CLEVELAND, Ohio — In this episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast, Ethan Sands, Chris Fedor and Jimmy Watkins break down what to make of Jarrett Allen’s shrinking role in fourth quarters — including whether it signals a bigger shift in the organization’s plans.
Takeaways:
Q: Despite a winning record, what is the overall sentiment regarding the Cavaliers’ performance, especially after their win against a Bucks team that lost Giannis Antetokounmpo mid-game?
A: The consensus is that something feels “off” and “clunky” with the team, a sentiment reportedly shared by acting coach Kenny Atkinson. Despite being on a 55-win pace, the recent victories are viewed as more a result of opponents’ misfortunes—like Antetokounmpo’s injury—than the Cavaliers’ own brilliance. The speakers note that while the team has the talent and depth to accumulate regular-season wins, they are not consistently playing good basketball or meeting the high expectations set for them. There is a sense that the team is just trying to “get through” the regular season, a concerning approach for a team that has not yet achieved significant playoff success.
Q: The podcast heavily emphasized Evan Mobley’s development as crucial for the team’s championship hopes. What are the primary concerns about his current performance?
A: The main concern is Evan Mobley’s inconsistent aggression and fluctuating role on offense. After starting the season with an aggressive mindset, he has recently had games with single-digit shot attempts, a significant drop-off. The speakers speculate that the coaching staff may have pulled back on empowering him to be a primary scorer in favor of more “optimal” efficiency, leading to confusion and hesitation in his game. While his assist numbers can be positive, they are often paired with a high number of turnovers. The unequivocal conclusion is that the Cavaliers cannot reach legitimate championship contention with the passive version of Mobley seen in recent games.
Q: Jarrett Allen is considered part of the “core four,” but his role has diminished, particularly in fourth quarters. What does this signal about his future with the team?
A: There is a significant disconnect between Jarrett Allen’s stated importance to the organization and his actual usage. He has become a spectator in fourth quarters, with Coach Atkinson often opting for smaller lineups or even other big men like Nae’Qwan Tomlin and Thomas Bryant. This trend fuels speculation that Allen’s future in Cleveland is uncertain. The speakers argue that if the team doesn’t treat him like a core player, his trade value may diminish. The situation is reaching a point where the front office might be more open to trading him for a rotation-level player at another position, especially if he continues to be sidelined during crucial game moments.
Q: With Jarrett Allen’s future in question, how realistic is a major in-season trade, such as for a player like Anthony Davis?
A: A major trade for a high-salaried player like Anthony Davis is considered “very, very difficult” and highly unlikely during the season. The primary obstacle is the Cavaliers’ status as a second-apron luxury tax team, which imposes severe restrictions on their ability to aggregate salaries in a trade. Any potential in-season move would likely involve a more modest target—a sixth or seventh man making around $20 million annually. A significant roster shake-up is seen as more probable in the offseason, after the team has a clearer picture of this season’s outcome and has more flexibility.
Q: What unique value are undrafted and late-round players like Nae’Qwan Tomlin and Craig Porter Jr. bringing to the Cavaliers?
A: Players like Nae’Qwan Tomlin and Craig Porter Jr. bring a distinct energy, grittiness, and hunger that contrasts with the more skill-based identity of the team’s core. Tomlin, in particular, stands out for his relentless activity and disruptive presence, which makes him “annoying as hell to play against.” This high motor is a quality nobody else on the roster matches. These players, who have had to fight for their NBA careers, provide a “fearlessness” and a different dimension to the team. Their emergence not only gives Atkinson more lineup flexibility but also serves as a valuable internal pipeline for developing talent under restrictive salary cap conditions.
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Transcript
NOTE: This transcript was generated by artificial intelligence and could contain misspellings and errors.
Ethan Sands: What up, Cavs Nation? I’m your host, Ethan Sands, and I’m back with another episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast and it feels like it’s been a minute since we had the three headed goat on the podcast. Chris Fedor, Jimmy Watkins joining me after the Cleveland Cavaliers latest win over The Milwaukee Bucks. 118-106. And guys, I don’t necessarily want to start on a sour note, but I think we have to be real about tonight’s contest. The game shifted when Giannis Antetokounmpo went out for the Milwaukee Bucks with a left groin strain and was not able to play in the entirety of the second half. Guys, I know this cast team is trying to find ways to win, fight through adversity and get their own flow and rhythm going on their own, but this was a major advantage that they had. Do you think that they exploited it to the standard that they wanted to in that second half?
Chris Fedor: No, I don’t think so. I think Kenny Atkinson was looking around at all the guys that the Bucks were using and saying to himself, how the hell Is this a four point game going into the fourth quarter when Giannis has only played 13 minutes? You could sense it in Kenny Atkinson talking about this game. Post game, he didn’t feel great about the team’s performance. He used the word clunky. He used the word slog. First it was slug, but that’s a bad word for a coach to use in Cleveland. Harkens back bad memories of the John Beeline era. Nobody wants that. I mean, you got some rough PTSD when you talk about the Jock Beeline era. So you could just tell from Kenny, you know, he didn’t want to. He didn’t want to be overly critical of the team’s play and he didn’t want to pile on the Bucks other players. But he was basically like, are you kidding me? We’re supposed to be one of the best teams in the Eastern Conference and it’s a four point game going to the fourth quarter against that team without Giannis. Like why? What is going on with us? Like what aren’t we doing? And. And that’s something that Kenny has been talking about, I think, for the last week, week and a half. He’s focused on the how and the why of things, not the what the end result’s going to be. The end result. As he said it after the game, the Cavs have so much talent, they have so much depth that they’re going to pile up a bunch of wins. Just organically but does that mean that they’re playing good basketball? Does that mean that this is the team that Kenny Atkinson expected to have coming into the season? Does this mean that this is the version of Evan Mobley that Kenny Atkinson and this entire organization has been expecting? No. If you talk to any of the players in the locker room, they will all admit it. And I think it’s important that they’ll admit it because some teams are just going to get blinded by wins and losses. But this team isn’t. Talk to anybody in that locker room, they’ll say that something is off with this team. And I think, I think it’s true. I think something is off with this team. Their last two victories have been more about who the other team didn’t have or what the other team was dealing with as opposed to their own brilliance that they showed.
Jimmy Watkins: That being said, they are still on like a 55 win pace.
Chris Fedor: Yeah, of course.
Jimmy Watkins: And I think that’s mostly to Chris’s point. It’s mostly a thank God for the Eastern Conference 55 win pace. Like I was going through the standings. CAVs have a plus 4.7 point differential, which is tied with the Toronto Raptors, by the way. Wow. Toronto Raptors or third best in the Eastern Conference. There are five teams in the west that have a point differential at least a point and a half better than that. Jordan Otts, Phoenix Suns are around that same range. Plus 4.7 is basically a. You’re just out of the play in point differential in the Western Conference. In the east, you’re cruising. We knew this was coming this year. Right. We knew this was a big challenge for the players from an internal motivation standpoint for. From Kenny Atkinson. How do you push these guys through all this? What happened to this narrative about the regular season matters? Doesn’t seem like that’s how the players are treating it. I think they’re just trying to. It seems like they’re just trying to get through it, by and large. And I do think we saw a glimpse of it. I do think this team would look a little bit different at least on offense with Darius Garland in the fold. But there, there are more things happening here than that. I just think like tonight Kenny was using the word focus. What happened to the focus? Feel like we had lapses of focus against last week against the Raptors. They just didn’t have any juice.
Jimmy Watkins: Guys, we’re 15 games into the season. Like it’s going to be a long season if we’re already here. I do think getting Darius back, getting Max back. Even whenever Jaylon Tyson comes bouncing back from this concussion, he. He’s another one of those guys you guys were talking about in the last, last episode, about how Nae’Qwan Tomlin, like, when you’re playing with Nae’Qwan Tomlin, you better start playing harder because he’s going to make you look bad otherwise. And I agree that it shouldn’t be that way, but it is. Jaylon Tyson’s another one of those guys. I think those guys will bring little jolts individually. And then when the Cavs are all whole, there will be this. At least in the first, like, month and a half, two months, there will be this like, okay, we have everybody now. Let’s get back to what we do. But by the way, at the end of that, there’s going to be like another 25 games. The regular season’s just super long. And I will continue to say I really don’t like the Cavs taking this approach when they haven’t really done anything in the playoffs. This sort of switch flipping thing is reserved for teams who have accomplished things in the NBA. Fans don’t like it. Fans are frustrated with some of the key pieces of the season. I threw out just like a fun little Evan Mobley statistical subtext compared to Giannis during the game. Everyone was just like, don’t compare him to Giannis. That’s not even close. It’s like, you know what? Right now, I can’t argue with you. It’s just the complete opposite of last regular season. And there are, there can be benefits to the Cavs not starting so hot. They certainly see it that way. But, like, from a viewership perspective right now, if you’re a fan, the Cavs are not a good hang.
Ethan Sands: So, guys, I, I think there’s a lot there, right? We talked a lot about the intensity that the Cavs are playing with or the lack thereof, and also just the standard that they’re trying to set. Last year, the key word, the buzzword for this team was setting habits in the regular season that they can then execute in the postseason. And I think they’re still trying to do that. But there’s also a conversation about where this Cavs team wants to be and in the identity crisis that they’re trying to alleviate currently. And Jimmy, you mentioned it there, some things are going to get better when Darius Garland and Max Trooce get back. Some things also could get worse because we talked about how this Cavs team is better suited personnel wise, to have the defensive principles that they want to have. Well, then you add in Darius Garland alongside some other attackable defenders, some things might change. And we go back to what these players said at the end of the season, press conferences last year where they were like this 82 game season doesn’t necessarily matter, yada yada yada. But Donovan Mitchell tonight did say that they want to play every night, every game, every minute, with a standard level of energy and intensity. And I think that part is important for this team throughout the regular season as a whole in particular. And obviously Donovan Mitchell likes to lead by example more than anything else. And he had 37 points on 22 field goal attempts tonight, four of eight from the three point line. He had 25 points in that first half alone. And then obviously Sam Merrow as well kicked it up in the gear in the second half. He had 20 points in the overall contest, 7 of 10 from the field, 6 of 9 from the three point range. I just think there are positives to take away, but there are also things where this team is kind of being controversial in itself. When some players are saying it doesn’t matter and some players are saying that they want to give it their all every time they’re on the floor. And I think they need to find the balance or simply get on the same page.
Chris Fedor: Yeah, I don’t know that they know how they want to present this because I don’t think they just want to come outright and say, although some guys have already said this, the regular season doesn’t matter because, Jimmy, you mentioned it, they haven’t accomplished anything. They can’t be like LeBron’s Cavs, they can’t be like the Heatles, they can’t be like the Golden State warriors where they just snub their nose at the regular season because they haven’t accomplished. They haven’t reached that level where they can do that. And the other thing, and I was talking to somebody about this scout in the NBA before tonight’s game and it’s a strange thing because you understand what’s missing right now. Darius Garland just gives this team a different offensive ceiling. And Max Stru for all of his playoff shortcomings, for all of the questions that people have about him, should he start, should he come off the bench, whatever. Since the minute he got here, he has been an impact player, player. And he has brought something to this starting lineup and something to this team as a whole. And you’re feeling those absences, right? So you can’t just downplay those things because they are real. And all of a sudden, you know, Jaylon Tyson is playing the fifth most minutes of anybody and that wasn’t the plan. And Craig Porter Jr. Is playing like the seventh most minutes of anybody, and that wasn’t the plan. And Sam Merrill, there’s more asked of him and he’s playing more minutes than at any point in his entire career. And he’s been really, really good, by the way. But like, these guys are thrust into roles that on one hand they may not be ready for, on another hand they haven’t been in before. So you can’t just overlook those things, right? But at the same time, like, even though you admit that those things are missing and those things are playing a part in this, has this team really earned the benefit of the doubt where you can sit there and say, well, when those guys come back, everything’s fine. Like the offense is going to be great again, the defense is going to be on point again, and like the Cavs are going to be a team that challenges the Denver Nuggets and the Oklahoma City Thunder and anybody else that you think is a legitimate title contender. That’s where I think it becomes really, really difficult. Because on one hand you want to give them the benefit of the doubt because you know what’s missing and the impact of those absences. On the other hand, they haven’t earned the benefit of the doubt. They’re still trying to get to that point where you can just say, ah, they’ll flip a switch when the playoffs come around or eh, they’ll flip a switch when March hits, or something along those lines. And I just don’t think that this team has earned that yet. The other thing that I think makes this complicated is that we talked about this the other night on the podcast. Everything with this organization is through the lens of where is Evan Mobley? And is, is he still on the same timeline, the same contention timeline as Donovan Mitchell and this team? Like, if this team has legitimate championship aspirations, it’s not about winning a bunch of games in the regular season. Legitimate championship aspirations. Can that happen with the version of Evan Mobley that the Cavs have gotten in the first 15 games? The answer is no. Unequivocally, no. So if you’re sitting here and you’re trying to analyze that and you’re looking at the big picture thing and Evan plays the way that he has in the first 15 games where he doesn’t look like second team, all NBA, he doesn’t look like an all Star, you’re kind of looking at this season saying, well, what’s the point? Like if Evan can’t get there. This team can’t get there. If Evan can’t get there, then nothing else matters. But it doesn’t matter that Sam Merrill is shooting lights out from three point range. It doesn’t matter that Craig Porter Jr. Is providing all this effort and picking up full court and providing a boost, coming off the bench and filling those backup point guard minutes. And Jalen Tyson has looked really, really good when he’s been healthy in his second year. Does anything matter if Evan Mobley doesn’t get back to the level that he showed last year or even beyond that? The way that the Cavs were talking about him was mvp. The way that the Cavs were talking about it was top five player in the league, top 10 player in the league. And there just haven’t been too many signs of that. So it’s really, really difficult to wrap your arms around all of that combined, and it’s really, really difficult to figure out what you’re supposed to do with all of that information.
Jimmy Watkins: This is the second time in a week where Evan Mobley has finished the game with single digit shot attempts that happened nine times all of last season. Help. Help me out here. Like, what’s going on? What’s going on? This is. It’s supposed to be the opposite. And it kind of started the opposite. Ethan and I had a version of this conversation after the Raptors game last week. I was cool. Like, Evan Mobley this time last week was averaging like 20 points a game that’s gone down. I don’t really care about the points. I care about the shot attempts, how I’m seeing him attack the basket. Evan Mobley’s efficiency numbers have actually improved over the last week. I don’t care. I liked him better when they were lower. I did. I liked what we were talking about. We called them mistakes of aggression.
Jimmy Watkins: I like Evan Mobley missing open players because he was trying to get his own. I liked that. Now it seems to me that the Cavs, and I’m just guessing here, Chris, fill me in. It seems to me like the Cavs started Evan Mobley doing one thing, realized because they’re so. You know how much the Cavs love their numbers. Realized. Hmm. This isn’t optimal. And then were like, hey, remember what we were telling you to do before? Nevermind. And then Evan Mobley gets the ball in a game and he’s like
Chris Fedor: What am I supposed to do?
Jimmy Watkins: What am I supposed to do again? Like, I got two people. I got two people telling me different things in, in my head. Problem is they’re the same person. They’re just telling me different things. We just need to pick a lane here without a Mobley, and I. I was interested to keep going down. Like, what’s on the other side of those efficiency dips. We talked about this last year. This is what I was worried about last year when Kenny Atkinson first took over. Okay, you want to empower Evan Mobley. It’s going to be ugly sometimes. Do you have the stomach for that?
Jimmy Watkins: Does Donovan Mitchell have the stomach for that The answer through 15 games of year two, no. Emphatic no to the point where, like, now you’re. It’s still early. And I still think that on the other end of this, at some point this year, there’s going to be an awesome Evan Mobley stretch. But right now, like, it almost feels like you’re stunning his development.
Ethan Sands: I think that’s all interesting because obviously he didn’t have the offensive scoring performance that we wanted or expected from Evan Mobley, particularly with Giannis Antetokounmpo in the locker room. But to me, there were positives when it came to his creation and being an offensive focal point and still being able to distribute and start an offense. And I think that was, to Jimmy’s point, what the Cavs wanted him to do at the beginning of the season. And they’re kind of changing that. And you have to see him in like the half, roll him in the elbow, positioning, trying to construct offense from those positions on the floor and being successful, but also have stints where he would put the ball on the floor and simply lose it because he was trying to do too much or help side guard would come and take the ball away. Right. So you end the game with six assists, which is good for a seven footer, but you also end the game with six turnovers. So there’s this give and take that we’ve been, which should never happen. Most big men don’t make enough decisions to make six turnovers in a game.
Chris Fedor: Unless you’re Draymond Green and you’re the hub of an offense and you’re passing so much throughout the course of the game. Yeah. Or like bam. I guess Bam kind of has that role or did have that role in Miami. I agree. Like, 6 was pretty alarming, honestly.
Ethan Sands: I agree. And that’s why I’m saying there’s like this give and take with Evan Mobley and his development. And obviously, if you ask Kenny Atkinson, he’s going to continue to say there’s these Growing pains that we were expecting development. And Chris blatantly asked Kenny Atkinson today about switching the rotation to incorporate Donovan and Evan again. And we’ve had this conversation on the podcast for the last week or so now, and Kenny said, well, you kind of had to go away from that because Darius wasn’t in the lineup. So you had to split up Donovan and Evan to be, as Jimmy put it, most optimal when it comes to the offensive focal of this team. But also understanding that you have to just be able to maneuver the rotation to what is helping the Cavs in any given matchup or in any given game. And I think there’s definitely quite a questions that have not been answered. And there’s also questions about the rotations that Kenny Adinson has made early on in the season. But again, that’s this experimentation period that we’ve been talking about, and now this team is starting to make decisions and make changes to try and figure out what is working best. And Chris, you mentioned it to the subtexters today. It felt like the Cavs were going away from Larry Naz Jr. Who has struggled, and instead inserted Thomas Bryant, Nae’Qwan Tomlin. Guys getting more minutes on the back end of the rotation and seeing how they’re going to be able to impact. What have you seen from the beginning portion of the season and how Kenny Atkinson has maneuvered this rotation. And obviously, as he said, at some point today, they are in no point stuck in what they’re doing. Rotation wise. They’re still figuring things out as they go.
Chris Fedor: Yeah, I think the. The term that I would use is fluid. I. I think a lot of these things are fluid, and I think Kenny’s trying to figure them out. Okay, what’s it look like when Darius is back, when Darius isn’t out there? And I think the truth is, beyond the top seven, they’re kind of interchangeable because Dean has a place. I know fans get on Dean all the time, but Mr. Plus Minus has led the team in plus minus for the last two games, eight rebounds tonight, I’m telling you, like, he does winning things for this team, he does things for this team that they need that allow him to, like, blend into a variety of different lineups. And I think that’s part of the reason why Kenny keeps defaulting to Dean. All right, do I need him to play small forward? Okay, do I need a smaller big? All right, do I need somebody who’s going to go out there and rebound? All right, do I need somebody who’s going to go out there and space the floor. All right, like Dean can do a lot of different things that are helpful to this team and it’s clear that, that Kenny believes in him and trusts him. He comes in the first substitution right alongside Lonzo Ball. So obviously that, that could change when, when Max is back and he’s going to carve into some of those minutes and Jaylon Tyson’s going to be an option as well. But you know, for now we’re talking about this team right now. The top seven are there and they’re going to get their minutes, they’re going to get their playing time. And then beyond that, I do think that it’s fluid, I do think it’s interchangeable. Look, when Darius Garland’s not available, that means Craig Porter Jr. Has a place. He’s going to get consistent minutes. He’s probably going to come into the game right around the same time he, he’s going to be asked to do certain things. But If Larry Nance Jr. Is not going to play at a high level and if he’s not going to be a positive when he’s out there on the floor, then this team does have Nae’Qwan’s Onland and they believe in him and they do have Thomas Bryant and there’s a reason why they went out and brought in Thomas Bryant this off season. So I, I Tyrese Proctor, If Craig Porter Jr. Is not playing, if he’s not doing the things that Kenny wants him to do, there’s Tyrese Proctor as well. So I think a lot of these guys are going to get different points throughout the course of the season where Kenny leans into them a little bit more. But I don’t know that there’s going to be a level of consistency when it comes to their workload, when it comes to their shot attempts, when it comes to all of those different things. The other thing I think it’s fair to point out, Evan Mobley and Donovan Mitchell as, as a partnership have, have played more than any other two man grouping this year. But, but what we’re talking about here is the extended run of both of those guys together last year. If you looked at Donovan’s minutes and Evans minutes, they were very, very comparable. And Kenny did his best to try and keep those guys together as much as he possibly could to a point where there were a couple of games where Donovan played 36 minutes total and like 34 were with Evan or something along those lines. So it’s just not to the same level that it has been in the past, especially last year. Even though you know they’re playing plenty together. And when they’re on the floor together, the Cavs are outscoring the opponent by 10.5 points per 100 possessions. And that just shows you the kind of comfort that Evan has when he shares the floor with Donovan. The way that Donovan helps Evan makes him better, makes things easier on Evan. Not as much creation has to fall on him, not as much responsibility has to fall on him and stuff like that. So, you know, for all of those fans listening saying, wait a minute, Evan and Donovan were out there to start the fourth quarter together. For the second game in a row, Evan and Donovan are out there to start the game together. It’s just not for the long, extended stretches that it was last year. And that can make things difficult on Evan especially. So I just think, you know, there are certain things that Kenny wants to tap into with his lineups and with his rotations, but there are still some things that he’s trying to figure out. And some of these things are going to be fluid. And if you are somebody who’s toward the back end of the depth chart, like, I wouldn’t get overly comfortable. You still have to have this mentality of I’ve got to produce or somebody else on this team will get an opportunity. Because the Cavs believe in Nae’Qwan Tomlin, they believe in Thomas Bryant, they believe in Tyrese Proctor, they believe in Craig Porter Jr. It’s not the same level of belief as some of these top guys that they have, but if somebody is not getting the job done, Kenny has shown an adaptability and he’s shown a willingness to go away from guys and give other guys an opportunity. And I think tonight showed that highlighted that with Larry Nance Jr. Not getting any. Any playing time whatsoever of Jared Allen. I mean, Jared Allen is fourth quarterback is a spectator in fourth quarters. That’s just going to keep happening over and over and over again.
Jimmy Watkins: Nae’Qwan Tomlin played six minutes in the fourth quarter tonight. Thomas Bryant played three minutes in the fourth quarter tonight. It’s starting to smell like trade in here to me with Jared Allen.
Chris Fedor: Jarrett played zero in the fourth quarter tonight.
Jimmy Watkins: That’s what I’m saying. Because it’s one thing for it to be a matchup, B based thing. Okay, Evan Mobile. You want Evan Mobile. As you’re loan big out there, it’s another thing for you to deliberately choose other big men over journey like this. This is. We’re getting to the point now where we’re looking at ourselves here, taking stock of the Cavs and it’s like, what are you paying this guy $20 million a year to do again? If Nae’Qwan Tomlin and Thomas Bryant can fill his role on a given night. Of course, there are nights where Jared Allen’s awesome and looks worth every bit of that, of that money.
Chris Fedor: I thought he was really good tonight.
Jimmy Watkins: In the second stint in particular. Yeah, there was, there was no that. I said this on subtext too. This moment where right before Jared goes in, Kenny walked up to him and he gave him like a, like a little clap and maybe like a little jab to him and like, was a little fiery with him. And Jarrett responded first, like within seconds of checking into the game, blocked Giannis from behind, grabbed a couple rebounds, drew fouls, got a put back. He had like six points in like two and a half minutes. Then what happens in the third quarter when you’re just getting cardio at this point? Like, it’s not just a what do we pay you for thing anymore. We’re meeting this sweet spot where it’s like, how much longer is Jared Allen valuable in a trade? I think we’ve already, we’ve already lost the point where the Cavs were years ago. Well, you have to blow us away. And other teams were like, okay, we’re not going to do that. I feel like now I think the Cavs would be like, if we get a rotation level, not a rotation, like a Jared Allen ish player at another position. Bang my line.
Chris Fedor: They talk about him a certain kind of way, right? And they always say that the view of Jarrett from the outside just doesn’t match the value that the organization places on him. And it’s like, when these things continue to happen, those words ring hollow. He’s a member of your core four, but you don’t treat him like a member of your core four. He’s one of your more impactful players in terms of plus, minus, in terms of on off differential, in terms of what your win loss record is as an organization, when he plays, when he doesn’t play. But you don’t treat him like that. So if you’re not going to treat him like that, why would people view him like that? I mean, it is outrageous. And I asked Kenny multiple times during the recent road trip, I said, hey, look, like Jared’s one of your least used players in the fourth quarter. Why? What is going into that decision? And he even said in his response that night in Miami, he said, jarrett’s one of our foremost important players. I have to start treating him that way. And I Have to remind myself of that sometimes. That was in Miami. That was last week. What has happened since then? There was one time, one time in the fourth quarter where he was like, all right, Miami’s going small. You know, maybe I could go small, but let’s go big instead. Let’s be proactive. Let’s do our thing. And sure, it was great in the fourth quarter. He was great. Scored 30 and 10 for the game. And if it wasn’t for Craig Porter Jr. The night that Jarrett. The night that Jared scores 30 and 10 and he dominates. Kenny Atkinson’s in the locker room, and he’s talking to the guys about a great win against Miami. Under man, backs against the wall. First game of a back to back, and he’s given this big speech. He’s talking about a heroic effort. And Jared Allen’s sitting right next to Kenny Atkinson, probably thinking, hey, all right. He’s talking about me. Yes. Finally, I’m about to get the recognition that I deserve. I just had 30 and 10, 30 and 10. And then all of a sudden, Kenny’s like, Craig Porter Jr. Heroic effort. Stand up. And Jared’s probably like, what the hell do I have to do around here? Are you kidding me?
Chris Fedor: So beyond that game where Kenny went back to him in the fourth quarter and Jarrett delivered the way that Kenny needed, the way that this team needed, he’s been a ghost in the fourth quarter, and it hasn’t been his fault now. They’ve just been putting him on the bench because the rotation has slightly changed a little bit at the start of the fourth quarter. For two games in a row, Kenny has started with both Donovan and Evan. The other night. The other night against Memphis, Donovan and Evan played all 12 minutes. Tonight in the fourth quarter, Evan played all 12 minutes. And if you feel like you don’t want to play Evan and Jarrett together, then if you’re committed to that new rotation, and we’ll see if Kenny is. Is Jared ever gonna play in the fourth quarter again? Like, what circumstances would have to present themselves for Kenny to play Jared in the fourth quarter again? If. If that’s the rotation that he’s kind of starting to lean into a little bit more, sure, he could go to Jared and Evan together, just like the starting group, but he has gone on record multiple times saying with the way that the game is being played right now, the speed of the game, how much teams are downsizing, the amount of switching that we may want to do in fourth quarters, that doesn’t point to Jared Allen, guys. That points to. If Larry NANCE JR. Is effective. Maybe somebody with his skill set or Nae’Qwan Tomlin skill set or Dean Wade’s skill set and playing a quote unquote smaller lineup instead of both bigs together.
Ethan Sands: Okay guys, I gotta do my due diligence since we’re on this topic, because I was ready to go into how Lonzo Ball and Craig Porter Jr. Side by side is working even alongside Sam Merrill at points. But now we’re talking about Jared Allen and trades and stuff like this. And now we have to go into the conversation of hearing rumors around the NBA and how Anthony Davis was in reports and conversations with the Cavs at one point over the last few years. And I know we just mentioned like players that could take up the role of what Jared is doing. Does AD fall into that conversation? And yes, I am well aware that contractually this is nearly impossible to pull off because Jared Allen does not make enough. So you would have to package with other players and the Cavs don’t have any draft capital. All of this information is adequate. But I want to know what you guys, especially you, Chris, had been hearing about the Anthony Davis rumors and then also just how that could tie into the situation, if at all.
Chris Fedor: Well, all of that was before the Cavs became the only second apron team in the NBA. And now all of these new restrictions are on what they can do in terms of signings, in terms of trades, in terms of salary matching. They have to go down to the penny. It is very, very difficult in the situation that the Cavs are in to make any kind of trade. And when you’re talking about Anthony Davis, if you’re just talking about any high priced player in that kind of realm, however you want to characterize the guy, top 20 player, top 25, top 30, whatever it is, however you view that guy, that is going to be very, very difficult for the Cavs to pull off. So I think if, if they’re going to make any kind of move at the trade deadline, if they feel like some kind of roster enhancement is required, they’re gonna have to set their sights lower and fans are going to have to set their sights lower. And just think about the seventh man in a rotation, maybe the sixth man in a rotation, somebody that can be a starter, quality player, but probably on this team more of a backup type player, Anthony Davis, the way that you’d have to change your offense, the salary that he commands, the limitations on what the Cavs can do in a trade, all of that stuff just makes it very, very for this team that has championship aspirations and believes in its roster to a pretty high degree, if we’re being honest about it. To see them make a significant shakeup at the trade deadline would be surprising to me. Unless, like, there are alarming things that continue to pop up over and over and over again that the Cavs say, well, we got to do something different. We’ve got to do some kind of significant alteration to this roster. If the Cavs. Look, this is just a hypothetical, okay? But if the Cavs are looking down the road and February is coming, and they’re not seeing the evolution of Evan Mobley, if they’re not seeing a guy that they think may be ready for this bigger role, more responsibility, higher usage, ready for what playoff basketball demands, and then the league itself becomes more open for a variety of reasons, okay, then maybe they say, all right, we got a shot here. Let’s shake things up a little bit. Let’s see what we can do under the salary cap limitations that we’re working with in terms of trade activity. But short of something like that, I just think if this team’s going to make a drastic move, it’s going to happen. It’s more likely to happen in the off season when they get the result of. Of this season in particular. But, you know, there are a number of different teams that. That have been interested in Anthony Davis over the last couple of years, and Anthony Davis is the type of player with the kind of skill set that would be attractive to the Cavs, that would be attractive to Kenny Atkinson and the kind of stuff, style that he wants to play, he can play inside, outside. And the difference is he’s further along in his development in his career arc, and he’s done things to a higher level than, say, somebody like Evan Mobley or Jared Allen. If you’re talking about trying to find Robin to Donovan Mitchell’s Batman, you know, and it makes sense that the Cavs would be interested in Anthony Davis. When you’re competing for a championship, you know, at the very least, that that dude can be Robin. You’ve seen it. You’ve seen it be good enough to win a championship in the right circumstances.
Jimmy Watkins: One other key difference between Jared Allen and Evan Mobley and Anthony Davis is that they play basketball games, and Anthony Davis doesn’t play basketball games.
Chris Fedor: He’s got a calf issue.
Jimmy Watkins: And I’m telling you, I’m telling people right now, be prepared to be blown away by how underwhelming the Anthony Davis trade package is. Be prepared for that, because Anthony Davis is, I think, about to be 33 years old. Anthony Davis is due a contract extension next summer. Anthony Davis, as previously mentioned, doesn’t play a lot of basketball. Who in their right mind is signing up to pay this dude a max extension? I freaking love Anthony Davis. Chris was saying top 25, top 20, top 30? How about top 15? I, I love Anthony Davis. I think he’s an incredible basketball player. That’s just an aside. I think people are going to be stunned by what the Mavericks end up having to accept for Anthony Davis. The other thing is I, I kind of agree. It’s. It’s just like logistically difficult for the Cavs to make a trade during the season. But I will keep coming back to. Okay, we need some, we need something, A major alarm to go up. A major red flag to be showing. It’s early. This is not quite a prolonged trend yet. I would classify Jared Allen not being able to play fourth quarters as alarming to me. The kind of player they get in return. Well, it might not be Pete. Jared Allen, in a vacuum, could he play some fourth quarter minutes? Perhaps?
Ethan Sands: I don’t know.
Jimmy Watkins: I’m just simple, like sixth, seventh man who has starter level talents, who can maybe close some games for you, who can give you a different shape in the playoffs, who. You don’t have to question what you’re getting, like reliability. Isn’t this so ironic? The Cavs have been telling us for years, Mr. Dependable Ironman, Jared Allen. JB Biggerstaff used to say, I sleep better at night knowing that Jared Allen is on my run. And you know what? It’s true for most of the season, the sample size getting long now in the playoffs of Jared Allen, no showing at key times. And now Kenny Atkins is like, this is his guy. Yeah, Kenny Atkinson is like a ground floor Jared Allen guy. He once told Jared Allen that the Brooklyn Nets would end up retiring his jersey. By the way, whose jersey are the Brooklyn Nets ever going to retire? That’s an interesting off season. Pot like Cam Thomas might end up being the all time leading scorer in Brooklyn Nets franchise history. Okay, if we don’t count any of the New Jersey stuff.
Chris Fedor: Regardless, bringing this back, if you’re a Cavs fan and you’re thinking in any way about any kind of Jared Allen trades, and I’m not saying all of these players are a fit or all of these other teams would want Jared Allen, but the first thing that you have to do is you have to go to the salaries of the NBA and find somebody that makes around $20 million annually. So you’re talking about Kentavius, Caldwell Pope, you’re talking about Malik Monk, Santi Aldama. If the Clippers collapse like Bogdan Bogdanovich, like those types of players, and I’m not saying again, all of those would be a fit for the Cavs, and I’m not saying that all of those teams would be a fit for Jericho, but that’s the type of player that you’d be looking at. Those are the guys right around that $20 million mark that if the Cavs are going to pull off a trade and it’s very, very complicated with their salary situation, that’s what you’re looking at.
Ethan Sands: And guys, Nae’Qwan Tomlin’s impact has been tremendous through the first 15 games of the season. Obviously we’ve seen some flashes of what he’s capable of, his energy, his drive. Tonight he was literally diving on the floor to get a jump ball car. That was the exact epitome of the type of player that he is. The gritty style, the hungry style, the, the prideful style that he plays with. But Kenny Atkinson also did reference like maybe Nae’Qwan Tomlin gets playoff minutes. Well, to do that you would have to take him off a two way contract. And the Cavs, historically speaking, at least since I’ve been here, have reserved that spot for when they wanted to add in a buyout contract or someone like late season acquisition. And I think it would be interesting to see how much the Cavs value Nae’Qwan Tomlin. And obviously it would be a great story in its own right because that would make what the third undrafted player to get a standard deal on this team. Craig Porter Jr. Dean Wade, Nadequan Tomlinson. Sam Marrow was 60th selection of his draft.
Chris Fedor: Don’t forget Lars Stevens. He was the one that started it all. That whole movement still a success story. Yeah, the whole player development success story. Undrafted into two way into standard NBA contracts for sure.
Ethan Sands: But for players still on the Cavs roster, I think it’s. And Chris, you’re absolutely right, that pipeline is important to this Cavs team. Particularly while we’re talking about this second apron dynamic and how hard it is to navigate that. And of course Sam Arrow just got a lengthy contract that Donovan Mitchell, Kenny Atkinson, the organization believes that he earned. But that also helps them in the development process because they knew how long they wanted to keep him. They probably are thinking about how he could replace Max Drew at some point if that situation comes down the line. They’re also thinking about these other guys. Craig Porter Jr. Can you take on some of the creation load if Darius Garland gets traded, Nae’Qwan Tomlin, if Jared Allen gets traded? There’s contingency plans for a lot of these players, in particular the ones that have the heftier contracts on the Cleveland Cavaliers. And I think that cannot go unnoticed or unsaid. And I think Kenny Atkinson pointing to Nae’Qwan Tomlin as a potential, potential for playoff minutes while he as a two way player is currently ineligible for those minutes, was interesting.
Chris Fedor: That’s the thing when it comes to Nae’Qwan, the thing that allows him to stand out is that it feels to me that there’s a certain kind of makeup for this basketball team. Some of the players push back on this and Craig Porter Jr. Kind of pushed back on this earlier tonight, but it feels like the Cavs are built on skill more so than anything, versatility. Nae’Qwan’s just all energy. So that stands out. That stands out compared to some of these other guys who have built their careers more like skill based things. And I think there’s a place for somebody like Nae’Qwan. I, I don’t know. It’s way too early for me to say in the playoff rotation. Is he going to be ready for that? Can he stay out of foul trouble? Can he limit the bad plays, the airballed threes, the, the baffling pass attempts, mishandling passes from his teammates? He’s still new to the game of basketball because he started so late. So going from what he was last year and what he was supposed to be at the start of this year into a bona fide rotation player, boy, that would be quite a development story. That would be quite a success story. I’m not ready to rule it out, but I’m also not ready to commit to that either. Just like I’m sure the Cavs are looking at it saying, work in progress, wait and see. But the energy that he brings and the activity that he brings is just different. If we’re looking at. When you get into a playoff series, sometimes you have to play small, sometimes you have to play big, sometimes you have to play fast, sometimes you have to play slow. The one thing that Nae’Qwan does at a higher level than anybody else. So if you’re looking for somebody different to bring something different, the thing that he does at a higher level than anybody else on this roster, that separates him even from Larry Nance Jr. Even from Dean Wade, the energy that he plays with, the activity that he brings to the floor for another team, that dude is annoying as Hell, to play against Gary Trent Jr that, that jump ball that you were talking about. Giannis looked at Gary Trent Jr. Like, dude, how did you not come up with that loose ball? How did you let him take that rebound from you? And there was another point where somebody got the rebound. It might have been Bobby Portis. Might have been. And Nae’Qwan’s just there with all of his limbs swinging back and forth, making a pass to his teammate difficult. That kind of stuff has a place. That kind of stuff separates you from some of your other teammates. We’ve talked in the past about specialists. Okay. If you’re going to a three point heavy lineup, what’s it going to look like? If you’re going to a super big lineup, what’s it going to look like? What’s your thing? What’s the thing that’s going to get you noticed? What’s the thing that’s going to get you playing time? Nae’Qwan’s thing is nobody else’s thing on this team. And that helps him. Again, I’m not ready to commit, but there is a place for him for sure, because of that energy, because of that level of activity that nobody else on this team matches. Not even Donovan Mitchell, not even Jared Allen, nobody else.
Ethan Sands: I have one name that I think while he might not offer the same skill set, Thomas Bryant, energy wise. Thomas Bryant, yes.
Chris Fedor: If we’re talking about his demand to the coaching staff to challenge a play, I’ve never seen anybody put that kind of energy toward it. That was hilarious.
Jimmy Watkins: Like Nae’Qwan Tomlin, he knows how to airball a three.
Ethan Sands: Kenny Atkinson also did admit that Thomas Bryant might have too much energy. He’s worried about him exerting too much energy on the bench that he won’t be able to compete in the game. Well, that has never been a problem for Thomas Bryant, thankfully. But I do think, and I wrote about this in an article for cleveland.com that came out this morning, actually, that Maquan Tomlin and Craig Porter Jr. Just have a different edge to them because they had to fight bite, claw to get to where they are, and they play with that kind of demeanor. And also for Craig Porter Jr. It’s also, he’s coming into a year after the season. He has a club option that the Cavs can either decide to pick up or not, and that decides whether or not he’s going to be an NBA point guard. Right. And the dream that he’s had, you can see it fading or you can see it come into fruition, and that kind of work ethic you see from behind the scenes is because of all of these things kind of combined. And as we mentioned, like, you have to have a different level of fearlessness, a different level of determination when you come into the NBA undrafted two way, then in the same season you get a standard contract. Like there’s levels to this. And I think, Chris, you’re absolutely right. Not only the Cavs, but I think the NBA are losing players or lacking players that have that kind of grip because there’s so many players now that are coming up through this AAU system, overtime elite and. And all these other things where like the access to the game of basketball in itself is diminishing only to players who have the resources to get that. And I think it’s interesting because of how the game of basketball, and you ask J.B. bickerstaff, you ask players around the league, they’re saying the old school style of the game is faded. But there are still players around the league, around the NBA, that play with that. And it’s because of their background, what they were taught, or it’s just innate. Because sometimes you see players like Nae’Qwan Tomlin, who didn’t grow up playing high school ball, didn’t grow up playing aau, grew up on the blacktop of Rucker park and all these parks around Harlem. You got to see that transition to college ball now to the NBA. And there’s a different level of desire and fearlessness that these guys play with because they simply don’t know anything else. This is their plan A. And plan A is all that they have. So with all that being said, that’ll wrap up today’s episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. But remember to become a Cavs insider and interact with Chris, me and Jimmy by subscribing to South. Thanks. Remember, we still have our hey Chris episode this week to handle, so send in your questions. But the only way to do so is by signing up for a 14 day free trial or visiting cleveland.com Cavs and clicking on the blue bar at the top of the page. If you don’t like it, that’s fine. All you have to do is text the word stop. It’s easy. But we can tell you that the people who sign up stick around because this is the best way to get insider coverage on the Cavs from me, Chris and and Jimmy. This isn’t just our podcast, it’s your podcast. And the only way to have your voice heard is through subtext. Y’ all be safe. We out.
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