CLEVELAND, Ohio — Welcome to the first 2026 edition of the Terry’s Talkin’ podcast, with cleveland.com columnist Terry Pluto and host David Campbell. In today’s episode, they talk about the Browns’ decision to fire Kevin Stefanski, and some of the candidates being interviewed to replace him.
Also, they discuss the Cavs and Darius Garland as he starts to look more like his old self.
They also talk Guardians and a listener email about why they didn’t draft an outfielder with their No. 1 overall pick in the 2024 MLB Draft.
Highlights:
The Browns have fired head coach Kevin Stefanski after a tumultuous week.
A fan asks about the team’s “smart, tough, accountable” mantra, which Terry says faded with the controversial arrival of quarterback Deshaun Watson.
Some fans defend Stefanski, arguing he was a scapegoat for a flawed roster built by the front office.
Terry suggests the firing was justified, as Stefanski had “run out of gas” and lost his way as a play-caller.
Unlike past firings, there was no public “internal discord” between the head coach and general manager.
Hiring a veteran coach like John Harbaugh is considered a fan fantasy, as he would likely seek a more stable situation.
Current defensive coordinator Jim Schwartz is a leading internal candidate, offering maturity and continuity for the top-tier defense.
External offensive coordinator candidates like Dan Pitcher and Todd Monken are being vetted, with Monken’s experience making him a more compelling option.
Seahawks DC Aden Durde is an intriguing but unproven candidate.
Stefanski is expected to land another job quickly and may be relieved to be free from the pressure of coaching the Browns.
While unattractive to established coaches, the Browns’ head coaching job is a coveted opportunity for coordinators seeking their first chance.
A stark statistic reveals the Browns have finished last in their division 16 times in the last 23 years, underscoring the team’s long-term struggles.
Running back Nick Chubb made a successful return from a catastrophic knee injury, playing in 15 games.
Darius Garland’s recent aggressive play and return to form have provided a significant boost for the Cavs.
The emergence of Craig Porter Jr. has earned him a key role in the Cavaliers’ rotation at the expense of veteran Lonzo Ball.
The Guardians took a second baseman instead of an outfielder with the No. 1 overall pick of the 2024 draft. A listener asks: Why?
The hosts pay tribute to the versatile talent and career of 100-year-old actor Dick Van Dyke.
Here’s the podcast for this week:
If you have a question or a topic you’d like to see included on the podcast, email it to sports@cleveland.com, and put “Terry’s Talkin’” in the subject line.
You can find previous podcasts below.
Also, a transcript of the podcast is below. As it is computer-generated, it may contain many spelling and grammar errors.
David Campbell: Hey, Happy New Year, everybody. It’s David Campbell. Terry Pluto. We’re back for the first Terry’s talking podcast of 2026. Terry, I know you’ve been battling some kind of bug. Sounds like you’re coming out of it. I’m glad to hear that.
Terry Pluto: Well, that’s a good thing because if not, we may not get. What did we pass, 100?
David Campbell: 200?
Terry Pluto: 200. We may not be going for 203, but fortunately, I think we’ll be all right. So.
David Campbell: So, man, we’re taping this on Wednesday, and part of it is because Monday and Tuesday have been so crazy with everything going on with the Browns. So just to recap real quick, Kevin Stefanski has been let go. The Browns are on a coaching search. There’s so much to go through. Terry, do you want to start with emails from fans? Do you want to start with a quick take on.
Terry Pluto: I mean, look, firing.
David Campbell: What do you want to do?
Terry Pluto: You are the prime host here.
David Campbell: All right?
Terry Pluto: I mean, even. I mean, even if I’m the, like, the head coach or whatever, you know, when it comes to this, you call the place.
David Campbell: All right, let’s do that. We’ll start with the Browns out. Maybe I’ll start with some of the fan emails. That’ll kind of get some good sentiment out there. Then we’ll talk a little Cavs later, a little bit of baseball, and then we’re going to. I think you said you want to talk about Dick Van Dyke toward the end of the. I want to hear what.
Terry Pluto: That’s all. He is a head coaching candidate at the age of 100.
David Campbell: That’s right. He’s got the experience. That’s what they’re looking for. All right, here’s the first one from Steven B. In Cleveland Heights. He says, hey, you guys, it dawned on me the other day that I haven’t heard the mantra of smart, tough, accountable in years. When did that leave the Browns building? Did they forget about it? It was everywhere during the 2020 search, which, coincidentally, was Stefanski’s best season. Those three values feel like Cleveland Browns football. Will Barry come back to those and use them to drive his construction of a new offensive line? I love the Browns, but when are we going to pull it all together? Thanks for that, Steven. Terry writes about smart, tough, accountable all the time, so probably talk about it more than the Browns do.
Terry Pluto: I think it went out the door when desean Watson came in the door.
David Campbell: That’s true. You’re right.
Terry Pluto: Hard. It’s in my book. Why can’t this team Find a quarterback. Among other things. It put the. It’s hard to say you’re tough, smart and accountable when you’re bringing in a guy with 20 plus civil suits and all that stuff on his resume. Well, you may not mean that. That doesn’t mean these guys all have to be on church windows and that, you know, but it just was. You go back and look, there’s certain things and the franchise does or whatever, it’s well beyond self inflicted wounds. It’s like self inflicted, you know, trips to the emergency ward. I mean it really is. And that’s what that was. And the ICU unit, I mean it really put the. I mean, look, they won eight games in the last two years and a lot of it goes back to that wound which put this thing on life support.
David Campbell: Well, and I was going to say, Terry, I mean, going back to the trade, like smart, tough, accountable. It’s easy to be smart and not make penalties when you’re a good player and you don’t need to cheat. You get off the line of scrimmage to make a block or to get past a blocker. It’s easy to be smart, tough and accountable when you’re talented. And the Browns are lacking in talent, a lot of positions because of all the draft picks they gave away in the trade, as you point out. So I think part of what Steven’s asking about smart, tough, accountable, you can’t be accountable when you’re getting beat on plays. And they knew they had a back.
Terry Pluto: Away from that because people like me would have brought that up and as I have and I would have beat it away if they were still talking about that. So that’s, that’s that one. What else we got there?
David Campbell: All right, we got. We have two emails from guys named Chuck. I guess you’d call it a chuckleheader, a double header. Oh, here we go. The first one’s from Chuck McCartney and Chuck is a Navon Lake. He says the best way for the Browns to improve their special teams and get a strong head coach is to bring John Harbaugh back to the Buckeye State as the next Browns coach. P.S. ozzie Newsom owes us one for beating us all these years. He can help make this happen. Sort of out how like Al Lerner did help Modell to move to Baltimore in 1995. So.
Terry Pluto: Okay, I have a story about the hiring.
David Campbell: All right, let’s hear it.
Terry Pluto: One of the. I have to remain nameless, but one of the people on the committee of four, I believe it was, that were interviewing candidates Back when Harbaugh was to take. And they decided on Harbaugh and one of the people said as they walked out, he goes, they hadn’t offered it to him yet, but they’re going to. He goes, do you know that we are getting ready to hire a special teams coach as a head coach and it’s rarely if ever done in this league and we could be made fun of for that. And that led to a discussion. They went back in and said, well, we still like him. And then it went into a discussion of this. When you’re a special teams coach, you have to be very adept at kind of offense and defense. In other words, you have to know a lot about the both sides of the ball because you’re covering, you’re trying to. You do all these things and then of course you’re in the no man’s land of kickers that most special teams coach know nothing about. And so they went ahead and did it. But it was an interesting discussion that this guy told me about. And he said, you know, at that point, I think Harbaugh was on year 14 or 15. He goes, I think we got it right. He said, but to act like we knew what we had and there were no doubts because remember, it was his first head coaching job. You don’t know. And he, and he was telling me too, just about when you go in these situations and when these guys don’t have a track record or you’re trying to project a young offensive coordinator to be a head coach or a special team, you just don’t know.
David Campbell: Well, yeah, and it’s not the formula, right? The formula go, you hire a defensive guy and he brings in an offensive coordinator or you hire an offensive guy and he brings in a defense that was, that was different. Especially at that time. For sure.
Terry Pluto: Correct.
David Campbell: Yeah, I know why they were kind of worried about the pullback from it, so. All right, here’s the second half of our Chuck emails. This one is from Check Chuck Laughlin from mentor. Chuck says, hey, Dave and Terry, I’m very frustrated by the Browns and their decision. So the guy who put together one of the least talented offensive rosters in the NFL stays. And the guy who couldn’t get the largely untalented and injury decimated offense to work gets canned. Haslam wanted to see Gabriel and Sanders evaluated during the season. What does anyone think is going to happen with two raw, lower round rookies when they’re your starters? Here’s your roster, Kevin. Let’s see what you can do with it. Two rookie quarterbacks Judkins, who misses several games as the featured back, a back of wide receivers that collectively are among the worst in the NFL. Offensive tackles basically off the street. Posick injured for several games and then Whipler goes down. Teller injured and his backup injured. This situation kind of reminds me when the smarter than anyone else front office ownership moved on from Baker Mayfield to the next shiny object, Deshaun Watson, because they knew Watson was going to be better. I. I will not be surprised if the Browns next head coach is no better than Stefanski. Anyone with any decent NFL credentials will not come to the Browns due to their pathetic history since 1999. Where head coaches go to end their coaching, their head coaching aspirations. They see that Stefanski was dealt a bad hand and then was canned when he wasn’t successful. And it was the front office that decided Dylan Gabriel had more potential than Sanders. Obviously they did because they drafted him in the third round. So we had one of the most dismal offenses with Gabriel. Before they turn it over to Sanders, we’ll see what happens. But I’m not optimistic. Thanks for that, Chuck. There’s a lot there.
Terry Pluto: Well, first of all, they could just take that, tape it, give it to Kevin when he goes in the interview with the Giants and everywhere else. They could just play it.
David Campbell: Yeah, here’s. Here’s your case for the new job. Yeah.
Terry Pluto: Yeah. I mean, seriously, they could look at that. You know, that wasn’t just based on one year of the firing. The year before, they were 3 and 14, they didn’t have rookie quarterbacks. You know, they had veterans and they led the league in passes attempted. And I have to admit, I hit bottom on Kevin this year when they played in Pittsburgh and he called 58 passing plays, 52 pass attempts, six sacks. With Dylan Gabriel in Pittsburgh, it was a 23 to nine game. Nine nothing at halftime. I really believe Kevin many ways lost his way as an offensive play caller. Nobody’s telling him, please leave the league. And passes attempted from the front office. Now, there are other points there about the offensive line and things that are very, very valid. I also believe, and I’ve written this and I will stand on this, there are times when you run out of gas on a job. I can tell you this. When I was at the Beacon Journal, I mean, I was doing fine after 22, 22 years. But when the plane dealer called me and a chance to come here, David, and you were one of the people that interviewed me back then, I was totally energized because I realized at that point The Beacon Journal had been sold three times, including it to a holding company. Lots of budget cuts. Things are going on that were totally out of my control. I was still trying to do a good job, but you just kind of felt, boy, this is. This is tough going here. And I got that sense from Kevin that it’s like, that could be there. His version be the Deshaun Watson trade and all that. This is tough going. So, you know, people get fired all the time in pro sports that aren’t necessarily bad at what they do, but sometimes they would be better somewhere else for their own mental health.
David Campbell: Yeah. And there’s a lot. We got one more email, but I did want to mention, like, it was interesting to me how emotionally engaged Stefanski was on the sidelines for that Bengals game. Like, when they. When they won at the end, he was pumping guys up as they came off and like, hell yeah. You know, and I thought that was like a little bit of a mini audition for.
Terry Pluto: Yeah. You kind of wonder where. Where was that guy?
David Campbell: Like, hey, you know what? I have a reputation as being, you know, steady, keep the ship moving in the right direction, but I’ve got a little fire in here. I’m going to show you in this last game when we won and Miles Garrett sets the sack record that I can do the. I can do the rah rah. Part two. And here’s. Here’s an example right here.
Terry Pluto: The other part two is, look, this is. I know I’m going to get fired. And the last thing you want to do when you know you’re going to hit the job market is go out there getting slammed 30 to nothing or whatever, which could have happened in a game like that.
David Campbell: Absolutely.
Terry Pluto: They weren’t interested. And he sees his guys are playing for him. And. And the Miles thing, it really helped, I think, because they had a cause, too, for that. It wasn’t just one, one for Kevin. It was get Miles to record. And I think that fired Kevin up, you know, and it came out after beating the Steelers a week before. So it was. It was a really good thing for both of them. It’s a good thing. Except the Browns, you know, their draft position dropped. But I hate just trying to play for draft positions. I really do. I just.
David Campbell: Yeah, it’s a. It’s a ridiculous argument. I mean, the general manager puts the roster together and then the coaches and players go out and they play the best they can. I mean, if. If things are working the right way, let’s say you can’t go out and play football. Halfway or you have to be into the game. And I thought, you’re right. You were right, Terry, when you wrote. I mean, I thought the Browns ended the season in the right way. And Kevin, to the very end, he. He held true to what was important to him.
Terry Pluto: Very, very classy.
David Campbell: Yeah, classy. It was exactly as you describe in your column.
Terry Pluto: Both of those guys are classy because ordinarily in football, not just in Cleveland, whatever, with the Watson, the losing thing, the finger pointing and whisper campaign in the media between the GM and the coaching staff would been fierce. And we’ve seen it here. You know, the classic thing is the GM says, well, I gave this guy some decent talent and he didn’t do anything with it. And the coaches say, he gave us crummy talent. How are we supposed to win? And. But you didn’t get that. They may have thought that both sides, but you didn’t get that. And that was to both of them. That’s why I think Haslam was upset about. Are you guys dysfunctional? Because that is normally one of the big definitions of dysfunctional. In fact, he even coined the term internal discord during one of the firings. I think was Hugh Jackson and somebody else. Well, they didn’t have that. They really didn’t. Now, you could say ownership’s dysfunctional because he can’t get anything right in terms of stuff, but because he was the one that greenlighted the Watson trade, you can say that was dysfunctional, dysfunctional thinking. But it wasn’t the normal dysfunction.
David Campbell: Yeah, I agree. All right, here’s our last email. This is from Norman Strongsville. He says, since I have no confidence in the Brook Park Aslams getting anything right ever.
Terry Pluto: There you go. Now that was right.
David Campbell: What’s the dumbest, dumb thing they could do to replace Stefanski? How about hiring a college coach with no pro football coaching experience and his coach should do or his entire life?
Terry Pluto: Yeah, well, that. That I think is pretty safe.
David Campbell: I think that’s not gonna happen.
Terry Pluto: How many games of Dion won this year? Like four at Colorado or three or four. The last time I checked, Dion wasn’t so. So successful once. His son and Travis Hunter and a couple of those other guys left. So.
David Campbell: All right. So, Terry, I want to ask you a question then. I want to kind of in your newsletter today, you did kind of a role playing thing where you’re like, if you’re Kevin Stefanski, if you’re John Harbaugh, if you’re Jim Schwartz. But first I want to ask you, we’ve been Hearing a lot this week about is, was Kevin Stefanski made the scapegoat and do you think that was true, that he was the scapegoat for what has gone wrong the last two seasons?
Terry Pluto: The guy gets fired. You could say, yeah. The other argument is, I mean, I, I was watching ESPN the other day, not that Rex, Rex Ryan is the ultimate judgment in these things, but he coached in the league and has some success for quite a while. And people were praising Stefanski to this guy. And Rick said, man, you know, it wins eight games in two years and he’s this great coach. He said, I don’t, basically saying, I don’t see it. He doesn’t say, we didn’t know where, yeah, Kevin could be an NFL coach and get another coaching job. But you know, listening to all that, I mean, the scapegoat thing is I, I believe he deserved to be fired for the reasons I talked about just to where he was after six years. I mean, you know, the only coaches who coach more games in Cleveland than Kevin Stefanski are Paul Brown and Blant and Blanton Collier. I think Kevin was at 101, Blanton at 112 and Paul Brown like 214. So it wasn’t as if they, you know, this is Jaczynski one year and gone. Remember that? 2013. And I just, I just felt a change is necessary. You could argue, some people would argue, get rid of Andrew Berry too. You know, how far do you want to go with the blame? What do you want to do next but to run this all back with those two guys. And by the way, no, you don’t keep the coach and then fire the GM and then go get a GM and match him with the coach and say, you got to keep this coach. We’ve seen that before. John Dorsey was married to Hugh Jackson.
David Campbell: And how did that work out?
Terry Pluto: Right, well, that was the internal discord. That’s right. Press conference that did Todd Haley, Hugh Jackson and I remember Jimmy’s up there looking really nervous about these guys. Well, we’ve, we’ve had some internal discord here. I wrote that down and like circle it. I go, maybe everybody else is going to forget that comment, but I’m not. And that’s when they put in. Then, then Dorsey came in and said, well, Haley and, and you were out. Greg Williams took over to bring some semblance of order, which he did. And Freddy Kitchens got to be play caller and which turned into Freddy Kitchens head coach, by the way. See what you think of this. Hiring a guy as a head coach just to keep him as coordinator is not a really good reason to make him the head coach.
David Campbell: It doesn’t work out very often.
Terry Pluto: Yeah, go ahead.
David Campbell: No, I was just going to say, I think that you’re totally right, Terry. I don’t think Kevin Stefanski was all that upset that this probably was the right time for him. I think he’s okay with it. Like, I’m sure.
Terry Pluto: I think he’s relieved.
David Campbell: Yeah, it’s a new opportunity and he’ll be moving on. But the Browns had to do something. They couldn’t pull a Bengals here and just be like, hey, our to do list is nothing this offseason in terms of making changes. So Kevin Stefanski is. Is out. And I think that’s the move they. They at least have to make. And I do think Andrew Berry maybe is on the clock even more than ever. Yeah, he’s got one year, I think.
Terry Pluto: One year with the coach and. And have another good draft. And, you know, the Bengals could come back. I think they were like 6 and 3 or something when Burrow played. I think that the way around that his.
David Campbell: His positive resume.
Terry Pluto: Yeah. Yeah. For this past year, I think. I think they were six and three. So, yes, you could. I’m not saying, by the way, that’s faulty thinking also, but at least you have that, so we’ll see. I really believe Andrew Berry, partly. The draft was part of it. I’m sure he presented a whole outline of. Okay, here’s how he would run the coaching search. Here’s how the roster is going to work. You know, here’s everything we’re going to do if you keep me, and then they will decide if we fire everybody, then I’m a little more reluctant to fire a GM than a coach because I just think that when you fire everybody, you’re with nothing. And the new GM comes in. If the new GM comes in and inherits the coach, it’s not his head coach. So he’s waiting for an opportunity probably to bring in his own guy. And if he comes in, he’s going to look around and go, they fired the last gm. He’s going to get that roster. And boy, oh, boy, the machine gun is going to come out and players are going to be flying all over the place. And so that’s. That’s my thought.
David Campbell: All right, maybe we can run through this, this mini role play you did, Terry. So. All right, so in a few sentences or whatever, if you’re Kevin Stefanski, how are you feeling about Things right now. I think we kind of got into some of this already, but I’m feeling.
Terry Pluto: I’m relieved. I won’t go into next year being the coach on the biggest hot seat. I won’t be going into next year wondering what the heck is going on with Watson. I can’t fix this guy. No matter what I do. I won’t be going into next year with people knowing that Watson also counts 81 million on this hour gap, I may add, they’ll try to do something about that, but. And finally, I said, if I were Kevin Stefanski, I’d love to coach the Ravens.
David Campbell: Oh, okay. That brings us to. If you’re John Harbaugh, what are you feeling if you’re recently fired John Harbaugh here?
Terry Pluto: Well, I mean, I could just sit here and answer the phone and decide where I want to go, and everybody, no matter what it takes, go get John Harbaugh. Well, what it would take would be a good quarterback, probably, because if you’re John Harbaugh, you’re 64, by the way. According to some stuff I found online, he was making 17 million.
David Campbell: Yeah.
Terry Pluto: So, you know, he’s been making this kind of money for a long time. So it isn’t like, well, Jimmy just piled the truck and pay him 50 million a year or something. I mean, Harbaugh, when you’re 64, and I could speak to this, when you start to get older and you realize, you know, time is against you, this, the moves you make, the things you do, you don’t have a lot of time to zigzag. You want to go to the right destination. And why in heaven’s name would John Harbaugh come to Cleveland?
David Campbell: No.
Terry Pluto: Yeah.
David Campbell: A lot of unsettled things for a guy who’s been as much of a winner as he has been. Definitely.
Terry Pluto: So, yeah, I mean, just to be honest, it’s not to do with Cleveland. He, by the way, he’s from Ohio. That. That’s not it. It’s like. But you’re picking now a lot of these.
David Campbell: This is his last chance, probably.
Terry Pluto: This is. Yeah, this is your last shot. So you’re going like, you know, I go to New York, and I got to deal with New York, which is another animal. But you, you know, Jackson dart, a lot of people like him as a quarterback. There’s something there. You know, Cam Ward, I mean, he didn’t show me much, but maybe some people, like. Maybe Harbaugh likes that. And there’s a lot of other things, and it’s very possible that Somebody else who hasn’t fired their coach yet could be working superstition, you know, behind the scenes with Harbaugh’s agent and realize that, you know, maybe if we could get John, we’ll fire our coach.
David Campbell: All right, finally, if you’re Jim Schwartz, how you feeling?
Terry Pluto: Well, I want this job. I’m 59. I don’t think anybody else wants to talk to me about being a head coach, assuming my health is good. The big assumption, because he missed a couple years before coming to Cleveland with thyroid problems, which caused vision problems. For two years, he was a. Like a special consultant to Vrabel, remember, in Tennessee. Now, assuming that it’s cleaned up again, it’s a little bit like Harbaugh. I’m 59 times against me. I would go in and I would. I know people would come up to me and say, all right, you were. Your record in Detroit was 29 of 52. What do I care about? Why would I even talk to you? I say two things. I took over a team with 0 and 16. I went 2 and 14, 6 and 12, 10 and 6, 4 and 12, and then 7 and 9. I was fired after 7 and 9. Of course, what I would probably try to run away from, if that was his, is that I lost six of my last seven that year. Nonetheless, I would say the last time I was a head coach was 2013. I have learned a few things in 12 years since, and I’ve grown up some. I’m more mature then because he was kind of known as really fiery back then, and I could. Your defense stays in place. I know how the Browns work. I know the Browns can make an impact with things that I can do. I have a different personality than Kevin. It’s not the knock. Kevin’s personality. And I am more than willing to work with a really strong offensive coordinator. I think you could say all of those things. Interesting how Stefanski went to bat for Schwartz towards the end of one of the press conferences. Oh, yes, I deserve Jim. Jim deserves another chance. And then he said this. Very interesting because, you know, Jim and I, our offices are right by each other, quote, unquote. We are cut from the same cloth.
David Campbell: Yeah. And Schwartz, I mean, if you haven’t read it yet, check out Ashley Bastock’s feature on Jim Schwartz. She had a one on one sit down with him. But a lot of what they delved into when Ashley was talking to him was how do you maintain the standard of being one of the best defenses in the league when the rest. When the team is failing and losing and isn’t in playoff contention. How do you maintain the standard? And she got really in depth with Jim Schwartz on how that happens. And if you want to learn more about what kind of head coach he might be for the Browns. And again, Terry, you and I are. We’re watching the same press conference, and you were at the press conference the other day than everybody else. So we don’t have any inside information on whether he’ll get the job or not. But it was interesting look at kind of who Jim Schwartz is. So check that out if you haven’t already.
Terry Pluto: And you know, one of the things Schwartz did this year, we talked about the offensive line of different guys being hurt in and out. Well, he kind of had his version of that in the secondary. He kept having a lot. And that’s a little bit like your offensive line, you know, back there you could have up. And I mean, they were. Guys are making tackles in the last couple weeks. Who are. Who’s this guy Webb and who are these guys? And you know, they were. They were making some plays. Yeah, they got beat some, but they made some plays, too. And I mean, the truth is. Why did they win the last two games? Because the defense kick butt.
David Campbell: Yep.
Terry Pluto: That’s it.
David Campbell: Period, paragraph. So.
Terry Pluto: Yeah.
David Campbell: All right. Do you want to let we move forward and get into what’s.
Terry Pluto: Sure.
David Campbell: Who they’re talking to and stuff. All right. So a lot of people might not know Mary Kay Cabot, who’s been covering the Browns.
Terry Pluto: Yeah.
David Campbell: Through all of this stuff we’ve been talking about these names and stuff don’t just pop out of thin air like she’s working the phones relentlessly to try and get news to fans. But. So here’s what we know from what Mary Kay has been reporting. They’ve requested interviews with Browns Browns Bengals offensive coordinator Dan Pitcher.
Terry Pluto: Let’s also go one at a time. All right. I saw Dan Pitcher and I said, why? I don’t mean that he’s offensive coordinator where the head coach calls the place.
David Campbell: That’s a great point.
Terry Pluto: Yeah. And I looked him up. I mean, he may be fine. I don’t know. 2019, he was an assistant quarterback co or assistant offensive assistant, then a quarterback coach, and then in 24 became the OC at for the Bengals. Kind of thin resume to me. All right.
David Campbell: Ravens offensive coordinator Todd Monkin, who has been all over the NFL college, was the offensive coordinator when Georgia was winning those national championships a few years ago.
Terry Pluto: I loved his press conferences when he was in Cleveland. He was. He was. No nonsense. He was, you know, I mean, some of the times he would. I mean, they. Because they, you know, he was stuck with. I think he thought he was going to get to call place with Freddie, but he didn’t. And so he left. He was a head coach at Southern Miss. And then came in and I remember sometimes the questions would come up and, you know, Freddie had done something crazy in the game and he go, well, I get. That’s just the way we planned it, I guess.
David Campbell: And if you. If I could sum up Todd Monkin in one word, like, if you’ve. And you talk about his press conferences, he. He’s been, like I said, he’s been everywhere. But his thing is, like, I’m paid to put points on the board, right. If I don’t find a way to get points on the board, I’m going to get fired.
Terry Pluto: Yeah. He is the ultimate, some people would say cynical. I would say he is the ultimate realist of how the pros in the college game works. That’s why last year when Todd was interviewed and the. And the Ravens were playing this before they played James, Seamus getting ready to start the game, and they asked him about him and he says something like, well, you know, something like, you know, James has got a unique personality, he said, but I worked with that guy in Tampa. He is a gym rat. He and I watch film together, all that. The man loves the game. And like, oh. Because there was no reason to do that. And that kind of changed. I. I just, again, I would. I would pay attention to stuff like Monkin says, especially that way because he, you know, he doesn’t exactly like to hand out a lot of praise. I thought Monk. And now this year, they had some problems with their office, but I thought Monkin did a pretty good job with Lamar in Baltimore. Is he head coaching material? I don’t know.
David Campbell: Well, I mean, that’s the thing. It’s like you’ve got brilliant X’s and O’s, guys, but there’s so much more to it in terms of leading a team and holding players accountable. And like, there’s some people who are brilliant. I’m not saying this about Todd Monk, and I think he could be a good head coach, but you’ve got to come through with both, like, the football expertise and the football roster, managerial skills, where you’re keeping the team in line and making sure you’re setting the tone and all that. So I don’t know. That’s the big question is the second part with him. I would imagine so.
Terry Pluto: Of course, if you hire, if you make. I would think Monk and Schwartz would do just fine together. And you might do. You know, Schwartz becomes your head coach, and he’s the O.C. i don’t know. Just the thought. Yeah, yeah. At least. At least I go, look, he’s got a track record. He’s called plays. He’d been a head coach in college. Love to see him with Deshaun Watson. That would be fun.
David Campbell: All right, moving on. I am really intrigued by this guy. Okay. Adam Dirty.
Terry Pluto: All right.
David Campbell: He’s the defensive coordinator for the Seahawks, and he is English and played in NFL Europe back when I think, boy, it’s probably been a while now, but I think that The Seahawks, the McDonald’s Seahawks are, to me, probably one of the three smartest. They’re analytically driven, but they’re also. You can see what they do.
Terry Pluto: Yeah.
David Campbell: You can see the thought behind what they do when you watch them play. And I think that Dirty is being around that. He’s. He’s got a great personality. I think he’s great on the field, working with the players. I think he’s a really intriguing candidate and someone I’m watching AD and Dirty. It’s A Aden and D U R D E is the name.
Terry Pluto: So, okay, quick thing on him, like you said, a lot of experience in Europe and that in 2020 he became the linebacker. He had some lesser jobs in the NFL, but in 20 was a linebacker coach with Atlanta. Then 21 through 23. D line coach with Dallas, 24 and 25, defensive coordinator with Seattle. But he doesn’t call place. You know, McDonald’s, who’s the Baltimore’s former defensive coordinator, he calls place. And so that’s always hard to know. Probably interesting guy to talk to. The problem is you got John Harbaugh, and the only other guy Fulton around has got some experience, you know, and some success is Mike McCarthy, who doesn’t do a lot for me. You just. There’s just not a lot of guys out there that with all these openings that you say, well, we got to hire that guy.
David Campbell: Yeah. And Dirty might be one of these guys where this is his interview round, and maybe he doesn’t get the job this time, but maybe the next time he does. But I’m just interested in his background and being part of that Seahawks operation. I think that some good.
Terry Pluto: Some good resume, we could talk to him. By the way, Clint Kubiak, who so far is not interviewing with the Browns, he’s got five different interviews lined up. You would think he’d been a Head coach before he’s out of the Kubiak coaching tree. And. And he’s, you know, I don’t know really what. What. What. What to say about that other than, you know, he’s. He’s been around. I like. I generally like the Kubiak system, which is a little bit like what Kevin ran, at least before Watson and after Watson. I don’t know what they ran. I’m ser. I’m serious. I mean, it changed all the time. And so. All right, there you are.
David Campbell: There’s two more.
Terry Pluto: Yeah.
David Campbell: You want to go internally next, and then we’ll be done? I think so. Mary Kay broke this morning that Jim Schwartz will be interviewed, and we talked about Jim Schwartz. Tommy Reese, the offensive coordinator for the Browns. Terry, any thoughts on him not ready.
Terry Pluto: To be a head coach?
David Campbell: Maybe another again, interviews this time?
Terry Pluto: Yeah.
David Campbell: Get to know teams, and maybe somebody comes back to me and if they’re.
Terry Pluto: Thinking about Schwartz and, you know, do we really pair him with Tommy and do that? So is you’re changing really just changing Kevin and just kind of keeping everything else the same? I don’t know. Courtesy. You know, agents oftentimes will ask. I’m not saying Carrie’s case with Tommy Reese, but sometimes there’ll be somebody odd that will be interviewed, and it’ll be agents asking you to interview them as a favor for something else. And that agent will then, you know, help you do a favor for the agent. He has a favor for you. All right, I saw something. This is on a thing called the NFL nerd. It was A. On X. All right, since 2002, the Browns have finished in first place. How many times in the AFC North?
David Campbell: Zero.
Terry Pluto: That’s correct. It’s not a trick question. All right, all right. Second, how many times this is in. Since this update? 23 years.
David Campbell: Three.
Terry Pluto: Oh, did you. Did you read the NFL nerd?
David Campbell: No, I’m just guessing. I’m trying to think of playoff appearance.
Terry Pluto: Are you might have been like, are you the NFL Nerd?
David Campbell: That’s my side game.
Terry Pluto: He’s not right. The answer is three. Third, so that means we have 21 years yet left to cover.
David Campbell: All right, I’m gonna say, like, 13.
Terry Pluto: Five.
David Campbell: Oh, okay. Wow. So that leaves 16.
Terry Pluto: That’s correct.
David Campbell: Last place.
Terry Pluto: Oof.
David Campbell: All right.
Terry Pluto: Including this year.
David Campbell: So 035. 16. First. Second. Third. Fourth. Since 2002.
Terry Pluto: I mean, the second year, the seconds were I. 23. The Flacco year. 07, Derek Anderson, and then this one. 02, the year they made the playoffs with Butch Davis. They Spilled their guts all over the place. Remember that? Everybody’s always spilling their guts. It was like a bunch of filet fish. I never did really know what. Butch had a lot of guts filling, so. All right, well, that’s from the NFL nerd. Who? Your sidelight. You’ve been exposed.
David Campbell: That’s right.
Terry Pluto: Mike McCarthy. Any thoughts? You just. You didn’t.
David Campbell: Yeah, I’m not. If I’m a fan, I’m not excited. I don’t know.
Terry Pluto: Okay, me either. That’s it for me. Yeah.
David Campbell: I don’t think we missed anybody. But again, this will be breaking all the time. Mary Kay is. Is working the phones and trying to.
Terry Pluto: Oh, yeah, they’re just getting. Especially if they’re going to be going into the second line of guys. There’ll be all kinds of interviews in that.
David Campbell: Yeah, do. Is the Browns job attractive? Terry in. On a scale of 1 to 10, what would you say the attractiveness of this job?
Terry Pluto: I mean, if you’re John Harbaugh, the answer is no. If you’re Jim. Jim Swartz, the answer is yes. If you’re these other guys that we just talked about. Absolutely. Because it’s a job. I mean, anytime, you know, there are 32 teams, whether seven openings right now, I think there are. And it’s hard to get one of these. That’s why sometimes you’ll see a pretty good coach in any sport take a job just because it’s limited. I remember when Mike Hargrove was baseball and there’s only 30 teams, then was fired by the Tribe back in. I think it was 99. And he right away jumped in and took the Baltimore job, which was a bad job at that point. I think they had lost 100 games or something. And I talked to Mike about that, in fact, because I called you. Oh, come on. Because I had a pretty good relationship. Come over to House. And he lived in Richfield at the time, and he said, you know, you could sit out here and think they’re going to hire you because you have a good record, but you don’t know that. And he said, I want to still manage. And I came. You know, you talk yourself into it. I came up through the Cleveland system, you know, lost 100 games, all that stuff, and rebuild it, build it up. I. I know what it takes. But the thing you just said is these things don’t come open very often and kind of don’t overestimate yourself.
David Campbell: Well, yeah, it’s kind of what they told the Haslams when Jimmy and D. Haslam were going to buy the Browns. They said, if you can buy the Cleveland Browns, buy it. There’s only 32 of these. Browns are a very special one, so don’t let it slip by.
Terry Pluto: So, yeah, policy sale sales pitch too. Al Werner, when Werner was getting mad about how high the bidding was going, which now sounds like nothing for the expansion Browns, I think, you know, 530 million is what they sold for. And he said, Al, you don’t get it. He said, this is like a Picasso or a Rembrandt comes on the market. They’re not making any more of them. And you can’t make them make more you. And I can’t decide, you know, we’ll just go start our own NFL franchise somewhere. You have to get one of these from the league. So the moment you pay for it, he says within about five to 10 years, you’re more than doubling your money.
David Campbell: And they have and they have and then some.
Terry Pluto: So yeah, yeah, actually they almost. They sold it for 1 billion. Ten years later, I believe it was. And whenever, whenever Randy Snows more than that, it was 13 years later, they sold it for exactly a billion and he had paid 530 million. And the interesting thing, I wrote about this in my book Brown’s Blues, the structure of the sale to Jimmy Haslam, it was like 650 million up front and then paid out over a period of time. So it wasn’t even a full one billion dollar cash. Right then and there. Joe Banner negotiated all that they had to give right there. He should have got more than one year to run the team just for that deal he cut to for Haslam to get that franchise. Wow. All right.
David Campbell: Great background there. Okay, so that’s all the coaching stuff. Is there anything else you want to mention here? That was a lot.
Terry Pluto: No, I did look up something for that. I was just kind of curious because I lost track. How did Nick Chubb do this year? And the answer is not bad. I remember this is the Nick job that we, that I saw. Which is the second best Browns running back ever is probably gone. But he played in 15 of the 17 games. He rushed for 501 yards, 4.1 yards per carry. He had rib injuries and a couple other small things. Ran for three touchdowns. Much better than the year before with Cleveland. He only averaged 3.3 yards per carry. Then, you know, he’s sort of a short yard runner, yardage runner guy. He’s good blocking and pass protection. But it’s a shame. I mean he’s become this role playing block, but blocker and back. But to his credit, man’s on the field still. He had that knee thing that was like just a complete disaster because he had ACL and MCL surgery within three months of each other as they were trying to rebuild the whole thing.
David Campbell: Well, and we’ve seen the videos of Nick Chubb in the weight room down at his high school in Georgia. And like, he just puts in the work that whatever it takes to get back on the field, he’s done it over and over. And even back at Georgia, he had the rehab. So what an incredible work ethic. And he’s going to be in the Browns ring of Honor someday, right?
Terry Pluto: Oh, absolutely. No doubt.
David Campbell: So that’ll happen soon after he retires, so that’ll be something for fans to look forward to. So. All right, let’s take a break here, Terry. When we come back, we’ll get into the Cavaliers and I want to know what you think about the resurgence of Darius Garland. So we’ll get into that and more when we return. On Terry’s Talking. Okay, we’re back on Terry’s Talking. I did want to mention, Terry, it is a new year, but you have at least one more appearance coming up for your book, your latest book, why can’t this Team Just Find a Quarterback? And other thoughts on life in Brownstown. I think we’re looking at Thursday, January 29th at 6:30 out in Strongsville, right?
Terry Pluto: Yeah, yeah. They’re opening a brand new Barnes and Noble in Strongsville and that week is opening week. And so I’m gonna be there giving a talk and signing books at 6:30 at the brand new Barnes and Noble, Strongsville. I went to the brand new Barnes and Noble in North Canton during. No, I’m sorry, in Boardman during the. Actually, two new. They’re opening new stars, both Boardman and North Canton. And they are both really nice stores. And so that’s. Those are things to keep in mind.
David Campbell: It seems like people are craving a place to go and look at books and hang out.
Terry Pluto: Yes.
David Campbell: I’m starting to read about like more and more bookstores opening up.
Terry Pluto: Yep.
David Campbell: Because people want a communal place where they can hang and.
Terry Pluto: And more of the. The cafe style. Yeah, cafe style. Because you know, the pandemic just crushed all these independent coffee shops and everything else that where people used to go to hang out. I mean then you got you. You terrified the population long after kind of this thing has settled down to, you know, don’t sit within five miles of someone. And so people are longing to get out. And I’m Going to have a couple other appearances coming up, so. But that’s. That’s the one that’s written down right now.
David Campbell: All right. And that’s at 16700 Royalton Road in Strongsville. Again, Thursday, January 29th at 6:30 at the Barnes and Noble. So. All right. Cavaliers are 21 and 17. They’re. I think they’re up to the number six seed in the east as of right now. And they are coming off a 120 to 116 Law win over the. I was looking at the Pacers record and it almost made me say lost. Pacers are now 6 and 31.
Terry Pluto: How about that?
David Campbell: Cavs beat them last night, 120 to 160. I have never seen a team make the NBA Finals and then go this much in the other direction in one season. It’s been crazy.
Terry Pluto: They have a great hall of Fame coach, too. It’s just Rick Carlisle just gone crazy for them. And. Well, you mentioned Garland, and he had 29 last night. And what I really liked about Garland, his foot must be feeling better. He’s going into the lane more. He’s making floaters, setting up other guys for shots. He’s not just taking, you know, really long three pointers. He’s getting hit more when he drives to the rim. I don’t want him taking total pounding because he’s so slight, but he just looked to be bolder. Now, maybe some of it was because Donovan Mitchell was not playing, but nonetheless, that was some of the best of Darius Garland I’ve seen all year. And he took the team on his back and I think he had 13 or something in the fourth quarter and also set up other guys. Here’s the other.
David Campbell: I’m trying to think how many three pointers he even took last night, Terry, because. And I have to go look, because it didn’t seem like many and he was one of four. Yeah, that was all he did last night, three points. So you’re right, he was going inside.
Terry Pluto: The arc and they, you know, they do had. I think the guy’s name is Huff, the big, big, big center for Indiana. And he blocked shots, so it wasn’t as if they they lacked a center. But he went in there anyway. Sam Merrill came back. I was a little. This stat surprised me. Sam Merrill, 14 and 6 When he.
David Campbell: Starts, the Cavs are 14 and 6 with him playing.
Terry Pluto: Yeah. Starting.
David Campbell: Yeah.
Terry Pluto: And, you know, you could see how he plays off of the other guys, you know, with finding his openings for his three pointers. But he’s Also kind of scrappy. He’s always in the middle of drawing a charge or it’s part of the reason he keeps hurting his wrist and getting hurt. But he does try to defend and as I say, get in the way of things and get in the way in a good, good thing on defense. So that those were. That was encouraging to me. I know Indiana’s not very good at all, but they won it without Donovan, and I know that. I think Chris Fedora was writing this. Fourth quarter rallies are not a great sign because it means you’re behind all the time. But the flip side is not having a fourth quarter rally. Then you’re the Indiana Pacers. Yeah.
David Campbell: I was listening to our Wine and Gold Talk podcast and Fedor was mentioning that I think the Cavs led for nine minutes and he. And he said. And he was pointing out six of those are in the fourth quarter.
Terry Pluto: Yeah.
David Campbell: So, yeah, that’s.
Terry Pluto: They were down early in the fourth quarter by 11, by the way. Fanduel, I don’t know if you were. I was trying to watch it. It went off the air like, what, four minutes to go in a game. They went to the Jimmy Hamlin Golf Show.
David Campbell: Okay.
Terry Pluto: Just in Akron. That’s what happened on DirecTV. I can’t speak elsewhere. What happened. But that’s what happened. All right. But they had the big thing is that technical difficulties all over the place. I bet they had them.
David Campbell: So I wanted to ask you about Lonzo Ball.
Terry Pluto: Yeah.
David Campbell: Because before the season, we were talking, it’s like, all right, this. He can give them some good defensive minutes and he’s got some size and some length, and he can solve some of the issues the Cavs had last year in the playoffs, especially did not play last night and hasn’t. Has seen kind of his role diminish. What are you seeing about what’s going on between Lonzo Ball, the rotation? Are they saving him? Is he just not. Not what they need right now? The def. What are you seeing in terms of where he’s at?
Terry Pluto: Kenny Atkinson obviously is having some reservations about Lonzo Ball. First of all, you have the rise of Craig Porter Jr. And that has been, you know, one thing. Porter kind of was doing a lot of the things Ball would do, only better. You know, the Guy’s amazing. He’s 6 foot 2. He’s defense, he’s rebounding, assist, you know, scoring a little bit, that kind of thing. I mean, I was looking at ball shooting is so bad. It’s 30% from the field, 26 on threes. He’s playing 22 minutes a game. He’s only taken 20 free throws. I mean, go to the rim, get fouled. I mean, now there’s 22 minutes. He’s averaging four rebounds and four and a half assists. That’s not bad. But it. Now, is the knee a problem again with him? You don’t know that because they won’t say. But you know, his knee is a disaster zone, all the different surgeries he’s had on it. But I was. When I saw he didn’t get off the bench and he was basically a healthy scratch in that game where Mitchell doesn’t play. And also Tyson was playing but not playing well. He had the. Brad Doherty kept saying he had the flu and looked basically kind of turning green and everything else. And he was not his usual energetic self and making shots, but they went with him anyway. So ball right now, I think has to win the coach’s confidence back. And I know Kenny was a very big proponent of adding Lonzo Ball. So we’ll see how that plays out.
David Campbell: Yeah. To be fair, Terry, like it is January, early January, and there might be a scenario in the playoffs where The Cavs need 10 or 15 minutes out of Lonzo Ball at a key stretch.
Terry Pluto: For whatever or maybe whatever he’s going to bring.
David Campbell: So, like change quickly. Yes. Or. Or they might trade him at the deadline and. And let him out of his. I don’t know, like it could go any which way at this point, but there’s no doubt, like Craig Porter Jr. And you. I think you were one of the first people hear about this last summer, Terry. They wanted him to work harder, get in better shape and be more impactful. And last night I think he had. I think he had about 12 or 15 family members and friends there.
Terry Pluto: Yeah, please, like the maniac for that. I mean, one of the discussions just one time after practice, Kenny and I were just having a grad, just, you know, with some other writers around and that. And it was just kind of a casual thing. And I mentioned to Kenny how Wayne Emery used to say, you know, sometimes we’re always worried about making this guy be a point guard or a shooting guard. He said some guys are just good guards, just have them play and Porter doesn’t. He’s like too short, supposedly for a shooting guard. And his ball handling skills are fine, but he doesn’t really see the game like a classic point guard. He just plays. He runs around getting rebounds and he’s walking shots and he goes to the rim and he’s on the floor and kind of just wind him up and put him out there. And that’s what they’ve gone to. Because sometimes a coach has to say, all right, I’ve got to get out of my idea of what the player looks like and take what the player does. And on top of that, basically, he does almost everything Darius Garland doesn’t do. And Garland does some things that Porter can’t do offensively, but the other stuff, you know, you could just put him on. He’ll take. You tell a guy, tell Porter, take him full court. He doesn’t care who it is. He will. Naquin’s got some of that in him too. You know, he’s in the middle of everything with trying to get loose balls and he’ll guard some seven footer. He’ll do what the other day I forgot who he was. I think it was on Neesmith. He just took him full court, you know, coming up there and I’m like, good, go after this guy. You know, play some of the old Pacer ball that they did on everybody. So I’m encouraged by those two young players there and I want to see how Kenny continues to. To use them. And if ball isn’t doing it right now, well, then, you know, he can.
David Campbell: Sit 28 minutes for Craig Porter Jr. Last night. Nine rebounds, nine assists, eight points.
Terry Pluto: How about. He was like a refund and assist away and two in a basket from a triple double.
David Campbell: All right. Anything else on the Cavs, Terry, you want to get into?
Terry Pluto: I’m just. I mean, they’re starting to win some games. They’re still at times clunky in that, but what are they? 24 games over.
David Campbell: 500, I think 21 and 17. Yeah.
Terry Pluto: Yeah. All right, so you’re looking at almost halfway. You’re about on a pace to win 45, which is not real great, but it’s not like you’re. I’m not even saying Indiana, but it’s not like you’re going to win like 30.
David Campbell: Well, you have to think, if you’re a Cavs fan, you have to think and hope that their best basketball is ahead of them. And also we did get an update on Max Strusch yesterday. He’s going to be out until probably after. Until or after the All Star.
Terry Pluto: That didn’t sound great to me.
David Campbell: So he’s going to have another meeting with the medical staff within three, four weeks. Yeah. And have his surgically repaired foot looked at.
Terry Pluto: And.
David Campbell: But it looks like he’s going to need more time. Won’t be back anytime before the All.
Terry Pluto: And, you know, they’re starting to get better defense again because they’re using their two big guys together again. And they. And they don’t like that. Some fans don’t like to hear that and whatever. But those guys, if you’re playing Darius Garland out front, you better have some guys around the rim to defend because Darius cannot defend. Even before his foot injury, he was not very good. And after, it’s just. It’s not good at all. That’s why he needs to go to the rim. He needs to create. He needs to really make his big edge. Has to be on offense.
David Campbell: All right, so the Cavs have a couple of back to backs coming up here. They’re playing Thursday at Minnesota, and then Saturday they’re home against Minnesota. Monday they have the Utah Jazz. Yeah.
Terry Pluto: Is it me? Are you annoyed by the Ant Man Santa commercials for Sprite or whoever it is? They’re Minnesota guy.
David Campbell: Why do they annoy you?
Terry Pluto: They just annoy me. And it’s like he’s the Ant man and he’s throwing bottles of Sprite down the chimney on Christmas.
David Campbell: Well, Christmas is gone, so I’m guessing that commercial will be gone.
Terry Pluto: Some other stupid commercial with him, I don’t know.
David Campbell: Long national nightmare may be over with.
Terry Pluto: The Ant Man. Yeah, the Ant man commercials. Now, that kid’s fun to watch. Bo, was I wrong on him when he came out of Georgia, and I think he went first or second in the draft. I forgot which, but either one. And I’m like, I don’t know. I just don’t see it on this kid. Well, there’s a lot of things I don’t see. And that was yet another.
David Campbell: All right, then after Thursday, Saturday at Minnesota home. Minnesota. The Cavs have Utah on Monday, and then they’re doing a back to back at Philly next week, Wednesday and Friday. I like when the NBA does this. Two games in one place over three nights.
Terry Pluto: Yeah.
David Campbell: It really saves wear and tear.
Terry Pluto: Emulates the playoffs.
David Campbell: Yeah. Yeah. And they do. The Cavs have done this in Miami the last couple of years. Now they’re doing this one in Philly. I think when east plays East, I think they should try and do that.
Terry Pluto: I think, Isn’t it? Tyrese Maxey is the only guy with more guard with more block shots than Craig Porter. And he’s played like 400 more minutes or some crazy stat like that. It’s like, I think Chris Fedor had that. It’s like, I know Maxey’s the only guard with more blocks than Porter, but I forgot how more minutes he’s played, but it’s a staggering amount.
David Campbell: All right, let’s get to the Guardians. Terry, I want to get your take on this. It was an interesting email from Neil in Jamestown, New York about the Guardians. He says, hey, Terry, here is a point of great annoyance to me. When the Guardians had the first Pick in the 2024 draft and were loaded with middle infielders, they took a second baseman, Travis Bazzana.
Terry Pluto: Yes, they did.
David Campbell: Now you are suggesting, and apparently the team is considering converting him to the outfield. How hard is it to pick an outfielder when an outfielder is what you need? And I’m not buying the argument that middle infielders are the easiest to convert as the reason they are. But why not pick so you don’t have to convert at all?
Terry Pluto: Well, they don’t listen. They’d have taken Charlie Condon, who’s really struggled because I thought I wanted a power hitting outfielder. So I would have drafted him out of Georgia. He had some minor injuries. He’s really off to a slow start. I did not get a single email from any fan said draft Nick Kurtz, the first baseman from Wake Forest, who of course turned out to be the star slugger, the other infielder that the Guardians are looking at a lot. And I didn’t particularly like him a whole lot because the main reason being he had a history of a lot of hamstring injuries. That always bothers me. So J.J. weatherholt, Cardinals took him and this kid’s hit and I think he’s primarily a second baseman. You would have been the same thing. But you know, a good player is a good player and I think he’s on his way to Triple A and he could be in the majors next year. You know, it’s time for Bazano to show something really. And now he. And then, you know, he ended up getting the dreaded oblique last year. The other reason I mentioned him in the outfield, I look at him at second base and I see average at best defensively. So I could put Rocchio there and I got way. I mean I’ve got close to Andres Jimenez defense with that and you know that assumes areas or somebody else ends up playing short.
David Campbell: But so, but we’ve seen this through based. I’m going back to Neil’s question here, but playing second and short in the major leagues is probably the hardest job, right? Catcher. Yeah, but we’ve seen through the years like how many guys like Jackie Robinson started as a second base, ended up playing first and there’s a Lot of players where if you learn the hard thing, when you’re coming up playing second or short, if they move you to first or move you. If you can hit, you can play, right? But maybe if they move you to first or the outfield, it’s easier to learn. It’s easier to do that than drafting some outfielder who can’t hit and, you know, who bust. And it’s just. It just seems like it’s an easier transition. I know what Neil is saying, like, why not draft an outfielder? But if you think the best hitter is a second baseman and maybe in three, five years he plays first or the outfield or second, like, it’s fine.
Terry Pluto: Yeah.
David Campbell: You can’t go the other way with it. You cannot go the other way with it.
Terry Pluto: Yeah, you just gotta hit. I mean, it gets right down to it.
David Campbell: That would solve everything.
Terry Pluto: Go hit. Go hit. 300. Go hit. 20 homers. You know, something like that. Now, the reason I mentioned the thing for him in the outfield is one, I’ve seen him play a couple times live and at second base. It’s just, okay, that’s as far as I can go. Secondly, they have no offense other than Quan. I mean, we’ve got this guy, maybe Dale Otter this. They have no out theaters. So that’s the other thing. Just give him a glove and let him go out there. He can. He can learn to do it. You know, examples. By the way, Larry Dobie was the second baseman. I mean, that’s another great example. And in 1948, before that, 47, he came in, he was a second baseman. I wrote a long story about this. And Bill Veck brings them in the middle of that season. And then Lou Boudreaux didn’t know he was coming, and he asked Larry Dovey, well, what do you play? They bring him in for the Newark Bears. And Doby says, well, I play second. I played a little short. And Boudreaux’s like, well, I play short. And Joe Gordon was an all star second baseman. So they handed him a first baseman. It wasn’t terrible that year, but what they did for the next year is they put him in the outfit. And they brought in Tris speaker, hall of Fame center fielder, who was kind of a consultant for the Tribe back then. And speaker and Dobie became very close friends. Speaker supposedly had these kind of racist attitudes, being from Texas or whatever. Hal Levowitz, new Trispeaker and always denied that. And he was around when he said, you should have seen him teach Larry Doby to play center Field. And in his hall of Fame speech, Doby thanked speaker for really saving his career and creating a new one. In other words, the guy’s a good outfitter. And, you know, but you know why it worked? Because Lori Doby hit. I mean, you get right down to it. I mean, if they’d gone out there and he’s this fine center fielder, but he’s hitting.230 with six homers, who cares? So he hit and, you know, Rick Manning was signed as a shortstop. He became an elite center fielder.
David Campbell: Jose Ramirez didn’t become an outfielder, but he moved from second.
Terry Pluto: I played some outfield. Jose’s yelling from Bondi. He’s on the Dominican Republic. I play left field. He was 2016. Look it up. I played it all. That guy had to see. He had to go see. Frank Kona brought him in there, having one of the discussions on, like, what do you want from this year? And he said, and now he’s established. He’s a good player. He’s all star ready. He goes, I want to play one position because he had played third, he had played short, he had played second, he had played left field. I think he played some right field. And so they picked third for him. But so. But in the end, you know why Jose is great? He hits.
David Campbell: Yeah. All right. So to bring this to point, if you can play second or short, you can play any position in baseball. And that is why there’s a premium on finding those guys, because they can. You can’t go the other way with it. That’s kind of where we’re at with Neil’s question.
Terry Pluto: Yeah, it’s pretty hard to take it. The one guy that they brought in from the outfield in college to play second base was Jason Kipnis.
David Campbell: Oh, that’s right.
Terry Pluto: Yeah. And they put him at second base. And at that point, I think they had a bunch of good offleters. It was draft. He was drafted a long time ago. They tried it with another guy. And I’m bringing this up because it reached the point is it didn’t matter what position he played was Trevor Crowe. They tried to turn him into an infielder, but it didn’t matter because he didn’t hit. He was an outfitter by trade. So the bottom line, whereas Kipnis hit. And so that’s. That’s where they go with it. But really, we sit here right now. So you’ve got Quan and left, assuming they don’t trade them. I have not heard anything that they are, but who knows? And you’ve Got, I guess, the water and center Valera in. Right. I don’t know what else you.
David Campbell: Well, I think. And you’ve been writing about this, especially in your newsletter today, Terry, we’re going to see a trade here soon, right? There’s going to be a trade for pitching. Yeah, they’re going to move some pitching and bring in some kind of an outfielder.
Terry Pluto: Yeah, they have to. They have to do something like that. Because you go back and I know Jose wants another veteran bat behind him. And that’s, by the way, Jose, like, you know, asks for two things in 10 years. So you try to. You should try to. Like, I want to play one position. And now. Well, what. The other thing he wanted was Austin Hedges to come back, and so they did that. I mean, he doesn’t have these huge asks, by the way. You know, he just kind of, well, this would make things better. And they’re all about things that make things better, and they make sense. So because Jose and Austin Hedges run the clubhouse, and you have that in the past, Jason Giambi was the guy that did that. Napoli did it. And so those are. Those are key components. You know, the guardians know what they’re doing with this chemistry stuff. And fans get hung up on, well, he hits 102 or whatever. He’s an elite defensive catcher, and he and Jose run the clubhouse and they have no drama, End of story. He’s a backup.
David Campbell: And if you don’t have that, you don’t come back from 14 and a.
Terry Pluto: Half games around the division, end of story. Backup catcher, elite, defensively runs the clubhouse and bats 102. I don’t care about the last part.
David Campbell: All right, Boy, we’ll be coming up on spring training pretty soon here. It’s going to be February before we know it, so we’ll be hearing from Paul Hoynes and you down in spring training.
Terry Pluto: Yeah, but Hoynes is a Hall of Fame.
David Campbell: That’s true. All right. You said you wanted to talk about Dick Van Dyke. I’m really interested in what this is.
Terry Pluto: If you get a chance to see it. It’s. It’s a grand master series on NPR and what it was a public broadcasting. Whatever the TV version of NPR is. And I just happened to run into it. They’re. They’re replaying a Dick van Dyke. It’s 100 years old, and so it’s a retrospective on his career. And I remember as a kid watching on the Dick Van Dyke show, but the talent of this guy singing and dancing and all of these things, and from Kind of sort of the earliest days of television and Walt Disney movies and character acting. It was just. It was just phenomenal. Was kind of. He just sat there and there he is at 99 and 100, you know, like being interviewed. You know that. And I always wanted to be in a Walt Disney movie. And he was in Mary Poppins. He had a word of English Cockney accent. He’s from. I think it’s Illinois.
David Campbell: Danville, Illinois.
Terry Pluto: Danville, Illinois.
David Campbell: Yeah. Well, a couple things like. So I’m gonna go down a rabbit hole here. There was a. There was a show called Poker Face a couple of years ago that was on Peacock. And it was like. It was an. It was about a woman who was a casino worker. But it was kind of done in the style of the old 70s crime shows like Colombo and everything. So I started watching Colombo because. Yeah, I. I was like. I was kind of craving like the old 1970s detective shows and Dick Van Dyke was on one of them where he was the bad guy.
Terry Pluto: Yeah, he would just show up in everything. He was a guy. He loved to act. You just throw a script his way and it. It. It’s one of those things like the Dick Van Dyke Show. You have to be of a certain age as he. He would walk through the door and like, trip on this has like in front of the door and flip over and stand up. Well, that wasn’t a script. He just did it one time. And then they. They kind of made that as the opening and. And he was. They had all these actors that he was with because, you know, a lot of them younger, they said, oh, how. Say she worked with a lot of child actors on these different Walt Disney things and how wonderful he was to them. And Dick talked about in the middle of his career, he battled alcoholism. He was in a movie which I never saw. I guess it’s one of the dramatic word about alcoholism called the Morning After. It was a TV movie, which was a very gritty role for him from what I saw. But it’s really. To me, it’s fun to watch it. It’s like, you know, I love history. We talked about that. And actually how I found that I was trying to get. I’ve been taping the Roosevelt series by Ken Burns. And I. I bumped into. Then they. They reprieved you during this. They go. And then after this, we’re replaying Dick Van Dyke. And Roberta loves Dick Van Dyke. Absolutely loves Dick Van Dyke. So, you know, I made sure. Taped it. Then we watched it the other night. So Roosevelt stuff’s good, too, by the way.
David Campbell: Yeah.
Terry Pluto: Because it’s on. It’s on Teddy and fdr, all the Ken Burns stuff.
David Campbell: Yeah. The country musical. But I. My second job out of college, Terry, was actually in Champaign, illinois, which is 30 miles from Danville. But it’s, I’m, It’s. It’ll blow. It blows you away to think there are so many famous people from Danville for. You know who else is from Danville? Gene Hackman.
Terry Pluto: Wow.
David Campbell: But you remember Bobby Short, the old singer from, like, back in the Sinatra days. He was from Danville. Dick, Dick and Jerry Van Dyke.
Terry Pluto: Yeah.
David Campbell: And I think Robin Yount was born in dance.
Terry Pluto: That could be right.
David Campbell: Then he moved later.
Terry Pluto: But. Well, if you look at this guy.
David Campbell: Who started in the infield, went to the outfield, right?
Terry Pluto: Absolutely. Yeah.
David Campbell: Hall of Fame. Rob.
Terry Pluto: Yeah, well, you know, sure stuff. She’s your best athlete. But the, the thing too, about General, these guys from the Midwest who do well in show business, you know, Johnny Carson, Bob Hope from Cleveland, you know, all these guys, they, they really. Rob. The original Dick Van Dyke Show. Rob Reiner wrote, kind of wrote it and wrote it kind of for himself, but he was going to be this kind of wise, cracking New York guy, you know, and they did a pilot, and it just wasn’t very good. It just didn’t fit with this kind of family guy who’s a screenwriter, but, you know, more of the aim for middle America. And so somebody said, you need to get Dick Van Dyke, who is doing some Broadway like Bye Bye Birdie or something else, and Van Dyke read for it. And then suddenly it became his. And Reiner then was like the executive producer of it and that. And Reiner helped him periodically with other shows he was in. It was just. To me, I liked it. You know, we say the word wholesome or something people do, but it’s like it was. The guy could do anything. The singing and the dancing and then the mentoring of these younger actors. And I’m like, you know, 100 years old. There are no big scandals about Dick Van Dyke over all that time. Yep.
David Campbell: And Mary Poppins in itself is a miracle that movie was ever dancing with penguins.
Terry Pluto: I always wanted to dance with penguins. That’s one of the. It’s one of the great scenes in that movie.
David Campbell: Yeah.
Terry Pluto: Yeah.
David Campbell: All right. I think that’s going to do it for this week. We’re all done here, right, Terry?
Terry Pluto: That’ll do. That certainly is a way to end. All right.
David Campbell: I did want to mention, as I did earlier, Terry’s newsletter, if you want to sign up for that, go to cleveland.com Pluto go to the blue bar at the top top. You can sign up for a free trial there. Always jam full of great stuff and hit us with any thoughts. I’d like to hear from fans about who they’d like to see as the Browns new coach. We are going to be off next week, but I don’t know that this thing will be wrapped up in two weeks. So we’d love to hear from fans. Yeah, so we’d love to hear from you about who you’d like to see as the next Browns coach. And you can do that by emailing emailing us@sportscleveland.com and put Terry’s talking in the subject line. Thanks for listening, everybody. We’ll talk to you in two weeks on Terry’s Talkin’.