CLEVELAND, Ohio — In this episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast, Ethan Sands and Jimmy Watkins dig into the Cavs’ 126–113 loss to the Raptors, exploring the growing gap between who the Cavs say they want to be and the habits they keep falling back into.
Takeaways:
Q: What was the primary reason identified for the Cavaliers’ loss to the Raptors?
A: The Cavaliers’ loss was primarily attributed to a significant lack of mental toughness and competitive energy. Despite knowing the Raptors would play with high intensity, the Cavs appeared to “not have the legs to compete.” Both Donovan Mitchell and coach Kenny Atkinson acknowledged the team was mentally and physically fatigued, but host Ethan Sands argued that as the team’s leaders, Mitchell and Evan Mobley have a responsibility to bring a higher level of intensity every night, especially since they had rested the previous game. The consensus was that the team’s competitive fire was absent until the second half, and by then it was too late.
Q: How did Evan Mobley and Jarrett Allen perform, and what was the concern?
A: The frontcourt duo of Evan Mobley and Jarrett Allen was heavily criticized for being completely ineffective. Mobley scored just 7 points on 2-of-7 shooting, while Allen had only 6 points. Columnist Jimmy Watkins expressed disbelief that they were nearly outplayed by Raptors’ reserve Sandro Mamukelashvili, highlighting their passivity. The duo, considered the best interior defensive tandem in the NBA, allowed the Raptors to score 60 points in the paint. This performance was labeled “not acceptable” and raised serious questions about their impact, especially on a night when the team desperately needed them to step up.
Q: What are the growing concerns about Evan Mobley’s development this season?
A: There is significant concern that Evan Mobley has not taken the expected leap forward, despite preseason hype from his teammates and coaches about him being an MVP candidate. He was described as passive and looking like he did two years ago, taking only seven shots in 35 minutes. His performance was starkly contrasted with that of the Raptors’ Scottie Barnes, who dominated the game with 28 points, 10 rebounds, and 8 assists. The speakers noted that while progress isn’t linear, Mobley should be making “mistakes of aggression” at this stage of his career, not disappearing from games. His tendency to float offensively and his lack of assertiveness are becoming major points of concern.
Q: Is the team’s demanding schedule a valid excuse for their poor play?
A: While the hosts acknowledged the difficulty of playing five games in seven nights, they largely dismissed it as a valid excuse for the team’s lack of effort. Jimmy Watkins argued that hearing about the schedule in November from a young team is frustrating, especially when key players like Mitchell and Mobley had the previous night off to rest. Craig Porter Jr. was quoted as saying that fatigue is “not an excuse for us to give that level of effort.” The overall sentiment was that professional players, particularly those in their prime, need to find a way and push through fatigue, as overcoming such adversity is what builds mental toughness.
Q: How has the team’s identity, particularly on defense, come into question?
A: The Cavaliers’ identity as a top defensive team is being questioned. They allowed 60 points in the paint and 28 fast-break points to the Raptors, indicating significant defensive and mental lapses. The team has fallen to 15th in defensive rating, which is concerning given that their “two-big lineup” with Mobley and Allen is supposed to dominate defensively and on the boards. The speakers pointed out the irony that with offensive-minded guards out, the team’s defense should have improved, but it hasn’t. This lack of a consistent defensive mindset is seen as a symptom of the broader problem: the team still doesn’t know who it is or how to consistently bring the required effort to win.
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Transcript
NOTE: This transcript was generated by artificial intelligence and could contain misspellings and errors.
Ethan Sands: What up Cavs Nation? I’m your host Ethan Sands, and I’m back with another episode of the Want and Gold Talk podcast. And Joining me today, cleveland.com columnist Jimmy Watkins. And we’re here with you guys after The Cavs latest loss 126113 to the Toronto Raptors. And Jimmy, I want to start here. The Cavs knew that the Toronto Raptors were going to come in with a different level of vigor and intensity on the defensive end of the floor, pesking them at the point of attack and then also trying to shove it down their throats offensively in transition and just simply off the bounce. And they did all of that in tonight’s matchup. The Cavs simply did not have the legs to compete with a Toronto Raptors team, and it’s not surprising when you look at the back to backs and the five games and seven nights and all these things. But Evan Mobley and Donovan Mitchell rested last night. Sure, we can talk about the flights, the travel, all the stuff, and Donovan Mitchell going to Louisville, back to Miami, then to Cleveland. That’s a lot. But you also have a responsibility as two of the focal points of the entirety of what the Cleveland Cavaliers do to play with a different level of intensity and competitive level every night. But Craig Porter Jr. Donovan Mitchell both mentioned in tonight’s postgame press conferences about wanting to have that competitive level, that fire in regular season games tonight. It didn’t feel like the Cavs had that kind of competitiveness until the third and fourth quarter when they brought it closer. And when the Toronto Raptors pulled it away in the fourth quarter, that kind of evaporated as well. Jimmy, what did you think about tonight’s contest overall and what you saw from the players or what you didn’t see?
Jimmy Watkins: I’m just caught between these two worlds that are being presented to me by the players. On the one hand, Donovan tells us at the end of last year after the playoff exit that one of the ways that you build and demonstrate mental toughness is by never slipping out the regular season, that these things that we see tonight don’t happen. On the other, Donovan says, tonight after this game, I love it. I’m a sicko because they weren’t tested as much last year. Maybe that contributed a little bit to the reason why they weren’t ready for the punches that the Indiana Pacers threw at them in the playoffs. I think there’s some overlap of truth there. I do think it can be healthy for teams to go through ruts during the regular season. And by the way, it is understandable for the Cavs, who are missing Darius Garland and Max Strus and have been playing a cramped schedule recently. Said to take on a Raptors team that’s young and energetic and super long and creates a bunch of turnovers. Again, it’s a team without some of its best creators. This, like, some of this is predictable, right? But I’m, I struggle to just write off losses like this. Like, oh, yeah, five and seven nights, back to back game. Your two best players rested last night, and more and more I don’t think they use it as an excuse. But that excuse doesn’t work for me. If that’s, That’s a reason we want to give for this game. I don’t, I don’t really like that. The fact that we’re talking about mental toughness, you know, Kenny referenced, Donovan referenced. It was to have to push through fatigue and we didn’t. Well, that’s bad. It’s a bad thing that you didn’t do that. But I mean, Jarrett Allen and Evan Mobley. What. What’s going on? What’s going on tonight, guys? Huh? Let’s check the box score here. Evan Mobley, 7 points, 2 of 7. Jarrett Allen, 6 points, 3 of 6. Mamu, Sandro Mamukelashvili had 13 points, 5 rebounds. I mean, he almost outplayed him by himself in fewer minutes. That part boggles my mind. Again, this is not me saying I don’t, I don’t want to like raise long term alarm bells or anything like that, but I think we can all agree this is not acceptable. The Cavs didn’t have. Kenny didn’t have many answers except for we just didn’t have the juice. We didn’t bring it tonight. And again, over the course of 82 games, you’ll have that. It does happen, particularly for a team that this is. We kind of anticipated over the summer, right? Like, we were wondering where the Cavs are going to find motivation for random games. And I thought it would happen a little later than this. I was thinking like December, January, but okay, we’re here November. It’s been a long road trip. He just came back, second half, back to back. This does happen. But like I’ve said this before, and I’ll keep saying it until it stops being relevant. This whole we can’t prove anything until the playoffs, so sometimes we’re not going to show up in a regular season thing. When you haven’t done anything in the playoffs like that just rings a little bit differently. It. It just does so again, I think the Cavs are going to be fine. I don’t think the Raptors have unlocked some secrets. Also, though, this is another data point in the whole, oh, Cavs play against a big long team with a bunch of wings that can bother their creators. I get some of whom again, weren’t, weren’t around tonight. That doesn’t bode well. That’s another data point. But again, big picture, they’re fine. Small picture, this is bad. Both of those things can be true.
Ethan Sands: Coming into the season, we had this big conversation about what the Cavs area of emphasis needed to be and that was on mental toughness. That was on getting their mental awareness and fortitude to a different level for when these nights presented themselves. Kenny Atkinson said it bluntly, I wish we were a little mentally stronger, quote unquote. Donovan Mitchell then also said, when you’re mentally fatigued and you’re physically fatigued, that’s when mentally you got to be sharper and stronger as a group. And we weren’t that tonight. And I think that’s the biggest thing. And he keeps saying it as a collective. And Donovan Mitchell, you could see him physically trying to push through fatigue, trying to will the team to have a different level of competitive fire, and it backfired on him. He had multiple turnovers that were uncharacteristic of himself and it was because he was forcing things. Also, of course, in part because he had a different role tonight than he’s had all season. Yes, you’ve been to de facto point guard for a good amount of the year with Darius Garland being out. But now Lonzo’s not there either to help you out to take some of those responsibilities. So he has talked a lot this season about wanting to save his body for the playoffs, save his body for when it’s necessary, whether that’s the third and fourth quarter as we’ve seen a good amount of times this year, or just simply having his three point shot fall better than it has in years past. And that goes to say that tonight was different for Donovan. He knew that he had to get downhill. He knew that he had to attack the basket. And that doesn’t bode well for the whole philosophy of protecting your body and banging in against a larger, lengthier, more physically mature Toronto Raptors team. And sure, of course it worked out in Donovan Mitchell’s favor at points because he’s a phenomenal basketball player. He got 15 of 17 from the free throw line, 31 points. That’s great, right? But you also tell me you’re seven of 18 from the field and two of nine from Deke. So 15 of your 31 points came at the charity stripe. And Jarrett Allen, who played 21 minutes tonight, couldn’t even buy a singular free throw. Evan Mobley only had four. That means that the Cavs emphasis was in the wrong areas when it comes to tonight’s game. And Jarrett Allen is a big one for this one because Jarrett Allen at the beginning of the game was being physical, was being attack or oriented, was getting to the rim and going at the opponent, and it was working. So again, why go away from this? And obviously, this is something that we’ve seen over time. Jarrett Allen didn’t sit out the last couple of games. Jarrett Allen is still playing with a fractured ring finger on his left hand. That is all true, but if that’s the case, why not give him a rest knife? If that’s the case, if he’s not going to be able to be as productive and have the competitive fight that you can see him playing, why not do that? And again, this goes into what we talked about after yesterday, where Kenny Atkinson kind of changed his routine and was more attack oriented and did not react to what the Miami Heat did. He pushed Jarrett Allen and made them react to him. That has been a case in very small amounts of data margins that could have happened again tonight because of how he started. It didn’t. And this is where I started to contemplate and question some of the rotation decisions and some of the minute decisions that we’ve seen to start the season. And Jimmy, this gets into my next question for you because Kenny Atkinson, one coach of the year, helped him win 64 games, was fantastic in year one, and now he’s relearning this team, especially without so many of his key pieces. Well, if the Cavs are down bodies and they don’t look like they have that competitive spirit, why not go back to the same players that helped you win the game last night?
Jimmy Watkins: I hear what you’re saying. I did think he did that. Just, I mean, didn’t. Naquan Tomlin played 10 minutes in the fourth quarter. He closed the game. I mean, we had, we had Naquan, Jarrett Allen and Evan Mobley on the court. At one point tonight, I was like, whoa, this is mad scientist. Kenny kind of getting into. Into his bag a little bit. When you have established guys like this, maybe you do sometimes want to send a message to them. But I think Kenny’s. Kenny’s also playing the game in his head of like. And again, lots of rush last night, but is now fifth game and seven nights, second half of a back to back. Is that the time where I want to, you know, light into these guys for not bringing the juice tonight?
Jimmy Watkins: That’s kind of the Teniverse press conference. Right? Like, can Kenny’s not afraid, as he’s shown us before, to kind of get into these guys if he doesn’t think they’re bringing the kind of juice that they need. I think tonight though, he sounded like a coach who was kind of reserved to this type of effort. And again, as I said, it’s still bad and you shouldn’t accept it. But I think in terms of making statement type decisions that you’re suggesting here, I just think there’s a bigger picture at hand and maybe it’s not worth upsetting the apple cart over, you know, one game in November against the Toronto Raptors, but it’s fair to wonder these things. Like, that’s how bad it was. That’s how bad it was. You got your lunch handed to you by a Toronto Raptors team that individually, I like a lot of that. Scotty Barnes was fricking awesome tonight. But, like, that’s a mediocre basketball team. And shorthanded or not, end of a long stretch or not, with again, like this 5 and 7 thing for Donovan, Evan, it’s not that you should be able to at the very least be competitive with this team. And the Raptors, the Raptors took it to you, Jimmy.
Ethan Sands: And I understand your caution here, and I think it’s fair that you don’t want to necessarily light into a team 13 games into a season. But also I think you have to hold them accountable. Like, if you’re not playing to a certain standard and you’re playing nine minutes in the fourth quarter and you’ve taken one shot and you have one point and you’re a minus 11. Yes, I’m talking about Evan Mobley. Like, maybe you go away from that guy. And there were at points in tonight’s game where I was questioning whether Donovan Mitchell should be out there, because also you understand what he’s been dealing with to start the season. Some hamstring tightness, all these other things. If you know that this game, you just don’t have it. And that’s the phrasing that Kenny Atkinson continuously used. Maybe, maybe you see what other guys are willing to give you. And obviously Thomas Bryant, Tyrese Proctor and Luke Travers played in like the last two and a half minutes of the contest. But that’s not necessarily what I’M referring to holding these guys accountable to what they’ve said that they want to be and what they want to accomplish. And this is where we get into the Evan Mobley conversation, Jimmy, because I think we’re trying to figure out what defines Evan Mobley’s role. And to be fair to him, he’s been thrown in a whole lot of different buckets this season. He’s been asked to be the main offensive focal point with Donovan Mitchell and Darius Garland and Jarrett Allen on the bench. He’s been a guy that has been asked to expand his range and get into the painted area on different occasions, all these different things. The Cavs have asked a lot of Evan Mobley, but there’s a reason behind that. And the reason being is before the season even began, Donovan Mitchell and Kenny Akinson both threw Evan Mobley’s name into this MVP conversation because they believed and they expected something bigger from him. But when you look at some of these advanced metrics and what he’s actually doing on the floor and how he’s attacking offenses or attacking defenses, excuse me, I think it’s concerning about what he hasn’t been able to do productivity wise. And we mentioned Scotty Barnes and Evan Mobley, we were told, has gotten stronger, bigger, more physical, more assertive. Evan has in past years relished the opportunity to go up against Scotty Barnes because of the whole Rookie of the Year debate. And it did not feel feel like that was the case tonight. He was 2 of 7 from the field. As you mentioned, Jimmy had just 17 points. He was a minus 18 on the floor. And Scotty Barnes was the exact opposite. He was a plus 18 on the floor. He had 28 points, five blocks, 10 rebounds and eight assists. And he was a guy that felt like he could get anything he wanted at any point in the contest. That’s what the Cavs want from Evan Mobley. To run the floor, to get up in the space, to make defenses react to him, and choosing mismatches in the transition offense. I think what we saw tonight from Scotty Barnes is who the Cavs want Evan Mobley to be. And that’s disappointing to hear because for the last few years, outside of the rookie season where Scotty Barnes went home with the hardware, you thought that Evan Mobley had more potential, had a better skill set than Scotty Barnes. And up until tonight, it felt like every time I watched them, the competition wasn’t really close. But tonight you saw a different version of Scottie than we’ve seen against Mobley in a While.
Jimmy Watkins: And here’s. Here’s where I’m conflicted again, because I’m trying to be nuanced here. Right. Darius Garland’s not there. Your point guard makes a huge difference for your big men. Lonzo Ball’s not there. He makes it. He knows how to get people to ball. He has a great feel for the game. He knows when someone’s out of rhythm or someone needs a shot, all that sort of thing. Right. Donovan Mitchell’s over here trying to do everything, and it’s not working out. He’s trying to navigate tight spaces. He’s trying to force stuff that isn’t there. Sometimes he was talking about, you know, sometimes you got to read the game. Tonight. He read the game and he realized, oh, oh, I don’t have much else tonight, so I’m just going to go ahead and try to do it. And we could talk, as you alluded to Ethan, like, that’s not a good thing in November. This is what Kobe Altman was talking about when he said he wanted to pull down a net. Like, hey, man, just let go. See what happens. I would have liked it much better tonight if Donovan was saying all this. I love. I’m a sicko. If he had let go of the range and they lost by 25. Because then you can learn a lesson. I think that sends a clear message. That’s. Now, that’s kind of like passive aggressive. That’s something LeBron James would do. I don’t always love LeBron’s tactics, but I think, you know, tonight would have been a nice little. A nice time for Donovan Mitchell. Been passive aggressive, be like, hey, guys, I’m not going to do it, so show me what you got. Sometimes it’s got to be that way, right? We’ll talk better than what we go, Evan Mobley. Are we just paying lip service? Levin Mobley, when we say how much stronger he’s gotten, how much, oh, he looks a different guy. The way he walks, the way he talks, different guy. It doesn’t look that different to me right now. We’re early in the season. I’m open to the possibility that Darius Garland coming back will change his. His outlook completely. But, like, this is the Runway. One of core four’s out, the number two guy on offense. Now you’re supposed to be the number two guy. And you took seven shots in 35 minutes. The last time that Evan Mobley took seven shots or fewer while playing 35 more minutes was two years ago, December of 2023. It’s one game, but you Never want Evan Mobley to look like he did two years ago. Right? Progress isn’t linear. I understand that, but this is supposed to be the Evan Moby blow up year. You know what happens to guys on MVP balance. You know how many times Donna Mitchell’s played 35 minutes in a game and taken seven or two or shots? It’s never happened. That’s unfair. Don Mitchell has the ball at stance all the time, right? No, that’s not happened to Giannis. In your, in your wildest dreams, that’s who the Cavs want Evan Mobile to be. Like an 85, 90% version of right. Giannis hasn’t done that in a decade, since he was 21 years old when he was baby deer Giannis. Everyone was supposed to be past this kind of game. Now, while Ethan was introducing this segment, I watched back Evan Mobley’s shots because there weren’t very many of them. I watched every single one of them on NBA.com. there was one basically in the paint and it was a tip in. And yes, Scotty was boxing up. Scotty Barnes made this man a jump shooter. Come on, go get something. And again after the game, Dom is like, well, you’re seeing. And he’s right in to say this development’s not always pretty either. And you’re seeing it right in front of your eyes. But it’s just like I thought we were past this part when you’re telling me he’s going to be on MVP ballots, right? Like I thought this is what we would be seeing last year when Kenny’s like unlocking Evan Mobley for the first time. That’s the peek at it. Like you take a, take a peek out of your comfort zone type of stuff. The mistakes that Evan Mobley should be making now are mistakes of aggression. And that’s what we’ve been seeing. Like I actually haven’t hated. Even though he hasn’t been super efficient, back the least efficient start to the season of his career, I haven’t been that discouraged because at least he’s trying to do stuff right. He’s shooting more, he’s attacking more, he’s figuring out what he can and can’t do. He’s going by trial and error. And if sometimes he puts his head down and he misses an open player because he’s being aggressive, okay, we can live with that. Or if sometimes he, you know, shoots a pull up three that I’d rather have him turn into a drive, that’s a different, different conversation. But at least he’s going for it. Right. When Evan Mobley, the guy who you say this is, what the future of the franchise depends on, this guy, when he starts to look like Jarrett Allen, like the bad version of Jarrett Allen, he’s just floating through games. Evan Mobley had nine rebounds tonight. It wasn’t. It wasn’t like he disappeared off face there, but like, long stretches of this game where I’m like, where’s Evan Mobley at when you have that type of game, like, it’s hard to be nuanced. Oh, and then, by the way, this is a small thing and it’s a thing. Maybe people don’t care about Evan Mobley. I would have loved to ask a few questions to Evan Mobley about this tonight. He wasn’t there. Now, I don’t think Evan Mobley unilaterally made that decision. He probably wasn’t on the. On the PR docket. This happened with Tyres Halbert in the playoffs last year where he had a bad playoff game and PR told him, like, hey, we don’t want you to speak tonight. Like they were being protective of him or whatever that was. Those were his words and he got absolutely skewered for it. This is a different setting. It’s a random game in November. But you know what happens to superstars who don’t have good games? They have to answer for it. I’m trying to be nuanced and kind of nice here because there’s a version of this record is throw up on the site tomorrow. Evan Mobley’s not only not playing like Superstar, then he’s ducking the media afterwards. And I think I’d be within my rights to do that. But I’m not going to do that because I agree with what Donovan’s saying. Progress isn’t linear. I just thought we were past this part of it.
Ethan Sands: One of the most glaring portions of tonight’s game has been a recurring theme for this Cavs team, at least as of late, has been their defensive mindset and just lapses that they continuously have on that end of the floor. We can talk about Scotty Barnes and how he was getting up and down the floor, but The Cavs allowed 28 points in the fast break tonight. You know how many The Cavs had? 6. Six fast break points to Toronto’s 28 points because they simply were running it down their throats. And even when the Toronto Raptors got into the half court, they were picking apart whatever defense the Cavs were in. It didn’t matter if they were in a 2, 3 zone. It didn’t matter if they were in man to man coverage, they were simply getting to the rim through back cuts through just having movement off the ball. Whereas the Cavs got caught ball watching on too many occasions that it felt like the Toronto Raptors had a free ray to the rim via the baseline. And I texted this to our subtexters during the game because it was alarming to me. There was a four defensive possession stretch where the Cavs allowed a layup at 1.23ft, basically a turnaround at 8ft and another turnaround by Scotty at 14ft, all within the painted area. And it was because they were simply not focused. And I know you can be tired and I know that you had fifth game in seven nights. And we’re continuously saying this because it’s true the Cavs have had a difficult stretch, but they’re 13 games into the season and mentally this team is still having toughness questions and it shouldn’t be because that has been the top of the billboard for the entire season. We did not play tough enough mentally and physically against the Indiana Pacers. You know who plays that kind of style? The Chicago Bulls. You know who plays that kind of style? The Toronto Raptors. You know who plays that kind of style? The Miami Heat. Teams that you are likely to see potential suitors for a playoff series and you’re still having mental lapses and it doesn’t have to do with whether you got physically boxed out or whatever. But the Cavs competitiveness has been lacking to me and we talk about this a lot. And again, going back to our debate with me and Chris, like Chris saying that it’s 82 game season, yada yada yada, you should want to win every single game. And I’m not saying that the Cavs don’t, but sometimes they need to act like it. And Craig Porter Jr. Said after tonight’s game, we just came in and everybody’s kind of tired and you could see that. But it’s not an excuse for us to give that level of effort. And we all know that. And that’s one thing we emphasize, just making sure we play hard every night, regardless of who’s out there talking about who’s out for the Cavs. But why does that have to be emphasized? Why is that not innate? Why is that not inside of you saying that I’m going to play as hard as I can? And again, Jimmy, this is kind of what I’m saying. I know that Craig Porter Jr. Is going to play hard for as long as he’s on the Floor. I know Naquan Tomlin’s going to play hard for as long as he’s on the floor. I know Thomas Bryant is going to play hard because these are players that don’t know when they’re going to play next that understand that they’re fighting for something. And I mentioned this in a recent podcast. I think the Cavs need that underdog mentality. When they went into Miami and they saw the betting line score is like minus 6.5 in favor of the Heat, that does something to you. And this Cavs team, I feel like, needs too much motivation to go out and play a game that they are, one, getting paid for, two, that they tell us they love and three, that you would want to win. And I think this is a team that we’re continuously trying to find out their identity and who they are. And to me, the mental toughness portion of it shouldn’t be in question because that should be on your mind throughout the entirety of the season.
Jimmy Watkins: Developing mental toughness is not about just seeing adversity, it’s about overcoming it right now. Like going back to Donphan’s quote about I’m a sicko. I love this. Why? Why? Because it’s hard. Okay, it’s hard right now, but you’re not handling it well. Why is that a good thing? Why is that a good. It can be a good thing if you channel it the right way and you respond the right way. But tonight you didn’t. So that wasn’t good. Sicko or not, that was a bad look. That was a bad look. And to your point about defense, let’s make this an Evan Mobley and Jarrett on conversation because I kind of just went in on Evan Mobley for a little bit. 60 points in the paint for the Toronto Raptors. The Toronto Raptors shot up pretty well from three tonight. I would not describe them as having the kind of three point shooting roster that compromises your paint defense to the degree that, like you need to. It’s understandable. If you get kids, you have to close out so hard and you have to stay close to stay close to all the shoes. They got some stretch five, it’s fine. You know, Mamu Mamu, you have to account for. He was good tonight, but like 60 points in the paint, you’re supposed to have the best interior defense, big man tandem in the NBA. You have the defensive player of the year. Didn’t see that. Didn’t see those things. Those things weren’t familiar tonight. Through 13 games, the Cavs are 15th in defense average.
Ethan Sands: Average.
Jimmy Watkins: That was one of the other things that. Okay, we were trying to spin zone the beginning of the season. Right. Well, Darius going to Max Struce aren’t here right now and that will be difficult in many regards. But that means the Cav should be better on defense or at least if they embrace their defensive identity again, they could be better on defense because those are two of their more attackable defenders. Yes. Where’s that? Defense is a mentality. Defense and mental toughness. The word cloud pretty similar. It rubs knee, it rubs fans. I’m sure of it the wrong way for you to come out of the gates looking like this again. I understand it’s a long season. You’ve had a hard road trip recently. The NBA schedule needs reform as Kenny was talking about couple of weeks ago, buddy. It’s November, buddy. You have a bunch of players in the prime there. The Golden State warriors want to start getting lippy about the schedule right now because they have a retirement home roster. I totally understand that. Donovan Mitchell’s 29 guys, FMO’s 24. Jarrett Al is 26. He played. He played 82 games last year. Like the more we talk about this, the more I don’t want to hear about the schedule right now. Five and seven can be hard. It’s November. You’ve played 13 games. Let’s be big boys, huh?
Ethan Sands: And I just want to reiterate that they’re 13 games into the season. This cast team is still 8 and 5. They’re still revered as one of the most feared in the Eastern Conference, but there’s still much to be desired from this team and there’s still much that they’re looking for from this team. That is why Donovan Mitchell keeps saying that it’s a good thing that this is happening. Right? Psychologically you didn’t have to deal with so much last year because you were 150 and then you got to the end of the season and you started seeing some bumps and bruises. And he said it then too. He said it then too. I’m glad we’re having this at the end of the season now rather than in the playoffs. It happened again in the playoffs. It’s happening again now. And this is a different team because Max Drew still hasn’t played a single game for the Cavs in 2025, 2026. But are they going to have to relearn themselves again when that time comes?
Jimmy Watkins: I would love to get a penny for Max Strus thoughts on this game. Do you think Max Strus would have said I’M a sicko. I love that. After that basketball game, no, Max Drew would have said four words to us total in response to 11 interview questions because he would have been so seething mad after that is the antithesis of Max Drew’s basketball. What we saw out there tonight, and Max Drew would have been yapping and huddle. I’m sure he was. I’m sure he was yapping and huddles tonight. He doesn’t stand for that kind of thing.
Ethan Sands: Two things to end today’s podcast. The first being, I think, the most alarming thing for Evan Mobley. And I said this in a recent podcast when Evan Mobley kind of watched the ball roll by and Donovan Mitchell sprinted after it and was trying to get to it in the backcourt and Evan Mobley was kind of just watching him. That happened too much tonight when it was like Evan Mobley was simply watching a ball come off the boards. It was like, okay, I know somebody else is going to get it. It’s too far for me. You’re seven foot tall. You’re supposed to be the man rebounder. You’re supposed to be active at all times. And Jimmy, I think you said it well earlier. Jarrett Allen does that. When he’s disengaged on offense, he becomes disengaged defensively and we know how important he is on that end of the floor. Evan Mobley, as Jimmy put it, is the defensive player of the year. The Cavs have never had to worry about Evan Mobley defensively. Never. If that becomes a thing, we’re having different conversations because Evan Mobley is always supposed to be able to grab rebounds and is always supposed to be a factor defensively. And I don’t know if he was in tonight’s game for either of those. Obviously he came away with nine rebounds, but there were still many others that he let slip through his fingers or were just out of his reach. That allowed the Toronto Raptors get easy second chance opportunities, easy second chance points. And it can’t happen when your all star power forward slash center is looking around for a guard to grab a rebound.
Jimmy Watkins: All NBA forward, as told to us by the leader of this team, future MVP candidate. This year. They were talking about this year, by the way. What if that’s just. This is what it is. What if he’s never going to be that focal guy? Five years. Five years. I get it. He’s on a team with two ball dominant guards who are very comfortable in their own skin. He’s trying to fit around them. There’s also his third year playing with them. How much longer do we wait? Thirteen games. Five and seven. Weird game. I understand. I’m trying to be nuanced here. Progress can be incremental. It’s not always linear. I get it. They’ve been praising Evan for doing some of the things they’ve been asking to do in that regard this year so far. Here’s the other thing, though. Do MVPs need to call for the ball? MVP candidates, fringe MVP candidates. Or do they just get the ball? You don’t lose track. Craig Porter said something to the effect of like, we kind of just lost him out there tonight. That doesn’t happen with players. The caliber that the Cavs are saying Evan Mobley is, that doesn’t happen. Like Scotty Barnes took him out of the game tonight. Point blank period. That doesn’t happen to those kinds of players. He had the night off last night. I might just be off the Evan Mobley MVP bandwagon this year. Again. Thirteen games. That’s. That’s a not. That’s not an insignificant part of the season. These count. These games do count towards the awards, by the way. So maybe that’s just. Maybe that’s not happening this year. That’s not the end of the world. But I expect it to be leaning toward that being a reality than being completely off it by this point, kenny said before the game. Possession battle wins playoff games the Cavs were out rebounded tonight. The Toronto Raptors ranked 23rd in rebound three entering tonight. Okay, there’s not very big. They’re not tall, they’re long and rangy and Scotty Barnes is strong, but they’re not a good rebounding team. We’re year five of this too big lineup. The Cavs are 17th and rebounding. They were about that last year. I think they were actually 18th during the regular season. Like, isn’t that supposed to be one of the biggest advantages of playing that kind of lineup?
Ethan Sands: There’s a lot of things wrong with it, but here’s my last take on today’s game. The Cavs don’t have a switch that they can flip. They are not a proven playoff team. You have to prove it now that you can make adjustments, Chris said in a recent podcast. You cannot compare the CAVS to the OKC Thunder. Yeah. 1. The Cavs have not won a championship without LeBron James. OKC has 2. OKC is willing to do whatever it takes to win on every given night. OKC has won all of its games this season without Jalen Williams. What I’m Saying is the Cavs do not have a switch to flip. They are not that kind of team. You have to show it now. You have to prove it now. You have to prove it to yourselves now that this is the team that you are capable of being in the playoffs. And if this is the team that they’re going to be in the playoffs, there are not only going to be questions, there are going to be changes. Because we’ve said it since before the season began. The Cavs at least, at least have to make it to the NBA Finals. This is a wide open Eastern Conference. They have to make it to the NBA Finals. For this team to feel like it was a success, whether they win it or not, still up in the air because we know who’s out west. But this Cavs team, the goal, the bare minimum for them not to make drastic changes by the end of the season is if they make it to the NBA Finals. And this team right now has a lot of questions on it. And again, they’re missing key pieces. But that does not take away from the fact that the competitive spirit that is needed, the physical toughness, the mental toughness, the mental fortitude has been in question in multiple games to start the season. That’s not the signs of a championship contending team.
Jimmy Watkins: I don’t think the east is as bad as we thought it was going to be. I don’t think this is going to be just like a cornfield getting plowed to the Finals. Like you can just walk through. Like, Philadelphia 76ers are clearly better than we thought they were going to be with or without Joel Embiid. I think the Toronto Raptors and Miami Heat, as we’ve seen this week, are clearly better than we thought they were going to be. It was such a great win last night. All these dudes who are playing for their NBA lives looking great against the Miami Huey do clearly thought they could play with their food a little bit and walk out with a home victory. Nope. Here comes Luke Travers. Here comes Naquan Tomlin. Here comes Craig Porter Jr. With a stat line you’ve never seen. The question before the game to Kenny was like, hey, maybe that carries over. Like, the vibes are so good. Maybe that juice carries over. Nope, actually, it’s the opposite. They have none. They have none. Despite adding star players who had rest. It’s back. That’s a bad thing. We can all admit that we don’t have to do whatever the Calves were doing tonight and trying to spin this into like, hey, adversity is good. No, overcoming adversity is good. Whatever that was was bad. It doesn’t have to be bad forever, but for right now it was bad. A lot of things I’m saying I think I thought at the beginning of the year are changing now. Among them, I thought the Cavs could have the same flaws, the same mental toughness issues, the same questions about playoff performers aside from Donovan Mitchell, and still go farther in the playoffs as a group than they have ever gone before. Just by virtue of there’s no Jason Tatum, there’s no Tyrese Halliburton. The Milwaukee Bucks are looking a little competent, like you might have to deal with Giannis over a long series. I’m not sure who else the Cavs are really scared of in a playoff series besides the New York Knicks, who in theory you wouldn’t have to see until the Eastern Conference finals. I’m not saying that has changed, but I think it’s changing.
Ethan Sands: It’s difficult to have these conversations because it’s only 13 games into the season and you don’t want to overreact. And I don’t feel like we are overreacting because this last week has shown you the competition level in the Eastern Conference as Jimmy mentioned. But it’s also just who the Cavs are and they’re still finding out who they are. But mentally identity wise, they need to find out who they want to be and what everybody’s role is to be able to do that. And while it’s great that the bench players are getting run and showing themselves and showing what they can do, those guys roles have been defined. They’ve found their niches. Why haven’t the star player? With all that being said, that’ll wrap up today’s episode episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. But remember to become a Cavs insider and interact with Chris, me and Jimmy by subscribing to Subtext. This is where you can send in your weekly hey Chris questions, but the only way to do so is signing up for a 14 day free trial or visiting cleveland.com Cavs and clicking on the blue bar at the top of the page. If you don’t like it, that’s fine. All you have to do is text the word stop. It’s easy, but we can tell you that the people who sign up stick around because this is the best way to get insider coverage on the Cavs from me, Chris and Jimmy. This isn’t just our podcast, it’s your podcast. And the only way to have your voice heard is through subtext. Y’ all be safe. We out.
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