CLEVELAND, Ohio — In this episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast, Ethan Sands, Chris Fedor and Jimmy Watkins analyze the Cavs’ front office, particularly how it has found capable, low-cost replacements for Ty Jerome and Isaac Okoro.
Takeaways:
1. The Significant Impact of Key Absences
The Cavaliers are acutely feeling the absences of Ty Jerome and Isaac Okoro. Jerome was a Sixth Man of the Year candidate who provided critical bench scoring, playmaking and energy, with his absence directly contributing to the Cavs having one of the NBA’s least productive bench units. The decision not to re-sign him was financial, but his versatile offensive contributions have been irreplaceable. Concurrently, losing Okoro has weakened the team’s perimeter defense. As the primary point-of-attack defender, his absence has placed a greater defensive burden on Darius Garland and Donovan Mitchell, contributing to the team’s slow defensive start to the season and the loss of a contagious defensive energy.
2. Front Office Lauded for Building Depth Amidst Constraints
Despite being the NBA’s only second-apron tax team, the Cavaliers’ front office has successfully built one of the league’s deepest rosters with 13 to 14 playable players. This was achieved through astute scouting, player development, and finding value in overlooked assets. The development of Dean Wade, the emergence of Jaylon Tyson and the signing of undrafted guard Craig Porter Jr. are highlighted as major successes. These moves demonstrate the front office’s ability to fortify the roster with cost-effective, serviceable players. This skill is considered essential for the team’s long-term success, given their limited financial flexibility and lack of future draft capital due to the Donovan Mitchell trade.
3. Peer Recognition Confirms Front Office Success
In a survey conducted by The Athletic, 36 NBA executives ranked the Cavaliers’ front office as the sixth-best in the league, an improvement from their eighth-place finish the previous year. This high praise from their peers validates the front office’s strategic moves. Executives specifically cited the team’s impressive talent identification on the back end of the roster, evidenced by the success of players like Dean Wade, Sam Merrill and Jaylon Tyson. This external recognition underscores the respect the organization has earned for building a deep, competitive team through smart drafting (Evan Mobley), trades (Donovan Mitchell, Jarrett Allen), and turning overlooked players into valuable rotation pieces.
4. Roster’s Future Flexibility and Tradeable Contracts
A key strength of the roster constructed by the front office is its financial flexibility and lack of crippling contracts. Should the team underperform and require a future shake-up, they possess numerous valuable and tradeable assets. The core players, including Darius Garland and Jarrett Allen, would command significant interest on the trade market. Furthermore, key role players like De’Andre Hunter and Max Strus are on reasonable, team-friendly deals that other teams would find attractive. This strategic contract management ensures the Cavaliers are not locked into their current roster and have multiple avenues to retool or pivot if the current core fails to meet championship expectations.
5. The Misaligned Timelines of Donovan Mitchell and the Young Core
A central challenge confronting the Cavaliers is the potential misalignment between the “win-now” timeline of Donovan Mitchell and the developmental curve of young stars Evan Mobley and Darius Garland. While Mitchell is primed to compete for a championship, there are significant questions as to whether Mobley and Garland are ready to perform as consistent, high-level co-stars on a title contender. The initial expectation that Mitchell would eventually “pass the torch” to one of the younger players is now a complicated issue. This reality may force the Cavaliers to commit to a massive contract extension for Mitchell, even if it’s considered an “overpay,” because the younger core isn’t yet prepared to lead the franchise.
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Transcript
NOTE: This transcript was generated by artificial intelligence and could contain misspellings and errors.
Ethan Sands: What up Cavs Nation? I’m your host Ethan Sands and I’m back with another episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. And joining me today, it’s two of the best in the business. Chris Fedor, cleveland.com/cavs beat reporter and Jimmy Watkins, cleveland.com columnist and we’re here today to talk about the front office. Some moves have been made as we have already talked about over the off season. The Cavs are now seeded 14-11, the seventh seed in the Eastern Conference and I think it’s about time that we dissect the moves that have been made. And then also an article that was recently released when it comes to how the NBA perceives the front offices of around the league as a whole. Chris Jimmy, let’s start here. The Cavs have been without Ty Jerome and Isaac Okoro for 25 games now. Obviously Ty Jerome’s presence has been missed as the bench creation has been lackluster. The offensive production has been minimized when it comes to that bench unit. Isaac Okoro the Cavs do not have a true ball stopper guard at the point of attack and they’ve been looking for somebody to take over that role. How big have you guys noticed the absences of these two players on the court and what could that bow for the playoffs when it comes to this Cavs team this season?
Chris Fedor: I think obviously Ty’s the big one. Ty had the ability to turn 5 point leads into 15 point leads, 20 point leads. He was responsible for so many of the Cavalanches throughout the course of last year. He was on a team friendly contract and he was in the running for six man of the year. So the kind of dribble penetration that he brought to the team, the kind of organization that he brought to the offense, the kind of three point shooting and ability to get to the basket, get to that little floater from the mid range, get all of the way to the point paint, run a two man game with Jared Allen. Yeah, the Cavs miss all of those things from Ty. Having a lethal consistent score off the bench is something that they’ve been missing throughout the course of this year. They’ve got the second least productive bench in the entire NBA and it certainly coincides with the absence of somebody like Ty. So I think at the time that the Cavs made the difficult financial decision that they had to make on Ty, I think they knew that they were going to feel that absence. I think they understood that it was going to be a loss. But the situation that they were in in terms of Their salary, the situation that they were in in terms of what was available to them throughout the course of the off season, they almost didn’t have a choice. They couldn’t bring back Ty. But certainly if we’re talking about both of those guys, the. The guy that they feel the absence the most is Ty. I think his energy, I think his sweet swag, I think his spirit. So many of the things that the Cavs have talked about throughout the course of these first 25 games, specifically over the last two weeks, of. Of what has been lacking from this team, Ty brought all of that kind of stuff and obviously it hasn’t been easy for them to replicate because the guys that they brought in to do some of the tie related things, they’re not tie and they bring a different kind of skill set. Lonzo Ball is a different kind of guard than Ty Jerome. Lonzo Ball has a different way of attacking defenses than Ty Jerome. So if we’re talking Isaac Okoro, Tai Jerome, which one are the Cavs feeling the most? I don’t even think it’s close, to be perfectly honest with you.
Jimmy Watkins: Yeah. Particularly for the bind they’re in right now. Bodies have been rotated in and out. They need more playmaking juice. They need more scoring juice. They need juice in general. Like when Ty goes on a heater, the energy in the entire building would change as a counterpoint to this. Like, Ty drones hurt right now. So who knows in the universe where the Cavs retain Ty Drone, does Tyrone get hurt? I don’t know how that kind of butterfly effect works, but I do think we prop MIAs especially probably focused a little bit too much on the Lonzo injury history and not enough on the Ty Jerome injury history. Because like you could argue, the Cavs got exactly what they needed out of Ty Jerome last year, and then they got out of the Ty Jerome business at the right time. Because it was the first time ever in Ty Jerome’s NBA career that he had played anything approaching a full season. And that’s great. Legitimately happy for Ty Jerome as like a person that he got. I mean, it’s not like, you know, you’re Tim Ife Mozov type of payday or LU all day type of payday. But like, he got a payday. He set himself up well for the future. And when he comes back from this calf stream with Memphis, Memphis needs a lot of ball handling help too. He can do more to. To advance his career. So that’s. That’s part of this equation too, with Isaac. Same way it’s not a coincidence that the Cav bench has fallen off now that they’ve lost Ty Jerome. I don’t think it’s coincidence the Cavs defense started the year slow. Lies is gone. From a schematic standpoint, it’s pretty simple. This dude was your point of attack defender and he made life a lot harder. Like the. The scheme has always been rely heavily on the bigs. It makes the job of the players who are going to be attacked the most even easier. Makes their job even easier. When you have someone who you can pass the buck to and reliably just say, hey, Isaac’s got this guy. That guy might score some points, but Isaac gonna make him work for it. Isaac’s never going to be, you’re never going to be wondering where he is on a defensive possession. More of the defensive responsibility is going to fall on guys like Darius Garland and Donovan Mitchell and Craig Porter Jr. Just these, these guys who are not Isaac Koro and that’s not necessarily a knock against Isaac Coro is a top notch defender in this league. I also think the same way that sharing the ball, that kind of energy is contagious on offense. I think when the Cavs were out there and they would see Az Kokoro defending his tail off possession after possession, they’d look around be like, well man, I gotta, I gotta raise my energy because this guy’s bringing it. Would we say there’s a perimeter guy depending I guess how you classify Dean Wade. Is he a perimeter guy? Perimeter guy who derives his identity, his basketball identity from playing defense? I would say no.
Ethan Sands: Jaylon Tyson.
Chris Fedor: I mean like that’s not ingrained in, in Jalen. That’s not who he’s been throughout the course of his career. Like he came to the Cavs with an understanding and, and his teammates and, and the coaching staff have helped him understand this. Like hey, if you want minutes, if you want, if you want an opportunity here, you’ve got to do the role player type things. But was that ingrained in him the way that it was Isaac? No, like Isaac came into the NBA with a reputation as a defensive first player. He was drafted in the top five because of his defense. The numbers, the impact numbers on defense while he was at Auburn. The impact numbers when he was guarding in isolation situations, the impact numbers when he was guarding pick and rolls and stuff like that. That was always Isaac. That was always going to be his DNA. And Jaylon Tyson has had to find that he’s had to morph into that. And I give him a lot of credit because that’s not easy to do. A lot of guys say, hey, I want to do all these role player things. I want to do whatever it takes to get consistent playing time, consistent opportunities, but they’re not able to do that because it’s not best for them. He has found a way to do all of those things, make an impact, that kind of way, and then provide other things on the offensive end as they continue to give him more and more leeway at that end of the floor, too.
Jimmy Watkins: The other thing is, Lonzo Ball is another guy you could point to and say he takes a lot of pride in his defense. Well, the difference maker. But with Lonzo Ball was supposed to be okay. Yeah, he does that and he spaces the floor and he’s shooting worse than Asia Kakoro. Isn’t it ironic that we used to have all these conversations about, well, Isaac could just get his attempt suck, you know, that might make teams with Lonzo Ball, everyone’s like, whoa, whoa, attempts down, please stop, Please, please stop shooting.
Ethan Sands: Yeah. And to get back to the front office point about this, right, like, these are moves that the front office had to make, and one of the biggest ones was acquiring Lonzo Ball with the thought that he could do a little bit of the Ty Jerome stuff and he could also do a little bit of the Isaac Okoro stuff. And to your point, Jimmy, to this point in the season, that hasn’t been the necessity of what the chasm needed from lines of ball or his production hasn’t had that kind of value on both ends of the floor. Obviously, his defense has been there in spurts, but it’s more of a chaser role than it is as a point of attack defender. Then you also look at the offensive end. It’s the offensive transition that he’s creating and then not getting downhill as Ty Jerome did, to create from the painted area or not making shots like Ty Jerome did. So it’s this mix and match, and the Cavs are starting to try and figure out how to alleviate the pressures that are created from the absences of these players of Todd Jerome and Isaac Okoro. And of course, we talked about Jaylon Tyson stepping into that similar role of Isaac Okoro. Obviously, Jaylon Tyson is not there yet to be a quote unquote, defensive stopper as the way that Isaac Okoro was. But for Kobe Altman and the front office of the Cleveland Cavaliers to draft Jaylon Tyson and then know that he was going to be able to mold himself or have the thought process and the wherewithal to have the conversations ahead of time to give him an identity of his role that’s helpful and for him to be able to step into this perspective is extremely important. And then when you look at the other hand of the ball of Ty Jerome, I think we’ve talked about this on recent podcasts, that the players that are in this category of potential, of doing that are also players at the front office went and found undrafted. Craig Porter Jr. Is a player that comes to mind when it comes to the creation off the bench for the Cavs with the ball in his hands, getting to his spots and also being able to facilitate when it’s called upon. But then DeAndre Hunter is a big question mark when it comes to how the Cavs are going to utilize him. If it comes to full health and if it’s going to be off the bench, if it’s going to be in the starting lineup, what is the best production for him? And to me, it seems like him being off the bench kind of answers the questions of the second unit, of what Ty Jerome was doing, allowing him to have that kind of role of hey, you can just do whatever you want with the ball because we trust you in that offensive production role to go get a bucket at any given moment. And the front office deserves credit for being able to find these pieces. Now it’s on Kenny Atkinson to maneuver them a way that fits this team best.
Chris Fedor: Yeah, I mean, I think that’s the bigger point. And I was having a conversation with a member of the Cavs front office yesterday over the phone and we were talking about the depth that they’ve built with this roster and how they fortified the back end of it. And the point that he was saying is that there are probably only two guys on this roster that there’s an uncomfortable feeling going to in any kind of situation. And it’s Luke Travers and Chris Livingston and both those guys are on two way contracts. So what do you expect? I mean, the majority of teams around the NBA, if they have to play their two way guys, the last two guys on the roster, it probably gets a little bit uncomfortable. Unless you’re Oklahoma City and you’re just a cheat code. And they’ve done that and they’ve done that through the draft, they’ve done that through the G League draft. They’ve done that through really, really good scouting, smart maneuvering and trades. And when you’re a team like the Cavs and you’re the only team in the NBA in the second apron and you’ve got all these restrictions and these limitations. You have to find cheap help. You have to find cheap playable help. And I think that’s what it comes down to. They got 13 guys that they could play on any given night, maybe 14. That’s a really, really good place to be. And that points to Kobe, Altman, Mike Gansey, Brandon Weems, Jason Hillman, John Nichols, all of their work that has been going on behind the scenes to build up this roster. And even with the tie to Rome point, like they knew that they were going to have to make an uncomfortable decision on Ty from a financial perspective. But it’s not like his replacement was Kevin Pangos or something. Remember him couple of years ago who they had to bring from overseas and he was just completely unplayable. He was a nothing from NBA standards. Craig Porter Jr. Can play. Craig Porter Jr. Is somebody who, you know, we’ve been talking about. Does he deserve more playing time? Does he deserve a bigger opportunity? So he’s not tie. Craig Porter Jr’s not tie. He can’t do the tie related things. But based on the situation that they were in, having somebody like Craig who is at least playable, to fill that kind of role in that position is a coup for this front office. And that’s what it takes. When you’re this kind of team with this kind of salary cap situation, with all these bloated contracts and you have this top heavy roster, what can you do at the back end of the roster? What can you do with guy number 9, 10, 11, 12, 13? And all of those guys, some more playable than others, certainly, some better than others, certainly because there are levels to this in the NBA. But to have this kind of roster where there are 13 or 14 playable guys, that speaks to the depth, that speaks to all of the other work that they’ve done to build this roster. And so many people are going to focus on Donovan and Evan and Jarrett and Darius, the core four and then the other high priced guys right below that. But to get Dean Wade, who is playing the fifth most minutes I believe of anybody on this roster on the contract that he’s on and that being a player development success story, Jalen Tyson going from 453 total minutes as a rookie to to one of the most utilized and effective players in the first 25 games, that’s scouting, that’s player development. Those are the kinds of things that this organization is going to have to continue to do to kind of separate themselves, especially with this second apron reality.
Jimmy Watkins: And I know all of these are are small wins, second round picks, undrafted guys found money essentially and those guys aren’t probably going to ever be the difference in you winning a championship, but they can, they can certainly help you get there. One of the big lessons we took from the playoffs last year is that rosters, you go deeper into your roster now in the playoffs this year the pace is only increasing. Only more teams are trying to mimic the paces and pressures, the pressure, the ball a whole lot. Having more playable guys, having more playable guys who can dribble, pass and shoot. There’s like this rush to say well they’ll. Because the Rockets grab a bunch of offensive rebounds with small balls. Dead. Small ball’s dead. Small ball’s not dead. I think it’s just more skill ball now. And however you can find skill, if you can find big skill. No one was ever not looking for big skill like it just happened to be that for a long time. For most of the time I still think this is mostly true. The more skilled players are the smaller ones and you prioritize skill over anything else. Now we’re finding more big guys who can do more stuff that could change the equation as we, you know, basketball already pre select, self selects for tall people, right? Make maybe that’s where it’s going. We’re just going to have a bunch of, bunch of wembies out there looking like they in one street ball trying to cross each other over and blocking each other’s shots back and forth, right. I don’t know. But these are the lifeblood of like contention windows, extending contention windows. These are the moves when you’re. When your roster construction avenues become constricted. You have to hit singles on pitches outside of the zone. You don’t have to swing big. The smaller advantages become more important. And we’re going to get into the survey here. I think that’s part of the reason why other front offices think so highly of the Caps because it’s one of the hardest things to do is to find a diamond in the rough that other people don’t see and turn them into a legitimate NBA rotation player.
Ethan Sands: You got into that point a little bit there, Jimmy. About this survey that The Athletic canvassed 36 executives across the league which entails presidents, general managers, VPs and assistant GMs to rank the NBA’s top front offices. And the Cleveland Cavaliers last season when this survey came out were ranked eighth. This season they are sixth on the list. They received 50 total points, two second place votes and appeared on 14 ballots. So I just Want to read a little bit of what some of these executives around the league have been saying about the Cleveland Cavaliers? First one says in a variety of regards, they’re really good. What Cleveland has done with the back end of their roster in terms of talent identification is really impressive. Beyond the stars, look at the guys who they have grown internally who have been widely available. Again, as we mentioned on this podcast, Dean Wade, Sam Merrill, Jaylon Tyson, who I believe could be in the most improved player of the year conversation. That’s a dynamic that we’re continuously exploring for this season, but also just the minute loads and the contracts that have been dished out for these kinds of players. Obviously Chris ran through the management of the Cleveland Cavaliers, but the credits that the Athletic gives to the Cavs are the trade from Donovan Mitchell has more than paid off despite the steep price. Jared Allen being an ancillary part of the James Harden trade, Evan Mobley being selected number three overall in the 2021 draft. Obviously Ty Jerome, who we’ve spoken heavily of on today’s podcast, nearly won the sixth man of the Year last season. Sam Merrill was the last Pick in the 2020 draft, but he found a home in the league, signing a $38 million extension in June. And Isaac Okuro in the Lonzo Ball trade, as we mentioned. So there are five teams that stand above the Cleveland Cavaliers due to the survey. The fifth ranked is Indiana Pacers, the fourth is the Miami Heat, the third is the Houston Rockets, the second is the Boston Celtics, and the first is the Oklahoma City Thunder. And just a little side note for those tuning into the games of tonight, the Oklahoma City Thunder and the Phoenix Suns matched up in the quarterfinals of the NBA cup tonight. And the OKC Thunder are now 24 and won and defeated the Phoenix Suns 138 to 89 in that contest, which was absolutely ridiculous. So guys, obviously it’s a testament to the Cavs getting bumped up in this survey from 8 to 6. It kind of showcases how the league executives viewed the moves that they made this off season. Obviously, as we mentioned, the Lonzo Ball trade, sending Isaac Okuro to Chicago, maintaining Sam Merrill instead of keeping tied to Rowan, Jaylon Tyson’s emergence, all these things. What do you think about where the Cavs rank in this survey and the teams above them?
Chris Fedor: I think it’s probably right. I don’t look at any of those teams in in front of the Cavs and say no, no, they should be lower than the Cavs, or boy, they’re a bunch of idiots and they don’t deserve the ranking that they have. Oklahoma City speaks for itself. Are you kidding me? It’s maybe the best team in NBA history. And there’s more that they can get out of that team. They haven’t had their starting five for a single game, their projected starting five, not once. Their former lottery pick is sidelined all season long. They haven’t even explored the depths of. Of what he could potentially bring to that franchise. And then they’ve got an unprotected pick coming from the Los Angeles Clippers, who are just a complete nutter mess with Chunos. Could it be a top five pick maybe.
Chris Fedor: That specifically has the league in a panic. And oh, by the way, they could have Utah’s pick. They could have the 76ers pick. So they have a bunch of ways to continue to improve their roster coming to them. And then next year they’ve got multiple picks the year after that. It’s just unbelievable. It is a general manager master class in Oklahoma City. And just like it’s so funny because everybody’s been talking about, well, this is the era of parody in the NBA. Yeah, maybe two through 30. But Oklahoma City has separated themselves from everybody in the NBA from a basketball perspective. And the Thunder front office has separated itself from everybody in the NBA when it comes to all of that stuff. So we can give them number one over and over and over and over again. And I don’t think anybody’s going to have any kind of argument.
Chris Fedor: The only one that maybe possibly the Cavs should be above is Miami. Everybody always gives Miami all this credit and they make all these smart moves and they do this salary cap gymnastics and stuff that they get praised for. And they find guys like Davion Mitchell who fit the Heat culture, and they draft guys like Jaime Haquez who kind of emerges as a rookie, then tails off and then reemerges in year three and in Khalil Ware and all these different guys. So it’s not a team that is drafting number one overall in the top five. And they find a way to kind of like reimagine themselves. And they do it from a coaching perspective. And they have arguably the best coach in the NBA and Eric Spoelstra, so that probably gives them some extra points as well. And they make these smart moves. Norm Powell, brilliant move for what they gave up in order to get him really, really smart. But they also have the clunkers, like the Terry Rozier thing, which is kind of like an albatross on the organization right now because they don’t know what’s going to happen. And even before the FBI stepped in, he wasn’t doing anything. That was a terrible move from a bunch of different perspectives for Miami. So I think Miami, like Cleveland, like Indiana, like everybody other than Oklahoma City, like they have their hits and they have their misses, but they have more hits than misses. And given each situation, I can understand the love for Miami. I can understand the belief in Miami’s front office.
Chris Fedor: But that would be the one. If you’re trying to bump the Cavs up, you always have to move somebody down. I’d probably look at the potential of moving Miami down for, for, for a raise of Cleveland.
Jimmy Watkins: This list and it’s just a list is a nice little touch grasp moment for the fan base. Everyone’s so worked up in the disappointment that has been these first 25 games and rightfully so. They, this team should be way better. And Ethan and I talked about it yesterday, like it’s a lot of roll out the ball and we think we can just, we can just win and that’s frustrating to watch. And you had higher expectations coming out and particularly the way they disappointed in the playoffs you expected. Maybe if you’re a fan, maybe they come out with a little vengeance. Like show me something you’re showing, they’re showing you not a whole lot. I get that. To take stock of the, the big picture, it’s like I feel like Kobe Altman after another second round playoff exit right now. But to take stock of the bigger picture, it’s, it’s very impressive to see where they, where they’ve come. Evan Moby home run draft pick Darius Garland home run draft pick DeAndre Hunter trade good. I mean he hasn’t been great this year but I still, I still player in players out like kind of a no brainer even at the time. Still today Jalen Tyson draft and develop year two popping okay. I’m a little more interested on like the, the whole idea that the Donovan Mitchell trade has been a smashing success like from where they were to where they are now. It has sended them multiple tiers in the, in the contention, contention conversation. Of course I get that but is not is the point of one of those trades not to like get close to winning something if not win something and they haven’t gotten close to winning anything. That’s not Donovan’s fault. The Utah Jazz are certainly not making the Cavs feel the pain of this trade by any means. And it’s kind of when you have, you have a strong young core and a star becomes available. It’s not a no brainer when you’re a small market team because you don’t know that the guy’s going to resign here and the big win of the trade is getting him to resign. Not necessarily the trade itself, but like talent in, talent out. It’s not like that’s that part of it wasn’t a risk. But I think the rest of it, the way the Cavs have endured without draft picks, without draft capital, the way they’ve built around this roster and reimagined like on the edges like okay, the first year of the Donovan Mitchell trade, JB Bickerstaff couldn’t find like six playable players. We realized real quickly how thin that roster was. To go from that then you and I understand that the draft picks were traded like years and years in advance. But like to go from that after you’ve already shipped out a bunch of draft picks and then still retool and now have one of the deepest rosters in the NBA, that’s super freaking impressive. And I think it should also even if this season goes off the rails and you know the Cavs never find their footing in the regular season, they disappoint in the playoffs again. I think it should also give people confidence that whatever shakeup might lie on the other end of that. Like you, you can trust the people in charge here to make some smart moves if the those moves have to be made. Right. Like Kobe Altman’s been taking smart educated guesses on guys for like starting with like Jared Allen all the way back in the 202021 season.
Jimmy Watkins: Like Jared Allen’s profile has risen considerably since being Cleveland. Of course he’s on a better team, but he has contributed a ton to winning. He may and he may end up being the casualty in all in all this and having to be the guy, the core four who gets cut out. But he, his profile has risen considerably. And again, I’ll go back to the point. The back end of the roster stuff I kind of feel like with NBA players and NBA executives in this case, the people are impressed by the things that they have hard time doing and what the Cavs have done with Sam Merrill and Dean Wade. Ty Jerome counts too. Ty Jerome was a first round pick, but he was getting passed around a bunch. Other teams were having trouble figuring out how to maximize him. Kenny deserves some credit for this too. But like the Cavs turned him into a fricking awards ballot guy.
Ethan Sands: Right?
Jimmy Watkins: So doing that over and over and over again then a lot by the way a lot of teams would look. Take that Ty drone situation. Okay, we did it. You gotta lock them down. The Cavs made another risk within that flyer and said, actually, we like this other second round pick, this other found money that we have a little better. We’re gonna give Sam Merrill the money. And that’s worked out that part of their evaluation. Again, I know it’s small victories, but those small victories are very hard to come by, and the Cavs produce them consistently.
Chris Fedor: I think the other point is this. If the Cavs have an appetite eventually for. For shaking up their roster and. And right now I get no sense that they do, that they want to see this thing through, that they believe in this roster. What does it look like when Max Struse gets back? What does it look like when they’re climbing close to full strength? So I do not sense an appetite for. For shaking up the roster during the season. Maybe if they have another playoff flame out, how it happens, they reevaluate in the off season. But. But like if they go that direction and this is a big if, and this is just down the road, it’s not like their guys are untradeable. The guys that they have that they would look to potentially offload, to bring in different fitting pieces, to bring in different style players, to maybe reset the books a little bit. Teams around the NBA are going to want those guys. Teams around the NBA are going to value those guys. Teams around the NBA would value Darius Garland, there’s no doubt about that. Same thing when it comes to Jared Allen. And then if you keep going lower and lower with this roster.
Chris Fedor: DeAndre Hunter, he would have value around the NBA for the right team in the right situation. Max Struse, for the right team in the right situation would have value as well. So even some of these other guys that aren’t members of the core four that the Cavs could potentially look at down the road trying to offload those guys, it’s not like no team in the NBA would take them. Those guys have value too. And I know that it’s the NBA and there’s really no such thing as a tradable or an untradable contract because guys just get moved all the time. But some are easier to trade than others. Some you have to attach assets to just to move off of them and stuff like that. And in the situation that they’re in, they don’t have any of those kinds of albatross like contracts. I mean, max Druce makes $15 million. That’s right. That’s the kind of player that he is. That’s the kind of money that a player like him commands. So like all of these things, for all of this conversation that people have about, you know, if the trade deadline rolls around, there’s nothing that the Cavs can do. They have no flexibility. Yeah, they’re limited. Yeah, there are restrictions on the things that they can do based on being the only second apron team, but it just requires them to get a little bit creative. And I do think that they have enough tradable assets. Like they don’t have these lottery picks. They’re not, they’re not like Oklahoma City, where they just like can put together these draft picks that become centerpiece of blockbuster type trades. If they have that kind of appetite to do that, they certainly don’t have a situation like the San Antonio spurs that if they want to go whale hunting, they can dangle Dylan Harper and Stefan Castle and some of these young players, like, that’s not how the Cavs are built. But in saying that they have other tradable commodities, ones that are more like NBA ready to help some of these other teams, and none that teams are looking at saying, nah, you gotta attach a draft pick or two draft picks or something along those lines just to get off that guy’s money.
Jimmy Watkins: If the Cavs really need it, like if they needed draft picks, they get some draft picks by moving off some of these guys. And it is, it is actually amazing to me that I hadn’t really clocked me until you said it, Chris. There’s not really a bad contract on the stuff. Now, the part of that is when you make good decisions in the draft, you reward is easy decisions on the back end. But there wasn’t a ton of negotiation for the Evan Mobley and Darrow’s Garland extensions. It’s just like, you guys want to sign this? Yes. Okay, here we go. We did it. I think Darius Garland’s next extension. That’d be an interesting conversation. I think Donovan Mitchell’s next extension. How. How many years do you go for a guard? A sub six, three guard, you know, crossing the 30 year threshold. 30, 30 years old threshold. That’s an interesting conversation. But good roster decisions tend to stack on one another because once you. Once you make a couple, it makes the others easier to fill in. And then you obviously also build confidence with how you’re doing this stuff. And you see that, you see that with the Cavs.
Ethan Sands: Well, to that point, about the contracts, Jimmy, we understand that if the Cavs don’t get to where they want to go this season because of the roster that they constructed, that changes will likely happen, and that’s in part because of how Donovan Mitchell’s contract is being looked at. And having the 10th year of accrued service coming up for him, and then that contract after that could be a super max deal, especially if he’s in these MVP conversations this season. I think you look at that contract and you try to build around it or plan for the future, and that’s something that this front office has been doing well. And I think the most stressful portion of this is coming down the pipeline. And it’s going to be interesting to see how the Cleveland Cavaliers front office and coaching staff decide to maintain or move on from some of these players that they built around over the past few years.
Chris Fedor: Well, they can’t move on from Donovan until they have somebody that’s ready to be Donovan. Like Donovan’s ready to win a championship. Everybody understands that. That’s the timeline of this team. The hope was that Evan Mobley was going to be on that same timeline. And I think there are legitimate questions. Geez, here we go again. I said this in the off season and got killed for it, but here we go again. I think we’re still here in December, 25 games in, and I think the questions that existed in the aftermath of the playoff loss against Indiana still exist right now. Is Darius Garland ready to win a championship? Is Evan Mobley ready to win a championship? Are they on that same timeline as Donovan Mitchell in terms of their basketball maturity, in terms of how much their game has progressed, in terms of being adjusted to what the game is right now in the NBA, all of those different things, and until. Until the Cavs feel like there’s somebody else that. That can be their Donovan Mitchell, until Evan is ready to be their Donovan Mitchell, and maybe he’s never ready to be their Donovan Mitchell until Darius is ready to be their Donovan Mitchell? It makes. Keeping Donovan. I think the decision becomes different than what ultimately a lot of people felt like it was going to be into the future. Like, I think a lot of people looked at it and said, okay, there’s going to be this natural progression of this organization where Donovan kind of lays the blueprint, he does the LeBron thing, and then all of a sudden, LeBron turns it over to Kyrie for a variety of factors that didn’t happen. Or in Los Angeles, where it was LeBron saying, All right, eventually, I’m going to turn it over to AD for a variety of factors that didn’t happen. Happen. But I think a lot of people looked at the Cav situation and said, okay, when Donovan gets to close to 30, when he’s on the wrong side of 30, when his body starts breaking down a little bit and his game has to evolve a little bit, that’s going to be fine. Because the natural progression is, here’s the torch, Evan, this is your team now. You’re the man. Or here’s the torch, Darius, this is your team now, you’re the man. And I think that becomes a little bit more complicated than a lot of people assumed that it was going to be. And even if that means that at the time, the Cavs have to, quote, unquote, overpay for Donovan Mitchell, that that might be something that they have to do because the other guys just aren’t ready for that level of responsibility.
Ethan Sands: And with all that being said, that’ll wrap up today’s episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. But remember to become a Cavs insider and interact with Chris, me and Jimmy by subscribing to subtext. Sign up for a 14 day free trial or visit cleveland.comcavs and click on the blue bar at the top of the page. If you don’t like it, that’s fine. All your to do is text the word stop. It’s easy, but we can tell you that the people who signed up stick around because this is the best way to get insider coverage on the Cavs from me, Chris and Jimmy. This isn’t just our podcast, it’s your podcast. And the only way to have your voice heard is through subtext. Y’ all be safe. We out.