CLEVELAND, Ohio — In this episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast, Ethan Sands and Jimmy Watkins are joined by The Athletic’s Joel Lorenzi for a wide-ranging NBA conversation that quickly turns into a reality check for the Cavs.
Takeaways:
1. Why a Writer Would Leave a Budding Dynasty
Joel Lorenzi explained his challenging decision to leave his post covering the budding OKC Thunder dynasty to cover the struggling Chicago Bulls. The move was primarily driven by career growth, the opportunity to join The Athletic and learn from legendary writers, the prestige of The New York Times’ ownership, and the personal draw of returning home. While he acknowledged leaving a historically great team and untapped stories behind, Lorenzi prioritized his long-term development as a writer and the chance to surround himself with industry titans, illustrating the complex career calculations that exist even within sports media.
2. The “OKC Way” Is a Masterclass in Team Building
The podcast detailed the Oklahoma City Thunder’s organizational success, rooted in a top-down philosophy from GM Sam Presti that emulates the San Antonio Spurs model. A key pillar is their “farm system” approach, where they groom talent in-house, from G League prospects to head coaches like Mark Daigneault. They have consistently found value late in the draft (Aaron Wiggins, 55th pick) and with undrafted players (Lu Dort). This calculated, patient strategy was born from the necessity of being a small-market team that cannot attract top free agents, proving that building a culture and maximizing internal resources is a viable path to contention.
3. The Foundational Difference Between the Cavs and Thunder
A critical distinction was drawn between the roster construction of the Cavaliers and the Thunder. While both are young teams built around a superstar, the Thunder acquired their star (Shai Gilgeous-Alexander) in a trade that also netted them a historic haul of draft picks. Conversely, the Cavaliers had to trade their entire arsenal of future picks to acquire their star, Donovan Mitchell. This single difference gives OKC immense long-term flexibility and an asset advantage that Cleveland lacks, creating what Watkins called “NBA nihilism” for other teams trying to compete.
4. Evan Mobley’s Stagnation Is Central to the Cavs’ Ceiling
A recurring theme was the stalled offensive development of Evan Mobley, who was expected to be the Cavaliers’ primary “ceiling raiser.” The panel agreed that for the Cavs’ core to work, Mobley needed to make a significant leap as a scorer, but he has not yet realized that potential. Lorenzi articulated it as Mobley being an “87 overall” player when the team needed him to be a “94 overall” by now, comparing his ratings on NBA 2K. This stagnation lowers the team’s margin for error and places a hard cap on their championship aspirations, as they lack the offensive firepower to overcome their structural limitations.
5. A Lack of Identity Is Crippling the Cavaliers
The discussion emphasized the importance of a team’s identity, highlighting OKC’s clear, defense-first culture as a bedrock of their success. In contrast, the Cavaliers currently lack a discernible identity. They were once a great defensive team, but that has slipped, and their offense remains inconsistent. The Bulls’ failed attempt to create a defensive identity by simply adding one player (Isaac Okoro) was used as an example of how difficult it is to forge one. Without a foundational style of play to fall back on, the Cavs appear lost and unable to consistently perform, especially when facing injuries or adversity.
6. Player Comparisons Reveal a Clear Talent and Fit Gap
Direct comparisons between players on the Cavs and Thunder exposed a significant talent disparity. Jalen Williams of OKC was described as a far superior two-way player to Darius Garland, who becomes a liability if he isn’t performing at an All-Star level offensively. Furthermore, the discussion around the frontcourt highlighted how Isaiah Hartenstein is a perfect screening and passing partner for Shai, while the Evan Mobley-Jarrett Allen pairing in Cleveland has unresolved issues, primarily Mobley’s lack of offensive assertion. These individual mismatches demonstrate that the Cavs’ roster, while talented, is a tier below OKC’s in key areas.
7. The Challenge of Accountability in a Player-Led League
The podcast explored the difficult dynamic of holding star players accountable. Bulls coach Billy Donovan can be blunt about his team’s reality because he coaches younger, less-established players. In contrast, Cavs coach Kenny Atkinson admitted he can only “rip them as much as you can rip anybody in the NBA,” acknowledging the power that stars like Donovan Mitchell and Evan Mobley wield. This tiptoeing around star players makes it difficult to address chronic issues like poor effort and basic mistakes, suggesting that a lack of internal motivation and player-led accountability is a major hurdle for the team.
8. The Eastern Conference Bar Has Been Raised
The panel asserted that the Cavaliers are no longer a presumptive top team in the East. They argued that teams like the New York Knicks and Detroit Pistons have built stronger cultures and identities. Lorenzi controversially but firmly stated that Detroit’s Cade Cunningham has the potential to rise to Donovan Mitchell’s level in a playoff setting, especially given the “real culture” being built there. This recalibration of the East’s hierarchy suggests the Cavs have not only failed to meet expectations but have also been lapped by other ascending teams.
9. Distinguishing a “Contender” from a “Dynasty”
Joel Lorenzi offered a crucial clarification on the NBA landscape: the OKC Thunder haven’t changed the definition of a “contender,” but they have provided a clear look at the ingredients for a modern “dynasty.” Teams like the Denver Nuggets or Houston Rockets can be considered contenders, capable of winning a championship with the right breaks. However, the Thunder are operating on another level entirely, with a combination of elite talent, a deep roster, an incredible asset base, and a strong culture that positions them for sustained dominance over several years.
10. Final Verdict: The Cavs Are Not a Championship Team
The definitive conclusion from the podcast is that the Cleveland Cavaliers, as currently constructed, are not a legitimate championship contender. The panel agreed that their ceiling might be a competitive push to the conference finals, but even that would require significant luck and other top teams in the East faltering. They are considered a tier or two below true contenders like OKC and Denver. The team’s path forward is clouded by fundamental issues in player development (Mobley), a lack of identity, and questions about accountability that must be resolved before they can be considered in the a-league’s elite.
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Transcript
NOTE: This transcript was generated by artificial intelligence and could contain misspellings and errors.
Ethan Sands: What up Cavs Nation? I’m your host, Ethan Sands, and I’m back with another episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. And joining me today, we have a very special guest, but alongside him, you know him, you’ll love him. Jimmy Watkins, cleveland.com columnist and also today on the Wide and Gold Talk podcast, we welcome a voice in basketball coverage that renders the game down to its purest form. Art. Joel Lorenzi covers his hometown Chicago Bulls by approaching his craft the same way he approaches the game when he steps on the floor himself. Patience, precision, and timing that makes the whole thing feel inevitable. And in hindsight, his writing gives the texture, context, and human rhythms beneath the box score. That’s why his work always feels like more than a recap. It feels like the music, where every word and flow is with purpose. Prior to joining the Athletic, Joel spent two seasons chronicling the rise of the Oklahoma City Thunder for the Oklahomans, immersing himself in a franchise narrative that that transition from promising to a champion before the nation’s eyes. He’s also a graduate of the University of Missouri and the west side of Chicago native. And if you don’t believe me about his writing chops, he’s the recipient of the 2023 U.S. basketball Writers Association Rising Star Award. Joelle writes as he thinks with clarity and curiosity, with respect for complexity, and with an eye for the stories that linger longer than the buzzer sounds. Now welcome in Joel Lorenzi to the Wine and Gold Talk podcast.
Joel Lorenzi: Well, good God, I don’t think I’ll ever need another intro again. I’m going to. I’m just going to record that and play it on every podcast I go for. And you could tell as that went on, Jimmy was just unimpressed. Dude, Jimmy’s like, get this over with, bro.
Jimmy Watkins: You don’t think that dude’s head looks big enough in that window right now? Come on now.
Joel Lorenzi: Oh, geez.
Jimmy Watkins: We don’t need to do more.
Joel Lorenzi: I grew my hair out, that’s all.
Ethan Sands: Hey, man, we appreciate you coming on. And I want to, as you mentioned, you guys got a little history there. You already josing a little bit. But before we dive into the Chicago Bulls or OKC or the Cleveland Cavaliers and all of its basketball layers, Joel and Jimmy did not meet in an NBA arena. They crossed paths in Nebraska back when Jimmy was at the Omaha World Herald and Joel was on the come up as well and grinding through those early career reps that shape how you see this industry. So I want to start there not with the wins or the losses. But with that moment. Jimmy, what do you remember about first meeting Joel back in Omaha?
Jimmy Watkins: I remember I was thinking about this today. I remember. I don’t know if it was your first day or what, but we went to that restaurant where they had the. The Doug McDermott burger that had like peanut butter spot.
Joel Lorenzi: Yeah. On the corner right there with the.
Jimmy Watkins: Peanut butter and jelly on it, right by the newsroom.
Joel Lorenzi: And I think despicable menu.
Jimmy Watkins: I don’t know if it was that day or I think one of the first podcasts we did when Joel was covering Creighton, I was covering Nebraska basketball. Different kind of despicable actually kind of turned around Shout out Fred. That day we talked on that podcast about the Cavs trading for Donovan Mitchell. That was the day that happened. So there’s a little serendipity for you, but I think. I don’t know what I remember. We were both kind of skeptical of our surroundings. I mean, particularly Joelle. We didn’t know I’d been there for probably like a year or so. At that time, we were both just people unfamiliar with our surroundings who. Looking for someone who liked the same stuff and, you know, love hoop and turn out. We like the same music and we’ve. We found connection through that. I mean, and obviously the. The craft, right? Like when you. When you do this job, it takes you to so many different places that you wouldn’t expect. You kind of just have to follow it wherever you go. But the cool part about that, you go in there, like, kind of uncertain. You don’t know who you’re going to run into. But what you find out is that most of the people you find along the way are people who are chasing the exact same thing you do. And that is a very specific type of connection that is hard to find in the everyday, is what I would say.
Joel Lorenzi: I don’t even remember the whole Donovan trade at the time, but it actually makes sense talking about it. I mean, we were just so. We tried to still keep such a connection to, you know, the. The league and those games, even though it was so hard being immersed on our college beach. I mean, you know, like, when you’re on a beat, that beat is your life, dude. And I remember thinking like, that was my first job out of college, covering Creighton. I was there that one season. Jimmy actually jumped ship halfway through the year or whatever it was. He didn’t stay the whole season, which is fine. He had been there, he had let me. But I just remember thinking college basketball was like the world to Me. Once you leave that job, you’re like, that’s like such a fragment of the world. You can’t even fathom it at the time. But at the time when I was there, when you were, that was my world. That was everything, right? Like that, that little downtown office. I’ve never gone into the newsroom as much as I did when I was working that job with you. And it used to be the highlight of my week, coming in to do the pod. That little studio had its Midwest office charm to it, these rotating producers. It was fun.
Jimmy Watkins: We had the basketball in there. We would just be dribbling around the office.
Joel Lorenzi: Literally just dribbling around the office. Like, you can argue that was as pure as this game was for me. Was that. That job just. I mean, I was a kid, for real, dude. Like, it was just. It was an innocence to it. We would just come in and talk. Coop. It was. It was super dope. And then, like you said, like, the unfamiliarity, like being in Nebraska, like, a lot of nights I was staring out my window, feeling like Bruce Wayne or something, you know, like, I’m like, I’m waiting on the next gig to show up. A lot of times we were, like, plotting our way out because, you know, we were dream chasers, right? So we’re like, how are we going to turn this? Who’s even reading? How are we going to turn this into careers? And you did it before me. And I mean, it’s just crazy. Like, look. Look at where we are now. That was only, what, three years ago? Four years ago. Like, it’s. It’s crazy to look at how the time pass.
Jimmy Watkins: Yeah, I want to. I want to shout out Sam McEwen. He’s a good boss.
Joel Lorenzi: Sam McEwen.
Jimmy Watkins: Yes, a lot of us.
Joel Lorenzi: Still doing.
Jimmy Watkins: Yes, a lot of us. I know, I know. Yes, a lot of us. But I remember still to this day sometimes I feel like, first of all, he’s like. He’s a columnist over there. He’s writing all the time. He’s also the sports editor. And we would have, like, me, Joel and him would have, like, three way editing sessions in the newsroom, the likes of which I don’t think I’ve experienced before or since.
Joel Lorenzi: He.
Jimmy Watkins: He really went line by line with us. So he. He definitely made us better. I do want to. I do want to just address one grievance that I have with Joel before we get really started, and that is the belt that I lent you over the summer when you stopped napj.
Joel Lorenzi: I was in the airport this Morning when I landed and I realized, damn, I forgot to pack a belt. And not only did I forget to pack my usual black belt, I can’t. For months, I have not been able to find the brown belt that you.
Jimmy Watkins: I say goodbye to it when I. Let me. Let me set the stage for you, actually, because it’s kind of crazy. So Joel’s coming through Cleveland. I had text him like the week before, like, hey, like, let me know what you’re doing. We’ll try to catch up if it’s possible. And what he ends up doing, text me even the night before, the morning of like, hey, I need a belt. You got a belt? And I was like, yeah, I got a belt. He’s like, what kind of belt? He asked me to send a picture of this belt. I was like, if you need a belt, you’re just getting a belt. You’re getting what I got. I gave him what I had.
Joel Lorenzi: Why? Didn’t want a cowboy belt or something? Knowing you, I don’t know what you got in your clothes.
Jimmy Watkins: It was enough. It was enough. You know me better than to know I. I own a cowboy belt. He didn’t even come up to my door. He pulls up in a white minivan Uber, and it’s like a. An action movie scene where I’m like tossing him a gun across the window. Except this sliding door slid open. He reached out for the belt. I gave him the belt. I never saw it again. I never will.
Joel Lorenzi: That’s how we work, man.
Ethan Sands: Never will is crazy. And I want to get into Joel. You mentioned Nebraska being unfamiliar and just being the start of your career. When you think back to those Nebraska days now, how much of that version of yourself still shows up in the way you approach the job?
Joel Lorenzi: Well, I think I’ve grown so much, honestly. Like, I thought I. I remember, like, being at Mizzou. I started writing my senior year and I remember, like, not even knowing what a feature was. And then when I got to. When I was in Nebraska, like, by the end of my first season, I’m like, I thought I knew what a feature was and I thought I had a formula. And I realized soon after there is no formula. There’s so much writing and so many different approaches to the craft out there. I’m still trying to find the way of profiling and a lot of it’s access, obviously.
Ethan Sands: Right.
Joel Lorenzi: Which is, like, scarce these days compared to the people we looked up to and read growing up. But, you know, I think the things that remain true of who I was in Nebraska was Like, the innocence I still see in the craft. Like, this is my livelihood, which I don’t think it is for everybody. Like, I think a lot of people see it as work, or for a lot of people, it’s a hobby. This is my livelihood. Like, I really enjoy being a writer and storytelling and carrying that torch, whereas, you know, so much of the coverage is diverted from. From that. So just the craftsmanship. I haven’t lost my innocence there. Maybe you could call it being naive. I don’t know. Maybe I haven’t had that. That true scare to throw me off the path. But it’s at. At my core, I think it’s who I am as a writer. I don’t think I’ll shake that today. I have to probably shake that there’s a day I’ll probably walk away from the game. So the essence of who I was as a writer, or at least try to be at Nebraska, is those are the same principles I try to keep now.
Ethan Sands: And I think it’s interesting. You talk about the love of the game, right? You cannot have more love for the game than being in the arena you grew up watching. Right now you’re at your hometown, covering the Bulls. Can you just explain what that’s like, how that feels, and what it means to you to be in that situation so early on into your career?
Joel Lorenzi: It’s weird for me, for sure. For multiple reasons, I think. One, I grew up probably going to more Bucs games than Bulls games just because the Bulls kind of out price regular folks. I remember I started going to Bucs games when I was like, 13, and that was the year they drafted Giannis. And it was just so much easier to pay 50 bucks for my dad to get in the building. That was when they were at BMO Harris, their old. Their old place, actually see a star in the making. And then I grew up like a Laker fan, too. More than anything. I was a Kobe yard, so. But like, I was always. I mean, you from Chicago, the teams there are. They keep the city alive or barely alive, you know, depending on how they’re doing. And so, you know, like, I always kept up with the Bulls, and for most of my life, it’s been a miserable experience. You know, I didn’t. I didn’t grow up in the. In the Jordan era, right? Like, I was born after that. So everything I know about the Bulls, besides the blip that the D. Rose era was, has most blah. And so just to see that up close now and have to be objective about it, I should say get to be objective about it. It’s fascinating, man, especially coming. I’d say the other layer of it is coming from OKC the last two years and, and seeing how that franchise is running. And coming here, watching the Bulls operation up close, you’re like, again, this, it’s levels to this. And you can sort of feel how jaded the city is. Like, if I never felt it this much before, I definitely feel it now, being in the building every night.
Jimmy Watkins: Why leave a dynasty? Life is bigger than your livelihood. But why leave what you knew? I know, I know. You know enough ball to know that thing is, is heading upward and upward and upward to cover whatever’s happening with this Bulls team.
Joel Lorenzi: Yeah, man, it’s a loaded question. And you’re right. Like, at the end of the day, like, I, I’d say my livelihood was a, a big part of it. Like, isn’t, like, there were drawbacks, like, anything. Like, I, I, if I had to draw the Venn diagram out right now, like, I would say, as cool as it was to be linked as the only traveling writer for this budding dynasty and the unique opportunity that is, I always felt like the eyes weren’t there. And maybe that’s just a nationwide thing with okc. Maybe that team has yet to draw the metrics they should. I think a lot of people, networks, fans, publications have just been a step behind on what they are, like, continuously. So maybe that’s part of it. But I always felt like, hey, I think I’ll be cooking. I want to reach more people, you know, and at my Gannett paper, you know, it was kind of an issue. I liked my team, my coworkers, my editors, but I always, I kind of felt like someone to the job and me improving, which this is such a vulnerable stage for me in my career in terms of formative experiences, who I surround myself with, who my resources are. And I just felt like, you know, the Athletic was always the dream. It was less about what I had going on at OKC and more about what I thought this could be. Right? And so the Athletic was a place I dreamed to work at since I was in school. And my teammates now are Marcus Thompson, David Aldrich, Marin, Federation. Like, we got a squad. Like, that’s Sam Amick. Like, that’s scratching the surface. And so I just wanted to surround myself with people I thought could push me, force me to be better every single day, and I could lean on and, you know, people who are legends in this game and then get to a place owned by the New York Times who I thought could elevate my readership. Big market. Obviously the idea is to have more eyes. And I think I do have a. I’ve started out with a solid readership. Obviously it’s a slow burn with a team that’s bad, but I was willing to go through that to be back home and to make more money and probably grow as a reporter. But I think about OKC all the time, you know, Like, I think about what I left. Like, that wasn’t. That wasn’t easy. Like, you got to be a real sicko in terms of considering your career and loving basketball thing to be. Like, I want to make this much less money to cover the same. And I thought about it because they are historically great and I genuinely enjoyed being around their team. And I felt like I left meat on the bone. I felt like I left stories on the table, you know, so that I. I think about it all the time, for sure.
Ethan Sands: Joel, you talk about, like, organizationally it’s different from OKC and Chicago, and obviously Cleveland is different as well. But every team learns from itself. We know this is a copycat league. And when you talk about learning lessons from across the league, what do you think the NBA team should be studying from okc? Because it seems like they’re a tier above everybody else right now, not only on the floor, but organizationally as well. And what would it be about how that organization carries itself or even how the players carry themselves? Because we’ve seen they have like the. The Garden wall with interviews. We’ve seen how Shay conducts himself in interviews. Is it player based or is it top down when it comes to that organization?
Joel Lorenzi: It’s top down, but it’s a trickle effect. So much of what you see across the organization is like a directive of Sam Presti. Like, this is sort of the culture he’s built. I can go so many different directions here, but I think a lot of what teams should be mimicking is the sort of farm system they’ve created. I mean, everybody, pretty much everybody you see in the building who has a hand in their success was groomed there. Like, they’re not plucking people from LA or this and that. Like, they, they’ve groomed everybody. And this is why you look down their bench. And they don’t have like, like billboard names for assistance, say, for maybe like Chip England who was part of those historic spurs teams. But like, spurs cultures is what Sam deals in. Like, he came from that. He was in the video room back in the day, and then an assistant gm, like he worked his way through the spurs ranks. So that was, that was a given. These guys just, they groom their rotational players through the G League team and through that, those tanking years. Like, think of how many unsigned guys they have on the roster who went undrafted, I should say, or were on two ways. A.J. mitchell has punched people in the mouth and come out of nowhere. And he’s on his long list of. Aaron Wiggins was 55th pick. Lou Dort undrafted. I mean, they conjure these guys up and groom them because this is their, their culture. They made such a asset out of the G League team and the experimentation there in the farm system. Mark Dagno groomed from the G League team. They constantly send guys down there to be head coach every couple years to groom them for the bench. It’s just so calculated all around. They don’t leave any asset, they don’t leave any stone unturned as far as assets and what they can use from their resources because they have to. Like this is Oklahoma City, man. Steph Curry ain’t signing there in the summer. Giannis ain’t signing there in the summer. They know what their resources are. They know the reality. And that’s why when they were being called black eye of the league, like, they knew they had to take that route and the basketball guys gave them some fortune. They got lucky to see Shay become this unbelievable. One of the best scorers probably ever. They never thought he would feel this potential. But then you get lucky and get to draft check, you hit on Jalen Williams like they just done everything right, man. And they, they knew, they knew who they were and their resources. And it’s, it’s not even low key. Remarkable. It’s remarkable how they’ve come back from the way KD did them and the assets he, he left them, it’s sand. And everything else is directed from him. It’s a trickle down effect. The culture he’s built and it’s, it’s far more calculated than I think anybody across the league can imagine. I mean, it’s hard to replicate. A lot of teams maybe don’t have to because they’re in bigger markets, but he recognized the tools he had and, and he, he is a true sicko. He made it work.
Jimmy Watkins: I think the Cavs are trying, right? Like, you see the way they’re managing their. I mean there’s, it’s impossible, but everyone’s trying. You see the way that they’re managing their, their farm system, the way they’re pulling guys like Sam Merrill, Dean Wade out of that. Pretty consistent they’re making low, low risk bets. The main difference between the Cavs and the Thunder to me is that the Thunder got their superstar and all the draft picks at once and the Cavs had to give up all their draft picks to get the superstar.
Joel Lorenzi: Yeah.
Jimmy Watkins: So that never happens.
Joel Lorenzi: And that’s part of the luck.
Jimmy Watkins: That’s part of the luck. But it’s also, I mean like the Paul acquiring Paul George and the way they managed Paul George, the way they played up the Paul George and Kawhi. You’re not just trading for Paul George, LA Clippers, you’re trading for Paul George and Kawhi. And your price should reflect that. I mean, given assistance to Steve Ballmer for being overzealous on that type of thing. But now, now that they’re fully formed, I think that one of the big, I mean, the Cavs can’t be thinking this big right now. They need to figure out how to get back on defense first before we start talking big picture stuff. But for the fan base here and for people across the league, one of the questions that I’m thinking watching this team is like, why should anyone try, like for the Thunder, like you watch the Thunder and all the other teams around the league, I’m just like, what’s the point? Like that I legit, like the Giannis market right now is being suppressed. Giannis, top five player in the NBA teams are like, I don’t know if I want to get my assets up for that guy because I don’t even, even if we get that guy, I’m not sure we could compete with them. Have we reached NBA nihilism already with this team that is NBA champions now look even better. Chats have been making a huge leap. They haven’t even had their lineups together. And oh, by the way, they might have a top five pick next year, right?
Joel Lorenzi: Yeah. Would be remiss to not mention that. I’m glad you brought it up. It’s the foresight and understanding this cba. I mean, by the, by the time the next CBA comes around and maybe there’s enough seismic changes to maybe the Thunder might have to pivot in their strengths, which I don’t see that really happening. Like, I imagine the Thunder will have already done the league some damage by the time that comes around, but they’re understanding that this current CBA and the importance of draft picks as assets and their use of second rounders is why they’re ahead. It’s tough for anybody to stand a chance because, like some of, some of the People at my place, Sam and McNally, have made good points in that when you’ve seen previous dynasties, most recently the warriors, there was always at least a team that threatened to foil them, and teams had the urgency to, oh, well, let’s make this move to try to not pantomime the warriors, but, like, have a respectable response. And it’s hard to do that right now. Like, I think the spurs got a really good chance. I mean, you saw. I don’t want to overreact to the cup, but they got a good, young core man, and they got a dude who’s probably going to be the best player in the world sooner than later, if not just top three, which is the type of guy the dominoes fall, right? Those are the guys who lead you to the promised land. If the spurs are the. The real long competitor, the most realistic competitor, it’s going to take probably some. Some more draft luck from him or some more luck to fall in their favor with the way this core continues to grow. How. How high is the Steph Castle ceiling? How high is the Dylan Harper ceiling? The kind of luck and development that you saw, you know, with Shay, I mean, Shay has, like, one of one career trajectory and development with how that dude develop. You’re going to need that type of look if you’re the spurs. And everybody else just has to pray because anybody else who’s dealing for Giannis is giving up, like, an ungodly package, right? It, like, almost puts you on the fence of, like, are you going to be able to compete in an interim? And are you going to. You’re definitely not going to be able to compete in the long run with the kind of assets, you know, Milwaukee is going to ask for, I imagine. So it’s just going to take luck. And part of that is, like, can the Thunder stay healthy? Because the injuries are the only thing standing away, right? Like, half of Chet’s career has been bogged down by injuries. Like, is. Is that going to continue? I’m not sure it will. God forbid, these things happen, but they’re probably the only solutions to teams trying to rival them right now. I mean, if you want to nitpick, the Thunder’s biggest thing right now is, like, the decisions they’ll have to make fiscally, which I doubt they’re worried about. They got the draft picks to keep bringing cycling guys in of these different modes that are Casey and Wallace mode, Lou Dort, they’re going to have to make a decision on him pretty soon, and they have two guys of his mold who are better on the team already, probably in case in Wallace and Alex Caruso, Hardenstein, they have to make that decision. I think they should bring him back because he’s wildly important to. What that. That’s a crazy response. Hardenstein is wildly important to what Shay does, I think. But they also have the rookie who hasn’t played yet, Thomas Sorber. He’s supposed to be of that ilk. So they can keep drafting and throwing darts at the board to see who sticks and who can be sort of part of this equation. They probably are due for, like, another ball handler. It would be absurd if they lucked into a top two pick and got Darren Peterson or something. I mean, these are things we’re talking about, dude. Like, it’s. It’s insane where they are and this sort of catastrophe they. They’ve set the league up for.
Jimmy Watkins: I love Hart. I just think that he’s. Once Chet gets to where he needs to go, then you can get a lot of what they get from Hartenstein. Not a lot, but a chunk of what they get from Hartenstein for a lot less money.
Ethan Sands: Now we’re getting to the conversation of the Cavs. Like, if Evan Mobley beefs up and gets to where he gonna need. Do the Cavs need Jared Allen? I think we’re kind of having the same.
Jimmy Watkins: Except one team is trying to figure out how to get past the second round, and the other team is like, 3 Pete, 4 Pete. Where does this thing end? Like, when do we have to.
Ethan Sands: How.
Jimmy Watkins: How many championships can we win before we need to make those decisions. Decisions.
Ethan Sands: I mean, I’m not comparing.
Jimmy Watkins: No, I’m just saying. I’m just. I’m just. I’m just drawing the divide because it’s like, yes, this is where the Cavs are financially too. This. And this is where the comparison. Because the Cavs are definitely aspiring to be OKC east right now. But it’s like the comparison absolutely falls apart immediately when you think your. Your roster is more expensive than theirs and yet you haven’t accomplished. You’re still where OKC was two years ago, second round exit. And by the way, OKC figured that out in one year.
Joel Lorenzi: Yeah. And so. So this is what I’ll say on Hardenstein in either front court. And maybe there’s a through line to draw here. I think Hardenstein is wildly important to. He’s the best screener Shai’s ever had, bar none. No one comes close. Shay for as much. It seems like he’s taken another leap. I mean, he’s. He’s as efficient from three as he’s ever been. That being said, when you get in these playoff scenarios, which is really what they’re preparing for, you need to give him as many tools in the toolbox as possible. As great as he is as an ISO guy, we’ve seen teams aggressively take the ball out of his hands or put a guy at the nail who’s trying to thwart him or have box defenses to try. Teams have thrown the work to him. And I think Hart is important for two reasons. He’s his best screener, like I said. So you’re giving them different driving angles. And Lord knows Shae only needs so much of a sliver of a window to really kill you. And two, Hardenstein is their best pocket passer they have. When Shay has to get off the ball and put somebody in short roll or whatever, nobody’s better than Hardenstein. Hardenstein is such a cerebral passer at that size. Just a great, great, great fit with Shay and N. I think with where the league is, not even where it’s headed where it is. So many of these teams run double big. You need the lineup versatility to go single big with Chet, to go single big with Hart, to go double big with both to have a third big, you need these two. I don’t know if I can draw an exact through line to Cleveland, but I think you probably need two players of both Mobley and Jared Allen’s ilk. Now, the idea, and this is people’s problem with Evan Mobley, is that the scoring leap should be better, right? Like in theory, he should be a better scorer by now. That’s the only way in the aggregate because Donovan Mitchell is not Shay. Like, there’s a gap there as far as the way defenses need to treat them, probably, and the volatility and what you could do as a defense and whatever. I mean, I don’t have to speak to that too much. There’s a gap. And so where do you get that scoring in the aggregate? And it should be probably Mobley by now. But Jared, obviously you need as a sort of lob threat and vertical spacer. And Mobley should be more consistent from range by now. Should have more tools in the toolbox. People have real beef with him as a scorer and his potential there and why he hasn’t realized it. That being said, assuming he does get there, I still think you need a lob dirt next to him just for the sake of lineup versatility. But it. But it is a. I do see the issue here where Mobley should be a better scorer by now.
Ethan Sands: And you talked about it there, Joel.
Jimmy Watkins: Right.
Ethan Sands: Jared Allen is, bar none, the best screener on the Cavs. Right. And he also has the strength that Evan Mobley simply doesn’t. The size that Evan Mobley simply doesn’t. When we’re talking about physicality and weight and class and all these different things, that’s kind of what we’re, we’re talking about. And the through line there is you talking about that. This version of the NBA, multiple different teams are running two bigs. That started with Cleveland, that started when Jamie Wickerstaff was utilizing Evan. Jared Allen. Lowry Marketing was in that group as well. And I think you now see that across the league where different teams are utilizing this, different variants. And you can also go to small ball lineups with that skinny four that can also play the five in different lineups. Then you have the solo big five with Jared Allen. Obviously the Cavs haven’t utilized that as much as they might have wanted to, especially when we look at the fourth quarter. But that’s neither here nor there at this point.
Jimmy Watkins: The other big difference between the Thunder’s two big setup and the Cavs do a big set. Thunder are still susceptible at times to offensive rebounding. But like one of the main, main selling points of playing two bigs is supposed to be that you control the glass. And the Cavs just haven’t done that really at any point during the marriage of, of Jared Allen and, and Evan Mobley. I think Hartenstein is a much better version, much better fit of what the Cavs have wanted consistently for Jared Allen. He’s that bulk, he’s that muscle, right? Whereas Jared Allen can be energetic and active and all these different things, but he’s, he’s kind of, he’s another skinny guy sometimes, you know what I mean?
Joel Lorenzi: And while we’re trying to make the parallels, it does not help that Darius Garland has seemingly taken a step back. I mean, the Thunder second best ball handler and people there are people who have gripes with Jalen Williams being their second best ball handler. Right? Because you get to nitpick when you’re a dynasty. And if this team is going to win 74 games or, you know, threaten the legacy of the warriors or the 90s Bulls, this is the nitpicking you do. That being said, Jalen Williams is a far superior player than Jareus Garland, obviously. Different modes of players, different archetypes. Jalen Williams is a versatile defender. He’s a real wing. He scales up, he scales down. Darius Garland when It when it felt like the Cavs had real momentum to be an east contender, was a great floor general bursty guard could create his own shot, can do all these things. He was a good facilitator, was genuinely helpful next to Donovan Mitchell, and we all know the underlying well, hey, you probably got to hide these guys to a degree. You got to scheme around them as defenders. There was a time when that felt like it mattered less. And now that you’re seeing this sort of these drawbacks with Darius Garland as an offensive player that he’s not realizing his potential as an offensive player, it’s just even more problematic to sort of draw the faulty parallels there.
Ethan Sands: Yeah, I mean you, you mentioned it there. Jalen Williams is a two way player. Darius Garland is an offensive player when he’s successful. And that’s basically it right there. If Darius Garland isn’t playing to an all star caliber offensively, he’s a liability on both ends of the floor and you can’t rely on him in any kind of capacity. Jalen Williams, if he’s not having the best offensive game defensively, as you mentioned, he can scale up, scale down. He can be a small ball 5 in cases which I still think is so nutty, but it’s absurd. I want to talk about the identities of these different teams. Obviously we haven’t talked about the Chicago Bulls as much as I thought we were going to on today’s podcast, but.
Joel Lorenzi: It’S very hard to talk about them.
Jimmy Watkins: Where is Josh Giddey on the J on the Darius Garland?
Joel Lorenzi: Jay Leslie, Next question.
Ethan Sands: Let’s get to the identity or the lack thereof on my identity for the Cleveland Cavalry and also the identity of the Chicago Bulls, who even if Joel and Jimmy and all of us can admit it’s hard to talk about this team, even in losses, they still have an identity. On the offensive end at least they still like to run. They’re still the second fastest team, second most pace heavy team, and that was so poorly executed in the transition defense by the Cavs that they lost on Wednesday. The Cavs again, do not have an identity. OKC has this defense first mentality, this defense first identity. Cavs like to say that they have that. They don’t have that anymore. That’s not actually a thing. When you look at these different teams, Joel, and you’ve been around organizations now that have leaned into who they are and then teams that are still trying to figure it out, how important is it for teams to have a foundational identity they can fall back on, especially when injuries and inconsistency continue to hit throughout the league.
Joel Lorenzi: Yeah, it’s, it’s important, but it’s also harder to achieve than we, we make it sound. I think to craft and curate an identity is a slow burn, Man. For OKC, it took instilling the habits two 20 win seasons, bringing in the defenders that mattered, the personnel that can play to that identity, coaching up the guys who were not necessarily defenders to begin with, and then putting a scheme around like Shay, so where he can be like the league’s most high profile free safety instead of chasing the ball all the time. Like it takes so many things to go right. And the Bulls came into the season saying, well, you know, obviously they pivoted last year offensively, like they wanted to become this higher paced team. They got rid of their ISO driven stars and wanted this egalitarian offense that would run teams into the ground. They figured that out. Cool. They came into the season saying, okay, we’re going to build a defense. I don’t know if arrogance is the right word, but it’s ballsy to come into the season and say, well, okay, we’re going to craft a defense, we’re going to start working toward defensive identity. Let’s take the exact team that we saw go 15, 5 to end last year and simply add Isaac Okoro to that. It’s a bit ballsy. Now granted, he’s been probably their best defender. Like, I know the numbers don’t favor him. He clearly makes a difference when he shows up. I mean, he’s the guy taking all the tough assignments, whereas if it’s not him, it has to be like Tre Jones who’s been in and out of the lineup and he’s a good player, but you’re asking a lot of him at his size, if he has to pick up all these perimeter assignments and then modest Bouzelis, that was the issue last year, was that, I mean, he wants to be held to this higher defensive standard. He has not warranted the expectations of an all defense guy like he commanded in the preseason. But also it’s a lot to ask him to be chasing guys around or even most of his assignments this year have been the Evan Mobleys, the Paulo Bancheros, and he just cannot exact his physicality into the game. So Isaac Okaros had to be like this Superman, scale up, scale down, like Alex Caruso used to. Like some players that are like out of his tier, he’s being asked to do the things they do. I mean, he’s going from guarding everybody from Tyrese Maxey to Lowry Markanet, which is like a crazy palette of assignments. And so I just think it was ballsy coming into the season saying, well, we’re going to build a defense. Let’s start by adding this one guy. It’s hard to craft an identity, man. And even with the Bulls identity, if you want to say the offensive leaning, they’re offensive leaning team, because that’s probably what you need to be building around Josh Giddey. They’re fast. They do these things like they still don’t get up that many threes. They care about the looks they get, but they don’t get up that many threes to which is usually synonymous with this sort of high pace offense stuff. And then I think they need so many guys with the roster they have, they need so many guys to be healthy and clicking and playing average or better than average to stand the chance. Which is what I thought you saw in the first five games this year when they went 50 and stunned the NBA and caught them off guard. And then what maybe happened last night. Granted, the Cavs have injuries. There seems to be a lot of dysfunction from afar right now. That helps. But I don’t know, it’s been hard for the Bulls to upkeep even their offensive identity because they just need so much to go right with the way this team is built.
Jimmy Watkins: I would say ambitious is the word when you just add Isaac Okoro to the, to the mix. To the mix and say we fixed it. Who’s protecting the rim? Nicole Vucevic. Isaac Okoro will fix it. Isaac Okoro will fix it. I also find that to be a, a funny. We’re going to run up and down the court. Who’s your center? Nikola Vucevich. It’s a great trailer. He’s a great trailer. He’s actually Nicola Vucevich’s greatest skill as a slow big man is that it is harder for teams to find him as a trailer, as the Cavs struggled to do mightily last night. Because the offense is moving so fast, people are looking behind him going, oh, he’ll never get here. Then he does and he’s open up top. He’s opened up top for three. On that point though. I mean, mean, you just, you saw these teams play twice so far, right? Twice in the regular season. I mean, last night I, I would, I was watching back. I watched every Bulls basket today again and it was just to me the main culprit is as much, yes, Evan Mobley being out. Bad thing for your defense. Max Drus As a, as a tone setter, not as a stopper, but as a tone setter, as an accountability guy, culture guy. Not great to have him missing. A lot of new faces out there. I just see a team, like you said, a lot of things need to go right for the Bulls offense to work. I see a team that was willing to do all those things. I see team. I see a team that had bad body language after misses and turnovers. I see a team that is ball watching when Isaac Coro is making small smart cuts off the ball. I see a team that to our conversation right now lacks an identity. So we’re in the weeds here. Joel, your perspective from the outside kind of thousand foot view, what do you think the Cavs are trying to do as a basketball team and why aren’t they doing it?
Joel Lorenzi: Yeah, load the question that I don’t know if I’m the best to answer. Like I said, playing to our identity is harder than it seems. Especially because like the identity that has served the Cavs well only got them so far. Like at a certain point their personnel is what it is. And I thought, you know, with the right breaks they could make a conference finals. When healthy, they’re a great regular season machine. But there are just certain limitations. Again, with Donovan Mitchell, there’s just as far as their playoff aspirations, there are just better series changing players across the board in both conferences, better playoff picture altering players. And so it makes it so in my opinion, you really have to play to your identity. I think personnel and identity are in direct connection. Whereas like if your personnel is worse off, you know, and you’re trying to like, the Cavs are in such a different ballpark than the Bulls, where the Bulls are building around Josh Giddey right now and they’re egalitarian. Like the Cavs have stars to cling to. That being said, if your stars are Donovan Mitchell and Evan Mobley instead of Shay and Chet or Wemby, and I want to be careful here, de’ Aaron Fox or whoever, I mean they have, they have a fast landing corps in San Antonio. When that’s the case, I think there’s a bigger margin for error for the teams with better ceiling raisers as far as sticking to your identity and the Cavs, there’s just been inconsistency in terms of sticking to their identity. From, from where I sit, you look at a team like the Thunder, who’s supposed to be, you know, Cavs West, I guess you look at a team like them, they miss Jalen Williams for basically all the Season up until last week, they’re down guys who are in and out of their rotations. Shay might sit for rest, Lou Dort might miss games, Isaiah Hardenstein has missed games, Caruso has missed games. But I think you see them play to their identity. They’re just a great team first of all with their system and their staff and the way that things run in the building. And this is a tough ask for Cleveland, but they have guys 1 through 15. They have a system where 12 through 15 on a given night could come in the game and give them minutes that fit the system like system beneficial minutes like Kenrich Williams could not play for three games, come in a game and play exactly to the system in the way they need. But Brandon Carlson, their Mormon, like 4th string center who never plays, can come in, stretch the floor, do whatever they need, block shots and look like he plays every night. It’s levels to this man. And when you’re, when you’re a great team and you have Shay and Chet and these guys, there’s a bigger margin for error. That being said, even their rotational guys down the bench play better to the system. And I, I, I think it’s a tough ask for contenders league wide to have something like that, such a fluid system that you ask your 15 man to come in play. We could boil this down to consistency of sticking to your identity. And the margin for error especially now is just smaller for Cleveland than it’s been. And part of that going back to the Evan mobile stuff, he should be a better player by now. The margin for error would be bigger.
Jimmy Watkins: If he was, he was supposed to be the ceiling raiser. Donovan was a caretaker of the franchise until Evan Mobley was ready. Kenny’s main job as a coach, Kenny Agus main job as a coach has been get him there. And we saw flashes last year. It was Evan Mobley being enabled more often with by Darius Garland and Donovan Mitchell and you know, show, show us what you can do when these guys gear their elite skill sets towards setting you up a little bit more and we, we make things life a little bit easier for you on offense. Maybe give, give you a few more reps to do those things. This year I think they were kind of hoping cuffs are off like just like what if, what if you’re the guy now and they, they gave it a very short window and I think the answer was very quickly he’s not, he’s not ready for this. And the thing I keep coming, I mean we’re so, again we’re so far past this now this thing, the, the water is so contaminated with this team, like cats can’t even get themselves to play hard right now. But like, just for if we’re looking big picture, like what was supposed to happen and what’s happening and what happened instead, I, I still feel like they pulled those reins back from him a little quickly. I’ve been asking on this very pod for two years. Like, okay, it’s very nice to say all these things about Evan Mopey as a potential MVP candidate and he takes us to where we’re supposed to go. He’s the key that unlocks everything. But like, along that path, there are going to be some ugly growing pains. So what is your appetite for inefficient Evan Mobley possessions? What is your appetite for Evan Mobley struggling through the decision making tree that comes with being a heightened part of an offensive. Moving up on a scouting report. Right. And he didn’t handle it well to start the season. I thought he, his answer was too often. You can say, Joel, that he should be hitting more of these threes. And that’s true. He showed us a little bit of that last year. But like, answer too often was, ooh, I have a pull up three that the defense is more than willing to give me. I’m going to take that. And you want to see that. Part of their correction of that has been getting him closer to the basket. They’re the path, the path they’re on right now. We talked about this last week, Ethan. Like, they’re trying to get Evan Moby back to where he was Last year now 30 games into the season. And Kenny was saying a practice last week, he’s almost there. Well, we thought by 30 games in the season we’d be having, like, is he sixth in the MVP conference? Like this where this thing was aimed and where it ended up is so disorienting. Obviously now he’s injured, so that’ll be another, you know, reset point for him. We’ll see how, we’ll see what happens in the interim and we’ll see how they try to, to steady him when he gets back. That’s the, the real center of this whole thing. Like Evan Mobley has been asked to grow up a little bit faster than the Thunder have needed Chet to grow up. And that’s in part because Shay’s Shay and Donovan’s not quite Shay and. And that is what it is, but that’s what the money’s for. Like, you got, you gotta figure it out.
Joel Lorenzi: Like Moby should be. I have no other way to articulate this. By now, in the Cavs idyllic world, Mobley should have been a 94 overall by now instead of a 87 or 86. Like that’s just what it should have been. And that would have made this thing work and made the margin for error bigger. And it’s just not.
Ethan Sands: And I think when we talk about identity, right, and I want to wrap this point up here, this section of the podcast up here. Kenny Atkinson came in, was hired for this job to replace J. Bickerstaff because he was some offensive wizard. He had more adjustments, more schematic principles that he was going to put in place that was going to make this offense sing. He did that in year one, right. This was a historic regular season offense for the first season here now without some of the shooters and without Max Strus and Sam Arrow, obviously personnel is huge, but you also look at how much he’s focused on the defensive end of the floor, making adjustments at the point of attack, making adjustments with how they are trying to commit turnovers, getting away from allowing the defense to funnel to Jared Allen or Evan Mobley, and you’re seeing less of the offensive creation that made them so great. The ATOs have regressed. They’re not as crisp, they’re not as good as they were last year. You’ve seen that the system that has been set up for Darius Garland and Donovan Mitchell, oh, Darius is back in the game. We’re now going to get more drives than we have all season. When Darius is not there, what happens? How can we create more offense from the free throw line extended from the drunker spot, from the painted area, all these different things. And I think Kenny Atkinson needs to focus more on what made him great, what got him this job, which was the offensive end of the floor. And that’s something that this Cavs team is relying on him to help them be put in the best scenarios to succeed, no matter who’s on the floor and what lineup variations he’s putting them in. And this kind of gets into my next question to you, Joelle. When it comes to accountability and that not necessarily being an option, right. We talk about Billy Donovan, who was called out in the Chicago Bulls on multiple different occasions at press conferences this season and obviously mark down not having to do that, but also just simply having that standard for them in practices and different conversations. How necessary is that kind of discomfort for growth? And what do you think it would take for the Cavs to clean up issues like transition defense and shot selection that teams like The Bulls are exploiting.
Joel Lorenzi: I think it’s very necessary. While you need a level of delusion to win, you can’t be overcome by delusion and what you have in the building. Like, you need to know what it takes for you to win games. And I think the Bulls maybe underestimated just how much would need to go right on a nightly basis for them to win games. And they saw that during this nasty stretch before this past week where they lost to, like, six or seven lottery teams. Like, just as nasty of a stretch as you can play of hoop. It takes that clarity. And, you know, I can’t speak to Billy’s exact motives beyond putting things in perspective with us. But, like, look, like, I don’t think Billy was wrong in saying, like, you know, he’s been quoted multiple times saying, hey, people want to say we lost the lottery teams, but, you know, we’re not so different from a New Orleans or Indian in that so much has to go right for us to win games. Which is a nasty quote. It sounds nasty. And Bulls fans are, like, trying to, you know, rip their ears off when they hear that. But, like, he’s not entirely wrong. Like, so much has to go right for these Bulls to win games, as evidenced by giving New Orleans two of their five wins this season. Losing to Indy twice in like a week and a half span. Losing to Brooklyn, dude, the night they lost to Brooklyn, Brooklyn’s in the hallway cheering. Let’s make it three in a row. Like, if that’s not sobering, as far as perspective, I don’t know, it is. So you need Billy Donovan to come in there. Still, coaching is a lot of delusion, too. Like, you have to coach up guys even if the results aren’t matching the belief. Right. And I think Billy, for what it’s worthwhile, he’s, maybe you could argue he’s mismanaged modest Bouzelis and in his second year, growth, and he’s mismanaged lineups and he’s played vuch too much or at the wrong times and it took him too long to play double big lineups. Some of that was injuries, blah, blah, blah. You could go. You can probably make a list of the things Billy Donovan is maybe mismanaged. That being said, he’s never been wrong about what this team is and has to do to win. And that level of clarity is necessary now. I don’t know how it relates to the Cavs. It’s also different when you’re dealing with superstars because there’s ego involved in that. There’s ego involved in how you coach Adon, Evan Mitchell, how you coach. From afar, Evan Mobley seems kind of more like a fragile ego to deal with than a Kevin Durant. I know Kevin Durant’s a big tweeter, but you tell Kevin Durant what it is, he knows what it is. You tell Draymond Green what it is, he can tell you what it is. Evan Moby has a scene like that type. You got to coach guys differently according to ego. It’s an ego league. These egos sometimes run these franchises. So it’s a tough balance. I don’t know how it has to work in Cleveland’s facilities, but it is a. It is a tough dance, man. But clarity is a necessary tool for sure.
Jimmy Watkins: You nailed it. Billy Donovan gets to say those things because Billy Donovan’s coach, Josh Giddey, who still has a lot more to prove in this league. Yeah, he’s paid. He’s making 25 million a year, whatever it is. Vuch has been around the block, but Buzz Ellis could. Could end up being an all star. But like young teams, you just have more carte blanche to treat them that way. Kenny said something I’m trying to remember before. I’m not gonna remember the exact game, but I think it was before. During a pre game, he said something about how he. He had some. I don’t even remember which star it was. He had a conversation with one of the star players on this team, and, you know, he felt like he could yell at them or. This is the key part. As much as you can yell at a star in the NBA, right? Like this is the dominant culture in the league right now. Players have the power. The number one most powerful person the Cavs organization is still probably. Probably Dan Gilbert. Donovan Mitchell gives him a run for his money. Evan Mobley ain’t far behind. His power is wielded quietly. But everyone in the organization knows Kobe Altman knows Kenny Atkinson, knows that guy right there. The tall, quiet kid is our meal ticket. So we have to be very careful with the way we manage him, with the way we motivate him, with the way we call him out sometimes. I’ve been talking about this for a year now. At least the way they talk about Evan Mobley to us does not match the player they want him to be. If you are. If you think Evan Mobley can become at a 1A 1B type killer player, I would think part of that process is dangling that carrot and trying to light a fire under him. Because right now, it’s not There he plays like his personality, and that’s this basketball. Steve Caroll has said, like, you can learn a lot about who somebody is by the way they play basketball. Evan Mobley plays basketball. Quiet and reserved. He’s very comfortable letting Donovan Mitchell or Darius Garland run the offense. Cause they’re older than him, they’re more established. That’s understandable. That’s a part of this dynamic, too. But you’re supposed to be the guy now. You’re. You’re supposed to be the guy now. And I feel like the Cavs are often tiptoeing around him when he has these weird games where he disappears in second half. Whether it’s because Donovan Mitchell is not giving him the ball, or Darius God’s not giving him the ball, or Kenny always says, I need to put him in better positions, or he just needs to go get the ball, or he needs to speak up, or he needs to demonstrate to Donovan Mitchell that if you give me the ball, I am capable of carrying this offense. Right. Like, that’s. That’s part of this equation, too.
Joel Lorenzi: But.
Jimmy Watkins: But again, we’re so far. We’re so far removed. Because I actually think that Kenny could really take a page out of Billy Donovan’s book right now and say, hey, remember that whole film session of Truth we had last week where we were talking about accountability and all of the. All of the lazy mistakes we exposed and how you guys were saying that it’s going to be different after the NBA cup break? Well, since that point, our defense has been getting run up by the Washington Wizards, the Charlotte Hornets, and the Chicago Bulls. And I don’t know if you guys.
Ethan Sands: Checked the standings recently.
Jimmy Watkins: We’re the fricking play in. So until we start, obviously the talent is here. Obviously, the Cavs are a better constructed roster than some of these teams that they’re playing against. But something. Somebody needs to say something or do something or the players. This is another part of it. There’s only so many different ways Kenny can deliver the message before the players decide to hear it. And some. Some motivation has to be internal. You just have to decide to go sometimes. But something needs to change drastically. And it seems like such a little thing when we’re talking about transition defense and taking care of the basketball. Out of a made basket last night, the Bulls are throwing an outlet pass over their head for a layup. Man, like, this is elementary stuff, and it seems like such a simple fix. Maybe you need to shake somebody for that, for those adjustments to get made, because we are a third of the way into the season, and it’s starting to look scary. Like, again, injuries. I don’t care about the injuries anymore. We said this earlier. It’s Cavs versus Cavs right now, and the Cavs are fricking losing.
Ethan Sands: Yeah, Jimmy. And just to give some clarity to our Cavs listeners about the conversation you were talking about that was being had, it was during the 76ers game on November 5th where Kenny ripped them at halftime. And the quote that he said is, I ripped them. Rip them as much as you can rip anybody in the NBA. There’s levels to this.
Jimmy Watkins: Rip them some more. Yeah.
Ethan Sands: I think we’re trying to understand where this Cavs team can grow in that capacity. Donovan Mitchell is frustrated. Kenny Atkinson is frustrated. The entire organization is frustrated. But how they choose to go about handling it is still up in the air. But I got two more questions for Joelle before we get out of here. Both of them are tied back to OKC because of course, course they are the talk of the town after seeing a championship up close, covering a rebuild that is still in the works when it comes to the Chicago Bulls trying to refine themselves and build around Josh Giddey. Has your definition of what a real contender looks like changed?
Joel Lorenzi: No, because I don’t. I don’t think it looks any one way. I think if, if the bar is the Thunder, there are many, many teams who will now be contenders for years to come and who will miss that bar. I still think contenders come in different shapes and sizes, and frankly, God forbid, like somebody on the Thunder gets injured. Irrelevance like that is someone’s path to taking contention and making it a championship. I don’t think looking at how dominant the Thunder is has changed my definition of what a contender looks like because they, they have raised the bar. I mean, this is probably what a dynasty looks like. So contender, like, pales in comparison to that. Like Houston is a contender. Probably to me, the west has a few of those, like Denver still a contender to me, probably. If things swung their way in a playoff series, like they probably could be OKC in the Game seven. They came close last year before OKC gained the confidence to and AG went down. You know, there’s all these different caveats that happen in a playoff series. But no, my, my definition of a contender hasn’t changed. But I do have a up close, a closer than ever definition of probably a dynasty or at least what the, what the ingredients are. And I think that’s what we’re seeing. I think, I think I’M comfortable in.
Ethan Sands: Saying that that kind of ties into this last question. When you look across the league, do you believe believe that this Cavs group has a championship ceiling with the roster that’s currently constructed or does Hilary o’ Brien trophy feel like it’s going to stay out west for a little while longer when it comes to the OKC Thunder just running this gauntlet of being a dynasty?
Joel Lorenzi: Yeah. As it’s currently constructed? No. The Cavs are not a contender to me. That being said, could this core, if Donovan Mitchell is playing a one playoff ball, Evan Mobley becomes a 92 overall. There’s Garland plays like he has in the past. Jarrett Allen is the perfect complimentary big and plays aggressively with that core in sync. Do I think they could get to a conference finals or really push a East run? Sure. But as currently constructed, are they a real contender for the championship even if OKC is removed from the mix? Probably not. I don’t think this Cavs team as constructed would be Denver in a playoff series. I don’t think they beat Houston in a playoff series as I know people are like, oh well, Houston just got assembled. Whatever. Houston’s pretty damn good, man. So no. And like New York is definitively better than them. Not just right now, like the way their team is built. Dude, I love, I love this Knicks team and they’re getting the most out of some guys like, you know, historically, I mean, under Tibbs. And this is not to speak to like all the difference in Mike Brown and Tibbs, but like, you know, historically Tibbs is a tight rotation guy. I don’t know that Mike Brown is suddenly like lengthened the rotation, but he’s getting stuff out of a guy like Tyler Kohlik. Who. You remember Jimmy, when we were in Nebraska, Tyler Kohlik ran the Big east, dude. I didn’t think he was going to be a real impactful NBA player, but he’s a winning player. That mold is like actually kind of making some waves in the NBA. Look at Colin Gillespie, like he was around at that time. So the way the Knicks are getting stuff out of a guy, guys like Deuce McBride when he comes back, a guy like Tyler Kolek, I think Cleveland could be better in that, in getting stuff out of guys deeper on the bench. I mean that’s what you have to do to, to widen this margin of error. So as they’re constructed, could they be, you know, could they make a conference finals push? Sure. I think that’s more of an indictment on the top of the east. But Even, like, I’m forgetting Detroit. Detroit’s better than them right now. And Detroit, I think, has made a leap. I think they got invaluable experience in their Knick series last year. They do double bigs, and they do it well. Cade Cunningham could probably. This might be a hot take. Cade Cunningham could probably rise to the level. I don’t even think this is crazy to say. Could probably rise to the level of Donovan Mitchell in the playoff series. Like, that’s not crazy to say.
Jimmy Watkins: I agree.
Joel Lorenzi: They’re getting stuff and they have a real, like, you want to talk about identity and culture. The dude that left Cleveland a few years ago has built a real culture in Detroit reminiscent of the stuff that people have always loved historically about Detroit basketball. That stuff matters, man. Having something lean on. Going back to our earlier question. So I like what Detroit’s built. So could some lucky breaks swing Cleveland’s way and see them end up in a conference finals? Possibly. I think it would be an indictment on the east and not just the teams across the board, but the top of the East. It would mean that the Knicks or the Pistons probably fell short before then. But sure, there’s like the. It’s not an odd chance. I think it’s possible. But overall contender, by our definition now, definitely a couple tiers below the Thunder and a tier, maybe even a tier or two below Denver, Houston and so on.
Jimmy Watkins: So it’s so random to hear that. I think, for the. For our listeners.
Joel Lorenzi: Right.
Jimmy Watkins: But I think that’s important perspective. We are in this Cavs bubble where this is how we start the season. We start the season thinking the Cavs should at least win the. Get the one seed. And from that position, the east seemed a lot weaker across the board.
Joel Lorenzi: Yeah.
Jimmy Watkins: Yes. East seemed a lot weaker across the board. They should cakewalk to the conference finals, and then it’s them in the Knicks and we’ll see what lessons they learn along the way in the playoffs. And if you get to the finals, who knows, you know, J Dub, you know, hurts his thumb again and Thunder have some injuries. Like, obviously you’re, you’re, you’re rooting for, for bad luck on the other side at that point. But you know what you’re going into. But the finals would have been a huge step. Now it’s like, what are you really aiming for and what does it take to get there? We’re talking, we’re talking about. And I agree with this. I’ve been saying this for a couple weeks now. My calculus has completely, completely changed. I’m not sure they could win the east anymore. The conference finals question. I would like to see Detroit prove a little bit more in the playoffs. But that’s totally fair.
Joel Lorenzi: Fair.
Jimmy Watkins: That’s totally. I mean, it’s totally fair to say that Detroit is better than this. It’s actually objectively true by any metric that the Detroit Pistons are better than them right now. And for the Cade Cunningham, Donovan Mitchell. I know Don Mitchell’s a superhero around here, but like, what’s. What’s my favorite catchphrase around here? Basketball’s for tall people. Basketball’s for tall people. Okay, Cunningham’s tall. Don Mitchell’s not tall. Just how it works. If. If the Cavs get this version of Evan Mobley that to this point doesn’t exist.
Joel Lorenzi: If.
Jimmy Watkins: If the Cavs get this version of Donovan Mitchell that, frankly, the way Donovan Mitchell’s playing right now, having to shoot 30 shots every other day, it’s not helping them get there. If that happens, if they get this version of Darius Garland that has never existed in the playoffs and by the way, his toe injury, I’m starting to think that’s a feature, not a bug. Have we considered that fact? He’s back now. Kenny’s saying after every game, oh, he has nice stretches. And they need Darius Garland to be what he was last season. Plus plus to get where they need to go. So these are all ifs that need to happen. And we’re saying that these ifs apply to conference finals runs. Now, if Jared Allen plays aggressively for longer than eight straight basketball minutes, which we don’t see very often around here. Okay, this is where we are. This is where the Cavs are. The championship are literally. Forget about it right now. The Thunder are in a different universe. And I agree with Joel that Denver is a slight notch, slight notch below. And then Houston again. I’m still. I’m still not ready to give up on the, on the playoff ideal that like, can we get some shooting on the court to win in the playoffs? And I don’t know about Houston in a half court side. I know the offense, the shoot, the shooting is the offensive rebounds. Right?
Joel Lorenzi: It’s revolutionary, man. And it. And it works in the playoffs. They did it against Golden State without kd and they lost.
Jimmy Watkins: And they lost.
Joel Lorenzi: It was a game 7. They didn’t have a shot maker like KD back then.
Jimmy Watkins: I get it.
Joel Lorenzi: And they played every great team. They played them close this year.
Jimmy Watkins: I love Houston. I love watching them play there. They are revolutionary. It’s going to be. It’s going to be Fun. But I’m just saying, when we have big picture conversations about the Cavs and who should stay, who should go, what’s the bar to clear? The bar has been raised. I think that’s the big picture takeaway from this cup. The bar has been raised. So if you’re really being serious about trying to win a championship and not just trying to sell progress, incremental progress, like frankly the Cavs have been doing after the most two recent playoff exits, then you’re going to have to make some hard decisions around here.
Joel Lorenzi: I think the scary part for Cleveland right now is that the bar has not only been raised on the other side of the bracket, which was always probably a looming possibility, but. And like, maybe I’m a little high on Detroit here. Like, dude, cade Cunahan is 24 and an all NBA player and maybe I’m overrating that playoff series, but I think the experience is invaluable. I mean, this is a guy who’s now been forged by playing the Knicks post, nearly forcing a game seven and what they lose 28 straight games, like two years ago. Like the experience this dude has now, the drive he has. These are intangibles. I know, but they matter. And you give a guy this experience and he’s. He’s still only 24 with that experience and you give him the right team around him, you give him hard nose defenders, line of versatility. I think they could probably use a better secondary guy next to him. I love the progress Jalen Durham is making as a role partner, but if you give him, if he ever gets a remotely high profile secondary ball handler, the east better look out, bro. And I think right now they should have people on their toes. So maybe I’m a little high on them, but it’s the scary part to add to your point is that the bar has been raised in their own conference, which was not supposed to be a thing.
Ethan Sands: Hey, Joel, you’re not alone. I was high on Detroit coming into the season and I was getting some weird faces on this podcast. So it’s not just you, my boy. It’s not just from Jimmy.
Joel Lorenzi: Weird faces from Jimmy.
Jimmy Watkins: I major. I major in weird faces. I. I mean, let’s see some. My shooting question applies to them as well.
Joel Lorenzi: Yeah, and you have a perpetual weird face.
Ethan Sands: So we can all agree that the Oklahoma City Thunder are the running favorites for the NBA championship. To be the first team to go back to back since the 2017 and the 2018 Golden State Warriors. And the rest of the NBA is just playing for A second. Is that what we’re agreeing on on this podcast?
Joel Lorenzi: Yeah, but I, I, I mean I don’t think they need our opinion for, for that to be the consensus.
Jimmy Watkins: So how about they’re going to break the wins record. They, they’re going to threaten the playoff record. We’re in fo, fo, fo range with this team. That’s how good they are. I think they could win a title without, with losing one of their core pieces. As long as it’s not Shay.
Joel Lorenzi: How many wins this season in August?
Jimmy Watkins: 75.
Joel Lorenzi: 70. 75. I’m a little worried about it just because I think they care about it if it’s in range, but I don’t think they’re necessarily going to chase it now. They might not have to chase it to break it. Like I said earlier, Brandon Carlson could come in and break the record depending on who they’re playing. But I just, I, I worry about how much, I mean this is such a, this is such a, a basketball viewership thing to worry about. They don’t, they don’t care. But I just worry about them being brushing up with the record and saying, oh well, we’re going to arrest guys because we prioritize the playoffs and going back to back now the, the playoff record is actually interesting because I don’t think that’s going to happen. I think they’ll at least get nudged by a team or two, especially in the west, but then they’ll end up winning again.
Jimmy Watkins: We’ll see. I think for the regular season record, they roll out of bed and dust most of these dudes. So who’s playing, who doesn’t play? I’m not really that concerned about it, honestly. In the playoffs, I mean, we’re saying, oh boy, all these other teams are rooting for the Thunder to have an injury. Well, what if the, what if Denver or Houston loses a dude? What if Kevin Durant, a very old basketball player who has a recent injury history that is pretty long, what if he gets hurt? The Houston Rockers are a completely different team and they’re, they don’t look the same like that. That, that is a two way street.
Joel Lorenzi: Fair enough.
Ethan Sands: All right, well, I think the, the best way to end with, to circle back to a final conclusion about the Cavs. The Cavs last year, 64 wins, did not break the 66 win record. 15. And oh, they were trying immensely hard to break that streak for the Calves to start the season and then the end of their season ended how it did.
Jimmy Watkins: The X rays on those Calves found Zero dogs inside, by the way. Zero dogs. They came back negative for dog on the Oklahoma City Thunder. They found an abundance of dogs on those X rays.
Ethan Sands: I think that’s indicative of what Joel was saying is that the Thunder, while they may not have to try, they’re not focused on that. They’re focused on the bigger picture. They’re focused on winning a championship. And I think while we cannot even talk about the Cavs winning a championship at this point in the season, I think that’s the difference with those two teams is the thought process, the hunger, and yes, Jimmy, the dog of the mentality of the players on the roster.
Jimmy Watkins: Woof woof. Boys, are we doing a group interview? We all. We are going to bark at the end of this.
Joel Lorenzi: No.
Ethan Sands: No. Thank you, Joel, for joining us. That was an extremely insightful episode and we will look to have you back on later into the season. But it won’t be the playoffs because we know Chicago’s not going to make it that far.
Joel Lorenzi: Who’s to say I’ll be on Chicago come playoffs?
Ethan Sands: Hey, then we’re talking about the Cavs not being there. With all that being said, that’ll wrap up today’s episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. But remember to become a Cavs insider and interact with Chris, Meadow and Jimmy by subscribing to subtext. Sign up for a 14 day free trial or visit cleveland.comcavs and click on the blue bar at the top of page. If you don’t like it, that’s fine. All you have to do is text the word stop. It’s easy, but we can tell you that the people who sign up stick around because this is the best way to get insider coverage on the Cavs from me, Chris and Jimmy. This isn’t just our podcast. It’s your podcast. And the only way to have your voice heard is through subtext. Y’ all be safe. We out.