CLEVELAND, Ohio — In this episode of the Wine and Gold Talk Podcast, Ethan Sands and Chris Fedor dive into the reality that the Cavs can no longer ignore when facing the Detroit Pistons.
Takeaways:
The Cavs Face an Organizational Identity Crisis
The Cavaliers are facing an “organizational identity crisis,” aspiring to be a tough, defense-first team akin to the Detroit Pistons but lacking the personnel to execute that style effectively. While the Cavs’ players and coaching staff preach a strategy built on grit, creating deflections, and physicality, they don’t possess the “bullies” or “burly, physical dudes” on the roster to consistently impose their will. This disconnect was evident in their loss to Detroit, a team that embodies the very identity the Cavs claim to want. The hosts argue that Cleveland is talking like a team that wants to play Detroit’s style but is fundamentally not built to do so, leading to inconsistent play and the lack of a reliable team foundation to lean on.
Second-Quarter Woes are a Critical Weakness
The Cavaliers’ second-quarter performance has become a critical, season-long weakness, as they rank as the worst team in the NBA during that period, being outscored by nearly 15 points per 100 possessions. This glaring issue was perfectly encapsulated in their recent game against the Pistons, where a strong first quarter was completely erased when they were outscored 47-28 in the second. This quarter has consistently been the turning point in games and represents a significant problem for the team’s stability. The inability to maintain momentum or respond to opponents’ adjustments after the first quarter is a major factor contributing to their uneven play and current struggles in the Eastern Conference standings.
Failing to Meet Their Own “Defense-First” Standard
While the Cavaliers are not a disastrous defensive team, they are failing to meet the high standard set by their own “defense-first” identity. The hosts contend that if a team declares defense as its backbone, being a middle-of-the-pack unit (ranked 12th) is insufficient for championship aspirations. Giving up 47 points in a single quarter to the Pistons, even with key players injured, highlights this inconsistency. Teams with a true defensive identity, like Oklahoma City or Detroit, consistently display a level of toughness that makes offense a “chore” for their opponents. For the Cavs, this defensive grit appears only in flashes, and until it becomes their consistent calling card, their performance will not align with their stated goals.
Bench Production Remains a Major Liability
The Cavaliers’ bench has become a significant liability, ranking as the second-least productive in the entire NBA. This issue was starkly illustrated against the Pistons, where the Cavs’ reserves were outscored 51-28, with Pistons two-way player Dennis Jenkins (25 points) nearly matching the entire Cleveland unit’s output by himself. While injuries have forced bench players into starting roles, the key offseason additions intended to fortify the second unit have been largely ineffective. Larry Nance Jr. struggled before his injury, and Lonzo Ball has been deemed “unplayable against high-level teams.” This lack of reliable depth has forced Kenny Atkinson to reexamine his entire rotation to compensate for the significant drop-off in production.
The Window for Experimentation is Closing
With the team currently eighth in the Eastern Conference standings, the window for experimentation is rapidly closing for the Cavaliers. Kenny Atkinson is still actively searching for effective lineup combinations and rotations — a process made necessary by injuries but one that has contributed to the team’s inconsistent results. However, with a difficult upcoming schedule that includes matchups against Minnesota, Philadelphia, and Oklahoma City, the team has little room for error. The hosts stress that the Cavaliers are approaching a critical stretch where the focus must shift from tinkering and development to actively chasing wins to improve their playoff positioning before they fall too far behind the conference’s top contenders.
Listen using the player below:
You can also listen using your preferred podcast app. Subscription information is below.
Subscribe and listen onApple Podcasts or Spotify.
The video version of the podcast is on YouTube as well.
Transcript
NOTE: This transcript was generated by artificial intelligence and could contain misspellings and errors.
Ethan Sands: What up Cavs Nation? I’m your host, Ethan says, and I’m back with another episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. Joining me Today, Chris Fedor, cleveland.com cav reporter and we’re coming to you guys after The Cavs latest loss, 114-110 to the Detroit Pistons. And Chris, we knew coming into tonight’s game that it was going to be a physical contest that was going to be determined on who punched first and then also who responded to that first punch. And Chris, the first quarter was an indication of just that. 28 points for the Cavs, 19 for the Detroit Pistons and then the second quarter, 47 for the Detroit Pistons and 28 for for the Cleveland Cavaliers. And that was basically the story of the game and has been for this season. Obviously we look back to last year’s and the Cavs have struggled in third quarters. Now this year in second quarters. What did you take away from tonight’s game and how the Cavs are looking?
Chris Fedor: Well, first off, Ethan, the second quarters are horrible and apologies to everybody listening if my voice starts to crack. I’m fighting this cold for the last couple of days. Maybe I was too close to Jared Allen, who knows? The second quarters are horrible for the Cavs. They’re the worst team in the NBA. In the second quarter, they’re being outscored by nearly 15 points per 100 possessions. The only teams in the same stratosphere as them are Indy, like New Orleans, Sacramento, Washington, and I think Milwaukee is the other one. So five other terrible teams. That’s not the company that you want to be in. But as the game was going on against Detroit and as I was listening to a lot of the different players talk in the locker room following today’s game, I just had a big picture thought and I don’t know what it means necessarily, but the Cavs continue to say, hey, we’re a defense first team. We want to rely on our defense, create deflections, create turnovers and get in transition as the game was going on today against Detroit, Detroit, by the way, the number one team in the Eastern Conference. Detroit, by the way, a team that is very, very good in the clutch throughout the course of this year. Detroit, by the way, a team that is a defense first team. You see them play like that, you feel that Kenny Atkinson talked about them being handsy, them being physical, them standing up drivers, them being able to switch, the rebounding, all that kind of stuff. So as the game is playing out, all I thought to myself, Ethan was the Cavs want to be who the Pistons are now. They want to be a better version of that. They want to be more explosive and dynamic offensively. They want to be able to make more three pointers. But if you listen to the players, they’re talking like a team that wants to play like Detroit, but they’re not. They’re not Detroit. They don’t have that level of personnel. And as you’re watching the game, and I know that the Cavs were missing Jarrett, they were missing Dean. Two big losses. They were missing Max. Max is feisty. Max is competitive. But as you’re watching the game and you’re just looking at the personnel difference between the two teams, the Cavs can’t be Detroit. They can’t, because they don’t have bullies, because they don’t have these burly, physical dudes on the inside, because their interior players have a different makeup. So we’ve talked about this a number of different times, Ethan, on this podcast. I just think there’s an organizational identity crisis. I do. I think the Cavs want to be a certain kind of team, and I don’t think they have the personnel to do that. Detroit can be Detroit. Detroit can be bullies. Detroit can be physical. Detroit can be handsy. Detroit can make it rough. All the things that J.B. bickerstaff instilled here in Cleveland, all the things that J.B. bICKERSTAFF wanted the Cavs to be one of the years they made all these T shirts that said win the scrap. It was about the little things. It was about the dirty things. It was about the physicality, the toughness, the ruggedness. We’re not going to get pushed around. We’re going to be one of the best defensive teams in the NBA. For all of our other shortcomings, we’re going to be that we’re going to have an identity that we can lean into. We’re going to have an identity that makes sense, that we can rely on, that we play to. Even if it doesn’t always lead to wins, we’re going to be that. And you see that with Detroit, right Flip. On a Pistons game, you know exactly what you’re going to get. And it’s not always going to lead to wins, not always going to be pretty. Probably not going to make a bunch of threes, although they did in the second quarter against the Cavs. And I just, like, kept watching the game, saying to myself, if you listen to the Cavs, they’re talking about trying to be Detroit, trying to be that style team. And it’s fascinating to me given the ties between the organizations, the deep ties between the organizations. But that’s all I kept thinking as I was watching the game and then listening to Donovan Mitchell and listening to Sam Merrill and, and listening to Kenny Atkinson after the game. The Cavs say defense first, defense first, create turnovers, get out in transition. That’s who Detroit is. That’s what they do. That’s how they’ve gotten to this point where they’re the number one team in the Eastern Conference. And I’m just going to be fascinated to see as this season progresses, as more guys get healthy, as guys slide back into the roles that they probably should be in, which is also contributing to the whole second quarter woe thing. I’m going to be fascinated to see if the Cavs can actually get to that point where that does become their identity on a consistent basis, because I have my doubts on it.
Ethan Sands: We’ve kind of danced around this conversation and I think it’s about time we really put our foot on it as we want the Cavs to do when they have leads to put their foot on teams next and keep it there until something changes. If and I’ve been asking multiple opposing coaches throughout the season about identity, about personnel affecting identity. As we know, health is a big thing in the NBA. Health is what has been the derivative of how the Cavs have played to start season. They’ve talked about Dean Wade and Jared Allen being out tonight. Donovan Mitchell pointed to it at the end of the game. It was huge that they didn’t have them right. Max Strutz hasn’t been here. The gravity, the explosiveness, the toughness, that’s all true. But an identity, this is something that you’re supposed to be able to go to even when you don’t have necessarily the players you want on the floor. It’s an identity of the team. And the Cavs have reiterated the concept that they want to have a team mindset, a team thought process, a one track goal. And I think this Cavs team has not gotten to that point where they’re able to do that depending on the personnel that’s on the floor. And, and that’s why we’ve continuously had this conversation about identity. That’s point one, the second point. And I think this might ruffle feathers a little bit more. But the Cavs were not ready to be who they want to be. Now when J.B. rstaff was on this team, when J.D. rickerstaff was coaching this team, he was too tough on them at points and J.D. bakerstaff talked about it today in his pregame press conference about his process about learning and taking away from his last season in Cleveland and implementing some things, process oriented into the Detroit Pistons. But he wanted to make clear and he and when Chris asked about him being a fiery, competitive guy, he still made clear that when they’re between the lines, it’s competitive. This is who we are, this is who we’re going to be. But process is more about how I manage stars. How do we practice? Do we have to go right after a game even though it’s a loss? Do we take a day off? Do we have a recovery day? Do we play soccer instead of having an all out practice? Those are things that J.D. bickerstaff has implemented with the Detroit Pistons. Now he was not readily able to when he was in Cleveland and in part that was because he is someone known for building culture. The Detroit Pistons know their culture. The Cavs at that point were J. Bickerstaff, he was trying to get them to that level. He was trying to get them to the intensity level, the effort level, the necessity on the defensive end when it comes to the fundamentals for them to play to the standard that they are now. Right. They have the idea of who they want to be defensively, offensively, mentally. And not to take anything away from Kenny Atkinson because he has helped get them to this point. It’s a different coaching style is a different life lesson that everybody is taking with them. And maybe they didn’t necessarily like what J.D. bickerstaff was doing when he was here, but the reality is the Cavs as a whole needed to mature more to be able to have these kinds of conversations. And that was because this team a couple of years ago was young. Now they’re older. Now they understand the window. Now they understand the contract implications that they have surrounding them. And even Jaylon Tyson in his practice media availability said we are in a tight window. We are in a small window where we want to win a championship. So even a second year player can see it. Someone who didn’t play under J.B. bakerstaff. Right. So I think this is something that the Cavs are going to have to come to terms with and that the organization and the fan base who is like, well, Jamie Biggerstaff wasn’t able to do X’s and O’s in the playoffs. Yeah, that’s true. But if we’re talking about building a team that would have ferociously gone after loose balls, rebounds or they would have known the penalties of it that was that team. This team feels like they’re getting more leeway for things that they should.
Chris Fedor: And here’s the thing, Ethan. You know, I don’t think the Cavs are a bad defensive team, per se. Like, they aren’t the Atlanta Hawks with Trae Young on the roster where they just give up 130 on a nightly basis. Basically. They’re not the Washington Wizards, right? They’re not the New Orleans Pelicans. But if you say it’s going to be your thing, if you say it’s going to be your backbone, if you say it’s going to be your identity, then we, the collective, we, are going to hold you to a much higher standard at that end of the floor. And giving up 47 points to the Detroit Pistons in the second quarter is just not good enough. Yes, I know Dean was missing and Jarrett was missing and Max was missing. That was part of it. That helps explain some of it. And there were some quarters where the Cavs were better defensively than others. And they’ve had flashes of being that elite level defense. They did it in the fourth quarter against whatever was left of the Nuggets. Right? They did in the first quarter tonight against the Pistons. Even though the Pistons didn’t have Jalen Duran, Tobias Harris, Garris Lavert, they held the Pistons to 21 points in the third quarter. So, yeah, there are times where you look at the Cavs, you’re like, all right, grimy, tough, physical, forcing turnovers, forcing teams into difficult shots, making it hard for them to get into the paint, but it’s just not consistent enough. Oklahoma City does it consistently, right? The Detroit Pistons do it consistently. The Miami Heat, the Houston Rockets, they all do it consistently. The Cavs are like just outside the top 10, very close to middle of the pack defense. And that’s fine if. If that’s not going to be your thing, but they say it’s their thing. They say they want it to be their thing, and that’s not good enough. If that’s going to be your thing and if that’s who you want to be, if you say that defense is your identity and you’re 12th in defense, what does that get you? Are you competing for titles like that? Are you competing for Eastern Conference crowns like that? It’s just hard for me to see that. So, yeah, I mean, I think it’s fair to hold them to a higher standard defensively and say, look, if you’re going to preach defense first, if you are going to call that your identity, if you are going to be adamant about that being your identity, then 12th isn’t good enough. Not if you want to win a championship. It’s just not. And yeah, there are circumstances tied to it for sure, but the Pistons say they’re a defense first team and they play to them. And you saw that today. You saw how tough and physical they were. You saw how grabby they were. You saw how they made it tough for the Cavs on the offensive end of the floor. It looked like for the Cavs for a majority of that game, offense was a chore for them. If you’re a defense first team, offense should be a chore for the other team. Look at right now what’s going on. Oklahoma City’s playing against Phoenix. Phoenix has 42 points at the half. We don’t know what’s going to happen in the second half, but in the first half they have 42 points. That’s what a defense team looks like. That’s how that team, if you say that’s your identity, is supposed to play. So either the Cavs have to say, you know what our identity is going to be offense, we’re going to try and be so prolific, we’re going to try and be so dynamic that that’s who we’re going to be. And maybe we’re going to use lineups that match that a little bit better. Or they just have to find it more consistently and attention to detail, focus, communication, following the scouting report, like all those things have to get to a higher level for them defensively. One of those two things has to happen. And until one of those two things happens, then I think you’re going to see just the uneven play that we’ve seen throughout the course of this season so far.
Ethan Sands: And this is part of what Kenny Atkinson has talked about. Like there is a blueprint to beating the Cavs. Transition defense, right? That has been an issue, right? Offensive rebounding, that has been an even bigger issue. And then you talk about the physicality of teams knowing that they can come in and try and push the Cavs around. DeAndre Hunter has talked about it at nauseum, trying to tell teams that they can’t push you around. He got a technical today for pushing Ron Holland, for trying to push him around. Right? That’s a statement. But he can’t be the only one doing it. It’s not just the Detroit Pistons, even though they’re the first in the Eastern Conference and potentially the Cavs would have to face them at some point in the playoffs. But then you also talk about like other teams in the regular season, the Houston Rockets, the New Orleans Pelicans are still a team that likes to get downhill, likes to be physical, likes to be handsy. If you’re struggling against that level of team, you’re going to have difficulty against the Boston Celtics, you’re going to have difficulty as the Philadelphia 76, you’re going to have difficulty against the Milwaukee Bucks, but when you have to go up against Giannis. But I think this is an indication of how the Cavs played in tonight’s contest when it came to the transition offense that they know helps them get into the flow of their game so much better than playing in the half court. The Cavs were unable to get out into the fast break as much as the Detroit Pistons, which should be alarming. That’s the other thing. Javante Green made eight threes in his 18 contests with the Cleveland Cavaliers last year. You left him open so much that he made three. That’s nearly half. And that’s a part of the rotations and the defense and all these things. But Chris, I want to focus on the transition offense right now and how their offense continues to hurt their defense. And we’ve talked about that so much this season. It’s been appalling.
Chris Fedor: I don’t know. Like I, I get them wanting to push the pace, but Donovan said something along the lines after the game about no teams want to get in that kind of game with us. I don’t know that that’s entirely true. I, I don’t know. Yes, the Cavs in transition can be effective and the numbers say that. And the Cavs do need to get out in transition to try and hunt easier shots before the opposing defense can get set because sometimes their half court offense can turn into a slog and it can be very, very difficult for them and it allows some of their athletes to get out on the break, maybe get some quick threes, things like that. I totally understand that line of thinking and it’s, it’s smart for them to think like that, but I just, I didn’t buy the whole thing from Donovan about teams don’t want us to do that because we do that better than anybody else. You know what I mean? Like, that’s what he was alluding to. He didn’t point blank say that, but that’s what he was alluding to. I don’t know that I see the Cavs as that kind of team. Do you?
Ethan Sands: No. Especially when you have contests like the Atlanta Hawks, who ran them out of the building, like the Tiana, they can.
Chris Fedor: Run better than the Cavs.
Ethan Sands: It’s understandable that the Cavs are better when they’re running in transition. So Donovan would want to say that because like their offense becomes prolific in that kind of transition offense, when they’re moving the ball that kind of way, then they enter this kind of flow state. But if you look across, you see the Toronto Raptors, the Atlanta Hawks, the Chicago Bulls have all ran them out of the building. I think it’s difficult to to say that the running aspect is what is allowing them to get there. It’s more so the spacing and the spread out offense that is allowing them to have more opportunities in space. And I think that’s partially what Kenny Yakinson has been talking about when it comes to like lineups and combinations and making sure our players are in the right spots for them to be successful.
Chris Fedor: I think the other thing that we have to talk about here tonight, Ethan, is that the bench is just becoming a problem. Now there is nuance here to this conversation and we do have to provide the context. Okay, but the bench scored 28 points tonight for the Cavs. The Pistons bench scored 51. That is a slaughter in NBA terms, NBA standards. That is a slaughter. And it’s been like that more times than not throughout the course of the year. Yes, there have been moments where guys off the bench have stepped up. You know, the minutes from Craig Porter Jr. I do believe were productive tonight for the Cavs, and I believe that they have been productive since the Cavs made the rotational change to pull out Lonzo Ball unless circumstances dictate that he plays and go with Craig a little bit more. Craig helped them win the San Antonio game. Craig helped the fourth quarter comeback against Denver the other night. I thought Craig was effective in his minutes, especially tonight against Detroit. But like, it’s a problem. It’s the second least productive bench in the entire NBA. And the context involved here is obviously that the CAVs have used 19 different starting lineups after tonight’s game. So, you know, guys are bouncing between starter and bench. Some of the guys that they thought they were going to have in the second unit have been forced into starter roles. Some of the guys that they’ve had to use coming off the bench were supposed to be used every now and then as opposed to mainstays. So that’s part of it. DeAndre Hunter, who was either going to start or come off the bench, depending on what was going to happen with Max Drus, like before Max got his, his foot surgery. One of those two guys, either DeAndre or Max, was supposed to be a full time reserve. Sam Merill was supposed to be a full time reserve. So yes, there’s a lot of context. Dean Wade was supposed to be a full time reserve. He wasn’t supposed to be a starter. That wasn’t the plan coming into this season. But if we’re being honest about it, the. The moves that the Cavs made this past offseason and I think it’s an incomplete grade because of all the circumstances that I just talked about, but the moves that the Cavs made this past off season to fortify the bench and to to make them a little bit more versatile and maybe a little bit more dynamic, which one of those has worked like the best of that group? The most consistent of that group has been Thomas Bryant. Right. And he just doesn’t play consistently enough to put that as a feather in your cap. Larry Ants Jr. Was ineffective before getting hurt. Let’s see what it looks like when he comes back from this calf injury. Signs are positive for Larry in terms of his return. I do believe that he is going to go on this trip, or at least the plan is for him to go on this road trip. They play Indy and they play Minnesota. That doesn’t necessarily mean that he’s going to play, but I believe that that’s the one plan. He does still have to do other things behind the scenes, but he was speaking in positive terms to the training staff earlier today. So he’s probably getting closer and let’s see what it looks like for him. He’s probably in better shape than he was coming into the year because he’s had more of an opportunity on the sidelines to kind of focus on some of those things. But before he had this injury, he was ineffective for the most part. Lonzo is at the point of unplayable against high level teams. Right. He was good the other night. Give him credit for for what he brought to the team coming off the bench against Denver. But that was against G leaguers and end of bench guys for the most part. Today against Detroit he looked unplayable. His minutes were not good. What was he? A minus 17. Minus 18. Sorry. And he’s somebody that the Cavs were going to rely on. He’s somebody that the Cavs needed to rely on. He was part of that second unit makeover. People are always like, why are you so hard on Lonzo? Because they need him, Lonzo. For this team coming into the year, Lonzo was not supposed to be a luxury. He was supposed to be a consistent, reliable option coming off the bench. Ages hasn’t been that in Tyrese Proctor. It’s just too early. It’s too early. He was a second round pick. He was the 49th pick. He’s obviously not in the top 10 of this team. So he shouldn’t be a full time rotation guy anyway. You know, he should be. He should be developing for the most part behind the scenes. But those were like the four big moves. And then the other big move was resigning Sam Merrill, the new additions to this team that they brought in to help fortify this bench. It just hasn’t happened. And then when you combine that with bench players that have been thrust into starting roles, you probably have more of an explanation for what’s happening here, but it’s just not good enough on a nightly basis. And even Kenny Atkinson said following the game, Ethan, he said we have to reexamine this. Do we put two stars out there at all times? I mean, that’s hard. It’s hard to do, but maybe you have to explore that. So I think it’s good that Kenny sees the problem and it’s clear that he’s searching for solutions. We talked about this on the previous podcast. He is searching for solutions, he’s searching for lineups, he’s searching for combinations. But it’s, it’s just not good enough and it’s not reliable enough from the second unit right now. They. They need more from these guys than. Than what they’re getting to be the team that they want to be.
Ethan Sands: And Chris, to your point about the bench production or lack thereof for today’s game, Dennis Jenkins finished with 25 points. As you mentioned earlier, the Cavs bench entirely had 28. So they were outscored by a two way player that is roughly six foot one, six foot two and had almost 25 points. Was seven of seven and six of six in one quarter. And that’s basically all he scored. So you can tell me that he outscored the Cavs bench basically for the entire game in one court. And I think that is telling, but it also, as you mentioned, Chris, there is different context that needs to be said. I do still think that the Cavs bench, when fully healthy should be one of the most dangerous in the NBA. But the most difficult job of a coach, as talked to, as I mentioned with other opposing coaches, Kenny Atkinson is not only re acclimating these players after injury, getting them into a rhythm, allowing them to find flow and get acclimated with literally just the plays that they’re Running, but also finding places to take players who are in rhythm or who have been playing all season out or giving them less minutes or finding them in combinations and in lineups. We’re talking about Kenny Atkinson struggling to find combinations in lineups that have been successful without three or four players, at least in almost every game, being unavailable. Now we’re telling me if this team is fully healthy, they’re going to have more options, which is going to make those combinations and lineups harder to find and smaller sample sizes to go off of. And we know, as Chris mentions on almost every podcast, Kenny is a stats based guy. So you’re telling me these smaller sample sizes are going to do less justice to what Kenny needs to see? And especially if we’re talking about Max Drew potentially returning in the next few weeks. Yeah, this is going to say you have like 40 games left in the season. How are you going to respond? How has the rest of the team going to respond? And it’s not necessarily built on chemistry and karate. We know they have that, but it’s legitimately about how they play alongside each other and that could be difficult because you don’t know which lever to pull. And to this point in the season, not to be harsh, but Keddie Akinson hasn’t proven moving that he can push the right button in these kinds of situations.
Chris Fedor: Yeah, I think it remains to be seen. I think there are positive signs. Obviously he pushed the lonzo button, started that last week. That’s a positive sign. That’s, that’s a recognition. The data supports that. That’s a recognition of, of Craig just being more consistently impactful. He pushed the Naquan button. He’s giving him more of an opportunity and extended opportunity. You could sit there and you could say, well, that wasn’t the plan coming in. No, he’s on the two way contract for a reason. But for the most part I didn’t think he was very good today. I thought he was kind of out of control. But for the most part the numbers say that, that he has been effective and the Cavs have been a good team with him on the floor. So I do think, yes, Kenny is searching. I do think that he has struggled with lineups and combinations. It took him a while to get to Dean Wade in the starting lineup. It took him a while to push the lonzo button. It took him a while to give more opportunity to Naquan. But as long and it’s hard, right. But as long as he arrives at the and it’s been kind of not a straight line. But as long as he arrives at the right destination for when it matters most, there still is that big picture that. That looms over this team. In saying that, like, in saying all of that, they aren’t in the best place, they aren’t in a good place from a standings perspective. They do have ground to make up here, and as Kenny continues to tinker and experiment, if that leads to more shortcomings and losses, they don’t really have that much wiggle room in the standings. At some point, we are going to get to a stretch of the season where we say, hey, they gotta chase some more wins here because they’ve got to find a way to maybe get home court advantage in round. Like, I don’t know what the exact goal is from that perspective, but eighth in the Eastern Conference isn’t a really cozy place to be if you want to chase a championship. I think top three, maybe that’s the.
Ethan Sands: Goal at this point.
Chris Fedor: Maybe that should be the goal at this point. But there’s. There’s quite a climb for the Cavs to get there, and it’s not a situation like last year where you just feel like the Cavs are so prolific, they’re so dominant, they’re so overwhelming with their talent and their prolific offense that they’re just. And. And they have such a reliable, consistent bench that they’re just going to rack up these wins. You know what I mean? Like, I just don’t see them as that team. Maybe they get there. Maybe the health helps them get there, but there is going to be a stretch where we’re going to sit here and say, like, hey, I know you want to experiment. I know you want to tinker. I know you feel like this is good for Craig Porter Jr. And Naquan Tomlin and Jaylon Tyson and all these other young guys to get this experience and these kinds of opportunities. And it’s kind of a byproduct of everything that has happened in the first couple of months of the season. But there is going to be a stretch where you say, like, that stuff might have to go to the side and you might have to start chasing some wins here to crawl out of this position that you put yourself in.
Ethan Sands: And, Chris, we’ve continuously called it an experimentation period. Period is closing, right? We’re talking about nearing the trade deadline, and that might be the window of where the Cows are figuring out who they are and where they are in standings, because currently they’re eighth in the Eastern Conference. They’re three and a half games out of Third place. They do have the Indiana Pacers, who are probably the worst team in the NBA this season in their next contest on Tuesday. But after that they got the Minnesota Timberwolves twice, the Utah Jazz, who, although pretty bad, have given some decent teams run for their money.
Chris Fedor: They can score. That’s one thing you can say about them.
Ethan Sands: That’s true. And the Philadelphia 76ers, then the Oklahoma City Thunder, and that’s just January 19th. Chris and so I think there’s a stretch of games here where the Cavs are going to be tested and they have to figure something out, whether it’s an identity, whether it’s combination in lineups. This team has talked about finding themselves all season.
Chris Fedor: I mean, you don’t want to measure them against Detroit because that’s not the end all be all and that’s not what we thought coming into this year. But even Sam Merrill said it after the game. Donovan Mitchell didn’t want to go there, but he kind of said it. He didn’t say it point blank. He kind of danced around it a little bit because I don’t think he wanted to put that out there. But it, but it’s clear in watching the game and it’s just one game and you don’t want to overreact to one game. But like, Detroit has more answers about who they are and like lineups and combinations and stuff like that than the Cavs do at this point. And they’re further along. They are better than the Caps, the Boston Celtics, for everything we thought coming into this year, at this point they are better, they are further along than the Cavs, right? At this point the New York Knicks are better and further along than the Cavs, and it’s up to the Cavs to prove that they can make up that ground. And it’s up to the Cavs, even though they’re not on that level right now. It’s up to the Cavs to, to show that eventually we can get there. And, and here are the reasons why I think the stretch that they’ve had here, most recently the win against San Antonio, you know, the comeback against Denver, they have been playing better basketball, but it’s still not to the standard that they have set for themselves. It’s still not to the standard that they should have for themselves if they again want to compete for an Eastern Conference crown. So it’s up to them to continue to prove there are going to be people that ask questions about them, there are going to be people that are doubting them. They have inflamed some of those things, right? So it’s up to them to consistently show that you’re right. We’re not on that level right now. We’re not where we want to be, but we can. We do have the makings of being a better team than what we have shown so far. Today was not an example of that though. Like today is not something that they could point to and say, here are some reasons why they just didn’t look.
Ethan Sands: On Detroit’s level and I guess we’ll find out if they can ever get there. But it starts on Tuesday against the Indiana Pacers. Banking a win that is much needed for this Cavs organization can’t give that zip win, no, and especially because they’ll probably be without Benedict Matheran. Should be a cakewalk. But again, as we’ve seen with this Cavs team, you cannot take anybody for granted. It’s the NBA. Wins are hard to come by. Then we have this stretch of games that I mentioned that the Cavs will be tested and we’ll see how they respond. And that’s what Donovan Mitchell and the Cavs have been trying to take lessons from. How do they continue to respond to adversity? How are they setting themselves up to pull back from these things when it comes down to playoff time? That’s the goal. And they’re building up these stressors, Chris, for when the playoff comes around that they can pull back to do when the time comes. But with all that being said, that’ll wrap up today’s episode of the Want and Gold Talk podcast. But remember to become a CAS insider and interact with Chris, me and Jimmy by subscribing to Subtext. This is where you can send in your weekly hey Chris. Questions get a shout out on the podcast, but the only way to do so is signing up for a free 14 day free trial or visiting cleveland.com Cavs and clicking on the blue bar at the top of the page. If you don’t like it, that’s fine. All you have to do is text the word stop. It’s easy, but we can tell you that the people who signed up stick around because this is the best way to get insider coverage on the Cavs from me, Chris and Jimmy. This isn’t just our podcast, it’s your podcast. And the only way to have your voice heard is through some text. Y’ all be safe. We out.