CLEVELAND, Ohio — In this episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast, Ethan Sands and Jimmy Watkins discuss the Cavs’ 14-11 start to the season. The conversation covers how the team is using a five-day break for a “reset” with player-led meetings and tough film sessions.
Takeaways:
1. The Cavs’ Disappointing Start is Attributed to a Lack of Effort and Entitlement
Twenty-five games into the season, the Cavaliers’ 14-11 record is viewed as a major disappointment, with the speakers identifying a pervasive attitude of being “too cool for school.” This mentality has manifested as a lack of effort and an “air of confidence borderline arrogance,” leading to preventable losses, such as a recent defeat against an injury-depleted Warriors team. The speakers note that while the team says the right things in press conferences and meetings, acknowledging the problem of indifference, the issue continues to persist on the court. There is a strong sense of frustration that the team has not put “action to words” and demonstrated the consistent intensity required to dominate lesser opponents, which they are mentally capable of but emotionally unwilling to do.
2. Mental Toughness Remains the “Biggest Red Flag”
The issue of mental toughness, a major talking point after last season’s playoff exit, remains the most significant concern surrounding the team. The podcast highlights that despite players vowing to treat the regular season with more seriousness, they have failed to do so, creating their own “self-generated adversity.” The analysis is stark: the Cavs are currently performing below the level of the team from the previous year. This is particularly alarming because last year’s team, which “lived a charmed existence” in the regular season, was still not mentally equipped for the playoffs, losing to the Pacers in the Eastern Conference semifinals in five games. The immediate goal is no longer about building on last year’s success but simply getting back to that starting point, which was already proven to be insufficient.
3. Evan Mobley’s Development Has Stalled, Forcing a Simpler Offensive Role
In response to a fan’s question about Evan Mobley “turning the corner,” the hosts argue his recent statistical improvement is a result of the team simplifying his role, not a developmental leap. Early-season attempts to expand his game to the 3-point line and as a primary creator were largely unsuccessful. The coaching staff has reverted to “caveman basketball,” feeding him the ball closer to the basket where he is more efficient. While this has him trending back toward his performance from last year, it’s a concern. The consensus is that the Cavs cannot become a true contender with “last year’s version of Evan Mobley,” as that wasn’t enough; they need him to take a significant step forward, which has not yet occurred.
4. The Eastern Conference is Significantly More Competitive Than Anticipated
The preseason expectation that the Cavs could “cakewalk” to the conference finals is no longer a reality. The Eastern Conference has proven to be much tougher, with teams like the Detroit Pistons (physicality), Toronto Raptors (length and pressure) and Orlando Magic among others presenting legitimate challenges that exploit the Cavs’ weaknesses. The improved play of these teams, along with established contenders like New York and Boston, has changed the landscape. The Cavs’ nonchalant approach to the regular season is now creating a higher risk of facing one of these difficult matchups in an earlier playoff round. A poor seed could force them to play a conference finals-caliber opponent in the second round, a scenario they are not yet proven to be ready for.
5. A Shift in Coaching and Player Accountability Offers a Glimmer of Hope
A potential turning point for the team is a recent shift toward greater accountability, sparked by the team’s five-day break. The players held a player-led meeting and endured “uncomfortable” film sessions where Kenny Atkinson reportedly “called them out” for their lack of effort. This is seen as Atkinson returning to his more intense “Brooklyn Nets roots” after adopting a more hands-off, “Zen” approach. This tougher coaching style is viewed as the “kick in the rear” the team desperately needs. The hope is that being humbled, combined with these difficult conversations and a more confrontational coach, will finally instill the discipline and focus the team has lacked all season.
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Transcript
NOTE: This transcript was generated by artificial intelligence and could contain misspellings and errors.
Ethan Sands: What up, Cavs Nation! I’m your host, Ethan Sands, and I’m back with another episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. And joining me today, none other than Jimmy Watkins, cleveland.com columnist, because he does everything Ohio State, Cleveland Browns and the Cleveland Cavaliers. Jimmy, I just want you to walk the fans and listeners through the last week and a half of your life when it comes to traveling to cover Ohio State, Michigan being at Ohio State, Indiana being at Cleveland Browns games, and then making time for Cleveland Cavaliers content when you have the chance. It’s been a hectic ride. You’ve been doing a great job, a lot of great work. Walk us through what life has been like for you.
Jimmy Watkins: It’s the best time of the year. It’s the busiest time of the year. It’s hectic. I’m spending a lot of plates. The beginning Thanksgiving week, I go Michigan. Monday, I didn’t go to Ohio State this year, but it’s sometimes Michigan, Ohio State back to Michigan for the weekend, for the game. We do the game. We had, of course, Shador’s first home start the Sunday after the game, so gotta get there for that. Actually, there’s also a snowstorm coming back from Michigan, so I had to find a shovel at the hotel I was staying at that morning to shovel myself out of there. And then I got to the Brown Stadium, realized I had left my credential at home, so I had to go back home and get it. And then we be getting ready for Big Ten Championship week, which is a trip to Indy. I didn’t make the Browns game on Sunday Just because 8pm kicks are tough for football. We didn’t get back to the hotel. Me, Andrew, Stefan and Stephen, we didn’t get back to the hotel on Saturday night at like until like three in the morning. And we, I started to write, so, so I got home at like 3:30 on Sunday. And then all the while I’m either watching every Cavs game live or I’m watching the highlights next door. I’m watching like NBA box score stuff or I’m consuming the pot. I’m trying to, I’m trying to keep up with everything as best I can. So this is now we’re kind of like breathing for a second again. Cause Ohio State’s on a long break and the Browns are here, but they’re, they’re going to be in Chicago this week. So we get, we get a chance to breathe, we get a chance to hang out, we get a chance to talk a little basketball. It’s good. It’s all good. Busy’s good.
Ethan Sands: We know you love hoops, Jimmy, and of course you tapped into this podcast and a whole lot of other podcasts that keep you in the loop. But this is a Cleveland Cavaliers team that is much different from last year. You’re going to be coming back onto the beat after the Browns in Ohio State season ends and it’s going to look a little bit shaky around that time of the year because we’re still trying to figure out what version of the Cavs we are going to get. They are 25 games in. This is when Kenny Atkinson sends that an evaluation of this team is prominent is fine, right? Because we get to see a small sample size a quarter of the season into the year and this team is 14 and 11. This team is now on a five day break because of the in season tournament being bounced out of that. We just got done watching some teams punch their ticket to Vegas. The Cavs have not done that since the in season tournament became a thing, since the NBA cup became something that teams are chasing. Jimmy, just give me your thoughts on where this Cavs team is at and what we learned from practice today at Cleveland Clinic Courts. After talking with Kenny Atkinson, DeAndre Hunter and of course Thomas Bryant.
Jimmy Watkins: The Cavs see this as a do over. They need a do over right now. Those first 25 games have been a disappointment. My read on the Cavs as we stand here today, I have reconfigured the question in my head from can they make the final six? Can they make the conference finals? It seems like right now they are chasing the version of themselves that they were last year when we thought there would be, we would be building on that this year. Right now there’s still a lot, a lot of season left. There’s still top 10 in both offense and defense. They’ve still had their moments, but it just seems like right now the main theme has been that these guys are too cool for school. While there can be that that could be an easy fix, I’m still open to the idea that it’s as simple as, you know, the Cavs finally embrace the grind of the season and turn up their intensity and they go on a crazy winning streak and they end up being a top two seed in the east and start looking like the team we all thought they could be. But one of the main takeaways to be you guys aren’t engaged enough. That is one of the most frustrating things to watch as a fan, particularly if we’re going to sound like a broken record here when your team hasn’t won anything yet. There’s an air of confidence about this team. Borderline arrogance, right? Because they’re just sometimes not taking a put like that. Warriors loss over the weekend is just, we’re not taking these dudes very seriously. We think we’re just going to roll the ball out and win the game because we’re better than you guys, because you guys have a bunch of injuries and we have our star players on the court. Right. It’s entitlement. It’s a team that needs to be humbled and you hope over the first 25 games that took place, there’s an opportunity here. We’re talking about this at Cavs practice today, you and I. They play the Wizards on Friday and they’re doing a lot of talking about how this is a great time to reset and they’re having difficult film sessions and they are calling each other out and highlighting mistakes of indifference, mistakes of effort, all that sort of stuff. Saying all the right things. They’ve said the right. That’s the thing about this team. They’ve said all the right things in many cases at every turn. They understand what the problem is and yet the problem persists. So when they roll that ball, my take right now is that when they roll the ball out against the Wizards, who are God awful, the Cavs should win that game by about 30 points because they are going to be as healthy as they’ve been for the first part of the season. Samuel and Max are still important pieces that need to get back. Jared Allen practiced today. That’s good news. They’re getting healthier. They have this opportunity. Yes, the schedule’s been hard. I don’t really lend many sympathetic ears on on schedule this early in the season and with this young of a team. But the schedule has been hard. They have played, I believe, more games than everybody else. I think they’ve had more back to backs than anybody else. They’ve been injured. Understood. But you’ve had five days off. Show us what you’re saying. Put action to words and start, start kicking some of these teams in the east ass like you’re better than them. You know you’re better. You’re acting like you’re better than them. You start playing like you’re better than them.
Ethan Sands: Jimmy, I think that’s well said, especially the point where you talk about just the overall mentality of this team. Right. We came into the season talking about mental toughness, being one of the big pieces for this team to have to overcome. Kobe Altman talks about, Kenny Atkinson talks about it DeAndre Hunter talks about it then and again today, saying that there’s still room for improvement and that was part of what practice was today. Not only was it when they got onto the court, they were focused on getting back to their defensive principles and then on Wednesday they’re going to focus on the offense, but they had a player led meeting on Tuesday ahead of practice where they not only went over film and had tough and accountable conversations with one another, but they also just had a conversation about why this has been happening and what needs to improve. And I think it’s a good thing for the Cavs to be doing this 25 games in. If they were doing it 70 games into the season and having player led meetings, we’d be having a different conversation. But because of the historical context of teams getting to the NBA Finals while having a lesser than ideal start to the season, at least 25 games in, then you understand that this COWS team isn’t as far off as you might have thought. And just to add some context to this conversation, we look at some of the teams from the last five years. The 2025 Indiana Pacers were 10 and 15, the 2024 Dallas Mavericks were 16 and 9, the 2023 Miami Heat were 11 and 14, the 2023 Denver Nuggets were 15 and 10, the 2022 Boston Celtics were 13 and 12, the 2021 Phoenix Suns were 16 and 9 and the 2021 Milwaukee Bucks were also 16 and 9. But Jimmy, multiple times throughout this season DeAndre Hunter has hinted at the fact that this team needs to be tougher, needs to be physically tougher as well. And it starts with the mental aspect of going to get balls that are simply 50, 50 and as Jalen Tyson said before, the season should be 70, 30 because of the effort level that this team should demand from itself and all of the players on it. And to me, when you look at the mental toughness that leaves and derives into the physical toughness, I think that’s still an area that is weak for this team and needs to continue to grow. And hopefully this is what the Cavs are hoping that the film session, the conversations this five days is going to change the narrative for themselves internally. But that’s the ideal mindset and I’m hoping we get to see a shift in this team when it comes to in Washington against a lower level team. And I wrote about this earlier into the season, Jimmy, how you should go into the United center every time and suck the air out of the arena because there should be no hope. What the Oklahoma City Thunder did to the Utah Jazz, making their coach erupt on the sidelines. That’s how the Cows should make the Washington Wizards feel when they play against one another.
Jimmy Watkins: The mental toughness thing is remains the biggest red flag about this team because that’s again, they said all the right things coming out of the playoffs last year. We needed to get tougher. What were they saying in the preseason? We need to treat the regular season like it matters because we haven’t proven anything yet. I’ve quoted Donovan on this a bunch of times. We were trying to ask him last spring, how could you showcase mental toughness during the regular season? No slip ups. Never lose two in a row like Boston. I don’t know why he keeps alluding to Boston. Boston would sleepwalk through the regular season quite a bit, but that’s not at all what we’ve seen. We’ve seen quite the opposite. Put it simply, the regular season has been too much for the Cavs to handle mentally. What do you think the playoffs are going to look like if these trends continue? It’s early, I’ll keep saying it, but Kenny Atkinson said today, this feels a lot like being down 2:1 in the playoff series. Huh? No, it’s the regular season. They all told us the lessons coming out of last season was that there’s nothing about the regular season that can approximate the pressure of the playoffs. And part of that is because they had such a they lived such a charm existence in the regular season. But they, the Cavs have experienced regular season adversity before and sold us this narrative of oh, we’ve been through this. This will help us down the road. Evan Mobley and Darius Garland, boy, they missed six weeks and our season was teetering and it sounded like JB Bickerstaff was on the hot seat. And then Donovan Mitchell and Jared Allen went superhero and wow, the season saved now and then and you lost in five games to the Boston Celtics and you almost lost to the Orlando Magic in the first playoff series of that young course tenure, right? This is not a facts only of anything they’re going to see in the playoffs. This right here is about getting back to the level that you were out. I need to see the outline that regular season outline of a contender first before I’m believing anything else about growth of the mentality in the playoffs or anything like that. Like you’re below your starting point right now and you need to get back to that. That’s the first step. Then we can have bigger conversations about what translates to the playoffs and what doesn’t. I thought this was going to be a season of adding tweaks and putting, putting sprinkles on top to what was a great meal last year. Instead, they’ve spent 25 games now and we’ll see how much longer this goes trying to catch up to where they started. Remember, where they started is not good enough to win more than one game against the Indiana Pacers. That’s the starting point and we’re still trying to get back to that. Mentally, Mentally, the East has changed the Cavs, you know, you can argue there’s still been some growth from individual players. They’re not whole yet, but mental toughness wise, the starting point is five game loss in the second round to the eventual Eastern Crawfords champion Indiana Pacers and they’re still falling short of that so far. That is the biggest concern to this point in the season.
Ethan Sands: And Jimmy, I think when we talk about what Kenny Atkinson was saying at practice today, he said two different things a little bit, right? He’s talking about this process that they’re going through and how they have to raise their compete level. One another red flag. You tell us your competitors, right? Obviously you’re NBA players. We saw DeAndre Hunter working out. He was competing in drills. But you tell us your competitors, why would you have to raise your compete level when it comes to a regular season NBA game, when you know everything is under a microscope, especially after the season you had last season. But then you also come and tell us that you’re not enjoying this process, you’re not enjoying the time off. The five days aren’t necessarily going to be fun because it’s coming with tough conversations, harsh film sessions, uncomfortable scenarios. And I think uncomfortable is good for this team, right? Because when you’re in an uncomfortable situation, you learn from it. And I think the major thing that we’re waiting to see for this team is, is how they respond to adversity because they keep talking about adversity is good now, adversity is good now, adversity is good if you can respond to it. And we haven’t seen that. And obviously the Washington Wizards game isn’t really the telltale sign on how they get back to it. Jimmy, I’m more so looking at the last part of this month. But being able to stack wins, be able to stack principles, being able to stack habits is what is most important after the new year. And Jimmy, I want to get into a quick question from our subtexters, one that you asked about during today’s practice, which has to do with Evan Mobley. This one comes from Anu from San Francisco. He says I know a couple pods ago Chris mentioned consistency for Evan Mobley. To me, Evan has started to turn the corner a little bit. Do you agree? If so, what has led to this? If not, why? Some stats to consider below. This is also why I love Anu. Adding in stats to his own question 20 points in 4 of the last 10 games. Double double in 6 of the last 10 games. Career high in assists to date for per game. I assume he’s mentioning well, Jimmy, as you heard from the players and DeAndre Hunter specifically, he’s getting the ball at different positions on the floor that allow him to attack readily and more easily than having to dribble the ball from the three point line and then attack the rim. So getting the ball at the free throw line extended and we’ve talked about this on this podcast, how the Cavs need to be able to give him the ball in more advantageous situations, more advantageous positions. But that’s not necessarily what the Cavs have been preaching to us about the growth of Evan Mobley and how he can create offense. But I think they’re learning what he’s best at and how to utilize him in this offense.
Jimmy Watkins: It’s caveman basketball. Okay, let’s break it down. Cavs have tall player. Cavs give tall player ball closer to basket. Tall players score basket more easy K fan basketball okay, Evan Moby to start this season, they tried to put a bunch of different stuff on his plate. They wanted to see how far I could stretch his skill set. I was in favor of it. I wanted to see what Evan Mobley could do with a little bit more freedom. What he ended up doing with it honestly is hanging out a lot by the three point line. He got real comfortable shooting these three pointers that other teams wanted him to give. And I feel like sometimes as Kenny’s talking out of both sides of his mouth on this because on the one hand the Cavs sort of took away some of that freedom and now they’re gearing at what Kanye said today is that Evan’s on the upper trajectory. He Tommy, if this sounds exactly like what we just said about the Cavs, he is getting back to the Evan of last year. We were aiming for top five on MVP candidates start the season. For those keeping score at home, we are now 25 games in the season getting toward back to where he was last year because the Cavs realized maybe he’s not ready for that super mega leap yet. That, that last star leap of we just given the ball and make stuff happen. Okay, Kenny dropped his stat. I didn’t get a chance to fact check this yet today, but Kenny dropped the stat that he’s near the top of the league, if not the top of the league in dunks over the last month. That’s a good sign for the entire year. Actually, one of the few positive signs for him the entire time has been his free throw rate is up, he’s shooting, he’s shooting more free throws and that will skew to. Because some of his percentage of shots from the outside versus inside are skewing a little bit more outside this year. Now when you’re drawing fouls, there’s no count as field goal attempts. So that’s going to skew the numbers a little bit too. Evan Mobley is still, I think, getting better as an AT rim finisher. But now I think once we settle into, okay, Evan Moby, Evan Moby last year again, then where do you go? We kind of tried to stretch his wings again. The start of this year didn’t work out. There was no Darius Garland. Maybe that can change things. I think he’s learning better to modulate the difference between, okay, I, I do this, I put my head down. Being aggressive means I put my head down at all costs, and being aggressive means me attacking my matchup when I have a good one at the right time, but then still being cognizant of what’s around me. I think his assist to usage ratio, that’s a weird cleaning the glass stat that is basically like, how often are you making decisions with the ball and during that time, how often are you getting assists? That’s going up. That’s good. He’s making better decisions with the basketball, but I think that’s also because the Cavs are simplifying those decisions for him a little bit. Like getting from the three point line to the rim is different from getting to. From the free throw line to the rim or just back. It’s backing somebody down. Right. And I think it is a good thing that he’s trending back to where he was. But I’m still wondering about the next step, where they go from there because that’s still the ticket to the promised land. If the Cavs are going to get to the conference finals or the finals, they still need more from Evan Mobley. But you know what? I think we’re honestly getting a little ahead of myself right now because Evan Moby and the Cav are in the same spot right now. They have been below their starting point and we already know their starting point isn’t good enough. But you got to get back to the starting point before we start talking next steps. So the fact that he’s getting back closer to what he was last year, I think that’s a victory given how this season started out for him. And let’s see, let’s see where it goes from there. Let’s let him settle into this, get comfortable with this again now that Darius is back. And then we’ll start asking the bigger, harder questions about Evan again.
Ethan Sands: Yeah, Jimmy. And as you kind of alluded to in practice today with some of your questions, like his numbers are reminiscent of last year, some of the field goal.
Jimmy Watkins: Percentage in three, they’re basically the exact same, except he’s less efficient for the most.
Ethan Sands: Exactly. And the other portion of this, which you said a little bit there at the end, they can’t have last year’s version of Evan Mobley because it didn’t work. It wasn’t enough. And Donovan Mitchell is playing to an MVP caliber this year. This year specifically has been one of the best seasons of his entire career. And still they’re struggling in the regular season. So he needs help. He needs somebody. Even if it’s a 1, a 1B situation rather than a 1 and a 2. Someone has to step up for Donovan Mitchell. And I think this kind of gets into the next question that I wanted to touch on from our subtexters, which comes from Jeff in Harbor Washington. He says hoping this five day break helps the team get focused. Do you think we might see some shakeup coming out of the break? Maybe DeAndre Hunter to the bench, more minutes, bigger roles for Jalen Tyson, DeAndre Hunter and Naquan Tomlin. And then he says, give me some optimism on how this team can gel and find winning ways. Well, Jeff, I don’t want to burst your bubble here, but Kenny Akinson was pretty clear about it today that there’s not going to be overhaul when it comes to this team. It’s more so getting back to the basics. And as much as he didn’t like my question from a couple of weeks ago about fundamentals and getting back to the principles of the game that he is trying to instill rather than going to this big analytical view and solely being sucked into the stats of everything that’s going on, he talked about that today about getting back to the principles and the fundamentals of what this Cavs team needs to do. Getting back in transition, rebounding, getting out into the break, getting into the scoring zone with efficiency and purpose. Those are things that the Cavs can change and can fix. But for me, when it comes to giving you optimism about how this team can get back to its winning ways, it’s them having these uncomfortable conversations with one another. Last year they were playing with so much joy that you couldn’t see the flaws. Everyone was happy go lucky in the new Kenny Atkinson offense and the new system that was being fostered. But now you’re having these hard hitting conversations, these hard hitting questions about what areas can the Cavs get better at so that they can get back to their winning ways, as Jeff put it. And to me, Jimmy, I’m not trying to give them excuses, but Jared Allen’s been out. As you mentioned, he practiced today. He was a full participant, which bodes well for how he will move throughout the rest of the week. Sam Merrill still out, right? He did not even practice today. Kenny Atkinson mentioned that swelling is going down, but it’s a slow process, right? Especially when we know there’s not a lot of meats on these hands. So if it’s a big bruise, if a big strain, this is going to be a difficult process, especially for a shooter. So he’s still doing left hand drills, conditioning drills, but Sam Arrow still cannot shoot a basketball, per Kenny Atkinson at this point. Then you have Max Strus. Max Strust is still trying to come back. I know there have been reports about weeks rather than months of from other people. Max Druce couldn’t bowl at his bowling event on Sunday. I asked him while he was walking by if he was going to bowl and he said no, I can’t. So that’s not a positive sign. Then you talk about how that changes the lineup. And Jimmy, I wrote this for the website the other day. When Matt Strus comes back, I think the Cows are going to send DeAndre Hunter to the bench and I think the question then becomes whether or not you have Max Stroos be the starter and then also add in Jalen Tyson to the starting unit when Darius Garland isn’t playing back to backs. Or if you have Jaylon Tyson, simply be the starter from here on out because of how he has impacted the game on both ends of the floor and is one of the best shooters that the Cavs have had. And you allow Max to get back into a rhythm off the bench because Kenny Atkinson has alluded to wanting to use DeAndre Hunter more in the second unit on multiple different occasions throughout the season and how that helps him get more attack heavy, more shots up, especially around players like Donovan Mitchell and Darius Garland who have the ball and want the ball in their hands. And especially Evan Mobley at this point in his career as well. So that’s the shakeup I’m going to perceive is going to take place. But that’s down the line because we still have to wait for these players to get back. As of now, I think a lot of the things are going to stay the same when it comes to lineups and rotations rather than obviously the players who are out. Larry Nance Jr. As well. And trying to figure out if Tyrese Proctor is going to be back, but I didn’t see him at practice today either.
Jimmy Watkins: Sam and Max are the Cavs best movers, cutters off ball shooters. Right. That’s a big component of this offense. When you have someone out there who’s always the defense has to be checking for because they’re five alarm fire when they get open from three that’s a huge part of it. That’s no doubt. Jared Allen missing time and or playing hurt. No doubt be no doubt. But to me the smack adjustment is fricking. Play better, play harder, do the things that you’re saying that you need to do. They all recognize it to the point about like finding the joy. Kenny kind of alluded to this. Like finding the joy is you get the joy from doing the stuff right. It’s not like joy exists and then you play better. Like to my Ohio State travelings recently, what Ryan Day has been kicking around recently. His catchphrase is fun is kicking ass. That’s what’s fun. Okay, so you win, the fun follows. You hear all the time these teams who win a bunch of games of the Dynastic warriors during their run, they play with so much joy. Yeah, they were winning 60 games a year. It’s pretty fun. Pretty fun out there when you’re playing that way. They do also happen to play a fun style. The Cavs, when they’re rolling play a fun style but when you’re not scoring it’s not. It’s not as fun. I’ll co sign what you’re saying about for signs of optimism. It does seems like there’s this team’s been humbled a little bit. Like now that they’ve had a chance to stop and catch their breath and really watch up close how much juice they’ve been lacking. Again, they’re saying the right things. DeAndre Hunter’s saying it’s a humbling experience. Thomas Bryant is saying he thinks that they’ll come out with the right attitude after this break ahead of Friday’s game. I’ve just heard this team say the right thing too many times. And not like, I just gotta see like, like a lot of things with the Cavs. I just gotta see it, man. Like how many days ago, five days ago, four days ago, the Cavs had a really nice second half win against the spurs. And they were telling us that they got their joy back. Remember they found it. They found it during the spurs game. A game that Quincy, they won by double digit points. Huh? Weird. Found your joy when you were winning. And then what they do the next day, they lost to the Zombie G League Warriors. There have been moments where maybe there’s just certain pieces put the pieces together, but it’s got to be consistent and it’s gotta be the simplest. You have to be engaged for no other reason. Like, I still think that playoff seating is going to be really important for this team. I think home court advantage is going to matter a bunch. The Eastern Conference is better than we thought it was going to be.
Ethan Sands: It just.
Jimmy Watkins: It is. The Celtics, hmm. Celtics got some soul. They got some championship DNA over there. Maybe take a note from them. Their best players hurt. They traded away two of their other starters. Drew Holliday and Chris Osprezingis. Everyone and their mother say, ah, the Celtics, this is the year for them to tank. This is their gap year. Top 5 net rating. Team Chomizula is a psycho. Jaylen Brown is built for this. Jaylen Brown every time. Remember a couple years ago when the Celtics were. I won. I don’t know if it was the year they won the title, the year that they were defending the title. They came in Cleveland, they got beat pretty good by the Cavs and two men. Basically everyone in that locker room saying, it’s no big deal. It’s a regular season. If we were having this conversation in March, sound familiar? Jaylen Brown went up to the podium, he said, no, this, this is bad. And we should feel bad about it. When you’re playing a game, you should always be trying your hardest to win. We weren’t doing that. And from that day forward, I was like, you know what? Jaylen Brown, sometimes inefficient player, sometimes doesn’t pass the ball when he needs to pass the ball, doesn’t dribble with his left hand. The best. But I go, I go in the Fox role with Jaylen Brown. This guy’s about all the right stuff. He says and he backs it up. What did the casting doing this whole year I. I like the adversity. Adversity is good for us. You don’t know, you don’t know what adversity is. If you think this is real adversity, this is self created, self generated adversity. They are making harder on themselves because they’re not taking the regular season seriously and it’s multifaceted. There’s new guys in the rotation. The Cavs are missing Ty Jerome right now. They might be missing him anyways because he’s been hurt a lot of the season, but they are missing that spark plug guy who, who. Okay, we’re missing someone tonight. Here’s someone who could just get us 20 points when we need him to get us 20 points and run an offense. As much as Ty Jerome was like irrational confidence guy last year, he was also one of few bench guys who were averaging like three and a half assists in whatever minute total. I remember making that list last year. He was a high assist guy for his minute load. They’re missing him right now for sure. Lonzo Ball is also not being Lonzo Ball. But even theory of Lonzo Ball is best added to a healthy Crabs Cavs group. He’s not the guy that you can turn to and say help. We need someone else who can be the usage guy. He’s not that guy. He’s going to, he’s going to take two dribbles. He’s going to get off the ball or he’s going to hoist a three pointer. He doesn’t go to the rim anymore. Just how it is. It’s look in the mirror and do better is really not that complicated.
Ethan Sands: And just going back to the optimism point real quickly because I think I’ve mentioned it on this.
Jimmy Watkins: Yeah, sorry, that was supposed to be optimistic.
Ethan Sands: I’ve mentioned it on this podcast. Like I think this team needs more fire. The competitive spirit, the competitive fire. It’s needed them glossing over things. Donovan Mitchell not wanting to necessarily say call it a bad thing. Jaylon Tyson in second year calling the team out was needed. I mentioned it earlier. Utah Jazz coach being recorded calling out his entire bench is needed sometimes. Right there. There was other coaches around the league that have got caught chewing out their players. It’s a part of the game when you are a competitive ball club. You mentioned it there. Jimmy Joe Missoula is a psycho. He is going to hold his players accountable to a different standard every game. It does not matter who they’re playing. He expects them to win. Ime Odoka is the same way. Those guys don’t smile right. Those guys are only happy after wins, and you can barely tell. And today we heard from DeAndre Hunter saying that Kenny Atkinson called them out. I don’t know how fiery Kenny Atkinson got when he called them out, but calling them out is a step up. Last year we were hearing about the throwing of water bottles and the smacking of flip flops and everybody was laughing about these things. Sure, Kenny Atkinson has been known to be a psycho. Like Steve Kerr mentioned it when he was here the other day. Like he used to pace and get miles up when doing his evil mad scientist thought process during playoff runs. And that’s needed. But if he’s not being taken seriously when guys are out of pocket or when guys need to be checked, need to be corrected. For DeAndre Hunter to say that it was an uncomfortable or a tough film session because Kenny Atkinson doesn’t usually do that kind of thing and he called them out, I think that’s a step in the right direction. I think that’s kind of what this Cass team needs, especially going into the end of December as they face off against teams like the Charlotte Hornets and the Washington Wizards. And then at the end of the month, we know what happens. Christmas comes around. They play the Knicks, then they play the Rockets, then they play the spurs again. So you can talk about banking wins. These next four or five games seem simple enough, but again, the Cavs team hasn’t given me that kind of reassurance. For them to not play down to the level of their opponent and then have to resurge on a Christmas Day game that you earned from your play of last season. I think that’s going to be like the big turn of events when it comes to this Cavs season where all eyes are going to be and how they respond and, and how they act at that kind of.
Jimmy Watkins: To drop down. Kenny, this is a return to his roots when he was with the Brooklyn Nets and he was coaching. And this is how you kind of have to be sometimes with really, really young teams that Ken like Kenny had in Brooklyn or even just like teams that need to be greater than the sum of their parts. Like Jared Allen has said, like, if you didn’t know him, you might rub you the wrong way. Like he would rip into guys. He was an intense coach. That’s part of the reason, I think, like Kevin Durant and Kyrie Irving into Kenny. This is why Kenny went on his assistant coach odyssey to learn from Ty Lue and Steve Kerwick when to push those buttons, how to manage superstars. Because you can’t just go around in the NBA anymore because the players have so much fricking power and make so much fricking money. You can’t just go around screaming superstars all the time. Willy nilly. Donovan says he embraces it. I think he’s an outlier in that regard. The Clippers just kicked Chris Paul off their team for trying to switch Kawhi off of Klay Thompson in the middle of a game because Clay was killing him. Okay, There’s a lot that goes into that. Chris Paul is older. He doesn’t have the same kind of juice that he might have in an organization that he might have when he was younger. But, like, if it wasn’t Kawhi, if it was someone who’s a little bit more open to Chris son, you think that might have happened? Do you think that would have happened? I don’t think so. I think Chris Paul would still be on the Clippers. It’s also. It’s not just the message. It’s the way you message it. Okay. Chris Paul for years has been known as someone who can rub people the wrong way. But I think Kenny might have overcorrected a little bit when he got to Cleveland. You learn from Steve Kerr, be the Zen guy. And Steve Kerr throws clipboards too, sometimes. But be the Zen guy. Give players ownership of the offense. Let them try to figure out player led culture. Ty Lue was able to get to the point where he and LeBron had a good relationship. LeBron’s not an easy guy to coach. He’s coach Kawhi Leonard, Paul George over there, he was. Now you got James Harden even harder. Got James Harden, Kwai Leonard over there, the Clippers, Kenny saw that up close. He came over here. I think he applied those lessons last year. It really worked because they were coming from a guy on JB Pickerstaff who maybe pushed too far the other way. I think Kenny was a breath of fresh air in that regard. Remember, we had all these guys telling us, like, man, it feels like I, if I miss this shot, I won’t get benched. That’s pretty nice. Well, this year, I think now they need to be pulled in a little bit. Now they need to be humbled. Now they need to be, I guess, yelled at. However you want to deliver that message. And so now it’s a return to his roots, and now it’s mixing what he was with what he’s become and trying to find this balance for a team that clearly needs a kick in the rear right now.
Ethan Sands: Dave Kerr said it kind of like New York Kenny, because Kenny from New York, New York Kenny was all out in full force in Brooklyn. He got to come to sunny San Francisco and chill out a little bit and relax. And now it’s like, oh, you gotta find that middle ground. And I think that’s important. But Jimmy, I want to get your thoughts just on the landscape of the Eastern Conference and obviously the NBA as a whole. But I feel like the Western Conference is what it is. You have okc running away with it 23. One currently potential to break the record for wins in a season. But when you look at the Eastern Conference, Detroit is sits at the number one seed. They’re two and a half games ahead of the New York Knicks. The Boston Celtics are in the third seed. They’re four games behind the Pistons. The fourth seed is Orlando Magic. Then it’s the Raptors, then it’s the 76ers and then the Cavs are in the seven seed, playing bound currently with the Heat, the Atlanta Hawks and the Milwaukee Bucks, which outside of the Miami heats. That would be an interesting play in tournament if things paved out how it is right now. But Jimmy, I just one I first want to give you credit for a take that you had early into the season, before the season actually, when we were doing our predictions, you did have Toronto as a sleeper. How they were constructed. Obviously getting Brandon Ingram back from injury last year is huge. They’ve been a team that’s been interesting, been decent to see play, and a team that has given the Cavs a run for their money, winning all three contests against them already this season. But Jimmy, the Cavs are the seventh seed at 14 and 11. What do you think about where they sit 25 games in and what is the most logical thing for them or most feasible place for them to be at? Because we came in saying they were the unequivocal number one seed, could be the number two seed.
Jimmy Watkins: Well, the good news is they’re only a game and a half out of three. Right? So as, as for all of our hand wringing and all of the validation concerns that we have about this team, big picture for them to get where they need to go. They’re even three games behind the Knicks for the second seed. They’re one really good run away. I do think they’re going to have at least one really good run. They’re too talented to not unless things completely fall apart, to not make one at least really impressive run over the course. They’re one really good run away from being in the Top three being about where they need to be. I think I. They’ve. At the beginning of the season, I would have liked them to get the number one seed. I don’t know. We’ll see about how Detroit keeps going. At this point, they seem legit. They seem like they’re going to be tough for, for teams to catch in the regular season.
Ethan Sands: They’re.
Jimmy Watkins: They’re a superpower. One of their superpowers. Intensity, physicality. The things that the Cavs don’t have. But I’ll say it, I will put it to you this way. The Cavs regular season going to be fine. The playoffs, we came into this season thinking, damn, they’re going to cakewalk into the conference finals. Who’s going to challenge them outside of New York? That is no longer the case. We just talked about. I just thought about Detroit. I have questions about some of their lineups. They played up to like 4 non shooters sometimes. I don’t know how Cade’s getting into the paint with these guys, but they’re fricking mean, they’re fricking physical. They play really good defense. Jalen Duran is a big problem. He might be an all star. He’s frickin. He’s hulked out. He’s so strong. That’s a guy who I could see given the Cavs problems down low. The Christians get offensive rebounds. The Prestons play defense. The Pistons impose their will on you. They make you play their style. That’s the matchup that I’m now circling and saying, I think I’d pick the Cavs, but let’s see. The Knicks, we know, Boston Celtics, we’re on the list before the season. So the team, I was like, I was thinking like the Celtics are at least going to get into the play in like these guys are crazy and potentially Jason Tatum might play well. Now they’re the third seed. Now they’re finding like they’re looking like over the last month or so, like kind of an elite team. And now the Jason Tatum question is really interesting. If they can keep this up, if they can even. If they can linger even in like the top six, if the Celtics are definitely a playoff team. I think we’re going to start hearing about Jason Tatum getting ready to play before the regular season’s over and trying to tune up for a playoff run. That’s a wrinkle we didn’t anticipate. We don’t know what he’s going to look like if and when, if he were to come back. Right. But that’s a team that you didn’t think you’re going to have to reckon with. Now I think you might have to reckon with them. Right. The Magic and the Raptors, I’ll put them in similar boats. They both have excellent positional size, they both play excellent defense and they both bother the Cavs. We’ve seen it. The Raptors put a ton of pressure on you put found pressure on the Cavs. They throw a lot of length at them. They haven’t handled it well during the matchup so far this season. I again with Toronto, I have questions about how some of that stuff is going to translate to the playoffs. With some of the three point shooting that we’re seeing, how much of it is real, all that stuff the Toronto Raptors are not going to be a fun team to see in the playoffs. The Orlando Magic are starting to kind of round in the team that we’re, that we thought we were going to see for the season. They just beat the height the Heat tonight in the NBA Cup. Desmond Bain had 37 points. Desmond Bain has started to shoot the ball like Desmond Bain. You’re seeing their offense unlock as a result. Franz is hurt now. Paolo was hurt before. They kind of straightened it out while Paolo was hurt and now they’re asking Paolo to do it while friends. Like at some point this team’s going to get whole again and if they can hang around the 3, 4 range and then get whole and figure out, apply the lessons that they’ve learned. That’s a team that we already know has given this version of the CAVS problems. Game 7 problems in the playoffs now they’re more mature now. They’ve added a couple of really interesting pieces. Desmond Bain could be a game, game changer. We’re four or five teams deep and I’m just like the landscape of the east has changed. It’s no longer a walkthrough. It’s no longer. I think I hinted at this at the beginning of the season. I’ll say it again here. I no longer feel. I used to think that the Cavs could correct essentially nothing about their playoff laws and still win two rounds in the playoffs. I now feel like the Cavs have to make a jump from where they were to potentially even win two rounds in the playoffs, depending on how the matchups break down. And by the way, the matchups might break down a little funkier because you’ve started so poorly. We’re like a third of the way into the season basically, and you’re the seventh seed. I think they’ll probably end up in the top three. But that changes if you’re the one seed and you’re playing four or five completely different. Like you might have to play the Knicks in the second round. You might have to play the Pistons. Like these teams that we’re talking about potentially like would you would think as conference finals problems. What if they become second round problems? What if you have to beat two of these teams to get to the finals when you thought you only had to beat one? Like that’s. You’re opening Pandora’s box here by taking a nonchalant approach to the regular season. The regular season doesn’t matter for teams like the Thunder, who ironically are murdering the regular season and I would bet money at this point are going to break the regular season wins record. It doesn’t really matter to them. It didn’t really matter to the LeBron Cavs teams who knew they could figure this stuff out. It does matter to you. It does because you need the seating. You can’t just be these Cavs. I’m not convinced. Can just waltz in the playoffs nec and then turn it on and say yeah, we’re the best team in the East. That’s not how it works for them. That’s not how it’s going to work for them.
Ethan Sands: Yeah, Jimmy and I agree with you there. I just think it’s going to be difficult. And I floated this to Spencer Davies when he was on the podcast, I believe it was last week. I think the Cavs playing the Pistons would be one of the most fun series we’ve seen in the Eastern Conference in a long time. Like first, second round. I don’t think it’s going to be an Eastern Conference finals matchup, but I do think that when it comes to just the Overall view of J.E. bickerstaff vs. Kenny Atkinson, defense vs. Offense, just the principles set in place for both teams, physicality versus free flowing. The philosophy based conversations that we’re having with this team, especially when we know the identity of the Detroit Pistons. And I keep saying this, but the Cavs continue to use the word identity but failed to articulate to me what that actually is for them. Obviously defense first is what it is and right now it really just looks like Evan Mobley.
Jimmy Watkins: They’re great at articulating it, they just don’t embody it. They love talking about what they are. They just don’t. They don’t show us.
Ethan Sands: If you look at the Detroit Pistons, if you look at the Houston Rockets, if you look at these other teams that have known it even when players are injured, physicality is a big key for them. Okc, guard, your yard, switch, everything. Everybody’s going to be involved on the defensive end of the floor and then on the offensive end. Give the ball to Shay and he’ll make the right play. But I think the Cavs are still searching for what works best for them. I think injuries play a part in that. But as I continue to say on this podcast, an identity should not be based on who you have on the floor. Literally. Supposed to be something that you can rely on on any given night, no matter who’s out, no matter who’s in. And the cast has not been able to do that. It has changed every single night. We’re waiting to see what this cast team is going to do. They’re going to allow media to talk to us one more time before they get back on the court. I believe it is. It’s going to be Thursday, so we’ll get to hear more from this team and we’ll get to have more context on what this Cavs team is working on, where they sit, the health of the players and all that is coming soon. So that’ll wrap up today’s episode of the One and Goal Talk podcast. But remember to become a Cavs insider and interact with Chris, me and Jimmy by subscribing to Subtext. Sign up for a 14 day free trial or visit cleveland.comcavs and click on the blue bar at the top of the page. If you don’t like it, that’s fine. All you have to do is text the word stop. It’s easy, but we can tell you that the people who sign up stick around because this is the best way to get insider coverage on the Cavs from me, Chris and Jimmy. This isn’t just our podcast, it’s your podcast. And the only way to have your voice heard is through subtext. Y’ all be safe. We out. Sam.