CLEVELAND, Ohio — In this episode of the Wine and Gold Talk Podcast, Ethan Sands and Chris Fedor break down the Cavs’ 135-119 win in Indiana. It was the kind of win Cleveland needed. But it wasn’t the kind of win that fixes everything — and the guys explain why.
Takeaways:
Donovan Mitchell’s Leadership Was Crucial in Ending the Losing Streak
Following a frustrating loss to the Celtics, Donovan Mitchell addressed his teammates, urging them not to waste the opportunity they have. In the subsequent game against the Pacers, he backed up his words with a dominant 43-point performance. Kenny Atkinson even texted Mitchell before the game, telling him, “You gotta go for 40 tonight,” acknowledging the team’s need for a leader to step up. Mitchell not only scored but also set the tone with hustle plays, like diving over the scorer’s table for a loose ball. The speakers emphasized that Mitchell’s leadership is an “underrated superpower” and was essential in setting the standard and breaking the team’s three-game losing streak.
Jaylon Tyson Backed Up His Critical Comments with a Standout Performance
After publicly voicing the team’s internal frustrations with their standard of play, second-year player Jaylon Tyson delivered on the court. He followed up his “grown man conversation” with a “grown man game,” scoring 27 points on 10-of-13 shooting with 11 rebounds. The speakers noted that Tyson’s strong play throughout the season has earned him the confidence and credibility to speak out. His performance was not just about scoring; he brought the energy, toughness, and defensive intensity he had called for. As the team’s most prolific three-point shooter so far, his ability to contribute as a “3-and-D” player is making it increasingly difficult for the coaching staff to reduce his minutes.
The Win Against Indiana Was a “Standard-Setting” Game, Not a Solution
While the 135-119 victory against the Pacers snapped a losing streak, both the players and the hosts viewed it as a necessary course correction rather than a major celebration. Donovan Mitchell stated that the win “didn’t solve anything tonight.” The Pacers were severely undermanned, missing key players like Tyrese Halliburton and starting a G-League-level center. The key takeaway was that this is how the Cavaliers should perform against lesser opponents. For a team with championship aspirations and the NBA’s most expensive roster, the near 48 minutes of dominance was about meeting their own standards and establishing the right habits, something they had failed to do consistently in the first 20 games of the season.
Evan Mobley’s Inconsistency Continues to Be a Concern
Evan Mobley showcased his potential in the first quarter, scoring 8 points and effectively attacking from the mid-range. However, his production dropped significantly for the rest of the game, finishing with just 13 points. The primary reason for this was foul trouble, which seemed to make him less aggressive, a major issue on a night when the Cavs were already thin on big men. The speakers highlighted that Mobley’s performance embodies the team’s biggest issue through the first quarter of the season: a lack of consistency. How Mobley plays on offense is often a direct reflection of how the Cavaliers are performing as a whole.
Future Rotations Pose a Challenge for Atkinson
The strong performances of young players like Jaylon Tyson and Craig Porter Jr. have created a “tricky” situation for the coaching staff as the team gets healthier. While these players have earned roles, established veterans like Max Strus, Larry Nance Jr., and Lonzo Ball will be re-integrated into the lineup. The speakers predict that playing time for players outside the main 7-8 man rotation will become sporadic and matchup-dependent. Craig Porter Jr.’s path to consistent minutes is particularly complicated due to the depth at point guard with Darius Garland and Donovan Mitchell. Ultimately, the coaching staff will have to balance rewarding performance with the reality of a deep and talented roster.
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Transcript
NOTE: This transcript was generated by artificial intelligence and could contain misspellings and errors.
Ethan Sands: What up Cavs Nation! I’m your host, Ethan Sands and I’m back with another episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. Joining me Today, Chris Fedor, cleveland.com Cavs beat reporter and we’re coming to you guys after the Cavs latest win. I know you guys have been waiting a couple of games to hear that. 135, 119 over the Indiana Pacers. It snapped a three game losing streak for the Cleveland Cavaliers. But again, this was not necessarily about the outcome of the game, but the process that the Cavs had to go to to get here after their last game against the Boston Celtics where Jaylon Tyson had some choice words about this team and the frustration that was building internally. It was about how this Cavs team was going to respond against an Indiana Pacers team that isn’t good this year without Tyrese Halliburton and multiple other injuries, but also the same team that knocked him out of the Eastern Conference semifinals and a team with a style of play that makes things difficult on Cleveland. Chris, in Indiana, what did you take away from tonight’s game and and the situation that has been unfolding behind the scenes for the Cleveland Cavaliers?
Chris Fedor: Well, I think the first thing, Ethan, is the comments that Jaylon made last night following the Boston game. That was the feeling inside the locker room and Donovan Mitchell spoke to the group following the game against the Celtics and just said, hey, if we want to be great, this isn’t it. This isn’t the way to do it. We’re 20 games in. What are we doing? What are we doing? Are we wasting this opportunity? So I think part of why Jaylon felt emboldened to say some of the things that he did is because those were the same things that Donovan Mitchell was relaying to his teammates in the locker room and those were the same things that the guys inside the locker room were all feeling. There was a sense of frustration. There was a sense of were not playing to our standard. There was a sense of being disappointed about not building the proper habits 20 games into the season. And yeah, it’s a long season, no doubt about it. But we’ve talked about this a number of different times, Ethan. There’s a standard that the Cavs have set that they want to play to and for a majority of of this season they haven’t played to that. Which brings us to tonight against Indiana. And I think the important thing is, and Donovan Mitchell said this following the game, beating Indiana the way that the Cavs did tonight, it doesn’t solve anything. It doesn’t Fix all the Cavs problems. It doesn’t mean that they’re going to play grab ass and they’re going to start patting each other on the back and they’re going to start taking victory laps or anything along those lines. However, there have been times throughout the course of this season where, against a lesser opponent like Indiana. Indiana is one of the worst teams in the NBA. They are unrecognizable compared to the team that bounced the Cavs out of the playoffs last year. No Tyrese Halliburton? No Obi Toppin? No Aaron Neesmith. TJ McConnell was exhausted tonight. Old, tired legs. Only played like six minutes in the game because Rick Carlisle felt like he couldn’t get anything more out of him during this stretch of of grueling portion of the Indiana schedule. Jay Huff, somebody named Jay Huff is starting at center for the Pacers. Miles Turner is in Milwaukee. So I think everybody understands what this version of the Pacers is, and Donovan Mitchell understands what this version of the Pacers is. So there is no need to victory lap and go overboard based on one quality win against a lesser opponent. However, I think the big thing here, Ethan, is that’s what it’s supposed to look like against those teams. If the Cavs consider themselves championship contenders, if they have the most expensive roster in the NBA and they’re setting records for how much they’re spending on this freaking roster, at some point, it should look like that. It should look like near 48 minutes of dominance against lesser opponents. And there have been times in the first quarter of this season where they’ve played against lesser opponents and it hasn’t looked like that. Boston, by the way, it didn’t look like that. So I think that’s the big takeaway, is that it was an undermanned, overmatched team and the Cavs did what they were supposed to do. It wasn’t a tense game. They led for nearly 47 minutes. There was one lead change, one tie. They took their first lead of the game about midway through the first quarter and they never gave it back. The closest that Indiana got was six in the second half toward the end of the third quarter. Like that’s what it’s supposed to look like. That’s how the Cavs are supposed to play against that caliber of opponent. And the other thing is, there was a level of focus, there was a level of intensity. There was a level of purpose and commitment from the very beginning of the game.
Ethan Sands: Chris, I agree, and obviously when you have that kind of big talk from a second year player like Jaylon Tyson, you also have to have the game to back it up. He did more than that in tonight’s ball game. He was the second highest scorer of the game for the Cavaliers following Donovan Mitchell, who has been phenomenal through the first quarter of the season. He had 43 points on 16 of 27 shooting, 4 of 10 from deep and nine rebounds. That’s Donovan Mitchell for you. Jaylon Tyson was his running mate tonight. 27 points on extremely good efficiency, 10 of 13 from the field, 4 of 5 from deep, 11 rebounds, 4 assists and 1 steal. Jaylon Tyson is a player that we knew was going to be important to this Cavs team coming into this season, Chris, but we didn’t know how much and at different parts of this season already we’ve named him the villain of this team. Now we’re name him a part contributor to when it comes to facilitating what this Cavs organization is thinking. And of course Evan Mobley had some choice words as well after the Boston Celtics game, but Jaylon Tyson didn’t mince any words. He didn’t say it quietly. He said it with his chest. He had a grown man conversation and then he had a grown man game to back it up against the Indiana Pacers in a series where he didn’t really play last year when he was a rookie. So I do think that Jaylon Tyson needs more credit for what he’s been able to do this season. Jumping into the starting role when DeAndre Hunter has been injured, when Sam Merrow has been injured. Tonight was the 12th game that the Cavs have gone with a different starting lineup and Jaylon Tyson has been a fixture of those changes when he has been available as well. And Chris, there’s more to this conversation, but I just want to get your initial perspective about Jaylon Tyson and tonight’s game but having those conversations as a second year player and maybe it shouldn’t have been him but he felt called on his heart to make it that and I think he did a good job doing it.
Chris Fedor: Yeah, for sure. I mean I think he’s a very passionate guy. He’s very energetic. He’s a no nonsense guy. He says what’s on his mind and I give him a lot of credit for that. And I think the way that he has played throughout the course of this season, Ethan has given him a different level of confidence and yes it’s showing on the court, but it’s also showing behind the scenes as well to have the confidence to step forward and say the things that he did Following Sunday’s game, if he was toward the end of the bench, if he was shooting 30% from three point range, if he wasn’t doing all the role player type things that he was doing, he probably doesn’t have the confidence to say those things. He probably just goes into the background and he’s comfortable going into the background, but I think he’s stepping into his own and I think that’s a really, really good sign for a young player. And my takeaway was the same one that you had. And I asked Kenny Atkinson about it and I asked Donovan Mitchell about it. Just to have Jaylon be confident enough to save those things, harsh, critical, some may say over the top, given that it’s just 20 games into the season. But to have him say those things and then back it up the way that he did. He was one of their best players tonight. He has been one of their most impactful players in the first quarter of the season. So it’s one thing to just say it, but to say it and then deliver on it and bring the energy, bring the toughness, bring the tenacity, bring the defensive intensity, get 11 rebounds, a couple of those on the offensive end of the floor. That’s all the stuff that he was talking about following the Celtics game. That’s all the stuff that he’s been bringing to this team. And it’s one thing to bring that stuff, right? But for him to shoot the ball the way that he has, he has been their most prolific three point shooter through the first quarter of this season. So if, if he’s not making those shots, if he’s not shooting that percentage, the stuff that he does on a night to night basis, you don’t feel it as much, right? Isaac Okoro did that stuff that I’m talking about for the Cavs, right. But also shot 36% from three point range and defenses completely ignored him. So Jaylon’s doing that stuff, stuff that stuff that he needs to do as a quintessential three and D player. And he’s knocking down the, he’s doing the three part of that. And, and that I think is the thing that has separated him and made him such a consistent impact player for the Cavs. And it’s going to be really, really difficult for Kenny Atkinson to justify lowering his minutes. It’s going to be really, really difficult for Kenny Atkinson to eventually justify pushing him further down the depth chart because they need the things that he brings to the table and I think they needed somebody to say what he said following Sunday’s game against the Celtics.
Ethan Sands: Chris, I want to put a pin in that cause I have a couple of thoughts when it comes to the dynamic of the role. When it comes to Jaylon Tyson, we’ll come back to that. Craig Porter Jr. Is also going to be in that conversation just to give you a little bit of a heads up. But I want to go back to the Donovan Mitchell thing really quickly. Donovan Mitchell was not made available to the media after the Boston Celtics game. Whether or not that was because they had to catch a flight, whether or not that was because he was still getting out of the shower, different things, he was not available to the media. We don’t know what he was thinking. It’s important to note that he is a great leader first and foremost. Right? We’ve written about it countless occasions. He is arguably one of the best Eastern Conference guards, but he’s also one of the best leaders in the overall NBA and I think that’s important for this CAVS team and one for him to go and have another 40 ball two again put above 30 points. To be in the MVP conversation is one thing. But to me, Chris, what stood out 1. He didn’t have to be out there with five minutes left in the Cavs up by 19 and having 41 points at this point. Like he could have been on the bench like Shai Gilders Alexander does in the fourth quarter for a lot of different games because the Oklahoma City Thunder are up by that much. Well, Donovan was out there. It felt like he was making a statement like we don’t want to take our foot off the gas. We don’t want to give them any room to breathe. This is the standard. The other portion of this, Chris, is that Kenny Atkinson had or felt the need to text Donovan Mitchell, hey, you gotta go get 40 tonight. Donovan 1 has been averaging 30 points this season after 22 games and we know that the Cavs have already been over reliant on Donovan Mitchell dating back to the playoffs of last year when we were questioning if 30 shots a game in the playoffs was what this Tavs team needed or good for the health of Donovan Mitchell. What did you think about the text message that was sent from Kenny Atkinson and the understanding of what this Cavs team needed tonight from Donovan to be successful.
Chris Fedor: I think given everything that had happened with the team over the last week and on the heels of the loss against the Celtics that Donovan was going to have this kind of performance anyway. Donovan was going to come in to Indiana with this level of focus, with this level of Determination. And I don’t think Kenny had to send him that text message. But I think it shows the relationship. I think it shows that they’re on the same page. I think it shows that they can have frank, honest conversations. And I think it’s a recognition of what the team needed on this particular night from Donovan they didn’t have. Geez, I’ve lost count at this point in time. Six every night. Rotational players. Lonzo Ball couldn’t play because he has an illness. Darius Garland, he was here in Indiana, but he’s still dealing with the toe injury management. And it was the second game of a back to back and it’s the second part of a five game and second seven night stretch. And everybody knows the circumstances surrounding this game. So on nights like that, on the heels of the Cavs losing their third game in a row, you could sense a different version of Donovan Mitchell. And I think sometimes, you know, Kenny Atkinson can see that as well. But they didn’t have a shoot around earlier today. So I think Kenny just wanted to make it clear to Donovan, hey, like we need you tonight. We need the best version of you tonight. And if that means you go for 40, that means you go for 40. If that means you take 30 shots and some of them are bad ones, then so be it. The load that you’re going to have to carry tonight under these circumstances is a little bit different. And if there’s somebody who is going to have to lead us out of this losing skid and break some of these bad habits and set the tone, you’re the perfect person to do that. You’re the leader of this team and everybody else follows your lead. And I think it was just a recognition from Kenny Atkinson and from Donovan as well about what the Cavs needed. And Kenny even said, you know, when he saw Donovan pregame and he had a more serious look on his face and he wasn’t as jokey and he wasn’t as jovial and he wasn’t as light hearted, I guess you could say. And he wasn’t as optimistic in some of, you know, his feelings. Following the game against the Celtics on Sunday, Kenny could feel it. He said, donovan’s not going to let us lose this one. And Donovan refused to let them lose this one. And it was more than just the 40 ball. I mean, he broke the scorers table, he dove onto the scorers table, nearly broke BJ Evans, the director of PR for the Cavs, nearly broke his laptop, smacked away the radio microphone. But like, that’s Donovan trying to Set a tone. That’s Donovan doing whatever it takes. Sometimes he had to box out Jay Huff. You know, sometimes he had to guard Andrew Nemhard. Sometimes he had to guard Ben Matheran. Sometimes, you know, he had to leave the offense because they only had one other available point guard. Unless you consider Tyrese Proctor a point guard, which probably not, not yet, not at this stage of his career. So it was just, again, I think, a recognition from Donovan of. Of what the Cavs needed, and knowing that that was going to come in multiple forms. Obviously, the big one is the scoring. He obviously has to pick up the scoring load with so much of the starting lineup and so much of the rotation out. But he also did the hustle y things that Jaylon Tyson and Donovan Mitchell were talking about following the game against the Celtics. He also did the toughness things. So when you see your leader doing that, when you see your star player doing those kinds of things, you can’t help but wanting to do that as well. And what did Jaylon Tyson say following the game against the Celtics? What did Kenny Atkinson say pregame? Like, yes, these young guys are giving us energy. Craig Porter Jr. Nae’Qwan Tomlin, Jaylon Tyson, Tyrese Proctor. But her vets have to do it, too, even though they’re more accomplished and. And they might not be as, quote, unquote, hungry to prove themselves the way that some of these other young guys are. We need those kinds of little things coming from our top players. And it felt like Donovan recognized that, and he did that from the very beginning of the game. And I give him a lot of credit. I do think he’s one of the best leaders in the NBA. I think the fact that he has been to the playoffs every single season that he has been in the NBA speaks volumes about how he elevates his teammates, how he empowers his teammates, and it shows the kind of leader that he is. I think it is for all of the things that make Donovan Mitchell so great, I think his underrated superpower is his leadership.
Ethan Sands: And we’ve written about that for the website on multiple different occasions. And I think it’s well documented what we think about Donovan Mitchell and. And for a majority of it, it’s positive. And when you were just talking about Donovan Mitchell and what he has done for this team, it made me think about what he was talking about preseason, about wanting to save his body. And to me, maybe the text from Kenny Atkinson was like, hey, you don’t have to pass the ball. As much as you might think you need to you don’t need to empower as much as you might want to tonight. Tonight is your night. If you want to go get 40, this is the night you go get 40. So, yes, to your point, Chris, if he wanted to go take 30 shots, tonight might have been one of those nights. But he didn’t have to. He took 27. Close enough. But I do think the message was clear. And I don’t know if it was necessary, but as you mentioned, it was there anyway. Okay, you mentioned Lonzo Ball. I want to get back to the conversation about Jaylon Tyson. Lonzo Ball was traded for Isaac Okoro this offseason to kind of mitigate what the Cavs were losing in Ty Jerome and Isaac Okoro, of course, but thus far into the season, he hasn’t necessarily done that. We’ve talked about Ty Jerome’s paint touches, his ability to take over an offense, his scoring load. To me, that sounds more like what Craig Porter Jr. Has done. When we look at Isaac Okuro, we say he’s a point of attack defender. He’s hungry, he’s a dog. He’s willing to dive on the floor, floor, do all these other things. Sure, Lonzo Ball is a great rebounder, is willing to put his body on the line for different things, but he’s more cautious. You know who’s not? Jaylon Tyson, willing to put his body on the floor to go get a loose ball, willing to do all these other things. And I’m not slighting Lonzo Ball, but we’re talking about when this team gets healthy, when this rotation is back to normal or even close to it. I’m trying to see where Kenny Atkinson is going to go four minutes for Craig Porter Jr. And Jayla Tyson, because at this point in the season, I think they’ve earned it and I think they’ve earned the chance to play at least 10, 15 minutes a night. And when it comes to the Boston Celtics game just a night ago where Craig Porter Jr. Didn’t really get time on the floor, even though he was coming back from a hamstring injury that had lingered a little bit, it made sense. But now you come into a game, you tell me that Craig Porter Jr. Is capable of playing as many as 22 and a half minutes, it’s a big, steep difference in that contest. And I think when you talk about What Craig Porter Jr. Has brought, obviously the passing is there, the ball creation is there, the ability to touch the paint and create from the interior is there. I think there’s so many different pieces that Craig brings that not only embody kind of what Ty Jerome was doing, but even a little bit of what Darius Garland does for this team and knowing his role and knowing the spaces where he can create. And then Jaylon Tyson, you mentioned it earlier, Chris. Isaac Okoro s defensively, obviously not to the same level or standard of Isaac Okoro in his second year of his career, but he’s much better as a shooter and just more confident. We don’t see the hitch in Jaylon Tyson’s shot, we don’t see the hesitation in Jaylon Tyson’s shot, all of the things that we saw in Isaac Koro. But it came to confidence. Jaylon Tyson is playing with all of those things. And I think there’s different roles that allow players to step into their own. And although Lonzo Ball is extremely important in the transition offense of this team and him still playing alongside either Craig Porter Jr. Or Darius Garland is very intriguing to me to see how that offense would mix, especially with Lonzo ball being a 6 foot 6 defender and and being a plus defender at that. We have to continue to monitor what Kenny Atkinson is going to do with these rotations and how he’s going to give minutes to these players who have earned it, especially when these players have an out return. Or since Lonzo Ball is going to continue to be on injury management on the first or second half of a back to back, how this Cavs team continues to utilize these players that have carved out a role for themselves thus far in.
Chris Fedor: I mean Ethan, I think the truth is at some point you have to reward the guys that are playing better. And I think there’s plenty of time for for Lonzo to continue to find his place within this team and see how he can best impact this team. But statistically speaking, through the first 21 games, the Cavs have been a better basketball team with Lonzo off the floor than on the floor. Now. Some of those numbers are a little bit noisy. Some of that has to do with him being in and out of the lineup. Some of that has to do with some of the guys that he’s sharing the floor with. Some of that has to do with Kenny tinkering with lineups and combinations. Some of it has to do with Lonzo still getting used to this system, this group of teammates and everything that comes with being a new guy on a team that won 64 games a year ago. Similar to what DeAndre Hunter was dealing with when he came over mid season from Atlanta. He had to find his place. I think Juan Zo to some degree is, is still finding his place. And I think it becomes a little bit tricky, right, because if, if any of these guys are on the outside of the top six, seven in this every night rotation. We’ve talked about this so many times on the podcast. Their role, their workload, the minutes that they’re going to play, they’re just not going to be consistent. And I think that’s just going to be baked into what their role is. And it doesn’t mean that Nae’Qwan Tomlin’s just going to disappear, and it doesn’t mean that Craig Porter Jr. Is just going to disappear. And it doesn’t mean that all these guys that have gotten opportunities in the early portion of the season are just going to disappear. Just means that their playing time is going to be sporadic, that is just not going to be consistent. So when they do get the opportunity, and they’ll eventually get the opportunity again, it’s a long season, there are lots of injuries. There are going to be more rest nights. The Cavs know how grueling this 82 game schedule is, and they’re going to look for opportunities to rest. Certain guys get them nights off. So when these guys get those opportunities, it’s going to be up to them to stay ready and find a way to capitalize on those opportunities, even if it’s not exactly what it has been in the first portion of this season. Because of the guys that have been missing, the Cavs eventually are going to get Larry Nance Jr. Back. They’ve got to find a way to use Larry the proper way, and they’ve got to find a way to get him comfortable before the playoffs roll around. Max Struth eventually is going to come back. He’s got to play, and he’s going to play because he’s really important to the success of this team. Sam Merrill’s hand is eventually going to heal. He’s going to play. He’s going to play high minutes, he’s going to get shots. So all of these things are just the reality of this team. It’s a talented team, it’s a deep team. There are established roles, there are established workloads for many of these guys. Not everybody has that level of an established role, and for the guys that don’t, it’s just going to be part of what they’re going to have to deal with. It might not be what they want in terms of a workload, it might not be what they believe that they’ve earned in terms of a workload, but it becomes A little bit tricky. If Kenny is committed to playing, you know, he’s not going to play 12 every single night. Some nights he might play 12, some nights he might play 11, but he feels it seems most comfortable with right around 10. So that means certain nights, maybe it’s going to be matchup based, maybe it’s going to be situational, maybe it’s going to be dictated by the opponent. Maybe it’s going to be dictated by how the opponent is playing defensively. Maybe it’s going to be dictated by how the opponent is playing offensively. I just think there are a lot of variables that are going to be attached to Jaylon Tyson, Craig Porter Jr. Tyrese Proctor, Nae’Qwan Tomlin, despite how important they’ve all been in the first part of this season for the Cavs, and with Craig specifically, even, it gets complicated because the things that he theoretically does, the position that he plays, that is, that is a very deep position for the Cavs. That is a minute heavy position for the Cavalry. Darius Garland is going to play big minutes and be the starting point guard for this basketball team. Donovan Mitchell is going to play big minutes and he’s going to be the de facto backup point guard. So I think Kenny’s just going to have to find pockets throughout the course of the game, maybe if he feels like it’s warranted to continue to get Craig in there. And Lonzo’s going to get minutes too. Like I said, he’s not just going to disappear from the rotation because he’s not shooting the three ball well or because the numbers say that the Cavs are better with him off the floor than on the floor. So it’s just a little bit tricky in terms of Craig and his role and the numbers game and the number of minutes that are available based on the positions that he can play. And it’s just, I think the reality of the situation that he is in, and it’s unfortunate, but it’s just the way that it’s going to go for him moving forward. As long as he’s going to be basically a one position player, maybe in certain matchups a two position player, but the number of times that he can be a two position player, I think that’s a very, very small amount.
Ethan Sands: And Chris, this is a much larger conversation, so we’re not going to get into it today. But Craig Porter Jr. Is in a contract year, right? We understand after this season he has a club option where the team can decide what they want to do with him. And I’m curious If Craig Porter Jr. Is playing himself out of the club option by playing so well, and the team might want to give him an opportunity to go play somewhere else where he can actually earn standard NBA backup point guard minutes. But that’s a different conversation. Yeah, I want to get into this Lonzo thing just really quickly. Obviously, everybody looks at the shooting splits, everybody looks at the offensive rating of the Cavs when he’s on the floor, and it’s not great to start the season, but his passing does open up so many different things. And I think it also has instilled a little bit of a different belief for this Cavs team when it comes to the overall transition offense. And we got to see that tonight against the Indiana Pacers, right? There was multiple times where guys not named Lonzo Ball were making riskier outlet passes getting the ball up in transition, and it led to easier looks than the Cavs have cotton in those situations over the course of this season thus far. And I think it’s a good thing that Kenny Atkinson kind of already in the season has said these risky passes are okay if they are going to generally lead the to positive outcomes. And that allows other players not named Lonzo Ball as well to take these different risks and understand that with a certain margin of error you understand that these can be beneficial for this team. And we saw Craig Porter Jr. Do it. We saw Nae’Qwan Tomlin do it tonight. We’ve seen Donovan Mitchell credit Lonzo Ball for some of the passes that he’s made because of the freedom that he feels to make those passes that he wouldn’t readily make last year or years before in his career because he knows the detriment and how the NBA looked down on again, one of these unwritten rules, like if you don’t have that kind of pass in your bag and known for it, don’t make the pass. Now it feels like the Cavs are playing with a more free offense and especially with a team that has struggled with transition defense being able to turn the tables on the opposition. I think that would be important for this team going forward.
Chris Fedor: Ethan. I also think it’s important because this version of the Cavs just does not score as easily as last year’s. Last year’s it looks so easy. Even if they were in the half court, they felt like what they did in half court environment was, was better than what a defense could do to them. And, and Draymond Green after the game against the Cavs was even talking about how his head was spinning because of the amount of movement and because of the amount of cutting, because of the amount of actions that the Cavs were getting to in one single possession. And you just don’t have that same thing because you don’t have the same personnel. And I know it’s hard because people see Cavs and they’re like, well, they won 64 games last year and they set records for how they. How they were offensively in. A majority of the team is back, Yes, a majority of the team is, but you can’t copy and paste what happened last year. You just can’t. It’s different. It’s a different season. It’s a different league. It’s a different set of opponents. It’s different in terms of the personnel that they have on this roster. So I think one of the things that they have recognized here in the first part of the season is, you know, their offense is not as dynamic, it’s not as prolific as it was last year. And they have to work harder in the half court for quality looks. Evan Mobley has to work harder to get quality looks. Donovan Mitchell has to work harder. He’s seeing more double teams because of who’s available on a nightly basis to the Cavs. They have to work harder because they don’t have somebody like Ty Jerome, right? They have to work harder because they haven’t had Max Struse, who creates so much chaos for the opposing defense. So all of these different variables have made it so that when the Cavs get in the half court, they tend to bog down. So I think they’re just looking for easier looks. I think they’re trying to find easier offense, and the best way for them to generate that, number one, is get stops on defense and then get out and run. If it’s Evan Mobley, push it. If it’s Donovan Mitchell, push it. If it’s Lonzo, push it. If it’s Nae’Qwan Tomlin, even push it. If It’s Larry Nance Jr. What? He’s healthy, grab the rebound and push it. Whatever the Cavs can do so that they don’t have to function consistently in the half court, I think it would be beneficial to them, and I think they recognize it as well. And there was a clear point of emphasis tonight against Indiana, even on the second game of back to back to run and push it before the Pacers could get set and try and find easier offense. Given who was available to the Cavs tonight.
Ethan Sands: And Chris, I will say the two negatives of my thoughts from tonight’s game, and then we’ll get out of here. One you mentioned it there. The pace of play was skyrocketing in the third quarter and it felt like the Cavs were kind of playing into the hands of the Pacers, who again we know love to play at their own speed. Love to play at a speed that very few teams in the NBA can match. Sure, no Tyrese Halliburton, so it’s a little bit different, but they still got up to like 1:13 in pace when it comes to that third quarter and the Cavs were letting the Pacers back into the game. It kind of went hand in hand. But I think if the Cavs are going to play with their own pace, get into transition as Kenny Atkinson has so often talked about, dating back to the off season training camp in Sarasota, trying to set up different markers for the scoring zone for for them to get open looks, whether that’s three pointers and even after the Boston Celtics game trying to get layups in transition, which they did tonight. I think that is important, but you have to know who you’re going up against and can’t get bogged down or caught up in what the opponent is doing. But my last point for tonight’s game and maybe my biggest critique of tonight’s game, where did Evan Mobley go? He was playing phenomenal in the first quarter. That was the version of Evan Mobley that we all wanted to see. His mid range game finally showed up. He was able to take Pascal Siakam and do whatever he wanted with him. J. Huff looked like a turnstile, but you tell me that he was going into the mid range, he was going into the painted area and he was playing from the free throw line extended that we’ve talked about so many different times, Chris, and especially when his passing game has taken another leap this season, the pockets of attention that he draws are turning into easier looks for his teammates and the Cavs went away from him again. The early stretch of the game in the first quarter was easily his best without Donovan Mitchell this season. And whether or not that was a small sample size doesn’t really matter because that’s exactly the player that the Cavs wanted in need Evan Mobley to be. Evan Mobley in the first quarter, 4 of 6 from the field, 8 points, he was actually 0 of 2 from 3 point land but he was taking them so he was stretching out the defense. But for the rest of the game, remember six attempts in the first quarter alone. For the rest of the game he took seven. He was six of 13 when the game was all said and done. He made two more shots. He had five rebounds and five assists. As I was mentioning with his passing acumen, he finished the game with 13 points. Chris, I just think the Cavs continue to have a difficult time when it comes to Evan Mobley finding out where they’re going to utilize him. Of course, Donovan Mitchell was going supernova. You want to just get in the ball and get out the way. But this is supposed to be process oriented more than outcome based. And of course again, Kenny Atkinson sent the 40 ball text to Donovan Mitchell. So we might not have necessarily been looking for Evan as much, but when you get a guy going like that and you’re trying to see if this is the version that he can be for 48 minutes and he’s showing you flashes of it, I don’t think you can go away from him. And him dealing with the swarms of the Indiana Pacers, finding open shots and finding open players was a great thing and great second option. But they also know that they need, without Darius Garland, without Jared Allen, without so many of these other players, Sam Merrow, Max Stru, they need his scoring to be at a better level. And again, this kind of reiterates the point. Where would the Cavs have been without Jaylon Tyson tonight?
Chris Fedor: Yeah, I mean, I think you make some really good points, but you asked the question, where was Evan Mobley after the first quarter? The short answer is he was in fall trouble. And I think him getting in fall trouble on a night that there was no Jared Allen, on a night that there was no Larry Nance Jr. On a night that the Cavs had to play some minutes with Dean Wade at the 5. I think that impacted the mentality of Evan Mobley. I think it made him a little bit more careful. I think it took some of his aggressiveness away in the first quarter that you’re talking about. He had zero fouls. But then he got himself in foul trouble and he either went to the bench or he became less involved on the offensive end of the floor because I think there’s a natural reaction to the most important big man and maybe one of the only big men that the Cavs had available to them tonight to not push it, to not overdo it, to not be over aggressive, to not put himself in some precarious positions when it comes to falls. So I think the aggressiveness to Evan, I think the lack of what we saw beyond the first quarter was partially tied to that. And I think for him, it’s something that he’s going to have to learn how to play through a little bit better. I think for him it’s going to be something where he needs to understand maybe I’m in fall trouble, but I still have some advantages. I need to try and capitalize on those as best I can. We’ve talked about Evan a lot. We have. And he just has to be Donovan said one of the things that he was most upset about following the Celtics game and part of the reason why he spoke up following the Celtics game is because that was the 20 game mark, that was a quarter of the way through the season and he kind of was taking stock at where the Cavs were as a team and he wasn’t singling anybody out, he was talking about the team. But I thought it was appropriate and I thought it tied into Evan because one of the things that Donovan talked about was just the lack of consistency that the Cavs have shown through the first part of the season. And I don’t think there’s anybody on this roster that embodies that lack of consistency the way that Evan does. And I think if you’re any Cavs fan, if you’re any NBA fan and you want to know how things are generally going for the Cavs, how things are generally going for the Cavs on the offensive end of the floor, watch Evan Mobley and you’ll get an answer. Now again tonight, Jaylon Tyson stepped up and he had one of the best games offensively of his career. And the Cavs needed that second scoring option alongside Donovan because Evan wasn’t that beyond the first quarter. And I think they were fortunate that Jaylon had the game that he did, that Jaylon played with that level of aggressiveness that Jaylon was that efficient on the offensive end of the floor.
Ethan Sands: Yeah, Chris, I agree. I think this Cavs team is fortunate to be where it is. This is now the 22 game mark. They’re 13 and 9. And the Cavs are now heading back to Cleveland on a three game homestand after winning in Indianapolis on Monday night. They face off against the Portland Trailblazers on Wednesday, San Antonio spurs on Friday and the Golden State warriors on Saturday. So it would be a good test against the Western Conference opponents before they have nearly a week off and then play against the Washington wizards on Friday, December 12, which was an added game after they were knocked out of the in season tournament by the Atlanta Hawks on Friday night. So we’re going to take it one game at a time. We’re going to keep watching and monitoring what this COWS team does but we’re 22 games into the season now. Kenny Atkinson asked for 25 games before being fully evaluated and seeing what the identity and where this team is at. But. But that doesn’t mean that we’re going to stop giving you guys the content that you deserve. 22 games in 13:9. This is a Cavs team that still has a lot to prove, still has a lot to showcase, and is still dealing with internal frustration. As Donovan Mitchell mentioned after tonight’s game, this isn’t one to celebrate about. This is just the beginning of who they want to be, a standard that they want to set, and a standard in habits that should translate to the postseason. But they have to take it one game at a time. So with all that being said, that’ll wrap up today’s episode of the Want and Gold Talk podcast. But remember to become a Cavs insider and interact with Chris, me and Jimmy by subscribing to Subtext. This is where you can send in your weekly hey Chris question questions. I’m still deciding on which day that’ll be this week, but send them in and we’ll make sure to get them handled. The only way to do that is signing up for a 14 day free trial or visiting cleveland.com Cavs and clicking on the blue bar at the top of the page. If you don’t like it, that’s fine. All you have to do is text the word stop. It’s easy, but we can tell you that the people who sign up stick around because this is the best way to get insider coverage on the Cavs from me, Chris and Jimmy. This isn’t just our podcast, it’s your podcast. And the only way to have your voice heard is through subtext. Y’ all be safe. We out.