CLEVELAND, Ohio — Welcome to this week’s edition of the Terry’s Talkin’ podcast, with cleveland.com columnist Terry Pluto and host David Campbell. In this episode, they talk about Bernie Kosar’s liver transplant this week and what he had to tell Terry in a phone call on Tuesday.
They also discuss the Browns, including Myles Garrett’s impressive first half of the season, and what’s next for Shedeur Sanders.
Also, they get into the Cavs, and how Evan Mobley can get his groove back; and trade thoughts on the Guardians and what the future might hold for Steven Kwan.
Highlights:
Bernie Kosar’s Successful Liver Transplant: Following a successful liver transplant, Bernie Kosar tells Terry he is in “great shape” and good spirits, with the initial critical 48 hours passing without signs of infection or rejection.
The Haslams’ Financial Support for Kosar: The Haslam family has been paying for Kosar’s health insurance for many years, a gesture that has saved him “millions of dollars” in medical expenses accumulated from numerous hospitalizations.
Myles Garrett’s Historic Performance: Myles Garrett is having an “epic” season, continuing to dominate with multiple sacks against the Ravens and showcasing extraordinary athleticism, putting him on pace to challenge the single-season sack record.
The Impact of the Upgraded Defensive Line: The addition of quality interior linemen like Mason Graham and Maliek Collins has been a key factor in Myles Garrett’s success, as it prevents quarterbacks from stepping up and forces offenses to account for multiple threats.
The Challenging Road for Shedeur Sanders: Rookie quarterback Shedeur Sanders is facing the tough reality of an NFL fifth-round pick, receiving very few first-team practice reps and adjusting to being a developmental player on a struggling team.
Rushing Young Quarterbacks: There is significant concern that the Browns are repeating a historical mistake of rushing an unprepared rookie quarterback, Shedeur Sanders, into a difficult situation, similar to past failures with players like Tim Couch and DeShone Kizer.
The Browns’ Flawed Quarterback Room Construction: The front office is criticized for trading away veteran Kenny Pickett, leaving the team without a seasoned backup and creating an inexperienced quarterback room similar to the flawed strategy of the 2017 winless season.
The Draft Pedigree of Top NFL Quarterbacks: Terry finds data showing that 18 of the top 20 NFL quarterbacks were first-round picks, highlighting the long odds against a fifth-round rookie like Shedeur Sanders becoming a franchise-altering starter.
Cavs’ Winning Record Masks Underlying Issues: Despite a 10-5 record, the Cavs’ performance is described as a “slog,” with an over-reliance on Donovan Mitchell due to injuries, a formula considered unsustainable for long-term success.
Evan Mobley’s game: How should Evan Mobley adjust after an up-and-down start? He appears to be struggling to find his offensive identity and go-to moves.
Jarrett Allen’s Uncertain Role with the Cavs: Allen’s future as part of the team’s “core four” is being questioned after being benched in the fourth quarter of multiple games, sparking debate about his long-term fit.
Steven Kwan’s Future in Cleveland: Can the Guardians afford to re-sign Gold Glover Steven Kwan? Or is a trade a strong possibility?
Why the Guardians Released Pitcher John Means: The decision to decline John Means’ $6 million option was likely due to poor performance, evidenced by his alarming 7.97 ERA and seven home runs allowed in a short AAA stint.
The Mechanics of Blocking Field Goals: A reader punches holes in the theory about moving the holder and kicker further back from 7 to 10 yards. He says it’s impractical as the longer snap time and wider angle would give edge rushers a significant advantage in blocking the kick.
Andre Szmyt’s Quietly Effective Season: After a disastrous first game, Browns kicker Andre Szmyt has stabilized the position, proving reliable by making 15 of his last 17 field goals and all extra points.
Here’s the podcast for this week:
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You can find previous podcasts below.
Also, a transcript of the podcast is below. As it is computer-generated, it may contain many spelling and grammar errors.
David Campbell: Talking Podcast. I’m David Kamman. Your host Terry Pluto is here. Hey, we should start with some really good news, Terry. I’m sure everybody can use some good news, but you talked this morning with Bernie Kozar, and he has gone through a lot of health issues, internal bleeding over the weekend. And why don’t you tell people what you learned this morning? I know you put a column up today as soon as you could, but some really good news.
Terry Pluto: Bernie came through this operation in great shape. Now, the first 48 hours, and that would have started early afternoon on Monday. So basically till early afternoon on Wednesday is the most critical point for that kind of transplant, because they’re going to either be infections or rejection. But so far, there’s no sign of either. Bernie told me doctors were amazed at how well he came through it, and especially because for several days before this, he. I mean, he had massive bleeding. I’m not going to get real graphic, but it was coming out of his nose and mouth and all kinds of places and, you know, infection all. They were dealing in a lot of things. One of his closest friends is a good friend of mine. They were afraid they were going to lose him because they couldn’t. Until they got the bleeding stop. They really couldn’t go in there to do the transplant because the guys has all this internal bleeding. Everything else, you cut them open to switch livers. I mean, you’re just asking for him to die on the table. I mean, that’s. That’s what was going on. And Saturday morning, the bleeding began to stop. And basically they were able to kind of. They went to different. They tried different procedures to stop the bleeding, and in the end, they did it Monday morning. And he is feeling tremendous. I mean, it was. He sounded like a different guy on the phone. He made a point, you know, because there was a lot of talk when he had the GoFundMe page. Well, what are the Haslams doing? And he made a point to say that the Haslams have been paying for his insurance for years and years, which they didn’t have to do because actually, I guess it would go to the. Through the players Association. I don’t know what it was. Anyway, he got a better deal of insurance through what the Haslams got him. And. And he said that they basically have saved him millions of dollars on different things because his close friend told me that Bernie had been in the hospital at least 20 times since January 1st. A lot of us didn’t know he was. Because of his bleeding and other issues. And, you Know that just millions of dollars, right? Yeah, yeah. Millions and millions of dollars. Yeah, man. Yeah, I know, I know. A couple years ago he was in Vegas for some kind of, you know, players association, their old time players thing. He got so super sick they had to rent a private jet to send them back to his specialist. I don’t know was it, uh, or whatever. And that was money there. And I think that’s something the Haslam’s help with. And so there just was a lot going on and he’s gonna still need home health care and all those kinds of things. It’s, it’s a real undertaking. But, you know, Bernie’s, he’s so optimistic, David. He really is. I’m just, I think he realizes I’m going to stay positive and say these things whether I’m feeling like it or not. Because what’s the other way to go? Just go down? I mean, there’s a thing. And for people who have been in recovery or whatever, kind of fake it till you make it. I’m going to act like a sober person until I become a sober. Even if I don’t feel like it. Well, I’m going to act like a person is recovering from these various health things until it starts to happen. Well, it has started to happen today.
David Campbell: Yeah. Just a couple of things there, as you said. Like he, you think sometimes, what can I do to help? And it just sounds like Bernie has been so uplifted by all the fan contact that he’s gotten and that has to be feeding that energy for him. Right. In terms of getting him through this emotionally, which is really important. I think the fans should be just, it’s, it makes a difference, right? When you get stuff like that.
Terry Pluto: Yeah. His close friend, Jim McCarthy, Benedictine guy like I, that, that’s one of the people that I talked to. And that’s why Bernie wanted all this stuff you see going up on social media. So Jim’s been helping him with all that to get it up there so he can communicate with the fans. They’re reading him stuff that comes in, all these things because you need this. I mean, when you’re bleeding all over the place, I mean, let’s be honest, you’re thinking this is it. And he said he was praying and he just felt that God was telling him, I’m quoting Bernie, that it’s not over. I’m not done with you. And you know, like in many ways, how Jimmy Donovan was such a inspiration and vehicle of support for people going through various forms of leukemia. And Jimmy’s 14 year battle with it. You know, Bernie. Now, this will be something. People with going through transplants, all that stuff. And knowing Bernie, I mean, he will love to preach the gospel of hope to them. So this is a great thing. And, you know, you go back to. Bernie is still the last great Browns quarterback. The last one. You know, he was here for eight years with the Browns. They went to the playoffs five times. Nothing else has come close since then. People from outside of Cleveland don’t understand why Bernie is so revered. Well, look at what happened. I mean, simple as that. And then really, you know, SIP had a couple good years. The 70s was not particularly good. You know, you had to go back to the 60s. So really, from the 60s on, I mean, the. You know, the best quarterback. I mean, really, he’s the best quarterback since Otto Graham and maybe the second best in Browns history.
David Campbell: Well, and beyond that, Terry, there’s a saying in soccer, like, when a team brings a player up from their teen academy, they say, he’s one of our own. He’s one of our own. That’s what Bernie was for Browns fans. He’s one of their own. Being from Youngstown and growing up a Browns fan, it was. It was a. It was a magical time for Browns fans.
Terry Pluto: And it’s a long story how he did it, but he really finagled the supplemental draft by graduating a year early. Went into it, and it’s in my book, Vintage Browns. How they. They. The team then worked on making a big trade to get him, and he wanted to play here. And so, I mean, that’s why the old line. Bernie chose us. He did, and he stayed here. And he’s. He was just. I mean, his break. His voice cracked a couple times of talking when he was thinking about emotionally of the. From the doctors and the nurses to the fans, just. I think, just to how well he felt. He didn’t believe the change would be so sudden, but I guess when your liver is not functioning and it starts to function, your whole body just comes around.
David Campbell: I did want to mention Terry, the. The. The Haslams and J.W. johnson, who Bernie mentioned, like, we get a lot of emails every week with fans just angry with ownership for how the Browns are playing. But this was taking care of Bernie was like a really kind and decent thing that the franchise did behind the scenes. Like, nobody really knew. Nobody just did it. And I think that was really a. Like I said, a kind gesture and something really cool that they did to kind of help take care of one.
Terry Pluto: One of their own reason. It came out now is because a lot. Why aren’t the Haslams there or whatever. So Bernie and, and Jim McCarthy, his friend and a couple others said, no, we need to go and you know Bernie, tell them what they’ve been doing so that fans know really good.
David Campbell: Well, the arrow is pointing up for Bernie and let’s hope it keeps heading that way. And I know that he’ll love to hear any fans or listeners of our pod here who would like to shoot him a note. So keep that positive energy coming.
Terry Pluto: So yeah, you could do it on the X account that they have going or, or I don’t know if he has a Facebook. I know he certainly has an X account.
David Campbell: All right, so while we’re talking Browns here, before we get into the footbally part of things, do you want to mention your upcoming appearances for your new Browns book, which is of course, why can’t this team just find a quarterback? And other thoughts on life in Brownstown. You got two signings this week and one of them is tonight on the 18th.
Terry Pluto: Yeah, it’s Tuesday. A lot of people have already signed up for the signing at and Talk. They’re going to do a talk at the Hudson Library. But it’s a really big library. It’s a big space. My wife Roberta is going to come. Sometimes she accompanies me on these things and she can really sing. And it’s funny now, sometimes I show up and she’s not there. They’ve some of the people go, well, where is she? Usually she has choir practice or something. So she’ll do one or two songs and we’ll meet fans and I’ll sign books and it’ll be a nice night. And then that’s tonight at 6:30 in Hudson. That’s Tuesday night. And then Thursday night, 6:30 via book signing at the Barnes and Noble in Youngstown. That’s Youngstown, Bernie’s hometown. 6:30 Thursday night.
David Campbell: All right, and then the other three on the list here, December 2nd, 6:30 at the Barnes & Noble in North Canton. December 4th at Visible Voice Books in Cleveland. That’s a Thursday night at 7. And then December 10th a signing only in Westlake at the Barnes and Noble. That’s going to be a Wednesday night at 6:30.
Terry Pluto: So I have not been the Visible Voice, but we had a story about. Yeah, that in our in the PD and online. That was an old theater they took over make into a coffee shop and a bookstore. My publisher David Gray went there, said it’s a fabulous venue for speaking and that. So I guess it’s like on 46th street and I forgot Lorraine or something. But look at a visible voice. And so I’m going to be there and I’m looking forward to that. Sorry about my voice and sinuses are just kicked in on me. But we’ll.
David Campbell: Oh, we’re doing okay. We’ll get through it.
Terry Pluto: Go through it. Yeah. Okay.
David Campbell: Okay. Where do you want to start with the Browns? Terry. A lot to go through Sunday after the loss to the Ravens. And we can start with Shador Sanders. We can start with Miles Garrett.
Terry Pluto: I don’t know.
David Campbell: I guess we should start with the quarterback situation.
Terry Pluto: Let’s start with. How about. Okay, this is ridiculous what he’s doing. I mean, if he df four sacks again.
David Campbell: Yeah.
Terry Pluto: And he what, five the last game or two games ago against the Jets.
David Campbell: Yep, five.
Terry Pluto: This is getting to the point now. I mean, it’s epic. It’s historic. And I know some fans wondered, well, you know, he came back just for the money and how would he be or whatever. Well, he’s been great and you know, he always gives these kind of cryptic comics and prep comments and press conferences. But Miles Garrett is not the Browns problem. It really isn’t. So that’s the deal there. I don’t know why they don’t put three guys on them. David. I’m serious. I would put three.
David Campbell: Well, I was very surprised. Like, the Ravens have always seemed to chip him with a tight end and in the first half they just single blocked him and let him run wild the other day. And then in the second half there was one play where they triple teamed him. Yeah, I mean, that was tight end.
Terry Pluto: And two lines after about the first sack. If you weren’t doing it already, it’s like, you know, foot when they have these, these big, huge guys, just stick them on the end of the line and make Miles at least have to, you know, go all the way around them along with somebody else. So that was again, you know, he chased down Lamar Jackson from behind. That’s not easy. That’s a shame. That defense played such a great game. I felt bad at that quarterback sneak at the end. Actually, I haven’t since looked at the replay of that. By any chance did you look at it, David? Because I just saw it during the game.
David Campbell: But oh yeah, I’ve seen it. I mean, the player Andrews just kind of spun out. I think it was called Hurricane Iri Harris, our colleague went to the Ravens post game and kind of got the lowdown on that. But we’ve seen them run that kind of quarterback sneak with Andrews over the years, and they just put a. They put a spin on it. No pun intended.
Terry Pluto: Yeah.
David Campbell: The Browns were loaded up to stop the plunge up the middle, and they went around the end. It was a great call.
Terry Pluto: Yep. And there was nobody back there. Greg Williams. Remember Greg Williams used to play a guy like 25 or 140 yards?
David Campbell: Yeah. The little peppers used to stand 25.
Terry Pluto: The angel, the guardian angel. Well, the angel was up on the line with everybody else, so.
David Campbell: So I want to go back to Garrett. There’s a data analyst on Social named Marcus Mosher, M O S H E R if you want to check him out. I thought this was interesting, Terry, and I haven’t seen a lot of people talking about this, especially nationally, but the quality of the defensive line around Miles Garrett, I think is having an impact. And what Marcus says is he. He’s. He’s writing about how Miles Garrett’s pass rush win rate is 27.8% this season. Right. And he’s got the 15 sacks, and this is exactly what he did in 2023 when he had 14 sacks. So. So he’s winning at the same. But he’s. He’s probably being helped also by the interior of this line, which is really beefed up with Graham and, you know, Collins and Malik Collins, I guess I.
Terry Pluto: Have been told, is having a Pro bowl year. I don’t know enough about the interior alignment to judge, but somebody who didn’t really have a, as they say, a dog in that hunt or whatever just told me that in passing. And so I’ll take their word for it, you know, and have a Mason Graham, I’m sure helps. And really, whether it’s Alex Wright or they’ve gotten even good play on the other defensive end.
David Campbell: So the narrative we’re gonna have to watch here, Terry, is whether Myles Garrett will break the single season sack record, which is 22 and a half by Michael Strahan and TJ Watt. There’s a lot of people still upset that Strahan got that extra sack when Brett Favre went down like a sack of potatoes that one year. But anyway, he’s within reach of that with 15 right now, and there’s a lot of games left, so lots of time for him to get that record, and I’m sure that’s something he would want. And he’s. He’s for another defensive player of the year award, so anything else on Miles, I don’t know.
Terry Pluto: That’ll do it. All right. We wanted to start with good stuff.
David Campbell: There you go. All right, the quarterback situation. Terry, you wrote a column about Shador Sanders and just how far he had to come and how kind of out of place he must have felt coming into the season because of what he’s done in the past, the way, you know, places he’s played and things like that. Why don’t you talk about your column for a second? We’ll delve into Shador Sanders here for a minute.
Terry Pluto: Yeah, there’s two elements to the story. The first is Shador’s background. Then second is life of a backup quarterback. Number one is Shador is basically only played for his father. His father was his offensive coordinator in high school. His father was the head coach, Jackson State and at Colorado. And his father also was his agent who mishandled the draft, I may add. You know that in terms of telling, I mean, you look at that back at this and go, why are you telling Philadelphia and Baltimore not to draft your kid? I mean, one of the dumbest things said, and I’m not saying he is, but just we say these things sometimes when we’re parents about our kids. We don’t think it through, like you said. Well, he told Baltimore not to take.
David Campbell: Because of Lamar Jackson. They didn’t want.
Terry Pluto: Yeah, because I don’t want to be him behind my Lamar Jackson for the next 10 years. That was the quote I was looking for in my brain, right? And I’m sitting there going 10 years, who ends up being a backup quarterback with the same team for 10 years. Secondly, Lamar does get hurt. Thirdly, you’re with the team that has only had basically two quarterbacks in the last 15 years, Joe Flacco and Lamar Jackson. And neither one of them were considered these prime prospects. Yes, they were first round picks, Platco in the middle of the first, and Jackson was the last pick in 2018 in the draft. But still, it wasn’t like they brought in these guys and they thrived in Baltimore. So excuse me, you know, and Philly, okay, they got Jalen hurts or whatever. That’s not a bad place to be either. But see, that’s. There’s mishandled things, so. But what I’m saying is this, that he was always at exalted status. I doubt anybody ever pressured him to win a job in high school or college or anywhere else. He came in as the star quarterback and the anointed one and he was used to that. Then the draft comes, he goes in the fifth round and all of a sudden he finds out what life is like for a fifth round draft pick. As A backup. And what about that, David?
David Campbell: Well, I’ve been trying to think about other. If you plugged in any other fifth round draft pick.
Terry Pluto: Yeah.
David Campbell: Whether we would be having this discussion right now.
Terry Pluto: You wouldn’t.
David Campbell: Here’s what I’m afraid of, Terry. Like, I’m not going to try and tell people who to cheer for or who they should be excited about, but I’m thinking back to when Deion Sanders went to coach at Colorado, right. And he brought Chidor with him and he brought Hunter with him from Jackson State and hype around the Colorado football program. It was like a rebirth. And it was really cool to see. Like, there was excitement, they had some potential again. But, like, people were flying from all over the country to be on the sidelines at Colorado games to watch them beat Colorado State in overtime, like on a Saturday night at 10:30. And it’s just like the hype so far exceeded the foundation of what the Colorado football program was, that it just. It just felt like so much circus around everything. And now you look, it’s. They haven’t recruited well since Deion has arrived there. They’re 3 and 7 this season, and I think they’re like 1 in 6 in the Big 12. They’re almost in last place. And I don’t want to see that same thing happen to Shadour Sanders because I do think he’s got talent and he’s got an arm. He’s got the stature to be a starter in the league.
Terry Pluto: He.
David Campbell: And you’ve written this a lot, Terry. He needs time and people need to be patient with him. And it was interesting the other day, Shador went out of his way to say, like, listen, don’t be, don’t be giving Dylan Gabriel a hard time to cheer for me. Like, that’s not helping the team. And in the same way I would kind of say, like, listen, stop heaping all this hype and just rushed expectations on Dion, I mean, on Chador, because that’s not helping him, I don’t, I don’t think. And he needs patience. Like, he, he needs time to grow into this job. And he’s going to be playing Sunday, I think, against the Raiders. And so he doesn’t have a lot of time, but just like, temper the expectations, let him learn how to be a professional quarterback, if I could. That’s kind of my take on it right now.
Terry Pluto: So the other thing, the fact is, they were not setting him up to fail because he didn’t get a whole bunch of reps with the first team. Luke McCowan posted a thing on X Brian Hoyer guys were just saying this is how it rolls. Once the season starts, the starter gets the just about all the reps unless he’s somebody like Joe Flacco or Tom Brady. I heard an interview with Brian Hoyer and he said when he was backing up Brady, some weeks Brady said I’m taking all the reps, I’m good. And other weeks Brady said I’m all beat up. You got, you got Wednesday. And he said that’s what it. But it’s like it was up to Tom to decide. But when you’re a young player, Luke McCollum and I use this in my column. Who was a fourth round pick. I forgot about him even being with the Browns. He was in 2005. He was a fourth round pick. It’s almost like a Sanders thing. They started the year with Jeff Garcia. He got hurt. They had Kelly Holcomb. He got hurt. Next, you know, Luke’s in there, he’s starting four games. He hadn’t taken any reps starters at all. And of course, in true Browns fashion, with a mid round pick starting as a rookie, he gets his brains beat it, you know, and that could be DeShawn Kaiser or even a top pick such as Tim Couch. I mean that’s one of the themes in my book. I’m just never. It’s like you look at the same stuff over and over. You see the mishandling of quarterbacks and the way Chadour is right now, the way he reacts to the Russian thing he did at Colorado. You know, he runs backwards. He was sacked 92 times over the last two years, more than anybody else in Division One. The lead on my column today is I moaned when the Browns drafted him. And not because I’m down on Chador, but it’s like I’ve seen this horror movie before and I know what’s going to happen. There’s going to be pressure to put him in. He’s not ready to go and he’s not with a good team. It’s a 3 and 14 team and the original plan of having these two veterans and all this stuff, well, that lasted about four games for Flacco and they. I’m still confused on why they were such a hurry to get rid of Pickett. Just what they need, a fifth.
David Campbell: Yeah, I wanted to ask you about that, Terry. So Dan Lobby, our colleague, he’s been doing these 10 Tuesday takes every weekend. One of them is today is that the Browns blew the quarterback derby.
Terry Pluto: Yeah.
David Campbell: This year the Browns like Usually they have a starter and then a mix of a young guy and a veteran. Right. Like, it’s kind of layered in terms of experience. And they went into the season with nobody experienced. I mean, you know, Flacco, but they got rid of him right away. And now they have two rookies and a guy and Bailey Zappi on the practice squad. There’s nobody. And again, Kevin Stefanski and his staff know how to coach quarterbacks, right? I don’t think there’s any doubt about that. But there’s a difference between that and having a Joe Flacco in the room or having a Jacoby Brissette in the room. Somebody who’s been around the league and can show these guys how to be a pro quarterback. I think that’s a setup, right?
Terry Pluto: Is it 17, 2017 all over again. That was Kaiser, that was Cody Kessler, and that was Kevin Hogan. They had a quarterback room where nobody had ever won an NFL game and it looked like it. The interesting thing there, that was also the year they traded for Brock Oswer. And this is another thing between Hugh Jackson and the front office. Hugh didn’t like Osweiler at all. And the front office said, let him take a beating for a while. Nobody says Kaiser’s his prime prospect. And Hugh says something very similar that Chris Palmer said way back when the plan was to play Ty Detmer several games to let Tim Couch get going. Well, he’s going to be my quarterback anyway, so he might as well just put him in there and go. Well, that’s like saying, we know he’s going to go to law school, so we’ll even forget getting an undergrad degree. We’ll just take him after his sophomore year in high school. I’m sorry. I mean, really, what. There is a progression. We don’t know the answer to this, but we do know this. Patrick Mahomes basically sitting for a year didn’t hurt him becoming a Pro bowl quarterback and one of the best ever. Jordan Love did it for Andy. Andy Reid. And you know, he. I’ve heard him say, wishes he would have played, but he also appreciated what they did.
David Campbell: Well, I do think Shedeur is going to be a good quarterback in this league. Maybe more than that. And yeah, I just think.
Terry Pluto: Here’s the thing. We don’t use the word.
David Campbell: You’ve written that word over and over, Terry.
Terry Pluto: Patience. We don’t know, David, because when you get off to a rocky start, like, for example, Deshaun Kaiser did, and some others, sometimes you don’t recover. You just don’t I mean, you bounce around, you get physically beat up and mentally destroyed. I mean, I’m just speaking from how it rolls. And it’s a. It’s a tough. That’s why I said I moaned because this was not a. I knew they weren’t going to put them in cold storage for a year. And I don’t mean negatively. I mean where you’re learning. And I also knew the hype and all that around because things aren’t going to go well. We want them to play. And I got 2 million social media followers. And to me, this is another example of the Browns who like shiny objects. And whether it’s Johnny Manziel or desean Watson or even like when they traded for Odell Beckham having to do with quarterbacks or that, you know, they don’t look at the kind of, the deeper picture of what, what is the plan like when they trade for Odell Beckham. He had missed 16 of the previous 32 games with significant leg injuries for a guy that relies on his legs. But we got to get this guy in here. He’ll be fabulous. He’ll be with it. With Baker Mayfield all. Johnny Manziel off the Browns draft board because of the off the field stuff with drugs and alcohol. Joe Banner taking him off, but they take him anyway. After Banner is fired, you know, we just go on. Shador is dropping like crazy. You already have T.R. now, if you hadn’t taken Dylan in the third round and you were going to have Pickett and Joe. Well, sure. Take, take, take, take the kid from Colorado, then he’s in there with two pros and you know, you let him learn and see where it is. It may. And by the way, if he’s an honor student and thrives early, he’ll get a chance. I mean, I always, I kept telling everybody the Browns have played nine quarterbacks in the last two years. You don’t think the kid’s going to play? They’ll be dragging guys out of the stands again. I mean, we’re already on three, correct?
David Campbell: Yeah.
Terry Pluto: Are we at game 10?
David Campbell: Yes.
Terry Pluto: Seven more to go, right? Bailey’s happy. Keep that arm loose, baby. I don’t mean that, but I’m just saying that’s how it, it rolls here in this town.
David Campbell: And so am I being, my being. So Deshaun Watson is around, obviously, but he’s not practicing. I’m not, I’m not this layering of the court. No, no. Here’s what I’m getting at, Terry. Like, Deshaun Watson is a Veteran quarterback in the room, but he’s not practicing. A lot of people say, oh, well, they have desean to help these guys learn the ropes. But you’re not next to a guy in the. In the line to throw footballs. You’re missing that on the field interaction, that his practice window hasn’t been opened yet. So I’m not. I’m not out of line and saying.
Terry Pluto: I’m not going down that line. Yeah, I get it.
David Campbell: But no, I mean, he’s a veteran quarterback who. And I just wanted to make sure I wasn’t being unfair by saying I don’t feel like they’ve layered the quarterbacks very well this season.
Terry Pluto: No, they haven’t. And see, I was intrigued by. All right, if you want to play Pickett, you got Joe around. You could kind of go, you know, they said they wouldn’t want to go with four quarterbacks in the beginning. Why not? You know, why not see how this goes? And then you would have had, okay, Flacco. You get rid of him after a couple games, you got Pickett. Then you’re not rushing into action with these kids. I mean, who said Dylan Gabriel has to play?
David Campbell: Nobody.
Terry Pluto: Yeah.
David Campbell: I mean, to be honest, play six years of college football, so.
Terry Pluto: But still, I mean, just, you know that. I mean, there’s. I’ve got it in my newsletter and I’m not gonna give you all that, but I went through the top 20 quarterbacks. Quarterback rating via ESPN. How many were picked in the first round? Dave Campbell.
David Campbell: Wow. That’s a really good question. I’m gonna say 10, 18.
Terry Pluto: Really? You’ll get to read to get great stat. Yes.
David Campbell: Go to cleveland.com Pluto go to the blue bar at the top. You can sign up for serious analysis.
Terry Pluto: I would have guessed about 80% because somebody had told me that figure no higher. And I break it down even where they were picked, top five, top ten, etc. You know, we. We. The big. The big outlier is Dak Prescott. Fourth round pick. You know, you hear about Brock Purdy. Now, Purdy’s not in that list because he was hurt. You know, he only played three games this year, so you could throw him in. But there are guys that were number one picks and some of them the.
David Campbell: Brock Purdy and Dak was why I didn’t guess more than 10 because those guys have become. But then who was so prominent? It’s like, oh, they weren’t first rounders, so I probably overcompensated. But 18 is important.
Terry Pluto: Who else? That’s the thing.
David Campbell: Yeah.
Terry Pluto: And a lot of your backups are also former first round picks. Yes, there’s Jacoby Brissette and a couple others. Kind of these career third to fifth round guys that bounce around. But for the, you know, Jameis Winston, the number one pick, he’s, you know, he’s a career backup. And you go around the league and look to see that most of those guys are your top picks. That’s just a fact. I mean, we go back. Oh, Brian Seif. Okay, fine. How about this? Bernie Kozar would have been the number one pick in that draft. He was the number one pick. You know, there. Let’s just get, let’s get real. I mean, your best quarter. Who’s the best quarterback right now, would you say? Let’s, let’s say the best three or four quarterbacks. Just name.
David Campbell: Yeah, I mean Patrick Mahomes, Josh Allen.
Terry Pluto: He went 10th, Josh went seventh.
David Campbell: Who else would I put in that group?
Terry Pluto: Maybe Herbert from the Charger was six, number six pick.
David Campbell: And Lamar, you mentioned him already.
Terry Pluto: Yeah, he’s the outlier at 32. Yeah. Baker. Baker was number one. Golf was number one.
David Campbell: Jason Stafford was the first rounder.
Terry Pluto: Stafford was a first rounder. Derek Drake, May 3rd, number three, three pick overall. Jaden Daniels, number two.
David Campbell: Well, now we know and everybody knew this going in, but the Browns have two first round picks next year and that’s, that’s probably why they want to make sure they’ll take two quarterbacks in the first round. They might.
Terry Pluto: You never have enough.
David Campbell: And they are up to number two in the, in the draft after last week’s loss. Terry, the number two, number two spot with their own pick. And they also have Jacksonville, so. So Terry, you occasionally do a thing where you declare something, a something, something, free zone.
Terry Pluto: Yeah.
David Campbell: And we have an email that’s kind of like that from Carl Carlson. And Carl lives in Candia, New Hampshire. And he says, hey, Terry and David. A few Browns observations, thankfully devoid of Gabriel or Sanders takes. So it’s a Gabriel Sanders free zone. Here’s what Carl says. Number one. With a competent offense, meaning ranked in the high teens, this team would be six and four and leading the division. Probably true. Right?
Terry Pluto: Yeah. I mean, we have to go back and look, say you were averaging. I think the average team scores like 22 points. Be interesting to see. It’s hard to, to equate the whole thing because when you. It’s like Baltimore had I think 23 points on Sunday, but some of that was just directly attributed to. You’re just out there at the end of the game forever.
David Campbell: I mean, be in the mix, they’d be in the mix.
Terry Pluto: Yeah. The interesting thing like Roberta texted me started the third quarter. She was just kind of doing some other stuff in truck and tracking the game on the phone. Periodically she goes up, the defense is going to get worn down. How about that?
David Campbell: See that coming?
Terry Pluto: You can even see it on your phone when you’re not watching the game.
David Campbell: All right, back to Carl’s email. He says, number two, the offense is incompetent because of the utter failure to take care of the three most important positions. Quarterback, left tackle and wide. Receiver. Number three, whiffing on Jedrick Wills was a big domino. I think with a solid, if unspectacular Wills, then Flacco and in turn Judy would have provided enough to get this offense averaging in the low 20s per game. Why the Browns did not draft one of the remaining tackles after New England took Will Campbell is perplexing. Membu and Banks were both available. As we went through training camp, Terry said that the team needed to be watchable. And I agreed. By not prioritizing offense in the first round, they have failed miserably. And it seems that Barry and Stefanski will pay with their jobs. We shall see. About that. I’m not so sure, but that Tristan, that, that I was going to talk about Tristan Worfs, but the, the drafting of Jed Wills, who I don’t think is playing in the NFL this season.
Terry Pluto: From what I’ve seen, he got real bad and everything.
David Campbell: And that was a big one. I mean, he was a top 12 pick. And they. A few picks later, Tristan Wurfs went to the Buccaneers and I can see him in the hall of Fame someday. I think that. I think they would much rather have had Tristan Wurfs in that draft, but it’s easy to go back and look after the fact. But that was a big one. I think that Carl is right there. Anything else on Carl’s email?
Terry Pluto: Well, the other thing to keep in mind, there’s a reason the, the highest paid guys on the line are offensive tackles. And you had, you kept bringing back Conklin on these kind of like basically cheapo contracts after he, you know, got hurt. He had a big one originally and I kept getting hurt. And then you’re like acting like you’re surprised he gets hurt and the rest of them are, you know, the wild Jones gets hurt and they’re just guys that are floating around. You don’t find good left tackles on the street. It’s like you don’t Find good starting pitchers. You know, we use the thing about the O line and the bullpen as a, as a group. That’s correct. But you need a couple of good starting pitchers, too. It’s almost like a pitching staff, the O line. I was thinking about that. And you need, I would say, you know, two innings eaters at your tackle positions. You know, guys that go out there and they’re there all the time, you know, they don’t have to be Joe Thomas, but they have to be reasonable players and like say Conklin was before he began to get hurt. And they don’t have that. And then on top of that, so there it’s, it’s the pass rush comes in, you have inexperienced quarterbacks, all this kind of stuff. Great points.
David Campbell: And again, before I forget, if you do want to hit us with an email, thoughts, comments, questions about the podcast, it’s. Send it to sports cleveland.com in an email. Put Terry’s talking in the subject line. We’ll try and get it on an upcoming podcast. So. All right. I don’t, I don’t know. I don’t have much else on the Browns. Terry, anything else you wanted to delve into?
Terry Pluto: No, that’s. That’ll. We got plenty of time.
David Campbell: It’s true. We have several games left, so the next one will be on Sunday in Las Vegas. They are taking on the Raiders, and I think it’s a 405 kickoff.
Terry Pluto: Yep.
David Campbell: And we will talk about that next week. So. All right. We will get into the Cavaliers after we take this break. Right. Terry, there’s some things going on there, and this is crazy. Do you realize the Indiana Pacers are 1 in 13? No, I did not realize that until today. What happened?
Terry Pluto: I knew they were losing, but I mean, yeah, there’s losing and there’s one in 13.
David Campbell: Yeah, we’ll get into that and more when we return on Terry’s Talking. All right, we are back on Terry’s Talking. We’re going to talk some basketball here. Terry, Chris Fedor, our colleague, just put up a post this morning and I found this really funny, but the headline is, like, has the word slog in it because The Cavs are 10 and 5, they’re second in the East. But, like, it doesn’t feel right. Right. I just wanted to read this quote from Kenny Atkinson last night. He says it’s kind of like, is slug a word? Like, it’s a slug, a slog. What’s the word? Slog. A slug is an animal.
Terry Pluto: Right.
David Campbell: So it’s a slog. And we got to figure it out. So that’s the way Kenny’s feeling about the team. I thought that was really funny. He was going back and forth on slug and slog. But Chris’s story today is kind of examining. I mean, the Cavs are in second place right behind Detroit, and most teams might be happy with a 105 record, but this doesn’t feel right right now. How does it feel to you and what are you seeing, Terry?
Terry Pluto: Well, the remarkable thing is, given what they’ve gotten, two games out of Garland, no games out of Strews, the rest of the, you know, thing is just you take 10 and 5 right there. Now, Kenny, you know, is a purist. He wants the game played a certain way, the ball movement, just the beautiful basketball. Last year, I mean, he. He told me when I did a long column on him at the start of the season, he knew it was going to start slow. He knew it’d be difficult. He isn’t saying this, but here’s what I believe he means is so often they’re relying on Donovan to bail them out. And there’s a concern, yes, Donovan can average 30 points. You don’t want Donovan averaging 30 points. It takes too much out of him to do that, and especially in these fourth quarters that he’s having to kind of save the day. So I think that’s what he means. It’s kind of a slog. They’re having trouble. The other thing that’s happening is where they try to empower Mobley early in the year and have them shoot more or whatever. I think he’s lost exactly how he’s supposed to play offense.
David Campbell: What do you mean by that?
Terry Pluto: Like he was handling the ball and I. Kind of a lot. High usage early and now it’s like he’ll shoot these line drive three pointers. You don’t see him too much kind of going under the. Under the rim, you know, to go the little block he floats on the perimeter.
David Campbell: Yeah. So his numbers, Terry, from last year to this year, he’s averaging 34.2 minutes this year and was playing 30 last year. But his field goals are down this year. Per game, 6.6 for this season. It was 7.1 last season. Is, you know, that’s. Field goals made. I’m sorry. Field goal attempts per game are 14.2 this season and 12.8 last year. So he’s making less but shooting more, right?
Terry Pluto: Yes, that’s where I’m going. Yeah. Yeah.
David Campbell: And his points per game was 18.5 last season and 18.9 this time around. So he’s playing more minutes, but the efficiency hasn’t been there, which is exactly what you’re getting at, right?
Terry Pluto: And also I think just player is going to need, this is my shot. This is what I can go get points with. And I think he’s still sort of struggling with that. No, the guy’s a terrific player and he could rebound, he could defend all those things and maybe there was too much pressure put on. He has to be this, you know, future hall of Fame guy doing everything when you’re on a team with other gifted players, you know, who need the ball too. And I like the fact that he could bring up the ball at times against pressure or whatever to help the guards. I don’t like it that it’s always about he gets the ball off the board and goes. Now he’s kind of backed off with that. That we’ll see how it goes.
David Campbell: So. So let me ask you.
Terry Pluto: So, yeah, go ahead.
David Campbell: You watch a game and you’re like, all right, that’s what an Evan Mobley possession should look like, right?
Terry Pluto: Correct.
David Campbell: What would be an example of two or three things during a Cavs game where if you’re watching, you’re like, all right, that’s his game and that should be his two or three go to things. What do you want to see?
Terry Pluto: A really nice thing where he’s sort of on the baseline and he kind of dribbles into the middle of the lane about five to eight feet away and just rises up with that ball over his head and takes a nice little jump shot and makes it. It’s by the way, analytics hates that shot, but it’s good for him. I don’t like mid range shots, remember that.
David Campbell: Well, that’s what we’re talking about. What’s good for him now, right? That’s number one. I like.
Terry Pluto: That’s number one. Number two, he just needs to work on his jump hook a little more near the rim because he’s. He can run down and ends up with a smaller guy in his back. Jared Allen’s better at this than. Than Evan. And so then you can get him the ball, especially Alonzo ball is terrific at throwing the ball up the floor 40, 50ft to a guy in a fast break there and he just goes, go and score over him. I didn’t think I would say this, but if he set up, set up, not if he dribbles down and fires it, but if he set up for a three, he has a couple favorite spots. It’s pretty good. If he’s driving down and acting like he’s Steph Curry and firing one up, he’s going to wind it off the rim. So those are a couple of things there. And you don’t see many guys anymore, whether it’s Evan Mobley or Jared or whatnot, pounding the offensive boards to get rebounds. They’re available. I know a lot of the rebounds are long, but. But you’re tall and you’re long. So those are just some thoughts. Now, it would be interesting to really get there, the analytics to show where he’s scoring from, where he’s missing and all that. But my thought, I really like that little drive into the center of the lane where he takes that little jump shot. Watch that. And I have to admit, when he’s a stationary in some of those threes, he’s pretty good. And that that helps.
David Campbell: So just, you know, for some perspective here, like Kenny Atkinson said before the season, this was in Chris’s story today, too, that he needed 15 games before he could kind of see what he has. And he’s like, I think I’m gonna need 25.
Terry Pluto: Yeah.
David Campbell: But like, none of this is going to matter in April. So everything’s building toward April. But they want to do things where they’re not burning guys out like you said, Terry. So I. Let’s see how the next 10 games go here.
Terry Pluto: Is he playing 34 also?
David Campbell: Yeah. So his minutes have gone from 31.4 last season to 34.1 this season. And his, as you mentioned, Terry is scoring, has gone from 24 points to 30.9.
Terry Pluto: How many shot attempts per game?
David Campbell: Field goal attempts per game have gone from 18.6 last season to 20.4 this season.
Terry Pluto: 22 is a lot of shots. Yeah. I’m going to give you as a world be free story. So I’m covering the Cavs. My rookie year in the NBA worlds rolls with the Cavs and. And we’re talking. And afterwards I should actually shoot around with him. It was like, this is a whole different era. But anyway, so he says to me, you don’t know how hard it is, Pluto, to get 20 in the NBA.
David Campbell: And I said, you mean 20 shots or 20 points?
Terry Pluto: Yeah, I said points. He goes, no, bro, 20 shots. I mean, mom out there. Don’t you ever write this. I’m out there with Lonnie Shelton and Mel Turpin and Bagley and I got to get off 20 shots for us to win. You know how hard that is?
David Campbell: I can’t believe he said that. Did he never met A shot he would pass up that.
Terry Pluto: No, but. And you go back and look at that in this day and age, he would have been a superstar because a lot of what he did and they would have encouraged that because he was just ahead of his time. But his point was, when defenses are against you, it’s tough to get off shots because they’re double teaming. Sometimes they’re ping ponging you around, and we have to watch it. We. I would say in terms of if you’re coaching with the Cavs, you have to watch that Donovan, with his hamstrings and his calf muscles, you don’t want him getting hurt. What is different about this year than a couple years ago when Garland was hurt and The Cavs went 17 and eight without Garland, was they had Max Struus in the backcourt with Donovan. Max could handle the ball pretty well and everything. That’s not Sam Merrill’s forte. He can make the shots, but he doesn’t seem to really be a very good ball handler. And so. And sometimes I would like to see when Alonzo’s in there with him that Donovan defer more. Just give the ball to Lonzo and let him bring it up. Let him handle that because he’s so good of a passer. So those are minor things, but I’m looking at them. As you said, they’re 10 and 5. Here’s some of the things I’m excited about, is that you see that they are developing some young players off the bench who can really help or even, I would just say a bench group. And you know, Naquan Tom won from the summer league. You can see the energy he brings in defensively and that what Kenny has done is he’s realized rather than trying to make Craig Porter Jr. Kind of a classic point guard, it’s almost like just go out there and play. You play guard, score block shots, run around, just do these things you do and get in the grill. The guy bringing the ball up the floor and Porter is Craig Porter Jr.
David Campbell: Yeah, I’m sorry to interrupt you. I was just going to ask. Is he. So we’ve talked about. Kenny kind of challenged him this summer and said, you got to come back in better shape. You got to work on your skills and kind of elevate everything. Is this what you were hoping you would see from him coming. Coming into the season?
Terry Pluto: Yeah, I didn’t know if I would, but yeah. I mean, I love this guy from the moment because the poise he plays under control. He’s sh. Much better than I thought. He would from the outside, but it’s just, it’s hard to get the ball. I mean, Kenny made a mistake and he later admitted it with to a couple of us that he should have played Porter more in that Indiana series to help with the ball handling. Because if you notice, he doesn’t make a lot of turnovers. You know, he’s a strong guy and it’s hard to get away from Mark. Mark Bryant has helped them, Brian, that they have the big guy that’s come in. And so you see a lot of. I kind of like some scrambling units. Ball can go in there, get some rebounds. Larry Nance, to me right now, looks like Chris. Turns out he’s been hurt a little bit. I wonder why. He just didn’t seem to be as athletic as he was even a couple years ago. But maybe, maybe the injury was behind all that. But I like how there’s some of those young guys. You know, Merrill’s become a starter and that’s what you have to do when you’re a good team. Then you have to develop these other guys from your G league or off of waivers to be able to help and fill in.
David Campbell: All right, so there’s a big question I have to ask you, Terry, and you talked about Naquan Tomlin seeing minutes last night. I think he played six minutes in the fourth quarter last night and Thomas Bryant got in and Jared Allen did not play in the fourth quarter last night. And we’ve seen that in the past. So Chris Fedor, Ethan Sands, our podcast host for our Cavs podcast, Jimmy Watkins, they were on the post game podcast last night and they got into a discussion about whether Jared Allen is still part of the core four and that this could. There could be a trade in the works here. Do you think Jared Allen is still part of the core four? And what I mean by that is the four pillars of this team going forward, what is your sense in terms of whether he’s going to be here when the playoffs come? How do you feel?
Terry Pluto: I think that they’ll keep him because even if he isn’t, quote, one of the four core four, I mean, he makes less money than DeAndre Hunter. He’s the 88th highest paid player in the league. And he has the mentality that if they were to ask him to come off the bench, which has been my thing going all along, you’ve got him. You trade Allen. And what if Mobley gets hurt? What have you got?
David Campbell: Unproven.
Terry Pluto: We’re on a max contract. I would say it’s different, but Jared Allen helps you win. And if there are matchups or things where there are times where he doesn’t play in the fourth quarter, he is unselfish enough where he’s not going to, you know, drag the team down, even if he’s not happy about it. So, in other words, he is not. You could say he’s in the core four, but he’s the fifth highest paid player on the team.
David Campbell: Well, do you see. Can things go on the way they’re going? Do you think Jared Allen is happy with not playing in the fourth quarter? Is he going to be okay with this long term if it continues, or do you think. Do you see the Cavs changing how they use him?
Terry Pluto: I think it depends on who they’re. I think it depends on who they’re playing. I really do. And, you know, Naequan Tonquin, you know, he may come in and play well now, but he may be another time. You put him in there and he looks lost. He’s still a rookie, an undrafted rookie, so you don’t really want to, you know, count on that. And I’m just. I’ve always been big on Allen because of the contract situation. I mean, he did a couple of things the other night. It’s like he got the ball five feet from the basket and threw it to the corner. Will you shoot the ball? You shoot 70% from the field, you’re five feet from the basket. Don’t do that. Just put it in. That’s all very simple. And I. It’s an interesting concept, but I really believe that whether they keep them or trade, this. This whole thing is going to rest on how they get that backcourt going. Because you don’t want to wear out Donovan Mitchell. That is my big concern.
David Campbell: Yeah. And they’re gonna have to pull back on him. I think as some of these guys start to come back, that’s just gonna have to be.
Terry Pluto: They’re going, exactly. And they’re gonna have to figure out, you know, that’s again, where maybe Mobley, you get him more into. If they have all the video and all the stats to show all the sweet spots for Mobley and just put them in those situations. Show him. Maybe they have. Show him why, this is where you want to be. This is what works for you.
David Campbell: And just go to it.
Terry Pluto: Yeah.
David Campbell: Yeah. All right. Anything else on the calves, Terry?
Terry Pluto: No, I’m. To me, them being 10 and 5 at this point, I’m really happy with that. I don’t care if Kenny’s worried about slugs or slogs. Or whatever it is. And remember, early in the year was being clunky. I have to check this. But I believe they’re in the top three in steals and block shots this year. And that was one of the things they wanted to do was to really enhance. That’s what they call more the pressure thing of the game. And that’s coming from some of these younger guys playing more. And so I think that’s a big positive. So I’m, I’m encouraged by that. You know, the rebounding is still up and down and I know it drives Kenny nuts. I mean he does talk about it and that, but it’s really, it’s just good to see that. So I’m, I’m looking to get kind of see here if I’m correct on this and about the Steels and Cavs are fourth in blocks and well, that thing on steals I had is incorrect. So they’re not in the top five. So I don’t know what they are. But anyway.
David Campbell: Yeah, but I mean, you know, like you said 10 and 5 and I think everybody would agree their best basketball is ahead of them. So that’s not a big.
Terry Pluto: I think defense in terms of the pressure looks better to me. Before they were so good offensively and the game came so easy. When you’re scoring all the time, it’s easy to get lazy. And the other parts, the rebound and the defending.
David Campbell: All right, well, the Cavs are kind of wrapping up this kind of mini six game home stand here. They’re playing Houston on Wednesday night. They on Friday they have the Pacers, the one win Pacers, man. And then Sunday the 23rd, they’re taking on the Clippers. So then they’ll be on the road for a couple games next week on Monday and Friday.
Terry Pluto: So I know Halliburton’s out for the Pacers and they’ve had some others, but my goodness, 1 in 1 in 13.
David Campbell: Yeah, that’s a mystery. That’s the kind of start that really.
Terry Pluto: Maybe they make the playoffs anyway and Rick Wirtz is wonders again and gets Haliburton back from his Achilles at mid season or something. But oh my goodness.
David Campbell: All right, let’s talk some baseball, Terry. The kind of guardians related news from the weekend was Josh Naylor going back to the Mariners $92 million deal over five years, reuniting him with the Mariners and I think that locks them up through 2030, no trade clause. Did this surprise you or was this what you thought it might be, a.
Terry Pluto: Trade clause on that?
David Campbell: Yeah, absolutely.
Terry Pluto: Who were they bidding against? I’m serious.
David Campbell: Well, everything I’ve been reading and you know, he had a press conference.
Terry Pluto: It’s not disrespecting his year, but you know, Jose Ramirez gets a no Trey Claus. Josh Naylor. Well, I think he gets a no Trey Claus. I mean, just, I mean, Josh Naylor.
David Campbell: Had a good year, man. Like, and beyond that, we talked about the juice that he brings to your dugout.
Terry Pluto: Right.
David Campbell: And, and the way he kind of is a, you know, Kenny Atkinson talks about connectors on the court. I think Josh Naylor is a connector in the clubhouse.
Terry Pluto: Yeah.
David Campbell: And brings guys together, gets them excited, fires them up. I mean, that’s, there’s a, there’s value there. And I, I, you know, I, I think he’s not Aaron Judge, but he had a pretty good year. He was Luke Brock on the basis that’s.
Terry Pluto: Yeah, I mean 30 or 32 and steals. That was an incredible thing. He’ll be 33 when that contract’s over. And I have to admit with that body and that I would be concerned. That said, he came up big in the playoffs, as you said, he, his game kept growing and I’m sure the Guardians are shocked by what he did to that high of a level because last year, I mean, he hit, I think 30 homers, but he battled like 248 and he really struggled in the second half. He seemed to be tired. Now here will be the big challenge for Josh. He got in better shape. He was in his free agent year. Will you do it again? That’s going to be the key part for him. Now I got email, a couple emails. Well, if Seattle could afford to sign, you know, why can’t Cleveland? Seattle is a huge market. Over 4 million people live in the Seattle market, Seattle Tacoma market, and they, you know, they have a big lucrative TV contract. As you think about Seattle, what’s the closest major league team to Seattle? What, San Francisco.
David Campbell: Yeah. Or Denver.
Terry Pluto: Denver. That’s what we’re talking. Right, right. You’ve got, you know, you’ve got all of Oregon and you got all Montana and all those other places, in other words, where your cable network would go. And so, and on top of it, they have a huge Asian population who supports that and buys, you know, buys all kinds of stuff from the team. So it’s a, it’s a powerhouse team in terms of marketing and, and revenue and you know, I’ll give him credit. Boy, he stepped up big time in the playoffs. I mean, big time.
David Campbell: All right, well, another contract related thing that we probably should get into. Terry is Stephen Kwan, and people thought he might be traded at the trade deadline during the 2025 season. He’s in arbitration, and I think he’s expected to make 8 1/2 million next season through arbitration from the estimates I’ve seen. And then there’s one more year of arbitration in 2027. Do you think the Guardian should be looking to move him this offseason? Would you hold on to him for another half a season or how would you handle this thing?
Terry Pluto: All right. If you’re quant agent Dave Campbell and you just saw what Josh Maywe got, you would want how much?
David Campbell: Probably close to that.
Terry Pluto: Yeah.
David Campbell: I mean, he’s not producing the kind of power numbers, but the defensive numbers are incredible. Gold Glove winner. And every year. And it’s not far below that. Right.
Terry Pluto: Am I off premier leadoff guy? Sure. Four years, 80 million anyway. Something like that.
David Campbell: Yeah. Somewhere in there, right?
Terry Pluto: Yeah. Four years, 80. Four years, 70. You know, and that’s. I think if you’re the Guardians and you see that, you got to go, all right. You know, Quan is. This is not Jose, who is unique among players and how he views the world and how he views Cleveland. Yeah, he only played for Cleveland. He didn’t want to play anywhere but Cleveland. And this was just what he want. They leave me alone and let me play ball here. That is how he views it. And the team’s good. And he watched enough whether it was Frankie Lindor go somewhere else or whatever and see that just because you go to a big market, you may think it guarantees you something, but it doesn’t necessarily. But if you’re Stephen Kwan, who’s a player rep, and, you know, with the union, it’s like, well, I don’t really need to particularly cut them up a contract. And he’s from California, and a lot of those guys like to play in California. The other thing is they also like to. I didn’t know this, but I was talking to one baseball person who was telling me, says, do you know one of the things that teams or agents and players look at when they are picking teams in free agency? And I’m like, okay, tell me. Because he uses something where they train. They want to train in Arizona. Yes. A lot of them have places or want places in Arizona. And so they’re looking at where they want to train. Because he was telling me about Shane Bieber, who I guess has a place in Scottsdale or somewhere, and he’s a little surprised that Bieber picked up that option to Stay with the Blue Jays because they train in Florida and I was, too. But I think. Didn’t we get an email from someone that said they thought that that might be a prelude to a long term contract?
David Campbell: Yeah, and I think you might have been mentioned that, too, that they might.
Terry Pluto: I believe that. Otherwise, why do it? So now, remember Toronto’s. We talked about that last week. Toronto’s, you know, huge market. So they could, you know, you kind of line up with Bieber and say, all right, we’ll worry, work out the details as we go on, but you’re at 16 right now. That’s our base and we’ll go off from there.
David Campbell: Okay, so what if you’re the guardians, Terry? What are you doing with Stephen Kwan? If you get the value you want with prospects or a good young outfielder or something, you got to get it.
Terry Pluto: You got to get somebody to play in the major leagues. You can’t just trade them for a basket of AAA guys, Class A guys. You got to get a real player for them.
David Campbell: So when is the question, though, would you try and do it this offseason? Would you wait?
Terry Pluto: I would. See, you’re not under pressure to trade him in the off season, but if the right deal is there, I would take it. And now I would have serious talks. What’s it going to take? That’s what. All right, what. Here’s what we could do. You know, maybe you offer them 60 for, you know, whatever. A little under whatever Jose’s making, you know, for four years. Like 15 million a year for four years, you know, something like that. Because then Jose goes to 18 to 20, you know, as it goes along, and then see if we’ll take it and see if you’re even close.
David Campbell: And if not, then you start testing the trade market.
Terry Pluto: Yeah, because it’s just how it is now. Everybody is freaked out in baseball, except in Seattle and a few others about the upcoming labor negotiations at the end of the 26th season and baseball shutting down. What will that mean for free agency afterwards, all this kind of stuff. And that also could be why Naylor decided, I’m going to get the best contract I can now, because who knows what it’s going to be later? And when they probably threw that thing at them, I’m all in. I don’t blame them. I wouldn’t let them get them off the phone either. I’m not knocking Naylor. I’m just saying that’s a really good contract. On top of that, you got a no trade, which is a lever for you to get More money if they try to trade you somewhere else.
David Campbell: All right, we do have one guardian’s email that I wanted to get to here. This one is from Steve Ronski in Grays Lake, Illinois. And Steve’s a longtime listener. He says, hey, Terry and David, I wanted to get your takes on the guardians declining John means 6 million club option for next season. I think it was a mistake. It makes me wonder why they bothered to sign him at all. You can never have enough starting pitching. Let him come to spring training and compete for a rotation spot. It’s not as if Logan Allen, Parker Messick, and Joey Cantillo are proven commodities. If at some point the guards decide that there is no place for Means, I guarantee with that low salary, he’d have some trade value. Keep up the good work. What do you think of Steve’s point there, Terry?
Terry Pluto: Well, my guess is before they released him or whatever, they probably did ask around on that if anybody wanted him. And so he’s 32 and I’m checking on his minor league stats for this year. They were not very good. I know that. And so the, you know, the big thing there is I. I kind of trust them on pitching. Not too often. They sometimes blow it on hitters, but they don’t do it too very often on. On pitching. And usually. In fact, there’s kind of a thing in baseball, if the Guardians are given up on a pitcher, look out, you know, here comes Tommy John or whatever it is. And let’s say here he was. So he had. All right, it was only five games in AAA, but the era was 797 and 20 hits and it was bad. Oh, my goodness. In those 20 innings, he gave up seven home runs. AAA.
David Campbell: Well, there’s some evidence and did not pitch it off.
Terry Pluto: Yep, that’s probably why.
David Campbell: All right. Okay. Well, I think we’re about ready to wrap up here, Terry, and we do have a football question to end with.
Terry Pluto: Sure.
David Campbell: All right, let’s go to it.
Terry Pluto: Yes.
David Campbell: So I think a couple months ago I brought up this idea of moving back the field goal holder and kicker to 9 and 10 yards behind the line of scrimmage because so many kicks were being blocked. And we have an email here in response to that from Scott Goodman. And Scott lives in Matthews, North Carolina, and he says, hey, guys, I was listening to your podcast a while back in your discussion of moving back the field goal kicker to 9 or 10 yards behind line of scrimmage to get a higher kick angle, especially on long field goals, I have two areas of concern. Number one, the snap to the holder will increase by probably tenths of a second. And number two, and a greater concern, the end rusher has a better angle to the ball, which I hadn’t thought of. It would be an interesting conversation with a special special team, special teams coach Bubba Venturone, for example, for their thoughts. Great podcast to you and Roberta Terry. That’s from Scott Goodman in Matthews, North Carolina. So I had not, I have not, I don’t haven’t created like a computer model of this. Terry. It was an idea, but I’ve always been taught that the ball, you know, moves faster than a person. So I think if you moved from 8 to 10 yards back or 7 to 10 yards back, that extra 3 yards would take, I don’t know, not a tenth of a, maybe a tenth of a second. And I don’t think a guy could move that quickly to get there. The angle is a different thing. But you know, I was curious. I was kind of looking up there have been seven punts blocked in the whole NFL this season out of 1187 punts.
Terry Pluto: Yeah.
David Campbell: And there have been 16 field goals blocked this season out of 655. So I think point five, my math might be wrong. So let me know if I am our listeners. But the seven punts blocked out of 1187 is 0.5% of punts have been blocked this year. And for field goals it’s 2.4%. So yes, the punt team doesn’t always try to block and they. You have to figure that in.
Terry Pluto: And also the punt, the punt is generally kicked at a higher arc immediately than a field goal instead of toward.
David Campbell: The line of scrimmage on a line drive.
Terry Pluto: Yeah. Also you’re trying to get it higher. You know, this tenth of a second thing, I’m going to take it a little different direction, but it might help. The point I looked up, it’s in my column on Shador Sanders today. And, and he was throwing 3.3 seconds from the pocket. And the only guy throwing longer in the pocket was Caleb Williams. I think was at 3.4. From the book from the Chicago the Average is about 2.7. You think what 2.7? That’s like a half a second. It’s a huge difference.
David Campbell: When you got coming at you, you better believe it.
Terry Pluto: Right.
David Campbell: Half a second makes all the difference. Yeah.
Terry Pluto: And that was one of those things where desean was over three, three seconds. You know, once in a while I’m sitting next to you, we’re watching it and I’ll start going 1,000, 2,000 or 1,000, 2,000, 3,000 or 1 Mississippi two minutes and I’m saying three and that guy still get the ball. It’s like look out.
David Campbell: It should be on that. You better be climbing the pocket or rolling out at that point.
Terry Pluto: And that is probably what has to do with this thing with the field goals. I, you know, I’m on the Browns pregame show on WTAM and one of the host is Kevin Spencer who’s a long time special teams coach. I will ask him this question, okay. Sunday I’ll say Kevin. All right, I’ll tap the host. Boom, Daddy’s the host. So now I got a question for Kevin here and I’m sure he will have probably like all these guys thought it through and we’ll see what comes with. All right. Hopefully find out because it is an interesting question. And field goals are being blocked more now. I will also counter with this part of the reason it’d be interesting to see where the field goals were being blocked. Were they 30 yard field goals, were they 50 yard field goals or longer? My guess is they’re longer because Phil Dawson told me this. He said sometimes the problem isn’t our lack of leg strength to hit from 55 yards is that we have to kick it at a lower trajectory to kick it harder to get it through the wind and get it there from 55 yards, which leads to it being blocked.
David Campbell: Yeah, I’m just interested in this and I love our listeners coming up with kind of some pushback to this. And we appreciate the email here from Scott. But so the NFL does this thing called the Big Data bowl every year where they have sports analytics people and I think a couple of years ago they pick a topic and they’re like tell us how we should measure this. And a couple years ago they wanted to the Big Data bowl participants to focus on a measurement that would show how good a defensive back was covering a guy. Right. It’s a very like how do you even measure that? So yeah, there might even be data out there. I haven’t seen it, but maybe that could be a big data bull thing they do one year. Where’s the ideal place to kick a field goal from where you’ll have the least chance of getting a block that maybe they’ve already done it. If I find it a lot of.
Terry Pluto: Stats there as opposed to a thing where you have receiver in motion, running back in motion, I mean defensive back in motion, quarterback ball in motion, where here you have a static situation, the ball is stopped, they are lining up at a certain place, they are snapping it, and generally they’re snapping it to a guy, what, eight yards behind the line of scrimmage, and they’re kicking. So how does this go?
David Campbell: And you’re right. The edge rusher starts from a certain place, and he’s taking a certain angle based on where he wants to end up. So it’s. It’s fascinating.
Terry Pluto: Once in a while, you have the great Miles Garrett coming up over the middle. Yeah, right. But other than that, it’s the same stuff.
David Campbell: All right. Well, anyway, that was a fun letter, by the way.
Terry Pluto: What about Andre Smith’s? The man’s just nailing these field goals one after another. Nobody cares now because they’re losing.
David Campbell: Yeah, he might win a game coming up here. You never know.
Terry Pluto: By the way, what if he ends up actually being their kicker? Maybe they found a guy. We’ll see. The weather’s getting worse. I’m not going out there yet. But what I respected about him was after that brutal game, his first NFL game, this is the extra point. This is the, like, 33 yard field goal that would have won it. He had a hero week. How he stinks. And they ought to get rid of him. Then he goes to Baltimore, and they were blown out, but I think he kicked a field goal and two extra points and a block, and he’s just kind of taken off since. He’s had a miss here or miss there, but there hasn’t been a point. You go home, and now when he walks out there, I’m not going. Oh, Lord. Now what?
David Campbell: Yeah, he’s just kind of going about his business, and nobody, like you said, nobody’s talking about him. 15 of 18 on field goals this season with a long of 55, and he’s made 15 out of 16 extra points.
Terry Pluto: Yeah, so he missed the extra points in the first game, and he missed a field goal. So it means he’s like 50. He’s like 14. Yeah. 15 out of 17 since the brutal first game, and that’s. That’s really good. And he’s kicked some long ones.
David Campbell: Well, there you go. We started the podcast with good news, and we’re gonna end with good news for Browns fans. So there you go. All right, we all set here, Terry, Anything else you want to do? All right, do not forget about Terry’s book signings tonight and Thursday. If you want to hit either one of those or some of the other ones we mentioned. Thanks to Scott for writing in and all of our other emailers. Again, hit us@sportsleveland.com with any of your thoughts, comments, questions. Don’t forget to put Terry’s Talking in the subject line. We will talk to you next week on Terry’s Talking.
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