CLEVELAND, Ohio — It’s time for this week’s edition of the Terry’s Talkin’ podcast, with cleveland.com columnist Terry Pluto and host David Campbell. They talk about the Browns, and whether the change in play caller will make a difference as they head to New Jersey to face the Jets on Sunday.
Also they discuss the Cavs, and Terry’s idea about how they could energize their second unit, based on a throwback plan from the Lenny Wilkens era. They also discuss the Guardians, and the riveting World Series between the Dodgers and Blue Jays.
Highlights:
After the podcast took a week off, Terry shares hiking tips for Wayne National Forest near Marietta.
Terry has some upcoming book signings for his new book, starting this week.
Terry on the Browns’ endless quarterback struggles.
Browns shift play-calling duties from Stefanski to Tommy Rees. Will it matter?
Reese brings college experience.
Terry doubts the change fixes deeper offensive issues, calls it cosmetic.
Compares Browns’ offense to broken car needing major repairs.
Listener email blames Haslams for Browns’ quarterback chaos and dysfunction.
A listener criticizes the Browns for their poor QB evaluations.
Terry questions if Sam Darnold or Geno Smith would have changed Browns’ fate.
Flacco’s Bengals stats spark debate on Browns’ offensive shortcomings.
Browns’ offensive line ranks 31st in true pass set grades.
Rookie Harold Fannin Jr. praised for versatility and strong blocking.
Email asks last fear-inducing Browns receiver; Josh Gordon mentioned.
Browns draft priorities: elite offensive tackle and wide receiver.
Cavs start clunky but show defensive improvement and effort.
Terry suggests a big change off the bench for lineup flexibility.
Mobley and Allen pairing debated; Terry favors creative rotation options.
Donovan Mitchell praised for leadership and relentless effort on court.
Cavs rank third-best regular season record since Mitchell trade.
Terry compares Mitchell’s impact to Jose Ramirez for Guardians.
Terry recaps World Series and Blue Jays’ surprising run.
Ernie Clement’s breakout postseason highlighted as ultimate underdog story.
Clement’s journey: waived by Cleveland, now thriving with Toronto.
Terry calls for MLB salary cap to fix payroll disparity.
Blue Jays’ advantage: Canada-wide market and Rogers-owned media empire.
Guardians praised for stability under Stephen Vogt despite payroll limits.
AL Manager of Year debate.
Here’s the podcast for this week:
If you have a question or a topic you’d like to see included on the podcast, email it to sports@cleveland.com, and put “Terry’s Talkin’” in the subject line.
You can find previous podcasts below.
Also, a transcript of the podcast is below. As it is computer-generated, it may contain many spelling and grammar errors.
David Campbell: Hey, what’s going on? It is time for this week’s edition of Terry’s Talking podcast. We are back after a week off last week before the Browns bye week. How’s it going, Terry? You had a nice trip to Marietta?
Terry Pluto: Yes, we did. We went down for a few days to Southern Ohio. It’s one of our kind of quickie getaways. And, and if you, if you’re into hiking, you gotta realize it’s kind of rustic or whatever. But Wayne National Forest there has some really nice trails. You need to go to the ranger station outside of Marietta, get, get some information there. But in general, very few people are on them. And the other thing that’s been nice, they. Because it’s a combination of state land and federal, but it’s not a national park. They allowed the people who do the mountain biking to develop and redo some of these trails. Oh, nice. It’s been a. Yeah, it’s been really nice. So go for it. And there you go.
David Campbell: All right. Well, the Browns were on a bi week.
Terry Pluto: Oh, wait a minute, wait a minute. Since this. If we do trails, the least I could do is plug my own book. So take.
David Campbell: I was saving.
Terry Pluto: That’s right. So that’ll be Thursday night. Thursday night. All right. At the. Because I haven’t ever been here. The Chagrin falls Town Hall, 6:30, I’ll be speaking and they’ll be selling books after. So it’s kind of like a library talk, only at the Chagrin Town Hall. David Gray, my publisher, set this up, so be interesting. And I know he’s a little nervous to see if anybody shows up. So if you live around there, show up and you know, the usual double your money back guarantee holds. So if you don’t like it, you get double back what you paid to go see it.
David Campbell: All right, well, let me run through the dates real quick. We’re taking this on Tuesday, November 4th around noon.
Terry Pluto: Just do a couple of them.
David Campbell: Yeah, there is one tonight in Menor on November 4th at 6:30. And that’s gonna be at the Barnes and Noble in Menor. And that’s just gonna be a book signing. You mentioned the Chagrin Falls one, which is gonna be Thursday, November 6th. And then next week you’ve got the 13th, November 13th at 6:30 at the Barnes and Noble in Fairlawn and the 18th at. At the Hudson Library in Hudson. That’s also going to be at 6:30. So mark those dates down if you’re in the neighborhood or if you want to make a drive. It’s always great to see Terry. So of course his new book that is just out. Why can’t this Team Just Find a Quarterback? And other thoughts on life in Brownstown. So, all right, you know, David.
Terry Pluto: Yeah, I’ll let you go. But it is segue into play calling and everything else. So, yeah, we’re planning the book. David Gray is my publisher. He’s been my publisher for the last 25 years. So in other words, while they were looking for a quarterback, I found my publisher and stuck with him. Or he found his writer and stuck with me. But anyway, he said, I remember early on the middle of the summer, he goes, well, you don’t think they’ll like have found the quarterback this year? I said, David, no, don’t worry about. This is as close to what I call a bulletproof book as. As you can get. Because I said they’re going to go through a bunch of quarterbacks because by then it was already, you know, Kenny Pickett, Flacco, the two rookies. And I’m like, even if they Flacco does a dollar Flacco, it’s still a one year thing. And I just said it’s. It’s the Brown story. And so. And here we are, we’re now getting into repeating ourselves, as in eight games into it. Oh, well, I’m not going to call plays anymore. Bryce Stefanski.
David Campbell: Yeah, so. So we found out yesterday on Monday when the Browns came back from being off at. Kevin Stefanski is going to hand the play calling off to Tommy Reese, the offensive coordinator. And Tommy Reese has called plays at Notre Dame and Alabama when he was coaching in college. This will be his first time doing it in the NFL. You know, Mary Kay, yesterday was writing about how the. This makes sense because you had to do something. And it’s one of the only things that Stefanski could do right. I mean, short of like the Browns making a trade or changing a quarterback, which he doesn’t want to do. Like this is one of the things that he could do to kind of switch things up, ignite a fire into. Under this thing a little bit. What. What did you think of it?
Terry Pluto: I guess it fells under the heading of why not. I mean, it is kind of like your car isn’t running very well. But maybe we could change the rear bumper. I mean, I’m just. It’s kind of like that. I don’t see it changing. I have to admit, I was just looking at some stuff that Jerry Judy’s got seven drops and. And then you look at what Flacco is doing in Cincinnati. You know, yes, he’s got better receivers, much better receivers, but something else is going on there too, that offense. He doesn’t have a particularly great running game and yet here he is. Four games in 11 touchdowns, two interceptions is very similar to he’s averaging 313 yards with the Bengals per game passing. It’s kind of like when he was 4 and 1 here at the end. Average 323 yards, you know, 13 TDs, eight interceptions. I don’t have a big explanation for any of this other than this thing. This is a car with a lot of things. The tires are blown out and the radiator shot and everything else. So I guess you could bring in a new mechanic to look at it.
David Campbell: All right, well, you want to talk about Flaka for a minute? We do have a couple of emails here for listeners. Let’s run through it. All right, the first one is hey Terry, I listen to your podcast today and then I’m watching Joe Flacco light it up. I appreciate your insight about Stefanski, the Browns and the Haslams. Nobody in pro football makes the moves the Browns have made at QB the last four to five years unless ownership is pushing them. And nobody survives them job wise unless ownership is pushing them. I’m a lifetime Browns fan, having gone to the last game in 1995 with my dad a few months before he died way too young. I won’t pay a cent to see these pathetic Haslams screw it up and now abandon the downtown. I’m done with them until the Haslams are gone. Sad holding hope for the small market and triple A level guardians or Cavs. But this is worse than Ted Steppy in Time. I’ll keep listening to you though. Go Cavs. And that’s from Bob Dillman. We have one here from listener Tim Yakovano. Tim says, hey guys, maybe this is a little late, but the Browns QB woes lead to the same problem and the same people who can’t. I can’t seem to identify a good quarterback. Andrew Berry and Paul Dipodesta are supposed to be finding the best players for the team. Here are some of the quarterbacks they’ve brought in. Sean Watson, Kyle Lauletta, Nick Mullins, Jacoby Brissette, Joshua Dobbs, Dorian Thompson, Robinson, P.J. walker, Jeff Driscoll and Kenny Pick. Meanwhile, these were available quarterbacks that Barry and Deep Desta passed on. Daniel Jones, Sam Darnold, Geno Smith and Mack Jones. And let’s not forget that they sent Baker Mayfield Packing along with Joe Flacco, who are also enjoying a resurgence of their careers. My point is this. These guys can’t identify a good quarterback. When they do, as in Mayfield and Flacco, they get rid of them regardless of who plays the position. Both Barry and Deep Podesta can find playmakers at the wide receiver position and can’t build a good offensive line. I offer the current Browns roster as evidence of that. Whether or not Kevin Stefanski is a good coach or Dylan Gabriel or Shador Sanders are good quarterbacks, we’ll never know when the rest of the offense is lacking good players at other key positions. And again, that’s from Tim Yakovano. Thanks, Tim.
Terry Pluto: To even take Tim’s point further, suppose they had brought in Darnold or Geno Smith as opposed to Flacco and. And Pickett David, would it be much of a difference?
David Campbell: No. Well, one of the things I wanted to ask you, Terry.
Terry Pluto: So.
David Campbell: So Sunday against the Bears, Joe Flacco throws for 450 yards.
Terry Pluto: We’ve seen her do that. Yeah.
David Campbell: 31 of 47. 470 yards, four touchdowns, two interceptions. Like what do we. What do we learn about the Browns from what we saw from Joe Flacco? I think we should drill down on this for a second.
Terry Pluto: Yeah. I mean, there’s something inherently wrong. Obviously the receipt receivers are nowhere near where the Bengals are, but we also saw Joe throw for 313 yards per game when he had Amari Cooper, but I don’t even remember who the other receivers were. He had Najoku. He threw to a lot of. But on the. The other guys on that team were nothing special and he was doing Flacco like he’s doing Flacco now there I had somebody from the Browns mention to me this is before the last game. Yeah, but what was their. What’s their record there? They’re one and two. I go, don’t go there. I said flacco’s putting up 30 points a game. My. My wife says always. Well, too bad the Bengals couldn’t send their offense here with the Browns defense or the Browns. You know, she’s kind of wants to put together the bronze, right? Yeah. It’s kind of like you put them together and have a draft. I mean, at one point, right before the guns brought bought the Cavaliers, there was a serious discussion in NBA offices. This is in the early 80s. This one step in that messed up the things. This is what we think of it to take the Pacers and the Cavaliers. This is like an 83 or 82 right before the Guns bought it and they were going to combine it into one franchise. Nobody wanted it and played put the best team in Indiana. Really. And then the Guns stepped in with the sweetheart deal and bought the Cavaliers. But there was. That discussion was on the table. We’re to want to have that discussion on the table here and put the team in Cleveland. It’s like, right Joe back with this offense? Yeah, bring Joe back with this offense and put Schwartz’s defense and look out, you will see the greatest second half run in NFL history with that.
David Campbell: Yeah, but I think, I think you’re right, Terry. Like, if, if Joe Flacco was still here, it would be the same story. I saw this stat last week and this was before this past weekend’s games, but there’s a guy named Ben Baldwin, he does a lot of analytics stuff and he posted the pass block grades of offensive linemen in true. In true pass sets. And so what this measures is it doesn’t count plays with less than four pass rushers. It doesn’t count plays with play action. It doesn’t count screen passes or short drop backs or any passes that go away, that get thrown in less than 2 seconds. So this is like a true pass set where you actually need to have good pass blocking on plays that take a little bit of time to develop. And The Browns are 31st in the league ahead of only the Dolphins in terms of true pass set grade.
Terry Pluto: Well, that matches for their offensive line.
David Campbell: It does. Yeah.
Terry Pluto: We just saw the other team. Yeah.
David Campbell: So you put Joe Flacco behind that line still with the receivers, the way the Browns receivers are playing right now, like, I don’t think the results would have been any different than what the Browns are getting. I, I do think Lance Riesland, who does a lot of film breakdowns for us, he did post last week about like, what’s wrong with the Browns offense. And some of it is Kevin Stefanski saying it’s everything. And I know he says that a lot, but he is dead on this time. I mean, there are plays where the receivers are dropping the ball. There are plays where the offensive line isn’t blocking the right guys, and there are plays where David Njoku is running a seam route 30 yards downfield and, and Dylan Gabriel’s not throwing the ball. And you can see David Najoku put his hands up at the end of the play. Like, dude, it was wide open. Why didn’t you throw it to me? So it’s all going wrong right now. And I don’t think Joe Flacco being here would have changed much. Maybe that maybe throwing that ball to Joku would have happened. But I don’t, I don’t think it would have been much better at all.
Terry Pluto: But watching Joe at the end, Flacco at the end here, and I’m a huge Flacco fan and it goes back to in Baltimore, partly because, you know, I know all those guys, Ozzy and Pat Moriarty was my friend who was the, the salary cap guy and Kevin Byrne and, and they just raved to me about Flacco, what a great guy. He is a leader. You know, all the stuff that we saw and that how he was actually underrated and you know, eventually you have to change quarterbacks, but they’ve had only two in the last 15 years or whatever it is there. And so I was always high on him. Of course we’d watch him at the time, all the time, break Cleveland’s heart. And so I’m a huge fan. But I’ll tell you, watching that at the end of Flaco here, I’m going, maybe Father Time has finally caught this guy. Or maybe the Browns are beyond broken right now. I mean, I’m just so discouraged on that because I was hoping this. I’ve written, I think twice. I’ve mentioned why I was wrong on the Browns. I thought they would at least have some sort of watchable offense now that Kevin is taking it over and they don’t have to go through desean Watson land and that maybe it’s hard to run the ball. They’re still number one in passes attempted per game.
David Campbell: For the second year in a row.
Terry Pluto: Yeah, yeah. Moment of silence. How to bury an offense. No, I’m serious. What are you doing being number one with passes per game? Now that’s so interesting to see if that changes with Reese. And it’s not like you’re number one in passes with game because you’re throwing it downfield and kind of like sort of how Joe plays sometimes. You know, there you’re. You’re getting 13 touchdowns and eight interceptions in five games. You know, it’s just, we’re just flinging it. It’s not that at all. In fact, we’re saying, where is that pass? I, I am just totally dumbfounded by this. And that’s why I am curious to see what Reese does.
David Campbell: Well, and to that point, Terry, we’re not even seeing the stuff that Kevin Stefanski ran a few years ago, like the pin pull stuff with the pulling centers and guards and, and it’s kind of the Running game looks different, and I don’t think we’re seeing as much play action. It’s. It’s been really curious to see the mix of stuff they’ve been doing.
Terry Pluto: They do have the same guards and center. I know the tackle’s been a problem, but isn’t. This is for your area, but in a lot of those swinging plays, doesn’t have a lot to do with the guards and center kind of getting out there or.
David Campbell: Yeah, yeah, you have to. The, you know, the outside, the tackling tight end will block down, and the two guys on the interior will pull and lead around the end. And we’re just not seeing that that much this year. It’s been. It’s been interesting. I wonder what the reason is for that.
Terry Pluto: That’s. That’s the most confounding thing with me is what happened to this. This looks like the same garbage from last year, other than that little flurry of games when Jameis was hot and Dorsey was calling place. But, I mean, at this point, after eight games a year ago, they were 2 and 6 and averaging like 15 points a game, and now they’re 2 and 6 and they’re averaging only 15 points a game. And Ken Dorsey steps in, and now Tommy Reese steps in. It’s like, can’t we at least have a little bit of a different movie to watch? I’m very serious.
David Campbell: No, I know. I mean, you know, one positive for the Browns. I think the tough half of their schedule is over, and things are going to get a little bit easier with the jets starting on Sunday. So we’ll see if they can put a couple wins together.
Terry Pluto: I want to ask you, David, to me, there have been a lot of discouraging games this year, but I thought that performance in New England was awful. It was just awful. And I mean, there’s Miles getting five sacks and trying everything he can, and just nothing’s happening. It was just really, really just a mess. So we shall see. All right, I’m done on that.
David Campbell: No, no, it’s fine. I was. I was going to say, Terry, one of the things noticing, like the receiver play is one thing, but to see how they’re not getting open. There was one play late where Judy. Jerry. Judy ran into the end zone, and Christian Gonzalez just totally, just, just pushed him to the sideline and gave him no room in the end zone on that one, on that one play. And like, the. The route, aside from the drops, like, just the route running and the compete level, when the ball’s in the air, it just Seems like it’s not there. And. And I’m sure Chad o’ Shea is hearing about it from, you know, somebody there. Like, listen, we got it. We got to coach these guys up and get. There’s little things like that where it’s like, are you leaving yourself enough room on the sideline to make a play in the end zone? And it was. It was the Browns best number one receiver against the Patriots best defensive back. And it was.
Terry Pluto: They.
David Campbell: The Patriots won that, that play easily there.
Terry Pluto: So, I mean, if I, if I were told, David, what do you think about this? That okay, the Browns make this trade, which I didn’t like, but. And I wrote there, I have to swing over to the Hunter deal is probably going to work out very well for Cleveland now. We’ll see how they do with Hunter. And I think I thought that Jacksonville made a mistake because I just drafted Hunter as receiver, just worked with them totally. There they were. They had him two thirds as a receiver, one third as a cornerback, and probably it added up to like half of as good as he ought to be. But where the Browns come out of that, you know, with Mason Graham, who I think has been okay and is going to be much better as he goes along, and you’ve got Judge, I think he’s an impact back, you know, Sampson, we’ll see if he comes and turns into something or not. And a number one pick next year. That’s a really good trade. Then, then you turn around, he has Fleshinger, who does he have a high ankle sprain, Is that correct?
David Campbell: Yeah, I think that’s what I saw.
Terry Pluto: Well, until the high ankle sprain looks like, you know, he will make a Pro bowl at some point in his career, probably pretty soon. And you just say, well, there’s something to build on. I do like the trade for Tyson Campbell. I think that kid can play it that they traded Newsom for him, by the way. That’s why I thought it was kind of odd that Barry decided this. Even if it was decided, which I was told at the end of last year, not to do his midseason press conference. You could have talked about that stuff we just did there. One will take just a little pressure off your coach.
David Campbell: Yeah, well, why not? So there’s two schools of thought. One is so Andrew Berry did not speak during the bye week like he usually does. There’s kind of two schools of thought. One is, well, nobody else puts their. Their GM out there at the by watch the Browns. And the other school of thought is which. Which you wrote about over the weekend, which is like, well, the right thing to do is for him to be out there to support Kevin Stefanski.
Terry Pluto: Yeah. And sell your, sell your fans. Here’s a reason to watch us. We are going to be working with these kids. I mean, he has a few things to say that have gone right.
David Campbell: Absolutely.
Terry Pluto: I don’t know. I, you know, my background was baseball and then basketball and this whole football thing. One voice and only one guy could talk for the whole organization or whatever. I think it goes back to the days of Paul Brown and Vince Lombardi and all these guys were even Belichick where they, you know, they did everything themselves. But so I, to me this is not a major thing. It’s a minor point. But you hate when a team misses an opportunity. And I thought there was a missed opportunity by the Browns there.
David Campbell: And the message would have been number one, we know things aren’t going great. We’re working to make things better. And number two, we have a great rookie class. We made a really good trade. We have a two first round picks coming up and here’s why you should be excited for the future. Those are the two messages working in.
Terry Pluto: The right direction, even if it doesn’t feel like it at the moment and just highlight some of the things that they’ve done, you know. So they’ll ask you about Watson. Well, he’s working to come back but he’s not ready yet. They’ll ask you about the, the, the, the offense being broken. Well, you know, Kevin’s really working on that. We’re going to hopefully see we’ve got two quarterbacks we’re looking at. I mean, you could do this. I’ll tell you, 90% of the people listening to this could go out there and give these answers. And by the way, it’s not that Andrew was afraid of the media. Whatever. It’s not. I know that for a fact. They came up with this last summer and just because somebody else does it. Now the flip side, you know, sometimes they don’t like he says nothing but Chris Antonetti does one a month. He get tells his manager to stay, stay home. And when Tito was there, sometimes it was even more than Antonetti or Chernoff would do. They would just show up in the press room for the pre game press conference and say we would give, giving Tito a day off or given voter a day off. Here we are. You know. And they also were always available after they made a trade. I mean I went to look after they traded Flacco. I thought, well they must have put A quote in a press conference or press release, they didn’t usually put a square footage. It was just odd. This whole thing’s been really odd. And I don’t have no deeper insight than that. But I really think part of a front office, and this is more of a baseball, again, a baseball approach, is, you know, help your guy get out there and back him, and he’s your guy until he’s not. So even if you have some doubts about your coach in the middle of the season, you go out there, you back them. You know, nobody’s working hard than Kevin. We’ve seen Kevin, you know, turn things around, whatever, just say some stuff.
David Campbell: Well, and Stefanski’s been asked, getting asked a lot of questions about the roster, and she says, you’re going to have to. That’s something you’re going to have to ask Andrew, but you can’t.
Terry Pluto: So, yeah, that’s. And that’s. So that’s the thing. So it’s little stuff. Maybe it’s too much inside football or whatever. But I think the other difference is in baseball, you have one game after another after another. So you actually don’t dwell on things as long as you do in football. And that’s again, where you have a chance to set the agenda. I remember one time Mark Shapiro asked me to chat with Eric Wedge about his press conferences, because he asked me about them, and I said, Eric just sort of stands up there and he just kind of looks sort of baffled or, you know, I said. And he says, well, we’ve had some people talk to him, but would you do this? So I said, sure. And so I talked to Wedge and I said, you know, you go up and says, well, they’re going there. And the first guy asked a midiot a question. I said, it’s your press conference. It’s your press conference. You bring out what you want. You say, you know, I was really pleased with this guy, pitched pretty well. Or that. I said, it’s your press conference.
David Campbell: That’s a good point.
Terry Pluto: They ask a dumb question, say, well, look, I just want to get into that, go to the next one. I said, you’re.
David Campbell: What did he say when you said that to him?
Terry Pluto: Something to think about or whatever. He didn’t. He didn’t change a thing. Okay, fine. If you want to just bang your head against that wall and complain that it’s brick, well, then that’s. Wear a helmet. I mean, it’s just made no sense. But that. So that’s my point is you have a chance here because you Are talking to your fans. And more than ever now, with everything online where they see the whole press conference, you really can bypass the media in some ways and go directly to your fans.
David Campbell: Well, any major league teams that would like their managers to meet with Terry, just go to plutomediaconsulting.com There’s a couple.
Terry Pluto: People out there that have those kind of side gigs going.
David Campbell: That’s right.
Terry Pluto: I did it just because I thought Wedge was a decent guy. I saw him die, and this is like his first year or second year dying up there. And Shapiro the same thing. And he thought maybe just coming from somebody else because I’ve been around. But nah, it didn’t matter.
David Campbell: All right, let’s see. I’m just. Oh, so you said you got some emails from people about that? We gave Harold Fannin Jr. The short shrift on our podcast a couple weeks ago. We were ranking the rookies. So I. I think we got so into the discussion about who was number one and who was number two between. Yeah, Schlesinger and Judkins that maybe we did our overall list. We forgot Fanon, but I. I have him number three behind those two guys. I had Schlesinger first and Judkins one. I think you had Judkins one, Swissenger two. Yeah, and Fannin three. So anyway, what do you want to say about Harold Fannin Jr. Here?
Terry Pluto: I think he’s a guy that could be a super impact player. Get the ball in his hands. I don’t care if you have to hand it to him, throw it to him on a pitch. I want to see this guy run the ball too, along with catching it. I think he’s very gifted. And that would be, again, something that Barry could have talked about. You know, we’re just scratching the. You know, we’re just scratching the surface with this guy. But it’s true. They are. And I’m excited about him. You know, on top of that, you know, Kent McKinley, local kid. Whoever emailed me, they’re absolutely right. Yeah, I threw into double coverage on that one and totally forgot about it.
David Campbell: Oh, well, yeah, we got caught up in the one versus two debate. And I was guilty, too. But I got to tell you about Fan and like, he seems like he’s been in the league for five years to me. Yeah, when I watch him play, he’s always in the right place. Like you. You know, sometimes you see rookies, they’re not lining up on the line or out in the back like where they’re supposed to be. He’s in the Right place all the time. His blocking, I mean, remember when David Najoku came out and he’s like, well, he’s a great receiver and he’s a big target, but his blocking. And he’s developed into a great blocker like as his career has gone on. But like Fannin is already a good blocker. Yeah. This guy is just a great football player. And the only reason I didn’t rank him one or two, I just, I haven’t seen him make like the big impact play. He’s been. He’s been really good, like inconsistent and he’s doing a ton of things right. But I don’t see the big splash plays from him yet as much as I think the Browns will get him to that point. So that was why I had him number three.
Terry Pluto: We’re waiting for some receiver to jump into the water and make a splash because we’ve hardly seen any.
David Campbell: Yeah. Well, that brings us to our next email, Terry.
Terry Pluto: Yeah, exactly.
David Campbell: This is from Dennis Cassidy.
Terry Pluto: Had Fannin played at Ohio State or Alabama or whatever. Remember, didn’t he have 5,000 catches at bowling Green or something like that?
David Campbell: Yeah, it was one of the most, the most ever in the history of a tight end in college football. He might have been.
Terry Pluto: He would have been a first round pick.
David Campbell: Yes.
Terry Pluto: Okay, go ahead.
David Campbell: No, I was just going to say we got an email here from Dennis Cassidy, listener, and he’s. Dennis says when was the last time the Browns had a wide receiver who truly struck fear into opposing defenses?
Terry Pluto: Mari, I would agree.
David Campbell: I, I don’t know that it was fear with him though. I think they were, they were concerned about him. I. The last guy that I, I’m trying to think what Dennis is trying to get at with this question.
Terry Pluto: Josh Gordon.
David Campbell: Josh Gordon was the last that he was.
Terry Pluto: That he was available.
David Campbell: Yeah.
Terry Pluto: Yeah. But I would.
David Campbell: Guys like. Did you see Marvin Harrison Jr. Last night when he, he put that move on at the goal line and just, just left, left, left the entire defense in shambles with this move that he put on last night. That’s the kind of guy that I think Dennis is talking about, somebody who just. You are. You wake like you said, Terry, all the time. Like a defensive quarter can’t sleep because.
Terry Pluto: They’Re worried about the guy. And that was the thing Chris Palmer said to me way back when, when Chris taught me a lot about football, how to think as a he. He must have never went home because he’d always say, you can call me late at night. I’ll answer, you know, like late at Night was like after 10:30. So I would periodically call him and he was teaching me football back then. You talk about a guy set up to fail. I wrote all about that in False Start. But he would say, he would, he would right away say, all right, we’re playing the Rams this week. You’re the Rams defensive coordinator. Who bothers you? You know, you’re the. He goes, this is how you evaluate your team. You pretend you’re there. Well, Amari Cooper would keep, especially when he got going on Flacco. But even before that, Amari had really nice years here, didn’t he? A back to back thousand yard receiving games.
David Campbell: Oh, yeah, he was very good.
Terry Pluto: Yeah, he was a technical receiver, but just. Yeah, but then I was trying to go back in my mind other than maybe the year and a half that Gordon had, I can’t come up with any. Kevin Johnson was a nice receiver. And I’m sure maybe I’m forgetting somebody or other since 99, but not too many. I mean it’s not like when you go back and some, you know, Paul Warfield or some of these other receipts, Gary Collins, way back in the old days and that. So now here’s the question. Is the chicken or egg football question. Have they had so few poor receivers here because of the quarterback play or have they had so few quarter poor quarterbacks here because of the poor receiver play? What do you think, David Campbell?
David Campbell: I think they, I don’t think the receivers, they haven’t had receivers. I just don’t think they’ve had it. I, I mean the thing about Josh Gordon. And by the way, if you haven’t seen the Marvis Marvin Harrison, Daron Bland thing last night, you should check it out online. It’s pretty incredible. And he’s a good, he’s a good defensive back. But like the thing about Josh Gordon, there aren’t many athletes and I want to hear your take on this, Terry, but there’s only maybe five or ten athletes where you watch them and they literally like take your breath away when they play. And like Josh Gordon would catch the ball against the best defensive backs in the NFL and then would, it was like he had turbo boost and he would just pull away from these guys and you would just be like, did I just see what I just saw? Like Sasha Cohen, the figure skater, when she would jump up in the air, like I would get that same kind of feeling, like, man, what did I just see? And I don’t think the Browns have had, you know, I was watching the Ohio State game, the Other day, I think it was Carnell Tate’s case he.
Terry Pluto: Made where that guy is all over him.
David Campbell: But there was one play where Carnell Tate was running a. It was like a go route against a Penn State defensive back. And seven steps into it, you could hear Ryan Day on the sideline yell, got him. Right. Because he knew he. When he saw the Penn State defensive back turn his feet the wrong way, he knew it was over. And like, that’s what you’re talking about, Terry. And in terms of, you know, when you see that, like, all right, there’s no way he’s getting stopped on this play. And the Browns, they haven’t had. I don’t think they’ve had a guy like that since Josh Gordon.
Terry Pluto: Yeah, and the Gordon thing was bad. And the Gordon camp would always keep telling us, oh, you know, he’s just getting suspended because he’s tested for marijuana. I mean, look, you’re going to bench half the league if you were just tested for marijuana. Later on, Josh admitted in a. I think it was an interview with jgq, all the different drugs he tried and used, it’d be easier to name, seriously, name the ones that he didn’t. I mean, the man really had all kinds of problems. An interesting thing is in after he had the big year in 13, so that’s banner had a deal set up to trade him to the 49ers for a second round pick because he was afraid Gordon was going to be suspended at some point. And ownership and Jasinski, I guess, was 13, maybe wanted to keep Gordon. They did. And of course he played a little well for a while, but then it all caught up with them. And then after that, it was just a mess. And you go back and you look at that. I mean, it would have been nice to at least get something for Josh Gordon. And then remember, every year we’re here, he’s going to come, he’s suspended. You don’t win with guys like that.
David Campbell: Yeah. And then you go back, that’s the type of player that the Browns need.
Terry Pluto: Yes, they need an athlete like that and to find one. Ohio State keep spitting them out, by the way, their receivers, all these guys.
David Campbell: I mean, even during the Bengals game the other day, Flacco threw that ball down the left sideline to T. Higgins and it had no business being completed. But T. Higgins just found a way to catch that and turn it into like a 50 yard touchdown.
Terry Pluto: I mean, and if you’re Joe, you’re thinking, you know what, I’ll give him a chance he gives me a chance and the same thing he was with Amari. I’ll give him a chance because he’ll give me a chance. And we’ve probably beat that to death. It might be a good book for somebody, why the Browns don’t have a Quarterback.
David Campbell: Should get started on that, Terry.
Terry Pluto: Yeah, I should.
David Campbell: So, Terry, we’ve been, you’ve been writing a lot and talking about the, the Browns trade, where they have the two first round picks next year from Jacksonville. And I, I pulled up Todd McShay, the draft analyst has his big board out, and I just kind of grabbed the top 16. But there’s no quarterback listed on his top 16 until you get to the third spot. Ty Simpson from Alabama, who’s one of the Heisman front runners, is number three. The next quarterback is number 10 right now on Todd McShay’s big board, and that’s Dante Moore from Oregon. At number 11, he’s got Lenora Sellers from South Carolina. And then at number 14, he’s got Fernando Mendoza from Indiana. So it’s usually sometimes in a draft you’ll see two or three QBs at the top. And, you know, things change. I don’t think anybody, anybody has seen a lot of these recent years where somebody moves up into the number one spot that we didn’t really see coming like last year. But the Browns might be able to get a quarterback and a receiver without having to package those and move up from, from what we’re seeing on this.
Terry Pluto: I’d like to see them get a big time offensive tackle in the first round with one of those picks and then try for a receiver if need be. And you know, they never really gave the reclamation project idea a chance because that was Kenny Pickett, was the reclamation project, like Sam Darnold, like Baker Mayfield, like Jared Goff, you know, the first run guy who was tossed off to the side. They went with Flacco, then they traded Pickett. You know, Pickett got hamstring injury in training camp, but that’s not going to eliminate you from the whole season. It’s like they just cooled on that really quickly. And then they moved, of course, and they moved off of Flacco. So you got to do something. Those tackle positions, you can’t come back and say, well, we think the one Jones is going to stay healthy. Why? Right.
David Campbell: And there’s only one tackle that McShay’s got listed in his top 16, and that’s Spencer Finot from Utah, who I think one of our emailers mentioned a couple weeks ago.
Terry Pluto: Okay. And then the other. And you can’t say, well, we think Conko is going to be healthy. Why? Why do you think this? I mean, it’s not a knock on either player, but two years in a row, it’s even more for Conklin. They couldn’t stay healthy. So you’ve got to go and invest in it. And when you get one. I remember Phil Savage telling me this when he picked Joe Thomas and he also picked Ogden back, Jonathan Ogden back with Baltimore. He says, when you get one, you’ve got one for 10 years. He goes. And it’s just like, oh, I don’t have to think about that. He says, it’s just like, it’s not as important quite as getting quarterback, but it’s, you know, in the top three or four. And you generally. That guy. He’s that guy. You just. You. It’s like you just write him in ink and there he stands. And so that’s what they need because they don’t have anybody that excites me at all the tackle positions. I don’t know. Yes. Lance looked at the tackles. If I don’t. Does he like anybody? No. For us right now in Cleveland that.
David Campbell: We’Re seeing, I don’t think so. Yeah. All the injuries and everything, I think, yeah. The metrics are what they are for this offensive line, and that’s, again, it’s everything.
Terry Pluto: Right.
David Campbell: And it starts up front. So Todd McShee’s got Reuben Bain Jr. The edge from Miami is his number one pick right now or number one on his big board, anyway. And there are some receivers. Carnell Tate, who we’re just talking about from Ohio State, is in the mix here, so anyway, Browns will have some options, certainly.
Terry Pluto: Smith has to stay another year in school, doesn’t he, for Ohio State.
David Campbell: Jeremiah Smith, another year. Yeah. This is only his second year, so. All right. Anything else on the Browns? Terry covered a lot of ground.
Terry Pluto: Well, the kicker’s okay.
David Campbell: He’s doing his job, so he’s okay. We will take a break here, and when we come back, we are going to talk some Cavaliers. And I wanted to spend some time on the podcast for anybody who didn’t see your column over the weekend about you, why you think there’s a core four player who should be coming off the bench for the Cavs and how that could work. So we’ll get into that and more when we return. Terry’s Talk. Okay, we’re back on Terry’s Talk, and I do want to mention Terry’s newsletter that comes out every Wednesday. I know Terry, you’ve been working on a bunch of stuff for tomorrow’s newsletter. You can sign up by going to cleveland.com Pluto there’s a blue bar at the top and you can subscribe there. I think you get two weeks free. But there’s always some great contract stuff. Insight that Terry’s hearing about all the different teams. Check it out. So, all right, Terry, The Cavs are 4 and 3 right now. And I mean, I think everybody kind of thought this was what the beginning of the season might look like, right? A little disjointed. Different lineups with the injuries, you know, with Garland and Strus being out and Lonzo Ball’s restrictions, not playing back to backs and everything. I guess in general, what have you seen from the Cavs so far? And then we can talk about this Jared Allen idea that you have.
Terry Pluto: Well before the season began, Atkinson said he thought it could look clunky. And he’s right, it’s looked clunky. But overall I’m encouraged and just, I think they didn’t need another 150 start. And what you need to figure out is if you can be more physical. I really liked how they played the last couple of games. I thought they were, they’re scrambling more on defense. They did a better job on the boards after that game against the Celtics. That was just so discouraging. And I would really like to see them in a column that I wrote once, maybe not right now, but at some point bring Jared Allen off the bench and kind of team him up with Porter and perhaps Ball. Depending upon whether you have Tyson in the lineup or not, have a lineup that comes in that scrambles more, makes more of an impact defensively on the other team because there’s a. The people that say, well, Mobley and Allen can’t play together so you got to trade Allen. It’s kind of, I would say, a typical knee jerk talk radio response. Now if Allen were on a max contract or whatever. Yes, that’s correct. Jared Allen is the fifth highest paid player on team. Even DeAndre Honey is making more money than he is. He is the 88th highest paid player in the NBA. Remember, the NBA players are the highest paid players in the world. Their average salary is creeping up to $12 million. Allen makes 20 million. So you could bring him off the bench. And this is a guy that shoots 70% from the field. And one of the people that I was talking to this, I ran this idea past is Mike Fratello. And, and he mentioned to me how you would Bring him off the bench, and then he is facing lesser big men. And then he would be more of a chance. Throw him the ball, you know, let it. Let him score. Especially now that they’re asking Moby to do more and more. Yeah, you could play them together. You could even start them and then just kind of switch it around. And then also, you know, there’s precedent for this. Lenny Wilkins did this in the middle of the second season with Hot Rod Williams because the Cavs made the trade for Larry Nance. And he tried to play a big front line with Larry Nance, Hot Rod and Brad Dougherty. He just didn’t like how it looked. He went to Hot Rod, said, I’m going to bring you off the bench. When you come in, you’ll get some shots, you know, play the defense. And a lot of times, especially when they wanted to be good defensively with some size at the end of a game, he had the three big men in there and like Josh, you know, Hot Rod was very good defensively, very unselfish, just a good guy. And you also heard sometimes Hot Rod should be better than he is. He was still really good. And let’s look at this differently. Then you could turn around, especially in a league with all the three pointers and that you could play. Tyson right now is growing as a defender, and his offense is coming around. You’ll have Strust coming back, and I just think it would give you. Give you more options as a coach. And if you pitch this to Alan the right way, he’s under contract for a couple more years. It’s not like he’s playing for a contract. And you look at Jarrett, you know, he likes what’s best for the team, but he’s a bit of a passive personality. So you got to say, you’re going to be important doing this. But when he’s out there with Mobley and with Donovan, and then you throw Garland into the mix when he comes out there, it’s like, well, where, yeah, I’m the core four, but, you know, I’m the fifth wheel. And that’s a. A feeling. I think that you could help. And that was a thing too, where back in. At that point, you know that the Cavs had Price in the backcourt and Doherty, you want to get him the ball. He wanted to get Nance the ball. So there were. They had traded. I think at that point they had traded Ron Harper, but they, you know, they had a lot of talent, and it was just a matter of how to. How to move it. Around to make it work. I loved it. Fans would get excited. When Hot Rod came into the game, it was, it was one of those things and he thrived off it. I mean, he made most of his career doing that. You know, putting up like 13 points and nine or 10 rebounds a game.
David Campbell: Coming off the bench, well, that’s the equation, right? You have to have the idea and the decision to do it. But the guy who’s doing it has to embrace that role.
Terry Pluto: Otherwise it has to be the right guy.
David Campbell: We’ve seen that plenty of times too, where a guy is like, well, I should be a starter. I don’t like this. And it just. The body language isn’t there. Usually the numbers aren’t there. But like. But the thing is, and this is where I. Why, I really think it’s an interesting connection you’ve made here, Terry. Both of these guys seem perfect for what that is, which is you’re going to be the star of the second unit and a focal point of it. And you know, Jared, Jared Allen’s done everything and most of these guys in the Cavs have done. They’ve been all stars, they’ve made the playoffs, they’ve had a 15 game winning streak and all that. Like, the only thing left is to win a championship. And if this is the kind of thing that would help get the Cavs there, I think Jared Allen would jump at something like this.
Terry Pluto: I mean, he loves it here. His agent approached Kobe about getting an extension, which they worked out not this summer, but the previous summer. He wants to stay here. And I think that’s a key part of it too. I mean, the Cavs are a fascinating team to watch because in the last, since Donovan Mitchell’s come to the team, they have the third best regular season record in the NBA. Only Boston, Oklahoma City have won more games than the Cavs. And this other stat, that was my step, the cast put this out. It’s pretty interesting. Of guys who play 200 or more games for the Cavaliers, Donovan just passed 200. I was surprised in this, Donovan Mitchell has the highest regular season winning percentage, just nearly 70%. Then Mo Williams at 67%, Mobley at 65%, LeBron 64 and JR Smith at 63. Now, LeBron had a deal with the total rebuild. You go back to there where he was 18 years old and came into the league. That’s the reason for that being a little lower. But I mean, everybody will say, well, it doesn’t matter except the playoffs. Yes, it does matter. I’m not saying it’s everything. But it’s something. You want to have a good regular season team and you want to have a guy like Mitchell who has the right leadership qualities, a guy who did sign an extension to stay here. You go back and look at that trade. This is something I’m going to write about for Wednesday. And you look at that trade with Utah. You know, the Browns talk about their big swing with DeSean and how that went awry. Okay, maybe this isn’t a home run because they haven’t won a title with Mitchell. It’s a double off the wall, I’ll tell you that. You know, Lori market in and I forgot who else is in that trade but a bunch of Sextons. Yeah, Colin Sexton, first round picks. There’s still a couple more coming. But you’ve got a guy here and he did sign the extension and he just. He’s there. Jose Ramirez. He just is. You have this guy that’s about your best players, about all the right stuff. And I mean, Kenny Atkinson talks about how, you know, sometimes he stops Donovan on the way out and they kind of cook up a play together. That’s what you want. In the same way he plays. He plays so hard. Donovan plays so hard. And that’s what sometimes I like to tell him, quit diving on the floor in the middle of January. We don’t need you. Just like, I mean, it’s hard to tell those guys like, Jose, I mean, you’re down seven to two in a seventh inning and you go flying into third base and you know, head first, you’re like, you’re putting your nose on the base, dirt’s flying over the place and the guy’s going to step on you and you’re playing like that anyway. It doesn’t mean don’t hustle. We just need you healthy. But those guys are wired and when your best player is that way and the message it sends. So it’s a. I know it’s a bit frustrating because the Cavs haven’t gone farther in the playoffs, but look, it’s the total opposite of what we’re talking about. The Browns, we got two teams that are good every year and they’re worthy of attention to fans and they don’t have players doing stupid stuff off the field. And they’re well run, period.
David Campbell: Watchable from start to finish.
Terry Pluto: Start to finish. Yeah.
David Campbell: All right. I think that’s it on the Cavs. And you’ve always called Donovan Mitchell the second best calf that you’ve.
Terry Pluto: Yeah.
David Campbell: Oh, I think it’s not the best of all time.
Terry Pluto: Yeah, I know Kyrie is terrific as an individual player, but I would not want Kyrie on this team or whatever because there’s always going to be something behind the curtain that pops up that kind of gets you going sideways. And so that’s, that’s my feeling. And it was from the. About his third year on when I saw which way he was going and where, you know, Mitchell has come here now. We’ll see if he. A couple years now. Will he sign another extension? I don’t know. But I know this. There’s never been one doubt for one second that Mitchell was upset about something and not putting it out on the floor.
David Campbell: All right, well, the Cavs are going to be off today on Tuesday. Then Wednesday night they’re hosting the Sixers at 7 o’. Clock. Then they are Friday at Washington. Saturday they have the Bulls down at Rocket Arena. And then next Monday and Wednesday, Terry, they’re doing one of those back to backs in Miami. Two road games Monday and Wednesday down in Miami. Oh, I also want to mention before we started taping today, the Cavs signed Chris Livingston, Akron and graduate of Bookdale High School. I don’t know if he’s a graduate because I think he left to go to prep school, but he attended.
Terry Pluto: Yeah, I think he did at the end. That was a mistake that he made also. I think he played one year at Kentucky and came out. He really needed to stay another year or two in school. Hopefully he could do this in the G League and stay. You know that sometimes these guys go to the G League and it doesn’t work out for them. Monty Bates, remember that? I don’t know where he is now. He’s not with the Cavs anymore. You’re still better off staying in college and now such you nil a couple of extra years and come out more like, as I would say, like a man physically and emotionally.
David Campbell: Yeah, this is a finished product.
Terry Pluto: This is a tough league. And a lot of these kids who played well in college for a year, they could even go down the G League. And you run these guys, guys who’ve played in Russia and China and France and they’ve been on and off NBA roster, they’re killers. By that, I don’t mean that, but I mean they’re all over the floor. They have no respect for you. If anything, they’re jealous of you because you were a pick and you got a bonus and they’re right in your face. And that’s Max Cruz came out of that environment. You know, he was undrafted out of DePaul. That’s, that’s what he did. And you look at, look at Sam Merrill, another one like that. I think he might have been drafted, but he had to go down the G league and then he reinvented himself. So this would be a good chance for Livingston to figure out what does it take for me to really get to the NBA.
David Campbell: Yeah, I mean the Browns always talk about when, when it doesn’t matter where somebody’s drafted. Once you’re drafted, everybody starts the same. But like in the NBA, none of the players care where you were drafted.
Terry Pluto: No.
David Campbell: Like they’re coming for your job.
Terry Pluto: Right. And they don’t care. And even the first round picks are the only ones are sort of exalted. Second round picks are like, you could tell the way. Oh yeah. And then there’s, and there’s four second round picks included in this trade. That tells you what teams think of the second round picks. You know, they just kind of toss them in kind of like, oh, you know, I, I have my real pair of shoes here. You could have my sandals and my, my, my galoshes.
David Campbell: Haven’t ever heard the word galoshes in many years, Terry. That’s a good.
Terry Pluto: I was trying to think of one that would kind of bring up something or. Yeah, like that was my grandparents. You wear your galoshes so slow lock thing.
David Campbell: They have wellies in Ireland. They have people wellies, Wellington boots. When you go out into the barn to clean the barn and you wear your wellies. You could throw the wellies into the trade too.
Terry Pluto: Yeah.
David Campbell: All right. Yeah. Let’s talk some baseball, Terry. And that was some World Series. What did you think of that?
Terry Pluto: What? I usually don’t watch it, I have to admit, unless the teams are in it because a lot of times the games are late at night or whatever, but partially because I know Mark Shapiro, Russ Atkins from, from there. And then you had Bieber and you had Clement and you had Straw, you know, the, the Cleveland contingent. I got there and then especially when the Blue Jays came out and kind of hammered, you know, look like they weren’t going to back down, the Dodgers at all. Then I started wanting to pull for them and so I, I loved it. I felt so bad for, you know, Bieber came into that game and I told Roberta there, I said, I don’t feel good about this at all because, you know, he was on short rest arm thing. And one thing about Bieber, even when he’s pretty good, he’ll throw a home run and that’s you know, that’s what happened. So. But overall, we all knew Ernie Clement was going to the hall of Fame.
David Campbell: We actually have an email from a listener about Ernie Clement. This is from Tom Beyler. Tom’s from Kansas. He says, hey guys, I, along with many Cleveland fans, enjoyed watching Ernie Clement hit all the way through the playoffs. To me, Ernie is the quintessential baseball story. Rejected by several teams before finding a home in Toronto and working hard to make himself essential on and an everyday utility player, solid defense and steady hitter. How many Ernie’s gave up too soon? How many Ernie’s could not find a team to give them that one more shot? I pondered this question for years. Part of what makes baseball such a great game. Two of baseball’s many legends, Willie Mays and Yogi Berra, got off to awful starts in their MLB careers. But Leo Derocher with Willie Mays and Casey Stengel with Yogi Berra, sat these youngsters down and said, you’re my center fielder and you’re my catcher. How many Willies and yogis did not get that support and never got the chance? Just part of what. Of what has kept me a baseball fan for many decades. Not to mention the exclusive, excruciatingly close plays like several that could have won it for the Jays. You just never know. Thank you. And again, that’s Tom Beiler from Lewisburg, Kansas. Thanks, Tom.
Terry Pluto: Highlight this in my newsletter. It’s going out tomorrow, but I’ll kind of break down the stuff on Clement because I had to go back into my memory now. I remember the first time I heard about Clement was in spring training. I forgot exactly what year. But Tito liked him. He had come up from Double A and was playing. But I think he saw the same thing that. I’m sorry, who sent the good email? Who was that Tom Beyler that Tom mentioned? Yeah, it’s kind of this gritty guy fighting his way up but never thought that he would bet. 411. 411. That is in 18 playoff games and I think 370 in the world Series. But if you go back and look at Clement, he was the fourth round pick in 2017 out of Virginia. So. So Prospect. He played in parts of the 2021 and 22 season with Cleveland. He had 294 major league batting plate appearances for Cleveland. Where he hit? He hit. David. David. He hit. What do you think?
David Campbell: 238.
Terry Pluto: You wishes. 214. 584 ops. I mean it’s not like he had 29. He had 294 point appearances. He looked like he could be utility infielder and that would be it. Near the end of the 22 season, the Guardians were going to send him to the minors. I think he was out of options or something. And he was claimed by the Oakland A’s. At that point, clement was batting exactly 200 and 145 at bats for Cleveland. And that year when he also spent time in AAA, he batted.238. I mean, you go like, where is this going? Claimed by Oakland on September 18th. He went 1 for 18 the rest of the year with Oakland. There’s more. Then Ernie Clement goes to spring training with the A’s in 23. They cut him on March 12. Toronto picks him up, signs into a minor league contract. And I’m sure what they’re Cleveland, can I go? Why not? You know what they probably thought, organization guy, good guy, send a Triple A. You know, we could count on him, maybe bring him up if we need a utility infielder. He hit.380 in Buffalo and then he comes up to, oh, excuse me, he had.348 at Buffalo. Then he kind of gets called up by Toronto and he hits.380 in his last 29 games in 23. And then he’s been with the Jays the last two years overall, and that time he’s at.277 with the 711 OPS. Okay. And he’s become an outstanding defensive third baseman. I mean, I just want anyone realistically to say that they saw this coming. You couldn’t, you couldn’t. It’s the cool thing is what time is saying, yeah, yeah, it did. And it’s a tribute to Ernie because you get rejected, kicked around. And sometimes there was another guy Cleveland had and it was Geo Sella and he had nearly 600 at bats with Cleveland over a couple years where he hit around 220 or something like that. And he ended up bouncing around, remember? Then he ends up with the Yankees and ends up hitting. So it does have these guys sometimes just figure it out. But I cannot fathom this Clement thing. And then he gets in the biggest stage and he’s a star. He would have been probably the MVP of the World Series that they won.
David Campbell: It’s crazy, isn’t it?
Terry Pluto: Yeah, it just is. I love the story. I just love it. Just wish it happened in Cleveland. I mean, for example, in San Diego, they’re still going, how does Corey Kluber end up winning two Cy Young Awards? We couldn’t get them out of Double A. I Mean, it’s just stuff like that.
David Campbell: And this is why you see, you know, you always see guys hanging out on them in the minors until they’re 26, 27, 28. You never out nine, 10 guys have that kind of story happen to them. But the tenth guy does, and then it’s pretty remarkable when it does.
Terry Pluto: And sometimes you get a couple years in the big leagues, even if you’re going up and down. It was a guy years ago named Jeff Manta, who. This is back when Cleveland had a farm team of Buffalo and he would go up and down with, with the Tribe and them and I, I did a story with him and we actually kind of did the economics of it between doing that. They used to say he could be mayor of Buffalo, you know, how long you’ve been down there. But he was making about 80 to 110 grand, depending upon which year it was, which is a lot of money back like in the 90s or whenever that was by doing this. Because he said if you can get to that and you. And he goes, especially if you get even that 15 day period up there or whatever, you know, it just doubles your salary in that period there. And he goes, I love to play. I’m going to play until they tell me I can’t play. Now if you’re stuck in Double A and you’re not making any money, that’s a different situation. But probably part of. Clement was like, all right, if I got a bounce between AAA and hopefully get a major league thing here and there, I’m just going to hang in there and see. But it’s terrific to see that, you know, that’s how he was. I was really happy. I love Bieber as a person. I think he’s a terrific guy. And to see how well he bounced back and pitched. He’s going to get big money as a free agent. I mean, maybe he’ll get it from Toronto, but you know how they are with starting pitchers. And so that’s. And you know, Miles Strauss become a bit part player for them.
David Campbell: Yeah, and Mark Shapiro too, I think you’ve been kind of, I think. Are you gonna write about him in your newsletter tomorrow too? In terms of a little bit connection.
Terry Pluto: Just how we talked about the Toronto market, this is interesting because when you look at the top five. All right, here’s your top five papers.
David Campbell: Hold on, let me just. So people know, Marc Pyro used to be the president of the Indians before he left to go to Toronto and took the same role there, Right?
Terry Pluto: Yeah.
David Campbell: And sorry Anyway, just for people who might not have been familiar with.
Terry Pluto: Right. That’s who he was. Yeah, he was here. He goes way back to. I mean, he. I want to say early 90s. He was going to work in the front office. Okay, top five payrolls. Let’s just go in this book truck. Dodgers, 350, Mets 342. These are millions, by the way. Yankees 300, Phillies 290, Blue Jays, 255. Number five, by the way. Bottom six, Guardians, 100. Raise 88. Pirates 84, A 79, White Sox, 78 and Marlin, 67. So there’s your. Your. That’s. I mean, right there tells you why baseball needs a salary cap. When your bottom six are 100 or below and your top five are 255 or above, you got problems. Okay, but. So when I was talking to Shapiro a few years ago and I said, well, it looks like you got some money to spend there or whatever. And he said, yeah. He goes, we’re a big market team. And he says something that just didn’t register because we are Canada’s team. There’s no other major league baseball team in Canada. He says, so that on top of it, they are owned by Rogers Communications, the Blue Jays, who also own a thing called sportsnet, and they are the ones who broadcast the Blue Jay games all over Canada. So this is exactly the kind of thing you want in terms of creating all kinds of money, because a lot of these teams like Boston or New York or la, they’re cable deals and the streaming deals, those are things that bring in the. The huge money. And so, I mean, the phenomenal thing, There are only 41 million people in Canada this year. They averaged 906,000. Watch their games. It’s quite a few. And then, you know, well over a million at 60 games or over a million people were watching it. And remember, that’s on there. They’re not talking about. We’re not talking regular season games on that sportsnet, not the World Series or anything.
David Campbell: Well, they own their own media company, too.
Terry Pluto: They own their own media company and that. So, in fact, part of their problem was they had trouble getting people to take their money to play in Canada. They often outbid teams for players, but the guys didn’t want to play in Canada or the exchange rate or whatever it was, but they are able to play on a different. That’s why when they were willing to trade for Jimenez, who has like 100 million left on his contract or whatever, they’re like, fine. Well, wildly overpay for A guy who could really play second base and shortstop and hope he starts to hit some again. You know, they picked up straw with a contract that, fine, we’ll. We’ll overpay for a center fielder who is really good defensively. Maybe he’ll hit a little bit because that’s. They were able to. To do that. They convinced the big thing. They were able to convince Guerrero to sign some massive contract to stay. So that’s why I wanted to mention this, because I kind of looked at it myself, that I never thought about a countrywide team owned by a media company that has the TV rights for the whole country for this and what that means economically.
David Campbell: It’s like their home market is 41 million people. It’s funny, I was sick last week, Terry, but toward the end of the week, I was watching the Blackhawks played in Edmonton, I think on Friday night. I was watching it over maybe on Saturday they had the World Series game, Game seven on the Jumbotron at the Oilers Arena. During the hockey game.
Terry Pluto: During the game.
David Campbell: Yeah. And. And some guy on the Oilers would be bringing the puck up the ice, like. And nothing was happening in the hockey game. And you hear this huge roar from the crowd, and the players were looking around like, what happened? And it’s like, oh, the Blue Jays hit a home run or whatever. And so just to kind of reinforce that point, like, their home market is countrywide and it’s 41 million people, and they have a, you know, they have a Canadian flag on. On the. On the bird on their hats. Right. Like, and.
Terry Pluto: And right. They have that. And they. Look at the Raptors have the same advantage, but of course, they have a salary cap in their league. Baseball does not. But it’s. It’s a cool thing. I’ve always thought when I’ve gone up there to watch baseball or basketball, that Toronto would be a great place to play. Oh, yeah. The fans are rabid. They, you know, they’re not as angry as we are here. You know, Canada’s a little more mellow, and it’s. You are. Whether you’re with the Raptors because then to Vancouver lost their team in the NBA or Toronto because Montreal still doesn’t have a team. You are it across. They’re watching you in Saskatchewan. I mean, maybe they’re watching you in the. The Yukon territories, I don’t know. But it’s. It’s something else. Yeah.
David Campbell: All right, I did what. It’s funny how. How the mind works sometimes, but when. When I was watching game six and game seven and Then I saw the Steelers over the weekend. Mike Tomlin had this great quote that he says, there’s a fine line in the NFL between drinking wine and stomping grapes. And I was watching the World Series and it’s like, man, in game six and game seven, like the little stuff. Mike Tomlin’s right. Like, there was such a fine line between while he’s drinking champagne and not drinking champagne. But yeah, you know, in game six, they get doubled off second base to end the game. And then in game seven, they could have won it. You know, Isaiah, Isaiah Kiner Falafel doesn’t get a big enough lead from third base because they told him, like, don’t take too big of a secondary lead because we don’t want to get doubled off. Like we can win. So he didn’t, he didn’t beat the throw home and the little stuff like.
Terry Pluto: That hits that ball, remember there, and the two Dodger outfitters run into each other.
David Campbell: Yep.
Terry Pluto: And they catch it. Yeah, yeah, the, the Ernie Magic. Finally the pixie does finally roll off of him. But it was. I mean, he, he rocketed that ball, too. And Yamamoto, I mean, pitches back to back games. And that guy. I mean this, by the way. All right, to get into a point, Yamamoto’s contract, 12 years, 329 million. It’s like 12 years, 365 million. Ohtani’s got this weird contract for 700 million. But just that they’re playing. They’re playing not just a different ball game or a different ballpark, they’re playing a different universe.
David Campbell: Deferred money and huge. We’re getting up near a billion dollars on some of this. Like it’s. Yeah, you look at like teams like the Marlins.
Terry Pluto: Yeah, it’s.
David Campbell: It’s like they’re in different. It’s like a AAA team or a double A team.
Terry Pluto: Right. And that’s why you need a salary cap and you need a minimum floor so that the Marlins and guardians have to spend at least 100 million. You know, all those kind of things. This stuff can be fixed if they want to do it. But I don’t. I, I know the players will fight them on that, but to me, seeing the Dodgers went back to back World Series now, hopefully we’ll add some fuel to some of these other owners to push Manfred to try to get something changed when the contract’s up at the end of 26.
David Campbell: All right, real quick, Terry, you wanted to talk about the AL manager of the year situation, and I know that. Do you have a vote for that.
Terry Pluto: No, I don’t, I don’t. They don’t like me anymore. But I remember one year, I can’t recall exactly, but it’s when the Twins are very good and Rod Garden hire was the manager and they won the Central Division and I voted for Garden hires for manager of the year. I put Joe Madden second. You must vote before the end of the regular season. Well, that was the year Tampa Bay went all the way to the World Series. And it turned out myself, there might have been one other person or not didn’t vote for Madden. Of course, I looked like an idiot, but it was the, you know, there. Yeah. If I got a chance to pick at the end of the World Series, guess what? I’m picking for Joe Madden. I mean, it’s not real hard. Well, right now, I think if you vote at the end of the regular season, voter, you know, Stephen Vogt should probably get the manager of the yearbook. But if you were to vote now in the American League, I probably would vote for Schneider because I think that what he did with the Jays is really impressive. I mean, he went through the Yankees, he went through Seattle, he took the Dodgers to seven.
David Campbell: So you would, you would have changed your vote if you had one. Interesting. See, I would have kept mine the same for the reasons you were just talking about a few minutes ago, Terry. Like for the Guardians to win the division with that payroll and to lose two of their important pitchers during the season. Like, I think I would have kept my vote the same just for that reason. For the. But you’re right, I mean, that was an incredible run the Jays had and they. For all rights, they should have won the thing.
Terry Pluto: Yeah.
David Campbell: So I, I totally get the logic. I just.
Terry Pluto: Oh, yeah, it’s going back to the.
David Campbell: What did you do with what you had argument.
Terry Pluto: Yeah.
David Campbell: Which is one.
Terry Pluto: I would argue he did a lot with what he had too.
David Campbell: That’s true.
Terry Pluto: Because. Because he, he really had to. But the. It’s an interesting question of like, when do you, when do you vote? But all the, all those votes, like, Kenny Atkinson was coach of the year in the NBA last year. If he did it after the playoffs, you probably. I would have probably gone with either Indiana or Oklahoma City, whoever you want. But I think they do that because then it becomes too easy and they want, they want the regular season still to count for something. Yeah. Anyway, the good thing is we’re not sitting there going, the Guardians have a stupid manager and what are they going to do? And boy, they mess up after losing teeth. I wouldn’t have any of that think of anything vote is certainly picked up that legacy that Tito set up here where you don’t sit there going, I mean you get second guess this move or that move but you don’t go, man, this guy is clueless and that’s an important part. And I also think that, you know, just like with Tito where you had a feeling this guy was very stable and could handle the ups and downs, votes come across the same way. I mean I still wish they could have knocked off the Tigers just because it was so much the playoffs are so much fun to watch. I mean it’s just great entertainment. By the way, you know, the Tigers already are wondering what they’re supposed to do, you know, with Skubal because he’s I think a couple years from free agency and you know Scott Boroughs, the Darth Vader of agents has Scubal. In fact the Scott Borrows super bowl was when Scuba pitch against Gavin Williams because he’s got both of those guys and you know plotting whatever it is going to be. He’s not going to give anybody a hometown deal or anything of that sort. No.
David Campbell: All right, well the hot stove season will be picking up the winter meetings for MLB our next month in December. And yeah, things will start to happen here now that the World Series is behind us. So. All right, Terry, to wrap up here, we do have an email from Chris in Denver and Chris says, hey Terry, I’m excited to read. Why can’t this team just find a quarterback? And I have no doubt it’ll be the perfect mix of humorous and depressing content. Do you have any plans for another Tribe Guardians book? There are many great stories and memories from the Frank Kona vote era dating back to 2013 that would be fun to relive. Probably more uplifting to write as well. Love the pod. Thanks, Chris. That’s Chris from Denver. What do you think, Terry, you just finished this. Are you ready to embark on another book yet?
Terry Pluto: Yeah, a lot of times too, because I get ideas for books and I really don’t talk about them until I know they’re out because things can go wrong. Or once while I start a project and go, I just don’t like the way this thing’s going. I don’t think it’s there. But it’s not a bad idea. Whether it’s that or something like a vintage tribe book, like a da vintage browns and vintage cast. Those are sort of fun. Especially as you get older. You could put more just kind of into it thinking of it. So it’s it’s a thought. But I’ve really learned I don’t talk about books even in the middle of writing about because they, they don’t always come to fruition. And I’m just grateful that you know, I have Roberta’s my first, my partner, my first edit on all these things that I’ve done. And I have a guy named Larry Pantages, former sports editor of the Beacon Journal. He’s my researcher. So I and I have a great publisher. And David Gray also does some editing which really helps me because when you have a full time job and then you’re writing a book, you need help. And the older I get, truthfully the more help I need. So that’s a, that’s a blessing there. And so we’ll see. At least we don’t have to I won’t be writing a book. Why can’t the Guardians slash Tribe find a quarterback? Why can’t they at least when to have two winning seasons in a row which the Browns haven’t had since the late 80s. That to me is the most remarkable stat. We’re not talking two playoffs, two winning seasons in a row. It ended when Belichick came in. I’m not blaming him but so you go from the Belichick years on to now that is 35 years. Granted there’s four or whatever the team was in Baltimore but and it’s set up in a league that gives every team an advantage. It’s not like what the Guardians are dealing with or it’s a level playing field. Yeah, it’s like it’s almost like I’m not saying they designed to do it but it’s you almost have to set out to do it.
David Campbell: Okay, well don’t forget you can check out terry all of Terry’s books at www.terrypluto.com including the new one. Why can’t this team just find a quarterback? And don’t Forget tonight on November 4th the book signing and Menor at Barnes and Noble and Thursday the 6th at Chagrin Falls Township hall at 6:30 on that’s a Thursday night this week so. All right. We good Terry?
Terry Pluto: That is it.
David Campbell: All right. We will see you next week. Don’t forget to check out Terry’s newsletter cleveland.com Pluto the blue bar at the top. You can sign up. We will see you next week on Terry’s Talk.
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