CLEVELAND, Ohio — In this episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast, Ethan Sands and Chris Fedor dig into whether the Cleveland Cavaliers need to make a substantial trade to reach the Eastern Conference finals.
Takeaways:
The Core Dilemma: “Will They” vs. “Should They” Make a Trade?
The central question facing the Cavaliers is whether the current roster is sufficient to reach the Eastern Conference Finals. Chris Fedor framed this as two separate issues: whether the team should make a substantial trade and whether they will. He believes they should at least consider it, citing personal doubts about the playoff readiness of key players compared to contenders like the Celtics or Nuggets. However, he predicts the team will not make a major move. This distinction highlights the conflict between a belief in the current roster’s potential and the pressing need to prove its capability in high-stakes situations. The front office’s faith is pitted against the unanswered questions that emerged from past playoff performances.
Front Office Stance: Belief in the Current Core and Lack of Viable Deals
The Cavaliers’ front office, led by Koby Altman and Mike Gansey, is expected to stand pat at the trade deadline primarily because they still believe in the assembled roster. They reportedly feel the team has underperformed relative to its true potential and view the eventual return of an injured Max Strus as a significant mid-season “acquisition.” Furthermore, there is a strong sense that a trade that would genuinely improve the team is not available. The organization places a high value on players like Darius Garland and Jarrett Allen, and they do not believe potential offers from struggling teams like the Sacramento Kings or Washington Wizards would provide a return that justifies breaking up their core.
The Human Element and Mid-Season Integration Challenges
The podcast stressed that basketball fit is not the only factor in trade decisions. The Cavaliers organization is reportedly hesitant to disrupt the locker room after learning difficult lessons from integrating De’Andre Hunter mid-season. The challenge of getting a new player acclimated with limited practice time is a major concern. Trading away homegrown talents like Jarrett Allen and Darius Garland, who were groomed by the organization, would represent a significant cultural shift and could negatively impact team morale. This “human element” and the organizational memory of past struggles with mid-season chemistry experiments serve as powerful arguments for continuity and patience with the current group.
Hypothetical “Win-Now” Trades Explored
Despite the likelihood of the team standing pat, the hosts explored several hypothetical trades designed to improve the team’s immediate championship chances. Chris Fedor proposed two major trades centered on Darius Garland, aiming to acquire more “playoff-ready” talent to match Donovan Mitchell’s timeline. The first was trading Garland to Portland for two-time champion Jrue Holiday, prioritizing his defensive prowess and championship DNA over Garland’s youth. The second, more sensational hypothetical, was trading Garland to the Dallas Mavericks for Kyrie Irving. This move was justified by aligning Garland’s youth with Dallas’s future while giving the “win-now” Cavs a proven co-star for Mitchell, albeit with a shorter contention window.
Everything Hinges on the “Donovan Mitchell Timeline”
Ultimately, all roster decisions are overshadowed by Donovan Mitchell’s contract, which has two years remaining. The franchise’s overriding goal is to convince Mitchell that Cleveland is where he can win a championship. Any potential trade would be evaluated based on whether it advances that goal. Acquiring a veteran like Jrue Holiday or Kyrie Irving would shorten the team’s long-term “runway” of contention that players like Garland and Evan Mobley provide. However, such a move would be intended to maximize the team’s championship odds within the immediate window of Mitchell’s contract. The front office must balance building for the future against the urgent need to field a finals-caliber team now.
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Transcript
NOTE: This transcript was generated by artificial intelligence and could contain misspellings and errors.
Ethan Sands: What up Cavs Nation? I’m your host, Ethan Sands, and I’m back with another episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. And joining me today, Chris Fedor. And we’re here with, of course, another episode that is dedicated to questions that are answered from Subtext subscribers. We where you can become an insider alongside us with insight directly from us to your phones. All you have to do is sign up for a 14 day free trial. Or you can go to cleveland.com Cavs and click on the blue bar at the top of the page. But without further ado, this question comes from Matt in Nashville. He asks, will this team need a substantial train to. To get to the Eastern Conference finals? Feels that way to me. This basically means to me, are the Cavs going to shake this up before the trade deadline this season? Chris, what you think?
Chris Fedor: I think there are two different ways to look at this, Ethan. I think it’s, are they going to put my reporter hat on, get into all the different conversations that I’ve had over the last week, week and a half about that and should they? I think those are two different things. I do, because if you’re asking me personally, I don’t look at it the same way that Kobe Altman does. I don’t look at it the same way that General manager Mike Gansey does. I’ve, I’ve been on record saying that I have questions about some important players on this roster and how they can perform when you get to the playoffs, and those questions haven’t been answered. To me, I still have those questions. I still have those doubts. So because of that, I don’t have those same doubts with guys from the New York Knicks. Okay. I don’t have those same doubts with guys from the Boston Celtics or the Denver Nuggets or the Oklahoma City Thunder. I don’t. It’s just different. So I do believe that they should consider it. I do believe that they should. That is all under the, the, the assumption that there’s actually a trade out there that they could pull off in the situation that they’re in, the financial situation that they’re in, that can make them better. Everybody can go on the trade machine right now and you can find a workable legal deal like, oh my gosh, it works. Green came up instead of red this time. It can happen. Like the Cavs can do that. They can make trades. It’s just complicated and they have to get creative. And then you have to get into the point of if I find a deal and it is actually legal under the rules that the Cavs are operating under as the only second apron team, does it make them better? That becomes difficult, right? Because if. If you’re having these general conversations and you’re saying, all right, if the Cavs consider the possibility of listening when it comes to Darius Garland, who are the Darius suitors? And I start with Darius, but there’s also those same conversations, theoretically, that I believe they should have at least internal discussions about Jared Allen, too, about DeAndre Hunter, maybe Dean Wade, depending on what they can get back. Right. So that’s. That’s all dependent on. On what can they pull off here and what can they get back? And does that make them a better basketball team? They’re not trading Evan Mo. Okay? They’re not trading Donovan Mitchell. But Darius and Jarrett are not Donovan and Evan. Okay? They’re not. So if you are of the belief that they should at least consider it and they should at least listen, then you start having those conversations about, okay, like, what are the logical landing spots for Jarrett, who needs a player like Jared Ellie, and what would that team be willing to give up in order to get Jarrett? And do the Cavs get enough back in return that they can say, that’s a step forward for us, that that’s improvement for us. DeAndre Hunter. I’m told that they’ve already gotten offers for DeAndre, including one that they rebuffed Dean Wade. Same thing. I’m told that they’ve gotten offers for Dean Wade, even going back to the offseason. They got offers for Dean Wade that they rebuffed because they just didn’t believe that it was going to make them a better basketball team. So the reason why I say I don’t think they’re going to number one, I think they believe in this group. I believe that they believe that they’re better. That was a lot of believe right there. But that’s how they’re looking at this. They’re saying to themselves, we know we haven’t played like a good team, but we still believe we are a good team and we’ll eventually show that we’re a good team. And DeAndre’s not going to play like this all season long, and. And Darius is going to find it to a higher level, and Evan Mobley is. Is going to look better and better as the season goes on, as he gets more comfortable in this role, and he’s further removed from this calf issue and. And Alonzo Ball is not going to shoot like this all season long. And like all of these things and they’re Saying to themselves, well, Max Strust could be our trade deadline acquisition, essentially, we could view it that kind of way. So the Cavs believe in this group, they still think they’re a good team and they don’t think they’ve performed bad enough on the whole to start making drastic changes and panicky moves. The other reason why I think they’re going to more or less stand pat and not do the big roster shakeup that, that a lot of people are looking at is because this Easter conference that they’re playing in right now is very different than Eastern conferences of the past. And it’s certainly not the Western Conference. And because they like Darius, they value Darius, they like Jarrett, they value Jarrett and they think that the value that they bring to this organization is not going to be matched by what they can get in a trade. So let’s look at the Darius potential destinations, right? Just hypothetically, because this is what they’re looking at right now. So Sacramento has an interest, Washington has an interest. Historically, the Minnesota Timberwolves have had an interest in Darius. Like, you go through all these different potential landing spots for a point guard like Darius and it’s the same thing, I guess, with Trey Young and, and Lamelo and, and John Morant and some of these other point guards that, that are theoretically available. And you say to yourself, okay, so if it’s the Kings that are interested, what the hell did they possibly have to give up to the Cavs that is going to make the Cavs a better basketball team? What do they have where they gonna give? Like Keon Ellis and Keegan Murray and some of these other scraps like Sacramento is 8 and 24. You want a whole bunch of players from an 8 and 24 team when you’re chasing a championship, who there in Sacramento are the Cavs going to get that is going to make that much of an impact that they break up what they already have here? All right, so you say the Washington, what, What are they going to give? They’re 7 and 24. Like, no, what are you going to trade Darius for Chris Middleton? You trade Darius for CJ McCollum? Like, come on, be serious here. And then you keep going down the list and you say, hey, Minnesota, Minnesota’s 21 and 12, they have good players. Well, yeah, guess what? They want to keep their good players. And the guys that make around the same salary as Darius or Jarrett, if you want to throw him in the same kind of conversation, chances are those teams want to keep them because they’re good players. So I I just don’t think that it’s the same conversation that we’ve had for the last however many years. I just don’t think there’s going to be a trade offer that is going to blow the Cavs away. And I think they still value Jarrett and Darius enough and they believe in this team, in this core group that they put together enough that there’s not going to be that. That offer out there that they get that is going to blow them away and get them to say yes.
Ethan Sands: And Chris, I think you’re absolutely right. I’m in the same boat as you. I think they’re going to stand pat. Obviously, Max Strust playing back around the trade deadline potentially is definitely another acquisition, quote unquote, that would help them. But I also think the substantial difference of how this team would look, it would operate differently without Darius Garland, without Jared Allen, is part of this. But the other part of this is they also now have experience of feeling the weight of change in the middle of a season. Loser Terrence Lavert and George Liang, two players who could have been not playable in playoff scenarios but brought joy, brought intensity, brought fun to the Cavs. For DeAndre Hunter, who the Cavs thought would elevate them in the playoff series, they recognized the difficulty of losing those kind of players. Could you imagine what this Cavs team would feel at the trade deadline if they went away from guys that they basically groomed to be the players that they are? Jared Allen and Darius Garland? The other portion of this, Chris, is they recognize how hard it was to get DeAndre Hunter up to speed at the midway point through the season, quote unquote. We know it’s not actually. But having to bring in players and then have to say, hey, you’re taking the role of Darius Garland, you’re taking the role of Jared Allen. You’re stepping into some huge shoes. We’re not going to have time to acclimate you because we’re not going to have enough practices to do so. Just like what happened with DeAndre Unser, I think it’s a difficult line that the Cavs are trying to walk because they understand and as you mentioned, Chris, Kobe Altman and Mike Gansey and Brandon Weems have to think about not just the basketball, but how these players are going to fit, how the rest of the organization is going to feel. We’ve already seen how DeAndre Hunter has played and looked different without his best friend in Ty Jerome, and it’s only been a few months of that experiment. Right. So I do think that there’s levels to these conversations that are not just basketball related. But since we are a basketball podcast and we want to get into these hypotheticals, even though we don’t know if they’re actually going to work or if the Cavs or the opposing team would even go for these, here are a couple that I put together over the last couple of weeks. Jared Allen being traded to the New Orleans Pelicans for Herb Jones and Yves Missy. DeAndre Hunter being traded to the Milwaukee Bucks for Bobby Portis and Andre Jackson. Darius Garland and DeAndre Hunter being traded to the Minnesota Timberwolves for Jaden McDaniels, Nas Reed, Dante DiVincenzo, Lonzo Ball to the Brooklyn Nets for Dahron Sharpe, Sadiq Bay to the Cleveland Cavaliers, from the New Orleans Pelicans for Dean Wade, Dennis Schroeder and Devin Carter to the Cavs from the kings for DeAndre Hunter. These are all ones that I know would run through the trade machine and would be successful and the Cavs would have to jump through some hoops to make some of them happen. But again, these are moves that maybe the opposition might look at it and be like, are you kidding? Are you serious? And then there’s some of these that the Cavs would look at you and be like, we haven’t seen the potential of this player. Lonzo Ball might be one of them. We haven’t seen what they look like fully healthy this season. Darius Garland might be one of them. Jared Allen have both been injured throughout different portions of the season. So I do think that we have to be extremely careful when we talk about trade and trade value. But we have talked on this podcast at length ad nauseam that this is a team that is more likely to make moves in the off season when players contracts are expiring, when players contracts are getting to the year of extension or whether they should be moved. This is a team that operates in that manner and they’ve seen the negative impact that can happen when they make a move mid season and the difficulty of managing those different moves.
Chris Fedor: I have said it a few different times, Ethan, that one of the questions that I have about the Cavs, maybe not one that team decision makers have about the Cavs, but one of the questions that I have is about playoff readiness just across the roster. Who, who is on the same timeline as Donovan Mitchell when it comes to competing for a championship? You need a certain type of player. You need a certain type of dude, right? That’s a question that, that I have personally. So if I’m Them, I am looking at the possibility of, of bringing in more playoff ready guys. Whether you’ve seen them do it or you believe that they have that makeup or they have that mentality that that’s the only way that I would even explore the possibility of, of Jarrett or Darius or even DeAndre to that same level. What I’m getting back in return, I have to believe is going to impact my chances of winning a championship. I have to believe that those guys are more playoff ready and they’re more on the Donovan Mitchell timeline than some of these other other guys are. So I have two fun ones that. All that being said, I found two potential hypothetical Darius Garland trades that, that I like and that’s it. And I haven’t found too many for Jarrett, although the one that you brought up with New Orleans I think is fascinating and I think it’s interesting. And they, they have been a Jarrett pursuer in the past and, and the Bobby portis one for DeAndre Hunter. I believe that the Cavs could do that if they wanted it. I do. I don’t think they would do it. I still think they, they believe that there’s more with DeAndre and they wanted DeAndre for a couple of years now. So I think it would take a little bit more for them to give up on him. But look like Milwaukee wants guys like DeAndre Hunter. Milwaukee wants guys that they think are more helpful pieces to their, their quest, whether it’s foolish or not. Their quest of trying to keep Giannis in Milwaukee and keep him happy and see if they can remain competitive. And Bobby Portis is one of those guys that I think in the right deal they’d probably move on from. But the two hypothetical ones that, that I found with Darius for myself that I like enough to even bring up. I can’t find a Sacramento one that I like. I can’t find a Washington one that I like. Can’t find an Orlando one that I think is logical based on them going out this off season and bringing in Desmond Bain. Right. I can’t find like a Chicago one that I like. I could see them having some kind of interest in Darius given the style that they play, given the fact that Kobe White is going to be a free agent at the end of this year. The Minnesota one I think gets pretty complicated, honestly. But. But I have two. And I understand that there are drawbacks to both of these. But in both of these cases, I am admitting that I am hypothetically. Emphasis on hypothetically. I am hypothetically giving up that the exciting years to come potentially of Darius for the readiness and the timeline matching of these players when it comes to Donovan Mitchell, because I do believe that because Evan Mobley hasn’t taken the leap that, that the Cavs were hoping that he was going to take, that everybody expected him to take, that. It has to be more the Donovan Mitchell timeline right now than it does the Evan Moatley timeline, because I don’t think he’s ready yet. So with that being said, and I understand there are drawbacks, both of these, I think are fun. Darius to Portland for Drew Holiday as a general framework, and I understand Drew’s 35 and he’s dealing with an injury, but that dude is a champion, a two time champion. And you know that he is a playoff riser and a playoff performer, and you know that he can handle the physicality, the intensity and all that kind of stuff. So you’re giving up years of Darius, years of potential fun years of Darius, and maybe even prime years of Darius for the readiness and the championship DNA of, of Jrue Holiday. The other one is Darius Garland for Kyrie Irving. Those are the only two that I have found that I think are mutually beneficial. And in the Kyrie one I think is logical because look, they have Cooper Flag and he’s the face of the franchise. And I know that there’s this thought of, hey, let’s see what it looks like with Anthony Davis, Cooper Flag and Kyrie Irving. No, that’s not the future for the Dallas Mavericks. So if they could flip Kyrie for the next three to five years of Darius to grow alongside Cooper Flag, then all of a sudden things look a little bit different in, in Dallas. And I don’t think I have to explain it from a Cavis perspective. I don’t. Those are the only two that I have found that I think would be mutually beneficial and logical for the Cavs. That’s how difficult it is, I think, for these teams that are reaching out to the Cavs, saying, hey, do you have any appetite for trading Darius Garland? Hey, do you have any appetite for trading Jared Allen? It’s hard to find these deals that you’re like, yes, those make the Cavs significantly better. Yes, those increase the Cavs championship chances. So again, hypothetical for fun. Darius for Kyrie, Darius for Drew Holiday. That’s where I’m at.
Ethan Sands: For starters. I don’t think you have to explain to anybody the Jrue Holiday experiment that you mentioned because of his defensive acumen, his intensity, the physicality that troubled the Cavs when they played against the Boston Celtics in the playoffs a couple of years ago. I think that all makes sense. But the Kyrie Irving one becomes more complicated. Not because of what it would mean for the Cavs, but what it would mean for Dallas. There’s two things here. One, the Dallas Mavericks traded away Luka Doncic because they didn’t think he could hold up defensively in a playoff series. It’s hard to tell you. I don’t know if Darius Garland’s an upgrade in that category. I think Chris would admit might be going the opposite direction. But the other portion of this is the Dallas Mavericks have been answering calls about Anthony Davis.
Chris Fedor: Yep.
Ethan Sands: So if you were to retool this entire Dallas Mavericks roster, say the Dallas Mavericks go away from Anthony Davis and get back Zachary Ricochet from the Atlanta Hawks, and then they trade Kyrie Irving and get back Darius Garland. Then you have the youthful years of Zachary, Richard, say Cooper Flagg and Darius Garland. And no, I don’t think anybody’s necessarily scared of that team in a playoff series, especially in the Western Conference right now. But we’re talking about a 19 year old. Zachary Ricochet is 20 years old and the Atlanta Hawks are already taking calls on him because they don’t think he’s developed as well as they might have liked. He’s 20 years old and a 25 year old. When we talk about a team that would be full of potential and as you mentioned, Chris and I think this is really important, prime years of these players, that would be interesting. Sure, you would have to rely on Derek Lively, Daniel Gafford to become competent centers in the Western Conference. Maybe a stretch, but I think that would be the most interesting thing to happen. And we know Dallas even going away from their previous general manager are in cahoots to get better or make moves in some capacity this season. And I’m definitely interested to see if the Cavs are suitors. Obviously this is a stretch, it’s hypothetical. But Kyrie back to the Cavs, Darius Garland to the Mavericks and what it would mean for the Mavericks in future years is definitely interesting. Yes, we can talk about the Kyrie to the Cavs particular if you would like to.
Chris Fedor: He’s recovering from a torn acl. Totally understand that. Have no idea if he’s going to play this year. Have no idea if he would be ready by the time the playoffs roll around and what kind of physical shape he would be in and what kind of basketball shape he would be in and what kind of mental state he would be in going into the playoffs, like coming off that injury and going Straight into the physicality and the intensity and the competitiveness of the playoffs. I don’t know that. And that’s obviously a big time wild card. And that’s why these decision makers have more information than I do and they get more background information than I do and stuff like that. But even if then you, you get Kyrie next year and like, if you want a real shot at it, Donovan Mitchell, Kyrie Irving, together with the other stuff that would still remain here in Cleveland, your window would probably be more closed. What’s the phrase that Kobe Altman likes to use? The Runway. The. The Runway is, is longer right now, he believes, because of the futures and Darius Garland’s potential evolution and Evan Mobley’s potential evolution and the fact that there’s still some improvements that both of those guys can make and they’re under contract and they’re still young and they’re going into their prime. So Kobe Altman likes to say that the Runway is a little bit longer. Both of these hypothetical moves would make the Runway shorter, but I think it would give them a better chance in that Runway, if that makes sense.
Ethan Sands: And Chris, we could have this conversation if we wanted to, but I don’t know if the contention window is more than two years, because as we’ve continued to mention on this podcast, that’s what’s left on Donovan Mitchell’s contract and everything, and I mean everything is based on that. And whether or not he feels like this is the place to come back to, to try and win a championship and whether or not he has the players around him to do so. And the other caveat to this whole Kyrie Irving situation, Mark J. Spears From Anscape and ESPN has reported previously, dating back to November, I think 17th, that Kyrie Irving is going through training in preparation to making a return this season. So that would be huge. And again, we are not saying that Kyrie Irving is coming back to Cleveland. If you wanted that to be a headline of this podcast, it probably won’t be. But I do think that there are so many different moves that are interesting and fun, especially when it comes to Kyrie Irving coming back to Cleveland, potentially fighting for his second ring without LeBron and both Donovan and Kyrie being in the conversation for second best cavalier of all time. There’s that. And then you have the conversation of, does Kyrie Irving have to sage Rocket arena if he ever comes back?
Chris Fedor: I mean, Kyrie makes right around the same amount as Darius. And that’s part of the reason why I brought him up specifically and because I think the trajectory of Dallas does not align with Kyrie at this point anymore. The trajectory of Darius, with what Dallas is moving toward, that aligns a little bit better. And the trajectory of, of Kyrie and where he’s already at in his career, like, I think that lines up with where the Cavs are right now. They’re a second apron team. They’re the most expensive team in the NBA. I don’t think it’s championship or bust, but I do think it’s finals or bust. And I do think it’s continue to try and keep Donovan Mitchell happy, engaged and wanting to believe that this team, this organization, has a chance to put him in position to compete for championships. So again, it’s, it’s just something fun. It’s a fun exercise to consider and I think it, it all goes back to this, what we said at the very beginning of, of this question that came in for, hey, Chris. These decisions when it comes to Dean Wade, DeAndre Hunter, Jared Allen, Darius Garland, like anybody that, that you could throw out, that is quote unquote touchable compared to, to Evan and, and Donovan, who have a different status within this organization. These decisions for, for this front office are very, very complicated. They are very, very delicate. And unless they get into a situation where, where they start to believe, like, hey, this group can’t do it, it’s not going to happen. We’re just not good enough unless they get into that kind of position. I find it hard to believe that they’ll do something drastic at the trade deadline. But there’s a lot of time right now between December 30 in the trade deadline and there’s a lot of basketball that has to be played. And I do think that there’s a lot that this group itself has to prove and show to these team decision makers. And they got to play a lot better than what they have in the first portion of this season. Because it’s one thing to just sit there and say, yeah, we believe in this group that we put together, but, but you have to have enough evidence of that. You have to have a level of basketball that that backs up that, that belief. It can’t just be blind faith because, hey, we put this roster together, you know, you have to see like, yes, this works. Here’s why it works. Here’s the evidence. Here are the games that we won, that, that tells us this. Here are the games where we played well, that tells us this and all.
Ethan Sands: That kind of stuff. Zachary Richard say Cooper flag Darius Garland potential. Yeah, that would be something especially when you talk about the size and the skill of both Cooper Flagg and Zachary Ricochet and then the gravity and the offensive skill set of Darius Garlett. I think that would be crazy, especially if you still have the lob threats of Derek Lively and Daniel Gafford. Anyway, we’re talking about the Cavs and how these trades are interesting, but this is definitely something that the Cavs will have to keep an eye on. Maybe closer to the end of the season depending on how Kyrie Irving heals up, whether he comes back to play, whether or not the Mavericks make a move mid season for Zachary Ricochet, sending Anthony Davis to the Atlanta Hawks and seeing how that changes the contention window for the Hawks in the Eastern Conference. Again, there’s so many moving pieces that still have yet to be made, and the Cavs are waiting to get themselves back to full strength before they make any drastic changes to the roster. Because as Chris mentioned, as I’ve mentioned as the organization has beat down on every single drum, they believe that this roster can get them where they want to go, but they need to see it in the playoffs. We need to see it in the playoffs. And I think that is valid, especially with how the Cavs have played in the most recent playoff series against the Indiana Pacers, them not being healthy, them not being healthy in the Boston Celtics series, getting Dean Wade back mid series, Jaron Allen not playing in that series. I think we can look back to the New York Knicks series, as long series that the Cavs have played together with this core four where they’ve been fully healthy and still that team was completely different than it is now. And I think this Cavs team and the organization wants to look forward and see where they are come April, May and June of 2026. But with all that being said, that’ll wrap up the today’s episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. But remember to become a Cavs insider and interact with Chris, me and Jimmy by subscribing to Subtext. This is where you can send in your weekly hey Chris questions and get a shout out like our guys did today. But the only way to do so sign up for a 14 day free trial or visit cleveland.com Cavs if you and click on the blue bar at the top of the page. If you don’t like it, that’s fine. All you have to do is text the word stop. It’s easy, but we can tell you that the people who sign up stick around because this is the best way to get insider coverage on the cavs from me, Chris and Jimmy. This isn’t just our podcast. It’s your podcast. And the only way to have your voice heard is through subtext. Y’ all be safe. We out.