CLEVELAND, Ohio — It’s time for the Thanksgiving week edition of the Terry’s Talkin’ podcast, with cleveland.com columnist Terry Pluto and host David Campbell. In this episode, they talk about Shedeur Sanders, his Browns starting debut, and what to look for vs. the 49ers. Terry also discusses whether he thinks Myles Garrett is the best Browns defensive player he’s ever seen in person.
Also, they share their thoughts on the Cavs, and whether Terry would be OK if Evan Mobley doesn’t develop into an NBA superstar and stays the kind of player he is now.
Terry also shares his thoughts on a book he’s reading about World War II battlefield correspondent Ernie Pyle.
Highlights:
Thanks to you, our listeners! Without you we wouldn’t be here.
Shedeur Sanders’ starting debut was “intriguing,” marked by poise and a crucial avoidance of mistakes.
Sanders’ performance demonstrated clear evidence of his discipline to avoid negative plays.
Myles Garrett: The best Browns defensive player Terry has ever seen?
Coach Kevin Stefanski offered rare, high praise for a Sanders pass, signaling genuine excitement in his own Stefanski way.
The disruptive play of interior defensive linemen Mason Graham and Maliek Collins is a key factor in the defense’s overall dominance.
The upcoming game against the 49ers will be a different kind of challenge for Sanders.
A primary goal for the remainder of the season is to thoroughly evaluate the young quarterbacks to inform future roster decisions.
Cavaliers coach Kenny Atkinson earned a positive grade for navigating numerous injuries and successfully developing young players.
A debate is ongoing about whether Cavaliers forward Evan Mobley can evolve into the MVP-caliber offensive star the team envisions.
Terry Pluto argues that Mobley’s value lies in his elite defense and unselfish play, and he should not be forced into a primary scorer role.
Josh Naylor’s new contract with the Mariners includes a rare full no-trade clause, granting him significant leverage.
A listener emails about the gambling investigation involving Emmanuel Clase and Luis Ortiz.
The Ohio State-Michigan game’s importance for legacy persists, with Coach Ryan Day attempting a new, calmer approach to preparation.
Terry Pluto recommends the book Ernie Pyle’s War for its vivid and powerful portrayal of the experiences of soldiers in World War II.
Here’s the podcast for this week:
If you have a question or a topic you’d like to see included on the podcast, email it to sports@cleveland.com, and put “Terry’s Talkin’” in the subject line.
You can find previous podcasts below.
Also, a transcript of the podcast is below. As it is computer-generated, it may contain many spelling and grammar errors.
David Campbell: Happy Thanksgiving week. Welcome to this week’s Terry’s Talking Podcast. I’m David Campbell. Your host, Terry Pluto is here. Terry, it sounds like you’re feeling better. I know you were battling something this week. You sound good.
Terry Pluto: Well, we’ll see how it ends up. But, yeah, so far, so good.
David Campbell: So I wanted to talk about Thanksgiving a little bit this week because your newsletter this week, you talked about the decades you’ve had in journalism, and I know that you have a special relationship with Cleveland sports fans. And I don’t know, I just wanted to kind of talk about Thanksgiving for a minute. We have so much to be thankful for. I mean, Bernie Kozar is out of the hospital, which is a great thing. We’re all thankful for that after having his liver transplant. And I was looking. Terry, next week is going to be our 200th episode, which is remarkable. And it’s all because. And you. You mentioned this a lot, Terry. It’s all because of the listeners and the fans who take their time and decide to spend some of it with us. We’re very thankful for that. So I just wanted to let you talk about Thanksgiving for a minute because.
Terry Pluto: There’S, well, first of all, no readers or no listeners. There’s no us because they don’t need us. We are dependent upon the people out there. And I’m just so grateful for that because you don’t know how things are going to play out in our business, and watched a lot of newspapers go under or change dramatically. And we’re also in pretty good financial footing according to the bosses. And that’s due to the. Again, due to the people who subscribe, who listen and advertise. So I’m grateful for that. I mean, been able to do this job, you know, full time for like, 45 years, something like that, and been, you know, writing for more than 50 some. And then you look at the fact, too, how sports, I really believe, is a place that I call it the diversion department. It’s a diversion from real life. And unless you’re stuck deep in the pit of sports gambling, I mean, if the Browns mess up another season, I mean, this is a surprise. Is that really going to derail your life? I mean, I’m just being there. But if they’re having a good year, it’s a lot of fun, and it could at least buy us a few good hours on Sunday away from somebody who’s suffering from cancer or someone who just lost a spouse or any of those other things. And so I like the fact that I used to be David, I’m sure even when you started, remember, sports is the toy department.
David Campbell: Oh, yeah. That’s what they called it. They still do, I think.
Terry Pluto: Yeah. But, you know, it changed a lot of that when they started getting those Internet numbers and realizing how many people were paying attention to the sports stories. And I think that’s a big thing, too. And I. I believe that’s one of the reasons cleveland.com is unsuccessful, because they put a lot of assets and a lot of tension and a lot of effort into having good Cleveland sports coverage. Cool.
David Campbell: Well, wherever you are, we’re taping this on Wednesday afternoon. A lot of people are traveling. We hope wherever you’re traveling, you have a safe trip and a wonderful holiday. But, yeah, I just want another thing to be thankful for, Terry, is for our 200th episode next week. I am not going to play the accordion for you. That’s another reason to be thankful.
Terry Pluto: Nothing wrong with the accordion.
David Campbell: It is what I play it so well.
Terry Pluto: When I grew up, my dad, mom. Sunday mornings, I believe it was. It was either Saturday or Sunday. There’s a local show called Polka Varieties of Frankie Yankovic.
David Campbell: Yeah, sure.
Terry Pluto: And it was a famous. It was a very big deal and there was a very heavy dose of your style music. You could have been on Polka Varieties.
David Campbell: Oh, every kid growing up watching that show dreamed of being on it, I’m sure. So. All right, let’s get into the Browns here. They’re coming off a 2410 victory over the Raiders. Should your Sanders his first NFL start. And so I want to get your thoughts on this, Terry, like how we should read this. There’s a lot of Browns fans who are very excited about this, and I rightfully so. And then, you know, I wanted. I wanted to read a letter from Dennis Cassidy, one of our listeners, and he says, good morning, gentlemen. Before we start hailing Sanders as the next coming of Otto Graham, let’s how he would have fared against the defenses Dylan Gabriel faced. Well, I think the Browns secured a solid victory. That will boost the team’s confidence. I’m not ready to celebrate just yet. So again, this from Dennis Cassidy, longtime listener. But the other side of that Terry is he looks like an NFL quarterback out there. He’s throwing off platform right when on that zero blitz they got, he heaved that long pass down the field to bomb which Browns fans have not seen at all this season. Where are you at in terms of this kind of Y and Yang of like this exuberance and like the caution that’s out there right now?
Terry Pluto: Basically I’m intrigued. I’m not celebrating or anything either, but I’m intrigued. I want to see more because as you said, physically, you know, he looks more of the part. He’s like. I’m surprised. I think he’s only listed a 6:2. He always looks taller to me and he has an above average arm with good accuracy. He was able to resist the impulse he has to go running backwards and try to make a big play out of everything. To me that was the most encouraging part, David, was that he was sacked once for minus 3, not sacked once for minus 18, minus 15. I mean those are real numbers for him sometimes. The other thing is a few times he threw the ball away rather than B sacked. You could tell those three times a week, early morning sessions with Kevin Stefanski and whatever those extra periods were, he was listening and paying attention and they were teaching him. And so can we please act like the Browns just wanted him to fail? Stop this. I mean they didn’t weren’t going to teach him. They were doing it maybe a different way, but it was clear that he was prepared and he was paying attention in that game. Now I watched some of the San Francisco game Monday night and that’s going to be a whole other defense for him and another challenge. So we’ll see. But I’d rather say this. Look, the Browns are a bad team, but they beat a bad team. And two weeks ago, but two weeks ago they played a terrible team and they lost. They’re perfectly capable of losing to a terrible team. And he made plays a couple that helped them win and more importantly none that would directly lead to the loss. He threw the one interception and I’m not. I actually looked at that. I still wasn’t even sure what he saw on that. It was just a, just a bad pass. But overall, you know, it was, it was a really good performance. I mean the defense won the game. The defense owned the game. But if you’re going to have a dominant defense, then you need more of a quarterback of this way that’s not going to give away place to the opposing defense by just fumbling and that I do hope that he makes sure he secures the ball because to me sometimes when he gets hit, he looks like a fumble waiting to happen.
David Campbell: I’m trying to think where to go here, Terry. I. I’m so let’s run through his numbers real quick. 11 of 20 for 209 yards, 55% completion rate, one touchdown. The the longs passed on the right flat. That went for for again another long game one. The one interception you mentioned, he was sacked one time, 87.3 rating.
Terry Pluto: Yeah.
David Campbell: So I think both things can be true at the same time, Terry. I think, like you said, I thought he played really well. And it reminded me of Ohio State’s first game against Texas, where Julian Sane was playing his first game. And they’re like, all right, we need to win the game. We’re going to give you a package that’s going to work, that’s not going to overextend you, and you’re going to feel comfortable in it. And Julian saying, went out there and executed it in Ohio State beat Texas. And I felt like Shador Sanders did the exact same thing. Like, he went out there and like you said, he made the plays that needed to be made. It was a bad team. I mean, they fired Chip Kelly right after the game.
Terry Pluto: Yeah.
David Campbell: Just to show you the state of that franchise right now. But like, like you said, Terry, an NFL win is an NFL win. And he went out and he did the job. And I’m really curious to see where this goes. I think he looks like an NFL quarterback and he’s got the. I think he’s got the support of the locker room, like the. You can see just during games, the relationship he has with guys. They want to play with him and for him. And he’s got the arm and the instincts, like, it’s all there. And like you said, I’ve been thinking about Johnny Manziel a lot lately because that was the last time the Browns had a quarterback who was this height. Right?
Terry Pluto: Yeah. The celebrity didn’t go well.
David Campbell: And I was trying to think, why is this different? And this is different because Shador Sanders has more talent. He’s bigger, he’s got a better arm. I think he’s. And he’s. And he’s putting in the work. Like. Like you said, he’s putting in the work where Johnny Manziel did not put in the work.
Terry Pluto: He doesn’t have a substitute problem. I mean, let’s be real, you know, Johnny did, admittedly, and that is a problem. Your quarterback can’t be a guy that if he is out at night, he better be there first thing in the morning and doing his job. And you said Manzel, you know, he didn’t put in the work. Shador clearly does seem to want to put in the work. And he is having to learn. Remember Andrew Berry’s line? He’s going from English to Mandarin. In other words, this is a whole new language. And I believe, really had he not been doing the extra work that Stefanski and the coaches asked. You might have seen Bailey zappy or something when Gabriel got hurt. Because these guys, I think, know they have to win a few games here, a few more games. I think they know. The owner said, well, when they asked how many games. Well, it’s got to be more than three. They know that.
David Campbell: And that’s where they are right now.
Terry Pluto: They are. They’re at three. So I. I took some notes during the. I watched it last night and I took some. Yeah, let’s hear some of your notes. Just a different things. What I really. It’s interesting to me how Dylan Sampson got to be part of the game one. We really hadn’t seen that before. And the flip side is using the Wildcat with junkins near the go line and a couple other times. What did you make? The Wildcat?
David Campbell: I thought it was good. I mean, they must have seen something. I rehears our colleague was writing about this in his Winners and Losers. Like the Browns must have seen something in the way the Raiders run. Red zone package, jumbo lineup or whatever was. Was set up because they went to it twice and it worked twice. And again it was. It was an OSU Texas thing where it’s like, hey, let’s not put the pressure on a guy making his first NFL start to make a play in a condensed part of the field. Let’s give it to our best running back and let him try to run it in. And they did, and it worked. So.
Terry Pluto: And they threw 20 passes, not 38.
David Campbell: It’s nice to have a lead.
Terry Pluto: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Right. And also a game plan that was more realistic for a rookie quarterback, unlike that one that they threw Dylan Gabriel into in Pittsburgh. Secondly, Shadora’s rarely, if ever, under center in college. I have not got the full stats on that, but I would say one out of every four plays he was taking a snap directly under center. And that helps. I really do. So that means he’s. He was learning that stuff. You may say, well, he should be able to do it, or whatever, but a lot of these kids in high school and college now, they don’t take that direct snap. You know, they’re. They’re in the shotgun.
David Campbell: And it’s a great point. And the footwork is totally different. And you got to work on it and work on it so it becomes second nature if you haven’t done it before. Yeah, great point.
Terry Pluto: Yeah. And that. And he looked comfortable. You would not have known that that was probably the first time, at least in A regular season game that he was under center, so that was a really good thing. By the way, you know, I was looking at how Harold Fanning Jr. Runs the ball. My goodness. You know, get the ball in his hands even more.
David Campbell: He runs a little bit like Walter Payton used to run and where he attacks the defenders. Right.
Terry Pluto: He.
David Campbell: He doesn’t wait to get hit. He hits. And he’s always getting those extra yards at the end of the plays. He’s been really fun to watch.
Terry Pluto: Yeah, he. He is. And so that, you know, I really like that. I like the fact they’re getting Sampson involved. I think they can work some more with Shador. He can run for some first downs. We just need them sliding. We don’t know. I am. Quarterbacks and kickers are not football players. We don’t want to see you getting hit because it’s hard to replace you and you are not used to being hit on top of it. So you’re more likely to get hurt. You’re going to get hit enough trying not to get hit. So don’t get hit. That’s. How’s that. That’s. That’s what I was.
David Campbell: A service announcement.
Terry Pluto: It’s not a knock. It’s just like. No. For the good of the team. They don’t need you getting hit. Yeah. All these football players, you know, the quarterback goes and runs into two guys and throws his shoulder down and he gets up and they high five him, whatever. But then he does that. He tries to do that again and separates his shoulder or gets a concussion. Now, how did that help the team?
David Campbell: Yeah. You’re trading one play for potentially longer, right?
Terry Pluto: Yeah. The risk versus reward. It’s not real hard to. To do that. But I, I. There was only one play that I saw where he wandered way backwards and then he threw kind of this balloon pass. And it turned out the Browns committed a penalty anyway. But that was a disaster waiting to happen. Him. He was like 15 yards behind the line of scrimmage. It was a floater off to the side. A lot of bad things get. But that was it where I saw, like, really bad place. The more I see a Tyson Campbell, the more I like him. I’ll take Greg Newson for Tyson Campbell any day.
David Campbell: That has worked out well.
Terry Pluto: Yeah. And when you look at that, I mean, it was as you mentioned, they were so bad, they being the Raiders. But the Browns didn’t play a very sloppy. Where they had. Did they lose a fumble? I don’t think so. I don’t think they had one turnover. The Interception.
David Campbell: Yeah. So is that all your notes? I don’t want to cut you off if you’re in the middle of your notes.
Terry Pluto: Defensively, we all know what Miles is doing, but those tackles are taking over games too. Mason Graham and Malik Collins, my goodness, they are really causing all kinds of pressure up the middle. I thought, by the way, that broadcast with Ross Tucker was excellent.
David Campbell: Yeah, he’s very good.
Terry Pluto: Because I, I saw it when I’m kind of. A lot of times when I’m doing the game, it’s a little hard because doing those first, those halftime scribbles and that’s. I’m like watching and writing and you know, and then even in the second half, I’m really more into like, what am I going to write? What’s the angle while watching the game where I sit back and watch it, like at night, I’m just sitting there literally with my notebook and scribbling and I could run a playback again. And I feel more comfortable actually with what I watched. And also I’m listening now to the broadcaster in this case, it was Ross Tucker who was impressive guy when he was here. I remember that. And I forgot who the play by play guy, but I thought he was very solid too. They were doing it. Roberta even watched a little bit with me and she was saying, oh, yeah, these guys are good. They tell you what’s going on. So. And she’s not a big football fan. She likes basketball and baseball better. So anyway, that was. Let’s see if there’s anything else on this list. Oh, Miles was fun to see him run over center. I mean, already that was like. Caused total panic before the balls even snapped when they saw him wandering around the middle of the field. And that really is things there. But the tackles and you know, we, I think we take Denzel Ward for granted how good he is. He broke.
David Campbell: Yeah, he had a nice game. He did, Yeah. I haven’t been his biggest fan over the years. I think he’s been a little inconsistent, but I think he had a really nice game the other day.
Terry Pluto: So his ability to break up passes, you know, on some of those.
David Campbell: Yeah. And all the times teams don’t throw at him.
Terry Pluto: Yeah, they don’t throw at him. Yeah, that’s. That’s a, that’s a, that’s a stop too. Okay.
David Campbell: Can I go back to Shador for a second?
Terry Pluto: Yeah.
David Campbell: So, you know, we’ve been listening to Kevin Stefanski for quite a few years now, and he said one thing in the post game press conference that when I heard It. I was like, wow.
Terry Pluto: He.
David Campbell: He likes what Shadour Sanders did out there. Because this was the quote. All right. I was kind of writing it down as he said it, but it was the long past to Bond and Stefanski said, they had us in a max look that we couldn’t block. It was cover zero. That’s a high level play that Sanders made. So when you hear Kevin, if most coaches say that, you’re like, all right, whatever. But Kevin Stefanski doesn’t say stuff like, it was like he was standing on the mountaintop and saying like, wow. That was like Myles Garrett’s reaction. The wow, Right. Like, this is Kevin Stefanski’s version of wow.
Terry Pluto: Yeah.
David Campbell: When he saw that play. So I just wanted to note that because Kevin Stefanski will jump up on a mountain and yell about Myles Garrett and how he should be defensive player of the year, like he did a couple of years ago. This was like, he was kind of yelling like, that was an amazing play by a rookie quarterback. And I wanted. I took a note of that because that’s a little out of character for Kevin Stefanski to be that. That’s gushing for him.
Terry Pluto: Right. What I saw, too, is rather than running backwards, he had Shador running sideways. So I think it helps Shador see the field more and clearly going to his right. Even if he’s off balance, he can still make a strong throw. And then now we see why Andrew Barry was excited about Isaiah Bond. That was the plan. You run straight real fast and we’ll throw you the ball real far and see what happens. Well, that. There it was. It happened. And that was, you know, that was really good. I couldn’t tell a couple times if Tillman and Judy cut off their routes or what. I was a little. There were a couple plays there where seems like, sure, you’re through longer. And I don’t know if they were supposed to go longer or what. But I want you to explain to me, David Campbell, what exactly was Jerry Judy doing when he caught that long pass?
David Campbell: So I had a few people ask me about this. So sometimes when you’re playing football and you’re running down the field and you’re in open space, you kind of get this feeling of exuberance and like, all right, I’m going to put a move on here, somebody, and you just kind of spring up in the air like a rabbit, and then when you hit the ground, you’re going to plant your foot and do a cut or a spin or something to get past the oncoming defenders that are in front of you. Like, I’ve done that playing football, like, through my youth and stuff, and I see players do it all the time. But looked bad for Jerry Judy because he thought there was nobody around. And if he had done that and done a spin move or, you know, a stop and go and gotten past those guys, people would have been like, wow, that was. You know, he was really feeling it there. But instead, he got stripped from behind and lost the football. So everybody’s like, wow, what was he doing there? It went from, like. It went from like, what is he doing there? In a good way? To like, what is he doing there? Right. So that was kind of what I saw. And I’ve seen other guys do that where they’re just feeling good, and it’s just kind of like you got a spring in your step and you’re ready to attack a move. That’s what I saw there, so it better work. All right, I want to put you on the spot with another topic here related to. So you’ve talked in the past about. I remember you last year talking about how Andres Jimenez was the best defensive second baseman you’ve ever seen playing Cleveland. And, you know, we’ve talked about Jose and how you feel about him in terms of the pantheon of great Cleveland baseball players. Would Myles Garrett right now be the best defensive player that you have ever seen in Cleveland? Again, I didn’t want to put you on the spot. I was trying to think of other people.
Terry Pluto: I’m trying to go back in my mind to the 60s, and I don’t have the 50s in me. You know, I’m old, but not that old. So that would be periodically, at least once or twice a week. It’s like we still need Hal Lebowitz, you know, the walking historian, to. To put it. Because Hal was not a guy that would always say the older players were the best. Like, I remember when we had a discussion about shortstops, and he went through a long litany for Mary Marty Marion, who was a great player for the 40s, and Luis Aploritio, and he settled on Ozzie Smith and Omar as the best two he had ever seen and went with Omar because Omar made fewer errors. So, you know. But then again, you know, Feller. Feller wasn’t one of them. Felt Feller. I think Koufax are the two best pitchers he’d ever seen, so he could do both. But in terms of. Yeah, Garrett is just. He keeps getting better. And keep in mind before this year, because he hasn’t missed a game this year. He had missed only five games in the previous four years. Now he gets the big contract and he’s with a team that, I mean, this has been a dismal season for guys like him. And he’s been out there not just getting sacks. Kevin Stefanski went on this thing about that he is among the best run defenders in the league. And he said, you see those tackles for losses and that he’s just not out there piling up sacks. So that tells you that I think the case could be made that he is perhaps the best ever. I would have to look at Brown’s defensive players in the hall of Fame. You know, I know Tony Grossi and Mary Kay keep trying to get Clay Matthews in the hall of Fame. They’re not been able to do it. My mentor in prison ministry, Bill Glass, had the unofficial sack record till Miles broke it a few years ago. And so, yeah, he is all right.
David Campbell: Best defensive player you’ve ever seen with the Browns.
Terry Pluto: Yeah. Okay.
David Campbell: I just wanted to kind of get that on the record. I was curious about it. And actually Miles Garrett has just been named the AFC defensive player of the week. Mary Kay Cabot, our colleague, just put up a post on that. With his three sacks against the Raiders, he now has 18. He broke his own team record. So that’s the new Browns record is 18.
Terry Pluto: And, and look, if they were winning games where they’re ahead, probably give another five. I mean, because there just be more passes thrown against the more chances for him to sack the quarterback.
David Campbell: A lot of third and fourth quarter runs.
Terry Pluto: And I really believe those tackles especially are making his life a lot easier. Even though they double team some those. Because those guys are coming up the middle and they’re shoving, you know, linemen into the quarterback. And I just really, I had no idea Malik Collins was that good.
David Campbell: Yeah, he’s been good since day one.
Terry Pluto: Right.
David Campbell: He just came in and had just started making plays. And I do think that Graham is getting better week by week. And now that he’s got the first half of his rookie season behind him, I think his best football this year is still to come. He’s. He’s really figuring it out. You can see him using more of his pass rush moves inside and yeah, he’s getting there, so.
Terry Pluto: And then he has Flushinger in the middle of the field, you know, where he can clog up that middle too, along with the ability to run from side to side. I mean, this is regardless of whether they keep the front office, don’t keep the front office, whatever this draft that Andrew Berry and his front office put together is certainly one of the best drafts probably they had since 2018. You’d have to go back, and that was with Baker and Denzel Ward, and it seems like there was somebody else. Oh, Chubb was in that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that’s. That’s all. At least that’s how I see it. All right.
David Campbell: Well, the Browns are going to be taking on the 49ers on Sunday down on the lake front in a 1pm kickoff. What do you want to see from Shador Sanders this Sunday, Terry? Do you want to see him grow. Grow his game a little bit? Do you want to see a similar approach? Well, I’ll play the Raiders, so they’re not.
Terry Pluto: Yeah, I want to see, first of all, that they give him a game plan that, you know, the old donut don’t ask him to do too much and then how he’s going to get more pressure in that. And San Francisco’s far more equipped to handle the rush than the Raiders are. But the way Miles is. Miles still may get three sacks on him, but I think maybe some of the other guys won’t be as dominant. And then what we’re going to see is if the Browns get behind, you know, will Shedeur resist his tendency to want to play hero ball? And that was. That leads to those running backwards all over the place. Because on that one, not the sack, but when it was one he made the one throw that there’s a penalty. Ross Tucker just said, and he’s former offensive because offensive linemen hate it when quarterbacks do that. You don’t know where they are.
David Campbell: I’m really interested to see. So Robert Sala, the who was in San Francisco, they went to the jets, and now he’s back in San Francisco. He’s their defensive coordinator. So, like, Nick Bosa is not there. Right. He’s hurt. Yeah, it’s. It’s not the usual 49ers pass rush that we’re going to see. And I’m going to be interested to see how much they blitz because everybody’s like, everybody saw kind of what the Ravens did when Shador Sanders got his first NFL action, and he’s had a couple weeks now to look at a lot of film. Teams also have film on him. Right. Like that they didn’t have before. But the 49ers only blitz like 18.4% of the time, which is fourth lowest in the league.
Terry Pluto: Wow.
David Campbell: Yeah. And they’re the second worst at knocking the quarterback down. They only do it on 5.9% of the plays. So, so I’m, I’m kind of interested to see, like, how much will the 49ers blitz, how much will they sit back in coverage? Kind of like the, you know, the Raiders did on interception, where a guy left his zone and was able to.
Terry Pluto: Pick the ball off.
David Campbell: Like, it’s going to be interesting to see and as you said, Terry, what the score is, how they’re going to approach the 49ers and so are they going to bring more heat? Are they going to lay back? Maybe a little bit of both. I don’t know. I’m going to be. I’m going to be watching that to see how Shador Sanders identifies what he’s seeing, where the blitzers might be coming from or not coming from, and kind of how he’s identifying what’s.
Terry Pluto: If I’m Salah, I don’t care what my glitch percentage is. Yeah, I got a rookie quarterback.
David Campbell: You’re bringing it anyway, huh?
Terry Pluto: I’m bringing early. Let’s see what he does. You could get a turnover or whatever. Art. He might hit a big play, but he also might make a big loss. I mean, it’s a. For you, for the defense, it’s high. You know, maybe you could say high risk, but it could be even high reward. So, you know, we’ll see what he does. Now, of course, the stadium is going to go crazy for him, and that’s good. That brings some life to it. And it’s just a nice situation because this, this season was just going into the Browns doldrums. And so now, you know, you look at San Francisco, then you got Tennessee at home. They’re terrible. Then they play at Chicago, home to Buffalo, Pittsburgh, Cincinnati. I mean, if he continues, unless he totally blows up, I want to see him play all those games.
David Campbell: I agree.
Terry Pluto: Let’s run them through the AFC north because he would have had a, you know, a half against the Ravens and he. Then he gets a full game with Cincinnati and Pittsburgh and then he also gets Buffalo. He gets. Get Chicago, who’s been. Been good. So really he’s only got one other softie on the, on the schedule. That’s Tennessee.
David Campbell: Well, and going into this season, Terry, like, what were the missions of the Browns going into this? Like, one was win more than three and the other and another one was let’s learn what we have in these quarterbacks. We can make a decision about next season. Right. And so that’s exactly what you’re talking about. Let him play and let’s see what he’s got and how he’s going to learn and grow into this thing and, and make big plays. Right. Can he do that? So, yeah.
Terry Pluto: All right. You know, and also then, you know, will he continue to put in all the hard and extra work that he has so far? My assumption is he will. I think he loves football enough to do that. But, you know, this will be, especially if he has a couple of good games in a row. You know, are you still there at 7am Are you still doing these other things? Because the, the guys are looking at him now. Now they’re looking at him there, but they also are looking at him. Will the celebrity quarterback do the work? If he does the work, they’ll love them, you know, and. But if not, like you’ve mentioned with Menzel and that there’s no respect. But I think the fact that he did the work up until this point was why there was a genuine enthusiasm for him playing. They saw him there early, they saw him staying after the. What, those three. Hungry dog. Hungry dogs, whatever they are, you know, they saw him putting the work in.
David Campbell: All right, Browns 49ers on Sunday at 1:00′.
Terry Pluto: Clock.
David Campbell: It’s going to be a very interesting weekend of football. So. All right, we will take a break here, Terry. When we come back, we are going to get into the Cavs, and I want to ask you a question about Chris Fedor’s article yesterday about will Evan Mobley ever become the star that the Cavs need him to be? We’ll get into that more when we come back on Terry’s Talking. Okay, we’re back on Terry’s talking. Terry, before I forget, I wanted to mention your book signings coming up. Your book is really just hitting a home run. To use a baseball analogy. Why can’t this team just find a quarterback? And other thoughts on life in Brownstown. I know you had over 200 people out at the Hudson Library last week and yeah, it’s going really good. Right? A lot of fans are responding.
Terry Pluto: Yeah, there’s like over a hundred. And we did it at the town hall in Chagrin Falls and then I think about 50 or 60 at Boardman Bernie Cosar territory. A couple people went to school at Bernie’s sister who were there. And so that was. That was really nice, too. No, they’ve been really good. And I think It’s Tuesday night, 6:30.
David Campbell: I got the dates right here. I’m running.
Terry Pluto: Yep.
David Campbell: Okay. We got Tuesday, December 2nd, at the Barnes and Noble in North Canton. That’s again, a Tuesday at 6:30. And then two days later on Thursday, December 4, you’re going to be down at Visible Voice Books in Cleveland, which we were talking about last week. Looks like a lovely bookstore. That’s going to be Thursday, December 4th at 7. And then the following week, Wednesday, December 10th, you’re at the Barnes and Noble in Westlake at Crocker park. That is a 6:30 book signing. And if you want more information on the book, just go to terryplutobook.com so.
Terry Pluto: Did I get it all right, you got it. All right.
David Campbell: All right. The Cavaliers, terry, they are 12 and 7. Been a very up and down season so far and there’s been a little discussion on our Cavs podcast with Ethan Sands, Chris Fedor, Jimmy Watkins about like how Kenny Atkinson is doing so far and how the Cavs are doing so far. And I guess one of the things we want to talk about is how would you grade, how would you rate the Cavs and how would you grade Kenny so far?
Terry Pluto: First of all, now some of it I have, I’m a big Atkinson fan. I push for him to get it, get there. I know him pretty well so it’s colored by that. But nonetheless that’s the old. All right, if I were to tell you you don’t have Garland, you know, except for like four games or whatever it is, and you don’t have struts and you don’t have this guy and that guy and then you’ve played the most games. I think their strength of schedule was the third hardest and the most games period at this point and you’re 12 and 7. Would you take it? David Campbell?
David Campbell: Probably, yeah.
Terry Pluto: Yeah. I mean there’s some clunkers in there. And also, were you looking at the team? It’s not like last year, they just fire out of the gate and everything’s going well. I mean this is not the case at all. So I think he’s done a pretty good job. And he’s also bringing along players such as Trek Porter Jr. And Tomlinson Tyson. Now if that wasn’t happening, if he were these younger guys are supposed to be prospects and that weren’t developing, then I would have a little different opinion. But that was one of his strengths. Reasons to bring him in is he was known for his ability to develop and work with young players. And because you’re in that second ace burn, all that sour calf stuff, you better find these guys from the G league non drafted, all that I believe. Of the 17 players on the roster, 10 are either second round picks or Non drafted free agents, you know, they’re not a lot of, not a lot of in the NBA. Remember, most of the time, in fact, some GMs don’t even care about second round picks. They just, they’ll trade four of them at a time. They don’t. It’s like it almost doesn’t matter.
David Campbell: Yeah, I, I think like none of this matters right now. Right. Like the whole point of like you want the season to be the opposite of last year, which is a, you know, maybe not a fast start, but a big finish. Last year was a fast start and a disappointing finish. So I think Cavs fans would definitely trade a disappointing start and a big finish without question. And no Max Struse and barely any Darius Garland. So like, and the other night in Toronto, I mean, they go there, they barely have enough guys to get through the game with all the guys that were listed as an actor, you know.
Terry Pluto: They don’t talk about this, but Hunter has kind of a cranky knee and if you look at his career, he misses 15 games a year, sometimes even a little more. And that’s part of it. So that’s, that’s why like he’s out. But sometimes it’s like not like a knee injury, just a cranky knee. And. But where it does matter, David, is you are developing these secondary guys.
David Campbell: Oh, for sure. I just want the wins and losses. You know, you’re watching the game, you’re at the game, you’re like, you want.
Terry Pluto: The CAVS to win 12 and 7 versus 14 and 5. Okay, what’s the difference versus, you know, 10. And I don’t. Wouldn’t want to be 10 and 9, you know, but whatever it is. But the point is I’m not really concerned at all. And I been a big Kenny advocate and I remain so. And I like the fact that, you know, he, he still is hitting on things that he wants the team to do. He’s still hitting on the rebounding theme. He’s not afraid to say we didn’t bring the juice tonight. Some coaches are afraid to say that publicly. He’s not afraid to say that. And, but he does, generally. He tends to criticize and general terms. That’s why I said generally, which is the way a smart coach does it.
David Campbell: Well, and like to your point earlier, Terry, a lot of these younger guys are getting a lot of minutes and a lot of experience against some, you know, some good teams and good players, and that will benefit them down the road in one way or another.
Terry Pluto: So they’re gonna play. I mean, Tomlin and Tyson. I don’t care if the whole crew’s back. They’re gonna play some because. Okay, I know right now I wrote about the energy pack idea, you know, where you bring an energy group, and I know that’s something that Kenny has looked at also. And that could be a thing where you don’t have, quote, the Juice, and maybe they are where you have your guys back. So you could just come in and Ball could be part of that, too. Right now, Ball can’t make a shot to save his life, but he still moved. I looked the other day, he had like six rebounds up in Toronto. It looks like he could hardly jump. And he gets. He gets rebounds, he passes the ball. And if he’s out there with the. The young Colts running around, because the other day, Atkinson called Tomlin a racehorse, a thoroughbred. So, you know, that’s. That would be something that would help. Help the Cavs, too.
David Campbell: All right, so this Evan Mobley thing, let’s get into this. All right, so Chris Fedor was up in Toronto covering the game, and he put up a story yesterday, basically asking that there was one stat from the box score in Toronto that was alarming. And it raises the question of, you know, we’ve been reading for a few years here, Terry, that Evan Mobley is an MVP type talent, and Cavs are determined to get him there. And kind of getting him unlocked as the term is, is what’s going to make the Cavs take that next leap. There’s people around the league who said this. People in Cleveland have said this. So Chris’s story was basically asking, like, is this ever going to happen? The other night, Evan Mobley took seven shots.
Terry Pluto: Seven.
David Campbell: And as Chris pointed out, that was one more than Luke Travers, one less than Naquan Tomlin, and nearly half as many as Lonzo Ball. So if you’ve got a depleted team and your supposed number two option is available, you have Donovan Mitchell and Evan Mobley. And Evan Mobley is the number two guy. Right? Like, why isn’t Evan Mobley taking more than seven shots? And is this a big deal, Terry? Like, is this indicative that something is not progressing as it should?
Terry Pluto: Okay, when Evan Moly came into the league, what were his strengths?
David Campbell: Defense. Rebounding.
Terry Pluto: Right. Yeah. Yeah. Nobody said this guy was going to be a 25 point scorer back then. They’re hopeless to get. You get him up to 20 now. I think one of the mistakes the Cavs have made, and I’ve written this, is this line of, we’ll only go as far as Evan takes us, I don’t think, first of all, the best player is Donovan Mitchell, and I doubt Evan Mobley’s going to be better than Donovan Mitchell. Donovan Mitchell is phenomenal because you also have the whole leadership thing with Donovan, too. I mean, he, that he’s the second best player in Cavs history, and so he is a guy that can take over a game. Mobley’s not going to have these quarters like Donovan where you score 14 points in the fourth quarter or something. He’s not, because he still, yes, his ball handling for, for a big man is pretty good, but it’s not elite ball handling and shot creating skills. And secondly, his mindset, which I’ve always loved, is unselfishness and getting the, you know, moving the ball and just all the stuff on defense. Sometimes a guy like that, that’s the kind of player he is. So he averages 15 to 18. I want him on double figures and rebounds. I don’t want him taking only seven shots a night like that in Toronto. But I, and finally, David, we talked about this a couple of weeks ago. I think he’s still struggling. Like, where are my best shots?
David Campbell: But okay, so I’m going to play devil’s advocate here, Terry. So this is year five, right? And we’ve talked about this on the podcast. His numbers are down. This is, this is not something that you and I and Chris Fedor and people cover. The team is like, the Cavs have said, this guy can be an mvp. He can be Giannis. Like, they’ve flat out said that. And what you’re talking about is not that. I mean, all right, let’s talk about an all.
Terry Pluto: Talking about an All Star but not an MVP candidate, right?
David Campbell: I mean, Evan Mobley is the reigning defensive player of the year. He’s in his fifth season. He’s, he’s, he’s an All Star, right? Like, he’s, he’s a really good player and the Cavs love having him. But I, I, I’m thinking about. You watch Shaq on, in between games and, or at halftime, and sometimes he’ll just be like, well, this is the time when you just got to grab the ball and go out and you got to score 25 to 28 points. That’s what you got to do for your team, right?
Terry Pluto: Right.
David Campbell: He says that all the time. So should the Cavs be telling Evan Mobley, like, listen, you need to be scoring 24 to 26 points a night for that is your job. Go out and do it. What they should tell him or is what you’re talking about. Should that be the Evan Mobley that the Cavs are wanting, which is unselfish, you know, not taking all the shots that maybe a Donovan Mitchell would take if he’s having an off night? What do you see here?
Terry Pluto: What I see is when he tries to force it, David, he takes a lot of shots from bad places. That’s what I see. Where it’s just possible that he is not going to be this hall of Fame elite scorer, because as you said, it’s your five. Nonetheless, if he’s on NBA all defensive team and he’s scoring 15 to 18 and he’s on a really good team, you win a title with that guy, he just isn’t leading you to the title. And also, yes, Giannis is. He’s just unique. He really is. The way he plays at that size and that. But you look at the. The scores around the rest of the league, they tend to be small forwards or shooting guards or guards, because right now, some of the point guards, too, they’re not big guys anymore. They’re just not. And that’s. That’s how. That’s how I see it. Because I’ve always liked Mobley, but I never fell into this. I remember for a while they were, you know, jb, you know, hall of Fame and this and that. See how he. Where he develops. Well, you’re in Year five now. The other thing that it would be interesting to know was Mobley dealing with some sort of ankle or other injury that night. Because a lot of times we don’t know this. You don’t find out till later. Because one thing about Mobley, I mean, he. He cares. He’s. His parents did such a great job with him, and his younger brother plays, or older brother actually plays the same way. He just 3 inches shorter and he just doesn’t. The ability of Evan, but the same thing. I mean, he knows how to switch on defense and move the ball and, you know, all the right stuff. And that’s what I admire a guy like that. I want him on the team.
David Campbell: Plays the right way.
Terry Pluto: Yes. All the time. And I don’t want to say he’s got to score 25 points. I just don’t. That’s my opinion.
David Campbell: So you’re okay with it? Just to sum up here, you’re okay with it if this is kind of what Evan Mobley is for the next.
Terry Pluto: 10 years of his career, not okay with seven shots in Toronto on that. I don’t know what’s going on. That. But in general like, he played last year and this year. Yes, that is a really, really good All Star player.
David Campbell: All right.
Terry Pluto: That’s. That’s it. I mean, they talk about, for example, if you watch Kate Cunningham, you know, who’s emerging as a superstar, you know, with Detroit, with jb. But that ball is in his hands a lot. And it. I remember one time. I know, okay. Talking to Wayne Embry, and the subject was Brad Dougherty, you know, why doesn’t Brad score more or whatever? And Wayne, sitting away in a former NBA center, made the All Star team several times. GM of the team at the time, said he can’t bring the ball up and pass it to himself.
David Campbell: But Evan Mobley can.
Terry Pluto: He can, but it’s not a good look, David. You know, he starts. He dribbles himself into trouble. Now, granted, if there’s only one guy between him and the basket, but when there’s a couple of guys or whatever, he gets himself in trouble trying to force it. That’s my feeling.
David Campbell: I just want to go back to this. Like, Terry, the people in the building at the Cavs facility, they’ve. His nickname has been MVP over the last couple years because they want to push him to this. Okay, but the player you’re describing is not what they have envisioned for him. There’s going to be a gap. There is what you’re telling me.
Terry Pluto: I mean, you’re okay with that? Yeah. I mean, okay, you know, so you’re. So you’re shooting for the planet Pluto intentionally, the farthest in the galaxy, but you only reach, you know, the stars instead. That’s. That’s. That’s another thing. That’s me. I want to see him continue to evolve, but I’m not going to just sit there and say, boy, this guy’s got to put up 25 a night. It’s just. I don’t see it.
David Campbell: Well, or even just put up 28 when. When your bench is depleted and your star player isn’t on, like, that’s your game to go back to Shaq. Like, it’s your game. You gotta.
Terry Pluto: Like, they put so much emphasis on him and handling the ball and being on their perimeter, they forget the fact, you know, Doherty pounds on it all the time. And I’m glad that. That jump hook with him inside there, that’s one of the shots that can get you some points, but you’re not going to dribble the ball up, go and shoot your jump hook. I mean, that’s just not going to happen.
David Campbell: Right. All right, well, this will be an interesting thing. To track. And you know, I look at, I look at like Chet Holmgren, right, with okc and like they’re, they’re built kind of the same way. Yeah, there’s Holmgren’s kind of on the. I mean he missed his first season because he was hurt, but like they’re kind of on the same trajectory and I want to see maybe in a year or two like who’s a bigger, a bigger part of their team’s goals. Right. And getting, getting championships.
Terry Pluto: I mean a nice thing is like you got him with the number three pick. You nailed it. Yeah, you nailed the number three pick as a defensive player of the year who continually be on the all NBA defensive teams and some years make all star teams and on top of it, you know, good guy, bought the right stuff, all those things.
David Campbell: No, for sure. And like we would not have it, we wouldn’t have this discussion right now if it was not. It’s coming from within the organization.
Terry Pluto: I know.
David Campbell: Like this is this, this vision of what he can be.
Terry Pluto: So that’s why I fell in love with him. You know, he took him and, and, and he, and he got it right. But sometimes you have to. All right, I’ve been watching this for several years. Play to the guy strength.
David Campbell: All right. The Cavs have some post Thanksgiving games coming up. They’re in Atlanta on Friday and then they’re back home on Sunday against the Celtics. That’s a six o’ clock tip off on Sunday evening. And then Monday they are back on the road for the second half of a back to back at Indiana at seven. So. All right. Some guardian stuff. Terry, in your newsletter this week, you kind of got into the details. We mentioned Josh Naylor’s new contract last week. You got into it. You got into great detail in your newsletter today. Go to cleveland.com Pluto go to the blue bar at the top and you can get two weeks free of Terry’s weekly newsletter. I know you were surprised last week when I mentioned that he had a no trade contract, no trade clause. But now that you’ve kind of dug into a little bit more, what are you taking away from Josh Naylor’s big deal?
Terry Pluto: Five years. 92 million. 11 million. 17 million, 19 million. 21 million, 23 million. No trade clause. He had a really good year at 295. 816 OPS, 20 homers and 92 RBIS. The most remarkable stat 30 stolen basis. Clearly he was probably looking for a contract sort of like this a year ago, which then led the Guardians to trade him. You Know, they got Slade saccony, 7 and 7, a 429 ERA, and they receive the 70th draft pick, which they took a high school pitcher named Will Hines, who will really basically officially start his pro career in 26. That’s big money for him. We’ll see if he continues to stay in shape and do it. I mean, there’s a little bit of a concern. Did he get himself in better shape? Although, frankly, looked about the same to me. But in a contract year, you know, will he stay healthy? And. But I could see one. That’s one thing. If I’m Josh neighbor and they throw that kind of money at me and you even ask for no trade clause and they give it to you, you sign that all the time. Why is it no trade important, David?
David Campbell: Because you can use it as leverage.
Terry Pluto: Yes.
David Campbell: As you’ve talked about a lot. Yeah, a lot.
Terry Pluto: Yeah. And I never thought about the. Deshaun Watson pulled it off where it used to be. Well, you just do that. So you don’t go to a place you don’t want to go, but you could go. But I’ll go to that place if I get a new contract, or I’ll go to that place for an extra 10 million or I’ll. So that’s a. In other words, if you get tired of Josh Naylor or you feel you have some young first basement coming up for the minors and I need to trade Naylor for pitching help or whatever, it becomes hard to do. Jose Ramirez gets a no trade. You know, Aaron Judd gets those guys who are the franchise going to the hall of Fame, they get, in my mind, they get a no trade. Nobody else does. If somebody else does that, say, show me your numbers like Jose Ramirez, and I’ll give you one, too.
David Campbell: You’re a tough bargainer, Terry. No.
Terry Pluto: Well, it is, in fact, maybe there’s been another Cleveland baseball player with a no trade. I don’t know who it is. No one comes to mind.
David Campbell: I can’t think of many. Yeah, there are not that many.
Terry Pluto: So because of. Because of that, it limits where you trade them, and then it can get into all kinds of money things. So.
David Campbell: Okay, we have a lot of emails from listeners about the gambling investigation, and I’m gonna try and roll them in here as I can because there’s a lot of people who are still thinking about it and have some ideas about it. So this one is from Bill Maris in Medina. Bill’s a longtime listener. He says love the podcast and Terry’s writing. One thought came to me this week in regard to the Class A Ortiz indictment and suspensions in regard to a previous issue for Class A. When they first got him, Class A was suspended from what amount to 60 games due to taking performance enhancing drugs. I haven’t seen this mentioned in the media, but if you were the guardians, wouldn’t this put Class A on a closer watch due to what happened right off the bat? I’m reading a book right now about the unspoken rules of baseball, the Baseball Codes by Jason Turbo. Multiple times the idea is mentioned as what happens in the clubhouse stays in the clubhouse. Could what Class A was doing, such as talking to gamblers during the game, be kept under wraps as part of that idea? Too far fetched. I’d love to hear your thoughts. I just wonder at some point, where is the team, particularly coaching staff, responsible for, for keeping these guys in line for the sake of the team. Thanks for all you do. And again, that’s Bill Maris. So what do you think of all that, Terry?
Terry Pluto: Well, on the, in terms of the, the drug thing, the pd, the performance enhancing drugs, I’m sure because of that they drug. He gets drug tested a lot more than others. That’s probably what they were looking at. You know, it doesn’t necessarily means, oh, he, you know, he took steroids, so that means he’s going to go gamble. That can. Because, you know, a lot of these guys have been nailed on that over the years. And so I, you know, I don’t know, I mean if he, I mean, you read that stuff and I have to admit, I’m just dumbfounded, you know, texturing games and that. I really want to know how this came out and I want to know why Ortiz was nailed first and then Class A. That is an interesting order to me.
David Campbell: Yeah, we may never know. We may never know that. No, but if I had to guess, I, I think what happens is there’s a huge amount of money bet on. Hey, this first pitch in the eighth inning is going to be a ball and it’s going to be 93 miles an hour. There’s. If somebody drops $100,000 on a crazy weird bet like that.
Terry Pluto: Yeah.
David Campbell: They have software that, that alarm bells go off and I, I think that’s where it all started.
Terry Pluto: Yeah, that’s right.
David Campbell: You never know. It could have been something else.
Terry Pluto: But what I’m saying is, okay, so that set off the Ortiz watch. How does it go then to Class A?
David Campbell: Maybe they started looking at the text messages and everything. I don’t know.
Terry Pluto: Yeah, let’s see something right there. You go, I think Ortiz led to class A. Even a classe obviously was the instigator with Ortiz. And it’s, it’s a, I mean how about this though? Wasn’t it interesting the NBA when Terry Rozier and Chauncey Billups were hit that they were immediately suspended without pay. Where baseball, it’s on paid leave. Shows the difference between the strength of the two unions, by the way.
David Campbell: Definitely.
Terry Pluto: Now granted Chauncey was a coach, but nonetheless. Or Roti Rozier’s not.
David Campbell: Yeah. The baseball union, much bigger. And going back to Bill’s question, Terry, about like how did nobody notice this? And whether if you see somebody gambling. I don’t think there’s many people in pro sports where if they saw somebody gambling they wouldn’t say something.
Terry Pluto: Yeah.
David Campbell: Because it’s messing with your livelihood as well as their own. And I also think, you know, in the bullpen. I’ve read a lot of stories over the years about the bullpen and how it’s like this, this Killing Time club.
Terry Pluto: Yeah.
David Campbell: They’re just out there basically waiting for the seventh inning to come.
Terry Pluto: I just think he’s texting some.
David Campbell: You, you, somebody watch everything These guys do 24 7. I mean class. I might have gone into the bathroom and been sitting on the toilet.
Terry Pluto: I bet that’s where he would go.
David Campbell: You can’t watch these guys every minute of every day. And if they’re going to text their girlfriend or their wife or their friend from college in between innings about, hey, you know, can I meet you for like you can’t. Can I, can we meet for dinner after the game? I haven’t seen you in a while. Like you don’t know what they’re texting to who at what time. And I just think that’s. It’s probably not something that goes to.
Terry Pluto: Trial just because I’d like to hear more because if they cop a plea, the lid comes on everything.
David Campbell: Yeah, that would be fascinating stuff. So. All right, a big football game on Saturday coming up, Terry. Ohio State at Michigan at noon. Ohio State’s going to look to snap a four game losing streak. Are you going to watch this? Are you excited for it?
Terry Pluto: Yeah, I’ll watch it. Sure. And what do you think it means?
David Campbell: Oh, I think it means a lot. There’s been a lot of talk over the recent years about like the, with the playoff expanding and you look last year Ohio State lost to Michigan and then won the national championship. Like, well, will the Michigan game mean anything? I think if you asked the players and coaches on both Teams this week, like, they hate each other at this point. And there are guys on this Ohio State team who have never beaten Michigan, and there are guys on the Michigan. I think the whole team’s actually. All the guys on Ohio State have never Michigan. All the guys on Michigan have never lost to Ohio State. And I, like, I know it’s hard when kids are in college, but, like, if you. This is about legacy, right? And 20 years from now, when these guys come back to campus, like, what are they going to be remembered for? Well, it’s national championships. And did you beat Ohio State or did you beat Michigan? That’s what they’re going to be remembered for. And so I think this game is. It means as much as it ever did. Maybe not in terms of the Big Ten championship or, you know, every year it won’t be for the Big Ten championship anymore because there’s now a championship game. And if Iowa State wins, it’s going to be Indiana and OSU most likely. But this is a lot. It’s legacy, and that’s why it’s important. How do you see it?
Terry Pluto: And the expanded playoff thing takes the edge out of whether you win the Big Ten or not, as long as you get in the playoffs and go. That’s. But in terms of what’s by far your most regular season, important regular season game, that’s it. Ryan Day has to be just so sick of this. I mean, I’m sure he’s tried everything from it’s not a big game to its Armageddon. He’s probably flipped on both sides of. To see what works.
David Campbell: And that’s when you bring that up, Terry, because Stefan Kreisnick, one of our Ohio State writers, actually had a story a couple of days ago, and it was, does Ohio State care too much?
Terry Pluto: Yes.
David Campbell: About winning. And it’s exactly what you’re talking about. And Stefan interviewed a lot of people. And actually Ryan Day, usually in Michigan week, Ohio State would have Monday interviews and then nothing the rest of the week, and Michigan would have Monday interviews and nothing the rest of the week. And Ohio State used to have the band come during Michigan week to practice, to play for the players. And like, Ryan Day has gotten. He’s changed a lot of stuff where now they’re just having normal availability on Monday. On Tuesdays and Wednesdays, the band is not coming because they’re usually not there. Right. They did it a different week. And he’s trying to make it as much like a normal week as possible, which I thought was really interesting, because it kind of goes back to what you said about just trying to make it to not overthink it. Right.
Terry Pluto: Yeah. And same thing with their game plan. Remember the Michigan game last year? It was just horribly put together. I’m trying to recall what, what they were not doing.
David Campbell: They were trying to prove they could run the ball and.
Terry Pluto: Yeah, that was all between the tackles.
David Campbell: Yep.
Terry Pluto: Yeah, we’re in a man up and that where you got all these wonderful receivers. And let’s face it, you have a quarterback that did get drafted the fifth round by the Steelers. He had an NFL caliber quarterback for the draft. And you’re. And you’re correct. It’s like it’s 1952 and let’s see if we can knock him off the line. That made just no sense. I mean just call your rigor game.
David Campbell: Yeah. And I think they are going to try to just do what they do.
Terry Pluto: This week much better than Michigan. Michigan’s in a bit of a turmoil and everything this year with things. So that’ll be, that’ll be fun. But I mean what. Dave’s legacy has changed totally after winning the national title and doing it the hard way with the playoff system. Is it four games they had to win, I believe. I know they knocked off Tennessee and they knocked off Oregon early on and I kept thinking there was another game in there before the title.
David Campbell: Texas and Notre Dame.
Terry Pluto: So they’re four. Yeah, it’s four games. Four games.
David Campbell: All right. Well, this is the beginning of the really fun time of college football. So again, noon on Saturday up in Ann Arbor and the weather is going to be cold and kind of wintery. So that’ll add to the drama, I am sure. So. All right, Terry, it’s been a while since we’ve done one of these, but you have a book you’ve been reading lately that you wanted to share with people. Why don’t you talk about that?
Terry Pluto: Okay. It’s called Ernie Pyle’s War. Ernie Pyle, P Y L E War by James Tobin. Ernie Pyle is considered one of the greatest war correspondents ever during World War II. This is a really good biography and what I liked about it not only talks about war correspondence, it gives you a really good feel for just how World War II not only was covered, just what was going on, how the country was at the time. It’s available on Amazon. It came out, I think in 98, but you can get it. I think it’s worthwhile. Ernie Pyle’s writing is spectacular because it so just takes you right there in short sentences. That are easy to read. And I just really believe that for people who like good writing, it’s worth reading. And also it, it also shows you that this guy who was in these different war zones, Ernie. Was then killed during the invasion of Japan. And. Yeah, he was. He kept going back to these different battles and started to get the dread in any of the. If we have any of our friends or elders, people listening who did multiple duties in Afghanistan and Iraq. You just, you keep thinking, you know, the bullpen, there’s a bullet out there with my name on it. And that’s what happened. But it really is sort of a thing of. I, I found that the, the, the writing in the, the, the book really good. And also just that the. To read. He’s got a lot of his columns in here. Check it out. I think all of a sudden now we’re, you know, because the war ended in 1945, so we are. So that’s 55. We are 75 years away from that. The end of it. So it’s starting to get, especially to some of us who are younger, almost like the Civil War is to me. Yeah.
David Campbell: Crazy to think about.
Terry Pluto: Yeah. That far back.
David Campbell: Ernie Pyle, he went to Indiana University, if I remember. Grew up in Indiana and a bunch of buildings and scholarships are named after him.
Terry Pluto: Yeah. He grew up in a town called Dana D A N A Indiana. And he, you know, how about this? He was writing six columns a week. Probably think I’m a slacker after that.
David Campbell: Well, you do like 10. So.
Terry Pluto: Yeah. But yeah, I’m not getting shot at.
David Campbell: That’s true.
Terry Pluto: I’m not sitting there, you know, writing it in some tent while you hear the mortars going off. You know, I’m not there trying to find the Western Union guy that. The guy to. On the, on the, the. The remote system to call it into Western Union, you know.
David Campbell: That is true.
Terry Pluto: Yeah. It, it was so it, it’s really. I mean, he has one story about how this is in, I think the Italian campaign where they were bringing. They were sending mules up a hill to bring the bodies back down when they try to stuff like that. And what you sense too, is him bringing the everyman soldier and kind of the dignity out of it because we’ve had nothing, those of us. I mean, you almost have to be like 90 or something to really have a feel for. For how World War II was on the country where, you know, the world was hanging in the balance of which way this was going to go. And both sides are playing to win totally. So that’s anyway Ernie Pyle’s war also just go online and Google some of his columns and read some of his columns for World War II.
David Campbell: I remember a lot of writers from that era, Terry, that were so. They were such great storytellers as well as reporters. It was just. It was simple, clear, powerful language that really just like you said, captured the. The moments of the war and other. Other things.
Terry Pluto: I remember Lou Groza telling me. It’s in one of my books, I think, on the Ramstown 64 he was with in the. In the army during the invasion of the Pacific theater. I think it was at Leyte was the Iowan that they. There was some of the worst fighting. And he said, I just remember I came in kind of back and he said now that they had moved up the hill, but there were still guys on the beach. And he said, we saw guys. He was a newbie, you know, going through the dead. Our dead guys taking out, well, I could use that food. I’m going to take those cigarettes. He goes, we have one guy. One. One guy goes, he’s knocking the gold out of people’s teeth and taking that. We go, no, we’re not having that. But it was, you know, survival. The guy’s dead. And they said some guys told grows up, hey, man, we don’t know how long we’re going to go up there. We’re going to have. You can go. They got some stuff there. You better get it.
David Campbell: Yeah, just. It. It’s just so crazy to think about. And that’s why they were called the Greatest Generation. Right?
Terry Pluto: Like, I’m talking to Lou and I just asked him vaguely about World War II, because that’s where he was before he came to the Browns program. And he went into this story about this, and I’m like, oh, wow. And, you know, it was coming near the end of his life, I think, and it just was something that he had been thinking about.
David Campbell: I remember reading Tom Brokaw’s book about that, which was called the Greatest Generation. And so many guys who came back from World War II, like, never wanted to talk about it ever again. So it’s interesting that Lou Grozzo kind of, you know, would open up about something.
Terry Pluto: Like some of the people, it happened real late when they got 60s, 70s there. All of a sudden it’s like, yeah, this has been in me the whole time. And so unfortunately, you know, unfortunately, Pyle would have been. And the other thing that happened with Pyle, this. That also was interesting. He became the celebrity reporter near the end and so like he would worry before he would just kind of blend in with the troops. And one of the guys here, like, he’d show up especially in the Pacific towards the end and guys wanted his autograph and all this other stuff. So that was kind of messing with how I do my job. You know, I’m the storyteller, I’m not the story.
David Campbell: Right. All right. Ernie Pyle’s War, America’s Eyewitness to World War II by James Tobin. Thanks, Terry. That’s good. I wanted to mention I know you’ve got a lot of response to your faith in you column last week was, which was about dealing with an empty chair at Thanksgiving when you’ve lost somebody or at the holidays. Dealing with an empty chair at the holidays. Cbroddy35, wrote us an email. I just wanted to share it because I thought some people might be able to take something away from this. And CB Roddy says, Terry, your column today reminded me of something many years ago. I read somewhere, a suggested solution for the empty chair problem. Sit in it yourself. I tried it when my husband died 14 years ago. Instead of looking at the empty space where he belonged, I could feel his presence. This may not help everyone, but it is easy to try. So yours, CB Roddy. Thanks, CBRoddy35, for that. That’s this really kind of different approach and I think it’s something that we wanted to share here. So thank you for sending that in.
Terry Pluto: And one of the things too, the guy who wrote me, Robert, I forgot who it was. It doesn’t, the name doesn’t matter. But he sought after his taking care of his wife all these years. At the end, the second guessing of himself, I could have done this. I didn’t do that. Don’t fall into that. That’s a spiritual battle. Don’t fall into it. Nobody involved in long term health care feels like you’re getting everything right. I’ve been there a couple times because most of the time you are being presented with, let’s see, A, that’s not a very good option. Ooh, B, that’s a bad idea. See, why am I even thinking about that? That’s terrible. There’s no good options. Nursing home, not nursing home, but we. The home health care. But we bring into home health care these folks don’t show up. So, you know, it becomes all these things of what to do. There are no good options. That doesn’t mean just throw your hands up and quit. But after the person passes, I really believe that we are, we are in a spiritual Warfare sometimes. And we get these thoughts that are just destructive and we should not fall into that pattern.
David Campbell: Everybody does the best they can in those situations. And it’s something that, like you said, Terry, people should remind themselves of that.
Terry Pluto: A friend of ours right now that we made in the Upper Peninsula and Roberta’s been texting her. In fact, I just saw one pop up. She’s been dealing with this long thing of hospice at home and that she hasn’t said a word and hasn’t won’t eat anything. And even with the tube in the last 10 days, I mean, just goes on and on. And they were, the family was taking care of them the best they could. But anybody knows that it’s hard to get consistent home health care coming in because those people have lives too that are there. And it’s just. It’s really rough.
David Campbell: All right, if you haven’t checked out Terry’s Faith in you column from last week, go to cleveland.com Pluto you will see it there. And also Terry has one coming out this weekend as well. Again, same place. So. All right. We mentioned early in the podcast here about everybody traveling this week, and I kind of wanted to end with this email since it’s a little bit far flung. This is from Chris Labdell and Chris writes in. Hey, Terry, I read and listen to your podcast from St. Thomas in the U.S. virgin Islands. Before I listen to that, I listened to you from Houston, Texas. Thank you for allowing me to stay up to date on Cleveland sports. So thought that was neat to hear from Chris. And thanks for sending in Chris. We. We’ve heard from people in, like, Europe and, and the Philippines and Thailand, Australia. It’s been really fun to see everybody listening to the Terry’s Talking podcast. So thank you for, for that. So. So that’s it. I think we’re good.
Terry Pluto: That is it.
David Campbell: All right. You cooking for Thanksgiving, Terry? What do you guys say? You’re gonna.
Terry Pluto: No, we’re going to the haven of rest to do the service. Right?
David Campbell: Yeah.
Terry Pluto: And then we are eating turkey with the boys. Yes.
David Campbell: That’s what we’ll be doing here at my place too. So we’ll be having turkey with the family. Should be good.
Terry Pluto: Yeah.
David Campbell: Have a wonderful holiday, everybody. Thanks for listening again. We’re approaching our 200th episode and it is all because of you. Thank you and enjoy the holiday. We’ll see you next week. Terry’s Talking.