CLEVELAND, Ohio — This week’s edition of the Terry’s Talkin’ podcast is live, with cleveland.com columnist Terry Pluto and host David Campbell. In this episode, they talk about the Browns and what Sunday’s loss to the Jets could mean in the long term.
Also, they discuss the Cavs, and what might have to change if Darius Garland is out again with his toe injury; and they remember Lenny Wilkens, who passed away Sunday. They also get into the Guardians and the fallout from Sunday’s indictment filed against Emmanuel Clase and Luis Ortiz.
Highlights:
Browns fan sentiment has shifted from despair to anger, with calls for firings and major changes.
Terry Pluto argues the 1980s Browns era was defined by consistent success, not just heartbreaking losses like “The Drive.”
The franchise’s identity since 1999 has been a perpetual and unsuccessful search for a quarterback.
Why a new stadium will not improve the Browns’ on-field performance due to the NFL’s salary cap structure.
A listener’s analogy, endorsed by Pluto, compares a bad offensive line to a bad baseball bullpen that collapses the entire team.
The hosts highlight the rare importance of a great offensive line coach, questioning if former coach Bill Callahan would return to the current instability.
The loss to the Jets: the “beginning of the end” for head coach Kevin Stefanski?
Why the defeat was statistically unprecedented: Since 1950, teams holding opponents under 175 yards with zero turnovers were 225-0 before the Browns’ loss.
The Browns’ special teams have become a glaring liability, allowing an NFL-worst six return touchdowns under coach Bubba Ventrone.
A failed fourth-down play against the Jets epitomized the team’s dysfunction in both play-calling and execution.
Analysis revealed that quarterback play and other factors, not just the O-line, were responsible for nearly half of the sacks allowed.
Kevin Stefanski’s offense, which once excelled with backup quarterbacks, has severely regressed this season.
Terry Pluto fondly remembered the late Lenny Wilkens as a Hall of Fame coach, a great teacher of basketball, and a man of dignity.
A new injury to Darius Garland puts pressure on Donovan Mitchell and the current Cavaliers to find alternative offensive schemes.
Guardians pitchers Emmanuel Clase and Luis Ortiz have been federally charged in a game-fixing scheme involving manipulating on-field events.
The indictment identifies Clase as the instigator who recruited Ortiz for a surprisingly small financial payout.
The scandal may cost Clase his $6 million salary for 2025 and two team options worth an additional $20 million.
A key unanswered question is whether Clase attempted to recruit other players who may have reported the scheme.
A listener has a scenario about a stolen base and the new challenge system in MLB for balls and strikes. What Terry and David think it could mean.
Here’s the podcast for this week:
If you have a question or a topic you’d like to see included on the podcast, email it to sports@cleveland.com, and put “Terry’s Talkin’” in the subject line.
You can find previous podcasts below.
Also, a transcript of the podcast is below. As it is computer-generated, it may contain many spelling and grammar errors.
David Campbell: Hey, how’s it going? Welcome to this week’s edition of the Terry’s Tuck In Podcast. I’m your host, David Campbell. Terry Pluto is here. Terry, I wanted to ask you right off the bat, what, if there was one word to summarize what you’ve been hearing from Browns fans since the loss to the Jets Sunday. What’s like, what’s the mood there right now?
Terry Pluto: Oh, they want to fight. They want to fire everybody.
David Campbell: Really?
Terry Pluto: I mean, yeah, that basically it. They want Shador to play and they want to fire everybody. That’s kind of it. Even those who don’t think Shigur is any good, they want them to play because they. They think they basically seen enough of Gabriel and figure, well, why not give that a try?
David Campbell: And anger. You’re. You’re hearing some anger and, and, and changes. I’ve been seeing a lot of, like, despair. Yeah, you’ve been seeing that. Like, it’s hopeless. Like, I think Browns fans are starting to lose hope that this will ever turn around. Are you seeing any of that?
Terry Pluto: They are hopeless. Someone hopeless. What do you want to do? It turns to anger and you want to fire somebody.
David Campbell: That’s. Yeah, yeah. It’s kind of stages of Brown’s fans.
Terry Pluto: Yeah, yeah. Of grief or whatever.
David Campbell: And.
Terry Pluto: Yeah. So, I mean, you got denial, acceptance, all that kind of stuff. But the main thing that it’s almost like they want to blow everything up and already get to next year. There’s no hope for your point. Despair about this season. And I can’t deny any of those feelings myself. I mean, that jets game, that’s as bad a game as we’ve seen in quite a while from, from this franchise.
David Campbell: It was bad on a lot of levels.
Terry Pluto: Yeah.
David Campbell: Do you want to start with some emails here from people, kind of get us going on the Browns. Okay. This first one is from Dave in Texas and he says, hey, guys, greetings from outside Fort Worth. And I wanted to give a shout out to my dad, Glenn Berger in Strongsville for his comments a week or two ago on the podcast Campbell versus Ward covering. So a question for you. At what age do you go from a positive Browns fan to a more cynical one? I say that because my 23 year old twin boys are starting to become a little more cynical after each passing year. Case in point, with the jets game on Sunday, still in the game, losing 27, 23rd and forever, and a defensive holding penalty for an automatic first down, same drive, fourth and four. And before the play happened, I said to myself that we are going to Jump offside and sure enough, we jump offside. I guess that is the cynical fan in me. Heck, after going through the Drive and the Fumble, how can you not be cynical? Should I just give this time for my boys?
Terry Pluto: Stop, stop, stop.
David Campbell: What?
Terry Pluto: I don’t like to hear that. Because what we would give right now for those teams that were involved in the Drive and the Fumble.
David Campbell: Oh, for sure.
Terry Pluto: Playoffs every year. Right.
David Campbell: But I think what he’s saying is like, it’s hard to not be cynical given that history. Right. But for sure, I think any Brown fan.
Terry Pluto: I disagree. Given the history, it’s not that it’s kind of a narrative that we fall back to without really thinking about the context. I mean, that was the last time they had back to back winning seasons. They had four in a row. And those were teams with good guys that you wanted to see play. Yeah, maybe there’s some heartbreak at the end, but they were watchable. They were worth your time. What we have seen since 99, with a couple of exceptions here and there, is really not watchable. It was, you look at it, it was not a particularly great use of our time. And then, as you said, this Giants, excuse me, the jets game, I mean, what a disaster. And I don’t think any time, say from between 1980 and like, I don’t know, 1991, in that 10 year period, was there like total despair. It’s utterly hopeless. You know, that kind of stuff where this is really rough. I mean, this is getting really. You start to say, what, I’ll make the Browns fans quit on the team. It seems like they never do, but I get what he meant. But I think we have to really. In fact, that’s when I wrote the book Vintage Browns because I always thought it was unfair. This is. You could tell, I feel passionately about this for those guys to be defined by those plays, by the Drive and the Fumble, driving the Fumble. I mean, are you kidding? I mean, they’re playing Denver. There’s these huge games, people are writing songs about Bernie. Yeah. You know, all you could do here is write a funeral dirge about this song, you know, that would be it.
David Campbell: And we want to invite, we want to invite our Terry’s Talking listeners. If you do have any dirges that you’d like to belong, send us to.
Terry Pluto: Sportslevel A quick Taps. I mean, the football version of Taps. Just please. And you know, I just. And unfortunately for me in that point, you know, I was doing the the Tribe in the early 80s for the Point d’ or and then the Cavaliers for the Beacon Journal. So I was not actually around those teams because I was on another beat. And then, by the way, when I did write vintage Browns and I got to interview a bunch of those guys. What a bunch of good guys. That was the other thing that struck me. Good teams, good guys. Okay. They didn’t win a Super bowl, fine. I mean, you would like to have seen it, but what we would give now for that, for sure. Yeah. All right, I’m done.
David Campbell: All right. So, Dave, that’s. It was a good rant, Terry. Anyway, Dave, he says after going through those. How can you not be cynical? Should I just give this. I Should I just give it time for my boys to be more cynical about our beloved Browns. Sincerely suffering in Texas. Thank good. Ohio has the Buckeyes. And that’s from Dave.
Terry Pluto: So, yeah, I mean, the kids, they’ve seen nothing. You’ve seen, you’ve seen. Like I said, you saw good football.
David Campbell: Yeah.
Terry Pluto: You really did this.
David Campbell: That ties into our next email from Frank the Tank. And Frank writes, Terry, how does a person born and raised a Clevelander identify with this Browns team and organization since they came back? What is their identity? I can only think of chaos. It used to be a blue collar, gritty team and coaching staff. Even Art Modell was a tough person that you wouldn’t mess with. You went down to the stadium and you felt it, you felt part of it since then. I wouldn’t know how to describe this team, but I don’t see much in progress of playing football and representing Cleveland. Moving to Brook park into a strip mall of a football stadium with controlled experiences and most likely playing on artificial turf is just another step of losing their identity as a football team. And my Second question, my 18 year old daughter asked, will a new stadium help them win? I couldn’t think of anything, but I’m hopeful you can provide reasons on how playing in a different stadium will help them win. So the answer to that is no. Right? Terry, the stadium doesn’t matter in terms of helping the team win. This isn’t baseball where you’re, you know, you’re. The revenues are what they are and the salary cap is what it is. And. Right. All the teams are making money hand over fist and the payroll is what it’s going to be. Right. The stadium shouldn’t help the team on the field.
Terry Pluto: No, no. I mean, maybe you could try to have a faster team because you’re playing indoors or whatever, but. Right. No, no, I don’t think so. And really, how many snow games do we really get per year at the stadium? Not that many.
David Campbell: One or two.
Terry Pluto: Yeah, it’s not like that big a deal. The big, the bigger issue is the identity. The only identity for this team. That’s why I wrote the book, you know. All right, cheap plug, fine, but true. Why can’t this team find a quarterback? That’s been the identity of the team. No quarterback. Looking for a quarterback. What about this quarterback? What about that? Quarterback, quarterback, quarterback, quarterback. Or let’s make a dumb trade like for Odell Beckham Jr. And I wrote, didn’t like it to begin with because we got to help the quarterback. So what that Odell had missed the previous 16 out of 32 games with significant leg injuries and he was a guy who relied on his speed, his legs, what could possibly go wrong? Oh, by the way, he didn’t want to leave New York. And when he was last seen there, he was fighting with quarterback Eli Manning. So there was no way that this could get off the tracks in Cleveland.
David Campbell: Hashtag sarcasm.
Terry Pluto: Yeah.
David Campbell: All right, here’s our next one from Kevin H. And Kevin says, hey, Terry, I remember an anecdote you shared long ago. Was it from Sparky Anderson that essentially said, if you want a bad team, have a bad bullpen? Listening to the last pod where you talked about how bad the Browns are and specifically the chicken egg situation with the quarterback and the wide receivers made me think of this lesson and I believe it bears repeating as it relates to the offensive line in football. To me, a bad offensive line is the surest way to have a bad team. The team can’t run the ball, the quarterback doesn’t have time to throw, the wide receivers don’t have time to get open on routes downfield, the opposing defense can stack the box, blitzes work too often, the quarterback gets hurt, etc. Etc. Then because the offense can’t stay on the field or score points, the defense gets overworked, worn down and discouraged, the whole team unravels pretty much immediately, just like a blown lead late in a baseball game. I don’t think the lack of investment in the offensive line is getting enough attention. The front office gambled that they could squeeze one more year out of these veterans and hoped Jones would develop. It’s not working well. I’d love to see better, more athletic wide receivers. What I’d really rather see first for the long term growth and stability of the team, is an incredibly stout offensive line. I find bad bullpens at bad offensive lines make for unwatchable teams. P.S. have a look at Indy as A case study retread QB having success with a good running back and one of the top rock top ranked offensive lines according to Pro Football Focus. Not a coincidence that the top 10 offensive lines are a who’s who playoff bound teams. Thanks again Terry and Dave for your good work. And again that’s from Kevin H. So was it Sparky Anderson? I thought it was. Was it Tito who told you that.
Terry Pluto: Or was it Sparky Tito? Sparky Anderson used to say it too because he actually was there. But it doesn’t matter. One of the great baseball guys and the analogy is very good at least in my mind. And you know when you look at the money they spent on the on the line they spent money Bonio is highly paid. Postics highly paid but and Teller’s highly paid. The problem I’ve had and Conklin was highly paid. The problem is the other tackle and the problem is Conklin couldn’t stay healthy. The interior of the line still isn’t too bad from what at least those ratings are but they get killed on the tackle positions. But I like how he really delineated how an offensive line leads to the defense getting worked over to the quarterbacks getting hurt to all those things come into play. And that was more your area anyway David so why don’t you take it from, from there?
David Campbell: Well, no, I mean I don’t know what to add to that, Terry. I mean the Browns went into the season thinking that dejuan Jones and Jack Conklin were going to be there all season and be healthy and play and right away they lost Dejan Jones and Jack Conklin’s been in lately but he’s been kind of in and out and then you’re in trouble. I mean it’s, it’s just you look at the good and this was what we just heard in the last email from Kev. The good teams have good tackles and you watch Lane Johnson went out last night for the Eagles. They still won like because they have depth on the offensive line. They can move guys around and I mean he’s, he’s going to be in the hall of Fame. But like if you don’t have good offensive tackles, I think he’s right. You’d be hard pressed to find a.
Terry Pluto: Good team that’s not a good one. Further to flop it back into baseball. I can’t remember exactly who it was was an NFL executive told me this early on when I first started covering. This would be 93 when I switched from being a columnist to I’m covering all the sports and doing heavy football. And we were talking about that and he said your offensive line coach is like your pitching coach because there’s, there’s not a lot of them out there, but there’s some that are, you know, difference makers. And we saw that here with, with Callahan. He was a difference maker and the same way Carl Willis is. And so you, I think that’s another thing too, because he said they’re, they’re, they’re unique in their skill sets and their relationships, all that kind of stuff. And you know, the Browns have been trying these different offensive line coaches. I don’t know enough to say how bad the offensive line coach or whatever is. By the way, I’ve been getting emails on where the Browns go get Bill Callahan. David Campbell, if you’re Bill Callahan and you just got fired with your son in Tennessee and you’re being paid to stay home, how do you feel about coming to Cleveland right now?
David Campbell: Right now you’re not doing that. Maybe at the end of the season, you never know. I mean, I think Kevin Stefanski and Bill Callahan have a really good relationship professionally and he probably would be fine coming back after the season. But again, they have an offensive line coach. So those are changes that will be looked at in the offseason, but not now. You’re right.
Terry Pluto: Yeah. But even, I’ll tell you, even next year, if I were Callahan and say Kevin survives with go 5 and 12, just to throw that in there, that sounds optimistic at the moment. Do I really want to walk into what could be a one and done because there’ll be other teams wanting Bill Callahan.
David Campbell: Yeah, for sure. Be interesting thing to see how it goes in the off season. But. So let’s go back to the jets game, Terry.
Terry Pluto: Okay.
David Campbell: Dan lobby our colleague. He does his 10 Tuesday things. We talk about it sometimes. One of his, his headline today was something about how Sunday was the kind of loss that changes plans in terms of the Browns grand plan for rebuilding this thing. And I guess I wanted to ask you, did that loss feel like the kind of game that could be the beginning of the end for Kevin Stefanski and Cleveland?
Terry Pluto: Absolutely.
David Campbell: Okay. Now I know you wrote about this after the game, but talk about why you feel that way.
Terry Pluto: Well, among other things, a couple of stats. All right. Since 1950, when a team holds the opposition under 175 yards and does not commit a turnover, the record of that team is 225 and 0 until Sunday. That even defies any statistical whatever.
David Campbell: It was a loss of epic proportions. I think you could say with that stat.
Terry Pluto: Since Bubba Ventrone has become special teams coach, the Browns have allowed three TDs on punt returns, three on kickoff returns. In that span, no other team is allowed more than three total TDs on any type of returns. Right there, you got all kinds of stuff going on that are problematical. You know, I mean, they’re 5 and 21 since opening day. You know, they got to 20 points finally, but I believe only five of those 26 games or whatever, they’ve been 20 or more points. It’s bad. And go ahead with your thoughts.
David Campbell: Well, I’m. This is the kind of loss that can get you fired. I agree with that. And you, you just look at the way they lost the, the jumping offside on a crucial play. Those are the things that you, you watch the. You watched the game last. The game last night. That stuff doesn’t happen to the. In those games where you have playoff contenders playing the holding penalty on Devin bush, like on third and 16.
Terry Pluto: What are you doing?
David Campbell: It’s like you the only. You cannot commit pass interference and you cannot hold. Those are the two things the defense can’t do. You know, they’re not throwing it. It’s like everybody watching the game knows the things except the Browns defenders who are on the field. So. And again, Terry, that does go back to coaching. So I think, you know, I think people are going to look back at Sunday’s game if this doesn’t work out for Kevin Stefanski and his staff. I think they’re going to look back at Sunday’s game as when I was.
Terry Pluto: Told by, you know, some people very close to the situation. The Browns considered this a quote, no excuse game. In other words, they’re coming off a bye week. The jets are trading two of their top guys. They have plenty times to kind of put some new wrinkles on the offense. It’s the jets, go beat them. That’s it.
David Campbell: Yeah.
Terry Pluto: And. And you can’t. What did they have 64 yards passing or something and they won the game. The Jets. Yeah. I’m sorry, I just. And Kevin, to me, it’s just. You listen to them. I mean, I have heard the coaches go down that road before here. I mean, that is the man. I don’t know what’s going on.
David Campbell: Which road? What do you mean which. Which road?
Terry Pluto: You see, road of Will I ever win another game? I can’t believe we played that bad. These are things they’re not saying, but they’re feeling. At least that’s how I read it. What do you think, well, I go.
David Campbell: Back to this fourth and one that they was. Actually, it was fourth and one and a half with about 10 minutes left. And I know the reporters were asking Stefan yesterday about this in his Monday wrap up zoom call, but it. That play to me encapsulated everything that’s kind of wrong right now. So. So I think what they were trying to do, the Browns were trying to catch the jets with like run heavy personnel.
Terry Pluto: Yeah.
David Campbell: So they went fast. But it’s fourth down and one and. And to me is what do they do?
Terry Pluto: What do they do?
David Campbell: So let’s rerun this. So one of the things as an offense on fourth and one that you have is a weapon is like, is it going to be a run or is it going to be a pass? Right. The defense doesn’t know. And the Browns come out in personnel and they’ve got Najoku and Judy on the left side and. And Judkins is in the slot.
Terry Pluto: That’s right. That’s right.
David Campbell: Best running back.
Terry Pluto: I remember there was something.
David Campbell: Slot.
Terry Pluto: I mean, there was something stupid about it. I forgot what it was. Yeah, go ahead. Yeah.
David Campbell: And Jerry. It was an empty backfield.
Terry Pluto: Yes, yes.
David Campbell: With Jerry, Judy, like in a little bit of a handoffable situation, but. But split out wider to where you’re like, he’s not getting the ball on a handoff. We don’t have to worry about it. And then they had Tillman and Fan and out to the right. So you look at that formation right off and you’re like, they’re passing.
Terry Pluto: Yeah.
David Campbell: It’s fourth and one and a half. We don’t have to worry about the, about the run anymore because there’s nobody. It’s. It’s an empty backfield formation, for lack of a better phrase.
Terry Pluto: And you know, you know what play works there? This is the point. They scored a touchdown there. You have a. You fake to Judkins. You roll your quarterback out a little bit. Your tight end looks like he’s going to block. He slips out and he’s open.
David Campbell: Yes. Which they ran earlier in the game. They ran for a touchdown.
Terry Pluto: Right.
David Campbell: I would have run that play.
Terry Pluto: Yeah. Run it again anyway.
David Campbell: I just. That formation in itself was just like, all right, take all the mystery of the run out of the game right away and just let them know you’re passing.
Terry Pluto: But then they stay up all night during the bye week to come up with that.
David Campbell: Yeah. I mean, again, they were trying to do this fast because they caught it. They wanted to catch him and run heavy personnel. So what was the thing that Dylan Gabriel was supposed to be really good at coming out of college? Right. Rolling out like you just talked about and hitting people on the run. He did it at Oregon. So the Browns have him drop back in a shotgun formation and not roll out. The blocking was not actually that bad, but he looked left, the guys to the left were covered. And when you look on the right, Judkins and Tillman were both open and had turned around and would have had the first down if he had looked right. He looked.
Terry Pluto: I don’t have the updated stats on this with this game in. Heading into this game, the Browns had been sacked 20 times. And I checked this because I saw it was an ESPN thing. I believe said that only 11 of the 20 sacks were directly due to offensive line breakdowns.
David Campbell: Quarterback caused sacks as opposed to the block is what you’re getting at, right?
Terry Pluto: Yes.
David Campbell: Okay. Or.
Terry Pluto: Like a tight end blows an assignment, that kind of thing. But the five, the core five or whatever, there 11 were on them. And I did ask a high person with the Browns that that was true and he said, yes, that comes close to matching our stats. So I don’t know if that is coaching. Is there something wrong with how they’re setting up or communication? I don’t know well enough, but I thought that was an interesting stat. Now, I did not get the update after the jets game because it was six more stat sacks.
David Campbell: Well, that’s what happened on that. On this play, Terry. It’s exactly. The blocking was not that bad. And Gabriel could have. I think he could have rolled out to the right and hit one of those two guys, but instead he stepped up in the pocket and walked right into a sack. The defensive lineman coming to the block, he actually held it pretty good.
Terry Pluto: One of the dumbest things they do with him is they run that run pass option where, you know, he. He looks like he gets it to the run, like he could fake it to the running back and run right. The defense says, fine, run it. We don’t care if the quarterback runs it. That’s fooling nobody.
David Campbell: Yeah, I just. Again, going back to this one play, like everything we, the Browns have told fans.
Terry Pluto: Yeah.
David Campbell: About, hey, we drafted Judkins because we want to be AFC north team with a physical running game. And here it is, fourth and one and a half. You don’t use him. Here’s Dylan Gabriel. We really love the way he recognizes defenses and we love his mobility. And there’s no recognition of the defense and there’s no mobility. And it’s like you drafted this guy, and it’s the biggest play of the game, and he didn’t see the open guys on the right and ran into a sack. And it’s. It’s just. I can totally get why Browns fans have this hopeless feeling because nothing they’re being told is coming to fruition. And we keep hearing, well, all we can do is get back to work and fix it. We’re going to get back to work and fix it. We can be better and we will be better, and nothing’s getting better. I mean, one of the way it looks, right?
Terry Pluto: The most frustrating thing, and you brought it up first, David, early on our podcast, is that it used to be Kevin could point to the Joe woods defense as a problem or something. Maybe, quote, other than the offense. Like when Jacoby Brissette was here, the 11 games he started, whatever it was, they were ranked 10th in scoring when they pulled him and brought in Desean 10th, because I believe he was 4 and 7. And had they just had, for example, this defense, they probably been seven and four. You know, Jacoby was okay, you know, because Kevin until of late had a history of Jacoby Brissette or Case Keenum in Minnesota or these guys. Even Baker, he got that really first really good year out of Baker having success in his offense. And to see what has happened starting last year, but especially this season, to me, is really disheartening, and I think it’s got to shake him a little bit.
David Campbell: So if you’re Jimmy and Dee Haslam and you’re watching this and any owner of any sports team that’s struggling, you kind of are asking yourself, will we be better when we have better players? Right? Like, the talent might not always be there, but does this thing look like it can work if we upgrade the talent? Do you feel like things can be better if the Browns have better players, or is the coaching the bigger issue?
Terry Pluto: Yeah, better players have to, quote, unquote, be better. But does your coaching take you back to the level of even in 23, where you found a way to win 11 games with. From Watson to DTR to PJ, whatever his name was. And. And then finally Flacco. I mean, that was great coaching year. And what happened to that guy? And they used dinner was like, in 24, I’m like, all right, so here they bring in Dorsey. They’re doing all this stuff to try to revive Dorsey. I mean, to revive Watson, and they get all out of whack. And this year is supposed to be a return to Kevin’s calling plays and the play action and running the ball and that. Now, I haven’t looked at the stats going as of now, but still, heading into the jets game, the Browns were still averaging the most pass attempts of anybody in the NFL. Preposterous.
David Campbell: After you drafted your AFC North, Dylan Gabriel.
Terry Pluto: I mean, that was like when you’re. When you’re playing Jameis Winston who’s interception prone and you’re throwing the most passes in the NFL and a shocking thing happens, he’s throwing interceptions.
David Campbell: So if you’re Kevin Stefanski, I mean, he doesn’t need to make a case to keep his job now, but put yourself in his shoes and pretend you’re. You’re interviewing after the season. You’re.
Terry Pluto: What.
David Campbell: What do you think is the case he could make to keep his job right now? Or is there one?
Terry Pluto: I don’t know.
David Campbell: Because I started to put you on the spot.
Terry Pluto: No, I mean because. Because what. What you would try to sell last year is the fresh start beyond Deshaun, you probably come in with, we need to get a new special teams coach. I’m going to try this form of offense. I don’t know. You know, Kevin also could be at the point. This is year six and he’s been through a lot here and the Watson thing and that goes on. They’re still asking, well, when, when is he going to be what, on the eligible to practice list or whatever.
David Campbell: This window, the 21 day practice sitting there.
Terry Pluto: If you want. You know him, you probably want to yell, I don’t know. But if it were me, it’s like he just had two Achilles operations and before that he came back from a major shoulder surgery. This guy’s not thrown the ball well since the Baltimore game in 23, before the shoulder surgery. So why do you think there should be any rush to get him on the field other than his name is Deshaun Watson and maybe try to squeeze something out of the contract. But there’s been nothing at the eye test from, say, 24 at all to tell you that he would be any better in 25. So that’s what I. That would be my answer now. But of course that maybe that would get you fired. But I don’t. He just looks sometimes just. Just battered down, worn down and that’s how I see him.
David Campbell: All right, well, sorry to end it on such a discouraging note for Browns fans here, but anything else in the Browns, Terry?
Terry Pluto: I guess my wife says the kicker’s still doing well.
David Campbell: Yes, yes. Except for tackling guys and returns, which is don’t do it.
Terry Pluto: But you know how I am. Don’t, don’t do it. You’re gonna get hurt. Kickers and quarterbacks, tacking, tackling is verboten.
David Campbell: All right. Hey, Terry, I wanted to mention before we move off the Browns, you, you mentioned your new book, why can’t this Team Just Find a quarterback and you have a signing. We’re taping this at late on Tuesday afternoon, the 11th of November, Thursday night you’re down in Fair Lawn, right, I believe.
Terry Pluto: Yeah, Barnes and Noble and fair lawn at 6:30. The other way to get the book. Sometimes Amazon has it, sometimes they don’t. But also terrypeluto book.com all one word, terryplutobook.com and I have signed over 600 of them. They’re moving them, but they’re selling them through that way in the mail. And then it comes right to your door.
David Campbell: All right. And other appearances coming up. Looks like November 18th in Hudson at the Hudson Library. November 20th at the Barnes and Noble in Youngstown. That’s also a Thursday night at 6:30. Yeah, they’re also like the Fairlon one, December 2nd in North Canton at the Barnes and Noble. That’s a Tuesday night at 6:30. And then December 4th in Cleveland at Visible Voice Books. That’s a Thursday night at seven.
Terry Pluto: So yeah, we’re adding a couple others I know in December, but those little ones coming up. So.
David Campbell: All right, let’s take a break. And we come back, I want to talk about your just wonderful column on Lenny Wilkins, who passed away over the weekend. We’ll get into that some more Cavs and talk a little Guardians when we return on Terry’s Talk. All right. We’re back on Terry’s Talking. Terry, we had some sad news over the weekend. Lenny Wilkins, former Cavs coach, three time Basketball hall of Fame inductee, died at the age of 88, winning as coach in Cavs franchise history. I think his record with the Cavs was 316 and 258. Coached the team from 86 to 93. And if you haven’t if you’re listening to this and you haven’t checked out Terry’s column, check it out, cleveland.com Pluto and Terry’s got some just great remembrances in there. Just not about Lenny, just as a coach, but also as a person. I know you had spent a lot of quality time with Lenny over the years, Terry. Why don’t you talk about what he does?
Terry Pluto: I covered him all seven years that he was here for the Akron Beacon Journal. Was the beat guy There for the Cavs, you know, from the. One of the things that. It’s almost like the drive the. All that. Well, he, you know, Lenny has the shot and this. Five times he. In the seven years he took to the cast to the playoffs, four times they were knocked out by Michael Jordan. And what are you going to say? Okay, it was really hard to beat Michael Jordan. That’s a. That’s a big club who could not knock off Michael Jordan. But that team came out of the rubble of the Ted Stepien era. Now George, Carl, one of those years had taken the castle will be free to the playoffs. But they had. The Cavs actually made the playoffs that year with a losing record with. With Carl. And so Lenny, what I think just brought respectability and everything here with Wayne Embry, the gm. And they drafted Mark Price, they drafted Brad Dougherty. They turned around and traded for Larry Nance. Harry Weltman had drafted Hot Rod Williams. They drafted Ron Harper. They did. They just put a lot of nice things together. That was a team that in some ways reminds me a little bit of this team. But the Cavs have. Now they didn’t have a player as great as Donovan Mitchell, but you know, they’re good guys, played the right way. You felt that they were organized, ready to go. So that’s on the basketball standpoint. On the personal one, I really. It was a different time. You could watch the whole NBA practice. It was kind of a smaller world. Lenny loved to. He loved to teach the game and he did that with the writers too. I remember one time we were talking about out of bounds place and Bertraf was covering for the point dealer and I was at the Beacon Journal and Lenny was talking about, you know, I have. I think he had had a play where Craig Eagle had brought in the ball and got it back and scored a basket or something yet. And I said, well, that was interesting. You don’t see that a whole lot about guys who throw the inbounds pass getting it back. And he takes us, this is after practice on the court and he has Bert kind of about 20ft away from the sideline where Bloody’s bringing the ball in. And he says, now, Terry, guard me. So Bert comes running over and Lenny like looks like he’s gonna fire it to Burt. And he says, stop. And he goes, look, you’re looking at Burt. All I gotta do is if I throw it to Burt, then this time he throws it. He goes. I cut the other way. You have no idea where I am. He says, they still even in the NBA forget about where the guy goes after he inbounds the ball. In fact, the famous Michael Jordan shot with three seconds to go came because the Cavs scored too quickly on the play before. With six seconds left to go. They ran almost a play that he documented to Burton. I really. Yeah. Elo brings the ball in, he’s being guarded by Jordan or somebody. I forgot who it was. Bert Grave is actually Larry Nance. Plays the Bert Graef thing. He comes from the far end of the court, comes running in, he fires it to Nance. He cuts to the basket, Nance cuts it, hits him right back. And Elo scores a layup. He actually probably got fouled on it. They didn’t call it so, but that put them up by a point. But the problem was there were still three seconds left. Elo always said we scored too fast. And then he had other plays for Elo to take three point shots off of the same thing. So that was the kind of thing he would talk about. He and my wife Roberta and I would go out to eat and sometimes he’d be drawing up some stuff on napkins when he’d be explaining some things or it was just. It was a lot of fun. Then he also talked about growing up in Brooklyn. You know, his. His father died when he was 5. His father was African American. His mom was Irish Catholic. His father was a chauffeur and had ulcer. Ulcer condition and passed away and left a mom with five kids. His mom worked in a candy factory and she was very close to, I believe it’s Holy Rosary Parish in Brooklyn, New York. And a father, Tom Mannion became like the man of that family, very close to Lenny. Lenny went out for the freshman team in high school, made it, but hardly played. And so then Lenny was already working a lot to help support the family. Delivering groceries and stuff after school he didn’t even apply to as a senior. And then he’s applied in the summer pickup and Father Mannion convinced him to go out for the team. He made the team and Father Manion helped him. He had a friend at Providence College. It wasn’t like now at aau and they knew all the great players were. And he helped him get a scholarship to Providence. And then when he became a first round pick from there, just stuff like that. And he was a man of dignity and, you know, a quiet guy and just. I learned so much in the same way I learned so much basketball, baseball from Earl Weaver. Lenny Wilkins served that purpose for me in the NBA. I was spoiled. I Mean, two guys that are Earl Weaver and Lenny in the hall of Fame. The spacing that his teams always had, you know, was. Was remarkable. You listen to Doherty doing the games and Daugherty’s talking about, you know, get the ball that won’t block and kind of some movement to the. To the shoot, a jump hook. They would spend 20 to 30 minutes in practice on different ways of getting the ball to Dougherty and sometimes Hot Rod Williams in the low post, the right angles on how to throw it into them, all this stuff. And of course, now they don’t know what to do with the low post guy. They just. They want everybody to shoot the ball from, you know. Yeah. And it’s. It’s like even Jared Allen. I love Jared. He shoots 70% from the field. He gets the ball five feet from the basket. He throws it to some guy in the corner. Will you just shoot it?
David Campbell: Yeah. And after reading your commentary, I kind of had this vision in my head of Lenny walking around. It was like he was holding basketball in his hands like a dove. And he just wanted to share it with everybody and show them, you know what I mean? He was a competitive guy and he wanted to win, but he just. He loved. He loved basketball and he wanted to share the sport with whoever was interested in it.
Terry Pluto: Yeah.
David Campbell: He wasn’t a quiet voice about him over these years. Yeah.
Terry Pluto: Like when you. And he was a contemporary, Hubie Brown, by the way, they get along great. Hubie Brown, but Hubie Brown was like the patent of basketball. There you are. Now, you line up over here, and you’re over here, you know. And in fact, when Hubie was. Would do the games on tv, you know, there’d be a timeout, and all of a sudden you go, now you’re the Celtics. You got 12 seconds to get the ball in. You got Bird over here, Parrish over here. Meanwhile, you’re the Cav. Now, you know, he’s going to go to Bird and just like that, where Lenny would be more like, you just need to do this. He would just give you the one thing, and it would be kind of a quiet voice. In fact, we used to sit by the huddles there at the end of the press table, show what a different era it was. I’m watching him with Burt Grae because he was on the beat together, and we’re looking at. Watching him draw plays and that. How about half the time they go out of the hunt? Last thing was say, now don’t try to do too much Good advice for life by the way sometimes. Don’t try to do too much.
David Campbell: All right. We do have an email here from Brian Kuykendall, longtime listener about Lenny. He says, I loved that Seattle team that won that title with Lenny Wilkins. I was 12 at the time and my parents let me stay up late to watch the championship series. They were not on much but as a guard myself, for some reason I was drawn to downtown Freddie Brown, Gus Williams and Dennis Johnson. Then later my favorite players in college was. My favorite player in college was Mark Price. So obviously I love that Cavs team. I was compelled to write you as that article to me that you wrote, Terry, is the sweet spot of why I’ve enjoyed your writing over the years. Do you have a way of telling the story of the people beyond the sport that adds insight and warmth? Appreciate you Terry and David. Thanks Brian. That’s lovely email. And yeah it’s people don’t remember the NBA was barely on like yeah try to watch games.
Terry Pluto: But yeah, when he went to the finals back to back years of Seattle won one and lost one money always liked the kind of sixth man guy and he said he got the idea from these Celtics would do that with Bill Sherman. They would bring Bill guy named Bill Sherman off who became a Hall of Fame coach. And that’s why when Lenny was here and it’s the thing I’ve used for Hot Rod Williams, he turned hot Rod into his sixth man. He always said he always liked having a guy come off the bench who really should probably start and I could kind of insert him into the game at just the right time. And that’s why I mentioned recently a column about doing that with with Jared Allen and it comes from one because of that. And I remember him telling me about Freddie Brown but he said oh, I got that from Bill Sherman and watched the Celtics and that was the thing he freely gave out credit. He was not one to say oh, you know you would say oh Red ar Block would do this and that kind of stuff.
David Campbell: Well, Lenny Wilkins is is third on the all time NBA wins list behind Gregg Popovich and Don Nelson. That’s some pretty elite company there. And it’s really nice that Lenny was also chosen as part of the 75th anniversary NBA team which was here at All Star Weekend a couple of years ago. So really just an incredible legacy and our condolences to Lenny Wilkins’s family. So. All right Terry, I guess you want to talk about the current Cavs here. It was a big night last night for the Cavs down in Miami. A crazy ending and Kind of. The bigger story was Darius Garland appears to have hurt his toe. I think he was seeing doctors today, like this afternoon, I bet on Tuesday, but we haven’t heard anything. I know Chris Fedor, our colleague, will be all over that, but what did you think about last night’s game and kind of the aftermath?
Terry Pluto: Well, of course, we’ll see what happens with the toe thing, but when a guy has surgery for the toe and missed. I forgot what he missed three or four months, and he was moving well when he came back. So the surgery looked like it had worked. But if it’s. He jammed it again. You could tell something was going on. That’s a. That’s a huge problem. But they’re gonna have to figure out, David, how to work without him. And I thought they were struggling some, because when Garland was out a couple years ago, this is JB’s last year, they went 17 and 8 without Garland. But Donovan had Max Struse with him in the backcourt. There was all kinds of stats about how effective they were. Well, Strus is out for quite a while still with a broken foot. And I thought early on this year, Donovan was having to carry such a huge load himself because he’s back there with Merrill. But Merrill doesn’t handle the ball that well. So I wonder. I’d like to see them when, at least when they bring ball into the game, put the ball in his hands more. I mean, ball is just an elite passer, and sometimes he comes in, he’s kind of over on the wing. I don’t want him over on the wing. I want him. I want him on the ball. Let him handle that. Now, give Donovan a break. And that’s. That’s something to get. They’ll have to look at this because maybe Darius is only going to be out a week or something. I doubt he’s going to come back and play right away. Not the way that looks.
David Campbell: Yeah. I mean, if there’s any good news out of the Darius Garland thing from last night, it’s that it’s November. Right. So.
Terry Pluto: Correct.
David Campbell: If they did have to go back in and do some more work on that foot, you’d given a similar timeline, he might be able to come back in March or April, which would certainly help their playoff chances. But it’s better now than. If it’s going to happen. It’s probably better now than in March or whatever, because there’s some time here, but. So are we going to see more Craig Porter Jr. Also Terry, or what do you.
Terry Pluto: Yeah, I hope so.
David Campbell: Yeah.
Terry Pluto: Now, one of the things Kenny is doing, he doesn’t. He won’t say this, but he doesn’t consider Porter to be a classic point guard. More like he’s a good guard who’s athletic in that, but Porter could handle the ball and set some stuff up. So I think that that is a. Another option. And they’ve got a lot of talent, but you also have to make sure you just don’t exhaust Donovan. I don’t like the fact that he’s averaging 31 points a game just because he could do it. I don’t think it’s a good idea.
David Campbell: And it’s been hard points, too. Yeah, right. A lot of, lot of jumping and.
Terry Pluto: Such a physical player. I mean, he just, he goes in there and it looks like he’s indestructible. But we know that’s not, that’s not the case. And so I want to see them. I was. Mike Fratello called me after Lenny Wilkins passed away. We’re telling Lenny Wilkins stories and talked for quite a while. And I said, mike, will they ever throw the ball to lower post in the NBA again? And I know it’s two, one guy 78 and the other one 70, but it’s. You can still see now and then they throw the ball down low to Mobley, he scores. You throw the ball down low to Jarrett, he scores. And what is wrong with that? Just because it’s not a three point shot. And the thing that it allows you to do, when you go down low, you sometimes draw fouls. And the other thing is when you go down low and score, even if you miss, you don’t give up that long rebound that the opposing team grabs off the board and turns into a fast break. Now, I’m not talking about going back to 1961 basketball, but you just. Because analytics loves three points on everything. I mean, there was a game where Jared Allen took three, two, three point shots. I mean, there ought to be a law, I guess, that there is like, no way. No, Jerry, you don’t do that. It looks bad. They were like wind blowing, you know, so just go into the rim and shoot your 70%. And so that was. And I do think this actually is a time where Kenny needs to think about that some more and put a little bit of more of that into his offense. And if the analytics people don’t like it, say, look, we’ve got to figure this out. We don’t have Garland, we don’t. We gotta, we gotta do some stuff here.
David Campbell: All right, well, speaking of big Men. Terry, there was a lot of people wondering at the end of last night’s overtime why the cat there was. Oh, for those who might have missed it, there were 0.4 seconds left. And I’m. I’m so old now. I remember when the Trent Tucker rule game happened.
Terry Pluto: Yeah. Explain what that is.
David Campbell: Yeah. So Trent Tucker of the. The Knicks were playing the Bulls in New York, and the timekeeper at Madison Square Garden had a notoriously slow trigger finger. And the Bulls were up, I think, by a point. Trent Tucker of the Knicks, I think There was like 0.1 or 0.2 seconds left, and Trent Tucker got the inbounds pass, turned around, and then I think he went up for a jumper and the ball went out of his hand and went in. And the slow timekeeper gave him the bucket and didn’t start the clock fast enough, and they counted the basket. So the NBA soon after created this Trent Tucker rule, which now says that you need to have at least three of a second to do a very quick catch and shoot. So there were 0.4 seconds left last night, which was barely more. So basically, you can’t catch the ball with 0.4 on an inbounds pass, turn, go up for a jump shot and have a full release. It’s got to be like an old Larry Bird shot where you get it and flip it up right away, right?
Terry Pluto: Yeah. I think point eight, you could catch and shoot it. Right.
David Campbell: But less than that. It has to be like an old. It’s in your hands.
Terry Pluto: It has to be exactly how they lost a game yesterday.
David Campbell: Yeah. So the Cavs, there was a pick play out near the free throw line and a wide open play for a tip in with nobody at the rim. So what should they have done there, Terry? Take us into the X’s and O’s of this mobile.
Terry Pluto: Should have just stood in front of the room. That was it. Because what happened? I. I ran it back a couple times. There was a play. I forgot the name of the Miami center. Big, tall guy, seven footer. But what happened was they. Mobley’s covering one guy and he begins to run towards the corner. He lined up under the basket, Moby’s man, but he went towards the corner. Movie follows him. Meanwhile, they set a high pick at the top of the key for the Miami center. Hunter kind of gets confused on what to do. And next thing you know, the center just bolting right to the rim. The whole lane is wide open. Inbounds pass. I think Jaime is the one who threw the inbounds Pass. It was a beautiful pass right at the rim. And he just caught your exact definition. You put it right in. And I’m going, you have to have somebody in front of the rim. That’s all.
David Campbell: Jovic is the center.
Terry Pluto: Jovic. Yeah.
David Campbell: Yeah.
Terry Pluto: And they just. They just dropped the ball on that, and it cost them. Now, there was all kinds of other things in that game, too, but it was because Donovan hit a remarkable shot to tie the game with 0.4 seconds to go. And you figure, here comes another overtime. But there’s sometimes these guys. By the way, Kenny wasn’t even on the bench. He’d been tossed out of that game in the third quarter, I think it was. And sometimes these guys overthink it. It’s 0.4 seconds. The best chance they have of scoring is to throw something up near the rim. So I’m going to put my tallest defensive player of the year, I may add, with the longest arms that about go up to the, you know, the planet Venus and have him there and see if you can throw that over him to your guy. I don’t care if he’s open at the top of the key and he’s seven foot. Who cares? You know, Throw it to him and watch him bounce it off his foot. That’s not going to know. They’re gonna. They’re gonna throw it at the rim.
David Campbell: Well, and the farther away the guy is from the basket, the less chance that he can get a shot off.
Terry Pluto: Exactly.
David Campbell: Because you need more force behind it.
Terry Pluto: Yeah.
David Campbell: The further away you are, the chances are the clock’s going to run out on you.
Terry Pluto: And you didn’t even really challenge the guy to make an excellent inbounds pass because the center was so open for Miami going to the rim that he just had to get us somewhere around there. Now, the Cavs did have somebody guarding the inbounds pass, which I like that. I never like in a play like that, where you don’t put somebody in front of the inbounder because you want to try to block his vision, make it harder. They did have somebody guarding him, but I was watching that and going, this is horrible. I, you know, police. So that. That kind of ended a crappy night for the Cavs from between Garland getting hurt and then blowing that after they worked so hard to get back into the game.
David Campbell: Yeah. And that shot that Mitchell hit.
Terry Pluto: Yeah. Donovan. Such a great player. Oh, that guy. He is.
David Campbell: So I need to ask you something. So this is kind of a little off the beat. So speaking of end of game defense, when A team needs a three. I would love to see a team not put anybody inside the three point line. Is this possible? Like why not put all five of your defenders outside the three point line and just swarm whoever gets the ball? Who cares if somebody’s inside the three point line, Let them go in there is. Am I crazy? Could this work? And why does anybody do that?
Terry Pluto: I’m thinking about it.
David Campbell: Yeah. You always see guys lined up.
Terry Pluto: You have to in the lane and.
David Campbell: They get picked and then there’s a guy open for a three. Like don’t even guard the inside the three point line.
Terry Pluto: I guess the fear would be this, that. So you kind of spread them around the arc, your five guys. Now if I see that defense, I’m lining everybody up on my offense in a straight line so you don’t know who’s going where. And maybe that would be the fear that you would not be able to have a clear assignment. Basically you’re zoning the three point arc. We’re getting deep and getting deep in the weeds here. But I think there could be some confusion there. But to your point too, these guys get open when they get picked off and that kind of stuff and they’re chasing.
David Campbell: Yeah. Anyway, that’s my crazy idea.
Terry Pluto: But if you did it once, it comes out of nowhere. My guess is if the other team had a timeout, they’d right away call one. But if they didn’t, it would be fun to see what they did and what you did. And that would be. I gotta think, you know what I’m gonna do? I’m gonna ask for Tello. Okay, I’ll try to get back to you for next week on that.
David Campbell: What I don’t know about basketball is a lot, as I said. No, no, no.
Terry Pluto: That’s the thing.
David Campbell: Just interested in that.
Terry Pluto: Mike, Mike. Mike would like that. And, and I’m sure Lenny would have had some thoughts. By the way, Lenny was 88. Think about that when he passed away.
David Campbell: So at least something so. All right, well, the Cavs have a back to back road thing going at Miami like they’ve been doing the last couple years. So the second game of that is Wednesday down in Miami and the Cavs have a six game home stand. Thursday against Toronto, Saturday, Memphis, next Monday against the Bucks, and then next. When next Wednesday, Friday and Sunday they got Houston, the Pacers in a playoff rematch and the Clippers.
Terry Pluto: So by the way, Jaylon Tyson is an Indiana Pacer style player. In your face, all that. He’s got more basketball skill than you think. He’s not just a guy running around out there. And he’s relentless.
David Campbell: Well, he will get a chance to play against the Pacers next week. Good stuff.
Terry Pluto: But I was thinking at the last couple games, I mean, this is what Carlisle. When they unleashed a couple of those guys like this.
David Campbell: It’s a good analogy.
Terry Pluto: And he fits with the other guys because they don’t have too many guys like that. I think Porter could get to that, but he’s not there yet or he’s so you. Because you have to be just determined. I know when they’re bringing Porter in the game, they’re asking him to pick up this man full court. So that’s. That’s fun. I’m. I, you know, I watch this stuff because I like basketball before. And then you mentioned Lenny Wilkins. Lenny Wilkins taught me the pro game. In fact, Bob Ryan and I wrote a book many, many years ago called 48 A Night in the Life of the NBA. And I worked with Lenny Wilkins on We took a Cav Celtics game. And this is when Bird and Parish and all those. And this is when the Cavs were young and they had Bryce and Doherty and Harper and Hot Rod. And Lenny worked with the game tape with me off of it. And Jimmy Rogers, who’s assistant to Casey Jones, worked with Bob Ryan, who’s an esteemed basketball writer. And like for example, for that book, we spent seven hours in Joe Tate’s living room over two sessions with Lenny and Joe, breaking down the game for me and for this book. And then Rogers and Ryan did it. Casey Jones didn’t care one way or the other. But we went to shoot arounds. We had access to stuff. And it really broke down how the NBA is. And it was Jimmie Rogers and Casey Jones kind of cooked up the game plans together for the Celtics. And that’s what I meant in terms of learning it and going to graduate school. And I was so blessed by that. And of course, then I got. Bob Ryan and I are working together. And Ryan was as smart and as great as any basketball writer ever. And I may add, by the way, a guy who really is that now is close to Bob Ryan’s level is Brian Winhurst. Brian, who is my protege at the Beacon Journal and now long surpassed this where I ask him stuff. He’s fabulous.
David Campbell: Absolutely. All right, well, we have to talk about the guardians, Terry. In case anybody missed it Sunday, charges were finally filed in New York. Federal charges against Emmanuel Classe and Luis Ortiz. And prosecutors are saying that they fixed games. It was everything from how fast they were going to Throw a pitch to whether it was a ball or a strike. And they say that there were four. Over $400,000 of bets were made. There’s a lot to digest here, Terry. I don’t know how deep we want to go into it, but what are your takeaways from what we learned from this indictment?
Terry Pluto: Well, one thing was interesting. It came out of the same court system and same prosecutor that did all the NBA stuff. I just keep thinking there must have been some crossover somewhere. Secondly, it’s obvious that they call them better number one, better number two, etc. They got a hold of those guys, cell phones, those betters, and that’s where they have all the stuff with Classe.
David Campbell: Where he was texting, like, you know, they’re asking, all set up during the game.
Terry Pluto: During the game, before the game. I mean, it’s outrageous. Clearly, Class A was instigating a lot of this. That, to me, was the most disappointing thing. Quasse recruited Ortiz into the scheme. It goes all the way back to 23. And to me, it’s just like. You’ve got to be kidding. I actually. I didn’t even know you could bet on speed of pitches, did you?
David Campbell: I did not. I knew you could bet on balls and strikes. Yeah, I guess it doesn’t surprise me.
Terry Pluto: Yeah, I guess anything at all. But. But the point is, they were. They were doing that. And. And according to this, you really. Look, they sold themselves out for not a lot of money. Like, there’s a couple times Classe was the middleman between the Gamblers and Ortiz and what, to throw a ball or a strike? And then what happened was when Ortiz was supposed to throw a ball and did, then they get $10,000 and class A got five and Ortiz got five. That’s it. The gamblers made over 400 grand. But I wonder how much these players got. 50 maybe. Because you said 7,000 there, 5,000 here. It wasn’t much.
David Campbell: Well, it goes back to what you’ve been saying over the last couple months, Terry, is that the pitch is, yeah, go ahead. This won’t hurt anybody. Nobody’s going to get hurt here.
Terry Pluto: Nobody’s going to get hurt.
David Campbell: Yeah, the game isn’t. The game isn’t at stake. But, yeah, I just. It’s. It’s amazing to see some of the exchanges. And a lot of Guardians fans were like, why is this taking so long? The Guardians are having to pay these guys. And this is why, like you said, they have to get the phones, they have to get the texts. And there was a game against The Dodgers, where Class A threw a terrible pitch in the dirt. And I forget it was up to bat for the Dodgers, but he swung at it. Yes. And so it ended up being a strike instead of a ball. And better one texted Class A a gif of a man hanging himself with toilet paper. And class A sent him back a gif of a pup of a sad puppy dog face or something like, what.
Terry Pluto: Are we doing here?
David Campbell: Yeah, like this is why it takes so long is because the. The feds get all this evidence and put it together before they file the thing.
Terry Pluto: And it just shows you, boy, the text messages thing and all this stuff. And by the way, this is from ESPN. The difference between a 01 count and a one and oh count. In 20, 25 pitchers with a one zero count or ball one no strikes, hit.263 with 375 on base percentage. Pitchers that start at 01, another one, no balls, one strike, hit.217 with a.255 on base percentage. So it’s hard to believe that one pitch made that much of a difference to start the count. I know a big one, by the way, that the Guardians over the years have stressed is when the count is one and one, there’s a huge swing between a two and one count and a one and two count. It’s like 100, 150 points on the batting average. But I didn’t know. I figured there was a difference. You’d rather be one and oh than oh and one to count. But it was more than I thought, so what does it matter? It does matter. Yeah.
David Campbell: Everything matters. Like, and I think you have this in your newsletter.
Terry Pluto: Yeah.
David Campbell: Tomorrow, like it all matters. Right. So. And just to follow up on this a little bit, yesterday, on Monday, Major League Baseball did place restrictions, along with all their betting partners, where you can’t. If you’re going to bet on individual pitches, they’re going to cap those bets at $200 and prohibit those bets from kind of being grouped as parlays. Where you can say, oh, there’s going to be a ball on this pitch and. And this guy’s going to hit a single. Like you can’t groove it and go for higher.
Terry Pluto: You know what?
David Campbell: I think they should have just. They should have just outlawed all of it.
Terry Pluto: Yeah.
David Campbell: Is that what you were going to say?
Terry Pluto: Yeah, because how many gambling sites are there now? I don’t know, 5, 10.
David Campbell: Yeah, well, these are all the ones that MLB partners with, which I think is 98%.
Terry Pluto: Yeah. So the point being, though, all right, so you could only bet 200, but if you spread it around.
David Campbell: You know.
Terry Pluto: 10 of them, you make some money. I. I just. Why do you. Why are you catering to these people now? Forget that. Make them bet. You know, of course, the whole sports gambling thing is big picture. I. I despise it. But make them bet on, you know, who wins the game, who loses the game, that kind of stuff.
David Campbell: Just send it there.
Terry Pluto: Yeah, that would be. That would be. You know why? Because anybody will tell you it’s hard to fix a game. You have to get a lot of people involved. I mean, the Black Sox, I believe they. I think they still won two games when they had, like, eight guys, supposedly. Now, of course, I really believe Joe Jackson just kind of took the money and played his game anyway. I mean, he had 375. He, like, threw out four guys in the World Series.
David Campbell: Yeah. One of the great debates of baseball all time is what his role was and what his role was.
Terry Pluto: You know, all that. But the idea being. It’s very hard to. And I heard Charles Barkley the other day talking about that. You know, Barkley, as he says, you know, he’s not afraid of a, quote, friendly. Friendly wager, unquote. I’m sure he’s not. But he, you know, he goes, it’s hard to fix a basketball game. And you got, you know, to watch the point spread and all that. It’s. It’s hard.
David Campbell: Yep. All right. We do have a quick letter about all this from Justin. And he says, hi, Terry and David. Setting aside all the drama surrounding Class A and Ortiz, could you help me understand, in simple terms, how much of the guardian’s current payroll is still tied up in paying those two players, if any. It’s hard to wrap my head around the idea that the team might still be financially responsible for them during the scandal. Are we still paying them their salaries while they’re on leave? And if so, is there any chance the team gets reimbursed for that from July onward? It’s driving me a little crazy thinking the league might be punishing us twice, losing key players and still paying them. Thanks for all you do. Your guardians fan in Okinawa. Thanks, Justin.
Terry Pluto: Cool.
David Campbell: So Paul Hoynes, our colleague, is actually digging into this a little bit. But as far as I know, Justin, Terry, correct me if I’m wrong, the guardians are done paying Ortiz because his contract is over. And while he was on leave, they did have to pay him, because that is what the union and MLB agreed to, is the terms of. When someone’s on the Whatever it was, the restricted list or the. The absent, you know, paid leave. Class A has one year left at $6 million, right, Terry?
Terry Pluto: Correct.
David Campbell: And until Major League Baseball decides what his deal is, the guardians will be paying him that $6 million next season, as far as I know. Is that the way you understand this?
Terry Pluto: Yes. I’m really surprised they haven’t just come out. And I remember that’s not what the NBA did when those guys got charged like Roger’s contract. Chauncey Billups being the two. No suspended, no pay. And the league can do that.
David Campbell: But it’s kind of like one of those things, Terry. Like are you pregnant or you’re not pregnant? Like either you’re banned from baseball and you’re not getting paid or you’re getting paid while the whole thing works out. Right.
Terry Pluto: They could ban them on this right now. You don’t have.
David Campbell: Yeah, that’s what I mean though. Until Major league bans them, that is the thing that would probably.
Terry Pluto: They wouldn’t get start getting paid to opening day next year, depending upon how the contract reads. I’ll talk about Classe, right? But Quasi I wrote about this in my newsletter is made about 14 million so far in his career. And he just basically wasted $26 million over the next three years because he had a 6 million guarantee for this year. And if he continued to pitch as he has been, there were two team options for 10 million each. They gladly would have picked it up or trade to somebody else who gladly would pick it up for that price. For what? For what, David? 7,000 here. They have gamblers at your house so you could, you know, send emojis back and forth of a sad puppy dog. I mean really, what are we doing here? And I have another question I’ve not heard. Now we know that class A poached Ortiz. That at least according all this is by the way, first of all, we got the words alleged should be in here. We the representatives for Ortiz and for class A, the lawyer slash agents. And both are denying everything said won’t be proven right in court or whatever. So there you’ll have all that. According to the FBI and everybody was on this Class A recruited Ortiz. I have another question. David Campbell. All right. Did he try to recruit anybody else?
David Campbell: Well, we don’t know the answer to that. I do find it curious that nobody else has been mentioned. A lot of times they’ll say co conspirator A or co conspirator B and there’s none of that in here. And I believe the guardian said during the season they’ve been told that this is it.
Terry Pluto: Right. And the league has said that. Now maybe the question is this. I’m thinking about this. Remember Ortiz got suspended or whatever. First I wonder if Classe actually tried also to recruit somebody else and that guy blew the whistle.
David Campbell: Yeah, we don’t know.
Terry Pluto: Yeah, we don’t. It’s very interesting. Point being, I’m glad there’s nobody else involved with the Guardians. But you lost two major quote unquote assets because Ortiz was a promising starting pitcher and the Guardians thought they can get more out of him. And you know, he’s the guy that they traded Jimenez for. So basically there’s a pitcher in double A that I do like named Josh Hartle. They got him in that trade. He’s about all they have left now for the Ortiz trade. Unless. Because even if Ortiz is somehow beats this rap and comes back, his trade value is not going to be very high. And I’m 99.9% sure they’re not taking these guys back here.
David Campbell: No, there’s no way they’re done. They’ll never pitch for the Guardians again.
Terry Pluto: And then Class A could have brought a really good trade package if you wanted to trade him. Or as good as they bullpen was down the stretch this past year. Can you imagine if they had Class A, you know, pitching as he did the previous years? And a big problem is this one guy texted me, he goes now whenever I see a guy spike a first pitch in the dirt to a batter, I wonder and, and carrying it farther. I’ve a couple emails said, well they didn’t come up with this. But Class A was so bad in those 24 playoffs, don’t you wonder, see, this is what you don’t want about your game because they gave up three home runs in the playoffs of 24 that year. He only gave up two home runs in the entire regular season. I’m not saying he was undertake for that, but that’s the thing when the minute it’s a bad look, questions are being, you know, it’s. It’s just a bad look and it’s the last thing they need. And they need the Major League Baseball, assuming even a third of what the stuff that the FBI and the indictment puts out, these guys are done forever. I mean, you got to come down really hard and just say this is it, we can’t have this.
David Campbell: Yeah. I think the next thing I’m curious about is will MLB wait until the court stuff plays out or will they move before then? And I, I We’ve seen the NFL do this and you were just talking about this, Terry. Like they can act on their own if they want, but I, yeah, baseball’s union is a lot stronger and I don’t know if they can. So we’ll see how that all the union.
Terry Pluto: By the way, how. How far down the road do you want to go on this issue? Very serious. How far down the road do you want to go?
David Campbell: And they have to represent these guys. But you’re right, it’s.
Terry Pluto: Yeah. Do you wanted. I mean, maybe you could negotiate some kind of settlement. Yeah, yeah. Like, okay, cost, say, you know, banner for life, but we get half the salary. You know, something like that. You could try something like that. But it’s baseball, you know, your house is dirty and you better clean it up. And it’s kind of like you got a couple of roaches in your house and if you don’t get them out real quick, the roaches are going to take over the house. They say that as somebody who lived in an old house in Savannah, which.
David Campbell: I saw when I was down there.
Terry Pluto: Yes, but you did see it. And boy, oh boy, we could not get rid of those roaches. We liked the place and everything else. And they said, yeah, those are the children. Some of them roaches been in those walls for over 100 years. Of course, they didn’t tell me that before we rented it.
David Campbell: All right, we do need to say, Terry, that these guys have just been charged and they are still awaiting trial. So this is not, they’ve not been convicted of anything. So I just want to throw that in there before we move on. So we will be tracking this the next few months here. All right, we do have one wrap up question, but first I do want to mention your newsletter, Terry. I forgot to do that at the break. You mentioned your newsletter earlier. You’ve kind of gotten a. You’ve kind of thrown out some things you’re addressing in it. Go to cleveland.com Pluto go to the blue bar at the top and you can sign up for. Terry’s newsletter comes out every Wednesday at noon. And it’s every week is something surprising and different and stuff you won’t find on cleveland.com most times and all kinds of contract stuff and things Terry’s thinking about. So again, keep cleveland.com Pluto the blue bar at the top.
Terry Pluto: So also, also, also you could get a autograph book sent directly to you. Terry pluto book all one word terrypolutobook.com it’ll take you right to the site. I’ve signed over 600 of these babies. They’re there. We still got quite a few left. I just signed some more this morning. So order it and it gets right to your door. You don’t even. So that’ll save you. Like if you’re in Okinawa and you can’t get to the book signing in Fairlawn. That’s one way around it.
David Campbell: There it is. All right. Okay, here we go. Terry, this is. I love our listeners because they always think of interesting questions to ask, and they have. They’ve really strong takes on things. This is from Rob Wright, and Rob says, I have a question about the ball strike challenge that’s coming into MLB next year. There’s two outs, the batter has two strikes and less than three balls. There’s a runner on first, and he steals second. But the ump calls strike three. The catcher doesn’t throw to second because of strike three. But then the call goes to replay. The batter challenges the called strike three, and it goes to the ball strike challenge system. And the ball strike challenge computer says it was a ball. There’s probably other scenarios like this where plays are going to have to continue even after calls. Oh, boy, buddy of me, a buddy and me are having these conversations. What do you think should happen? Or what will happen? Do you see this happening? So this is one of those things that I had not thought of. So basically, by stealing second, there’s a called strike three. The catcher doesn’t throw and the guy goes into second. But the innings over or whatever, right? Because. Or maybe not. I guess the inning wouldn’t have to be over.
Terry Pluto: No, it wouldn’t be over at all.
David Campbell: But the managers and the coaches are going to have to coach guys on this. Like, play it out like in the NFL, when there’s a fumble or a pass, whether it’s incomplete, pass or fumble, pick it up anyway, right? Is that what’s going to have to happen?
Terry Pluto: That’s probably what the league would have to tell everybody. Look, you just play this thing as it is, and we’ll straighten it out afterwards. And. But the man who, too bad he’s no longer with us, Hal Lebowitz was made for this time to answer all. Remember, ask how the referee with all those different things, you know, the, the guy throws the ball from the left field corner, it hits a bird, you.
David Campbell: Know, which is all the.
Terry Pluto: And, you know, and he would call like the head of the umpires or something, and, and get the answer. And people send me those, and I say, look, that’s a Hal question that I like. Being compared to hell, but I am no hell when it comes to these worlds.
David Campbell: Oh, and he put so much time and work into those to get the answers. Yeah, they were always really detailed.
Terry Pluto: So that would be. Yeah, that would be a good one for Hal. Would the. The replay review of the Pat of that and.
David Campbell: Well, thanks for that question, Rob, but I. I think we’re right, Terry. I think that that’s something they’re going to have to say, like, play it out. You never know what’s going to happen. So really good question.
Terry Pluto: I mean, basically, we’ve seen sometimes now you go back to first base or, you know, we’ve seen that kind of stuff.
David Campbell: All right, I think that’s going to do it for this week, right?
Terry Pluto: That’ll do it for me.
David Campbell: Okay. I didn’t do this last week, but I did want to mention if you have any thoughts, questions, comments, I have a whole bunch of emails that I’m going to be trying to work through here. Some really good stuff. Hit us at sports(at)cleveland.com and just put Terry’s talking in the subject line. We’ll try and get it onto an upcoming podcast. Thanks for listening, everybody. We will catch you next week on Terry’s Talk.
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