CLEVELAND, Ohio — In this episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast, Ethan Sands and Chris Fedor break down the Cavs’ narrow 120–116 win over a severely depleted Indiana Pacers team — and why it raised more concerns than confidence.
Takeaways:
The Cavaliers Have a “Bad Habit” of Relying on Comebacks and Talent
Despite securing a 120-116 win, the Cavaliers’ performance against a severely depleted Indiana Pacers team was categorized as “another bad performance.” The team trailed for 36 of the 48 minutes and relied on a late surge to win. While the Cavs are statistically one of the NBA’s best fourth-quarter teams by net rating, key players like Darius Garland acknowledge this is not a positive trend, as they shouldn’t consistently be in positions where they need a miraculous comeback. The speakers warn that this pattern of “playing with fire” and believing they can simply “flip a switch” creates a false sense of security that is unsustainable and will not be effective against more talented playoff-caliber opponents.
The Team’s Talent Gap Has Shrunk, and Key Players Are Underperforming
A critical point made is that the Cavaliers can no longer rely on their talent alone to overwhelm opponents, as their talent advantage is not what it was last season. Key players who performed at an elite level last year have not consistently reached that same form; the transcript notes that Evan Mobley is not playing like an All-NBA player and Darius Garland has only shown his All-Star form in spurts. The team lacks a Sixth Man of the Year candidate and does not have the same star depth as the previous year. This reality means the Cavs must adopt the mindset of a less-talented team, focusing on fundamentals, consistent 48-minute effort, and attention to detail rather than assuming their talent will carry them to victory.
A Lack of Forceful Locker Room Leadership Is a Major Concern
The podcast raises a significant concern about a leadership void within the team, specifically missing the type of blunt, accountability-driven presence provided by former players George Niang and Caris LeVert. It’s argued the team needs an unfiltered presence in the locker room who is willing to call out teammates, a role that doesn’t fit the natural personalities of stars like Donovan Mitchell, Evan Mobley, or Jarrett Allen. While Max Strus has the vocal willingness to fill this role, his influence is limited by his inability to play due to injury. The discussion goes as far as to suggest the Cavaliers’ front office should consider trading for a player with this specific character profile to help correct issues with chemistry and on-court accountability.
Uncertainty Surrounds the Return and Impact of Max Strus
An injury update on Max Strus revealed that while his evaluation was positive, he requires more time and will be re-evaluated within the next four weeks, pushing his potential return further into the season. This creates significant uncertainty about what version of Strus the team will get back. Having missed training camp, preseason, and a significant portion of the regular season with a difficult foot injury, there’s concern he may not be the same high-energy, high-impact player he was in the past. The speakers question how much a “lesser version” of Strus can truly elevate the team, tempering expectations that his return will be the definitive solution to their ongoing struggles.
Craig Porter Jr. Has Emerged as a Key Role Player
In the midst of the team’s struggles and injuries, Craig Porter Jr. has been a significant bright spot, carving out a crucial role with his impactful play. In the win against the Pacers, he nearly recorded a triple-double and was on the floor in crunch time, providing essential playmaking, rebounding, and defense. His performance has earned the trust of teammates and the coaching staff, with Darius Garland noting Porter’s ability to initiate the offense takes pressure off of him. However, a lingering concern is that head coach Kenny Atkinson has, at times, needed to be implored by his assistants to put Porter in the game, raising questions about whether his vital role will diminish once the roster returns to full health.
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Transcript
NOTE: This transcript was generated by artificial intelligence and could contain misspellings and errors.
Ethan Sands: What up, Cavs Nation? I’m your host, Ethan Sands, and I’m back with another episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. And joining me Today, Chris Fedor, cleveland.com Cavs beat reporter. And we’re coming to you guys after The Cavs latest win, 120-116 over the Indiana Pacers. And Chris, this is an Indiana Pacers team that does not reflect the one that bounced the Cleveland Cavaliers from the Eastern Conference semifinals last season in five games. This is a debilitated Indiana Pacers team. It might be easier for me to name the players who aren’t on the Pacers team than who were available tonight. They did not have Obi Toppin. They did not obviously have Tyrese Haliburton. They didn’t have Benedict Matheran either. So they were led by Pascal Siakam, Aaron Neesmith and Andrew Nemhard. But Chris, this game for me continues this issue that the Cavs have been having all season long. The inability to play 48 minutes, relying too heavily on talent rather than effort. And we know that that playoff teams cannot play like that, cannot rely on talent alone. Effort, intensity, energy, all of these things are required to have success in the playoff games. Yes, the Cavs were without Donovan Mitchell. They didn’t have Max Drus again. Of course, we’ll get into that situation a little bit later. And they again did not have Larry Nance Jr. But Chris, this was again a six win Indiana Pacers team who were in the game and leading for 36 minutes of this 48 minute contest. What did you take away from this one?
Chris Fedor: This is another bad performance by the Cavs. Overall, they’re finding ways to win these games late. They’ve kind of become synonymous with these fourth quarter comebacks. A lot of the guys in the locker room talked about it after the game, but I asked Darius like if this is in, if this is even a good thing. And he said he didn’t think it was. He said on one hand, you know, we’re learning how to win these games in the fourth quarter. We’re learning how to deal with adversity. We’re learning what to do and what not to do in fourth quarter situations. But he just doesn’t want it to have to continue to come down to this. I mean, the San Antonio game, the Memphis game, there was a Chicago game where they had to rally in the fourth. They tried to rally against Detroit the other night and they couldn’t complete that comeback. So they are the fourth best fourth quarter team in the NBA in terms of net rating behind the Celtics, Timberwolves and Pistons. But I just don’t think they want to continue to get themselves in these situations where they have to do that. Look, this should have been easier for the gaps. We understand that for a majority of this season things haven’t been easy for this team. We understand all of the things that they’re still working through and the absences that they’re dealing with and the ever changing starting lineup, the ever changing rotation, who Kenny can rely on coming off the bench, that changes almost nightly. So, yeah, they’re still searching for answers in a multitude of ways, but Indiana is the worst team in the NBA and the Cavs led for nine total minutes and six of those came in the fourth quarter once they finally took the lead, basically. So for the first three quarters against an undermanned and terrible Indiana team that is probably going to have more ping pong balls than anybody and set a franchise record for futility tonight with 13 losses in a row. They’ve never done that before before tonight. So that’s what the Cavs were up against. Like Micah Potter came off the street. Men are kid, by the way. Came off the street and had to play big minutes for the Pacers because of everything that they’re missing. It shouldn’t have been this hard. Even without Donovan Mitchell, even with Dean Wade leaving the game and not being able to play in the second half, even with Max Stru still not being able to debut like this should have been a lot easier for the Cavs. They should have been able to impose their will. They should have been able to show just, just how overmatched Indiana was coming into the game. And they just didn’t do that until it got to the fourth quarter and until they felt all of that pressure, until they looked up at the scoreboard and said, oh my God, we got to turn it on here. It’s just, it is a bad habit of theirs, this idea that they feel they can flip a switch in the fourth quarter or they can just crank up the defensive intensity in the fourth quarter. It’s something that they’re going to have to break as, as the season continues to go on.
Ethan Sands: And Chris, we’ve talked about it from last year, right? Darius Garland was one of the best clutch players in the NBA last season. Obviously he hasn’t been the same for a majority of the season based on the off season toe surgery and still trying to come back from that. But the Cavs team as a whole, sure, they might have a good net rating in fourth quarters. But in clutch moments, according to NBA.com clutch data, they played in 21 contests that have been deemed clutch performances. They’re 8 and 13 in those. They have a win percentage of 38.1%. That’s not going to get it done in especially when we talk about in the playoffs. So sure, we can talk about the positive of Darius Garland looking more like his old self, having 29 points, obviously having a great fourth quarter when he scored 14 of those 29 points in that period alone. But there’s still more that the Cavs need, and you mentioned it there, Chris, being able to turn it on in the fourth quarter. It can’t be the indication of how this Cavs team thinks the season is going to go. It can’t be foreshadowing of how the Cavs say, oh, we’re going to be healthy, we’re going to be able to flip a switch. This Cavs team is extremely talented. We know that the roster is built where they can match up with anybody when they’re healthy. But if they don’t have the little things down packed, if they don’t have the energy and the intensity that we continue to talk about on this podcast, then there are still going to be questions. And one of the players that we’ve talked about on this podcast that stepped up again tonight and has since getting more opportunity is Craig Porter Jr. And Craig Porter Jr. Tonight became the fourth player in Cavs history, first off the bench to finish with at least eight points, nine rebounds, nine assists, three blocks and two steals, going along with LeBron James, Larry Nash Jr. And Brad Dougherty. He is just the second player with those numbers off the bench in NBA history, going along with Baron, Davis and Chris. We know and we’ve mentioned this ad nauseum on this podcast. Craig Porter Jr. Is much shorter than all of these other players. He’s 6′1-6′2 on a good day and he’s still making an impact and it’s great to see him doing this. But again, this is a question of whether or not the Cavs are going to be sustaining this. And especially when we talk about this team getting back healthy, whether or not Craig Porter Jr. Isn’t going to automatically fall back down the rotation and whether or not his impact is going to be lost in those conversations.
Chris Fedor: So I want to go back before we get into Craig, I want to go back to something that you said about the Cavs being talented. Yes, they are. But other teams around the NBA are talented too and like their talent gap is not what it was Last year. It’s just not. Evan Mobley is not playing like a second team all NBA player. He’s not playing like somebody who is worthy of all star consideration. He did last year. He was great last year. He deserved the first time all star appearance. He deserved to be second team all NBA. He deserved to be on the MVP periphery. But he hasn’t been like that this year. And Darius Garland, he played like an all Star last year. He was great last year. He’s not playing like that this year. He’s starting to turn the corner. He was very good in the fourth quarter. That was the DG of old, as Kenny Atkinson said. That was a shot making display. The degree of difficulty on some of those shots, very, very high. And he made it look easy and he was getting to his spots and he was playing under control. And all of those things that that you saw from Darius last year when he did make the all star team for the second time in his career. That showed up again in the fourth quarter. That has shown up in spurts, but not consistently. They don’t have a finalist for six man of the year on this roster either the way that they did with Ty Jerome last year. The Cavs were the only team in the NBA with three all Stars last year. The Cavs had multiple guys on the all NBA team and they had a finalist for six man of the year. That’s not this team. They cannot. Based on who they are and the way that this roster is made up, they can’t just overwhelm these legitimate contenders with their talent. They can’t. So yeah, they’re talented. And yeah, they seem to think that their talent will be able to win them a bunch of games and maybe even take over in fourth quarters. But guess what? Detroit’s talented to. Boston’s talented too. New York is talented too. Same thing with Philadelphia. Switch it over to the Western Conference. Are the Cavs significantly more talented than San Antonio? Are the Cavs significantly more talented than the Denver Nuggets or the Minnesota Timberwolves or the Houston Rockets? So like this talent gap that people continue to allude to, it’s just not there. It’s not there to the same level that it was last year. So they have to learn that we’re not that team, that we do have to do these little things, that it is more about attention to detail, it is more about fundamental closeouts. Like all these little things, it is about playing hard for 48 minutes. All these little things that these not as talented teams seem to have to do to Try and close that talent gap. The Cavs have to start thinking like that because they’re just not as talented as they think they are. They’re not. The other thing that I think was notable from tonight, Kenny only played nine. That was on a night that Donovan Mitchell didn’t even play. He shortened his rotation. And it was on a night that Dean Wade couldn’t play in the second half. He shortened his rotation, played eight in the second half, didn’t even play nine in the second half. So it is clear that as the season has progressed, the number of players that Kenny Atkinson implicitly trusts has shrunk. And on a night that the Cavs were shorthanded, he didn’t even go to Lonzo because he didn’t feel like he could, because he didn’t feel like this was a matchup for Lonzo. And again, we’ve talked about it. There are going to be some where they need his size, where they need his versatility, where they need his peskiness on the defensive end of the floor. But as long as Craig Porter Jr. Plays like this, he almost had a triple double. He was out there in late game crunch time situation. Kenny took DeAndre off the court because his assistants were imploring him to put Craig Porter Jr. Back in the game. And Craig delivered. He took advantage of that opportunity. And if he continues to do that over and over and over again, it doesn’t matter the situation. Kenny can’t go away from him. He’s just been too impactful. He’s been too meaningful to their success offensively and defensively. And Darius Garland was talking about it after the game. He was like, hey, late in the fourth quarter, it didn’t have to all be me. On a night that Donovan wasn’t there, it didn’t have to all be me. I didn’t have to bring the ball up the floor over and over and over again. I didn’t have to initiate offense or over and over and over again because Craig was capable of doing that and because we, the team and the coaching staff trust Craig in that situation. And I thought it was meaningful that late in the game the Cavs made the substitution, they took out DeAndre and they put Craig in and Craig delivered. He made big play after big play down the stretch. And if he continues to do that, like, yes, there are going to be more guys that seemingly get back healthy, but if he continues to do that, Kenny’s going to have no choice but to continue to ride with Craig.
Ethan Sands: And Chris, I’m completely in agreement with you. But the only thing that makes me hesitant is this is not the first time where we’ve heard assistant coaches having to implore Kenny Atkinson to make that change to owe back to Craig Porter Jr. And I’ve talked about it this season before about maybe Craig Porter Jr’s leash is shorter than most players and sure he’s a backup backup point guard, but it feels like Craig Porter Jr. As Darius Garland has mentioned, is not only bringing to the defensive end of the floor which Kenny Atkinson has raved and preached and needed from Craig Porter Jr. Especially point of attack defense guarding 94ft and all these things, but also the offensive creation and nine assists for Craig Porter Jr. But the fact that Kenny Atkinson may not have put him back in the game if it wasn’t for the assistant coaches is worrisome to me in this situation. But Chris, I don’t necessarily want to continue to harp on this game in particular. Again it was against a six win Indiana Pacers. There’s other things that I want to discuss. First and foremost, I have to do this FanDuel sports what the heck is going on Dan? Like I’m at home, can’t watch the game in a crunch time situation. Of course again it’s the Indiana Pacers who won six games. So you think you know what’s going to happen, but I’m listening to it on the radio. Now. I know this is a little bit abstract, but FanDuel sports in December there were reports coming out that they could shudder if Dazn doesn’t come to agreement on some deals. And I was sitting there like is this the end of FanDuel sports? Obviously unlikely, right? But, but I was just like so caught off guard because I thought it might have been my stream, my service, my my Internet, whatever. And then like everybody on social media is posting the same picture on screens and it was so jaw dropping to me and Chris obviously at that point I’m tuning into everything that’s being tweeted and posted on social media and trying to just keep up because I know I have to do this show at some point tonight. But also just like the quality of streaming services that we’ve had and obviously going to Amazon Prime Video and all these other things and making things more difficult to watch. Like some games you have to go on Peacock and then you have to upgrade your account from what it might have been to get the access to the game. Like it just feels like everything is so much harder to watch these games and it doesn’t make the viewing experience. As someone who had to watch. That was horrible. I wouldn’t wish that on anybody who’s not in an arena.
Chris Fedor: All the players were talking about it in the locker room post game, and we told Craig, like, hey, they lost the feed once you blocked that shot. And he was like, oh. So I made Fanduel go off the air. He was making a joke about it. I think it’s happened twice now for Fanduel, and both times it was here in Indiana. So the Pacers might have to get something together when it comes to, you know, power service, that kind of stuff. And it’s unfortunate because the way that the Cavs played down the stretch is what you want to see as a fan. That was beautiful basketball, for the most part. I mean, they had that over and back, which was bad. Evan Mobley caught the ball, flipped it back to Sam Merrill. It was an over and back, gave Indiana another shot. Indiana couldn’t inbound the ball either. So, you know, but for the most part, like, down the stretch, the way that the Cavs were sharing it offensively, the way that they were defending at a high level, the way that they were communicating, the way that they were just, you know, in control and. And steady in the face of constant Indiana pressure, the shot making in the fourth quarter, if you tuned in in the first three quarters, that’s what you were hoping to see, and you didn’t see that down the stretch. The Cavs, they took it to a different level, and it’s just a matter of, okay, can they do that now in the previous three quarters? Cause Darius even said, he’s like, hey, like, remember last year when we won games going away? We were able to sit in the fourth quarter. We were able to get young guys, meaningful minutes in the fourth quarter. We were able to not have to exert ourselves physically and mentally late in these games. And they’re just. I don’t know, it just feels like a team that, for a majority of the game, continues to play with fire. And we all know what’s going to happen if you continue to play with fire. Look, they tried. They tried the other night against Detroit, and they couldn’t finish it because they were against a team that was better than them, and they had comparable talent, and they were in clutch situations before, and they have shown that they can thrive in those clutch situations. You know, aside from the San Antonio turnaround game, like, none of these fourth quarter comebacks are things that you should be beating your chest about, right? Hey, we came back against the Memphis Grizzlies. Hey, we came back against the Denver Nuggets with a bunch of guys missing, you know what I mean? Like, it’s, I think it’s giving them a false sense of security, to be honest with you.
Ethan Sands: And it’s a story that we’ve seen even as Darius Garland was like trying to be nice about it. Last year was the same thing. Like we’ve been telling them they need to keep the gas on, keep the flow going rather than letting teams back in. Last year it was easier because they had 20, 30 point leagues. Now they’re coming from behind the whole game and have to work harder to get where they want to go. And I just don’t think you can keep playing like this in this level. And I don’t know what’s going to take because I know Kenny Atkinson wants to say that there is no hangover from a 64 win season. Well, seems like the players have this exuberant confidence which is necessary in the NBA. Everybody has to be a little bit delusional. It’s to a point where the talent and the play are not racking up. You obviously are 21 and 17. They should have more fire. And I thought Donovan Mitchell not being on the floor might have done it. And this isn’t for everybody. Sam Merrill played hard for 48 minutes. Craig Porter Jr. Played hard for 48 minutes. Naquan Tomlin played hard for 48 minutes. That’s how the Cavs need to play. That’s who the Cavs need to play like for the entire game. Usually Jaylon Tyson’s in that conversation. He was sick. That doesn’t take away from what he had going on. But I just think there needs to be more from everybody rather than just pouring, pointing at a handful of players and being like, oh yeah, those players continuously come out with this level of energy. I thought maybe Thomas Bryant would have been helpful in this kind of contest, especially being back in Indiana. Right. Penny Atkinson had talked about Thomas Bryant having a 20 minute conversation with the team in a film session to break down what the Indiana Pacers were doing and he didn’t get to display any of it. So I don’t know what needs to happen, what change needs to be made because it feels like it’s internal.
Chris Fedor: I do think it’s internal, Ethan. And the other day the Cavs had player led film session where a lot of the players spoke up about what they were seeing on film, what they liked, what they didn’t like, and usually the coaches lead it. But Kenny said 90% of it was the players. And the most Vocal guy during that was. Was Max Strus. And I’ve had a lot of conversations with a lot of people in and around the NBA over the last 48 hours. Just, just about the Cavs. Cause I always like to get other people’s view of, of the Cavs. Something that I brought up. And I’ve been waiting to see, like, how this was going to evolve throughout the course of the season. But Ethan, we’re almost halfway through the season at this point, and I think I’m ready to finally say it. The Cavs miss George Niang and they miss Caris Levert and they miss a level of leadership. Behind the scenes they do. And I just don’t think they have the right. I wonder if they have the right guys from a leadership standpoint. And Kenny has talked throughout the course of the season, even in the struggles. I believe in our leadership, we have great leadership. But do they have the right kind of leaders? George was somebody who was able to interact with anybody, anybody. He had no filter. He was willing to call out guys. And because of the success that he had on his resume and how much he played in the NBA and how he worked himself into the player that he was, he was willing to speak up and use his voice. And it mattered when he did. I wrote this at the time of the trade last year. I said chemistry is a delicate thing. Locker room dynamics are delicate. And I remember writing that the Cavs lost something when they got rid of. Of George Niang and Caris Lavert. And you felt that the day that the trade was made, the overwhelming feeling was not excitement about DeAndre. It wasn’t. It was sadness and kind of, where do we go from here after losing two guys that we know mattered so much behind the scenes in the locker room? And they miss it. Thomas Bryant is. Is not that he’s energetic, he’s somebody who has won, gotten to the NBA finals, but he’s like this ray of sunshine that always brings positivity. They need an a hole. That’s what they need in the locker room. And George was willing at times to be that. And Karras, Karras had a voice in that locker room as well. And I just wonder. I’m not saying that they don’t have it. I just wonder if they do have enough of those kinds of guys. And obviously the trade deadline is right around the corner. And president of basketball operations Kobe Altman is very interested in locker room dynamics. He understands how much they mean, you know, years ago, about seven years ago, in the last year of LeBron James, he felt something off with his basketball team and he overhauled the entire roster because the way that he phrased it is that they were marching a slow death and he just didn’t have the right components in that locker room and it wasn’t the right fit on the court. And I know that the Cavs don’t view it the same way. I know the Cavs believe in this roster more than they did when they made that kind of drastic move. But I do think it’s something that they have to continue to look at because, you know, Max can be that guy, but it’s hard to be that guy when you can’t play. Max hasn’t played at all. And it was telling to me that he was very, very vocal in that film session the other day. But he doesn’t play. He can’t play yet. So, yes, his voice matters. Yes, he can be an extension of the coaching staff. Yes, he can give tips and pointers during timeouts and stuff like that. But it means more coming from a guy who can fly, who is playing, who is part of the every night rotation. And I just wonder, where is that going to come from? That’s not Evan. That’s not who he is. Right? That’s not Jarrett. That’s not who he is. And it’s not even really who Donovan is. Donovan’s not that kind of guy. He takes leadership in a different kind of form. And him. And I even talked about it at training camp, I was like, do you have to be meaner? Do you have to try and hold these guys to a harsher standard? Like, is that a role that you have to take on because George isn’t there, because Tristan isn’t there, because Kerris isn’t there? You know what I mean? And Donovan, by nature, you know this, he’s optimistic. He looks at the positives. He takes a big picture approach. But when things aren’t going the way that they probably should, this was a game where you would think if. If George was on this team, this was a game where I think he would have spoken up in the locker room afterward and said, no, not good enough. Indiana sucks. They’re six. And whatever they are, they’ve got the worst record in the NBA. And we trailed for nearly 37 minutes. And it took a miraculous fourth quarter comeback where there was a total ton of brilliant shot making. And there were these elite level defensive plays, some from Evans, some from Craig, some from these other guys. No, not good enough. If we want to be the team that we want to be. No. If we say that we’re the team that we say we are. No. And I just wonder, you know, who has that kind of personality in this locker room. And when I was having these conversations with a couple of different people over the last 48 hours, they brought up locker room dynamics. They brought up, you know, holding people accountable. They, they, they brought up blunt, forceful leadership. And it just made me start to think about it a little bit. But it was something that I had already been kind of thinking about, kind of feeling. And I, I do believe that, you know, for all of the questions about to this point, even I think the Cavs should look to trade for George Nang. I do. And, and I don’t think. Or a guy like him. And I don’t think it’s somebody that, that is, you know, going to play 30 minutes a night or something along those lines. And I know all of his limitations, but like somebody like that, that can come in and kind of like ruffle feathers in the locker room, that guy, I think they should look at potentially trading for. And it doesn’t have to specifically be George. It doesn’t have to. But you know that he fits, you know that he would be comfortable doing that. But, but somebody like that, they can’t get Dylan Brooks. Dylan Brooks is, according to Matt Ishbia, he’s untouchable. He’s not going anywhere. But that kind of guy, I think, I think that kind of guy would help this team significantly behind the scenes.
Ethan Sands: Wow. So many places to go from here. Wow. Wow, wow. Okay, let’s talk about who’s not here, because I feel like that’s this jump off point from the George Niang thing. Players who have left or coaches who have left the organization who could have filled that role, players that come to mind. Tristan Thompson, I remember after the Golden State warriors win might have even happened at halftime, he called out the entire team. Right. I think of JB Bickerstaff and how he held this team accountable and they weren’t ready for that level of accountability now, now they feel like they need it. And then, Chris, you talk about players that might be on this team already, who Kenny Atkinson is trying to get that leadership out of. And I think Sam Merrill is a player that might not necessarily be an A hole, but holds himself in the team to such a high standard that he can be critical in conversations to a point that his voice, especially because he’s quiet and doesn’t say a whole lot and will joke, but isn’t necessarily trying to say anything mean will hold more value. And Kenny Axon talked about that a little bit today, I believe, about Sam Merrill’s growing leadership, growing voice and wanting to pull that out of him and meeting that for this group. And I think it’s telling. Yeah, and I think it’s telling because he, he has those conversations 35,000ft in the air watching film with Donovan. And Donovan has been truthful about Sam Arrow calling him out on, hey, that was a bad shot. Hey, that’s not what you’re supposed to do there. Do something else. And if you’re able to have conversations with the star player, the franchise face and have these upfront conversations, I think the Cavs need his kind of voice. The Cavs need that kind of emphasis, especially if he’s going to play how he’s been playing this season. I think you have more weight to everything that you’re doing. And Max Struse, obviously the Cavs have missed him. And Chris, we know today the Cavs came out with an injury update on Max Strus, that he underwent evaluation and imaging on his left foot following off season surgery. And the evaluation and imaging was positive. But it did reveal that he needed more time and he’s going to be reevaluated within the next four weeks. So Chris, as we’ve talked about on this podcast, we didn’t assume that he was going to be back until the earliest the trade deadline or by All Star Weekend. And it’s lining up for that to be the potential timeline for Max Drus. And sure, we don’t know how it’s actually going to time up. He has to get reevaluated within the next four weeks. And again, the cryptic messaging from the Cavs within that can be tomorrow, that can be next week, that can be in a month, who knows? But we’re going to find out all together. And I think the Max Truth piece that you mentioned, him being the most vocal in these meetings might be worrisome again, and I don’t know if I’ve used that word too much on these podcasts, but, but for someone who’s not playing to be like, hey, this is an area of issue, I can’t do anything, please address this. I think that’s something. And him knowing that he’s the only one that’s going to call it out or is willing to do that is necessary. And obviously you mentioned Thomas Bryant. He’s mentioned that the Indiana Pacers last year, who were 20 and 18 at the 38 game mark of the season, didn’t have these accountability and Hard conversations until like a month before the playoffs. So he thinks the Cavs are doing things better in that regard. But sometimes you need more. And Chris, I think this Cavs team in many aspects needs more.
Chris Fedor: Well, the other question with Max here is that, okay, if he’s going to miss all this time and he didn’t have training camp and he didn’t have preseason and he didn’t have this, this ramp up period, what version of Max are the Cavs going to get? I think it’s fair to wonder about that. We knew from the very beginning that this was a tricky injury. We knew from the very beginning that this was an injury that guys that have had it and they undergone the surgery have struggled. When it comes to coming back, either the timeline changes, there are setbacks, or it’s just the way that they can move. The way that they can function on the court is a little bit different. Zion Williamson missed an entire season because of this. Kevin Durant had an issue with this. It’s hard. And Max is somebody who is constantly moving. Max is somebody who is constantly involved in the action, whether it’s setting screens, running around screens, chasing other guys off of screens, rebounding, boxing out, switching onto bigger guys. Think about all the stuff about Max and I wrote about this. I think it was about a week and a half ago with a minor update on him that he hadn’t even started practicing yet. And you know, he had been doing these one on one workouts and he was going so hard, from what I hear in those workouts, that the Cavs were like, no, stop, we gotta shut you down for a little bit. We gotta save you from yourself because you’re just overdoing it because he doesn’t know any other way. That’s who he is. At his core. He is like an overachiever, a try hard guy, somebody who is ultra competitive. And so, you know, I think part of this, Ethan, is a lot of people were asking like, hey, we’re past the four month mark here, what’s going on with Max? But when you got to that point and he wasn’t progressing and he wasn’t practicing and he wasn’t doing two on two and three on three, you’re like, oh man, something might be wrong here. And it was.
Ethan Sands: Yeah. And I think this team is just continuing to search and I mentioned this in my, in my text to our some tech subscribers about just getting him acclimated is going to be difficult. Kenny Ackinson is talking about finding rotations, finding lineups, finding combinations that work Putting Max Drews into this equation is going to make things more difficult. It’s going to make things better for the team depending on what version Max Drew gets back. But as Chris mentioned there, he has to have a ramp up process of some sort. And to my knowledge, or based on what Kenny Atkinson has said, they hope that the end of the regular season is going to be that for REH and trying to get him ready to be potentially a playoff starter, depending on who they have available. And again, health is a big thing there. But that changes the outlook on the entire roster depending on where Kenny Hagerson plugs and plays him into the game. Because then you talk about Sam Merrow coming off the bench, who Kenny is, talk about wanting to use him in that capacity rather than as a starter. DeAndre Hunter, right? Being a guy that comes off the bench, potentially a six man, Dean Wade then coming off the bench and this grows and grows and grows. And again gets back to the conversation of where Does Craig Porter Jr. Fall into this topic?
Chris Fedor: I mean, it also gets back to the point of they have so far this season a lesser version of Evan Mobley. So far this season they have a lesser version of Darius Garland. So far this season they have a lesser version of DeAndre Hunter. So yeah, Max is going to help. Max brings things that they need. But if it’s a lesser version of Max Strus from in the past, what does that really do for this team and how much does that tip the scales? How much does that really help? How much does that put guys in their proper role and make things make more sense from a depth chart perspective? Because I think Kenny is finally admitting and I think other people inside the organization are admitting. We don’t know if we’re going to get the Max Strus that, that we’ve gotten in the past. Max was good in the playoffs last year. Max was impactful in the playoffs last year. And when he’s been in the starting lineup, even last year when he was in the starting lineup, his on off rating. The team’s on off rating. That version of Max Strus, if they were getting that version of Max Strus is different. You can have different conversations. You can look at that as a potential addition, like a trade deadline addition, you know what I mean? But if, if you are already starting to think we don’t know if we’re going to get that guy and more likely than not we’re not going to.
Ethan Sands: Get that guy, so what?
Chris Fedor: It’s not to diminish Max or his value or anything like that. But it’s just him coming back from this particular injury and trying to play through it. I just don’t think he’s going to be able to be the guy that he’s been for the Cavs. And. And they’re going to need them to be.
Ethan Sands: Yeah. And that just only leaves for more difficult conversations for Katie Akinson, for the organization, for Max who wants to be out there and clearly being involved in these player led film sessions, wants to be there, wants to help and obviously we know he’s a Hooper, but Chris, the last part of this conversation is the playoffs and what we’re talking about. And the Cavs need to get there, need to be the best version of themselves entering. And the Eastern Conference has just been wild. I mean, the Cavs currently sit as the sixth seed in the Eastern Conference with 21 wins and 17 losses and tonight that’s only because the Washington Wizards defeated the Orlando Magic. I wasn’t expecting that. That wasn’t on my bingo card. And then you talk about simply how the Cavs and the Eastern Conference have shaped out over the last couple of days. I mean, the Boston Celtics are the second seed in the Eastern Conference in a year when most people thought they were taking a gap year. Most people thought that they were going to be playing for Lottery Bull. Right? Then you talk about the New York Knicks getting outplayed by the Detroit Pistons, the potential Eastern Conference front runners getting held to 90 points in their last matchup against the Detroit Pistons, who not everybody had and at the top of the Eastern Conference before the season started. Then you look at the Charlotte Hornets beating the OKC Thunder the other night. Like there are just so many things. And of course tonight’s game between the Cavs and the Indiana Pacers, that is just showing that the 82 game season is a grind. And this is a Cavs team that cannot take any team lightly, especially with the injuries that they’re managing, the game style that they’re playing, the effort level that they’re giving, and then also just the talent level around the league. And Donovan Mitchell said it the other day when they were placing the Denver Nuggets. And I don’t know if he was trying to be funny about it or he was just actually being serious. But these teams that don’t have everybody equipped to play or available to play can be more dangerous because you don’t know who some of these players on the end of the bench are going to play. Like, what they’re going to be able to do, how they’re going to be able to impact games. And that has hurt the Cavs to this point in the season because they’ve gotten caught off guard too many times to count and there’s still many games left to play and figure out whether or not they can change this portion of their identity and actually showcase effort for 48 minutes because I don’t know if they have to this point in the season.
Chris Fedor: Big win tonight against Indiana. We can officially say that the Cavs are a playoff team. They moved out of the play in. They are now sixth in the Eastern Conference. One of those locked in playoff spots. Yeah, I mean, like a lot of the guys were saying after the game that the only thing that matters is that we found a way, we won the game, and at the end of the day that’s what we had to do against a team like Indiana. But I think at some point they also need to understand that the how and the why matter. And I do think that they are taking some of their issues a little bit more seriously. I do think they are recognizing some of their shortcomings and some of their flaws and some of their weaknesses, and that’s really, really important. But the next step, Ethan, is as observers, we want to see evidence of them recognizing that and making the proper changes to fix those things. And that’s the next step because I don’t think they’ve gotten to that point yet. And I think tonight against Indiana was another example of that.
Ethan Sands: And with all that being said, because there’s only so much to be said at this point in the season after a win against the Indiana Basers. That’ll wrap up today’s episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. But remember to become a Cavs insider and interact with Cross, Chris, me and Jimmy by subscribing to Subtext. Don’t think we forgot about your subtext questions for our next hey Chris episode. That’ll come up shortly, but if you still want to send them in, the only way to do so is signing up for a 14 day free trial or visiting cleveland.com Cavs and clicking on the blue bar at the top of the page. If you don’t like it, that’s fine. All you have to do is text the word stop. It’s easy, but we can tell you that the people who sign up stick around because this is the best way to get insider coverage on the Cavs from me, Chris and Jimmy. This isn’t just our podcast, it’s your podcast. And the only way to have your voice heard is through some text. Y’ all be safe. We out.