s got 529 from scrimmage. Ashton Janthy from the Raiders is at 531, and Cam Scatter, Scatter Boo from the Giants is at 587. So, anyway, the rookie class is having.
Terry Pluto: A banner year and I will also give some. You know, we’ve given Barry a lot of problems on different things, but I will give him credit on he. I was leading towards Henriksen versus Junkins, and I think he got that one right. We’ll see. But certainly only returns. And his, his thinking, too, was that Junkins was successful in the SEC on a team that didn’t have as much talent as Ohio State. That’s part of what went into it also, I think, just physically, how impressive Judkins is. And he does have that Nick Chubb quality of in the open field. He gains speed when they’re coming after him. There’s a different gear.
David Campbell: And you can see that kick in.
Terry Pluto: Yeah.
David Campbell: All right. Do you want to talk kickers real quick? We got a few more Browns things here.
Terry Pluto: Yeah, so, I mean, he’s a rookie too. True. Andre Smith missed only one field goal since the dreaded Cincinnati game, and now we’ll see how it goes the rest of the year. David. But this is something you watch as somebody who watches kickers a lot, you know, how you handle the ad, the adversity, and then also how you deal with yourself as an adversary. By that, I mean the doubts in your head. This guy was with Chicago and somewhere else. He’s been caught a few times. And then you have the whole. You have your teammates looking at you sideways because you blew the first game, you couldn’t kick a 36 yard field goal to win it. And then you have everybody screaming, you know, get him out of here. And you also know they’re all friends. It’s a small fraternity. The kickers that, you know, they text each other to know who’s getting caught. They know who’s on there. They’re encouraging their friends who are not. You know, basically they’re sending encouraging texts to each other. Unless they’re a guy who doesn’t have a job, then you’re kind of just waiting and watching.
David Campbell: Like they’re aspiring actors. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Terry Pluto: Right. You know, if they got the part into play, they’re. They’re helping the other guy. But it’s, it’s, it’s from remarkable what they go through. And so I’m, I’m getting really interested in him. It’s, it’s kind of like it was sort of a dumb idea on my part, but I wanted them to try it. Remember we were sitting at the game Sunday, I forgot how long the field goal was going to be. I think they ended up punting, but it’s going to be like a 54 yarder in that bad weather. And I sort of wanted them to try it because just for. To see what he does. And I also like that at that point the game is pretty much in hand and my feeling was if he nails it, great. If he isn’t, it’s like it was sort of a no lose situation. But I’m sure they were. And you mentioned look the way it’s the Browns that all of a sudden Miami blocks it, they run it back, they score, and then who knows what. All of a sudden, you know, all the Lions have escaped the pay the cages and it’s chaos. So you probably were right. But the kick, the kicker part of me wanted to see what he would have done.
David Campbell: Yeah, he’ll get some opportunities this this upcoming week. Probably from that distance. We’ll see what happens, right?
Terry Pluto: Yeah.
David Campbell: I mean my thing was just like, don’t risk it. Like the Browns. You’re right. The Browns have the game in hand and bad things can happen.
Terry Pluto: Bad things can happen. Yeah. And you can. It doesn’t take much. It was wet, you know, the snap could have been dropped or just wrong direction, all that kind of stuff. All right.
David Campbell: All right, let’s see a couple of emails here.
Terry Pluto: Okay.
David Campbell: Why don’t we do. Let’s, let’s do this one first because this is the Tyson Campbell one I was trying to find. This is from Glenn Berger in Strongsville. And Glenn says, hey Dave, I listen to your podcast with Terry today. I enjoy listening to it when I walk the indoor track at the Strongsville Rec Center. Oh, thanks for that. I enjoyed your comments on new Browns quarterback Tyson Campbell lining up opposite DK Metcalf of the Steelers. I was surprised how big Metcalf is while watching the Brown Steelers game. I googled Metcalfe to verify his size. He’s 6, 4, 2, 29. Denzel Ward is listed as 5, 11, 190. Even though Ward is the Browns best defender, Metcalf would have had 39 pounds and 5 inches on him. I believe that’s the reason why the Browns decided to have Campbell a bigger defender, guard Metcalf instead of Ward. Keep up the good work. Thanks, Glenn. That is a really good point. Which I had not thought of.
Terry Pluto: Nope. And we did. We knew nothing about Campbell here, unless you’re hardcore, but that is a great point. Other than you could tell physically, he’s. He. He’s.
David Campbell: Yeah, he’s 6 1. He’s listed 61 1.
Terry Pluto: 95. See, now he looks bigger. He does. He looks bigger than that to me.
David Campbell: My thing was Denzel Ward’s ball, and he had a deflection that game, too, on Metcalf where he. He was all over him, stuck his hand and broke the pass up. Like, that’s what I thought would be the plan for the Browns.
Terry Pluto: Yeah.
David Campbell: And instead Metcalf ended up with four catches for 95 yards and a touchdown. Like, could they have kept that down a little bit if they had put Ward on him? That was kind of what I wanted to see. But Glenn, that’s a great point which I hadn’t thought of. And Tyson Campbell is certainly physical and Metcalf’s a physical defender.
Terry Pluto: The guy, I mean, I’m sure he’s played against Metcalf before, but they handed the guy the playbook. I think he got into town with Tuesday or Wednesday of that game. That game. And so that’s encouraging. Yeah.
David Campbell: Thanks for that email, Glenn. Really thoughtful. Let’s see what else we got here. Oh, here’s a question from Steve, and he has a question about Jerome Ford. He says, as you commented on your podcast, Jerome Ford seemed to have a lot of carries. I was wondering if the Browns were showcasing him for a potential trade. Not that he was all that great, but I have seen a couple of national articles last in the last week that indicated some teams were looking for running backs. And Ford was a specific. Was specifically listed in at least one article linking him to one of the Los Angeles teams. Always enjoy your insights, Steve. What do you think about Jerome Ford? Terry?
Terry Pluto: I think if a team wants them, they can get him for a fifth or sixth round pick. Call Andrew Barry Ford, go somewhere. They would roll in the rocket and see what he has behind Judkins. Because you also have Sampton.
David Campbell: That’s true. And yeah, and I think what we’re seeing is Ford more on passing downs and Judkins more on running downs. I think Judkins has 118 touches and Ford has about 41.
Terry Pluto: I think that’s the next part of where you’re going to see Judkins used is some in the passing game because they do think they could throw the ball. So I remember in training camp before the. His holdouts and all that they were running him a lot in those short screen passes and kind of swing passes. And he looked very capable of catching the ball. So.
David Campbell: Yeah, Jerome Ford is. Is certainly capable of breaking a big, big play here and then for. If a team did go to get him. So. All right, thanks for that email, Steve. I have one last thing I wanted to throw out. I, I might have mentioned this to you at the game, Terry, but I just. I think Browns fans are trying to look for some positives this season. And I think that Grant Delpit is really having a remarkable season at safety. And I just want to make sure that I mentioned him real quick. I was looking at the PFF grades for safeties. This was surprising, but not so much for Grant Delpit. Grant Delpit is ranked as the number five safety right now according to pff, and Ronnie Hickman was ranked number three, which really surprised me. I don’t notice Ronnie Hickman as much, but I’ll tell you, when you see Grant Delpit play, he is a rocket. There was a run play the other day, it was a running play, and he came flying up from that safety spot and just stuffed it. And I was like, whoa, that is some Pro bowl, all pro level type of play right there. And he is the third best safety in the league right now according to PFF against the run. And if you’re looking for somebody who is really playing well for the Browns right now, I would say keep your eye on Delpic because he’s. He’s really having just an exceptional season.
Terry Pluto: I just feel I have not watched him, but I heard I was looking at some numbers and I forgot offhand. Exactly. But Alex Wright is supposed to be very good against the run, also guarding the edge in that. So I’m going to kind of watch that when they play New England and, and go from there. How about the Jets? Who’s coming up next? The owner. The owner ripped the quarterback and, you know, it’s just. See, now that’s internal discord there.
David Campbell: That is. That’s definitely. That’s the picture of it.
Terry Pluto: Yeah. I don’t know why the owner was giving a press conference, but he was. I think. I think it started as a vote of confidence for Glenn, the coach, and just went into ripping Justin Fields up and down. Well, the guy had like a zero rating or something. It’s like, oh, Lord, even Jimmy Haslam didn’t go down that road.
David Campbell: Well, I was hard on Coach Glenn last week, Aaron Glenn last week. So I’m going to lay off.
Terry Pluto: Don’t do it again. The man has enough problems.
David Campbell: He does. So. All right, we done on the Browns here?
Terry Pluto: Yeah. I think so.
David Campbell: All right. Well, they are playing the Patriots on Sunday at 1 and then they will have their bye week kind of pretty much halfway through the season. So we’ll see how that one goes. And I think you’re right, Terry, that will be one of the storylines. How are the Browns going to portion their run pass split and we’ll see what happens. Okay. Should we take a quick break here?
Terry Pluto: Okay, very good.
David Campbell: We are going to talk some baseball when we return and all these former guardians who are having a role in the playoffs so far. We’ll get into that and more when we return on Terry’s Talking. All right, we’re back on Terry’s Talking. Terry, I did want to take a minute. I’m sure your hand is still cramped from signing hundreds of copies of your new book over the last couple weeks. But again, if you want to check it out, go to terryplutobook.com how’s it been going so far and what kind of reception you’ve been getting?
Terry Pluto: Really? We’re just been selling them online first. They haven’t really gotten out in the stores. I think Amazon has some. But the nice thing, if you go to terrypolutobook.com they’re signed and they’ll send it right to your door. So you do that. But I’m, I’m very, very encouraged by a couple people that ready to ready. And then also, David, we’re going to start running excerpts, I guess within the next week and a half or so on the point.
David Campbell: Yeah, absolutely.
Terry Pluto: Yeah. So you get that. By the way, before we go last, remember last week we had the question about the Haslams and will they sell or. And I talked a little bit about how the, these guys are basically conglomerates now and how they collect sports franchises. And I wrote in depth about this in this upcoming newsletter this week. But so I just sort of looked at, you know, the, the Blitzer Harris Company, which is who bought into that there. They have the New Jersey Devils in the NHL. They have the Commanders, they have the Guardians, they have the NBA, they have the Sixers, they’ve got a whole bunch of soccer teams. Another big group is called Fenway Sports Group. They own the Red Sox, they own the Penguins, they own Liverpool, they own NASCAR and they own the New England Sports Network.
David Campbell: LeBron is part of that.
Terry Pluto: LeBron is a minority owner of that, a small percentage. And so when you. I have a bunch of other examples. So. But what doesn’t what fans think, oh good, they bought into that. They’re immediately going to change how you do business. The answer is no. I mean, they may bring in some more capital, but you’re not going to see these teams just, just because they get bought by one of these groups. There’s the. I’m going to mispronounce it. It’s the group that owns the cranky. Cranky.
David Campbell: Cranky.
Terry Pluto: Yep. Right. You know, they own, they bought the. For example, they have the Colorado Rockies. That ain’t going anywhere. And in the Avalanche. So I guess just what we need to do. We have to look at this differently. This isn’t like George Steinbrenner bought the Yankees in the old days and it’s here we go. Spend away. It’s just a different, it’s a whole different world. So enough about. There’s a lot more about that in newsletter at some length and But I just. Because follow up. We started this last week.
David Campbell: Yeah. And again, if you want to sign up for Terry’s newsletter, go to cleveland.com Pluto There’s a blue bar at the top and we’ll show you how to subscribe. I think you get two weeks free. It comes out every Wednesday and it’s chock full of all kinds of good stuff like Terry was just talking about. And again, Terry’s book, the title is why can’t this Team Just Find a Quarterback? And Other Thoughts on Life in Brownstown. And again, if you go to terryplutobook.com 1795. Right. Makes a great present for the holidays.
Terry Pluto: Doug Deacons already read it and texted me. He loved it because there’s also a couple chapters in there about Jimmy Donovan. He said he cried. You know, of course, I was his buddy. You know, I said, me too.
David Campbell: Well, I’m glad you could put a chapter in about there’s, there’s stuff in there about Jimmy and other things, too.
Terry Pluto: As well as the Jimmy, a couple, couple of those in there and some, a lot of voices from fans and why do you follow this miserable team? You can explain it. So. All right, here we go.
David Campbell: Some baseball.
Terry Pluto: Yes.
David Campbell: We got a, we got a couple of emails here, Terry, about, about what’s going on with baseball. All right. The first one is from Jim Mullen and he sent this in and he sent a meme in, Terry, and it says there’s a doctor. And the doctor’s saying, sir, you’ve been in a coma since mid 20. Mid 2022. Josh Naylor, Andres Jimenez, Miles Straw and Ernie Clement playing ALCS Game seven tonight with Shane Bieber on the mound. And Jim says, check out all the former guardians Players in tonight’s ALCS game. You can’t make this up. The joys of rooting for a small payroll team. So yeah, and then this next one’s from Tom Byler. He says, hey guys, great night for Cleveland. And he sent this in on Thursday night. Joe Flacco, 342 yards, three touchdowns, near perfect last drive to set up game winning field goal, Josh Naylor, 3 for 3 with Homer Miles Straw. Run scored, Ernie Clement, two hits, run scored, Andres Jimenez, 2 for 3, Homer, second straight game, four RBIs. Oh wait, Smiley face. Thanks for that, Tom. Yeah, really interesting week for Cleveland fans in terms of watching former guardians in the playoffs. What did you think of what was going down?
Terry Pluto: Here’s an interesting sidelight to that. You know, the guard, excuse me. The Blue Jays are run by Mark Shapiro, who ran the Tribe for years. And Ross Atkins, his assistant also was in Cleveland when they traded for Jimenez. And they brought in picked at Straws contract, by the way, which was 6.4 million this year, 7.4 million next year, and then there’s some options for 8 million. And they were criticized like why are you bringing these Cleveland guys in? Because Jimenez’s contract goes on forever. It’s like 15.6 in 26, then the next three years fully guaranteed at nearly 24 million a year. And of course Jimenez had a terrible regular season. He had 210, was hurt some. You know, Straw’s a backup outfielder and here you are now Clement, they picked up off of waivers, you know, from a couple other teams and he’s played great. And then they made a really smart trade for Bieber because they gave up on their top pitching prospects, but they didn’t care. They’re going for it. You know, the, the Toronto is a big market team, they’re fifth in payroll. And I remember talking to Shapiro for years ago, he said, you know, we are Canada’s team. There’s no other major league team in Canada. And so their revenue, you know, from all kinds of further basically what amount to like their cable or their broadcast rights to go across the whole country. And so they operate, if you’ve been to Toronto lately, I mean, just gets bigger and bigger. I mean it’s their version of New York City. So they, they’ve been able to do that. There’s been a lot of pressure on them to, to finally have the kind of year they’re having now and they’ve come through. So that, that’s the thing there. But really you look at how these guys played in the regular season, Jimenez wasn’t very good at all. Straub was better than here than he was here, but he had. 262, 680 ops. You know, it was okay. He’s good defensively. Clement is the one that’s just been a revelation. Nobody saw that. I mean, the guy’s hitting.420 in the postseason and you know, he’s a good player. How about this? Clement is on like a $2 million contract this year. Then the next three years he’s arbitration eligible, which means he’s four years away from free agency. Man, and he’s just a guy. I think Oakland had him after Cleveland cut him. Oakland had him and cut him. Somebody else had him and cut him. So baseball, you know, you get a lot of that in baseball. I think more than some other sports where not only is a guy get cut a few times, he goes somewhere else. It ends up being pretty good. It’s not just a fill in player. So.
David Campbell: So how should Guardians fans feel about what has happened here?
Terry Pluto: Probably mad. I mean, that’s how you, you go. I mean I look at that and you know, would you run Jimenez with all that money and all his contract going up, but when he hit.210, I mean, I wouldn’t. The problem is that trade led to Ortiz and where’s Ortiz? Probably not ever getting. Certainly never going to play here again, even if he’s cleared in some ways. So you’d be upset about that, you know, straw center field. I, you know, whatever that happens.
David Campbell: Yeah, yeah.
Terry Pluto: The Clement thing defies logic. He gave him like 7 or 800 at bats here. He didn’t do much. And the Bieber thing, I felt kind of iffy on the Bieber thing too. I understood it because he’s going to be a free agent. But it’s like you went through all that stuff to rehab them and it would have been nice to have him in some of those big games.
David Campbell: Yeah. Another year after this one, right to 2020.
Terry Pluto: It’s a player option.
David Campbell: Oh, that’s right. It was a player option for 16 million I think.
Terry Pluto: Right.
David Campbell: So he would have bailed on called.
Terry Pluto: Mutual option, which is really a player option.
David Campbell: Yes.
Terry Pluto: Yeah. I don’t know why they say that. I’ve never seen both sides pick up a mutual option. It’s just dumb. The regular season, Sean Shane was 4 and 2 with a 357 ERA. In the postseason he has a 4.38 ERA. Of course they’re doing the same stuff with him. That drives me nuts now in the Postseason. They start a guy and then they can’t wait to get him out of the game. It’s like, oh man, he’s in the fourth inning. You think it’s like old horse robber and throwing 552 pitches. It’s like, come on, jeez. And then you know what you get into? There was an old baseball writer named Bill Madden from, I think New York Daily News. He was with for years. And we’d be watching games in Yankee Stadium. And this was even when they weren’t changing pitchers as much as they do now. And after about the third or fourth pitching change, Bill was lean over to like myself and Sheldon Ochre. And this is the old days. He goes, ah, yes, the eternal search for the guy who doesn’t have it. I’m just going to go into the bullpen until I finally find the guy that can’t get anybody out. And I think this is the guy. But it feels like that.
David Campbell: Yeah. All right, so you wrote the last couple days you’re kind of getting a little bit into the finance of baseball. We do have a couple of emails here and I wanted to get your thoughts on a couple of them. This first one is from Neil in Jamestown, New York. Neil’s a longtime listener. He says. Hey Terry, I appreciated your column on the economics of baseball, the haves and have nots. Though you can point to the Guardians success in getting to the playoffs, I would raise the following points. Would anyone in their right mind have expected the 24 Guardians to beat the Yankees in the ALCS? Of course not. Point to the haves. And even since 2016, when Cleveland went to the World Series, a whole lot has changed to the benefit of the halves. As things are today, there is no way the Guardians go to and win a World Series. Thanks for that one, Neal. Our next one is from Ilya Friedman. Ilya is a longtime listener from Portland. He says. Hey guys, as always, I love the podcast and Terry’s articles and newsletter every week. I haven’t written in a while, but I wanted to share this little bit of trivia. I’m watching the Dodgers destroy the brewers in what has been some of the boringest baseball I’ve seen postseason. I decided to take a look in the wild card era. Now 31 years old, there have been four small market teams that have won the World Series. Two of those, I’ll point out, were the Marlins, who immediately disbanded both teams after winning it all. There’s been one in the past 20 years. The sad truth is that the odds of winning the World Series is an extreme long shot for a small market team, let alone retaining a winning team year after year. What the Guardians have done over this era is simply miraculous. It’s disappointing that the odds of winning the World Series are so steep, even with an amazingly well run organization. Keep up the great work. Ilya Friedman from He says, from quote, war torn Portland, Oregon and he says the four teams are the 97 Marlins, the 2001 Diamondbacks, the 2003 Marlins and the 2015 Royals.
Terry Pluto: Yeah.
David Campbell: So what do you think about that, Terry? Is it right to think that the Guardians can’t really win this thing ever or is that kind of too, kind of discouraging?
Terry Pluto: It is discouraging to see that because you try to hope that getting in these postseason games where it’s best of five or best of three, best of seven, it isn’t like you have to beat them in best of 19. You know, you, you could just have a really good week and knock somebody off. But the stats are the stats. Now the union will counter within the last 10 years the. And I had that in my story. But you know, you have the Yankees, you have the Dodgers, you have the Astros, and the Astros spend a fair amount too. But the other two winning as teams in the last five years are Milwaukee and Cleveland.
David Campbell: So the unit through the top five, you had it.
Terry Pluto: Yeah, go ahead.
David Campbell: I think I have it. So the Dodgers, in the last 10 years, the Dodgers have the most wins. 944, Houston 890, Yankees 872, Cleveland 843 and Milwaukee 836. And then the payroll thing you’re talking about, it goes Mets, Dodgers, Yankees, Phillies. And then you mentioned the Blue Jays earlier. Yeah, the Guardians are down at 25 and these are opening day, so.
Terry Pluto: Yeah, opening day.
David Campbell: Sorry, Terry, go ahead. I just wanted to.
Terry Pluto: No, that’s fine. I’m glad you did. Well, the other interesting stat in there is because I also kind of picked 10 years because it’s a 10 year frame and that’s kind of when that, that got back to the Jose, you know, Ramirez, are they waste. Is he wasting his career? And I believe there’s only three other American League players have been in the postseason in more times than Jose in the last 10 years. Two with the, the Astros. Well, Bergman is no longer there. He was one, Altuve was the other and the third was Aaron Judge. And then Jose’s number four on that list. So what, you know what this shows with Milwaukee and Cleveland is like if you’re really well run, isn’t that interesting? Over the long haul you cannot play these other teams, but then you run into them in a series and it seems like you get bounced. So I was thinking, why is that? I have 130, but why don’t you try take a shot, David.
David Campbell: Well, I think you were alluding to this, Terry. The longer a series goes in any sport, the more chance there is that the better team will win. I mean that’s pretty much true in every, every sport, right?
Terry Pluto: That’s correct. Yeah. Secondly, in general, in the playoffs, this has been Tom Hamilton’s theory for a long time and I had, I don’t have any stats to verify it, but if you just watch in general, you need home runs to win in the playoffs because it’s hard to string together a bunch of hits because you’re facing better pitchers. Not only because, for example, with the higher paid pitchers, but you’re also using, you see, starters are coming in out of the bullpen and everything else. And if you remember when they ran into the Yankees, you know, John Carlos Stanton or somebody else would beat him with the home run, that’s, that really is the changing thing. And odds are if you have a smaller payroll like mentioned, I forgot who wrote in about watching the Dodgers. Just this man on Milwaukee, you’re not going to be able, you’re not going to be able to out hit them, you know, so that, that’s probably what happens in the short series. But it is phenomenal that Milwaukee and Cleveland are in a top five winningest team. It’s over the last 10 years. I mean it’s not like that’s not a fluke.
David Campbell: Yeah.
Terry Pluto: But it does hurt them, you know, come playoff time and you know, so that the other reason baseball needs a salary cap is perception. You don’t hear this in other sports. I mean nobody sits around and says in the NFL or the NHL or certain the NBA, my team has no chance because it’s a small market and they can’t afford to do whatever. You may say my team has no chance because it’s run by idiots. But you, right, I mean, yeah, my team has no chance. Maybe because they can’t find a quarterback, but you’re just not, you’re not, you just don’t get. Yeah, some teams spend more than others. I mean right now I think that the cast payroll may be the highest in the NBA because they hit that second apron. Yeah. You know, their number one. It isn’t like the Dodgers have spent, what are they paying, 400 million for their team. And then you got teams like Miami and all that are paying like 60 or 70 million. You don’t have that kind of discrepancy. And in those sports. So.
David Campbell: Yeah, so you’re right. So the mets are number one, right. At 323 million. And just for perspective, the Marlins. 67 million.
Terry Pluto: Right.
David Campbell: So that’s like four. At least four times more.
Terry Pluto: And I think the Dodgers hit some kind of luxury tax thing that kicks them up to 400. Regardless. It’s a whole bunch. Yeah. And. Yeah. Yeah. So five times difference from 60 million to 300 million. You just don’t get that in the other sports. And also you just don’t hear it. And I think that’s important because the other problem is when you’re in baseball, whether you’re in Cleveland or Milwaukee or wherever, it’s well run. You just. They’ll say, we still don’t have a chance. Fair or not. You say we still. Now, hockey’s got a. They have a fairly tight cap. I don’t know that that well, do they?
David Campbell: Yeah. There’s a floor and a ceiling. Yep.
Terry Pluto: Yeah. And it’s exactly what you need. You shouldn’t have a team in baseball only spending 60 million. The union’s right about that. You know, if you want a cap, you also got to spend 100 million or something. You know, there’s got to be ways. And I know the NBA has a four. I believe the NFL does this. Hockey.
David Campbell: Yes.
Terry Pluto: Yeah.
David Campbell: And they. And they keep track of their cap, like, every day. Like it’s measured every single day.
Terry Pluto: They should, because that. To make it fair.
David Campbell: But I just don’t know. I don’t know what they’re gonna be able to do. And I think you’ve alluded to this, Terry, like there might be a work stoppage after next season. The union has a lot of power in baseball, and they’ve. They’ve never buckled.
Terry Pluto: I don’t think they face quite like Manfred either. I mean, he, you know, he’s come up with stuff that he wanted to do. The union didn’t want any of it. Unit didn’t want the pitch clock. Union doesn’t want the ghost. The union didn’t want anything. Whatever baseball wanted, the union didn’t want it. And Manfred, you know, used whatever power he could to get those in. And most of the changes have been good. I mean, I. I still get emails from fans that said, you know, you were right about the pitch clock. It’s a much better game. All that kind of stuff. I mean, these playoff games are going four hours. Remember that before the pitch. Oh yeah, it just never ended. Now how that will apply to a labor negotiation, I don’t know. But I think they’re going to go for it.
David Campbell: All right. Hey, I did want it real quick. Tara, we’re, we’re getting toward the end here, but have you ever seen anything like what Shohei Ohtani did the other day for the Dodgers? He pitched six innings in a playoff game.
Terry Pluto: Little League maybe, I don’t know.
David Campbell: Struck out 10 guys and then hit three home runs. Like no, I was trying to think like did Babe Ruth ever do something like this? But I think when he was pitching, when he was pitching for the Red Sox, I don’t think he was like hitting like he would become. And then he stopped pitching when he went to the Yankees and then he started hitting home runs and just historic fashion. But like for one guy to do, I don’t think this has ever been done. I can’t think of anything like I’m.
Terry Pluto: Trying to think even go back to like when I was a high school Benedictine and we played some big time teams or something. I, in the pitcher would be the best player. But I don’t remember that. I mean I’m sure somebody out there has some story about somewhere or other, but that would be it. And it’s just incredible. And, and then on top of it, you know, the, the Ohtani contract by the way, is paid out over that. They ought to legislate against that too. Oh yeah, it’s very easy compensation. I’m not going to get into all that. It was clearly a play on his own part just to go to LA and help the Dodgers and that, as they say, that ought to not be allowed. So hopefully we’ll see.
David Campbell: All right, let’s move on to the Cavs. It’s funny you were talking about salaries, Terry, because I pulled a thing from. I saw a graphic from spotrack. Yeah, the salary tracking thing. And the Cavs do have the highest 20, 25, 26 payload right now. I think they had it at 228.6 million. The warriors are second at 205. Mavericks third at 204. So anyway, I’m trying to think.
Terry Pluto: I think the bottom is like a hundred thousand, 100 million or something. Isn’t it in the NBA?
David Campbell: Yeah, yeah, it’s somewhere down there.
Terry Pluto: So anyway, I mean point the spread. There’s a spread, but it’s just not like what we just talked about. 60 million to 300 and some million go ahead.
David Campbell: And the other. And also in basketball, like we don’t want to get all salary focused here. But in teams, draft guys decide they want to keep them, sign them to max contract, max contracts and then they go to the top of the list and then there’s always a tear down usually and they fall back to the bottom. Like the T Wolves are in the top 10. And you know, they’re not the hugest market, but the Mavericks are, you know, so it’s like, I think that number kind of rises and falls.
Terry Pluto: You, you have, you have, you don’t have a farm system. Yes, you have the geely team, but you’re bringing those guys in. Maybe it’s 10 guys or 12 guys. Whatever it is you’re paying them. I don’t know even what it was. It’s maybe half of the hundred thousand or whatever the million, whatever the, excuse me, whatever the minimum salary is. I mean, half a million. I don’t know. It’s cheap. That’s the point. And so you don’t have. You throw a lot of money there. But the thing that the baseball, couple, baseball executives, I know that they love that the NBA has and they wish that they had was the maximum contract situation. They’re either four years or five years depending upon different things because yeah, they’re a lot of money, but it’s like you got a chance if you, you give the guy, even if you’re in a smaller market and say you, you know, you give the guy 250. I think Donovan makes 250 million a year. So you give them that say, and then you go, you know, we’re in the year three, he’s still a good player, we stink. You can trade them. It’s not like these 14 year contracts or whatever. You can move that guy and it would, he says it encourages. That’s why you see the medium and smaller market teams or will go in on a max contract because it’s, it’s not lethal to the franchise like it is in baseball with.
David Campbell: Yeah, that’s a good point.
Terry Pluto: How long are these contracts going to go? I mean, it’s.
David Campbell: That’S going to be of just a tooth and nail negotiation.
Terry Pluto: That’s why I think it’s going to be brutal. Yeah.
David Campbell: Yeah. All right, so the Cavs, Terry, open their season Wednesday night, the 22nd against the Knicks. I think I said at the beginning that it was the 22nd. This is only the 21st day. We’re taping this on Tuesday, tomorrow. Sorry about that. But the Knicks game is in New York Wednesday night at 7. It’s a national TV game. Then they’re going to head over to Brooklyn and play the Nets on Friday. And then the home opener for the Cavs is Sunday night, the 26th against the Bucs. It’s a 6pm Tip down at Rocket Arena. I think you were mentioning to me that you aren’t hearing as much buzz about the Cavs this year. Why do you think that is?
Terry Pluto: I think because the feeling is they’ve lost in the second round the last two years and they’ll probably do it again. How’s that?
David Campbell: Yeah, I guess I don’t understand that sentiment a little bit. And so, like, I’m trying to put myself back during the LeBron era. Right. And in 2015, what happened? And the Cavs lost love Kyrie during the playoffs. LeBron was. He basically dragged them to the finals and they lost. I feel that’s like, where this Cavs franchise is right now. Like, they tried to make a run last year, everybody got hurt, and now they’re back for another shot.
Terry Pluto: So.
David Campbell: And the east is there for the taking. So I think fans should probably be more encouraged than they are, if that’s the sense you’re getting.
Terry Pluto: Yeah, I don’t know what else. I mean, the hardcore people I’m hearing from that they love the cast. You know, Caitlin Thompson, you know, she loves them big, longtime fan. She. Caitlin is. Is blind and she listens and that, and she was close with Joe Tate, and she just. I mean, she writes me and stuff. You could tell she’s really on to what’s going on, the email she sends me. So, I mean, those fans are there and they. They’re going to draw. They’re going to draw big, but I. I just hear very little buzz. I also think this, they are a drama free team. I wrote a story today on Kenny Atkinson, and at one point he was talking to me. These are great guys. He goes, they’re fine, fine gentlemen. I’ve never really heard a coach say that, but. But remember this guy also, a few years ago when he was head coach, he ended up coaching Kyrie and a couple of these other guys in Brooklyn who were not exactly fine, fine gentlemen. So. And that doesn’t mean they’re soft. It just meant that, you know, this is. They’re good character guys. There’s not a lot of drama around the Cavs. I mean, they’re kind of like the guardians. Like, you know, Jose Ramirez is their best player, and he’s one of their best guys. Donovan Mitchell’s their best player. He’s one of their best guys. And they don’t do stupid stuff, the team in general. So maybe that’s part of it. And so we need to see them play. They didn’t make any huge moves in the off season. I mean, you have to be kind of really into basketball to know why getting Alonzo Ball and Laurie Nash Jr are important in terms of good role players. But it’s not. The average fan isn’t going to be into that. I don’t fault them for that. You can’t follow everything closely.
David Campbell: So I wanted to mention we’re doing a lot of preview stuff this week and you mentioned your column. Chris Fedor, our colleague, has a really great feature today with Donovan Mitchell where they gotta read, they really got. You gotta check it out. It’s cleveland.com sports right now. And also Ethan Sands are the other beat writer covering the team. He and he and Jimmy Watkins both have some bold predictions for the season. Go check those out. And check out Terry’s column about Kenny Atkinson. But so one of the things we’ve been talking about in our meetings, Terry, is what does a successful regular season look like to you? And just real quick, it doesn’t have to be a record or anything, but what do you think? What do they need to accomplish that’s most important in this regular season that’s coming up?
Terry Pluto: Here’s what’s really bad, I would say exactly what they did last year and it didn’t work out, which was they had pretty much everybody healthy going into the playoffs. Their key guys, the core four, all played the fewest minutes of their career with the exception of Jared Allen, and he was just barely above his fewest minutes. They got a better bench, they increased their offense. They did all this stuff that was laid out as plans for Kenny to do. And then they got to the playoffs and everybody got hurt anyway. So I know that the goal this year is trying to get them to be more aggressive defensively and to handle defensive pressure more. Because Indiana, Oklahoma City, right now, that’s kind of the rage in the NBA. They get up in your face. It isn’t about being tough like the bad boys in the old days. It’s about being mentally tougher. You know, make sure you’re blocking out on missed free throws, all that kind of stuff. So they’ve worked a lot on that. They’ve worked a lot on bringing the ball up the court quickly. Alonzo ball, I love it. He passes the ball the floor, you know, he’ll throw 40, 40, 50 foot chest pass and hit a guy that got to just to Keep it moving. So they’re trying to do that, but I. The regular season, other than maybe, you know, some of that stuff, I don’t have it. That’s the problem. I don’t have any good ideas. Or maybe there’s. Why there’s not much buzz. It isn’t like they brought in some. Some star. No, they’re gonna, you know, re. Reframe it. And so it’s. I just think they’re really good. And sometimes what didn’t work the year before, even though it was done correctly, you come back with it, some semblance of it without. Basically, you repaint the race car. You don’t rip the engine out, and then you put it on the track again and maybe you change some filters or whatever. And now all of a sudden that car is running with the leaders. And I think this should be at least a Final Four team, you know, on the conference finals.
David Campbell: And just like the 2015 through 2018 run like the windows. Oh, it’s an open window. And it wasn’t like. You see, some teams are just like, well, this was our shot and it’s over. Like, that was not last year. So there’s some hope there if you’re a Cavs fan.
Terry Pluto: So, I mean, you look at this. I mean, I’ll be interested to see how Garland is, how after he plays, he had major toe surgery and how he holds up. But, you know, Donovan is. I think he’s 29. He’s right in his prime. You look at Mobley is getting better and better. Jared Allen is a really, really good second big man. You know, Atkinson loves him because he wants that defensive presence. If you’re going to have smaller guards with Garland and Donovan, you need a bigger back line that can move. And then also I’ll be very interested early on, we’ll see Donovan with the ball a lot more. And I think that will. That will create, I think, a different look in their offense. Donovan is a terrific passer, too, and he’s about the right stuff. So he could be point guard, he could be shooting guard, he could do whatever needed to be. And hopefully if ball is reasonably healthy in the playoffs, when they run into Indiana or whatever and they start pressing, you won’t have like Ty Jerome backing the ball up the floor because he couldn’t handle the pressure in his face. You know, that that’s where he was kind of unveiled. Miami, you know, he took apart Miami, but Indiana. Just remember Indiana took apart three good teams in a row. That took apart Milwaukee, they took apart Cleveland, they Took apart New York just, just took them apart. And they were on the verge, I think, of winning the whole thing when Halliburton blew his Achilles in Game seven and he was already playing with a bad Achilles before that.
David Campbell: Yeah. And with the way the east is set up right now, it’s all there for the Cavs. So with the injuries and also. All right, I think we’re good. Anything else you want to get into, Terry, before we wrap up here?
Terry Pluto: That is it for me.
David Campbell: I did want to mention, if you haven’t seen Terry’s Faith in you column the last couple of weeks, this really resonated with people. Terry, you wrote about grave sites and how you kind of changed how you felt about him a little bit. Yeah, went. And you’ve just gotten hundreds and hundreds of emails from people about what visiting a gravesite does for them means to them. The one story where somebody was looking for some a relative’s grave and couldn’t find it and they kind of looked up to heaven and they said, well, I guess we’re ever gonna find it. And then he turned around and it.
Terry Pluto: Was like a couple steps. That’s right there.
David Campbell: Yeah, it was right there. That was it.
Terry Pluto: Yeah, because. Yeah, do check it in. And because I wrote about going to the graveside of Gloria Williams, who was like a sister to Roberta and I and on the two year anniversary her death. And that was a tough one for me because I was the one that found her dead on her floor. When I went to pick her up to take her to work at Walmart, she couldn’t drive. And for years she dealt with a real severe form of epilepsy and that is what took her life, a bad seizure. And anyway, so I went with some of her relatives and we kind of talked, told glorious stories and kind of said her prayer was nice. You know, when you go visit like that with somebody, sometimes you brings up good memories, you know, kind of you focus on them. And so then I just kind of wrote about that and I said I’m just curious to. Do you go to the cemetery much? And the first wave came in about 120 emails and they just kept coming. Then it got up to 203. Then I found about another 30 or 40 in my regular emails because I put a different email and just to send it and they’re still coming in. So this upcoming week there’s a second kind of group of people who wrote about this. I’m going to get off of the subject now, usually at home, if I do a follow up I don’t do another one. But it’s like there’s something going on here that I didn’t realize how important visiting gray sites or people create. While they don’t have the cemetery there, they have put something in their backyard with a memorial for the person. And I’m like this is fascinating to see this. So it’s good. It’s worth reading and we’re thinking about.
David Campbell: All right. Well, you can check out those columns@cleveland.com Pluto and don’t forget about the go buy Terry’s book terryplutobook.com and you’ll find why can’t this team find a quarterback? And other thoughts on life in Brownstown. So. All right, Terry, we’re good. I think we’re going to be taking next week off, right?
Terry Pluto: That is correct.
David Campbell: With the Browns on a buy and we’ll be back in two weeks. We’ll have a lot about, a lot to talk about then. We’ll see you then on Terry’s talk.
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