CLEVELAND, Ohio — As Kevin Stefanski packs his office following his dismissal as Browns head coach, it’s worth examining a stark contrast among Cleveland’s sports franchises that speaks volumes about organizational philosophy and success.
The Cleveland Baseball Talk Podcast recently highlighted this fascinating disparity: While the Browns have burned through six head coaches and the Cavaliers an astonishing eight in the past 13 years, the Guardians have employed just two managers – Terry Francona and now Stephen Vogt.
This remarkable stability isn’t accidental. It’s the product of an organizational philosophy that values patience, development, and long-term vision over knee-jerk reactions.
“Stability is the key, and having a front office that doesn’t panic, that is not under pressure from ownership to turn this thing around in two days,” Paul Hoynes observed on the podcast. “I think all that comes into play here.”
The contrast in ownership styles couldn’t be more evident. While the Browns and Cavaliers feature ultra-wealthy owners who regularly splash cash on free agents and aren’t afraid to clean house, the Guardians operate differently. They’ve built a system predicated on player development, shrewd trades, and consistency from the front office down.
Joe Noga pointed out another key distinction: “The Guardians have never made a guy the highest paid player in the league for a season. The next time they give out a $300 million contract will be the first time.”
This fiscal discipline has forced the organization to create a system where winning doesn’t depend on outspending opponents but outthinking them. By investing in player development and creating a consistent message throughout the organization, the Guardians have built something that might be less flashy but has proven more sustainable.
The farm system plays a crucial role in this stability. While NFL and NBA rookies often jump straight to the highest level, baseball’s development pipeline allows organizations to shape players within their system for years. This produces athletes who already understand the team’s philosophy before reaching Cleveland.
Hoynes emphasized this point: “You’re able to develop players in a way the organization wants them to play baseball. That plays a part in having a stable franchise as well.”
The benefits of this approach are clear. The Guardians have consistently competed for playoff spots while their Cleveland sports counterparts have experienced much more erratic success. Even with financial constraints, the baseball club has found a formula that works.
The podcast makes clear that stability doesn’t just happen – it’s cultivated through organizational philosophy, patience from ownership, and a commitment to a process rather than quick fixes. As Hoynes noted, the connection between the front office and dugout remains consistent even as some personnel inevitably change.
For Cleveland sports fans seeking insight into why their baseball team remains consistently competitive while their football and basketball counterparts ride rollercoasters of hope and despair, this episode of Cleveland Baseball Talk provides fascinating perspective. Tune in to hear the complete discussion about how organizational philosophy shapes success – and why stability might be the most underrated asset in professional sports.
_Read the automated transcript of today’s podcast below. Because it’s an AI-generated transcript, it may contain errors and misspellings._
**Podcast Transcript**
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Joe Noga: To the Cleveland Baseball Talk podcast, I’m Joe Noga, joined by Paul Hoynes. Hoynsie, a lot of news in Cleveland yesterday surrounding the firing of head coach Kevin Stefanski by the Cleveland Browns. You and I started to have. Have a little conversation here before we started recording just about how, you know, if you look at the Browns, if you look at the Cavaliers over the last, you know, 12, 13 years here in Cleveland, the Browns, six different head coaches, the Cavaliers eight different head coaches, but the Guardians franchise, only two managers in, in that time frame, you know, Terry Francona obviously the winningest manager in franchise history. And, and he stepped away. He retired after the, the 2023 season. So they’ve only really had to go on one managerial search in that, that 13 year span since Tito first, you know, walked into the, the clubhouse. You about the, the Guardians and the, the franchise as a whole, you know, is there a difference maybe between baseball and, and football and basketball in, in that regard? You know, why have the other teams in Northeast Ohio had so much turnover from their head coaching position, but the, the Guardian’s been so stable.
Paul Hoynes: I think, you know, that that’s a key. You said the key word, Joe. Stabilities. You know, I think this front office is built, has been built on a premise that making changes isn’t always a good thing. I mean, I can remember way back when Mark Shapiro was running the show and he had, he hired eric wedge in 2003. And I remember a conversation with him, he said, I hope Wedge is the only manager I hire. And I’m sure in the Cavs and the Browns, the decision makers with them have the same thought. But you know, it doesn’t work that way. It doesn’t always work that way. But the Guardians slash Indians have made a concerted effort to do that. And I think it all starts with the front office, with ownership, you know, an ownership that doesn’t really panic, you know, have as. Have we ever heard, you know, Larry, Larry Dolan or Paul Dolan really, you know, raising a public, you know, fuss about a manager or about, you know, coming out and complaining that the team isn’t playing well. Uh, you know, they leave that to the front office. The front office, obviously. Well, since they started winning in 94, you know, they’ve had Mike Hargrove for what, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 years, then Eric Wedge for a long run, then Francona for 11, and Stephen Vogt is off to a good start entering his third year. So I think stability is the key and having a front office that doesn’t panic, that is not kind of, you know, under pressure from ownership to turn this thing around in, in two days. So I think all that comes into play here.
Joe Noga: Yeah, and, and I think, you know, winning is always the, the best, you know, disinfectant as well. You look at the success that the, the Guardians have had consistently being in the playoffs, you know, the majority of the season is between 2013 and now. And you look at the other Franchi, obviously the Cavaliers, it’s going to be based on the players on your roster as well. When The Cavaliers had LeBron James, even when they had LeBron James, they, they still had turnover in that, that head coaching seat, there were multiple names in there. David Blatt, Tyron Liu were, you know, was fired halfway through the season. So in his second year, I think the quality of the players on the roster helps. Obviously, the Browns have had a lot of roster turnover, but Kevin Stefanski won two coach of the year awards in the NFL in, in his six seasons in Cleveland. When he was really good, when the team was really good, he was really highly thought of. And when the team was really bad, we saw what happened with, you know, eight wins over the last two seasons. And that, that’s the way things go as far as this consistency and the stability, just the nature of the game. Obviously with baseball, you know, 162 games season, 162 game schedule, basketball half of that, and football, uh, less than half of that. The opportunities there to, to, to win games a bit fewer. But is it about building a culture? Is it about building a clubhouse presence? Maybe that, that, you know, helps baseball take a, a sort of a, a longer, more relaxed approach or make them able to step back and, and see the bigger picture as opposed to, like you said, the, the, the, the sort of win now pressure.
Paul Hoynes: I think that’s a good point. When you look at the Browns and you look at the Cavs, their, they both are run by really rich guys. They’ve got a lot of money, they’re consistent players in the free agent market and the trade market. Seems like every year the roster is getting turned over. That’s not always. That hasn’t been the case normally. You know, I guess for the majority of the time with the Guardians, I mean, we’ve seen them this year fail to go out and get a, you know, a key hitter when everyone in the world knows that they need offense because they’ve committed to the players that they brought up through the system that they developed, that they brought in through trades and they want to, want to give these guys a chance to develop. And I think that does establish a culture, Joe. I think that, that really, you know, if you’re Stefanski, you’re not spending, you know, half the year trying to build a culture. The culture is already in place because you’re dealing with, you know, basically the same people. Not always the same people because there’s always going to be turnover. But core players, if you think from the last three, four years with the Guardians has pretty much stayed the same, right?
Joe Noga: Yeah. And in baseball you’ve got that sort of that, that structure and set up where they don’t reach free agency for six seasons. You’ve, you know, you’ve got a guy under team control. If he comes up and he’s, he’s a quality rookie, you know, you’re going to have him for a set amount of time. With football and basketball having salary caps and the way that free agents are able to move around and, and make their money there, it’s EAS a team to go from last place in the division to first place. Obviously we haven’t seen it in the Browns case in a long time, but, you know, the Cavs were, were able to, to build a core and keep that team together for a while and they’ve been in the playoffs a few times the last couple years, even without LeBron James. The thing that the Browns were able to do, as much as they might regret it now, they were all able to offer DeSean Watson the biggest contract, the biggest guaranteed money contract in NFL history for a quarterback with the, you know, what, 230 some million dollars guaranteed for when they, when they signed him and brought him over. The Guardians have never done anything like that. They’ve never made a guy the highest paid player in the league for a season. They could, they have the ability to do that. They just. The opportunity to do that. They just, they’ve, they’ve never given out a contract like that. And what’s Larry Dolan said the next time I give out a $300 million contract or Paul Dolan, I’m sorry, next time I get, we give out a $300 million contract will be the first time, I think, you know, that people are so willing to spend other people’s money to make that a reality. But in, in this case, you’ve got the, the Guardians really operating within the system that they have and they’ve done so well doing that consistently over the last, you know, 13 years that you’ve got leadership able, being able to stay in place for for that long.
Paul Hoynes: Yeah. I mean, you know, the leadership in the front office has been stable. The leaders, the connection between the GM or the direct, the president of baseball operations and the managerial office has been stable. You know, obviously, you know, they lose some front office people every year. They lose some coaches every year, but the main connection is the same. And you know, they hire people, when they hire people, a new manager or a new coach or, you know, new front office people, they know what the expected expectations are in Cleveland. You’re not going to have a big payroll. You’re going to have to find new ways to get the most out of your players, to get the most out of your talent and that eventually, if you do it the right way, that equals wins and division championships and trips to the post season. So, you know, and, and Joe, I think having a farm system, you know, you’re able to develop players, you know, a little more, you know, in, in the, in a way you want, in a way the organization wants to play baseball, you know, NFL, the NBA brings their guys in from college or high school or whatever, you know, and they go right to the leagues. I mean, I know the Cavs have a, have a, you know, a developmental league, but still, I think that plays a part in having a, a stable franchise as well.
Joe Noga: Yeah, and being able to draft the way the, the Guardians have has also, you know, been a positive because they’ve hit on a lot more than they’ve missed in terms of the draft over the last decade plus. And you mentioned, you know, that the idea of, you know, anybody who is interviewed for that managerial seat in Cleveland is, does so with the understanding that, you know, they have to operate under a certain payroll and there’s, there’s limits there. But the trade off is, you know, maybe that there’s more patience coming from the front office in terms of if, you know, you don’t have a championship season in, you know, one or two years that, you know, maybe, you know, they’re not so quick to part ways with you. Understanding that it’s not always the manager’s fault that the, the players don’t perform when things don’t go right again. You know, the, the, the, the Browns now moving on and in a coaching search for a new head coach, the Cavaliers, you know, Kenny Atkinson obviously a success there, you know, last year, but you know, the, the Guardians two time manager of the year, Stephen Vogt sitting there getting ready for, for season number three and you know, it gotta look and things are, you know, pretty positive right now. I, is, is vote now the most tenured or he’s the, he’s the second most tenured coach in Cleveland. Atkinson’s got him by a couple of months, right?
Paul Hoynes: I guess so, Joe. Yeah, I’ve been, I gotta get my calculator to figure that out. But yeah, that’s, yeah, that’s, that’s really interesting. I mean and you know, he just signed. Well, he signed a multi year deal before the start of the 2025 season. You know, voters in the catbird seat, so to speak.
Joe Noga: Yeah, it’s you know, great. A great position for him and for the Guardians. All right. News coming out of the, the Guardians offices yesterday. Big Christmas to Baltimore. John Kenzie Noel designated for assignment prior to the holidays. He gets claimed on waivers by the Orioles, reunited with Craig Albernaz there and obviously he’s, he’s a right handed bat. Tremendous power, lots of strikeouts. But maybe a, a new start for him in Baltimore where, where really things started off on a, on a really high note for him back in 2024.
Paul Hoynes: Yeah, definitely not a big surprise that the Orioles were the team that claimed Noel. He, you know, his first, first at bat in the big leagues in 2024. He homered become and I think just the fourth, May 3rd or fourth guardians slash Indians player to ever do that. You know, he had a, you know that, that kind of spurred him to a, you know, kind of a promising 2024, Joe, but he wasn’t able to build on that. Playing time had a lot to do with it this past season but you know, just a disappointing year for big Christmas in 2025 and now he’s, he’s, you know, hopefully he catches on in, in, in Baltimore. They put him on the 40 man and you know, that’s a team looking for right handed power. Of course they’ve, you know, signed Pete Alonso, they signed Tyler Ward to you know, right handed hitters, home run hitters. So he’s going to have his work cut out for him to make that 26 man roster.
Joe Noga: And they move the fences back in, in left field a little bit more, making it a little more attractive for right handed hitters there in Baltimore. Did, did Big Christmas get a fair chance? Did the Guardians give him enough of an opportunity to see what they had in him here? Obviously the strikeout numbers were, were just not manageable in, you know, for what Cleveland needed him to, to be. But you know, did he. Can he walk away from Cleveland saying that he had a fair chance here?
Paul Hoynes: That, that’s always such a tough question, especially with young guys and as, as we were talking about the stability of the Cleveland’s, Cleveland’s organization and the limited pay work under. Usually his role would have been handled by a veteran guy that could have, you know, was used to sitting on the bench and you know, playing two or three times a week, you know, against, you know, tough left handed hitters. But with the Guardians payroll what it is, you know, that job goes to guys like, you know, Noel young guys that, you know, need to play every day and when you’re what, 6, 5 and 260 and you’ve got a big swing, you know, sitting on the bench twice or three, you know, two or three times a week, you know, not getting regular playing time, you know, that is not conducive to having success. And Big Christmas did not have success this past season and you know that. That’s just a fact of life.
Joe Noga: Yeah, I mean I just to me he has the same feeling as he fits the same profile as two other big Dominican slugging outfielders that went before him in Oscar Gonzalez and Franmil Reyes. And you know, I, I think they gave both Gonzalez and Reyes, you know, enough, basically enough rope to hang themselves enough, enough opportunity to go out there and show who they were as hitters and who they were, were never going to be. And I just wonder if they gave Noel that same opportunity. They all fit the same profile. Each one of those guys, when they got a hold of a ball, they could hit it a mile and it looked and sounded different coming off that bat. No one’s going to forget the bottom of the ninth home run in, in game three of the ALCS against the Yankees. You know, that that was a magical moment. No one’s going to forget Oscar Gonzalez’s walk off home run in the, the wild card series in, in 2022. It’s just that there weren’t enough of those kind of moments and enough of that sort of development as a hitter, not just a slugger, to, to make them, you know, have enough of a case to stick around longer.
Paul Hoynes: Yeah, you know, this is a guy, you know, we’re talking about Noel, who’s been in the organization since 2018. The guardians, you know, have to know this guy inside and out. Did he get a, did he get a fair shot this, this past season? Probably not. But there’s also, this is the way that roster is built. You know, there’s guys coming and going and you know, but I think the, you know, his body of work, the Guardians had a pretty good feel for it and what he could do and I’m sure they projected to see what he could do, and, you know, it just. It just didn’t work out for him. You know, hopefully he catches on in Baltimore and, you know, you know, works to get regular playing time, you know, but his profile right now is working against him almost. That swing is. He’s going to have. He’s going to have to become a lot more disciplined.
Joe Noga: Yeah. And I think he definitely has opportunities there in Baltimore. He’s going to get a chance to, you know, show and win a spot and be able to go out there and play. But again, I wonder if his not being in Cleveland anymore has more to do with who’s coming behind him more than it did, you know, what he was able to do or show when he was here. Because you’ve got Chase DeLauter, you’ve got George Valera, you’ve got other options there in the outfield right now, and, you know, maybe they were content to let those guys have a little bit more, you know, Runway in terms of playing time.
Paul Hoynes: Great point. I, you know, definitely with, you know, young outfielders, big Christmas with the right fielder. But Valera is going to be out there in spring training. Chase DeLauter might see some time in right field. Yeah. I mean, it’s a game where you’ve got to be. Until you establish yourself, you’ve got to be looking over your shoulder all the time because there’s always somebody right behind you.
Joe Noga: You know, we’re going to jump into a little exercise here, just looking down the list of, you know, Postseason awards for 2026 and. And who. Who on the Cleveland roster right now lines up as candidates for certain awards and, you know, honors that will be voted on at the end of 2026. So when we’re sitting, sitting here recording our podcasts for postseason awards at the end of the 2026 season, who’s going to be the Manager of the Year? The Rookie of the Year, the Cy Young, the MVP, and this year, the new award, the Reliever of the Year Award. You know, obviously, the Guardians have candidates, I think, for all of those awards. I guess let’s. Let’s start with the obvious one, the one that’s already in the bank. Stephen Vogt, to win his third consecutive Manager of the Year Award. I wouldn’t put the odds very high of that happening again for a third consecutive year.
Paul Hoynes: Yeah, Joe, he was asked that question at the Winter Meetings, what would have to happen for him to win a third straight Manager of the Year Award? And he goes, I think his answer was tongue. In cheek, of course, we’d have to win about 120 games. I don’t know if that’s going to happen, Joe. I don’t get that kind of vibe from this team.
Joe Noga: But seriously, though, if they won 120 games, would he be manager of the year again?
Paul Hoynes: You know, who knows? I, I would think he would.
Joe Noga: I’m not saying they’re going to win 120 games. If the Guardians go out and win 120 games this year, I think you have to give Stephen Vogt the Manager of the Year award for a third consecutive year. Yeah.
Paul Hoynes: And I don’t know if that’s ever happened before. I don’t know if a manager’s ever won three, three straight awards.
Joe Noga: Well, Nobody’s ever won 120 games before, so that. We’re talking fantasy land here, especially in.
Paul Hoynes: His first three years on a job.
Joe Noga: Yeah, it’s. I pretty. It’s pretty much that you’re good at what you do if you win that award three consecutive years at the beginning. So. All right, let, let’s, let’s get into a little bit more reality here. You know, there are several candidates every year at the beginning of the season, guys that, you know, you’ve never heard of or have gotten maybe a taste of the big leagues in September, who line up as rookie of the year candidates, who in the guardian system could be a, a candidate there? Obviously the guy that comes to mind is Travis Bazzana.
Paul Hoynes: Yeah, Travis Bazzana would definitely be up there. Joe. Second baseman overall, number one pick in 2024. Made it to AAA last year despite some injury problems. Interesting guy. And I think he’s, he’s got to get to the big leagues first. Joe. I think the guy, the guy that, you know, catches my eye, of course, is J. Lauder. He’s already been to the big leagues in a unique fashion, making his big league debut in the postseason. But I think he’s the. That people will probably really be watching because we know he’s on the 40, man. We know he’s going to be in big league camp, and we know that he’s going to draw a lot of attention.
Joe Noga: Yeah. And I think, think in a lot of people’s minds, the expectation is that he’s, he’s already won a spot on the opening day roster and that, you know, they don’t have a lot of other options, that people are so excited and anxious to see him play in the big leagues that, you know, it’s push a button and, you know, skip ahead to, to the End of March. There, there’s a long way to go before that, but unless something drastic happens, I think I’m sort of in line with that. Yeah, I think Chase Dilaudder might be the stronger candidate or the strongest candidate for Rookie of the Year in the American League in the Guardians organization right now, and we’ll see how that works out. Cy Young. The Guardians have actually a couple of guys on the roster who could be sort of under the radar, low key Cy Young candidates in the American League with Gavin Williams and Tanner Bybey.
Paul Hoynes: Yeah, definitely. I thought, you know, Gavin, you know, to me should have got some, some young consideration last season. You know, I thought he had a really kind of a breakout season and, and Tanner has been solid, you know, for three straight years he’s been there. You know, I think probably their best starter and most durable starter. So I think both those guys, you know, if things break right, could be in the conversation.
Joe Noga: Yeah, the, every year I think there’s maybe at least one pitcher in that, you know, on the Guardians roster who, if he has that breakout year or that, that, you know, performances potential should be a consideration for the Cy Young, you know, and in previous years I’ve, I’ve given Cy Young consideration to Emmanuel Clase as a, as a possibility there as well out of the bullpen down ballot vote, but we don’t have that. We wouldn’t have to have something like that this year because of the Reliever of the Year award, a new award the, the BBWAA is creating this year be the first year it’s, it’s voted on and, and I can think of only one guy on the roster right now who, well, maybe two guys on the, the roster in the bullpen right now who would be strong candidates for that. Obviously Cade Smith, but Hunter Gattis as well.
Paul Hoynes: Yeah, both those guys, very, very durable put in. They’ve had a, they’ve got a lot of mileage arms over the last two years, Joe, including postseason runs, but really, really effective guys. When you look at their jobs, to look at the jobs they do, I think, you know, probably, you know, you know, most of the attention to the, I would imagine to the reliever. The relief Pitcher of the Year award is going to go to the closer, which, you know, maybe short changes, you know, 100, a little bit, but it shouldn’t. But you know, and Cade Smith, you know, we, we’ve seen, we haven’t seen him for a full season as a closer, Joe, and that’s really going to be exciting this year to see how he holds up.
Joe Noga: Yeah. And the Guardians also signed Sean Armstrong. Again, you talk about that dynamic between, you know, when, when, when it comes down to voting for this award, do you just vote for a closer or do you consider setup guys, middle relief guys, long relief guys? You could break this award down into, you know, three different categories, but like you, I agree. I think, you know, closer is probably going to get the most attention because saves are a real measurable statistic that, you know, people value. I, I, I agree. I think Hunter Gattis might get short change, but Sean Armstrong, based on the, the season he had last year, as, you know, mostly a setup guy who pitched in a lot of games, you know, there, there’s, there’s definite value in what he brings as well. Do you think we need to break that award out even further to, to honor middle, relief guys or setup guys?
Paul Hoynes: Boy, I don’t know. There was such a debate among the BBWA just to get this award. This has been going on for years, Joe. People have been arguing about this for a long time. So I don’t know if we could, if we got to get, if we’re going to go to a middle reliever, setup guy this much, be. This, this is probably as, as, you know, as much, as much as the awards will be stretched for a long time.
Joe Noga: I mean, it wasn’t, it was no doubt in my mind in terms of, you know, you needed something like this, because I didn’t think relief pitchers were getting a fair shake when it came to the Cy Young voting. A guy who, who pitches in 70 games in a season and, and impacts a club, you know, almost half the games that they play. I think there’s, there’s a need for recognizing those, those pitchers, and they were, they were not getting recognized in the same way when it came to, you know, Cy Young voting. This, this award is certainly needed and warranted, and I, you know, I hope Kate Smith pitches his tail off and gets some consideration for it.
Paul Hoynes: Yeah, no doubt about it. What, Joe? What about the mvp?
Joe Noga: I mean, if anybody listening to this podcast doesn’t already know who the Guardians candidate for MVP this season should be, will be, and will always be, I think it’s, you might as well just press stop right now. Jose Ramirez again, what he’s been able to do over the last, you know, even just six seasons, you know, finishing in the, what, five, what, four times in the last six seasons? I think something like that.
Paul Hoynes: He was third again last season.
Joe Noga: Third again last season. Another finalist. I think it’s a, it’s A foregone conclusion that if Jose Ramirez is healthy that he’s going to be there in contention in the top half of the ballot for the mvp. Is there anybody else on the roster who has the potential to do that right now for the Guardians?
Paul Hoynes: Wow, that is a great question. And Joe, that is what they need if they’re going to be a serious team. They need somebody behind Ramirez that’s going to push Jose and is going to challenge Jose and is going to help him, you know, drive in runs for this club. And I don’t know, Joe, I don’t, I don’t see it right now. I hope I’m wrong, you know, I hope somebody, you know, has a breakout season, but I’m not sure who, who I’d kind of saddle with that, those expectations.
Joe Noga: Batman needs his Robin. Right?
Paul Hoynes: That’s exactly right.
Joe Noga: He, that that’s what the Guardians need right there. If Stephen Kwan is around, can Stephen Kwan produce enough to, to be that guy? I certainly don’t think even, even the very best of Stephen Kwan for an entire season. I still don’t think outshines Jose Ramirez on his own roster to garner MVP votes. You know, he, he gives you what he gives you, but it’s, it’s not MVP worthy numbers. At least from my perspective, never having voted for an MVP award that, you know, I, I may maybe would consider things a little differently. But Stephen Kwan, the only other candidate, the only other really all star candidate, quality candidate right now heading into training camp for the Guardians.
Paul Hoynes: Joe, two interesting names. Tell me what you think of this. Manzardo, who had 27 home runs last season. And Kaifus, Kaifus is an interesting guy to me. We saw him, you know, playing really well down the stretch in September. But those are both so young. Two young guys. I don’t know if they’re ready to kind of take that big step in their career.
Joe Noga: Yeah, I don’t, I don’t know if you know, Manzardo, I think think to like we said, like we’ve been saying, like Stephen Vogt said at the end of the year, needs to show that he can be durable and, and perform from beginning to end of the season, you know, have that sort of strength and, and come in a little stronger and more durable for, for an 162 game run. And, and Kaifus, I don’t think, I think he doesn’t know what he doesn’t know yet. And this, this season is going to be all about finding out, you know, what he doesn’t know. And if they can overcome that and become MVP candidates. That would be the story of the decade for the Guardians this year, for sure. Coins. That’s going to wrap up today’s edition of the Cleveland Baseball Talk Podcast. I will check back in with you on Wednesday.
Paul Hoynes: Deal.