CLEVELAND, Ohio — In this episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast, Ethan Sands and Chris Fedor answer questions from Subtext subscribers, focusing on Kenny Atkinson’s start to the season. They dig into his rotations, his experimental decisions, and how the Cavs’ avalanche of injuries has shaped everything around him.
Takeaways:
Kenny Atkinson’s Coaching Performance Under Duress
The hosts argue that any criticism of head coach Kenny Atkinson is largely overblown, given the difficult circumstances he has navigated. They point to the fact that the team has been forced to use 11 different starting lineups in its first 19 games due to significant injuries to key players like Darius Garland and Max Strus. Despite this roster instability and a deliberate plan to experiment with lineups, the Cavs hold a 12-7 record and sit fourth in the Eastern Conference, a feat described as a “minor miracle.” Atkinson is also credited with the successful player development of younger talents like Jaylon Tyson, Nae’Qwan Tomlin, and Sam Merrill, who have stepped into meaningful roles. The consensus is that Atkinson, the reigning Coach of the Year, has not suddenly become a poor coach but is managing a fluid situation effectively.
The Strategic Experimentation with Evan Mobley
A key part of the team’s early-season strategy has been a focus on “process over results,” particularly regarding the development of Evan Mobley. The coaching staff is intentionally exploring Mobley’s offensive potential outside the paint, testing his ability to be a “playmaking wing type” or “point forward.” While acknowledging that the results have been mixed and have contributed to a “clunky” offense at times, the hosts explain this is a purposeful experiment. The organization already knows Mobley is a great player around the rim; this process is about discovering if he has other untapped skills that can be crucial for long-term playoff success. If the experiment fails, the team can revert to using him in his traditional role, but they feel it’s necessary to explore his full potential now.
Darius Garland’s Dual-Edged Impact on the Team
While acknowledging that the Cavaliers are a “dynamic, prolific offensive team” when Darius Garland is on the floor, his overall importance to a championship run is questioned due to his defensive shortcomings. Analytically, Garland has been a negative defender throughout his career and is viewed by opponents as an “exploitable matchup” in high-stakes games. During a previous playoff series, members of the Miami Heat explicitly stated their game plan was to “attack him over and over again.” The central question is whether his elite offensive contributions can overshadow his defensive liabilities in a seven-game series. This is why Evan Mobley, with his game-changing defensive impact, is still considered the player who more directly controls the team’s ultimate championship ceiling.
Young Players Emerge, Creating Future Rotation Dilemmas
The numerous injuries have provided opportunities for younger players, and several have made a strong case for permanent rotation minutes. Jaylon Tyson is highlighted for his energy and defensive switchability, while Nae’Qwan Tomlin has been praised for his rebounding instincts. However, Chris Fedor singles out Craig Porter Jr. as a player who has earned a spot through his performance. After being challenged by Atkinson in the offseason to improve his conditioning and professionalism, Porter Jr. has delivered with reliable offense, stout defense, and poise. It is argued that the team cannot simply remove him from the rotation once healthy, as he has earned his place and doing so could damage the player-coach dynamic. This success creates a positive but complex math problem for distributing minutes when the roster is at full strength.
Scrutiny on Lonzo Ball’s Role Amidst Shooting Struggles
Veteran guard Lonzo Ball, acquired for his playoff-level IQ and playmaking, is facing scrutiny for his poor shooting performance. Statistically, the Cavaliers are a significantly better team when he is off the floor, with a net rating of plus-6.1 compared to just plus-1.2 when he is on. His inefficiency from 3-point range is allowing defenses to sag off him, which congests the floor and hinders the offense. The coaching staff, which is heavily data-driven, must be monitoring this trend. If Ball’s struggles continue, there is a belief that his minutes could be reduced in favor of more efficient players like Craig Porter Jr., presenting a difficult decision regarding a player who was brought in specifically for his postseason value.
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Transcript
NOTE: This transcript was generated by artificial intelligence and could contain misspellings and errors.
Ethan Sands: What up Cavs Nation? I’m your host Ethan Sands and I’m back with another episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. And of course we cannot do this week’s rendition of the hey Chris podcast without Chris Fedor himself. So he’s joining us and of course made the trip back from to Cleveland from Toronto. It is a holiday week podcast so this is going to be our third of four this week, but we wanted to make sure that we could get you guys your questions answered as we do every week. And the only way you can do that is by subscribing to Subtext 14 days free, 3.99amonth and is a great deal where you can get conversation with me, Chris And Jimmy Watkins, cleveland.com’s on a daily basis and we throw stats at you, analysis and live game reactions for whatever is going on in the land of Cleveland. But here we go. Let’s get into the first question of today’s hey Chris episode. Ben Wye in Akron asks hey Chris, how do you evaluate Kenny Atkinson’s coaching job so far this season? Personally, I think it has been a mixed bag and I think if our record was worse he would have more pressure and heat on him. I don’t think he has managed Evans role well and has taken away some of his confidence. Think about how he gave him increased opportunities for the first five games then yanked it away after a couple rough ones and now it seems like Evan has lost his confidence completely. I think he has mismanaged Evan Mobley and also Jared Allen this season. Chris starting off strong here. Ben Y in Akron, what do you think?
Chris Fedor: Look, I mean I think you can point to certain things that every coach does around the NBA and you can say well I don’t like that or they should have done this different. But you just have to ask yourself on the whole, with all of the circumstances surrounding every decision that’s being made, how is the guy doing? And with Kenny, first of all, we have to point out that he’s the reigning coach of the year. They won 64 games in the regular season. They had a historic, historically great offense. He didn’t just become dumb overnight, it didn’t happen. So there are circumstances tied to some of the things that people have an issue with pertaining to Kenny. And one of those things, Ethan, is he came into this year and he said I’m going to experiment. I’m going to take short term losses in some case, short term failure in some case if it means we could potentially benefit in the long term. So I I think the Cavs are just in a situation organizationally where they’re not chasing wins and they’re not chasing results. They’re focusing on the process. And it is true about how he has handled Evan Mobley. And I think it’s fair to wonder, is it the best thing for the Cavs? Is it the best thing for Evan? Has he been mismanaged? Is he being used the best possible way? But part of that also ties into the fact that there’s only one way that the Cavs can find out what Evan Mobley can do and what he can’t do, right? How comfortable can he be outside on the perimeter? You don’t know that answer unless you explore that to the depths that you need to. And the results haven’t been great. To this point, Evan’s basically been the same guy that he was last year. The Cavs offense has fallen outside the top 10, but it was a purposeful thing because they wanted to explore that with Evan, just to see, is it in there? Can he be more of a playmaking wing type? Can he be more of a point forward type? How comfortable can he be if we take him away from the rim? Because the Cavs learned last year a lot of stuff about themselves, a lot of stuff about their system, a lot of stuff about their individual players. Now it’s about exploring that further, and some of that’s going to be failure, and it’s going to look, quote, unquote, clunky at times, and there are going to be growing pains with that. But the Cavs know that Evan Mobley is a great player around the hoop. They’ve seen that for how many years right now? And it doesn’t mean that they don’t acknowledge that. It doesn’t mean that they don’t say, see that. It doesn’t mean that eventually they won’t make adjustments, but they want to learn. Okay, can he do other stuff? Is there other untapped stuff within Evan Mobley that we can pull out of him? And if the answer is no, the answer is no. And they just go back to using Evan in a similar way that they did last year. So I. I think a lot of this stuff pertaining to Kenny is overblown, honestly. And you. You can’t ignore the fact, Ethan, that the Cavs have been forced to use 11, 11 different starting lineups in the first 19 games. And one of their leaders in minutes played before he had a concussion was Jalen Tyson, who was out of the rotation completely last year, who played 453 total minutes as a rookie. That’s what Kenny has been dealing with. That’s what Kenny has been trying to navigate. Darius Garland has played how many games? Five. Max Drus hasn’t played any. And you’re using guys. You’re being forced to use guys. And some of this is about experimentation as well. You’re using guys like Naquan Tomlin, Luke Traverse, Tyrese Proctor. Like I said, the minute load of Jaylon Tyson. These are meaningful regular season games. You can say that some of them have more consequence than others. But this isn’t like the dog days of the NBA. We’re not there yet in the schedule. And these are the guys that Kenny is using because in some cases he has to. So given all of that, the fact that The Cavs are 12 and 7 right now and fourth in the Eastern Conference, it’s kind of a minor miracle. And you have to give Kenny credit for piecing it all together. You have to give Kenny credit for the evolution of Jalen Tyson. He’s been a completely different player than he was as a rookie. You have to give Kenny credit for at least the offense of the defense hovering around the top 10 ish, given all those circumstances. And I think there are reasons to believe that when this picture becomes more complete, when this team becomes fully healthy, although who knows if that’s ever going to happen with this franchise, but when this team comes closer to full strength, that they have the ability to take off and go like this and ascend and become the best version of themselves going into the playoffs, which is what they want and what they hope happens. So I don’t have too many problems with, with Kenny Atkinson and his coaching because I think I have an understanding of all the circumstances that he’s been trying to navigate.
Ethan Sands: Chris, I want to start here. I think we have to admit, and we have on this podcast when it comes to players, that they’re human before they’re athletes, right? Coaches are the same way. Coaches have to learn based on the situation that every season presents to them, right? And who knows how much notice was given to Kenny Atkinson in the front office when Max Strust injured his foot. Right? There was maybe a month before training camp, maybe, and up until that point, the Cavs were preparing for Max Strus to be another fixture of their rotation. Right? As he has been for the multiple years that he’s been here with the Cleveland Cavaliers. Darius Garland, of course, you have the entire off season to plan for him. You don’t necessarily know when he’s going to come back. You don’t know what version of him you’re going to get when he comes back, but I think Kenny Atkinson has had to maneuver himself in the offenses, particularly in a different way than he might have saw fit coming into the season. And that’s part of the point of the experimentation period that we talked about. Plus you think about Evan Mobley and wanting him to add to his offensive game. Chris, you mentioned it earlier, he knows how good he is around the rim. We saw the 3 point growth last year. So what area of his game can he grow in and kind of take the next step? Mid range, right? How can you create off the bounce, get to spots like DeAndre Hunter does? Then also in using your passing acumen that has been growing since you entered the league, can you now be a hub at the middle of the offense when you’re at the elbow extended free throw line extended. And that’s a different kind of offensive scheme that would have opened up multiple different things for this Cavs team. Particularly if we’re talking about pairing Evan with Lonzo Ball and Dean Wade and Sam Arrow in that second unit that the Cavs started with this season. I think you could see the different structures that Kenny Atkinson was going with, but not to the discredit of Evan Mobley. It didn’t work right. So now you have to shift entirely and go back and re acclimate to something yet you haven’t been doing or the first five, ten games of the season and that’s then putting Donovan Mitchell back next to Evan Mobley. And sure they are a great pairing, they were a great pairing last year. But it’s still going to take some time for them to get used to having themselves on the floor next to each other. And I think that’s something that fans have to remember when it comes to this Cav season is that everything is being adjusted based to who is on the floor for them on any given night.
Ethan Sands: As Chris mentioned, this team has had 11 different starting lineups. So sure, we’ve kind of come at this Cavs organization a little bit about how they haven’t had a true identity this season. Makes a little bit of sense if you don’t have a consistent basis on who’s going to be on the floor. Especially when you have a plan coming into the season of wanting to rest guys on certain nights, wanting to give them breaks. Plus, as we saw in the last game, having seven different players out makes things more difficult when it comes to how you’re going to scheme for opponents because it’s not Only having your scouting report for who’s on the opposing team but. But also scouting who’s going to be available for you on any given night.
Chris Fedor: Yeah. And I think usually when you’re talking about coaching decisions, there’s so many, Ethan, that happen throughout the course of a game and a lot of times people latch on to just a few different ones that are glaring. And I don’t know that Kenny has those. He’s been really good with coaches challenge. He’s been really good when it comes to getting the most out of some of these young guys. Look at what Nate Quan Tomlin’s doing. He’s a product of Kenny Atkinson’s play, player development. Look at what Jaylon Tyson’s doing. He’s a product of Kenny Atkinson’s player development. Look at what Sam Merrill is doing. This is a career year for Sam Merrill and Kenny’s been banging the Sam Merrill drum for the last year and a half basically saying like, hey, this guy, this guy’s a two way guy. This guy has more in him than just a three point shooter. This guy brings chaos. This guy brings constant movement. This guy can hold his own on the defensive end of the floor. And like I don’t look at it saying, well, you know, somebody else should be in the starting lineup instead of blank or somebody else should be in the closing lineup instead of blank or somebody else should be in the rotation that’s not getting an opportunity. Like, I just don’t see the glaring flaws in this year’s resume of Kenny Atkinson while also admitting that he certainly hasn’t been perfect, he certainly has made mistakes. We have criticized certain aspects of Kenny and this organization and this basketball team because there are things to criticize. But I don’t think it’s anything over overwhelming and I don’t think it’s anything alarming and I don’t think there’s any reason to overreact at this point in the season.
Ethan Sands: Last point on this topic before we get into our next question. I mean, you can look over at Detroit, right? They’ve been semi healthy throughout this season. But the bigger picture, the bigger topic of this is Jamie Bickerstaff had to learn from his experience in Cleveland. Hey, I’m only going to play eight, nine guys when it comes to the regular rotation. Right now he’s playing 12 guys willingly and hyping them up to play that level of rotation. That’s something that he had to learn over the years, right? And learn based on who he had available every night and also as players were unavailable giving these new guys a different opportunity and then actually earning their trust to then put them into these regular rotation minutes. And Chris, this is something that we’re going to have to look for when it comes to the playoffs because as we know last year Kenny Atkinson said the rotation has to shrink when it comes to the postseason. I don’t think it does. And we’re going to get into a different question about the depth in a little bit. But Chris, I want to get into our second question from our subtexter. This one comes from James in Nebraska. He says it seems that the Cavs are just not a great team without Darius Garland. Did the beat writers or the team itself know DG was this important to the Cleveland Cavaliers? Do these early season games mean all the talk about a championship hinging on Evan Mobley missed the mark that it was actually Darius Garland all along? Chris, I think this is a really interesting question and I’m curious to see what you have to say about Darius Garland’s involvement, impactfulness and importance to this Cavs team.
Chris Fedor: I think first off Ethan, I think Darius importance to this team, this version of the Cavs increased exponentially when Ty Jerome was not brought back. The other thing that I would say is there has always been an understanding about the level that Darius can raise this team to on the offensive end of the floor. Every number will point to that they are a dynamic, prolific offensive team when Darius Garland’s out on the floor versus when he’s off the floor. Everybody knows that because that’s what he does. That’s who he is. That’s what has made him a two time all-star. The questions surrounding Darius behind just health are what does it look like on the defensive end of the floor when he consistently shares the floor with Donovan Mitchell and what does it look like on the defensive end of the floor when you get into a playoff environment and your weaknesses are exploited and there’s more game planning, there’s more due diligence when it comes to scouting reports. Tyler Hero and Bam out of Bio Both said during the first round series against Miami didn’t matter. Miami wasn’t good enough to capitalize on it didn’t matter. It was one of the most lopsided series that we’ve ever seen in NBA history. But Tyler Hero and Bam Adebayo both said he’s a traffic goer, he is a liability. We want to find 10 and attack him over and over and over again. That’s the belief when playing against the Cavs that that is an Exploitable matchup. So it’s going to be up to Darius to show that that’s not going to be the case during this upcoming playoff run because it was the case against Miami. The numbers bear it out and it was the case against Indiana. Now, obviously there are circumstances attached to that and he was dealing with a messed up toe. But throughout the course of his NBA career, he has been a negative defender. So he’s going to have to prove that he can be more than that when these playoffs roll around. And that’s why I think more people lean towards Evan Mobley, because he’s not the same kind of offensive threat as Darius. He’s not. But there’s more of a floor to what he brings offensively and there’s a ceiling maybe possibly to what he brings offensively as well. With Darius, there is no floor. There is no floor. Defensively, he’s one of the worst defenders in the NBA statistically. That’s just the truth of it. So the numbers say that the Cavs are a significantly better defensive team historically over the last couple of years, during this run where they’ve become a legitimate title contender, they have been a better basketball team on defense with Darius off the floor, as opposed to on. And then you ask yourself, okay, does what he brings to the offensive end, does that provide enough? Does that overshadow some of those defensive issues that he’s going to have? And I think it’s a wait and see thing, honestly, I think he’s going to have to prove it. But are they a better offensive team with Darius? Of course. Do they become an elite offensive team with Darius? Of course. Because he’s that kind of offensive player. Just like if we’re having a conversation about the Atlanta Hawks, it’s the same thing with Trae Young, defensive liability, one of the worst defenders in the NBA. But that dude and what he can bring on the offensive end of the floor, his passing, his vision, getting teammates involved, the threat that he is on the offensive end, it’s the same general conversation with those two guys. And I think with Evan Mobley, you know, he is more of a nightly impact player because of how he just completely wrecks game plans or he has the ability to completely wreck game plans as a defensive player while also giving you what he does on the offensive end of the floor. So I still do think that, that Evan Mobley controls more so than anybody else in this organization whether the Cavs ultimately win a championship, if he’s ready for. For everything that is going to be asked of him when The Cavs get to the playoffs, then it changes the equation completely. And I just don’t think I can say the same thing about Darius, understanding how important he is to their potential offensive success.
Ethan Sands: I’m never going to go away from the Evan Mobley is who they need him to be. Because the main topic that we continuously have, especially with Jimmy Watkins on this podcast, is short. Players cannot shift a playoff series to the same caliber that larger players can.
Chris Fedor: Who is the last guy that looked like Darius Garland that led his team to an NBA championship? Or the last guy that looked like Donovan Mitchell that led his team to an NBA champion as the guy? I mean, in the case of Darius, do you have to go back to Isaiah Thomas, all the way back there? How many decades ago is that? And then in case of Donovan, the closest one might be Wade, Dwayne Wade, what he did in not. Not the years when he was with LeBron and Chris Bosh talking about 2006, what he did in those finals alongside Shaq against the Dallas Mavericks. So that was nearly 20 years ago. Like, that’s a long time. There have been a lot of finals series since then.
Ethan Sands: And Chris, I think that’s kind of the point. Like every player needs a Robin to their Batman. You mentioned it. D. Wade and Shaq. Shaq admitted it is D. Wade’s team. Shaq being there helps. Like Evan Mobley being there is going to help. Take Darius Garland and. Sorry, let me flip that on its head. Darius Garland being there or Donovan Mitchell being there is going to help Evan Mobley. And we’ve seen that to the start of this season. Especially when we talk about trying to get him into that mid range game, right? Him getting swarmed by defense, seeing different bodies, different looks that he hadn’t seen in the first four years of his NBA career. Now you’re talking about year five and you’re trying to step into this new life. And I think Darius Garland, you’ve seen it, he just makes life easier for everybody around him, especially on the offensive end. And then you kind of get that extra push on the defensive end because you pair him with Evan or Jared or Dean or Lonzo and you get that extra defender to help him. Because we understand, and as Chris mentioned, and I agree, he is going to need help on that end of the floor. And that’s not a slight to Darius. It’s just some players have their strengths and some players also have weaknesses, right? So I think just Darius, his offensive acumen is something that the Cavs need because it comes with paint touches with his penetration, his speed, his intellect and his passing ability. And don’t forget about that three point shot that can space out and change the geometry of the game. I just think Darius is a player that is an enhancer right to the ceiling or to the floor of what Evan Mobley is already bringing. Evan Mobley is the baseline for who the Cavs need to be able to take themselves past the Eastern Conference semifinals. And that’s the outlook that this organization and this team has had since last year. When we asked the question at the preseason press conference and they understood maybe it can be Donovan, but everybody in the actions that were happening in the organization were saying the empowerment to everyone around him was extremely important for this team to get where it wants to go.
Chris Fedor: I think the other thing that can’t be ignored within this question is a lot of the off season conversations surrounding Darius were also tied to a bloated salary cap and the Cavs going into the second apron for the first time. And just the challenges that come with team building and, and it may not be last offseason, it may be this upcoming offseason or the next offseason. When you have so many high priced players on your roster, it’s just hard to keep all those guys together. So when we were having conversations in the off season and we were throwing out some fake trade ideas, part of that was tied to alleviating some of the the salary cap limitations that the Cavs were going to have moving forward.
Ethan Sands: All right, let’s get into our next question. Question from our subtexters. This one’s coming from Jeff in Washington. He says, hey dudes, Happy Thanksgiving. Happy Thanksgiving to you. He says, I’m curious about your thoughts on the depth of this team. Seems like they are deeper than last year. Among Jalen Tyson, Craig Quarter Jr, Tyrese Proctor and Naquan Tomlin, who do you think will keep getting solid minutes once everyone is back from injuries? And Chris, I think the easiest answer to this conversation is the player who continuously gets put in the starting lineup when players are injured, which would be Jalen Tyson. But I don’t necessarily only think that’s the reason. I think it’s because of the energy that he brings and what he is capable of when it comes to disrupting opponents offensive schemes and being able or willing to guard multiple different players at any given moment. And again, in the conversation of what we were saying about helping Darius Garland and Donovan Mitchell, who’s not a slouch on defense but also is not the biggest Jaylon Tyson being there can help switching principles in those things as well. The other player that I’m going to throw out that I think is second on this list might be a little bit more surprising because he’s not necessarily a player who has been on this roster or in the rotation even dating back to the beginning of the season. But Naquan Tomlin’s energy has been infectious and his ability to rebound on the glass and just his willingness to go get boards will help out Jared Allen and Evan Mobley, who, as I mentioned in our last podcast, Evan Mobley is a good rebound because of size. Naquan Tomlin is a good rebounder because of instinct and the ability to go after a ball and get on the floor if necessary. That’s why I think in this conversation, Jaylon Tyson and Naquan Tomlin are the most likely to continue to get semi decent rotation minutes when this team is fully healthy. And as Chris said, if this team ever gets fully healthy.
Chris Fedor: I’m surprised Ethan, you didn’t say Craig Porter Jr. He’s a little bit out of sight, out of mind right now because he’s dealing with hamstring strain. There’s no real timetable for when he’s going to be back. I think it was a positive sign that he was one of the few guys that, that was ruled out that actually made the trip to Toronto. So he got treatment in Toronto. He was there going through stuff with the training staff as well. Behind the scenes. That’s a positive. The other guys just didn’t go to Toronto. They didn’t even bother making the trip. Why would you. Second game of a back to back, gotta go through customs late at night going into Thanksgiving week. No, thank you. But Craig Porter Jr. Like, I think there’s a case for him. First of all, he’s been awesome. He is doing all of the things that Kenny Atkinson has asked of him and more. His three point shot has been reliable. He’s been, I won’t say reliable, consistent source of offense, but he has given them enough offense where if he’s got a pull up in the middle, he can do that. Where if he’s gotta attack the basket, get all the way to the rim out of the pick and roll, he has shown an ability to do that. He’s made defenses pay for going under screens and sagging away from him. And this kind of goes into Ethan, the conversation that we were having following Monday’s game against the Raptors with Lonzo Ball and if, if Lonzo’s gonna continue to, to misfire on basically every shot that he takes. I know what he brings, I know the impact that he can have, and I know how much Kenny Atkinson values him. But this is also a meritocracy. This is a league where you reward guys for how they play, Right? It doesn’t mean that you go away from Lonzo completely, but maybe some of those minutes get trimmed back, pulled back a little bit, and go to somebody like Craig Border Jr. I also think that the Cavs want to do a little bit of experimenting and seeing, okay, what’s it look like with Craig and Donovan together? Can we get away with that? If Craig plays bigger than what he’s listed because of his block shots, because of his rebounding capabilities, because of the physical nature that he’s playing with on the defensive end of the floor, because he’s picking up guys full court and he’s been this hound on the defensive end of the floor, can they get away with that? What’s it look like with Craig and Darius? Is that a possibility? So I think the only way that you really start to get some of these answers is you continue to explore it, you continue to experiment with it. So I think because, you know, Kenny Atkinson had this conversation with Craig throughout the course of the off season, and he said, basically, I need you to do this, this, this and this. And a big part of it was get into shape, be better conditioned. But I think it was also take the game more seriously, like do all these other things behind the scenes that backup point guards do that NBA rotational players do. And Craig has done all those things, and Kenny has credited him and singled him out for doing all those things. If Craig. If you going to have those conversations with Craig in the off season and he’s going to deliver on every single thing and he’s going to do everything that you ask him to do, you can’t just take him out of the rotation. You can’t. He’s got to have a place because he’s earned it. And I think for their relationship, that would be really, really bad. The player coach dynamic would be really, really bad if Craig is saying, well, wait a minute, you told me to do all this stuff, I did all this stuff, and now I’m going to get taken out of the rotation when. When Lonzo Ball’s shooting 30% from three point range. So I think there has to be a place for Craig, part because he earned it, in part because of those offseason conversations between the two guys and keeping up that player coach relationship. So I do think you make a good point about Jaylon Tyson. That’s the obvious answer. He’s. He’s one of the guys averaging double digits in scoring. I think he’s sixth or seventh on this team in scoring. He’s neat. The stuff that he brings to the table, including the switchable defense, the toughness, the joy that he brings to the game, and he, and he has shown that he can, like, play alongside guys in the starting lineup and be effective, even if he’s not getting a whole bunch of shots or a whole bunch of touches, like he’s been filling in the gaps. So that, that helps with, with lineup construction and stuff like that. And you make a point about Naquan Tomlinson. I think part of his, his potential workload is kind of tied to Larry Nance Jr. And what the Cavs think they can get from Larry and how much more they want to dig into the Larry thing. Are they going to play him at the four or are they going to shift into Only full time 5? How do they view that? What version of Dean Wade are they getting? How confident is he? How much of an impact is he making? So I do think as, as we’ve talked about so many different times on this podcast, when you’re talking about the back end of this rotation for this team, deep, talented, they’re going to get opportunities, they just might not be the same opportunity every single night. In other words, like, if you’re in the back end of this rotation, your workload, all of that kind of stuff, it’s probably going to be more fluid and maybe more fluid than some of these guys would like, or maybe more fluid than, than what some of these guys have earned. But it’s a math equation. And on this team, if they’re fully healthy, if they get to that point, you just can’t play everybody.
Ethan Sands: When this team, if this team ever gets fully healthy, I think the end of rotation guys, it’s going to be based on matchups, because we saw that was in part why Naquan Tomlin got a start over Craig Porter Jr. Earlier into the season. They needed his length, they needed his size, they needed his versatility on defense, but also like, who’s playing well and who’s not. And I think that’s another thing that Kenny Atkinson, when we talk about his coachability, his coaching acumen, like, he has to be willing to go away from players, even star players, if they aren’t playing well. And you mentioned Dean Wade and Larry Nance. That’s exactly who I was thinking about. When it comes to Naquan Thomlee and then this again becomes a math equation because the question was, who do you think is most likely to get more minutes, right? Not who do you think deserves those minutes, right? When you have Darius Garland, you have Donovan Mitchell, you have Lonzo Ball, you have Sam Merrill. I just think the Runway is longer for Craig Porter Jr. And I was someone that was early on the Craig Porter Jr. Train, right? This was dating back to when he got picked up and then earned his standard deal. I think that Craig Porter Jr. Has a lot of the intangibles, has the mid range game, has the ability to break down the defense and get to a spot that the Cavs need in certain scenarios. He is, in some scenarios, when he’s on the court, one of the own players that, that is able to create his own shot for the Cleveland Cavaliers. Right now, I think this is an.
Chris Fedor: Important point and you mentioned, you know, how Kenny handles it. And even if it was somebody who was supposed to be in the rotation, if they’re just not producing, the belief is that we have other guys that can produce. That’s how Kenny is looking at it. That’s how this organization is looking at it. He already showed that he was willing to do that. He went away from Larry Nance Jr. For two straight games. That that sort of was based on matchups and Kenny could kind of like use that to soften it, but it was based on, you know, where Larry was mentally, the kind of impact that he was making or not making. He kind of needed a reset. We’ve got to monitor this Lonzo thing. We do, because statistically, and I know it’s only November, I feel like we have to use this qualifier all the time. We’re only 19 games in. Lonzo was brought here more for the playoffs than during the regular season. But statistically and sometimes stats don’t tell the full story. Is that enough qualifiers? I think I’ve used four different qualifiers when it comes to this just so that we’ve covered all of our bases here. All I’m saying is pay attention to the Lonzo thing. Keep monitoring it, because statistically they are a better basketball team with him off the floor. And I think part of that, Ethan, is, is big time tied to just how defenses are guarding him or not guarding him because he’s just not consistently making shots. And it becomes more difficult on an offense. It becomes more congested. The floor. With him on the court, the Cavs have a net rating of, of 1.2. With him off the floor, the Cavs have a net rating of 6.1. Kenny is analytical. Numbers oftentimes do drive his decisions. It’s not the only thing he considers, but is part of the equation. He sees these numbers. He sees what’s going on, even with the vision, even with the basketball iq, even with the passing, even with the playmaking. If the Cavs believe that CRED can do some of those things, not to the level of Lonzo, but some of those things well enough, he’s shooting it better. He’s scoring with a little bit more efficiency. I’d say a lot more efficiency, honestly, although the volume doesn’t match. And defensively he’s been disruptive too. He doesn’t have the same size, the same length. But all I’m saying is watch that.
Ethan Sands: Maybe the volume should match a little bit more. Chris, that’s the point. But I also the last point I’ll make on this on the Lonzo ball topic, because I agree with you, is that the Cavs, as you mentioned, traded for Lonzo for the playoffs. I’m worried that Kenny will be reluctant to go away from Lonzo because the organization said this is why he’s here, even if he’s not making shots. So again, as Chris says, we have to monitor it. We’ll have to see. But this is definitely more of a playoff conversation and whether Kenny Atkinson is going to be willing to go away from guys. Larry Nance is an example. I also want to say there have been games where I think he should have gone away from Donovan or Evan Mobley.
Chris Fedor: Here’s the thing. Kenny goes away from Jared Allen. Jared Allen is supposed to be a member of the Core four. Jared Allen is one of the highest paid players on this roster. Jarrett is is spoken of as one of the most important players on this roster. If Kenny’s fine going away from from Jarrett for one reason or another, then he’s got to be fine going away from Lonzo. If he’s bricking jumpers over and over.
Ethan Sands: And over again, we’ll have to wait and see. But let’s get into this last question from our subtexters. This one comes from Dave in Tucson. He says the NBA doesn’t play on Thanksgiving, but it does on Christmas. And since this is a holiday week podcast, have you got to bring your family along? What NBA city would be your most and least favorite to cover a game from on Christmas? Well, Dave and Tucson, I want to tell you real quick, I will be in Atlanta for the game against the Hawks and the part of the reason I will have fun is because I do have family in The Georgia area. So I’m going to make a whole day out of it. It will have me dirt tired by the end of it, but I will make time for family and then also give you guys the content that you so readily deserve. But for Christmas, I mean, Chris, we know you love New York. Is that, is that the answer?
Chris Fedor: And my love for New York has extended to my family. A couple years ago, I brought Holly there. You know, the season was over and all I did during the season was talk about how much fun I had in New York during the work trips. And Holly was like, all right, like, I gotta see what this is all about. So we use my Marriott points. We got a hotel in New York. We spent four days in New York exploring the city. Show on Broadway, Fairy Statue of Liberty, you know, all the touristy stuff. Walked across the Brooklyn Bridge into Manhattan as the sun was going down and the lights were. Oh. Oh, it was glorious. It was a wonderful trip. And, you know, as Holly got to explore the city and got to find out why I loved it as much as I do, she now loves it. And we have talked many times about going back there as well. Maybe taking Elliot sometime. He’s a little bit young. He’s going to be four in two days. So, you know, he’d get pushed around on the subway and stuff like that. People don’t care in New York. They just bump into everybody, walk across the street when they’re not supposed to because the light is red and stuff. So Elliot’s not ready for New York. But eventually we have talked about bringing Elliot there so that he can share our love of New York as well. And I gotta be honest, it is going to be hard to be away from the family for Christmas. That is a drawback. But if I’m going to be somewhere for Christmas, I love that it’s New York. I will make the most of it that it is New York. I’ll go see the tree. I might go ice skating at Rockefeller Center. Because when you think Christmas, you think New York. You think about the tree, you think about the ice skating, you think about the Macy’s Parade. And oh, you just, you, you feel the energy, you hear the whispers. Like all of the stuff that Alicia Keys says in her song about New York, it’s so true. So if I have to be away from the family on, on Christmas, I at least have the softening blow of it is New York. And I can certainly make the most of it. It’s not like I’m in oh, geez, I don’t want to throw one out there, but you know I will because I’ve done it before. It’s not like I’m in Atlanta for Christmas. It’s not like I’m in Philly for Christmas. It’s not like I’m in Costco version of Cleveland, Milwaukee for Christmas. You know, I mean, like, it’s, it’s New York on Christmas. There’s. There’s something special, special about that. And there is part of me that is very, very excited about that. The other one that I think is a wild card, and this just goes to me personally, I think people that have listened to this podcast know that I love Toronto. The Cavs just played the Raptors on the second game of a back to back going into Thanksgiving week with three days off. And I told you and I told the bosses, I am not missing that trip. It is our only visit to Toronto this season. Planned visit to Toronto this season playoffs. Toronto in April, Toronto in May. Sign me up. I would take it. But Toronto around Christmas I think would be different and interesting. And I would certainly make the most of that, too, because every time I go to Toronto, I have a great time, great food, great vibes, great downtown. So much that you can see and do. So that would be, for me personally, a close second.
Ethan Sands: My least favorite place that I would go would have to be Utah. I do not want to be in Utah for Christmas.
Chris Fedor: Snow covered mountains don’t do it for you?
Ethan Sands: No, I don’t want to. Nope. I’ll draw the line there. I can’t even think of, like, one person I know that’s even been to Utah. So we’re going to just say no.
Chris Fedor: Lauri Markkanen on Christmas, the revenge game.
Ethan Sands: I’m going to say no. But New York is definitely a good one. I mean, because I grew up there. I would say dc, But I’m not going for the Wizards. I’m not going to see them play Washington.
Chris Fedor: Ethan’s like, you know what? I’ll just watch the game on TV back from my hotel room. I’ll write from there, and I’ll just explore the city leading into the game. That place around Christmas would be really cool.
Ethan Sands: Yeah, it, it’s really nice. But I grew up going to New York’s. Like, I think I went to New York around Christmas. We were never there for Christmas because it’s so crazy in New York around that time. But we would, like, go like the weekend after Christmas or something like that. And yes, I can admit New York is definitely one of the top tier ones for a Christmas holiday.
Chris Fedor: The lights will inspire you. They will make you feel brand new. Just gonna keep quoting Alicia Keys.
Ethan Sands: Oh, I thought you were gonna say they were gonna be too bright.
Chris Fedor: I guess we’ll find out.
Ethan Sands: With all that being said, that’ll wrap up today’s episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. This will be our last podcast before the Thanksgiving holiday. Happy Thanksgiving to everybody who listens. Thank you for tuning in. Thank you for allowing us to do something that we love. And doing something we love is also communicating with you guys on a daily basis basis. So if you want to do that, subscribe to Subtext, sign up for a 14 day free trial or visit cleveland.comcavs and click on the blue bar at the top of Faith. If you don’t like it, that’s fine. All you have to do is text the word stop. It’s easy, but we can tell you that the people who sign up stick around because this is the best way to get insider coverage on the Cavs from me, Chris and Jimmy. This isn’t just our podcast. If you’re podcast and the only way to have your voice heard is through subtext, y’ all be safe. We out.