CLEVELAND, Ohio — In this Subtext subscriber Q&A–driven episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast, Ethan Sands and Chris Fedor dig into the most pressing questions coming from the Cavs’ most engaged fans. They guys start by unpacking the decision to give Craig Porter Jr. meaningful minutes over a struggling Lonzo Ball, breaking down what it says about the coaching staff’s trust, lineup flexibility and how delicate in-season rotation tweaks are handled.
Takeaways:
Craig Porter Jr. May Be Permanently Replacing Lonzo Ball in the Rotation
The decision to bench Lonzo Ball in favor of Craig Porter Jr. against the San Antonio Spurs signals a significant potential shift in the Cavaliers’ rotation. While coach Kenny Atkinson cited the compressed schedule as a reason to rest Ball, the hosts believe the move was primarily driven by performance. Porter Jr. has consistently provided a greater impact with comparable defense, better rebounding, and superior offensive efficiency, including fewer turnovers. Rewarding an undrafted player who has earned his minutes is seen as crucial for team morale. Although it’s a delicate situation given Ball is a veteran trade acquisition, the on-court evidence strongly suggests Porter Jr. is the more effective and helpful player for the team at this moment.
Jaylon Tyson Has Emerged as an Unexpectedly Vital, “Playoff-Ready” Piece
Jaylon Tyson is considered the best positive surprise of the season, developing into a legitimate and impactful rotational player far earlier than anyone anticipated. Despite low expectations entering his second year, he currently leads the team in 3-point percentage and provides consistent energy. Chris Fedor made the bold claim that, from a mental and physical readiness standpoint, he has more trust in Tyson as a playoff performer than in core players like Darius Garland and Evan Mobley. Tyson’s mentality, physicality, and inability to be rattled are seen as exactly what the team was missing in previous playoff runs, making him a crucial find for the organization.
Jarrett Allen is Critical to On-Court Success, But His Long-Term Future is Uncertain
The podcast debated whether Jarrett Allen is the “heart and soul” of the team. His value is undeniable, with some inside the organization believing the franchise’s turnaround began with his acquisition. The team’s record is significantly better when he is offensively involved, and his on/off court ratings are highly positive. However, there’s a paradox to his role; despite his current importance, he is viewed as the “most expendable” member of the Core Four. This is primarily because of his contract and the long-term expectation that Evan Mobley will eventually transition to play the center position full-time, making Allen’s future with the team complex and uncertain.
Atkinson’s “Searching” Explains Rotational Inconsistency
The Cavaliers’ underwhelming start has prompted coach Kenny Atkinson to actively search for answers and lineup consistency. The hosts explained that Atkinson’s coaching philosophy involves experimentation, which sometimes means letting a lineup fail to fully understand its limitations before making a change. This “jagged” and deliberate process, while potentially frustrating, explains why rotational shifts — like starting Dean Wade over De’Andre Hunter or giving Craig Porter Jr. minutes over Lonzo Ball — took a significant number of games to occur. The team is still in a discovery phase, trying to find what works best as they navigate injuries and underperformance relative to preseason expectations.
A New Offensive Focus on Big Men May Be the Path Forward
There is a growing belief within the organization that the Cavaliers’ offense functions best when it runs through its bigs, Jarrett Allen and Evan Mobley. This strategic approach shifts the primary responsibilities of guards Donovan Mitchell and Darius Garland from scoring to playmaking, which helps get the entire team involved and improves offensive flow. The successful game against the Spurs, where the team made a concerted effort to feed the ball to Allen and Mobley, was highlighted as a key example. This potential philosophical pivot is seen as a solution to the team’s offensive inconsistency and a way to maximize the impact of players like Allen.
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Transcript
NOTE: This transcript was generated by artificial intelligence and could contain misspellings and errors.
Ethan Sands: What up, Cavs Nation? I’m your host, Ethan Sands, and I’m back with another episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. And joining me today, Chris Fedor. And sorry to keep you guys waiting. We know it’s been a busy holiday season for you as much as it has been for for us. But we’re back and we are here with, of course, another episode that is dedicated to hey Chris. Questions that are answered from Subtext subscribers where you can become an insider alongside us with insight directly from us to your phones. All you have to do is sign up for a 14 day free trial or you can go to cleveland.comcavs and click on the blue bar at the top of the page. But without further ado, Chris, it’s good to be back and I want to make sure we start off with something that has happened recently when it comes to this Cleveland Cavaliers team. As we know, they just faced off against the San Antonio spurs and they came away with a victory. One of the major keys for this game that was different from a majority of the rest of the season was was that Lonzo Ball did not get minutes in this contest. And our first question from our subtexters coming from Pranav in Columbus, Ohio says thank goodness for the turn to Craig Porter Jr. Over Lonzo Ball. But building on Chris’s point that that’s a hard move to make for a coach, I’m curious how Kenny Atkinson decides if this is a permanent switch or if in some cases Lonzo Ball skills are actually required. If it’s a long term switch, how do they keep a player like Ball engaged for when you might need him, like in the playoffs, if there are injuries, et cetera. And of course, knock on wood, Chris, this is a delicate situation for any organization. But of course, Lonzo Ball being a player that the Cavs traded for, how did the Cavs walk this fine line?
Chris Fedor: I think we have to see, Ethan. I think we have to see what happens against Phoenix. Does Lonzo play? Does he not play? I think we have to see what happens against Denver. Does Lonzo play? Does he not play? Because I asked Kenny following the game against San Antonio, I said what went into the decision to take Lonzo out of the rotation? And he said it was a twofold thing. Part of it was yes, they wanted to try different lineups and combinations. The other part of it, according to Kenny, is that they don’t have any back to backs during this two, three week stretch, but they play every other day until January 18th. January 18th is going to be the first day that they actually have two days off in a row before playing Oklahoma City. So I think part of the decision to sit Lonzo also tied into the schedule that Kenny’s going to look for opportunities, just like he has throughout the course of this season, to find these. These pockets of. Of rest nights that aren’t actually considered rest nights for some of these guys. And he thought it made sense based on, you know, a tough, physical game against Houston, a tough, physical game against New York to make that be a night that they didn’t use Lonzo. That’s part of the equation. But I think if we’re weighting the percentages of it, I think that’s in the lower tier. I think the higher tier is that Lonzo just was underperforming and that everybody could see it and that we’re at a point in the season where numbers aren’t as noisy as they once were and numbers are more informative. And I think Kenny understands the kind of impact that Craig Porter Jr. Has had compared to Lonzo is just different, and everybody can see it. So if. If Craig is going to give them a little bit more in terms of rebounding, if he’s going to give them about the same in terms of defense and deflections and fighting through screens and getting in the passing lanes and being disruptive at that end of the floor, and then he’s going to give them more offensively, albeit not a ton, but fewer turnovers, maybe not as much risk to his game every now and then make an open shot in a way that Lonzo hasn’t. Then I think he has to continue to reward Craig for. For his impact like he has talked all season long about. These are the things that we need from Jaylon Tyson. Do these things and you’re going to be rewarded. Do these things and you’re going to get a bigger opportunity. He’s talked all season long about the same with Naquan Tomlin and Craig Porter Jr. Well, if you have these guys that are doing them and doing them to a higher level and you don’t reward them, that is a very, very bad look, and that ruins relationships, and that can create some kind of problems behind the scenes. And I’m not saying that it has happened, and I’m not saying that that’s the feeling behind the scenes, but I’m saying that it could get to that point if you don’t continue to reward these guys who to this point, deserve it more and have earned it more. So I do think it is delicate because Lonzo was brought here for a reason, because Lonzo is a veteran. But I think at the same time the way that, that you kind of massage the situation is you have open ended communication, you tell Lonzo why you’re doing what you’re doing, you explain to him beforehand what’s going on and you hope that, that he understands it. And the other thing is that stay ready because situations are going to call for something different potentially, because matchups are going to call for something different potentially because of the way that a certain guy is playing. That may call for Kenny to make some kind of change, but, but I think he has to have the freedom to continue to make these kinds of decisions, and I think he will continue to have the freedom to make these kinds of decisions provided that he’s straightforward and he’s open and honest with these guys. And it feels like Kenny is.
Ethan Sands: And I think that’s all important. Chris and we talk about Lonzo Ball and Craig Porter Jr. And I’ve been on the Craig Porter Jr. Train since before Craig Porter Jr. Signed a standard deal, right, dating back to a couple of years ago. Now we’re talking about him finally getting minutes and he’s earned them. And that’s the point that I think is extremely important and extremely delicate when, when it comes to this situation. Chris, I know you asked Kenny after a recent game on the road about maybe why he didn’t go to Craig Porter Jr. Or Jaylon Tyson or stick with Thomas Bryant or Naquan Tomlin who were having impacts in one of these games. And he said, well, maybe you can hold that against me because maybe I should have because I tried them in the first little stint in the fourth quarter, it worked and then I went away from them again. This has been a recurring theme with Kenny Atkinson. I’ve asked him and called him out a couple of times after post games about whether or not he should have gone to a particular player, Craig Porter Jr. In particular this season, because I’ve mentioned on this podcast, it’s felt like he’s had a tighter leash than any other player on the roster, especially for his impact in specific games. But in the same light, you also mentioned the matchups that could call for a bigger guard. We know that Lonzo Ball being 6 foot 6 and Craig Porter Jr being around 6 foot 1, 6 foot 2. I know Kenny Atkinson said 6 foot 4 in his post game press conference. He was embellishing there. Folks, I’m sorry to tell you, But Craig Porter Jr. Is an undersized guard. So sometimes you’re going to need to go to Lonzo Ball. And I mentioned this after a specific game against the New York Knicks on Christmas Day where I thought that there was a lineup that I think Kenny Atkinson can and should explore more with, especially against bigger teams when it comes to a five man unit consisting of Donovan Mitchell, DeAndre Hunter, Evan Mobley, Jaylon Tyson and yes, Lonzo Ball. Because we see how he is able to guard on the perimeter, we see how he’s able to chase better than he is a point of attack deter on the defensive end of the floor. And and the numbers kind of back this up as well. The Cavs have a Defensive rating of 104.3 per 100 possessions when this 5 man unit is on the floor for a net rating of 21.3 with an offensive rating of 125.5. And Chris, I think other important thing that I also wrote about for this is there is a contingency plan. Right. That’s the beauty of the Cavs roster as currently constructed. They have adjustability and versatility of multiple different players to plug and play when they’re healthy. And I think that’s the difficult portion of what the Cavs have been trying to tell us early on into the season. And the one player, if we wanted to go for away from Ball because his offensive liabilities, as we know, he’s shooting the worst out of players that have played at least 20 games this season and are averaging at least 10 minutes per game. He has the worst field goal percentage in the entire NBA. So a player that could also plug into this, especially noting the New York Knicks and the kind of big initiators and guards like Cade Cunningham and Jalen Brunson, you have guys like Dean Wade who also can come into this lineup. And when we talk about this five man unit of Donovan Mitchell, DeAndre Hunter, Dean Wade, Evan Mobley and Jaylen Tyson, this has a net rating of 19.4 and a defensive rating of 109.1. And of course that offensive rating upticks to 128.6. So I think this is a question more so about how the Cavs and Kenny Atkinson are going to be willing to facilitate the players and figure out where they’re able to mix and match in the right settings. And I think that’s the main portion of what we talked about with Kenny Atkinson is putting the players in the right position to be successful. Successful, but also having the health and the players available for them to actually make those things happen.
Chris Fedor: Yeah. And I think this also goes back to something that Kenny talked about coming into the season. And not everybody wanted to hear it, but, but it’s, it’s the truth. Like sometimes experimentation will lead to failure, just the way that it goes. And sometimes you learn through failure and sometimes you learn through success. And I do still think, and we’ve talked about this on a recent podcast, I think there are a lot of people inside this organization searching, searching for answers, searching for consistency, searching for stability, searching for what is the right approach moving forward. Because nobody expected them for, for all of the things that they talked about coming into this year. Nobody expected 18 and 16 being booed at home as much as the Cavs have been booed at home. Nobody expected Evan Mobley to not take the next leap. You know what I’m saying? So there have been things that have happened throughout the course of this first half of the season that nobody expected. So they’re not where they want to be. They haven’t played like the team that they believe that they are. And so I do think Kenny’s going to continue to search for the right lineups and the right combinations, and it may take him a while to get to some of these destinations, some of these ones that look better than others. But in his own mind, sometimes he needs to see a group fail before he goes away from it. And I know that people don’t like hearing that because it feels like you’re sacrificing good basketball. It feels like you may be sacrificing wins, but it’s part of it. Because I just don’t think he knows exactly what he has with this group because of all the stops and starts, because of all the changes, because of all the guys in the lineup, because of the different injuries and the different starting lineups that he’s had to use. Ethan, we talked in the off season and I said it over and over and over again that if, if Max Schuss is not going to be available at the beginning of the season, the Cavs best starting five stares them at the face all the time. And like, it took 30 something games for Kenny Atkinson to actually put Dean Wade in the starting lineup and take DeAndre Hunter out of the starting lineup. But he got there. There were a lot of twists and turns. It wasn’t a straight line, but he got there. You know what I’m saying? And I, I think for the Lonzo struggles, for the Lonzo disappointment, for the frustrations with Lonzo, it wasn’t a straight line, it was jagged. But he got there. He got there. The other night against San Antonio. And it works. Craig Porter Jr. Was one of the most important players to that fourth quarter that the Cavs had. The offensive rebounds, the deflections, the tenacity, the block from behind, just the way that he played, the impact that he brought. And, and I think there’s enough evidence at this point. And, and we’ll see if Kenny continues to go this way. And just because he makes a move, it doesn’t mean that he’s beholden to it, right? Just because now he has Dean Wade in the starting lineup, it doesn’t mean that he’s beholden to that and he can’t make a change at some point. But when it comes to Craig and Lonzo specifically, there is enough evidence so far this year, this year, not talking about history, not talking about three years ago, not talking about what was supposed to be when the Cavs traded for Lonzo. This version of Alonzo on this basketball team under these circumstances, has not been as consistently impactful as Craig Porter Jr. He has not been as consistently good and helpful as Craig Porter Jr. And at some point, you just can’t ignore those things, right? At some point, you have to follow the evidence wherever it leads you, even if it’s not where you thought it was going to lead you to. So it’ll be interesting to see if. If Kenny continues with. With this particular rotation and, and these lineup combinations. Because Craig has been better than Lonzo, and at some point there has to be a level of acceptance of that.
Ethan Sands: I agree. And I think there is a level of impact when you have the intensity meter, right. We talk about the energy that the Cavs bench unit simply needs to have, and Lonzo doesn’t necessarily play with that. Sometimes you can see it on the defensive end, But Craig Porter Jr. Has it on both ends of the floor. And especially when you talk about transition defense and Craig being someone that Kenny still wants to try and get, offensive boards because he simply has that knack for the basketball. His ability to, even if he doesn’t get an offensive board, to either deter the ball handler at the point of attack as soon as they grab the rebounder or simply take the ball from them as they try to get it out of their hands is something that not a lot of players in the NBA are capable of. And Craig Porter Jr. Makes it feel like it’s second nature. So I think that’s something that’s important that cannot go unnoticed. And I do think we need to see more Craig Porter Jr. Minutes going forward. I just want to reiterate the fact that the lineups that I was talking about are more so in spurts, especially in fourth quarter minutes when the Cavs need to stop defensively and need more size to get it done. But getting into the next question from our subtexters, when it comes to someone that I mentioned in our lineups a couple of different times because of how impactful he has been, this question comes from Jeff in Washington saying, hey guys, happy New Year. Let’s talk about possibly the best positive surprise of the season to date. Jaylon Tyson. Wow. Did anyone see his development coming like this? He’s a legit rotational player and I hope he continues to get more minutes. What are your thoughts on his value to the team and his ceiling? Well, if you asked Jaylan Tyson this question, he would have told you at his introductory press conference that he knew it was coming and he probably will say it again now. He’s a little bit more humbled and has a little bit more humility in the way he talks now. But he’s still a guy that has that swagger, has that confidence about him, and that’s necessary for the Persona that he has on the floor. But Jaylon Tyson said at his introductory press conference that he wanted to fight for a rotation position in his rookie season. And his former head coach at Cal, Mark Madsen, had a conversation with Kenny Atkinson who was like, don’t be surprised when it happens. Now we’re into his second season and Jalen Tyson has arrived. Chris, I know the productivity might have him in the most improved player of the year conversation, but how surprised? How have you been with his growth this season, especially knowing that he’s a guy that was in the gym literally all summer in Cleveland to the point where Donovan Mitchell has relentlessly talked about trying to get him to go home because he’s always working on his game.
Chris Fedor: Look, he. He leads the Cavs. The Cavs have a bunch of dudes that have been historically really good three point shooters. Sam Merrill is a prolific three point shooter. Donovan Mitchell speaks for itself. Darius Garland, same thing. Jalen Tyson leads the Cavs in three point percentage. Now, is he getting the volume of Donovan? No. Darius? No. Sam Merrill? No. But that level of three point shooting, nobody expected that. Not even the Cavs decision makers. That worked out Jaylon Tyson before the draft and f fell in love with him during that 3 on 3 workout that he had where he was the hardest playing dude. He was the most competitive dude. He kept inhaling offensive rebounds like he did everything. The tryhard stuff, the role player stuff. He did that in his three on three workout. That impressed the hell out of the team decision makers. But this, a guy who’s averaging double figures in scoring, a guy who’s getting consistent crunch time, fourth quarter minutes, a guy who’s hitting some of the biggest shots in the fourth quarter. No, I did not expect this. And I don’t think too many people around the organization expected this. Not this early. Not in year two, not after playing 453 total minutes in the regular season last year. Not after spending some time with the G League last year. Just because he needed meaningful game reps, because he needed consistent playing time. And that opportunity wasn’t there for. He didn’t get the on court development at the NBA level as a rookie. That all had to happen in the G League behind the scenes this off season in the Cavs. Player led organized runs and stuff like that. So credit to him. This has been an incredible find won by the front office. It’s been an incredible job by the player development staff. And it’s a testament to Jalen and, and all the work that, that he has done behind the scenes and the belief that he’s had in himself since day one. You have to have that. And Kenny Atkinson continues to say it, and I wrote it the other day. So much of this team we look at through the lens of, all right, what does it look like in April, May and June? Who can play in April, May and June? If you can’t play in April, May and June, how valuable are you? That went into the decision of Ty Jerome, that went into the decision of Isaac Okoro, that might go into the decision of Lonzo Ball here. Because this is about, can you help us in a playoff run? Can you be playable in the playoffs? Don’t want to say this because I don’t want it to be inflammatory. I don’t. But stylistically, the kind of player he is and the things that he does, the intensity that he plays with, the physicality that he plays with, the mentality that he has, like all of that stuff. Not from a skill standpoint, not from a talent standpoint, from a readiness standpoint. Ethan. I have more belief in Jalen Tyson as a playoff performer than I do Darius Garland and Evan Mobley at this point. I just do. And Jared Allen too, to be honest with you. Because, like, that’s the kind of dude that changes playoff series. That’s the kind of dude that, that would have fit on the Indiana Pacers last year, right? That’s the kind of dude that you could plop in Oklahoma City and you could see being successful. That’s the kind of dude that you could. And look, it doesn’t mean that he does everything right. It doesn’t. And it doesn’t mean that he doesn’t make these young player mistakes and it doesn’t mean that he’s going to continue to shoot 45% from three point range. But like, what was the thing that we talked about over and over and over again with Indiana? They’ve got dogs, they’ve got irritants, they’re tough minded, they’re physical, the lights aren’t too bright for them. The playoff level intensity and physicality is not too much for them. There are still questions to that level about Evan and Darius and Jarrett. There are not from a skill set standpoint, not from a talent perspective, that other kind of stuff, that other playoff related stuff. I don’t have those questions with Jalen I don’t like. I think that dude’s going to show up in the playoffs and it doesn’t mean, like I said, that he’s going to score 15 to 20 points and it doesn’t mean that he’s going to be efficient from the field, but he’s going to look like he belongs in that environment. It’s going to look like he’s not rattled, that he’s not phased, that he’s not bothered by the physicality, that he doesn’t get down on himself or anything like that. Like that dude. I don’t know if it’s going to be in the starting lineup coming off the bench, but if they get to the playoffs, and I do think we have to say if the. These days because they are 18 and 16 and it’s not guaranteed just for the sake of, you know, accuracy if they get to the playoffs like that dude is, is going to make an impact. He is. I have, I have that kind of belief in him and, and I believe Kenny has that kind of belief in him and I believe that, that Donovan Mitchell has that kind of belief in him and, and that’s very, very important, you know, to, to find a guy who was like outside the rotation last year and saying to yourself he is playoff viable. That’s big time for this organization, especially at, at the multiple positions that, that he could occupy in the ways that he can blend into some of these different lineups.
Ethan Sands: Jalen Sizer has been a player to come onto the scene and simply show up, right? There’s been different nicknames thrown at him, monikers thrown at him all season long. And the one that has stuck to him is rotation player, rotation guy. Kenny has talked about Jalen running around the practice facility and saying, rotation player coming through, rotation guy on the move. And like, it’s funny because his mold ability, his coachability is so important for this team. You mentioned it there. He can play the two through the four. But you also mentioned Donovan Mitchell and his belief of this guy, how they’ve talked about it through film sessions, how Donovan Mitchell has raved about Jaylon Tyson and his energy and his infectious attitude. And if we’re throwing out some takes here, Chris, Darius Garland has this level of joy that he plays with.
Chris Fedor: Yep.
Ethan Sands: There’s no one else other than Jalen Tyson that matches that level of joy that Darius Garland plays with. And Darius Garland can’t play with the same level of physicality that Jalen Tyson can. And that’s why I have him in both of the lineups that I think that the Cavs and Kenny Atkinson need to explore more. Because Jaylon Tyson has been a player that the Cavs have relied on so heavily, and Kenny Atkinson and Donovan Mitchell have coached so hard, and he’s simply been a sponge and responded to everything thrown at him, whether that was being plugged into the starting rotation, taken out of the starting rotation because it felt right and it’s been working and smiling all the way through it. And you never see a change in this guy’s demeanor, but the only time you might is when he’s being hard on himself for a mistake made. And then that’s the time that Kenny Atkinson and Donovan Mitchell are like, hey, we told you this was going to happen. But you have to keep being aggressive and learning from them. That’s how you get better. And we’ve already heard Donovan Mitchell talk about him Potentially being a $20 million a year player, and I feel like he’s well on his way to being in those conversations.
Chris Fedor: Ethan. I just feel like there are certain guys that are built for the moment, that are built for the playoffs. Andrew Nemhardt is built for the playoffs. He showed that for the Indiana Pacers last year. Tyrese Halliburton, to me, is built for the moment. He’s built for the playoffs. He doesn’t run from it. He isn’t phased. He isn’t rattled. And it doesn’t mean that he’s great every single night. It doesn’t mean that he doesn’t have some clunkers in his career in the playoffs. But there are just, like, different dudes that you feel like are built for. Jalen Brunson is Built for the playoffs. Kyrie Irving is built for the playoffs. There was always this thing about Kyrie as the regular season was going on and how he would just turn it in the playoffs. Playoff Kyrie and I feel like Jalen Tyson is, is built that way now. His game, his skill set, his experience, all of that has to still catch up. But like if you’re talking about having that as your foundation, that’s that’s where it all starts. That’s where it all needs to start. And, and Jalen has that.
Ethan Sands: Especially on a team that has been saying that it’s lacking mental toughness, mental maturity. A player who is his age, his experience. Two years into the NBA and we’re talking about him being a playoff ready player, I think it speaks volumes. And again, credit to Kobe Altman in the front office for the Cavs for finding another gem from the organization that has built it from the ground up.
Chris Fedor: And he doesn’t know anything other than play hard. That’s ingrained in him. That’s part of who he is and.
Ethan Sands: You need that, you need that so bad for a team especially like this. Okay, next question from our subtexters DJ in Colorado Springs. He circled back with this question. Chris. He said we didn’t get to him before but we’re going to get to you now. He said this in December 8th saying that we needed to re fire this question. Talking about the last couple of weeks the Cavs have been playing like crap. Is it possible they are missing Jared Allen and could it be he is actually the heart of the team? I know he’s labeled it soft, but I feel like he, along with Max Strus, is a stabilizing piece on the team. And we’ve had this conversation, right Chris, we’ve had this talk about who is a stabilizer. Who do you look to for the Cavs if they’re going to have a good game? That’s going to define how the Cavs play. And I think Jarrett Allen has continuously put his name into this conversation because of his effectiveness when he’s engaged on both ends of the ball. And that is particularly important because it has to be on both ends of the ball. And Darius Garland has talked about this in the past, saying that Jared Allen is our heart and soul, especially on the defensive end. That was something that Darius Garland said during the 2024, 2025 season and it’s carried over, right. Jared Allen played 82 games last year in the regular season, played all playoff games, ended up playing 91 games in a row for the Cleveland Cavaliers, the epitome of an ironman. And I wrote about this for today for the cleveland.com website about how Darius Garland and Jared Allen kind of go with this pairing. And it’s not just physically on the court, how they help each other offensively and defensively, but mentally. Darius Garland plays with this joy and Jared Allen needs this kind of mental peace and not having to think twice about too many things. And that allows Darius Garland to help him in that manner as well. And I think this is why the Cavs have been reluctant to go away from Darius and Jarrett. But this season especially is under a microscope, that if things don’t go the way they want to, which means Eastern Conference finals or higher, that changes will be made and likely the core four will be changed. But Chris, when it comes to how this Cavs team and how the organization and the fan base should look at Jared Allen team, do you think he can be deemed the heart and soul like Darius Garland has said?
Chris Fedor: I think it’s hard to label him that. There, there are some people inside the organization that believe that about him for sure. People call him the brains of the team. People call him the glue of the team. There are people inside the organization, Ethan, that believe the turnaround of this franchise actually started with Jarrett. Not when they drafted Evan Mobley, not when they traded for for Donovan Mitchell, not when Darius Garland finally became an All Star. It’s when they traded for Jarrett and they had a clear identity at both ends of the floor and he was integral to that identity. That’s when the transformation of this franchise really started. And people still believe that to this day. Look, they’ll point to his on off rating. They’ll point to the Cavs record with him in the lineup and without him in the lineup and how drastic the that is. Jarrett will be the first one to admit, I think other teammates will be the first ones to admit that he has bad nights, probably too many bad nights for, for what, what he’s supposed to be for this team. I mean, a no show against Houston where he just completely got pushed around. There are times where he’s not fully engaged, where he seems a little bit disinterested and disconnected because he’s not getting touches on the offensive end, because he’s not being involved on the offensive end, because he’s not being rewarded for all these little things that, that he does. But Donovan Mitchell touched on that last night following the game against San Antonio and he said, I saw that with Rudy, I saw that with Shaq, I saw that with Hakeem, I saw that with every big guy in, in NBA history, Dwight Howard, all these guys. So I think there’s some like grace that, that coaches and players give to Jarrett because they understand that his impact, it is felt on every single possession. But sometimes he’s not as involved as much as they would want him to be. And he’s not somebody who can just go grab the ball and dribble from the three point line all the way to the rim. Darius can do it. Donovan can do it. Evan Mobley to an extent can do it. So, so like how he has to play, he’s more reliant on Darius, he’s more reliant on Donovan. Mitchell, he’s more reliant on his teammates to continue to keep him engaged and involved. The other thing is, look his on court rating. With him on the floor, they outscore opponents by 5.1 points per 100 possessions. With him off the floor, that drops to 1.2. So there is a differential there with and without him. I have a hard time saying the heart and soul because I think if you talk about the core four and you talk about the future of this basketball team and all of the salary cap ramifications, he’s probably the quote, unquote, most expendable, one, because of his age, two, because of his contract, and three, because one of the most important players in this organization is eventually going to occupy that position full time. So if you’re thinking big picture, how do you label that guy that when all those other things are going on, sometimes he gets phased out, sometimes he doesn’t play late in games, fourth quarters, all that kind of stuff. So I think that’s probably a little bit overboard. But, but that in no way should diminish his importance to this team, his value to this team and the way that they function both offensively and defensively a lot is because of what he’s able to do. The other thing that I’ll say, Ethan, is that there are people inside this organization that believe the best version of the Cavs offensively is when they run things through their bigs. And then Donovan becomes more of a playmaker type and Darius becomes more of a distributor type. And Kenny even said it following the game against San Antonio. He said, look, I know Donovan can get 30 and 35, I know Darius can get 30 and 35, but. But they have to make their teammates better. That’s how they have to approach these games. How can I make my teammates consistently better? And you saw the approach that they took against San Antonio, even against San Antonio with Wemby, they’re like, we’re going to get the ball to Jarrett, we’re going to get the ball to Evan, we’re going to take our chances that kind of way. And the offense just felt different. The offense looked different. Everybody felt like they were more involved. And I think that’s ultimately what the Cavs want to be more consistently than what they have been in the early stages of this season. And that means that Jarrett has to be more involved and that means that Jarrett has to touch the ball more, and that means that Jarrett has to get more shot attempts than what he has gotten at the beginning of this season.
Ethan Sands: I agree. And to go on, your point about the record speaks for itself. The Cavs are 7. 1. When Jared Allen scores at least 16 points, then they’re 6 0. When he takes 10 or more shots. That just shows you his impact when it comes to having the ball in his hands, how the team is different. And of course we can also look to him being 30 against Victor Wembanyama in his career. Sure, small sample size, of course, but against a player that could potentially be the next face of the NBA, I think it’s telling that he averages about 25 and 10 in those contests. So Jarrett Allen is definitely a fixture of this team. And it will will look different, substantially different, if the Cavs have to go away from either him or Darius Garland depending on how the season goes. But with all that being said, that’ll wrap up today’s episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. But remember to become a Cavs insider and interact with Chris, me and Jimmy by subscribing to Subtext. This is where you can find Send in your weekly hey Chris questions and get a shout out like our guys did today. But the only way to do so Sign up for a 14 day free trial or visit cleveland.comcavs and click on the blue bar at the top of the page. If you don’t like it, that’s fine. All you have to do is text the word stop. It’s easy, but we can tell you that the people who sign up stick around because this is the best way to get in side of coverage on the Cavs from me, Chris and Jimmy. This isn’t just our podcast, it’s your podcast. And the only way to have your voice heard is through subtext. Y’ all be safe. We out.