CLEVELAND, Ohio — In this episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast, host Ethan Sands and guest Spencer Davies break down why the Cavs’ habits, effort level and approach simply don’t match the expectations of a team that talks about contending but hasn’t proven anything yet.
Takeaways:
The Final Play Against Boston Raises Questions
Both speakers heavily questioned the coaching decision by Kenny Atkinson in the final seconds of the 117-115 loss to the Celtics. With the game on the line, star player Donovan Mitchell was tasked with inbounding the ball instead of being the primary option for the final shot. The play, designed for Darius Garland, was disrupted by the Celtics’ defense, forcing a difficult, last-second attempt by Evan Mobley that failed. This decision was seen as a misuse of Mitchell, the team’s best clutch scorer, highlighting a potentially critical coaching misstep in a high-leverage situation and leaving Mitchell feeling helpless in a pivotal moment.
A Concerning Lack of Urgency from Star Players
A recurring theme is the Cavaliers’ tendency for slow starts and a lack of consistent energy, particularly from their core stars. The speakers contrasted this with the high-energy performance of bench players like Jaylon Tyson and Craig Porter Jr., who often provide the spark to get the team back into games. Tyson, a second-year player, even publicly stated that the team “wasn’t hungry enough” and sometimes plays on “cruise control.” This dynamic raises serious questions about the mentality and accountability of the team’s highest-paid players, who are being outworked by role players fighting for minutes.
Fundamentals and Team Identity are Slipping
The Cavaliers are struggling with a breakdown in fundamental basketball, which is creating multiple “blueprints” for opponents to beat them. The team ranks 19th in free throw attempts and a dismal 26th in free throw percentage, undermining their paint-attack strategy. Furthermore, weaknesses in transition defense and rebounding are being consistently exploited by opponents. This lack of execution on controllable aspects of the game, combined with constant lineup changes due to injuries, has prevented the team from establishing a consistent identity, leading to repeated bad habits 21 games into the season.
Donovan Mitchell’s Silence Speaks Volumes
Donovan Mitchell’s unusual decision not to speak with the media following the loss was interpreted as a significant sign of deep frustration. Known for his leadership and willingness to face tough questions, his silence was compared to his helplessness during a past playoff series. The speakers speculated that this frustration might stem from questioning whether the current team possesses the mental toughness and consistency required to be a legitimate championship contender. Mitchell’s silence fueled concerns about his long-term view of the team’s potential, especially given his high competitive standards and desire to win.
Injury Excuses and Future Roster Challenges
While injuries to key players are a valid factor in the team’s struggles, there is a concern that the Cavaliers are waiting for their return to be a “savior” rather than building winning habits with the available players. The hosts argued that excuses only go so far and that the re-acclimation of players like Max Strus may not be a seamless fix. Integrating returning starters could disrupt the roles of players who have stepped up, create tough rotation decisions for Atkinson, and potentially ruffle feathers within the locker room, suggesting the path back to being a cohesive, fully healthy unit is fraught with its own set of challenges.
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Transcript
NOTE: This transcript was generated by artificial intelligence and could contain misspellings and errors.
Ethan Sands: What up Cavs Nation? I’m your host Ethan Sands and I’m back with another episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. And with me today I have a very special guest. But before we bring him on, let’s take a moment to give some well deserved flowers. Spencer Davies is the guest for today’s podcast and he has spent more than a decade carving out a real presence in basketball media. Not just as a writer, but as an editor, producer, on camera, voice and trusted storyteller whose work shows up everywhere the game lives. He’s one of those people who understands basketball from every single angle and it comes through in the way that he breaks the game down. He’s a proud Akron Zips graduate. Spencer built his career with the work ethic that people inside the league genuinely respect. You’ve seen his long form features@rg.org, you’ve heard him on courtside with cash for SI, you’ve watched the locker room moments he captures blow up all over social media, and you probably read something of his that explained the game a little more clearly than it looked on tv as he’s the newest HE Cavs beat reporter for clutch points. But as someone who gets a seat next to him every single home game of the Cleveland Cavaliers at Rockin Arena, I know how he covers the game. Someone who understands the league goes far deeper than surface level takes. And that’s exactly why I have him on this episode of the podcast. So for the listeners, you’re in good hands today. And Spencer Davies, welcome to the show.
Spencer Davies: Appreciate you having me on Ian. I appreciate that entire introduction. That was very nice of you, so I thank you for that of course.
Ethan Sands: But we’re going to start today’s podcast by of course going into the Cavs latest game and latest loss 117 115Boston Celtics came in on the second night of a back to back and handed the Cavs the third straight loss. Spencer this is a team that was down by 21 points in the third quarter at one point and they were able to claw back on the backs of their bench once again. A team that is known for its star players had to lean on its depth and then of course as we know the fourth quarter became the Star Show. Darius Garland, Donovan Mitchell combining for 22 of the Cavs 36 points in the final frame. But the game did not end how they saw fit. They actually had to go to someone a little bit different than Donovan Mitchell because they didn’t have Lonzo Ball to pass the ball in. It had to Go to Evan Mobley because the Celtics blew up the play that Kenny Atkinson drew to get Darius Garland the ball. Evan Mobley took a 21 footer, didn’t go in, didn’t even get it off in time. There’s a lot of questions from tonight’s game, but I want to start about how it ended. What do you think about Kenny Atkinson going with a play that was designed not for Donovan Mitchell in a closing moment where we know he lives for those games?
Spencer Davies: Yeah, I don’t really understand that one. Donovan Mitchell is clearly your clutchest player on the team and he’s somebody that draws a lot of attention to. So if you have him on the floor, then you’re going to probably drag a couple defenders with him. So I don’t understand how having him inbound the ball is advantageous. And you know, I level with Kenny because I think he’s a brilliant basketball mind. I think he got this one wrong. I do. I think he got this one wrong. You know, I like that they put Evan in that situation to try and take a shot at the end of the game. He was having a really good game. The last couple had been really good for him, especially on the glass, really cleaning up more like himself. But yeah, I’m. I’m not sure why having Donovan inbound the ball there was, was the best decision. Clearly, as you said, when you’re talking to him in the locker room, that wasn’t the play was. Wasn’t to get Evan a fade away, long contested two. That was not what the plan was. But they blew it up because of, you know, some physical play. And you know, credit to the Celtics because they, they came in there and, and they beat him down. They beat him down. It was just too much, too little, too late for the Cavs going down the stretch. But yeah, we’ll, we’ll get into some, some of the stuff that, that’s concerning me for right now. But on, on that play, I just think he probably had a better option to go to there. But I, again, I understand them putting Evan in that situation though my thought.
Ethan Sands: Process, when I looked over and seven seconds left and you see Amari Williams with a seven foot five wingspan, I’m like, Donovan’s not getting the ball over for a lob in that situation. You know who could. Evan Mobley. And of course you might need to put a player in like Naquan Tomlin who’s going to go and get a basketball, get a lob or whatever. But I think the play design needs to have multiple wrinkles so if a Boston Celtics team that’s playoff driven that have that experience and can have the defensive acumen to blow plays up like that does that, you have second relief vows. And obviously the two relief vows are Darius and Evan in this situation. But as you mentioned, not having Donovan Mitchell on the floor is definitely precarious to me when he is one of the best scorers in the league to date. So I do want to get into the rest of tonight’s matchup though, because as you mentioned, this team was not in it from the beginning and we talked about it 21 points down in the third quarter, but this Cavs team has continuously got off to slow starts. They continue to rely on their bench step to come in and kind of have this jolt of energy to wake them up or be like, hey, the guy that’s getting paid $5 million a year is out here busting his tail. I might want to getting paid $100 million a year. Spencer I just think it’s a difficult conversation with when you have players like Jaylon Tyson coming into the locker room after the game where Donovan Mitchell didn’t speech, which was also very strange to me because he always talks win or loss. But Jaylon Tyson coming in and having to be the voice of reason saying that the team wasn’t hungry enough, saying that the team has to play to a different caliber and I don’t think you should have to have a second year player coming in and saying that. Spencer Obviously Jalen Tyson has had a great start to the season. He was in the starting rotation, but he still considers himself to be an energy guy, to be one of those guys to come off the bench and give them life. But this is a situation where you lean on your stars in a star driven league and it feels like the stars are being pushed to do the intangible things, the things that are small, the little things that create habits for the playoffs by players who might not be getting the same amount of minutes in those playoff games.
Spencer Davies: Yeah, you can’t come into the game sleepy. And the thing is too for me, it’s disconcerting when you have guys like Jaylon Tyson and Craig Porter Jr. And Naquan Tomlin and even Tyrese Proctor tonight who played a great game. And those guys have the urgency more than the guys who are the ones getting paid. That right there, I think just kind of tells it all. And it’s not even like trying to stir stuff up. Like Jalen even said it in the post game like Don said it. Don said it like we can’t be the only guys to have the energy. We can’t be the only guys who are playing with urgency. And that’s got to change. That’s got to change if they want to go places. The good news is it’s November 30th or December 1st now, now that I’m looking at the clock. But it’s, it is, it’s early. And I know that that’s a terrible thing to keep hearing as a fan. I get it. I know who the Cavs are inside and this isn’t them. This isn’t them. And they haven’t played up to par to this point collectively. And there are definitely areas that they need to address in the first part of that, I think is the core players holding up their end of the bargain. And it’s not fair to say Donovan Mitchell hasn’t done that because I think he’s come in consistently most nights, pretty much every night being the near 30 point per game score he is. He’s had to bail him out a ton of. So I don’t think that you’re looking at that. I don’t know if you’re looking at Darius Garland. Cause Darius is playing with a plate in his toe again. And you know, it’s. It’s tough because he’s trying to get re acclimated at the same time. But as a result of that stuff and even, you know, Evan, before this two game stretch, like just kind of sleepy. Just kind of sleepy is the best way to put it. And teams are jumping on him. Teams are jumping on him right away. And look, man, like the thing I’m seeing is these teams that are faster and running on them are. They’re just running them out the gym. That game in Atlanta on Friday completely, completely gave me a different outlook. I was like, man, they can’t keep up. I don’t know if they’re conditioned right now to the level that Kenny wants him to be conditioned at. And he’s going to protect his players and I get that. But they, they have to be better. They have to be more conditioned. Like, like the Craig Porters, like the Taylon Tysons, like the Naquan Tomlins who’s an Energizer Bunny every time he gets into the game. That needs to go over to the guys that are starting and playing 30 plus minutes a night. That has to happen or else you’re going to put yourself in a world of hurt and then from this. And I’m always a process over results guy, always have been. But when that starts to leak into your process and now you’re starting to create bad habits as a result. Then that’s when you start getting kind of that side eye like, you know, is everything actually okay? So it’s complicated. There are gray issues in this with you. Look at the injury report that we got today with Jared Allen being out another week. And then you had Larry Nance Jr. Go down. He’s out for almost a month with his, his calf. And then, you know, Sam Merrill is still considered day to day. I think they really miss Sam. I think they miss Sam’s off ball in the, in the half court for sure. And they even throw him on full court. Guys picking up full defensively too. So it’s, it’s complicated. But at the same time, when are the excuses going to, going to pile up, you know, like it’s, it’s, it’s getting too close to that time because we’re in early December and I get that. And like I said, there’s a lot of Runway to go here. I don’t want to draw a conclusion about this team as a whole, but 20 games is a good sample size and they’re starting to repeat a lot of the same stuff and you don’t want to see that as the season continues.
Ethan Sands: I think that’s well said, Spencer. And when we talk about this team, I want to talk about someone who didn’t talk tonight. Right. Donovan Mitchell, who as I mentioned earlier is called president by multiple people in the organization because of not only how he plays but how he holds himself more so. Right. He’s always willing to talk. He’s willing to play under the bright lights, but also speak under the bright lights and answer the hard questions and come up with different ideas of what is necessary for this team. Obviously, as you mentioned, process oriented over outcome based. Right. And Donovan Mitchell is in that category as well. But he didn’t talk to us tonight. He didn’t talk after the game. And that speaks volumes to me because to me, Spencer, this game, flashbacks to the Indiana Pacers Game 2 in the Eastern Conference semifinals when you have a situation where Donovan Mitchell feels helpless at that point it was because he couldn’t move his body. Now he’s worked so hard to get his body to be peak form at the quartermark of the season and now you’re talking about, oh well, he’s not going to be in the play. You feel helpless in a different kind of way. And I think this is a different scenario where Donovan Mitchell is starting to have to think about not only contract situations, because we know that his player option comes up in a few years. But we also understand that he, he wants to get past the Eastern Conference semifinals more than anybody else. And he has to question whether or not this team is able to get him there or if he is capable of leading a team there. And I think that is a difficult conversation for someone who is in all NBA first team conversations, in MVP conversations. And then you look around and you’re asking yourself, is this the group of guys? Because Naquan Tomlin, Craig Porter Jr. Might have it. But if Jaylon Tyson is questioning whether Darius Garland or Jared Allen or Evan Mobley has that dog in them, that mentality in them, and we’ve talked about this dating back to the playoffs of last year when Max Struse was like, we weren’t mentally tough enough. And then DeAndre Hunter said it over the summer, we just weren’t mentally tough enough. And this continues to come back to this conversation of who are these guys? What version are you going to get? Evan Mobley after tonight’s game, saying that frustration in the locker room could be a good thing is interesting to me because frustration could be internal. Right? Obviously, we understand where this Cavs team now sits, their seventh in the Eastern Conference. They’re in the play in at 12, 9. And again, as Spencer has mentioned, 21 games of the season is December 1st. But this is not where the Cavs wanted to be, even though they knew coming into the season that it was going to be difficult, that it was going to be stressful, that they were going to be without key players and Max Drews and didn’t know how long Darius Garland was actually going to be out. So I’m curious to you, how much room are you willing to give this team to grow? Because for me, there’s too many blueprints right now to beat the Cavs. You mentioned the Atlanta Hawks, the Toronto Raptors, the Chicago Bulls, the Indiana Pacers, who will run you up and down the gym, getting run out of the gym, then you have teams like the Milwaukee Bucks, the Detroit Pistons, the Boston Celtics who will bully you on the inside and take your money, take your lunch meat, because you aren’t willing to fight back in some scenarios. Jaylon Tyson mentioned that as well. Sometimes you just got to go at it with some teams. To me, it’s if you have two different areas, transition defense is what is tied to the first option, but also rebounding, which is also another big area of discourse for Kenny Atkinson. If you have two things that teams can Key in on. And it doesn’t necessarily matter about personnel because I might have this or I might have this. I think it’s a difficult situation when it comes to the playoffs and preparing for that, even when you have players coming back.
Spencer Davies: Yeah, whenever you have a weakness, that’s a target on your back, and teams will exploit it. Smarter teams will exploit it. And I think a lot of the opponents are figuring out, yeah, we can go get offensive boards. Yeah, we can push the pace on these guys, and they are not going to be able to keep up with us. And that is difficult. That’s a difficult conversation to have, for sure. You just got to go do it. You got to go do it. You have to practice that much harder. You have to bring that into the games, and you just got to go do it. And like I said, like, they just seem like they’re expecting something to get them out of this rut, but they’ve got to do it themselves. That’s the thing about it. The most concerning play of tonight for me, and I don’t think anyone really noticed this one too much, but there was a fast break either. After Steeler after rebound, where Donovan was running to go get a layup, only one Cav ran with him in the open four. And I was like, what is that? What is that? That’s not the energy that you’re looking for from a team that’s supposedly going to be a contender. You’ve got to be going on all fours. You got to go for 48 minutes, and you can’t take those plays off every possession matters, especially in the postseason. And you don’t want to quote, unquote, coast or try to flip a switch, because you’re not guaranteed to be able to flip that switch. So that. That’s the portion that’s bothering me. That play was really telling to me. And then there was a point, I think, where Prichard hit his, like, 18. Three. Like, you know, it felt like he hit 18. And it just seems like they were hanging their heads. And I have not seen them hang their heads like that in a while. It was like, okay, they’re actually feeling something here. But if you want to put my positive spin on it, like I always do, frustration and internal strife can be good, like Evan said, because then you’re forced to have tough conversations. You’re forced to hold each other accountable. You’re to forced. You’re forced to get into someone’s face and tell them, you know, like. And that’s the only way things get fixed. It can’t always just be sunshine or rainbows, man. Professional sports. So, you know, hopefully it can be one of those things where maybe it’s a turning point. You never know. Maybe it’s a turning point. Maybe tonight’s the, the day that the, the, you know, the straw that, that broke the camel’s back, so to speak. So, you know, we don’t know. We can’t press fast forward and get to May. It’s not going to work like that. And no one’s coming to save him. No one’s coming to save them. And there’s, you know, all these injuries and guys getting back get guys getting on the shelf like it’s a long year. You’re going to have to figure it out on your own. And, you know, if, if I was Kenny, I, I would be playing the young guys some more right now until, you know, maybe send a message a little bit, you know, have Tyrese Proctor close out the fourth tonight because he was part of the group that brought him back. Naquan Tomlins closed with the starting five. I know that DeAndre got rolled up on, but Naquan did great. He did great with the starting five. So maybe, you know, he’s all about experimenting and trying different lineups and stuff. Why not try something different next game? Maybe that’s something that gets their attention, you know, because there’s just a little bit too much loafing going on. I see a lot of loafing right now.
Ethan Sands: Spencer, I agree with you. I’ve been a big advocate on this podcast about if a star player isn’t playing to their necessary caliber, you find something else. And Craig Porter Jr. And Tyree Proctor played 11 minutes tonight. While we’re talking about players like DeAndre Hunter and Darius Garland, who had a plus minus of negative 31 and negative 27 respectively. And those are some big numbers from players that you expect a lot better from. Obviously, Darius Garland helped himself a little bit in the fourth quarter by going off, but we’re talking about a team that I feel like is not only lacking identity, as we talked about a lot on this podcast, in itself, but I think they’re also lacking in fundamentals. And I kind of asked a difficult question to Kenny Atkinson today, basically around the fact that I feel like this Cows team has had lackluster performances in fundamentals, free throws, getting back on defense, guarding your yard, right, Isolation defense, when it’s just mano e mano versus Kenny Atkinson and his offensive brilliance. And we understand that he’s one of the best minds in basketball. He created one, one of the best offenses in the NBA’s history last season. So you cannot take that away from him. But the overarching view on advanced stats and all these informations that are trying to help them grow, the offensive tweaks that they’re utilizing, getting to the corner, running to the corner on fast breaks, right? Getting back on defense and getting into your defensive principles, that makes it difficult for them to sometimes know who they’re guarding. Getting back on defense. Evan Mobley talked about that, but then Kenny kind of, hey, guys, don’t run to the corner like I’ve been telling you since the summer, run to the lane to get a layup in transition. Which is it? I think that’s a difficult thing. What these players are trying to do, one, stay on the floor as much as possible and two, try and make an effort to do what their coach asks. And I think if that ask continues to change, it makes it even more difficult. Just to mention about the the free throw shooting. After tonight’s game 21 games of the Cav season, they are ranked 19th in free throw attempts per game and they’re ranked 26th in free throw percentage. That is astronomical when it comes to a team that wants to drive more, wants to be a paint attack first offense and then spray out and create from there. Well, if you’re driving and you’re not making your free throws, you that’s going to change the game as well. And Kenny Aguston talked a little bit about the free throw disparity in tonight’s game between the Boston Celtics and the Cleveland Cavaliers. But my question would then be, would it have mattered because you guys shot 69.2% from the line tonight anyway. So would it have mattered if you would have gotten more to the line, Would you have made those shots? And I think that’s what is continued to be difficult with this team is it feels like they’re thinking too much or too hard and they’re not doing the fundamentals. And sure, that can look different for everybody else or that can look different for each individual team. The 30 teams in the NBA. But hustle, energy, intensity, making free throws, getting back on defense, these are supposed to be the easy parts of the game. Then it gets hard, then you can start branching out. But I think this team, this team is not the 64 win juggernaut machine that they were last year that can kind of rely on the fundamentals to be there. They have to get back down to the basics. To me, Spencer, what do you think?
Spencer Davies: You know, one of my Favorite sayings in sports is control the controllables. And those are the things that you cannot be subpar at in basketball especially. So for me, I think I’m noticing some things happening where, like if they figure out one thing and then something else, you know, goes awry, it’s almost like a golf game, right? Like, you know, you figure out how to putt, but then you forget how to hit a 120 yard shot with your pitching wedge, right? Like it’s just kind of one of those things that they can’t get everything online at the same time. And that has a lot to do with why they don’t play 48 minute games right now. There’s a lot of those stretches. Like, I mean the way that they closed the half was just a dreadful, dreadful way to close the half because they were playing really well. They were playing really well in the second quarter and you know, ever since, you know, Boston got off to that strong start, they hit back, they came back, started to look like themselves again and then they went on what a 3 minute, 27 second drought going into the locker room and then you come out dead legged in the third quarter. You can’t do that, can’t do that. And I think that energy is controllable, right? Making your free throws is absolutely something you can control. Those are paramount, paramount to success. So it’s not easy when you’re not doing the basics. You have to kind of simplify things a little bit right now. Get back to your principles and do that stuff with the transition, stuff the spring to the middle or going to the corner. I think that that’s innately a sense in basketball. Like you have to read the situation better. That’s all it is. Like you have to know whether or not someone’s going to go to the corner, if they’re going to stay in the middle of the lane, run the lane with you. That just kind of happens. And you know, to be kind of frank, like the game is so fast now and you know, we talk about defense and ISO and stuff like that. Like a lot of defense isn’t set anymore and that’s why they’re getting crushed. Because it’s transition, it’s all fast break defense. And if you’re not up to par, conditioning wise as a whole, then it’s tough because someone gets beat, someone else has to cover and then when that happens, someone else is open and then it just creates this awful domino effect to where you’re stuck in rotation, you’re over closing, you’re being way Too aggressive. You’re biting on pump fakes like crazy and committing fouls. Right. So it’s just a whole domino effect that happens. If one person doesn’t do their job, then it’s going to make someone next to them not look so good. So those are part of the conversations we were having earlier that the difficult conversations that people have to have. And it also is on the coaching staff too, to find ways to make sure that no one could get matchup hunted and make sure that you have the right assignments and stuff like that too. Because I know DG gets a lot of flack, but like I said, he’s been trying to re acclimate with this toe injury and, and he’s uncomfortable and all that stuff right now and he has to get used to that. You have to get used to being uncomfortable because it’s not going to change. But you have to be able to. To guard. You have to be able to guard. And he’s put in a fortunate situation where Peyton Pritchard just completely roasted him tonight, to be quite honest. So it’s, it’s tough. It’s a tough conversation to have, but you have to buck up and be about it. That’s all. That’s all I see. At least so. But fundamentally, I mean, I don’t think they’ve been God awful at everything, but there are certain areas where they need to clean up and you know, rebounding is definitely one of them. And going back to the conversation about being a fast game, a lot of these are long rebounds. You gotta chase them, you gotta chase them down. The guards gotta do their job and you know, thirdly, and finally they gotta stop turning the ball over. Like Donovan and Darius have been turning the ball over a lot this past week and they’ve been some ugly ones. They haven’t been exactly aggressive turnover. So just gotta get on the same page.
Ethan Sands: Spencer, this is when we start having difficult conversations. Yes, it’s December 1st, but I do not want to mince words when it comes to this. And I think we as journalists, as people who are around this team every day, need to hold this team accountable as much as they have to hold themselves accountable. So Jaylon Tyson said on multiple occasions tonight that the team has felt like it’s in cruise control at different points throughout games. Let me say this as nicely as possible. The Cavs have not proven anything to be able to feel like they are capable of being in cruise control at any point in any contest. When you look at their stats throughout the league, right. The Cavs rank 21st in field goal percentage. They are the number one three point attempting team in the league. They rank 20th in three point percentage. These are just small things, right? And we already talked about the field goal percentage. So if you aren’t winning by making shots, and Kenny Atkinson has mentioned this multiple times after the games, you can win games. If you’re not making shots, some nice, you just are missing. That’s been more often than not this season. And the Cavs aren’t doing the little things to be able to win these games, which is what is important if you aren’t going to be the juggernaut that you were last year. We know last year they were one of the best field goal percenting shooting teams. They were one of the best three point shooting teams. This is not the 64. One team from last year. So that means how the Cavs keep continuously trying to be like last year is last year. This is not the same team. This is not the same work. This is not all these things. You have to act like that on the floor. And I don’t think this Cavs team has played to that caliber or that standard or even to this point making the habits that they’ve been talking about playoff caliber on a nightly basis.
Spencer Davies: Well, that goes back to my earlier point about urgency. Right. I think a lot of this is shot selection. Some of these pull ups. I know he didn’t play tonight, but Lonzo’s shot selection hasn’t been great. You know, like that’s the, that’s the first thing I think about when it comes to those three pointers. You, you have to set up your teammates in a way. Like when they get the ball in rotation and they’re, they’re swinging it around right, like we saw in that Pacers game last week, last Friday. Darius is getting into the paint, spraying out to the corner. Hunter’s swinging it over to Dean, Wade, Dean’s swinging it over to somebody else. That’s when the Cavs are at their best and that’s when you do want them to take those threes. Because I think that they do that better than anybody in the league. Like, like that particular corner to swing, to swing, to swing. I think no one else does it better. They haven’t done that quite as much this year. And you know, a lot of it is because DG hasn’t been playing. But at the same time they have an identity to where when they do start making those threes, then they start attacking off of closeouts. But since they’re not making those threes that means less of the closeouts are. Are happening as strongly. So teams are staying in front, and then they can’t get advantages to get into the paint. The guys that they get in the paint are Darius Garland and Donovan Mitchell. That’s who does it. You know, Evan, now that he’s made a couple threes here the last few games, maybe teams are going to start closing on him harder because he’s at his best when he’s moving and in rotation and driving off of those closeouts. And I think that’s going to open up an element of their offense for sure.
Ethan Sands: But.
Spencer Davies: But even Dre. Dre. I want to. I want to see Dre get more to that dribble pull up in the midi. Like, I think that’s one of his best weapons, and I like him shooting threes, don’t get me wrong. But I do want to see him getting more attack oriented. You know, I’m going back a couple games again, but in Atlanta, like, the way he started the game was terrific, but it just kind of faded through that game in the fourth quarter, I don’t think. How many shots did DeAndre taken? The fourth, you know, like. So that. That’s something you have to look at. I. I think a lot of these guys are probably pressing a little bit and trying to. To win it on their own, maybe because things aren’t going so well. So, you know, you get into that ISO heavy mode, and that’s what DG does sometimes, you know, after he does get his teammates involved. But sometimes DG will get a little, you know, pound, pound, pound. You know, they have this conversation like, 10, 11 years ago when, When Kyrie Irving was here, we had the same conversation. We, the Cavs would be struggling in the regular season. Why is Kyrie pounding the life out of the basketball when you have LeBron James on your team, you know, like, so I think they got to get less ISO heavy. They got to get better shots. And when you get better shots, the ball’s going to go in. The ball is eventually going to go in. And I think, again, Sam Merrill makes a big difference in that, too. Sam makes a big difference in that. And I think, you know, this is. This is where I pump the brakes a little, is like when Max gets back. I think he’s one of their best connectors. I think that’s going to be huge, too. But, you know, Jalen’s holding up his own end of the bargain, so I think he’s kind of earned the right to talk about that in the locker room. And I think the guys understand that too. I think Donovan gives him free grace to say that. I think DG is one of his closest teammates. And, you know, I think again, having difficult conversations can lead to better things in the future. So, you know, maybe that’s just their way of showing tough love. And, you know, maybe. Maybe Kenny needs to come down on a little bit more because he’s, he’s quite frank at the end of games. Like, even games he wins, he’s like, yeah, that wasn’t great, you know, and stuff like that. But he’s got to hold him to the fire a little bit more, I think. And, you know, he can. We’ve heard from the players and stuff in the locker room sometimes. Like the one, my favorite was last season when Kenny threw a water bottle in the locker room and then they made the adjustment, right? Like, so Kenny can do that stuff. But yeah, it’s, it’s not, it’s not pretty right now. And I think that’s tough to grasp when you had so much success last year. You kind of set yourself up for failure when you had 15 game winning streak to start the season last year and you had all those winning streaks in the regular season. But it’s been different. It’s been different. They’re. They’re fighting through the mud right now, and that’s not easy to get out of, but I’ve, I’ve got faith that they’ll get out. I know that a lot of people, you know, kind of throwing the door on them, but I just know who they are. I know who they are, and I think, I think it’s in them. I know it’s in them, actually.
Ethan Sands: So here’s what I’m gonna say to that. Spencer. I was one of the first people on this podcast to admit that I think that this roster, when fully healthy, is one of the best rosters that they ever have constructed. And I don’t think I’m far off on that. But now we’re getting to this injury conversation, right? And at this point in the season, they’re not making excuses, but they’re not not making excuses, right? This is a team that keeps pointing their finger at like, hey, Sam Merrill’s not here. Jared Elno’s not here. Max Strus isn’t here, which is all true, which is all valid. Jayson Tatum wasn’t out there tonight. Derrick White wasn’t out there tonight. Boston didn’t make no excuses. You know who didn’t have a good game tonight? Jaylen Brown still finished with a triple double because his shot wasn’t going in. So he found other ways to impact the game. And I think that is the difference between the teams that we’re talking about that are true championship contenders and teams that have aspirations of getting there. Right? And to me, when we talk about these injuries, excuses can only go so far. But to me it’s more like the Cavs are waiting for the injury returns to save them and be like, hey, these guys are back. Now we’re going to immediately be the same team that we were. And I don’t think that is necessarily going to be the case. I think the re acclimation period is going to be difficult for this team. Potentially. They could never be healthy this year, right? And to me they haven’t proven one because of the last two postseasons where they haven’t been healthy. Especially in a season where you haven’t been healthy all year. Why would that change in the playoffs? Why would that be different in the playoffs? And I think when you re acclimate some of these guys, you’re absolutely right. Sam Merrill’s cutting, Max Schruss is cutting, Max Strus is spacing. All of these other things, the two man game, that chemistry that he has with Jared Allen is going to be evident. But what does it look like if DeAndre Hunter gets benched because Max Truce is back and he fits better alongside the core four? What does that conversation do for Kenny Akinson, who went to California, talked to DeAndre Hunter and was like, what do you want to do? DeAndre Hunter said start. So he’s starting. But there’s also these conversations that Kenny Atkinson keep having with us, the media, hey, I want to keep seeing what DeAndre looks like in the second unit. I want to keep seeing what he looks like as the primary creator, as the primary scorer with the ball in his hand, which is what we know DeAndre to be best at when he doesn’t have to worry about anybody else on the floor but going to get in the bucket. That’s when you see that midi pull up that we were talking about, the dribble handoffs, all these other things. But I just think the re acclimation period is not going to be as smooth as some people may think. One because you don’t know what’s going to happen in the locker room. And I do think that this COWS team has a good chemistry camaraderie bond. So it should be easier than most, but some feathers will be ruffled. But I also think the other portion of this is going back to My original point, you don’t know who’s going to be back and when and if everybody’s going to be back at the same time. And then Kenny Jakis is playing this game of what we’ve been talking about with the identity is they don’t have one because it’s based on who they have available each and every night. And I think that’s difficult on the players, but I also think it’s difficult on Kenny to give him some grace because you got to keep changing things. And it’s not like the Houston Rockets, who, even though Fred Van Vliet isn’t playing, you can still have the physicality identity. With Alpha and Shangun and Steven Adams and all of them that they have over there. The Cows are still searching for the identity because they have been dealing with so many injuries. But what does that look like and what does the identity become if you’ve made so many tweaks without having any stability behind it?
Spencer Davies: Well, you need to work with what you got, okay? And I think that’s where guys like Craig, guys like Naquan, guys like Jalen, who are getting these big minutes, Tyrese, that’s important for them because of what’s happening in the long run, but also because right now those are your. Your most reliable players, I guess you could say, on the floor, which again, is disconcerting. As we were talking about earlier, going to the re acclimation process and changing starting lineups and the rotations and all that stuff, the ultimate portion of this game is sacrifice and really, really good players who could get their shots off and be really, really good in isolations and, you know, really show their games off. A lot of those guys get changed because they’re only one basketball go around. There’s literally only one basketball to go around. So unfortunately, a lot of the guys, a lot of the times you see on these championship teams, like, you know, it’s the famous Chris Bosch conversation, it’s the Kevin Love conversation that we’ve had here before over and over again. A guy who could literally go out and get 30 and 20 on any night. But now you’re going to go in this corner. You’re going to go in this corner because that’s, you know, that’s where you’re going to be spotting up. DeAndre’s talked about the freedom he’s played this with this year, and that’s something that he didn’t really have too much of in Atlanta last year. That’s possibly going to change. You know, who knows? You know, depends on flow of the game, it depends on who’s got the hot hand. All that stuff like. And I feel like they’ve got to recognize that. But definitely take sacrifice because there’s a lot of talented players in the NBA. That’s why Jaylon Tyson is thriving. For example, we’ve talked about how Jalen was the guy at Cal and had the high usage use, ball handling use, playmaking use, scoring use. And that adjustment for him, his rookie year was real tough. This year he’s bought into it and look, he’s getting results. And Kenny’s talking about him being a $60 million player. Right? So that, I think is a shining example of how basketball works in the NBA is you got a lot of guys who can do a lot of things. But are you willing, are you willing to sacrifice for the greater good of the team or for the team itself? I don’t know if it’s the greater good because, because we don’t see it yet. But if, if you sacrifice and do what your, your coaches ask of you, then you get rewarded for it in the end. So, yeah, no, there, there, there’s going to be tough conversations because, shoot, you know, when Streuss gets back and you have DeAndre in the air and you have, you know, Jaylon Tyson’s minutes go down, right? Does Naquan even play? Like it’s. Those are tough conversations to have, but they’ve got to be had. They’ve got to be had. And that’s interesting to look, look ahead to because, you know, you don’t really think about that because there’s so many guys out and you’re used to playing a certain way and used to seeing certain players in the rotation. But that will, that will change after the new year. That will definitely change.
Ethan Sands: And I think that’s something that Kenny Atkinson continues to have to ask himself and trying to mitigate what he’s dealing with at present hand, but also realizing what is coming down the pipeline, what should be coming down the pipeline. And Spencer, I don’t want to look too far into the future, but, but we do have expectations for this team, right? And we understand that there is a timeline, there is a window for every team in the NBA. And this is one of those seasons where Donovan is going to see what he has with a roster that they constructed that feels like it can go. And Jaylon Tyson also said this after today’s game. They have one of the best starting lineups in the league, one of the best rosters in the league, one of the best teams in the league. But talent doesn’t win championships and we know that if the Cavs do not get out of the Eastern Conference semifinals baseline, if they don’t get out of the Eastern Conference finals. But the goal for them is to reach the NBA Finals, contend with the best of the East. It’s a wide open conference. They want to see what they can do against Western Conference opponents in the postseason. They have to get there. They have to be able to compete with teams in the East. I came out blazing with my preseason take, saying that I thought that they were going to get there because of what their roster looked like. Now I’m not so sure. Now I’m thinking about what it would look like for both sides if Detroit Pistons basketball JB Bickerstaff matched up against Kenny Atkinson and the Cavs. And two different dynamics. You talked about it, the idea of a happy go lucky free flowing offense with, with Kenny Akinson who can sometimes bang the gavel and be like reset. And then you have JV Biggerstaff who is structured, had had everything set to a tee on every given day when he was here. Now he’s got a team that’s bought into his style of play, his physicality, his mindset, his routine oriented everything. But has he grown as an offensive conductor? When it comes to ATOs and playoff scenarios and schemes and all these different things, to me that is the best head to head that could possibly happen in the playoffs. When it comes to these two teams, when it comes to the different philosophies, when it comes to two different coaching styles, when it comes to how the NBA is taking shape as a league that we know, what would you say about where this chaos team is going for the playoffs? Obviously it’s early, but we’ll come back to this prediction in a couple of months. And also what you think about that potential matchup between Detroit and Cleveland, I’m steadfast.
Spencer Davies: I think you’re still going to get to the Eastern Conference finals at a minimum with your matchup. That brings a smile to my face because I want to see that now that you bring it up. I do, I really do. I think it would bring back a little bit of shades of the Orlando Magic series a couple years ago, except Detroit’s got an offense. Detroit’s got a real offense and they’re, they’re, they’re tough. They’re a real tough team. I like them a lot. They’re having some great success. Really. I know they’ve, they’ve dropped the last couple and the sky’s falling for them in Detroit. I see the conversations and stuff. You know, how NBA Twitter goes, but it’s something I definitely want to see because. Because I want to see how JB reacts. You know, there’s no love lost with. With how that went down and, you know, going to the. To the team’s rival in the same division not so soon after. After, you know, getting dropped, that. That’d be tremendous entertainment and, you know, equally, too. I bet you the players, you know, would want to show him, you know, hey, we’re capable more than what we were doing here before with you. So, like, that’s the healthy competition. I would love to see that. I will say this. We were in Detroit. The Cavs absolutely smacked the Pistons in Motown. And that was one of their. At the time, you know, one of their four losses. So, like, it’s interesting. It’s interesting. I don’t know, because the Cavs, when they’re clicking offensively, I don’t know how many teams can stop them. Maybe, you know, okc, obviously, but, like, it’s. It’s tough. It’s tough when the Cavs are doing their 20, 24 selves and they’ve got the Cavalanches rolling and all that stuff. But that is a matchup. I would want to see for sure that. That would be very fun. Um, Man, I mean, I could talk up and down about the Pistons. Jalen Duran’s the one that stands out to me, man. He is. He is a man. That guy’s got some broad shoulders.
Ethan Sands: He’s.
Spencer Davies: He gives me some Dwight Howard vibes, for sure. You know, I love, obviously, what Cade Cunningham does as an offensive engine. Caris on that roster. So we’d be able to see Vert, I guess, his whole team in the playoffs. So, yeah. Yeah, sign me up for that one.
Ethan Sands: Obviously, just the defensive physicality that the Pistons play with and the offensive focal points that the Cavs have or would have if they’re fully healthy. I think that’s the kind of biggest clash you can think of. And.
Spencer Davies: And athleticism.
Ethan Sands: Athleticism, of course. So that’s kind of the Detroit Pistons team. Remember, I said there was two blueprints to being in the Cavs right now. Getting out in transition and also playing physical. Right. The Pistons have a little bit of both those things. And to your point, yes, the Cavs did put the smackdown on the Pistons when they were in Detroit, but that was the best win that the Cavs have had all season. They haven’t done, like, that team since then.
Spencer Davies: Nope. Nope. They sure haven’t that. I mean, that was. That was 48 minutes of ball. That was 48 minutes of Cavs basketball. I still think it’s true. The Cavs are tied for the most games to this point in the season. So, you know, maybe that comes around. I know we have what they have, another five and seven, something like that, another homestand coming up after tomorrow when they’re on the road. So they’ll be home. And I think it’s what the spurs and the warriors, the Blazers, so they got some west coast teams coming in. Those are going to be some fast teams. There going to be some fast teams. So you better buckle in. That’s not going to be easy. And you’re in Indiana tomorrow night and you know that’s their identity. So you got to pick yourself up by the bootstraps, so to speak, Right? So got to figure it out.
Ethan Sands: Couldn’t agree more. I definitely think this Cavs team has the talent to do it. My question is, do they have the mental fortitude to do it? Do they have it inside of them to hold themselves accountable? Because again, I’m going to end it on what Jalen Tyson said. He said, we keep talking about it, we keep talking about it, but we don’t execute. I’m waiting on that execution. It seems like I’m not the only one and not even the only one in the Cavs organization who’s thinking the same thing. But Spencer, thank you for joining me on today’s episode. That was fantastic and I cannot wait to have you on again. Maybe we’ll recap with this conversation when the Cavs play the Pistons in the Eastern Conference second round. Let’s put our bids down, but tell the folks where they can find you and get at your content.
Spencer Davies: Yeah, I don’t want to take up like an hour, but I’ll say this, I’ll say this. My Cav stuff is over at Clutch Points. Written stuff. Cavs roundtable is Courtside with Cavs SI podcast. You can go over to RG.org for my features. I’ll have one coming up here on Clippers with Nick Batum. Really enjoyed writing that one. Can’t wait for that to come out. I’m the one that gets excited about writing about Nick Btoom that. That is me in a nutshell, people. So that I also have a podcast over with Tyler Neal at run the show called Hoop Industry. We’re gonna have some really good guests on this week, so make sure to tap into that and yeah, do some stuff for for Babcock hoops.com do an NBA draft content over there. So that’s my life.
Ethan Sands: And with all that being said, that’ll wrap up today’s episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. But remember to become a Cavs insider and interact with Chris, me and Jimmy by subscribing to Celltex. Yes, we’re going to hit you with the hey Chris episode later this week. Send in your questions, send in your name and city, and you can get a shout out on the pod. But the only way to do so signing up for a 14 day free trial or visiting cleveland.comkaz and clicking on the blue bar at the top of the page. If you don’t like it, that’s fine. All you have to do is text the word stop. It’s easy, but we can tell you that the people who sign up stick around because this is the best way to get insider coverage on the Cavs from me, Chris and Jimmy. This isn’t just our podcast, it’s your podcast. And the only way to have your voice heard is through subtext. Y’ all be safe. We out.