CLEVELAND, Ohio — In this episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast, Ethan Sands and Chris Fedor dig into whether the Cavs should ink Tomlin before the trade deadline or keep that roster spot open for a potential buyout addition, as they’ve done in recent years?
Takeaways:
Evan Mobley’s Lack of Aggression Remains a Major Concern
Evan Mobley’s passive performance was a focal point of concern. Despite the absence of Jarrett Allen, Mobley took only seven shots — fewer than several bench players — and grabbed just five rebounds against a physical Raptors frontcourt. The speakers argued that Mobley is not an instinctual rebounder, relying on his height and Allen’s box-outs rather than physicality. His timid offensive approach, where he looked reluctant to challenge defenders off the dribble, neutralized him as a threat. The hosts believe these kinds of nights, where he fails to assert himself as a Batman or Robin to Donovan Mitchell, cannot happen. They concluded that the Cavaliers must re-examine how they deploy Mobley to build his confidence and help him become the top-tier player the organization envisions.
Nae’Qwan Tomlin Is Earning a Full-Time Roster Spot
A bright spot in the loss was the continued emergence of two-way player Nae’Qwan Tomlin. His energy and effectiveness have made him indispensable, with coach Kenny Atkinson quoted as saying, “I can’t take him off the floor.” Tomlin played 32 minutes and was the first Cavalier to score in double figures, bringing a defensive peskiness and relentlessness on the boards that bothers opponents. His strong play is forcing the Cavaliers to consider giving him the 15th and final roster spot, a decision usually reserved for the late-season buyout market. By consistently performing the quintessential role-player duties at a high level, Tomlin is proving he belongs and may be a more valuable asset than any potential external acquisition.
Lonzo Ball’s Shooting Creates a Significant Offensive Problem
Lonzo Ball’s severe shooting struggles are becoming a critical issue. In the game against the Raptors, he shot just 3-of-15 from the field and 2-of-12 from deep, dropping his season 3-point percentage to 28.4%. While he contributes with passing and rebounding, his inability to make shots allows defenses to completely ignore him on the perimeter. This congests the court, making it significantly harder for Donovan Mitchell and Evan Mobley to operate in the paint. The speakers noted that the Ball-Dean Wade pairing has the team’s worst net rating of two-man groups to have played at least 200 minutes together this season. This performance directly contradicts the reason for his acquisition — to be a reliable two-way player who can’t be played off the floor in the playoffs. At his current level, he is becoming that liability.
Donovan Mitchell’s Workload and Role Are Under Scrutiny
Despite being named Eastern Conference Player of the Week, Donovan Mitchell looked “tired” and “exhausted” in a difficult performance. The game highlighted the ongoing debate surrounding his workload and leadership role. On a night where the team was severely shorthanded, playing him 34 minutes, especially in the fourth quarter of a likely loss, was questioned. The discussion centered on Mitchell’s journey to balance taking over as a scorer and facilitating for others. While he is determined to fight through fatigue, the speakers suggested that resting him in such games and allowing younger players to gain experience might be a more prudent long-term strategy for the team and for preserving Mitchell’s energy for the season.
The Raptors’ Style May Be a Blueprint to Beat the Cavs
The podcast raised the strategic concern that the Toronto Raptors’ style of play could be a long-term, problematic matchup for the Cavaliers. The Raptors utilized their length, physicality, and up-tempo pace to disrupt Cleveland’s rhythm. Their defensive strategy — packing the paint, sending double teams at Donovan Mitchell, and forcing other players to make shots — proved highly effective. This forced Mitchell into 12 three-point attempts as he was unable to get to the rim. The hosts compared it to the way the Indiana Pacers previously gave the Cavs trouble, wondering if this physical, switchy, and aggressive defensive style is the new blueprint that other teams will use to neutralize Cleveland’s stars.
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Transcript
NOTE: This transcript was generated by artificial intelligence and could contain misspellings and errors.
Ethan Sands: What up Cavs Nation? I’m your host Ethan Sands and I’m back with another episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. And joining me Tonight, Chris Fedor, cleveland.com Cav Beat reporter and he’s all the way up in the six. Toronto after the Cavs lost their third straight contest to the Toronto Raptors 11099 and Chris, obviously we understand the stipulations of tonight’s game. The Cavs were without a multitude of players, seven to be exact. They had just 10 players available to them and if they wanted to trot out excuses tonight, they’d have plenty to do. So not only were they so hampered by their injuries, but they were on another back to back in another third game in four nights. Chris, I got a lot to say off of tonight’s game, so I want to see what you have taking away from the contest itself.
Chris Fedor: Well, the big thing to me, Ethan, is it was just the second time in the Kenny Atkinson era that the Cavs failed to score 100 points. They scored 99. Now obviously circumstances played part in that, but Kenny Atkinson said it from the very beginning of tonight’s game. He knew that it was going to be a difficult task for them. Toronto rolling seven in a row now, eight in a row. They’re number two in the Eastern Conference. The Cavs were without seven guys, seven every night rotation players. And after the game he felt like, hey, we didn’t have the juice. He said Evan Mobley didn’t have his juice. Donovan Mitchell didn’t have his juice. So for the Cavs it was just one of those games where yeah, they’re going to look at it, they’re going to watch the film. But this is kind of to them anyway a don’t hang your head on anything, throw it away, move forward mentally, take this break of the next three days during Thanksgiving and see if they can be better ready for Friday night against against the Atlanta Hawks. But I, I think we also have to point something out here. Toronto is good. Toronto has a lot of length, they’ve got a lot of physicality and I’m just starting to wonder. I’m not making any definitive conclusions right now. I’m not making sweeping declarations. It’s only November. I’m just wondering, remember last year we were seeing some signs of hey, Indiana might be the kind of team that bothers the Cavs. Indiana with their pressure defense, with their switchiness, with their fast pace, with their free flowing offense, I don’t with their size, their length, their athleticism, their five out the spacing that they can bring offensively. There were just like so many different elements that you saw from a team in Indiana that you started to ask yourself, hey, down the road, could this team be a threat? And as I was watching the game and I understand what the Cavs were missing, I understand the circumstances, but as I was watching the game I was saying to myself, hey, is this the kind of style that can be problematic for the Cavs? The pack, the paint defense, send two at Donovan Mitchell, play with pace, tempo, pick up around the half court, mark, try and be physical, grabby. That kind of defense, taking the Cavs out of their rhythm, pushing them off of their spots, not allowing Evan Mobley to get comfortable, showing him bodies as well. I was just watching the game and saying, stylistically, I wonder, I wonder if that’s going to be the kind of team that is the next one. That is a stylistic personnel matchup that could be problematic for the Cavs down the road.
Ethan Sands: Yeah, Chris, and I don’t want to even take it that far just yet. Then you open up this can of worms of is Detroit a kind of similar style when it comes to the physicality? Right in the Atlanta Hawks, we did this in the summertime. We have this biggest threats list of teams that could be a threat to the Cavs to reach the Eastern Conference Finals or the NBA Finals. And I will admit Toronto wasn’t on mine, but Jimmy watkins, columnist of cleveland.com did have him as a sleeper pick when we were going through preview talks about the season. So I want to give him his credit, but I want to stick to tonight’s game when it comes to our analytically based conversation. And I want to get into the good part of tonight and I only have two things that I said were good from tonight’s game. The first one being the Cavs newest two way signee, Chris Livingston made his debut. I actually had the opportunity to go to a Cleveland Charge game where they were playing against the Wisconsin Herd, the G League affiliate of the Milwaukee Bucks. And I went in part to go see Chris Livingston and Luke Travers because we hadn’t seen them in a while, but also because I wanted to see Victor Oladipo, who was on the Wisconsin Herb and is currently on that team as well. But my initial impression to Chris Livingston was that he needed to be more decisive with his actions. And while playing at a slower pace in the G League, which he was doing in that contest, can help with decision making, the pace of the NBA makes that much more difficult for players, especially those who Are in his case, just three years into the NBA after playing 42 games with the Milwaukee Bucks over the last two seasons and then also trying to figure out how to orchestrate an offense with limited ball handlers and creators on the floor with him, like in tonight’s game. So tonight it felt like he was more meaningful and he had more purpose in all the decisions that he was making. And especially to my point, the important thing for him was not hesitating when there was an opening and getting to the basket and taking what was possible for him and, and drawing a couple of and lunts, which I thought was a positive. When we talk about a two way player and someone who’s not necessarily going to get a whole lot of time with this Cleveland Cavaliers team this season, and I’m going to get to the second two way player in second. But I wanted to hear your thoughts on his impression to you in his debut with the Cavs tonight.
Chris Fedor: I just wonder, Ethan, Kenny Atkinson kind of talked about this post game. Um, it was clear that, that Donovan just didn’t have it the same kind of way that he has recently. And it was clear that Evan Mobley didn’t have it. I just wonder if Kenny would have been better off sticking with the young guys and fresh legs. And if you remember going back to the game against Miami where the Cavs got fined even though they won by 14, they were missing a whole bunch of guys, some were hurt, some were resting, and Kenny had no choice almost but to finish with a young, hungry group that was trying to make a name for themselves, trying to prove themselves, trying to show that they belonged in the rotation. And there was just like a different feel from those guys. And, and I wonder, just based on the circumstances of tonight, if the Cavs would have won this game. They got within four, Donovan went on a mini heater, hit back to back threes, started doing the spider web thing and you know, Scotiabank arena kind of got nervous. They’ve seen the Cleveland Cavaliers, not this version, but the Cleveland Cavaliers before, do this to them and I just wonder, once they pulled it within four, do you just say, all right, we’re going fresh legs, all right, we’re going with the young guys. And whatever the results are, the results are, but the energy that they were playing with, the effort that they were playing with, let’s just see, let’s just see if they can finish this comeback. Ethan. Lonzo Ball. Lonzo Ball played 34 minutes tonight. 34. Now, obviously he didn’t play Sunday against the Clippers, but that is the most that Lonzo has played in a non overtime game since 2022. And that obviously wasn’t the plan. But there is no Darius Garland, there is no Craig Porter Jr. Tyrese Proctor didn’t really have it. He was missing a whole bunch of shots. So Kenny was obviously limited in the number of options that he had tonight going into the game. And then as the game was unfolding, you kind of have to read that Luke Travers kind of became unplayable. Right? Tyrese Proctor wasn’t giving them enough to justify that. So you keep going with Lonzo. But I just wonder in my own mind because it felt like a lot of the Cavs top guys wore down as this game went on. If they should have just closed with a guy like Chris Livingston, if they should have just closed with as many young guys as they thought were capable.
Ethan Sands: When you’re writing your game story, I’m making notes for the podcast every night. I I come with a list of what I think is the most important topics and obviously I have my sectioned off things when it comes to my layout for today’s podcast. And it was the good, why it wasn’t so good and the bad. And I don’t want to get into the bad just yet. But to the point that you were just making, this is one of those nights where Donovan Mitchell does not need to play 33 minutes, right? This is one of those nights that Evan Mobley needs to take in a different Persona. This is a whole different conversation and we’re going to get into it later in the show. But I do think you’re absolutely right. And because Jimmy Watkins isn’t here, I’m going to say it for him. This is one of those games where you could have let go of the rope if you’re Donovan Mitchell and allowed yourself to see what else you’re worthy with. And obviously we had this conversation with Donovan after the latest game in Rockin arena against the Clippers just on Sunday night about him finding this balance, about trying to figure out whether or not what the team needs is what he can do or if he needs to just go all in on what he’s capable of. And that’s another part of what I have planned for today’s podcast. But I do want to get into your second point about going into the fresh legs and giving players more minutes who deserve it. And Naquan Tomlin is a player who not only is becoming more and more deserving of minutes. As we’ve seen, he played 32 minutes tonight, but maybe of simply a roster spot. Chris and the Cavs only have one roster spot left that would be filling their 15th roster spot. Kenny Atkinson has already thrown out the thought about Naquan Tomlin in playoff scenarios. He’s currently ineligible for the playoffs on a two way contract and the Cavs over the last two seasons have reserved that spot, the 15 spot of their roster and for late season acquisitions off the buyout market. And if you remember correctly, Marcus Morris senior and Javante Green were those acquisitions and I think that cannot go unnoticed. But I think the Cavs also have to understand what they have. Could be a diamond in the rough, right? A player that not only on a two way contract but coming from college is a, is an undrafted player as a player who grew up not playing high school ball but has all of the intangibles that they witnessed in previous playoff series that could help them in the playoffs. And I think the Cavs should probably make the decision on whether or not they’re going to add him to the 15th roster spot before the trade deadline closes. And I think it’s kind of a similar situation to what happened with Craig Porter Jr. In recent years where he was on a two way contract and then they got a standard four year contract with a club option. What do you think about Naquan Tomlin’s overall impact but also the potential for Naquan to become a full time roster spot for this team?
Chris Fedor: Well, it’s only November 24th, but I will say this Ethan, that he is earning it. He is doing the things that he needs to do to make the Cavs consider that and they won’t make that decision until they absolutely have to. There’s no rush on that kind of decision. He’s under contract with them, he’s on a two way contract, he’s not going anywhere. They like the flexibility, they like the optionality and if they get to a point where they say, hey, this is somebody that we want on our playoff roster potentially, then I think they’ll make that decision. They have shown in the past that if the guy earns it, if the guy is worthy of that spot, they’re not going to hesitate on that. The other thing that they have to consider is okay, who else is out there? What other free agents are out there? Who else could be a potential fit based on the way that we want to play at both ends of the floor? And would that guy be theoretically better than somebody like Naeguan who we’ve already invested in, who we already have seen in our system? We’ve already seen have a level of success. Those are the conversations that the Cavs are certainly going to have to make if Nequon continues to play with this kind of effort, this kind of intensity, this kind of energy and this kind of effectiveness. He was the first player from the Cavs to score in double figures tonight. Kenny Atkinson said after the game, I want to read this quote because I think it was very, very interesting. He just continues to gush about Naquan. He said, quote, I can’t take him off the floor. It’s like you want him on the floor because he can defend his position. He’s got great energy, he’s flying. Especially in a game like this where it becomes a spirit speed game. He can get back in transition, he can do damage in offensive transition. And then Kenny said, quote, I’m just pinching myself because that guy’s going to help us. It feels like he’s going to help us win some big games. I feel like he really belongs, he fits with these guys. And again, this is what Naquan has to do. If you’re on a two way contract, you almost take the decision out of the organization’s hands. You give them no choice. Naquan has already almost given Kenny no choice but to put him in this rotation. Naquan has already given Kenny no choice but at times to consider him in the starting lineup. Think about how successful the Cavs were. Think about what their record was when Dean Wade was in the starting lineup last year or over his time with the Cavs and when, when Kenny has had to make the decision. If DeAndre’s out, if Jared Allen’s out and you move Evan Mobley, it hasn’t been Dean Wade this year, right? Like in years past, it’s been Dean, but this year it’s been either Jaylon Tyson or Naquan Tomlin. Because these young guys are nudging their way up the depth chart with their consistency, not just in terms of their production, but Kenny has an understanding that if I go to this guy, maybe the shots aren’t going to fall, but the things that we’re asking them to do, the things that make them the quintessential role player for the Cavs, they’re doing those and they’re doing those at a high level and that’s all you can really ask for. I think teams get bothered by Naquan. I think they get bothered by his length, his peskiness, his relentlessness on the boards, and he has become a big time asset for the Cavs. From that perspective Late in the game, he was guarding Brandon Ingram like, it’s a whole throw him into the fire thing. See what he can handle, what he can’t handle. But, man, what a big step that was. And the other thing is, he hit two threes. So if he’s going to knock down open shots, if he’s going to run in transition, if he’s going to rebound relentlessly, if he’s going to defend, he’s a switchable defender, he’s long, he’s athletic. Yeah, I think he’s going to make this front office have a really difficult decision on what they’re going to do in terms of his contract. And they’re probably just going to end up saying to themselves, hey, like, nobody else out there can give us more than what this guy potentially could.
Ethan Sands: One, Naquan Tomlin had Scotty Barnes arguing with the refs about calls during the game.
Chris Fedor: Every single game for the Rafters. He’s got. He’s got that look down like, what? Me? Are you serious?
Ethan Sands: I committed a foul. Even after that, like, Scotty, like, had gotten the foul call and just turned around and was, like, giving the motion of what Naquan had done. I don’t think it was accurate, but he was literally, like, trying to conversate. And that is like, a mental edge that players have, right? They’re thinking about what you might be able to get away with, what you might be able to do to them to prevent them from being successful. And obviously, Brandon Ingram had a great game. Scotty Barnes is again, outclass Evan Mobley, and we’ll get there. But I do think that Naquan Tomlin just brings a certain level of competitive spirit that the Cavs have not had in a playoff environment. Obviously, Max Druse exists, Sam Mero exists. But this level of I will do what I have to do is a different level than I feel like we’ve seen in the past. And obviously, naquan Craig Porter Jr. I wrote about this for the site. They bring that different level of edge. And Obviously, Craig Porter Jr. Is a little bit more composed than Naquan Tomlin in some of those moments. But sometimes you need that kind of fiery young head to come in and throw some bows if need be. But I want to get into the negative, and I’m going to start with the most positive negative I can for tonight’s show. And that’s Lonzo Ball. He gave you a real mix of that good and bad, Chris. He dropped seven assists and grabbed seven boards. And that part tracks with what and who he’s been all year. It has not been about his scoring. It’s been about the connective passing, the push and transition and the helper role that Lonzo Ball has been in to start the season. So with many guys out, it felt like Lonzo Ball decided that he had to take shots even when the looks were only slightly open. Chris, it felt like he was taking step back jumpers on every possession that he was shooting the ball. He finished 3 of 15 from the field and 2 of 12 from deep. He came in as a 30.4% three point shooter. Just 21 makes on 69 attempts. He leaves tonight as a 28.4% three point shooter. And honestly, I knew this could show up because of what we saw in the Knicks game in the first game of the season where he was what, one of seven from the field or one of seven from deep? So let me make this clear as day. I could go the rest of the season without seeing Lonzo Ball take more than seven shots. That’s not his job, that’s not his role on this team, and it doesn’t help this team. He’s not a threat from deep at this point in his career, but he is a threat as a passer and as a driver, even though that’s not necessarily an aspect of his game that he leans on heavily. We’ve seen it with Darius Garland. The paint touches are huge for this team, but to me, if he’s going to settle for step back threes on every given possession and and miss them, his entire impact in the half court shrinks. Because I want to be very clear about this, it’s in the half court that his impact would shrink. It doesn’t erase his transition value, but teams are going to sag off him.
Chris Fedor: And already doing that.
Ethan Sands: That’s what I’m saying. Him and Dean Wade on the floor together as a pairing. Chris, they’re sagging off both of them. And when you put these two on the court, Kenny Atkinson has done this for a majority of the beginning part of the season. This two pairing lineup has played 221 minutes together through 14 games on the floor. They have a net rating of 4.9. That’s the worst two man group of any Cavs pairing that has played at least 200 minutes together. And I’m really curious, Chris, to see how Kenyaki SA handles that pair when the roster is fully healthy because it does not feel like this is something that is sustainable for the success of this team.
Chris Fedor: All right, so earlier this year, Donovan Mitchell and a Couple of the other guys in the locker room kept saying over and over and over again, I don’t care what Lonzo Ball shoots. He’s doing all these other things. He helps us in this way. He helps us in this way. He helps us in this way. At some point they’re going to have to care about what Lonzo shoots because it is going to change how they’re being defended. It’s going to change how teams defend Donovan Mitchell, if it’s Donovan Mitchell and Lonzo Ball out there together. There are a couple plays in the fourth quarter where, you know, the Cavs were running a two man game with Lonzo and Donovan and there were two defensive breakdowns by the Raptors where as the play was unfolding, I’m thinking to myself, why are you leaving Donovan to go at Lonzo? If he’s going to take a step back three to the left, then so be it. But it was a good play and it led to back to back threes by Donovan. But that was more about the defensive breakdown from the Raptors. As the season goes on, if Lonzo’s not making his shots at a high enough clip, those kinds of plays aren’t going to be there. They’re not going to leave Donovan. Or if Donovan runs some pick and roll stuff like with Lonzo, with Lonzo as the screen setter, guess what? Both guys are just going to go to Donovan. Or if Donovan’s just running any kind of action, then the defender that’s closest to Lonzo is going to go toward Donovan or he’s going to go toward Evan, or he’s going to try and keep Jared Allen off the glass. Whatever the case may be, whatever that extra defender feels like is best for him. Um, it just, it’s, it’s not good enough from Lonzo from three point range. Um, I, I don’t think he’s this level shooter. I don’t. I, I think he’s more like in the range of 36 to 38 from 3. But he’s gonna have to show that at some point. At some point his impact is going to be somewhat neutralized by the fact that he just can’t make shots and defenses just aren’t going to respect him. He can do all the stuff with the passing, he can do all the rebounding, he can do all the hit aheads. But if it restricts the Cavs offense and it congests the court and I think it could start doing that, if he doesn’t turn this around from outside, then it becomes problematic and Then if. If the Cavs are full strength, then maybe some of those minutes go to Craig Porter Jr. Maybe some of those minutes go more toward Darius Garland, and he just. Kenny Atkinson feels like he can’t have Lonzo out for as long a stretches as maybe he would want to, to take advantage of all the other good things that Lonzo brings to the table, and he does bring other good things. But if that shot doesn’t start to fall and teams continue to disrespect him the way that they have shown, then it just makes it more difficult for this Cavs offense. And that’s one of the things that we’ve seen through the first month of this regular season, that things have been more difficult for this Cavs offense, certainly more difficult than they were last year when it felt like everything came easy to them. And if they’re looking to try and keep the floor from being as cluttered and give Evan Mobley more space and give Donovan Mitchell more space and Darius Garland more space to drive to the basket, you know, one of the things that they might have to consider is take Lonzo and limit his minutes. I don’t think the Cavs want to get to that point. I think they want to give him an opportunity to shoot his way out of this and to continue to get his legs underneath him and all these other things. But, man, it’s bad. I mean, how many times throughout the course of a game when Lonzo shoots, do you, as a Cavs fan, if you’re just watching the game, do you feel like that thing’s going in? I can’t imagine it’s much I could.
Ethan Sands: Tell you from a reporter’s perspective, Chris. It don’t feel like much to me. And even for teammates, it might start feeling like that Lonzo ball took a shot when there was like a foul call or the play stopped or whatever happened, and Donovan Mitchell knew who was shooting the ball and immediately covered the jet. The ball didn’t go in. It either was an air ball or it hit off the rim and it came toward Donovan. So he was right to think that way. And I think that can’t be the overall perception, especially if. If the Cavs are saying, we don’t care what he shoots. I’m sorry if Lonzo and Dean are both struggling and you were supposed to replace Isaac Okoro with one of these players, particularly on the defensive end, and they’re not producing offensively, especially as a 3 and G player. Now you’re having these conversations on whether or not the train was successful. You’re having these conversations on whether or not it was worth it. And of course course we are not there yet because this is a playoff conversation and Isaac Burrow wasn’t able to perform in the playoffs and we have not gotten there yet. But if this trend continues, we will have to have those conversations.
Chris Fedor: The whole idea behind the Lonzo acquisition was this is a guy who can’t get played off the floor in a playoff environment. This is a guy who gives us something offensively. A combination of shooting, playmaking, vision, high basketball iq, fits in a movement based offense. So he gives us that. And then defensively he’s disruptive, he’s got a nose for the basketball, he’s in passing lanes. So the whole idea was we’re going to replace Ty Jerome and Isaac Okoro, two guys who became unplayable at times last year in the playoffs, got played out of the rotation last year in the playoffs. We’re going to replace those guys with guys who we believe are two way guys, guys we believe cannot get played off the floor in the playoffs. This version of Alonzo Ball that we have seen through the first 19 games gets played off the floor in the playoffs. Period.
Ethan Sands: He does okay. Moving on to these next two players and obviously Chris, you know who they are. Donovan Mitchell, Evan Mobley. And on the same day that Donovan Mitchell was named Eastern Conference Player of the Week, he did not have it. He looked tired, he looked exhausted and you could feel it. He didn’t get anything going for him until the fourth quarter. He spent most of the night trying to basically be Darius Garland and facilitate for the Cavs. And Darius Garland hinted earlier this season that the Cavs just need Donovan to be him. And obviously I said this earlier, Donovan Mitchell is still learning a part of his leadership journey and part of figuring out what this Cavs needs on any given night is finding a balance between getting his not making that look like hero ball, making it flow in the offense, but also not getting away from who he is while trying to empower others at the same time. And Darius Garland had a powerful quote.
Darius Garland: The SPIDA that we know, MVP that we know, first team, All India that we know Nahee should be every year and we really need that to go forward. He’s starting to realize that. But he also wants us to do our thing as well. So it’s a give and take type of thing with Don, but we really need Donovan.
Chris Fedor: Go beat Don.
Ethan Sands: That is exactly what this Cavs team has kind of been figuring out with Donovan Mitchell. Can he play 33 minutes a night do you need to pull back? What level of yourself are you capable of giving us every single night? And I think that’s also part of the battle of Donovan Mitchell’s minutes and workload, but also when he takes rest nights. And yes, I do still believe that Donovan Mitchell should have rested more tonight. Maybe not have played as much in the fourth quarter or at all. So Evan Mobley could have seen what he was capable of on the floor. And I’ll get there again. But I do think that Donovan Mitchell is also trying to find out how much he can fight through fatigue. This is a player who continues to look back at the Indiana Pacer series, either innately or actually watching the video, even if he doesn’t want to admit it. Because there’s one play that sticks out to Donovan Mitchell in his mind. It’s the inbound play where Max Druce and Ty Jerome were not able to get the ball into the floor, floor, and Donovan Mitchell was too tired to move. That’s a fatigue thing. In this entire season, he’s talked about mentally, I need to be able to fight through fatigue. Remember what his statement is, Don. And his nickname does not just stand for what he’s called on the floor. Obviously, that’s Spider Don. Determination over negativity. This is a player who is not only looking at this as a motto for his life, but also how he attacks the game of basketball. And so tonight’s contest raised a lot of different questions for me when it comes to should he have played? Was this smart, or was this Donovan trying to figure out where he was at physically? Because we’ve heard throughout the entirety of the season that he’s been in the best shape that he has been and is one of the top guards in the league. And I’m still not arguing with that over just one bad contest.
Chris Fedor: I also don’t think we can ignore the fact that on these kinds of nights when the Cavs are incredibly depleted and shorthanded and they don’t have the kind of offensive weaponry, it’s. It’s. It’s more difficult on Donovan because of the attention that he’s going to get from a defense and because of the strategies that the defense is able to use. Um, when the Cavs are at full strength, the whole idea is they’ve got to make a choice. Are they gonna guard Donovan with two guys and then let a team that is capable play 4 on 3? Are they going to blitz Donovan? Are they gonna pack the paint? Which defender are they going to use on Donovan? All of those questions become a lot more difficult when he shares the floor with Darius Garland and DeAndre Hunter and Evan Mobley and guys that are more capable. So tonight, obviously Toronto was able to use a specific strategy and that was in part because of who Donovan was sharing the floor with. The whole idea was, okay, we’re going to make other guys prove that they can beat us. We’re going to make other guys prove that they can make shots. You know, Naquan Tomlin made shots, Jaylon Tyson made shots. But if you’re Toronto over the course of a 48 minute game, you just live with that and you continue to use your strategy of try to make things as difficult on Donovan Mitchell as possible. And he wasn’t able to get to the paint. They packed the paint. They’ve got a lot of life, they’ve got a lot of athleticism, they’ve got switchy guys that can keep the ball in front of them. So I think part of his struggle tonight was who he was sharing the floor with. And he was 6 of 20 from the field overall. And if you look at it, 12 of those shots came from three point range because he just couldn’t get to the paint. Some of that was tired legs. The other part of that was Toronto’s smart defensive strategy of trying to keep him out of the paint and not worrying as much about the other Cavs players burning them because they didn’t believe over the course of the 48 minute game that those players, the others, the quote unquote others would do that consistently enough for the Cavs to steal a game. And they were right. The Cavs scored 99 points. So I don’t think we can overlook that fact. The other thing is it becomes tough for Donovan when everybody else was already out because of injury or for rest. There’s only so many guys that the Cavs can do that with. So I think there are going to be other times as this schedule goes on. Hey look, they’ve got another back to back shortly after Thanksgiving, the Boston game at home in India, on the road. Maybe one of those is a Donovan rest night as opposed to a DeAndre Hunter rest night. So it’s all about the Cavs as an organization in conjunction with Donovan, picking and choosing. When’s he going to play, When’s he not going to play? What works best based on the other personnel that we have out there? I just, I think the workload of Donovan on a night like tonight, I think that’s the question that I have, that’s the criticism that I have. It Felt like the game started slipping away from the Cavs late in the first half, toward the end of the second quarter. So if you’re Kenny Atkinson, you say, all right, let’s see if we can get it within striking. It was 14 at the end of the third quarter. So I think at that point you just say, you know what, maybe don’t push it. As I talked about at the beginning of the podcast, let the young guys, let them have that experience, pressure packed moments, game of consequence, see if they can figure it out against the number two team in the Eastern Conference. So I think that was to me the unnecessary aspect, not the fact that he played because I don’t think the Cavs had much of a choice tonight. I think they had to play him. And there are, like I said, going to be other rest nights that are dedicated to Donovan. It’s just they weren’t, they weren’t as capable of doing that based on who else made the trip to Toronto. But I do think that the workload that Donovan had, it’s not just the 34 minutes, it’s how hard he had to work for the Cavs to generate any kind of offense. In the locker room after the game, he just looked exhausted.
Ethan Sands: And Chris, I wasn’t say that Donovan shouldn’t have played. Obviously if he didn’t play it would have triggered another a hundred thousand dollars fine. But what I’m saying is I don’t think he should have played in the fourth quarter, which is what you’ve been alluding to, right? Instead I think Evan Mobley should have played. I think Evan Mobley should have led that group. I think Evan Mobley alongside other big men, Chris Livingston, 6 foot 6, Naquan Tomlin, 6 foot 10, other big guys to go up against a lengthy, fiery, determined Scotty Barnes and Toronto Raptors team, I think that would have helped him, especially on a night where he had one shot attempt in the fourth quarter quarter he struggled once again and wasn’t nearly aggressive enough. It’s not the fact that he had a bad game because statistically no, because he was 5 of 7 from the field overall. But without Jaren Allen, in a matchup where Toronto was rolling out two big board crashers and Jacob Pearl who had 13 rebounds and Scotty Barnes, who we know Evan Mobley always gets up for playing against, had 11 rebounds, Evan finished with five rebounds. And to me it’s not just the number, Chris, it’s how it looked. And I’ve continuously said this on the podcast before, but the amount of times that he’s been watching the ball come off the rim instead of reacting or literally looking for someone else to go after the ball while opponents are already moving in. It’s detrimental in the case that we just were talking about to what Donovan Mitchell is doing because we know that he’s willing to put his body on the line for this team and do whatever it takes to come up with a rebound, particularly knowing that Jared Allen’s out. And now, of course, Donovan didn’t have a whole lot of rebounds tonight, but on a recent podcast, I talked about how he had eight in the Clippers game nine in a recent game 15 against the Miami Heat. Like, his rebounding numbers have been an outlier for him because of what this Cavs team has needed. But from a player like Evan Mobley, who again, was supposed to be the second best player on the court, Chris. Not on his own team, on the entire court, there was no urgency from him and it hasn’t been there for a majority of the season. I’m going to say something that might come off harsh to me. I believe it to be true. Evan Mobley is not a good rebounder because of instincts or physicality. Evan Mobley is a decent rebounder. He gets by on rebounding because he’s tall. And to be honest, more credit has to be given to Jared Allen for doing the dirty work and boxing guys out so Evan can go and grab rebounds. That’s part of the the benefit for Evan for being a help side defender when Jared Allen was on the court and we saw that tonight when it comes to the defensive structure of this team. How many times, Chris, did you see Toronto just get to the rim because Evan Mobley was on the perimeter? Yeah, that was ridiculous to me because his job, or what the Cavs have been known for in their principles for the defensive identity, is funneling players to the post. That can’t happen if Evan Mobley’s not on the block protecting the rim. And I just think there were different things that Kenny Atkinson could have done. There were different things that Evan Mobley could have done. But to me, overall, I just think that Kenny Atkinson and Evan Mobley need to get on a better page of figuring out how to utilize him as a rebounder and defensively. Because again, if you’re the defensive player of the year, the only way to end a defensive possession is by grabbing a rebound. And some people might have actually looked at the stat line tonight and realized that that is something that they are still dealing with.
Chris Fedor: Beyond that, he cannot take one more shot than Luke Travers. This can’t happen. He can’t take two more shots than Chris Livingston, who played 14 minutes. He can’t take two fewer shots than Tyrese Proctor, who played 19 minutes and 32 seconds. And the Cavs are going to have to start helping Evan. They’re going to have to start putting him in better spots. They’re going to have to start getting him the ball in places where he can be more comfortable. He’s just working so hard on the offensive end of the floor, and I just don’t think he can consistently get shots off. And it’s a problem. This is a night where it should have been Donovan Mitchell, Evan Mobley at the center of the Cavs offensive attack. Now, look, I asked Kenny Atkinson about it after the game. I asked Donovan Mitchell about it after the game. I said, evan took seven shots. What are you gonna do to make sure that he gets more like, come on, seven. And Donovan said it was tough, especially on a night like tonight, because Toronto was able to use the same kind of, generally speaking, the same kind of defensive strategy because of who was out there and who wasn’t out there. And Evan’s not as accomplished as Donovan of dribbling out of pick and roll and taking some of these contested pull up shots. Like, Donovan’s able to do those things. Evan has to find his opportunities in a different kind of way. And he wasn’t able to do that against the Raptors. He just wasn’t able to do that. So Donovan liked the fact that Evan kept trying to make the right play because the Raptors weren’t allowing him to get to his spots. The Raptors weren’t allowing him to get comfortable. They were throwing multiple defenders at him. So he didn’t think it was necessary for Evan to force it. He liked the fact that Evan was trying to make the right play. It’s just that when he made the right play, the guys that he made the right play to just weren’t capitalizing and making those shots. And that allowed the Raptors to say, okay, we’re going to keep sticking with this plan because we’re not getting burned by it. That was Donovan’s view of it. But he can’t take just seven shots. Like, I don’t care what the circumstances are. I don’t care what the defense is doing. If this is a guy that this organization has talked about as being Robin to Donovan Mitchell’s Batman, or maybe one day Batman, if this is a guy that this organization has talked about, maybe one day being top five player in the entire NBA in the MVP conversation, these kinds of nights just can’t happen. And this is part of his growth process of trying to figure it out. Okay, what are they taking away from me? What kinds of things are they doing? How can I still try and put my imprint on this game? How can I still try and be an effective and accomplished offensive player? How can I find my way? That’s what the greats do. Over the course of 48, LeBron has talked about it. Donovan Mitchell has talked about it. Over the course of the 48, you read the game, you try to make adjustments, you try to do different things. One quarter it may be one thing. Another quarter, it may be another thing. But on a night like tonight, with so many guys missing, for Evan to play with that, it was kind of a lackadaisical approach. Kenny Atkinson said he didn’t have the juice, but he looked timid out there. He looked like he didn’t believe in his offensive game. It looked like he didn’t feel like he could do the things that he needed to do on the offensive end to get to the spots where he wanted to get to. And that becomes a problem. And I do think, again, like I said, I do think the Cavs have to reexamine this. Where are we getting him the ball? How comfortable is he playing outside the three point line versus inside the three point line? How comfortable is he initiating in the pick and roll? How comfortable is he if he’s got to take 3 or 4 dribbles as opposed to 1 or 2 dribbles? Like all of these things, they have to really, really examine and they have to figure this out with Evan because as I said, when you get into a situation, it’s a seven game series, it’s a playoff environment. Teams are going to prey on your weaknesses. Teams are going to do different things on the defensive end of the floor, maybe creative things the way that the Raptors did. And you have to find a way. You have to find a way. And he’s just not consistently finding a way. And it’s, it’s getting to a point where, like I said, I think the Cavs have to reexamine just how they deploy him within the offense. And look, we have also seen Ethan and this can’t be ignored. We have seen how sharing the floor with Darius Garland opens things up for Evan. But there are going to be times where he’s not on the floor with Darius. There are going to be times where Darius might be injured. Whatever the case may be, he just, there was a Quote from a scout during a recent interview that they had with with Tim Bontemps from ESPN talking about like where all the teams are in the NBA and the scout said that he’s not getting overly concerned with anything that he’s seen from the Cavs, but they need Evan to be at a place that he’s just not at. And, and I think tonight was another example of that. He’s just not there yet.
Ethan Sands: Yeah, Chris, and I think this cast team is over reliant on having certain players on the floor at all times. And as we’ve known, as we’ve seen for the recent Cavs playoff history, they haven’t been healthy. And also understanding that as you mentioned, not every time that Evan Mobley is going to be on the floor, Darius Garland is going to be there or Donovan Mitchell, DeAndre Hunter. Right. So figuring out a way to help him be successful even when he doesn’t have the star players next to him is important. Especially because if teams get to the playoffs and are going to play against Evan Mobley, they can have pet sets for who is on the floor for him because of what they’re seeing now and the struggles. But that’s why it’s an 82 game season. There’s still more room for growth. There’s still an opportunity for him to get better and learn from mistakes and learn from where he’s at in his career and where he’s at on the floor offensively currently to try and help himself put into a better situation when it comes to the playoffs and not be as predictable for playoffs when it comes to how these teams are going to approach him and approach how they go against him when it comes to every defensive scheme or simply what makes him uncomfortable. Because I think that’s the biggest thing that we’ve talked about with this Cavs team is adaptability and their ability to be unpredictable when they’re being successful and if they’re able to grow that. It largely in part starts with Evan Mobley and what he’s able to do when it comes to expanding his game. And I think that’s part of the reason why he wanted to grow his mid range game. But he has to get back to the basics, grow his confidence at the basket, at the three point line and especially at the free throw line to then get to this point where he’s back to being the player that we know and then again expanding his game if the Cavs have time for him to do so. But if not, finding ways to utilize him in the ways where he is most successful because I think Evan Mobley, as we’ve mentioned on this podcast and abundance, is the player that can lift the ceiling of this team. But he has to be comfortable with what he’s capable of at the rim, at the three point line and at the elbow extended rather than just trying to do too much in his game. He has to get back to the nuances of what he’s capable of at this point in his career rather than trying to do too much.
Chris Fedor: There are just certain defenders, Ethan, where I ask myself, does Evan believe in himself enough that he can beat these guys off the dribble? And I think in many cases the answer to that is no. That he just doesn’t trust his handle enough, that he just doesn’t trust the polish to his offensive game. So make it so that he doesn’t have to beat these guys off the triple. Allow him at times to play in the post, allow him at times to face up the Chris Bosh spot, the old Kevin Garnett spot, the Anthony Davis spot. That might be the place for Evan. And I know that that’ll change the spacing of this team. I know it’ll change how they function in some ways offensively. But if so much of this season is is about Evan and building him up and getting him to be confident in getting him to become this certain kind of player where they can rely on him as an offensive focal point, then it may be time to say, you know what, some of these things may be different, but it might be the best thing for Evan because when he tries to beat certain guys off the dribble, he just not able to do it. And it ends up with him stopping, picking up the ball and like resetting the offense. And I don’t know that that creates great offensive flow either. And look, it’s early, it’s one month into the season. This is a long experiment, but I think part of an experiment is seeing what doesn’t work. Just like you want to see what works, you want to see what doesn’t work and then make adjustments based off of that.
Ethan Sands: And with all that being said, that’ll wrap up today’s episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. But remember to become a Cavs insider and interact with Chris, me and Jimmy by subscribing to subtext. Sign up for a 14 day free trial or visit cleveland.com/cavs and click on the blue bar at the top of the page. This is where you can submit it. Your hey Chris, questions for this week. We’re only going to do two more episodes when it comes to this week because it’s Thanksgiving and we are going to make sure that you get your Hate Chris questions in. But if you don’t like doing that, that’s fine. All you have to do is text the word stop to cancel your subtext subscription. We can tell you that the people who sign up stick around because they this is the best way to get insider coverage on the Cavs from me, Chris, and Jimmy. This isn’t just our podcast, it’s your podcast. And the only way to have your voice heard is through subtext. Y’ all be safe. We out.