CLEVELAND, Ohio — This episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast is a blunt conversation about where the Cavs stand, how they’re viewed around the league and what has to change before things slip further.
Takeaways:
What is the significance of Coach Kenny Atkinson’s post-game comments?
Kenny Atkinson has adopted a noticeably harsher and more critical tone this season. Following the loss, he used strong language, stating the Cavs were “kind of dominated” and that Houston “enforced their identity more than we did.” The most revealing comment was about the team’s rebounding struggles, where he admitted, “we’re not built that way.” The hosts interpret this as the coach “planting seeds” of dissatisfaction, telling the public that he is seeing red flags and is worried about the team’s habits and regression, especially on offense. This critical public approach is a departure from his typical defense of his players and signals deeper concerns within the coaching staff about the team’s makeup and direction.
Do the Cavaliers have an identity problem?
The hosts argue that the Cavaliers currently lack a stable identity, especially compared to their opponent, the Houston Rockets. While the Rockets have a clear, physical identity of “blunt force trauma basketball” that they maintain regardless of who is in the lineup, the Cavs’ identity seems to ebb and flow based on player availability. This fragility was a key criticism following their playoff loss last season, where they were perceived as a team that could be “punked.” According to the podcast, the Cavs have done little to change that reputation. The sentiment is that tough, identity-driven teams know they can physically challenge the Cavs, a weakness that won’t be solved simply by getting injured players back.
What are the main concerns surrounding Evan Mobley’s performance and development?
Evan Mobley’s development has hit a “plateau” or “stall,” creating a significant disconnect between the high expectations for him and his on-court performance. Another issue has become alarming. His free-throw shooting (60.4% on the season, 4-of-10 in the game) and a perceived lack of confidence, which Atkinson pointed to directly. The hosts suggest Mobley is struggling with the pressure of being a star, disassociating on offense, and failing to take the leap needed to be a reliable number-two option. This has led to fan frustration, as they feel they were “sold a bad bill of goods.” While he shows flashes, his inconsistency and poor free-throw shooting make it difficult for the team to rely on him in critical moments.
Why is the team’s rebounding a major issue despite their size?
The Cavaliers’ inability to rebound effectively is a glaring weakness, despite building the roster around a two-big lineup of Jarrett Allen and Evan Mobley. The Rockets “hammered” them on the glass, prompting Atkinson’s stark admission that “we’re not built that way.” The podcast questions why this pairing has not resulted in rebounding dominance, citing Rockets’ coach Ime Udoka’s belief that rebounding is largely inherent — a “just go get it” mentality that the Cavs’ bigs may lack. The failure to secure the glass undermines a primary justification for the two-big construction, which was intended to provide elite rim protection and control the boards to compensate for a smaller backcourt.
How are injuries exposing deeper offensive flaws?
While the absences of Darius Garland, Max Strus, and others are significant, they have exposed deeper, systemic flaws in the Cavaliers’ offense. Against Houston, the offense looked “completely baffled” when the Rockets double-teamed Donovan Mitchell, resulting in the team’s second-lowest scoring quarter of the season. This highlighted a lack of reliable secondary creators and scorers. Furthermore, the team’s poor free-throw shooting—ranked 25th in the league despite being 10th in attempts—is an alarming trend that squanders opportunities. The team is leaving crucial points at the line, with Evan Mobley being a primary culprit, which turns possessions that should be productive into empty ones.
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Transcript
NOTE: This transcript was generated by artificial intelligence and could contain misspellings and errors.
Ethan Sands: What up Cavs Nation? I’m your host Ethan Sands and I’m back with another episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast and I’m here with Chris Fedor, cleveland.com CAS beat reporter, and Jimmy Watkins, cleveland.com columnist. And we’re here with you guys after the Cavs 114, 104 loss to the Houston Rockets. And before we want to get into the contest itself, I feel like we need to give an injury update. Darius Garland is close to returning and Kenny Atkinson, even though earlier in the season said that he didn’t want to give out specific dates for when players will return because it has bit him before, said that Jalen Tyson could make his return from the concussion protocol. On Friday we saw Jaylon Tyson at shootaround getting some shots up and also a full court workout individually with trainers afterwards. And also Kenny Atkinson said when it comes to Darius Garland that he’s been doing five on five work and taking contact, which is obviously the last step necessary before making a return in his ramp up process. Guys, let’s turn this to the Cavs vs Rockets case and obviously going forward as a whole, this team misses and needs what both of those players brings. Darius Garland is obviously the engine of the offense. He keeps the water flowing on the offensive end of the floor and when he’s not there, the offense flows I guess, but it’s more like a drip if you’re talking about a faucet rather than an actually flow fully coming out. And Jaylon Tyson, defensively they miss his energy, they miss his presence, physicality, they miss what he brings intensity wise on the floor and obviously they subbed out Jalen Tyson for Naquan Tomlin, who made just his second NBA start of his entire career and first of the season. Chris Jimmy, what is the importance of getting these two players back potentially in the end of the week?
Chris Fedor: I think you saw a little bit of it tonight, honestly, with the way that the Houston Rockets decided to attack the Cavs when they were on the offensive end of the floor, the way that they decided to guard Donovan Mitchell, using two guys against him, pressuring him out to half court, denying him the basketball. All of those things become more difficult to do when he has all of the different offensive weapons surrounding him, including Darius, who can take some of those shots away from him, who can take some of that ball handling responsibility away from him, and mostly he can take that attention away from him. Houston went into this game with a specific game plan. They said it’s not going to be Donovan Mitchell we’re not going to allow him to beat us. We’re going to force everybody else to beat us because we think that’s going to make the Cavs really, really uncomfortable on the offensive end of the floor when they don’t have Donovan and creating everything. And guess what? They were right. In the situation that the Cavs are in right now. No Sam Merrill, no Jaylon Tyson, no Darius Garland, no Max Strus. They just don’t have enough reliable sources of offense. And in the first quarter, The Cavs scored 19 points, which is their second lowest scoring total of any quarter all season long. And their offense looked completely baffled by what the Rockets were doing. And Donovan said it was unique. And not everybody can do that. You have to have a certain kind of personnel, and obviously the Rockets have the length, the athleticism, the size, the physicality. They’ve got the. The other guys at the back end of the defense that can kind of hold down the paint, even with two guys going at Donovan Mitchell, with Stephen Adams and Alper and Shangoon anchoring the paint. But you felt the effects of what the Cavs were missing tonight in saying all of that. I thought it was very, very interesting. Some of the commentary from head coach Kenny Atkinson following this one, he seems to be looking at this team through a harsher lens this year. He seems to be taking more of a critical approach to how this team is playing. And he told us at the very beginning of the season, he said, hey, this is going to be different. They’re going to be growing pains. This is a work in progress. And then the other night following the Milwaukee game, he told us this kind of game, this kind of performance, this kind of loss was coming from his team. He could see signs. And I think when Kenny talks about just the pulse of his team and how he’s viewing it and the current state of the team, we’ve got to start paying attention because he is telling us all we need to know about this basketball team.
Jimmy Watkins: I know that Kenny forewarned us a little bit, particularly about this game. Kenny was spot on about this game. I mean, I think we kind of felt it. The lag that the Cavs had in their step mixed with Houston, which only knows blunt force trauma basketball, like, that’s just a bad. That’s a bad combination. And it’s really hard. It’s hard to flip the switch in general. It’s really hard to flip the switch when you’re down personnel and this other team is rolling the way Houston. I mean, this team has the second best net rating in the. In the entire league. So Kenny’s critical eye is of course because they’re playing worse even than he expected. Again went to growing pains. He didn’t expect this. I also just think like I think he’s a little startled. Think about the way Kenny thinks about things. We left the Pacer series me Chris Nathan thinking the Cavs get lost in their defensive identity in that series. Much of Kenny’s commentary in that series, our offense isn’t good enough Feeding the Pacers transition game. Cavs are an average offense right now through a not insignificant chunk of the season. I’ll say it for the millionth time. Darius Garland’s not there. He changes everything. Max Truce isn’t there. He’s a big piece tonight. No Sam Merrill. So you don’t have either of your Scramble the defense off the ball guys. But I think that part, that part is eye popping. The Evan Mobley. What do we want to call this? The great Evan Mobley Stall the development stall whatever’s happening here. Flat is eye popping. Yeah. The plateau that is eye popping. Donovan continues to wave off. He said tonight I’m happy this was a step forward for Evan. He didn’t get to the line 10 times. I get it. One shot attempt in the fourth quarter. It just seems like they’re speaking two different languages from this year to last year with Evan Mobley last year I felt like for a month and a half when we brought up Evan Mobley, everything that Kenny said was it has to be all the time. Has to be all the time. That’s the difference between good players and great players. There’s no breaks. There’s almost always a break. Now with Evan Mobley, it’s just a matter of when. When is he going to disassociate? When are the Cavs going to lose him on offense? So I think that’s, that’s where Kenny’s Again, think about the way Kenny thinks about this. He designed this beautiful flowing offense. This was supposed to be the season of advancing and making tweaks. Again. Injuries have hurt that but instead they have regressed. That’s why I think this rhetoric he’s telling us he and he doesn’t speak this way. He’s not a above it but he’s not a big time call my team out in the media guy. But he’s planting seeds right now. He’s letting us know. Yeah, I’m seeing some red flags here.
Chris Fedor: I mean think about some of his quotes from tonight. Ok. Here are some of the terms that he used and this is just a synopsis. This isn’t everything that he said, but this is a synopsis. They kind of dominated us. Think about that. They kind of dominated us. And then beyond that, he was talking about the rebounding disparity, and it was hilarious. He said that’s obviously their strength. We’re not built that way. We’re not built that way. Think about that. Like, he is fueling so many of these things that people already think and already say about the Cavs. And then further into his press conference, he said, we obviously hit the team on it tonight, talking about the rebounding, but they hammered us. I’m a little disappointed we got some there at the end, but too little, too late. And then he said they enforced their identity more than we did. And that’s what this league comes down to. You have your identity. You’ve got to go with it. It was the third time they beat us three in a row. They’ve done a better job than us. So it does feel like, again, Kenny doesn’t like you said Jimmy, he doesn’t hammer his players. He defends his players as much as possible. But he is definitely telling you through his messaging what he’s seeing from this basketball team. And he doesn’t like the things that he’s seeing. I think he’s worried about the potential even in the circumstances that the Cavs are in. And I think he recognizes what they’re missing, and I think everybody recognizes what they’re missing and how much better they are when they’re complete. But he has talked about the regular season being about building habits. He has talked about the regular season being the things that you do behind the scenes mattering when it comes to springtime. He has talked about not. Not losing an opportunity for. For. For advancement and growth. Each day is an opportunity for those things. Each day is an opportunity to get better. And I just don’t think he’s seeing the kind of habits developing that he wants to be seeing. That’s my read on the situation.
Jimmy Watkins: Also, you’re not built that way. Imagine telling 2020 Kobe Altman. That would be what his coach would be saying about this, this pairing of Jared Allen and Evan Mobley. DeAndre Hunter said it a version of that tonight, too. I asked directly, hey, I know Houston’s like insane, but, like, they’re playing two bigs. They are reaping the benefits in the rebounding category. You guys play two bigs a lot. Why is that not happening for you guys? And DeAndre Hunter said, Our bigs are different. Yeah, we don’t have a style of Big Evan Mobley’s a stretch. A stretch. Big Evan mobile supposed to be everything. I asked Evan Moby the same question or a version of the same question. I don’t really have an answer for you there. He says the default tends to be like, we have to just go get it. Well, you’re not going to get it. I’ve asked Ime Udoka, the Rockets coach, can you get better at offensive? How much of it is coaching versus inherent? Because a lot of the rebounders that I’ve asked this question, this is not a new topic of conversation. A lot of them just say, like, just go. Just go. And he made Imeidoku said a version of that when I asked him how he goes. And he’s coaching these guys. Tari Easton’s of the world, the Amin Thompson of the world. He’s trying to teach them that, hey, Stephen Adams takes up like three dudes sometimes, so there are opportunities for you to just go. I was like, okay, how do you coach them to get better? He says, just go. Like, it’s kind of inherent. Some of this stuff is kind of inherent. And it’s. We are five years into this pairing, and if it’s inherent, then I’m about ready to call it and say that you’re just not a very good rebounding duo. Now I’ll throw this lifeline. Another question I asked Evan how much of it is because you’re defending shots at the rib? Because the Cavs do funnel everything toward them defensively. So a lot of the time at least one of them is engaged at the rim, is jumping to contest or going vertical to contest, making it hard for them to get the rebound. But that’s why you have two. Yep, that’s why you have two. So that one of them can always be doing that and the other one can always be doing everything he can to get the rebound, at least clearing out space for someone else to get the rebound. If you want to say, as coaches, as Kenny has said, as J.B. bickerstaff said before him, it needs to be a team rebounding thing. The other night it was a good sign against Milwaukee that like six or seven guys got at least five rebounds. Donovan Mitchell will say he could do more. Darius Garland, he will say he can do more. Yada, yada, yada. It’s lip service. The reason you build a too big construction with your roster is so that you’ll be awesome protecting the rim and you’ll secure the glass. The reason The Cavs felt comfortable pairing Donovan Mitchell with Darius of Garland in part because they had two two bigs who could protect them on defense and two bigs who they thought they thought would be able to secure the glass despite playing smaller lineups. It hasn’t happened and that has nothing to do with Darius Garland being injured or Max Strus being injured. This has just been a fact for a long time now.
Chris Fedor: Kenny saying we’re not built that way nearly made me fall over.
Ethan Sands: It’s apparent with the lineups that they went to tonight because even though Kenny Atkinson tried to add some inches to Craig Porter Jr’s height and say that he was 6 foot 4, 6 foot 1 Craig Porter Jr. 7 rebounds for Craig Porter Jr tonight, sure you could say that it was positioning and all these other things. Craig Porter Jr. Might have the best rebounding instincts on the team. I don’t think that’s a slight to Jared Allen or Evan Mobley, but he is one of those players that simply goes and gets it. And when Jared Allen was in the game in the fourth quarter, Craig Porter Jr. Was in there. Maybe it was for offensive creation to get Donovan Mitchell off the ball and all these other things. Maybe it was for rebounding. I also want to go back to your guys point about identity. And an identity is supposed to be stable and an identity is not supposed to ebb and flow when a player is out. It is supposed to be a baseline. It is supposed to be what you rely on when players are out. It is not supposed to change when players are coming in and out of the lineup. The Cavs again, and I keep banging this drum. The Cavs to me don’t have an identity right now because it is based on who they have on the floor and who was available to them. And that’s not an identity. The Houston Rockets know their identity whether they have players out, whether they have different lineups in crash the boards, make life difficult. Get in the players and be physical, be tough. Because as we talked to Nimea Adoka before the game, people know, teams know that’s their game and they don’t have to flip a switch. He used that phrase, guys, they do not have to change. They do not have to flip a switch in the playoffs. They are just who they are. And I think when we keep talking about this philosophical difference between the Cavs and the Houston Rockets, it’s the free flowing versus confrontational outlook. And I’ve said this on last podcast, but I think you get the idea of that when you see these two teams play against one another at a different level. And Naquan Tomlin getting into a scrap with Jabari Smith Jr. Early on into the game, and him pushing back and kind of say, I’m not going anywhere, even though, again, it was just his second career start. That means something. DeAndre Hunter said it after the game, you cannot allow teams to come in here and feel like they can punk you. You have to set a standard. And to me, guys, it was kind of telling that DeAndre would go that far and say that this Cavs team can’t be punked. You cannot allow teams to punk you. And gave the impression of, do teams think that? Do teams come in and think teams think that?
Chris Fedor: Of course they do. Yes. The Cavs haven’t done anything to change that. I. I think that’s one of the issues that a lot of people are having, guys, with this year’s version of the Cavs. You know, given everything that happened in the playoffs last year, the flame up there was earlier than anybody expected. They were favored in every single game in that series against Indiana. So to hell with who the Cavs were missing. The other things that were within their control in that series against Indiana, they did not control, they did not do a good enough job. It was a 41 series loss against a team that they were supposed to be better than that they were supposed to be. So on the heels of that, if you’re somebody that has all these questions about the Cavs and you’re a quote, unquote, doubter, everybody can see the talent, everybody can see the skill. They were the only team in the NBA last year with three All Stars, okay? So everybody sees that. Everybody knows that about this team. But the other questions that you have, the other reason that you’re going to quote, unquote, doubt this team. So you come into this season and you say, well, I don’t know about the Cavs. They gotta prove it. They gotta show me. And we all know that that’s not going to happen in October or November. But if you are a quote, unquote doubter, you have certain things that you want to see about the Cavs makeup that they can show. They can show those things in October and November. And if you are a doubter, you say, is this team tough enough? Do they have enough mean guys? Can they rebound the basketball well enough? Do they have enough reliable, consistent offense, aside from Donovan Mitchell and maybe Darius Garland? Is Evan Mobley ready to take that next leap? Those were the questions that people had. That’s what the doubters wanted to See, and so far, what have they done to this point? Up to this point? Obviously, it’s only 16 games, but what have they done to this point to answer those questions? If anything, they have only fueled those doubts. And that’s what people are struggling with. With the Cavs. Yes. Everybody recognizes that Darius is missing. Everybody sees that there was no Sam Merrill tonight. Everybody knows that they’ve used eight different starting. Nine now. Nine different starting lineups now. And everybody knows that Max Strus hasn’t played a single game yet because he’s recovering from off season foot surgery. But there are things that you want to see from the Cavs that make you believe, hey, this team is going in the right direction. This team learned from that loss against Indiana, this team is going to be better because of this, this, this and this. And instead you’re saying, well, all those things that I want to see that make me now a believer instead of a doubter. None of those have happened. Not one. Not one of them has happened to this point. So, of course, teams around the NBA are like these guys, these jokers, the ones that lost 4:1 against the Indiana Pacers. The ones that. There is a reputation surrounding this Cavs team, and every team seems to want to test that reputation.
Ethan Sands: Since we’re looking back at that series, before I let Jimmy go really quickly, I think it was also telling that we were asking Rick Carlisle like, hey, you guys are being really physical. You guys are doing these things. And he legitimately said, we aren’t known as a physical team. We just feel like we can do that in this series, basically.
Jimmy Watkins: I mean, same thing with Houston changing his start lineup tonight. Going to the Stephen app. They. They know their plan. They know their plan, to Ethan’s point, about stability and identity. Stability within identity. I guess a better way to put it. Fred Van Vliet hasn’t played a single game for the Houston Rockets this season. That’s their point guard, by the way. They don’t have a Donovan Mitchell to be a facsimile to replace. Even come close, like with the number of moments tonight. And we. Let’s give the Cavs second unit some credit for scrapping together and. And getting them back into this game. No, no, no, no. The second unit. No Craig Porter Jr. Love?
Chris Fedor: This is one of the NBA title favorites. This is the second best team in the Eastern Conference or the best team in the Eastern Conference. Supposedly we’re giving them credit for getting within one on their own home floor against that.
Jimmy Watkins: No, I’m giving the second unit credit for bringing the juice from the first. And I, I just wanted to say that as an aside, when Houston’s offense looks ugly, it looks really ugly. You notice the absence of a point guard. But you know what? They’re figuring it out now. They’re unique. They play a different style. Right. By the way, it’s not just Fred Van Vliet. No Tar Eason tonight, no Dorian Finney Smith. The Oklahoma City Thunder, the champs. If anybody has built up enough credibility to take their foot off the gas for a regular season, say, hey, we’ve proved it already. We don’t need to bring the energy in May. We’ll lose some weird November games. Mark Dagnal should be talking about focus and juice. Also, without J Dub, Jdub hasn’t played a single game yet. They’re second best player.
Chris Fedor: Maybe a top 10 player in the game. If you look at some of these preseason rankings
Jimmy Watkins: Yes, Oklahoma City’s churning along, bringing the juice on defense. Maybe it’s because they’re built that way, quote, unquote. Maybe it’s not the roster that’s built that way. Maybe it is the players who are built the right way.
Chris Fedor: To this whole credit thing, Houston led for 45 minutes. Like, come on, that was a domination. I don’t care that the Cavs got it back to one point. They were down 22 at one point. Houston led for 45 minutes and they led for the final 41 minutes. That was not a close game by any means. That was, in the words of Kenny Atkinson, that was domination by one team versus the other team. So I’m not going to give them credit, any kind of credit. Tonight. Donovan Mitchell was even saying like, hey, we got back into the game in the second half and no, I don’t want to hear that. You’re supposed to be one of the title favorites.
Ethan Sands: Guys, I think the, the biggest thing from the game itself is the free throws because it’s becoming an alarming trend. It’s becoming something that the Cavs cannot rely on and especially if they’re going to continuously put themselves in a situation where These games are 5 points, 6 points, 8 points, 10 points in the fourth quarter and you are currently after tonight’s game, tied for the 25th ranked free throw percentage team in the league. But you attempt the 10th most free throws per game. I think that is appalling. And when I was even doing a little bit more research, there have been five games this season. The Cavs have now played 16 games, five games this season where they have shot 80% or better from the free throw line. Five. That’s not good enough. And especially when you talk about, oh, we need to drive more, starting the season off 29th in drives and then getting better and improving in that, well, you’re not making the most of all of the exertion you’re doing to get to the painted area if you’re getting the harm, getting the foul, but not converting. And Evan Mobley is at the pinnacle of this. Right? Evan Mopley, when you look at his season numbers, is attempting 6.4 free throw attempts per game. He’s shooting 60.4% in tonight’s contest. The Cavs as a whole shot 62.5%. 20 of 32. They left 12 points at the free throw line. They lost by 10. Evan Mobley 4 of 10 from the free throw line. And Donovan Mitchell and Kenny Atkinson both used their different ways of saying this is a focus thing, a mentality thing. And Kenny Atkinson even pointed to Evan Mobley directly. And Evan Mobley admitted that he needed to be better as well. But Evan Mobley was pointed to by Kenny Atkinson who said, I think he might have lost some confidence. And that’s necessarily pointing to exactly at the free throw line, but in general as well. And as someone who has been basically given the keys to the offense at points throughout the season at the beginning portion without Darius Garland, I think this is a player that cannot falter when it comes to confidence, especially when you’re trying to get him to a different level. And if that is the case, if your head coach is thinking that you’re losing confidence and as we mentioned in a previous podcast, is now partnering him again with Donovan Mitchell in rotations, even though he said he might not do that. There’s signs that Kenny Atkinson is like, I need to give Evan Mobley more help.
Chris Fedor: Well, I don’t know what, what is going to help him in, in terms of his free throw shooting. I think he’s had two airballs at the free throw line this year. One of them on the road might have, might have grazed the rim, but I remember grabbing another reporter as it was a near airball, like, what the hell is going on here? And you could just sense it in the arena, especially in the fourth quarter tonight at home. There was not person in the arena that thought Evan was going to go to the free throw line and make both. They were wondering if he was going to make one. You could hear the groans and the murmurs as he was approaching his release on the shot. So I don’t this is a fascinating thing. And the fact that Kenny Atkinson used the confidence word that to me is. Is fascinating as well. And I just wonder. I don’t know this. I am not in the head of Evan Mobley. I am not in the heart of Evan Mobley. I just wonder if all of this talk over the last however many months about Evan’s gonna be this Evan versus Wemby for the future best player in the NBA. Evan to be an MVP candidate down the road, Evan to be a top five player, Evan this, Evan that. Evan this, Evan that. I just wonder if that level of pressure and expectation is something that he is ready for. Maybe he is personally, maybe mentally he is. I don’t know. Again, I’m not in his head, but it doesn’t feel like his game is. Does that make sense? And we’ve talked about this on a previous podcast. Certain guys are just more comfortable out of the spotlight. Certain guys are just more comfortable being the third member of a big three or four Robin to somebody else’s Batman. And it just feels like to me, and it’s making me wonder just, will Evan Mobley get to a point where he is comfortable with all of the attention, with all of the pressure, with all of the expectations and everything that comes with being a star player in today’s NBA.
Jimmy Watkins: This hype didn’t come from nowhere, right? Because the Cavs clearly, clearly. I mean, last year, we saw he was better last year than he has been.
Chris Fedor: So I mean, he was second team all NBA. He was a first time all star.
Jimmy Watkins: Yeah, for sure, for sure. We started with last year and then I think in this, he probably got in the gym this summer and then when he hosted the mini camp that excited the Cavs. And I think players probably came back and said, hey, Evan looks really good. And I remember asking Isaiah Mobley, Evan’s brother, at media day, like two years ago, three years ago, one on one, it’s like, hey, what. What percentage of. Of moves does Evan use in a game that he can do? You’ve only. You only see, you only scratch the surface. He can do. He can do everything. I believe. I believe that. And I believe that the Cavs were seeing things over the summer and in open gyms and during the preseason and during training camp. They were making them sick. Holy crap. This is what we’ve been prophesizing. But translating it onto the court is a completely different story. It’s just harder. Particularly for a natural introvert. Confidence is a slower burn. The Cavs have been for two and a Half three years now. They’ve been trying to help Evan fake it till he made it. They’ve been talking him up. They’ve been another offseason talking point. He’s using his voice more. I don’t know when he was in front of the mic tonight. Using your voice is different in interview settings than it is in team settings. I could still barely hear him when we were interviewing him after the game. That hasn’t really changed. And I think I want to speak to the fans on this because the messaging about Evan Mobley, Chris’s point about his game isn’t matching the hype right now. He’s not. His game isn’t ready for that moment. I think there’s real. A real point of frustration with Evan Mobley, with the fans because of the way the Cavs talk about him. He’s struggling at the line, and it’s. It’s not just like, come on, man. It feels like there’s real, like, tension, frustration. The crowd just wants to shake him. Like, you’re not who they said you were going to be. I put in subtext and I. Someone wrote in like, hey, don’t never bring up Evan Mowgli as a unicorn again. Shanghun’s better than him last year. Ridiculous take so far this season. Less ridiculous. Less ridiculous. It depends on what you value. Evan Mobile still in a different stratosphere defensively than Albert Shengun. But on the offensive end, reliability, being a hub. I mean, Alberto Shangun has been in terms of facilitation. He doesn’t bring the ball as. As often as a point guard would, but he’s kind of who they designed the offense around, and it’s working. He is the hub. Obviously, the offensive rebounding is the co hub, but he. And he is a big part of the offensive. But he is the hub of the number one offense in the NBA. I don’t know that Evan Mobley is capable of that. I think that the fans feel like they’ve been sold a bad bill of goods here, and I could. Honestly, I can see why they feel that way. I still think that there’s an upswing coming here, but I can see the frustration. I understand it.
Ethan Sands: What blows me away is the fact that Miriam Federation, newly acquired by the Athletic, just came out with an article, and Murid is one of the best feature writers in the game. Go read it. It’s a great read. But Evan says in the article, and I quote, pressure is only made up by you, usually yourself. The outside is still made up by you. If you think about what people think about this or that in just expectations. And it’s only if you feed into it. I just try to be myself at the end of the day, no matter what people think I should be, it doesn’t feel like he actually believes that. And also in this article he admits that earlier on in his career he struggled more when people were talking about him. And I think that’s telling because this is a, again, quiet, cool to himself guy. And if you’re in a quiet room by yourself and alone with your thoughts and usually you’re getting all of this positive feedback and we’ve seen this Kenny Atkinson before the season praises Evan Mobley like no other. Donovan Mitchell showers him with praise. If you’re by yourself alone in your piano room and you’re reading some of the criticism that you’re getting, if you’re alone and you’re reading scrolling through Twitter, I think it’s a lonely, lonely space, especially for a guy who is already a loner by nature. And I think when you talk about the dark places that players can go into the confidence that you can lose over stretches, especially when you are told one thing and you are unable to play to that caliber, I think it’s telling to what this Cavs organization and what Evan Mobley could be going through. Because if you’re going to tell this player that once in his career dealt with an issue of find a way out of struggling from hearing what was said about him and you put him on this pedestal, you say he’s an MVP candidate, you say he’s an all NBA player, which he was last year. You say he’s a perennial all star. You say he’s a defensive player of the year. This is a consistent, driven league and if he’s not able to maintain that platform, people are going to talk negative about him. And if he’s already struggled with that in his career, it’s just going to get hard, harder.
Chris Fedor: Well, here’s a couple of things. First of all, I agree with that and it’s, it’s something that I think Evan needs to learn. I think a lot of guys that, that step into the spotlight and become first time all stars, second team, all NBA and have these big aspirations. It’s part of a learning how to be a star. Something that Kenny Atkinson talked about with Evan last year. Something that Donovan Mitchell talked about last year. Donovan has used the quote with me multiple times in reference to Evan Mobley. With great power comes great responsibility. And when you’re this for this franchise, when you’re viewed as this for this franchise, it’s on you like nobody else. It’s on you. And that can be lonely. At the same time, he’s the one that said, in the future, it’s me and Wemby. He said that. He put that out there into the world where he sees himself that kind of way or he sees himself getting to that point. And when you start using those kinds of comparisons, everybody knows what Wemby is. Everybody has their belief about what he can be. Alien. The kind of player that we haven’t seen, maybe ever, perhaps someone who’s going to go down as the most impactful and dynamic defensive player that we’ve ever seen. That’s how people view Wemby. And Evan wanted to be viewed that way, too. He put himself in that same conversation with Wemby. When he was asked about the best player in the NBA in the future, he said, me or Wemby? So the minute that he did that, the spotlight was shining on him in a different kind of way. The minute that he did that, he was underneath a different kind of microscope. And when you’re the Cavs and you have championship aspirations and you have those kinds of expectations and everybody wants to see, like, do you have what it takes to win a championship? They’re not wondering about Donovan Mitchell. They’re not. Not as much like some people are, but those are kind of blowhards. Donovan has proven it enough. I would say, that they’re wondering about Evan Mobley. They’re wondering about Darius Garland. And I get that it can be lonely, and I get that it can be hard, and it probably is. And it’s a fascinating thing when it comes to Evan, especially given his temperament, especially given his personality and his character as well. He’s got to stay true to himself. But at the end of the day, for this team to win a championship, the reality is Evan Mobley needs to be different. Evan Mobley needs to be better. And we’ve talked about it. That’s a lot of pressure. That’s a lot of expectation on one guy. And it’s unfortunate, but it’s the reality of the situation that he’s in. And he’s just going to have to find different ways to compartmentalize all of that. Handle the negativity that comes with that, handle the criticism that could potentially come with that as well, and still, at the same time, stay true to himself and try to become the best version of Evan Mobley so that this team can legitimately compete for a championship.
Jimmy Watkins: Negativity, criticism, loneliness, pressure. I’LL go Dom Draper, Mad Men on this. That’s what the money is for. That’s why you get a max extension. You get, you get paid a lot of money to deal with that need to fulfill. It may still happen this year. I still think Darius Garland will make a big difference in Evan Mobley’s life. But, like, that’s kind of what this year was supposed to be, though. Like, this was the year where, independent of your surroundings, Evan Mobley is an awesome offensive player. We should be saying that about other people. Oh, Evan Mobley’s not out there. That’s why this person is struggling. He should not be an interdependent piece of the puzzle. Imagine, imagine just so Donovan and I want to twist Donovan’s word. Donovan was very clearly, when he said, I’m happy about tonight, I think that was progress. He was talking about 10 free throw attempts. 10 free throw attempts for Evan Mobley is objectively good. But allow me, and I’m admitting to doing this right now, so I am twisting the words a little bit. But just think, in a vacuum, 18 points, six rebounds, seven 13 shooting, no blocks. His opponent, Alper and Shengun, 28, 11 and seven. Imagine reading those two stat lines to somebody about at the Mobile two years ago and then explaining to them, no, that’s progress. Huh? It’s not.
Chris Fedor: Or your star teammate is happy about that performance.
Jimmy Watkins: It’s progress within the context of the beginning of this season. Because the beginning of this season has been a step back. Nothing is permanent. There’s still a ton of potential there. Evan Mobley is very skilled. But it’s not progress in the big picture. It’s progress in this very small picture where we’ve already moved backwards in the big picture.
Ethan Sands: The chaos, as we know, have continuously over the last couple of years tried to get Evan Mobley to stand on who he thinks he is and who they think he is.
Jimmy Watkins: Right.
Ethan Sands: That’s why we got the conversation of Victor Wembanyama and Evan Mobley potentially in five years. The other part of that is if you believe, as Evan Mobley said quoted in this article, that pressure is internal. You cannot be unable to deal with that when it comes to internal pressure that you are putting on yourself. Or you have to find a balance because we talked about this before this season entirely. Maybe the Cavs were protecting Evan Mobley over the last few years because they didn’t think that he was ready to be a star. And then they realized, hey, Donovan cannot get it done by himself. We need you to be a star, Evan Mobley now more available than he had been in previous years in post game press conference. Evan Mobley now more assertive in the way that he talks, is more able to articulate himself in a better way than he had in years past. That’s all well and good, unless what you’re saying is going to make you stew in your house by yourself and not be able to do what you think you can do. Because again, this cavity needs Evan Mobley to be a star. And that means knocking down free throws, laying games. That means being a focal point of the offense, and that means being a guy who pressure doesn’t fail, hates. Especially if you say it doesn’t.
Jimmy Watkins: I think this is well studied and this is a good point. If before the protection of Evan Mobley meant that they didn’t think he was ready then what does it mean now that they’re still protecting him?
Ethan Sands: I don’t know if they are as much right because they’re like letting him learn by fire. Kind of like, we are going to let you sit with your words. We are going to let you have to live with our words. And also, Donovan kept saying, in years past, this is a guy who was only scratching the surface. Then this year he kind of bumped through that and was like, MVP is a guy. So now you have to live with what the players and the coaching staff and the organization is saying about you. And that’s more difficult than being like, oh, they’re telling me behind the scenes that I’m so good, I have this potential. But now you actually have that attached to you. Like what Chris said, if you say something, if someone says something about you, that’s all we have to go off of. That’s what we have to know as reporters. Right? And again, in this article, this is attached to it. And you’re going to have to keep living with it, keep coming back to it. Just like Jared Allen has to live with his famous quote from the Knicks.
Chris Fedor: Yeah, the other thing that I’ll say and point out is I thought the way that Evan was used tonight was really good. I thought there was promise to it. And I thought he was more decisive. I thought he was more assertive. I thought he was able to beat guys off the dribble and get all the way to the rim, as opposed to just driving without any plan. The way that he had been more recently. The way that he played in the first three quarters against Houston, I liked it. He was getting to that baby hook with the right hand rather than fading away from the basket. He was trying to finish through contact, he was drawing more fouls. He was recognizing some advantageous matchups that he had. I think it helped him playing alongside Donovan Mitchell for longer stretches. I think it helped him that obviously Houston was loaded up to try and take the ball out of Donovan’s hands and deny him as much as possible. So it allowed the Cavs at times to play four on three, and then Evan could be the decision maker, he could be the finisher. So I thought there were things within the way that he played tonight that were good for a blueprint moving forward on how to use him and how to deploy him on the offensive end of the floor. He just looked more comfortable than he had at various points throughout the first part of this season and it didn’t feel as forced as, as it did earlier in the season. So I, I did think there was some promise to the way that, that Evan played tonight. It was unfortunate. I think that when Houston started to change some of their defensive looks and they went to more zone and whatnot, that the Cavs kind of forgot about him and they kind of ignored him at the same time, like, if we’re talking about fourth quarter touches, right, and we’re talking about fourth quarter shot attempts, you better be able to make your free throws. Otherwise there’s probably going to be a little bit of hesitancy of, hey, like, do we want him to have the ball in his hands in the fourth quarter? Do we want him initiating offense in the fourth quarter? Do we want him getting all these touches in all these shot attempts? Because if he’s going to get fouled and go to the free throw line and not capitalize on the, those turn into empty possessions. So I think it’s something that, you know, if Evan wants more touches, if he wants to be more demonstrative, if he wants more involvement, especially in the fourth quarter, you know, he’s going to have to, he’s going to have to be better about making those free throws in late game, pressure packed situations. Otherwise you’re going to ask yourself, like, do we have to go away from him? I don’t think Kenny wants to get to that point. I think he likes a lot of the things about Evan Mobley, but four of 10 from the free throw line, are you kidding me? Like, that’s not good enough. There are dudes in the NBA that get benched because the coach, the coach thinks that if that guy goes to the free throw line in a late game situation, he’s not going to come through. The Cavs certainly are not there yet with Evan. But the fact that his coach earlier tonight talked about his confidence at the free throw line, especially in late game situations, you know, that’s. That’s not the best thing. Let’s just say that.
Jimmy Watkins: And it’s a thing that can compound because you’re. Okay, you’re not confident at the free throw line, you might be a little bit more hesitant to do the things that get you to the free throw line. Evan Mobley, jump shooter. Evan Mobley stretch big. That’s one piece of the puzzle. That can’t be the whole thing.
Chris Fedor: I would also like to point out that there is a reason why I think people take comments from. From people on a podcast or things that they read, and they kind of just. They determine on their own what the person is trying to say rather than taking what the person actually says. You know what I mean? And I would just like to point out that I took a lot of crap from people inside the Cavs organization and from fans for some comments that I made this off season on the podcast.
Chris Fedor: There are questions about the readiness of Evan Mobley and the readiness of Darius Garland, and this is highlighting why it’s not a victory lap or anything like that. But now that we’re into the season, you’re seeing evidence and you’re seeing signs of what I was talking about and what other people have been talking about as well. Readiness to be a star in a playoff environment, readiness to be a second option on a team with championship aspirations. Not everybody’s ready for that, and that’s okay. The unfortunate thing from the Cavs perspective is that they need Evan to be ready for that. Otherwise. Otherwise, they’re not winning a championship. That’s the bottom line. Um, so if you’re somebody that’s looking at this Cavs team and you’re judging whether or not they can win a championship based on Evan Mobley and his evolution into more of an offensive threat, more of a reliable offensive threat, more of somebody who’s ready to be a number two option. And that running mate to Donovan Mitchell.
Chris Fedor: The answers have not been encouraging in the first 16 games. And I know growing pains, and I know everybody develops at their own pace and stuff like that, but the Cavs timeline, it’s a little bit different here. They. They. They might need Evan to be more ready than. Than what he is currently.
Ethan Sands: The last thing that I’m going to go back to is Jimmy saying something that I asked Chris on a recent podcast like, because they’ve been so bad at the free throw line. Does that deter them from going to the rim? And Chris pointedly answered, you cannot go away from something that you were so good at one last year and two, what creates so much offense, even if you take a paint touch. So the last thing I’m going to say and leave you listeners with is a stat from this season. The Cavs are 25th in the league in drives per game, just taking 42.3 per contest. This was before Wednesday night’s ballgame. Last year when it comes to the NBA season and in its entirety, the 82 game season, the Cavs averaged 51.2 drives per game. They were sixth in the league in drives per game. The Cavs team not taking drives, not making free throws, not having a defensive identity, not being able to knock down threes. That’s not a recipe for a team that is going to be successful in the playoffs. And of course we are 16 games into the season. The Cavs are not whole. But some of these problems, as we continue to reiterate, will not and cannot be solved by simply adding in Darius Garland, Max Struse, Jaylon Tyson, whoever you might name. And I think the Cavs, again, do not have an identity that they can readily rely on whenever anyone is out of their lineup. And I think that is a telling storyline. But with all that being said, that’ll wrap up today’s episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. But remember to become a Cavs insider and interact with Chris, me and Jimmy by subscribing to Subtex. We’re going to do our hey Chris episode tomorrow, so send in your questions after the first 16 games of the season and what you want to know about this Cleveland Cavaliers team. Or send in a rant about what you’re concerned about. But the only way to do this is by signing up for a 14 day free trial or visiting cleveland.com Cavs and clicking on the blue bar at the top of the page. If you don’t like it, that’s fine. All you have to do is text the word stop. It’s easy, but we can tell you that the people who sign up stick around because this is the best way to get insider coverage on the Cavs from me, Chris and Jimmy. This isn’t just our podcast, it’s your podcast. And the only way to have your voice heard is through subtext. Y’ all be safe. We out.
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