CLEVELAND, Ohio — In this episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast, Ethan Sands and Chris Fedor break down the Cavs’ “ugly” 113-108 victory over a severely undermanned Denver Nuggets team.
Takeaways:
An “Ugly” Win Against a Depleted Opponent
The Cavaliers’ 113-108 victory over the Denver Nuggets was characterized as an “ugly win” and not a quality performance. The hosts concluded that the win was largely attributable to the Nuggets being severely undermanned, missing four of their five starters, including superstar Nikola Jokic. This game was compared to other unconvincing wins against depleted teams, suggesting the Cavs did not play up to their own standard. Despite turning it on defensively in the fourth quarter to secure the win, the overall performance was seen as a cause for concern and the subject for a difficult film session, rather than a point of pride.
Frontcourt Fails to Capitalize on Size Advantage
A major point of criticism was the failure of big men Jarrett Allen and Evan Mobley to dominate a Nuggets team lacking a true center. Despite a clear size advantage, the duo was not assertive enough offensively, combining for just 16 points. The speakers noted that the Cavs should have exploited this matchup by consistently attacking the paint, where they were highly efficient early on. Instead, the team settled for an excessive number of 3-pointers in the third quarter, allowing Denver’s zone defense to dictate the flow of the game. This was viewed as a significant missed opportunity to leverage one of the team’s biggest strengths.
Lonzo Ball’s Role Has Become Situational
Lonzo Ball’s role on the team has been redefined as situational, dependent on the health of others. After being a healthy scratch for two games, he was given minutes only because other players were out with injuries. While he made a positive impact and looked effective, the consensus was that he has not been consistent enough this season to warrant a regular rotation spot when the team is at full strength. His role moving forward should be as an injury fill-in, and his playing time should not come at the expense of more impactful players who have earned their minutes through consistent performance, such as Craig Porter Jr.
Winning Streak Tied to Tough Lineup Decisions
The team’s recent three-game winning streak is directly linked to Kenny Atkinson’s difficult but necessary lineup changes. These decisions include moving De’Andre Hunter to a sixth-man role, starting Dean Wade, and, most notably, inserting Craig Porter Jr. into the rotation while reducing Lonzo Ball’s minutes. The hosts praised the professionalism of the players, who have accepted changing roles without complaint. This ability to handle adversity and prioritize team goals over individual ones is highlighted as a sign of the team’s maturity and strong chemistry, which could be beneficial long-term.
The Emergence of the Mitchell and Porter Jr. Duo
The podcast highlighted the emergence of a highly effective backcourt pairing in Donovan Mitchell and Craig Porter Jr. This duo has been instrumental in anchoring the second unit, boasting a net rating of plus-15.5 and proving their value on both ends of the floor. Porter Jr.’s ability to penetrate the defense, create for others, and take on tough defensive assignments relieves pressure on Mitchell. This combination has been the catalyst for game-changing runs in the fourth quarter of recent wins, suggesting Coach Atkinson has found one of his most effective tandems.
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Transcript
NOTE: This transcript was generated by artificial intelligence and could contain misspellings and errors.
Ethan Sands: What up Cavs Nation? I’m your host, Ethan Sands, and I’m back with another episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. And joining me Today, Chris Fedor, cleveland.com Cavs beat reporter and we’re coming to you after The Cavs latest win, 113, 108 over the extremely undermanned Denver Nuggets. The Cavs have collected their 20th win of the season. Chris, I want to start here. It was an ugly win. This was not a win that the Cavs are necessarily proud of other than tallying another one in the win column. What did you take away from tonight’s game?
Chris Fedor: It wasn’t about them tonight. The win was more about what Denver was missing. And it’s unfortunate that these kinds of games continue to happen for the Cavs. The Portland game, the Golden State game, Charlotte, Chicago. It felt like this game was very similar to those, except for the difference was the Cavs found a way in the fourth quarter. They they turned it on defensively, they changed some things defensively. They made enough timely shots and timely plays on the offensive end of the floor. But this was not a quality performance by the Cavs. This was not up to Cavs standard. This is not how they played the other day against Phoenix or the other night against San Antonio when this winning streak started. They won this game because they played against the Denver Nuggets, who were missing four of their five starters, including arguably the best player in the NBA, Nicola Jokic. So a lot that the Cavs have to work through after this one. I don’t think the film session is going to be very pretty for them on Saturday.
Ethan Sands: So Chris, one of the main things that we’ve talked about on this podcast is Jared Allen has not been in for closing minutes for a majority of the year and dating back to last season as well, that changed over the last couple of games. But in particular tonight, Jared Allen was in with Evan Mobley, DeAndre Hunter, Darius Garland and Donovan Mitchell to close the game. What did you think about how the Cavs were able to use that lineup, but in particular Evan Mobley and Jared Allen have such a significant advantage in the Painted area against a Denver Nuggets team that was not only without Nikole Jokic, but also without Jonas Valentiunas as well? Those two guys being out the Denver Nuggets didn’t really have a true center, and Jared Allen and Evan Mobley Both only had eight points. They combined for 25 rebounds. Did you think that they took enough advantage of this matchup?
Chris Fedor: No, not at all. I Mean, if you would have looked at the game going into it, Ethan, you would have said, okay, the Cavs can probably score about 70 points in the paint tonight. They have a distinct advantage. The tallest guy that Denver has available is 6 foot 10 and that guy is not nearly on the same level. Zeke Najee is not nearly on the same level as Jared Allen or Evan Mobley. And, and this should have been a game where the Cavs exploited that over and over and over again, where they took advantage of it over and over and over again, where they continued to force feed Jared Allen and, and Evan Mobley and I know Kenny Hackinson said after the game and Donovan Mitchell touched on it after the game, Denver shifted to a zone and that kind of made things a little bit more difficult for the Cavs offense. It took them out of rhythm. They didn’t have any opportunity to go to some of their pick and roll stuff that is so advantageous for somebody like Jared Allen. Yeah, I mean, I, I do get that to some extent, but I just don’t think you can allow a team like Denver to dictate terms like that. In the third quarter where the Cavs almost gave the game away, where they are outscored 38 to 26. They took like 23 shots early in that quarter and 14 of them were from three point range against a team that had no centers, no NBA quality center playing no NBA quality center that was available in. Jared Allen’s supposed to be one of the most important players on this roster and Evan Mobley is supposed to be one of the most important players on this roster. So I do think they need to continue to make it a point of emphasis to get Jared involved and keep him involved throughout the course of the game and get Evan involved and keep him involved throughout the course of the game. And the Cavs certainly didn’t do enough of that throughout all four quarters. I do think it was interesting that Kenny went back to Jarrett in the fourth quarter. It worked. He got a man sized rebound and offensive rebound that led to a dunk that gave them a four point cushion late in the game. That was really, really important. I do feel like, you know, he was able to protect the paint and Evan Mobley was able to protect the paint as well and allow the Cavs to blitz Jamal Murray and be comfortable enough sending that second defender at Jamal Murray. I also think that some of this had to do with the fact that Jaylon Tyson didn’t have a great game. He didn’t have a huge impact on this one. So it was easier for Kenny Atkinson to justify going back to the two bigs. And this is why I’ve said throughout the course of the season, Ethan, when it comes to these fourth quarter lineup decisions, it’s situational, it’s game flow, it’s matchup related, it’s what are the circumstances surrounding going to Jarrett, going away from Jarrett, going small, going big. Whatever the case may be, what is the situation call for, what’s the feel of the game at that given moment? And I think Kenny Atkinson made the right call to go to Jared Allen because I do think he had a positive impact in the final four minutes of this game. Even though, like I said, they, they went away from him and they went away from Evan a little bit too much considering how much success they were having around the rim at one point in the game. I think through the first three quarters of the game there were 17 of 21 shooting on rim attempts. Like that’s what they should have done against Denver and they should have done that over and over and over again because they just didn’t have the capable bodies to deal with what the Cavs should have been able to do offensively.
Ethan Sands: Just to correct myself slightly, Jared Allen, Evan Mobley combined for 23 rebounds. But what I’m very intrigued by was Jared Allen after the game saying it wasn’t his turn if there was a time for it to be your turn. If it was against the Denver Nuggets without Nikola Jokic and Jonas Valanchunas.
Chris Fedor: Right?
Ethan Sands: And he said he was trying to make the right play and make the right reads. And he did. Blake Griffin on Prime Video highlighted this after the game as well, just how Jared Allen caught a pass and immediately shifted it to Lonzo Ball in the corner. And yes, we’ll get there in a second. But that’s something that Evan and Jarrett have been doing better this season. They’ve been more of a passing threat when it comes to getting the ball in half, roll, getting in the pocket. But I think they also have to get back to their offensive domination where Jared Allen and Evan Mobley are reliable with the ball in their hands. And Kenny Atkinson talked about this a little bit after the game, how he was dissatisfied with how they were handling the Rock. Obviously Jared Allen had two turnovers in tonight’s game, Evan Mobley missing shots because he couldn’t hold onto the ball. These kinds of things can’t happen for guys that are supposed to be so reliable with the ball in their hands. And something that we’ve praised them for on this podcast is just having the soft hands and being able to keep it in their possession. But, Chris, I think the next portion of this is Lonzo Ball getting re acclimated after two games off being DNP coach’s decision. What did you see? And obviously with Sam Merrill and Dean Wade being out, it made sense for them to try and go to Lonzo and for Kenny Atkinson to, at the beginning of the first half, try and find someone capable of slowing down Jamal Murray because he was torching them. He had 28 points in the first half alone. What did you see from Lonzo Ball, the decision that was made and how he re acclimated himself after having two games off?
Chris Fedor: Well, Kenny didn’t have a choice, but. But I think this speaks to something bigger, Ethan. I think this is. This is how the Cavs should use Lonzo moving forward. This is the role that he should have. They gave him a consistent role coming off the bench at the beginning of the season, and he didn’t do enough with it. He wasn’t impactful, not consistently anyway, and he wasn’t doing the things that. That Craig Porter Jr. Is doing for this team. So I think at some point you had to Reward Craig Porter Jr. For, for all of the things that. That he was doing in the way that he was impacting the game. But this is. This is what it’s going to have to be for Lonzo. Are our guys going to be missing then? If so, you go to Lonzo because he’s been pushed further down the depth chart. And if he’s guys guy number 11 or guy number 12 in this rotation now because other guys have just been better than him this season, then this is what it is. Your turn comes when circumstances dictate that your turn comes, and then you have to make the most of it. But your turn comes when other guys are missing. His turn can’t come at the expense of Craig. It can’t. His turn cannot come at the expense of Naquan Tomlin. His turn can’t come at the expense of Jaylen Tyson or Dean Wade. So when this team is at full strength, I don’t think there’s room for this version of Lonzo. He just hasn’t been good enough. Like, this is what it’s going to have to be until he hits shots consistently, until he stops turning the ball over, until he has a consistent impact on the defensive end of the floor, getting in the passing lanes, being disruptive, blocking a shot the way that he did in transition. These spurts of Alonzo excite you right Right. And Kenny Atkinson was talking about how, you know, he started flashing forward to the playoffs and seeing Lonzo guarding whoever it may be on the other side like it was Jamal Murray tonight. He sees Lonzo getting in the passing lanes. He sees Lonzo with these hit ahead passes to increase the pace of the offense. And I totally understand where, where Kenny’s coming from. You know, that was the vision that this front office had when they acquired Lonzo for Isaac Okoro this off season. They were thinking about that too. But he just hasn’t been good enough throughout the course of this season to justify giving him minutes or a consistent role when this team is close to full strength because he’s been outplayed by some of these other guys on the roster. I give him a lot of credit. It’s hard to go from back to back DNPs and then all of a sudden a couple guys are missing and then your number is called and then you’ve got to make such an impact in a short amount of time. He probably was going to have a very short leash. But for him to make that kind of impact, for him to respond to what is basically a soft benching, there’s no other way to put it, for him to be professional and, and stay engaged and, and continue to talk through different things behind the scenes with Craig Porter Jr. And some of these other guys and be that quote unquote veteran in the locker room and then do whatever it’s going to take for this basketball team to, to be at its best or win games, and sometimes that’s going to be with him, sometimes that’s going to be without him and have that level of understanding and that level of maturity, he deserves a lot of credit for that. But he also has to understand that, that this is, this is his role and that If Craig Border Jr. Is going to be more consistently impactful, and he has been since Kenny Atkinson decided to make the switch. Craig has been great. He was again tonight. His fingerprints were all over that 70 run at the beginning of the fourth quarter. He helped them win the game in San Antonio in the fourth quarter. So, like there has to be and there is from Lonzo and I give him credit for this. There has to be an understanding and there is, that he’s just going to have to wait his turn and that his number is not going to be called every single night. But when it is, can you find a way to, to put your imprint on the game? And he definitely did that tonight. The other thing I think tonight showed, Ethan, is that he had fresh legs. His shot didn’t look as flat. He looked to be moving a little bit better. So if there’s somebody who’s going to benefit from multiple days off in a row, it’s probably Lonzo. And maybe that’s something that the Cavs are going to think about as they continue to manage the remainder of this regular season schedule, that there are benefits to not having him be in the nightly rotation beyond the on court inconsistencies that he showed.
Ethan Sands: Yeah, and I think that’s a good point. You can see the flashes of things that Lonzo Ball brings on the floor, but obviously it hasn’t negated the negatives that we’ve seen thus far into the season as well. There’s a balancing act that Kenny Adkins has to do and that’s kind of part of the difficulty of this job and of his job is continuing to figure out when to go to players, how to manage them. And, and I think that’s something that’s difficult, but it’s also something that the Cavs players have shown the capability of flexibility and adaptability. Right. Jared Allen, again, has not always closed fourth quarter minutes. As someone who’s in the core four, that’s gotta be hard mentally, right? Or it would be for some people. DeAndre Hunter was a starter at the beginning of the season, was supposed to be stepping into the starter role. He’s now back in a six man role. Lonzo Ball, a veteran, ninth year in the NBA, you have a bigger role. You’re a six man coming off the bench with Dean Wade to start the season and now you’re potentially the 10th or 11th man and we really haven’t seen or heard any complaining or egotistic basketball from the locker room at all. I asked this to DeAndre Hunter after tonight’s game. He just mentioned that this is a special group because it not necessarily like this everywhere you go. And I think that’s the accountability, I think that’s the respect and that’s a professionalism that is built with the camaraderie and the chemistry that this group has and this organization has fostered. And I think that’s something that goes unnoticed when it comes to the challenges that the Cavs have faced early on into the season, obviously with injuries and all these different things and just poor performances itself. It doesn’t necessarily have to be because of the injuries, but how this team has responded to adversity, I think is what Donovan Mitchell has talked about since last March. Right when he was talking about needing to respond to Adversity a certain kind of way rather have this happening now than then, right. And then being the playoffs. And I think this is actually what Donovan Mitchell meant. Obviously you didn’t want that to happen in March or April before the playoff, but now this is happening at the beginning of the season and you get to find out who everybody in the locker room is. You get to see how they’re going to respond to different levels of adversity, how they’re going to buy into the team goal. Rather than being, oh, I want to be 6 Man of the year. Oh, I want to be defensive player of the year. And I’m not saying anybody last year had that mindset. They just weren’t 10 tested to this capacity last year because they were running through the Eastern Conference 64 win team. Now we’re talking about 20 wins in the new year and maybe they can still turn the season around. And I think this is a completely different outlook, but it could be beneficial when we talk about coming down the line, heading to the playoffs. But as Donovan Mitchell would and has said, it still continues to be about stacking wins now and getting to the point where you have that flexibility. It can show the growth that you had throughout the regular season.
Chris Fedor: Definitely. I don’t know that tonight was an example of any of that though. If we’re being perfectly honest with you. It just shouldn’t have taken what it took in order to beat this version of the Denver Nuggets in saying that like, Kenny’s gotta be careful too in terms of not getting caught up in recency bias. Saying like, hey, Lonzo stepped forward, he made a couple of shots, he made an impact on the game, okay, I’m going to put him back in the rotation. There’s just not room for him. Like if, if we’re being honest about it and we’re being. And that’s part of what a coach is responsible for. An honest evaluation of what has transpired here and why things have transpired here and this three game winning streak. Part of it is the lineup decisions that Kenny has decided to make. The difficult ones, the delicate ones. He has played guys who have been more impactful. It seems like a no duh thing, right? But their numbers on off with Naquan Tomlin are significant in the positive. Their numbers on off with Craig Porter Jr. Are in the positive. Their numbers on off with Lonzo Ball are negative. That’s the way it’s been throughout the course of this year. So it’s, it’s not trying to pick on Lonzo or anything along those lines. These are hard decisions that all coaches have to make. But if you’re going to play 10, you’ve got to find the right 10, right? You’ve got to reward the guys who are making a difference. And I don’t think it’s a coincidence that this three game winning streak has tied into Kenny making those decisions. Bringing DeAndre off the bench, right? Putting Craig Porter Jr. In the rotation, taking Lonzo out of the rotation for the most part, going to Dean Wade in the starting lineup. Now, that was done a lot earlier. That was done, you know, eight, nine games ago or whatever. But that also coincided with the Cavs playing a little bit better, finding more of a defensive intensity, finding more of a defensive identity, all those different things. So if. If Dean plays on Sunday and everything that my source tells me is that the belief is that he should be able to play on Sunday, and if Sam plays on Sunday, then you have to continue to stay true to what you believed a couple of games ago and say, you know what, Lonzo, thank you for the impact that you made against Denver. It was a great impact. We probably don’t win the game without you making that kind of impact coming off the bench. That was your contribution. But just because you add that contribution doesn’t mean you’re getting this opportunity moving forward. You’re going to have to wait your turn. And it’s a hard situation for Kenny to be in, but if he’s going to play 10 and he’s going to be committed to 10, there are 10 guys that deserve it more at this point in time, just based on what has happened throughout the course of this season.
Ethan Sands: And Chris, we’ve talked about Craig Porter Jr. And bits and pieces here and there over the last couple of podcasts, but I think one of the things that the Cavs have wanted and needed is dribble drives, penetration to the paint and creating facilitation through there, right? Drive, kick, swing. The ideal offense for the Cleveland Cavaliers and something that Kenny Atkinson has raved about. And yet it took this long for Kenny to be like, hey, you know who does that? Craig Forden Jr. Right. And obviously it’s not the same way, but. But we knew this when the Cavs signed Craig Porter Jr. To a standard contract. He knew his game then. He knew who he was, he knew his spots, he knew his dribble packages, he knew how to attack defenses. And I think especially with Darius on the bench at points, having Craig Porter Jr. As a second guard, even though he plays bigger than 6 foot 16 foot 2 on the defensive end. That allows the Cavs to alleviate some of the stressors on their main guards. Especially when we talk about defensive end. But then you talk about the offensive end where he’s handling the ball. And Donovan has talked about it a couple of different times over the last couple of days. It feels easier with him out there because the responsibilities are kind of the same as Darius. Get to the basket, facilitate. Just take gravity with you.
Ethan Sands: And I think Donovan and Darius have recognized that, and Kenny Atkinson is starting to recognize it as well because it’s not just the defense that Kenny has been so tied and pressured on. Craig Porter Jr. Because we saw it early on to the season, if Craig made a defensive mistake, he was coming out of the gate. Now you’re seeing his impact offensively as well. And that makes the decision a little bit more difficult for Kennedy to readily go away from Craig. And I think that’s something that we have to keep an eye on going forward, especially as the team gets healthier. Because, Chris, we understand this. When the Cavs, if the Cavs are ever fully healthy, Craig is also going to be one of those players that’s going to find himself harder to get minutes because Sam Merrill, Dean Wade, Max Struve, these guys are still coming back and going to have to get minutes as well.
Chris Fedor: You know, we’ve talked a few different times, Ethan, about. It just seems like Donovan enjoys playing with Sam Merrill. He said that multiple times because of everything that that Sam does to make things easier on Donovan. I get the sense that Donovan enjoys playing with Craig for all these different reasons that you mentioned. Craig can pick up full court. Craig can guard the best opposing guard on the other side so that Donovan doesn’t have to do that. Craig can take some of the ball handling responsibilities, some of the shot creation. Craig can battle for second chance opportunities to get the defense out of position and get the Cavs another shot at it. Whether it’s another look for Donovan or whatever the case may be, it just seems like what Kenny has kind of fallen into here is Donovan and Craig sort of anchoring that second unit beginning of the second quarter, beginning of the fourth quarter. And their run against San Antonio started early in the fourth quarter with Craig and Donovan together with. And there were other guys out there as well, but those two guys together and then their run tonight against Denver started again in the fourth quarter with Donovan and Craig out there. So it just, you know, part of this whole thing from, from Kenny’s perspective, Ethan, is you’ll find the right lineups and find the right combinations. The combination of Craig and Donovan, it’s got a net rating of 15.5. I think it’s fair to say that the Cavs have found something there at both ends of the floor and, and, and it just works, you know what I mean? And sometimes you just, sometimes you plan for certain lineups to be really, really good and they’re not. And sometimes you stumble on something and you’re like, oh my God, like the three man grouping of, of Jared Allen, Evan Mobley and Dean Wade as another example, that is elite, elite defensively for the Caps and it has been for a long time, the duo of Donovan Mitchell and Craig Porter Jr. That’s the one that’s capable of erasing leads or that’s the one that’s capable of extending leads. And it’s been that way for the last week, week and a half. And I think Kenny being a numbers guy and Kenny having enough data that he thinks is meaningful to this point because it’s no longer a small sample size, I think he’s going to keep leaning into this duo and I think he’s going to have to keep leaning into this duo because it’s one of the most effective tandems that the Cavs have.
Ethan Sands: We saw tonight that Craig Porter Jr. Was checking in with DeAndre Hunter as the first two off the bench. So I think there is a realization that it’s happening. And to your point, Chris, sometimes it’s an uncomfortable realization because we’ve heard from Kenny Atkinson multiple times this season, like maybe I should have done this, maybe that that player is duly upset about or could be upset about this or that. And I think Kenny has recognized this, but sometimes he hasn’t done so in time. And now we’re seeing it come to fruition where a decision is being made, where you’re seeing the success bear fruit. And I think that’s important, especially for this team and especially during this stretch where they’re winning games, even ugly wins, and heading into a contest against the Detroit Pistons on Sunday, which is going to be physical, which is going to be muddy, which is going to be very interesting to watch, especially after tonight’s game and how the Cavs have handled games against physical teams during this season and in past years as well. You can look back to the Houston Rockets game if you really want to, but there’s tiers to this, there’s levels to this, and we know that the Cavs want to make a statement on Sunday against J.B. bickerstaff and the Detroit Pistons where they can walk away with a W at their home court and see where they stand in the Eastern Conference better than maybe what their record says. But with all that being said, that’ll wrap up today’s episode of the why and Goal Talk podcast. But remember to become a Cavs insider and interact with Chris, me and Jimmy by subscribing to Subtext. Sign up for a 14 day free trial or visit cleveland.com cabs and click on the blue bar at the top of the page. If you don’t like it, that’s fine. All you have to do is text the word stop. It’s easy, but we can tell you that the people who sign up stick around because this is the best way to get in insider coverage on the Cav from me, Chris and Jimmy. This isn’t just our podcast, it’s your podcast and the only way to have your voice heard is through Subtext. Y’ all be safe. We out.