CLEVELAND, Ohio — In the Wine and Gold Talk podcast, Ethan Sands and Jimmy Watkins break down the Cavs’ ongoing struggles while answering questions from subscribers, examining the ripple effects of Cleveland’s lack of toughness and physicality on a nightly basis.
Takeaways:
1. The Absence of Ty Jerome Highlights a Calculated Roster Gamble
The guys addressed a fan’s question about whether the front office underrated Ty Jerome’s impact, concluding that while his instant offense and “swagger” are missed, the context is complex. Jerome struggled significantly in the playoffs and has a notable injury history, which is the same risk the team took on with Lonzo Ball. The trade was a calculated bet that Ball’s theoretical 3-and-D skillset and pace-pushing ability would be more valuable in the postseason. That bet has not yet paid off due to Ball’s poor shooting and the team’s overall injury issues. The speakers concluded that while they miss what Jerome brought over an 82-game season, the logic behind the original trade was sound, even if the results have been disappointing.
2. Significant Bench Upgrades Are Unlikely Due to Salary Cap Constraints
When discussing the bench’s poor performance, the hosts determined that the Cavaliers’ ability to make meaningful upgrades is severely limited. Due to being over the second tax apron, the front office cannot easily absorb salary, making trades difficult. While a player like Lonzo Ball on an expiring contract is the team’s most palatable trade asset for a minor move, finding a guaranteed upgrade for him or other bench pieces is improbable. Any potential deal would likely require attaching draft picks for a marginal improvement, or it would be a lateral “change for change’s sake” move. This financial inflexibility forces the organization to publicly express confidence in its current roster, as they have few viable mid-season alternatives to significantly improve the team.
3. Darius Garland’s Future is Complicated by His Defense and Contract
A central topic was Darius Garland’s status as a defensive liability who gets targeted by opposing offenses. Statistics show the Cavaliers’ defense is nearly six points per 100 possessions worse when he is on the court. Despite this, he remains the “heartbeat” of the offense. The speakers argued that trading him is almost impossible mid-season due to his large contract and the restrictive second apron rules, which make it difficult to find a team willing to take on his salary while providing a better-fitting player in return. Furthermore, Garland’s history of injuries and inconsistent offensive performances in the playoffs raise questions about his reliability as a primary engine when it matters most, creating a significant dilemma for the franchise’s future.
4. The Team Has Failed to Dispel the “Soft” Narrative
Asked directly if the team has done anything to prove they aren’t “soft,” the hosts emphatically stated they have not, and have arguably reinforced that perception. Key evidence cited includes their continued struggles with physicality and a bottom-five defensive rebounding rate in the league. The analysis pointed out that the team’s rebounding is only statistically respectable when the injury-prone Dean Wade is on the floor, highlighting a fundamental flaw in roster construction. The speakers noted that the team is getting outrun in transition and is not responding well to adversity, leading to suggestions that the Cavaliers may need a trade specifically to bring in a vocal leader to address the lack of toughness and accountability in the locker room.
5. Pressure Mounts as Donovan Mitchell’s Contract Decision Looms
The podcast underscored that the team’s persistent issues are magnified by the ticking clock on Donovan Mitchell’s future. With this being the fourth year of the core group (Garland, Mitchell, Allen, Mobley), the franchise has yet to advance past the Eastern Conference semifinals. The hosts suggested that if the team fails to make a deep playoff run to at least the Conference Finals this season, major roster changes will become inevitable. The team’s performance is directly tied to its ability to prove to Mitchell that Cleveland is a place where he can win a championship, which is crucial in convincing him to sign a long-term extension. The current on-court struggles cast serious doubt on that possibility.
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Transcript
NOTE: This transcript was generated by artificial intelligence and could contain misspellings and errors.
Ethan Sands: What up, Cavs Nation? I’m your host, Ethan Sands and I’m back with another episode of the Watch and Goal Talk podcast. And joining me today after dealing with an entire Brown season of firing of a head coach and back with basketball takes like none other, Jimmy Watkins, cleveland.com columnist and as Jimmy knows, the city of Cleveland is getting used to change. Kevin Stefanski was the first domino to drop for the Cleveland Browns, but the Cavs on the other side of town have been dealing with the loss of players all season long. You could look at the injury report or you could also look at the players who are no longer on the Cavs roster. Yes, today we’re going to answer some questions from Subtext subscribers where they send in weekly hey Chris. Or just questions on a daily basis that we get back to and we can pick and choose which ones we feel are podcast worthy. And today, Jimmy, I think this one is one we have to start with. Brian from San Diego comes in hot. He says, guys, do you think the Cavs coaching staff and front office failed to appreciate the significance of Ty Jerome and his impact off the bench last year? He had a huge impact on numerous regular season games with his elite scoring results and his overall feistiness and cockiness. And Jimmy, I think this kind of goes hand in hand with a situation of our teams are NFL teams taking for granted the loss of some head coaches. But let’s stick to hoops for now. What do you think?
Jimmy Watkins: We going for Ty Jerome as the Kevin Stefanski of the Cleveland Cavaliers? That’s. That could be a stretch in either direction. But I will say this. Over 82 games, absolutely. I think the Cavs knew how good Ty Jerome was. By the way, we should also, we should start this by saying Ty Jerome injured, not playing, so they’d be missing him either way. I mean, I don’t know how the butterfly effect works. If Ty Jerome stays in Cleveland, does he get hurt? Who knows? But Ty Jerome has been hurt frequently in his career, much like Lonzo Ball. So they traded one risky injury proposition for another. But they’re two very different basketball players and the bet was in the playoffs. What Lonzo Ball does, in theory what he does, because he’s not doing half of the thing that he does, which is make three pointers, but in theory turning Ty Jerome, who was frankly a little too shot happy in the playoffs last year and lost himself, I think that’s putting it nicely. Exchanging that for a connector 3 and D type pace pusher on Lonzo Ball would in the aggregate be A huge win for the Cavs, particularly when they’re at full strength. Then they started the year not at full strength. And I think that’s where you see, that’s where we have seen the Ty Jerome absence pop up the most, which is just like when the Cavs needed someone who could plug and play and give you instant offense. And Darius Garland’s not out there. Boy, Ty Jerome starts to look about five times more valuable than he was last year. So again, I think the Cavs always appreciated what Ty brought to the table. It was just a miscalculation of how much they would miss him over the course of 82. And if, and if Lonzo Ball theory, this could still happen. If Lonzo Ball turns this shooting, it’s not, it’s. It’s not a slump anymore. He’s just having a bad year. If he turns this around and he can be the guy that they thought he could be at the beginning of the season, which is, I think, why they are hesitant to get away from him completely in the rotation, though. I mean, he has essentially been replaced by Craig Porter Jr. At this point. It could still pay off for them. And I still think sitting here today, we had a question about Isaac Koro. Are they missing Isaac Coro more than we thought? Potentially, as a, as a perimeter lockdown guy. But I would still say even if Lonzo Ball is this bad the whole time, I am still in favor of the Isaac Koro trade. Just because as things stood, I thought the Cavs were going to have to give up a pick to get off of that contract. Instead, they got an expiring contract in Lonzo Ball, which, whether he’s good or not, he’ll be gone soon after this year in that bit of business. But do they miss Ty Jerome? Hell, yeah, they miss Ty Jerome. Do we have all the information on that? Not quite as especially given. The trickiest part about this is that, well, if Ty Jerome was here and hurt and you were paying Ty Jerome over the course of, you know, a longer contract than Lonzo Ball, you’d be in a worse position than you are with Lonzo Ball.
Ethan Sands: Yeah. And I think it’s just a tricky situation all around. Right. Like, we continue to talk about the Cavs needing different things. On yesterday’s podcast, Chris Fedor, cleveland.com Cavs beat reporter, came on saying that the Cavs should trade for George Niang or a player like him. And George Niang has also not played at all this season due to injury. So there’s other things, like depending on whether or not that impact is reliable in the leadership department, in the off court, behind the scenes antics rather than on court purpose. And how helpful can it be for a player to have that kind of role and not be on the floor? That’s why we talk about guys like Max Strutz. That’s why before the season I was imploring the Cavs to either sign somebody in free agency to get somebody in the draft who was not only an enforcer type player, yes, an a hole type player, but also bigger than who the Cavs have as a backup big. And yes, a backup can be that as well because we know and we’ve had this discussion, Max Struss is, is probably one of the toughest players on the Cavs. But if he pushes somebody, maybe they fall to the floor, scuffle breaks out, nothing really happens. But if a big man does that, the outcome is different and I think that’s something that the Cavs have to look at.
Jimmy Watkins: One more thing about Ty Jerome real quick though, and I get where we’re coming from when we’re saying the Cavs are missing that. Not just the scoring but the swagger, the energy that he brought. Can we be honest about Ty Jerome last year? Was the bark maybe a little bit bigger than the bite? Was that, was that something that we saw in the playoffs last year? Like Miami Heat, Ty Jerome extension of the regular season, essentially that series incredible electric changes, the energy of the game every time he comes in. Awesome Indiana facers. Ty Jerome, much like the rest of the Cavs, playing outside of himself, searching, pressing change. The energy for the worst changed energy for the worse when he, when he came in those games, especially except for the last one when he finally found it after being taken out of the rotation and Kenny went back to him like he was part. At the end of the season, we learned he was part of the collective problem when it comes to the Cavs, mental toughness and playing outside of themselves when they hit adversity. Now that was his first playoff run. I was open and I remained open, but one of the reasons I didn’t like losing Ty Jerome was because of the scoring punch that he provided. And I’m not ready to write someone off after one bad playoff series. They’re in their first playoff run. Like it takes everyone, almost everyone short of superst and even sometimes superstars. It takes everyone a while to get adjusted to the playoffs, but Ty Jerome needed adjusting too. So I wonder when the team’s overall energy has been down and weird and the vibes have just been off the whole year. I wonder if that would have affected Ty Jerome as well.
Ethan Sands: Yeah, and we know obviously confidence and delusion is necessary in these things, but the Cavs this season already without Ty Jerome have been over reliant on on talent, over reliant on a little bit of confidence and again depicted in the Indiana Pacers game, didn’t play for the first 36 minutes basically and then turned it on for the fourth quarter. The other portion of this and we can talk about the 82 game season with Ty Jerome because teams weren’t attacking the Cavs defensively the way that they are this season. They weren’t getting in transition the same way because you know what, the Cavs were making shots makes it a lot harder. So say the Cavs struggle offensively and Ty Jerome’s on the floor and he’s not taking the shot. He’s getting cooked in transition by the Toronto Raptors who are in the number four seed in the Eastern Conference playoff opponent potential. Right? He’s getting cooked in transition by the Chicago Bulls. Yes. In an 82 game season. He’s getting burnt on multiple occasions. The Atlanta Hawks again, another team that has done that to the CAVS. Hindsight is 20 20, right. You can’t undo what has been done. So we’re going to have to keep moving forward. And that starts with one of the questions from our subtexters coming from Ben Y from Akron who says it seems abundantly clear that this team’s bench is costing them games. Do you think the front office could realistically find some upgrades to our bench with the tools we have available at our disposal, considering that we have Lonzo Ball’s contract, Larry Nance Jr’s contract, Thomas Bryant’s unguaranteed deal, some second round picks and maybe one tradable first rounder. I’m not sure on the second apron how those rules work here. Well, Ben Y. I can tell you this. The Cavs believe in the roster that they have when fully healthy, right? And we had this conversation on yesterday’s podcast about potentially needing someone more behind the scenes, more leadership, more willing to ruffle feathers than someone who can impact on the floor. And sure there are players who can do both. One thing that I’ve been seeing and obviously I threw out this idea in the off season and everybody looked at me like I had three heads. But now Larry Nance Jr. Has been injured since November 28, could come back for the game against the Minnesota Timberwolves on Thursday. He’s questionable. All these things trending in the right direction. But even when he was healthy he wasn’t really doing a whole lot for the Cavs. A player who I think even though old, even though on a again a one year minimum contract, just as Larry Naz Jr. Could potentially make an impact on this team and has a reputation of being good in locker rooms while still holding teams accountable. Russell Westbrook, a player that can do that offensively and is someone that is just known as a leader. I think there’s, there’s definitely something there potentially and helping out younger guards in this era of the game. But when we talk about Thomas Bryant again, another one year deal and Lonzo Ball, who Jimmy mentioned is is in a contract year, has a club option after this season, I think those are more difficult to go around. But potentially Lonzo Ball for Dahron Sharpe from the Brooklyn Nets is a possibility. Those are like the real two that I can think of. But if you had to ask me who makes more of an impact both on the floor and in the leadership department, I would have to go Russell Westbrook. But yes, this is hypothetical and whether or not the Cavs would do that would also clog up their backup point guard minutes for Craig Porter Jr. But this is just where we’re at in the season with the hypotheticals.
Jimmy Watkins: To me, the last thing any weird locker room vibesy type thing needs is Russell Westbrook in it. Because as much as, as much as he is liked by players, he is a difficult guy to play with and he disrupts the ecosystem of any offense that he plays in. Because if Russ has the ball in his hands, you’re playing the Russ offense. You can still kind of not to the same level that he used to. He can still get to the rim, he still can get teammates open. He plays hard. Although I’ve always thought that his, the whole Mamba mentality thing is a little bit overblown because if you were that engaged then could you play a little bit more, at least a little bit more present defense? He just takes so many gambles and I don’t love it. But I don’t think we have to worry about that Other the Cavs are going to do Russell West. But basically what we’re talking about here, is it possible? Yes. Is there a guaranteed upgrade out there that the Cavs can get given their current resources? No. But you would have to do. And what I tried to do earlier today when I was looking through these questions is find the player you want to trade. Find someone who makes the same or less money than him. And here we Go. And if you find someone that you like. So for example, when you scroll over to the Alonzo Ball section of the salary list, we got people like Derrick Jones Jr. Someone who has been a starting wing on a playoff team before.
Ethan Sands: I don’t know.
Jimmy Watkins: Pat Connaughton shooting playoff experience. I don’t know. I don’t love Pat Connaughton at this stage of his career. Just throwing out names here, folks. Najee Marshall. I think the Mavericks like Najee Marshall, but I’m just saying I’m rattling these off to give you an, an idea of the players in Lonzo Ball’s salary range. If you find one that you think is a definite upgrade, you need to ask yourself, do you think that I can acquire this player by attaching basically just a second round pick? I don’t know if the Cavs are willing to try more than that just for like another seventh, eighth. Man, you know, if we’re, if we’re moving major pieces or potentially that first round pick way down the line, we, we better be moving the needle significantly here because it’s already tricky enough to build this roster given the, the restraints of the second apron. So same thing with your Thomas Bryant, your Larry Nance Juniors, your Dean Wade’s pick someone who makes less money, the same or less money than that player that you think is better. Ask yourself, is the difference a second round pick, two second round picks, what have you? I think the answer is more likely they’re not going to be no in most of those cases and you’re going to have to again, throw some real darts. Someone that’s already not working on your team. So change for change’s sake can be the answer there. I do think the most palatable trade piece on their team given what we’re talking about here, another rotation type guy, not necessarily a needle mover. I think Lonzo’s contract, given that there’s flexibility there, given the way his season is going, I think you can argue he might just need a change of scenery right now. I think that’s, that’s somebody that I think could still have appeal for. Again, we’re talking low salary players for teams. Maybe they want to free up some cap space this summer. Maybe, maybe they’re just trying to play a little faster. They need someone who can get the ball. They have young players who, they need someone that can get them the ball. Lonzo can. For as bad as he has played this year, he is someone who can fit into a lot of different basketball contexts in a vacuum and he’s very expensive with the ro with the contract flexibility at the end of this year. So I think that would be your best bet.
Ethan Sands: Let me say this Jimmy, because I think you make good points and obviously we’re talking about questions from our subtexters that are looking to make increased performance around the margins. Particularly when we talk about the bench unit for the Cleveland Cavaliers that has admittedly struggled this year. I still think the Cavs are going to need Lonzo Ball in different situations defensively, right? I think the Cavs know that Lonzo Ball defensively, we’re not talking about offensively, we’re not talking about his passing acumen, we’re not talking about his poor three point shooting. We’re talking about defensively he matches up better than Darius Garland and Donovan Mitchell in a lot of different matchups. Whether or not Kenny Atkinson is going to be willing to go away from Darius or Donovan, especially in fourth quarter context, is going to be very telling on how he believes this Cavs team is going to do in the playoffs. You can look at the Detroit Pistons game, you can look at the Denver Nuggets game. Kenny Akinson put Lonzo Ball back on the floor because nobody could guard Jamal Murray and Jaylon Tyson needed a break. So Lonzo Ball enter, see what you can do. He had some positive minutes and he helped them win that game. The Detroit Pistons had some trouble stopping or slowing down Kate Cunningham or and I’m laughing about this because he was on the team last year, Javante Green. You need someone to stop those guys. Darius and Donovan are unlikely to be the guys you turn to, especially in late game scenarios. So that does not mean that the Cavs are going back to Lonzo Ball anytime soon. He had another DNP the other night against the Indiana Pacers if that doesn’t tell you anything. So he’s had three DNPs recently and Craig Porter Jr. Has played well when he has not been on the floor. So I think Craig Porter Jr. Especially coming up in his role taking over a more of productivity when it comes to the minutes and Kenny Atkinson being told by his assistants again that he needs to play Craig Porter Jr. More is important in all of these contexts. But again I circle back to this. I think Kenny Atkinson and the organization1 believe that Lonzo Ball can help them in playoff games defensively and two I think a lot of teams around the league are waiting for Lonzo Ball to get past this 35 game threshold. I wrote about it earlier this season with my feature story that Lonzo Ball was aiming for 60 games this season he wants to break 60 for the first time in in a very long time. But to get there, he has to play more than 35 games, which he hasn’t done in the last two seasons in the NBA, which goes all the way back to 2021. The most games he’s ever played in the season was in the 20192020 season, which was 63 when he was on the New Orleans Pelicans. So yes, teams around the NBA are monitoring his health and trying to see how the Cavs are going to use him to get him to the playoffs, which is the most important thing in this equation. But Jimmy, getting into the next portion of this because we talk about Lonzo, we have to also talk about the other guard who has difficulty defending and that is Darius Garland. A question coming from Scoots in Westerville, Ohio says Darius Garland may be getting back offensively, but he is a total defensive liability. I’m tired of watching teams switch him to their alpha and abusing him late in games. Do you think they should attempt to trade for a better fitting piece? Jimmy, we’ve talked about this before, but I’m interested to see what you have to say at this point in the season.
Jimmy Watkins: Last question. When Ethan said the Cavs believe in their roster as currently constructed when healthy, which is quite a mouthful at this point, I would change that to they are incentivized to believe that and that has been the case for a couple of summers now. I think the Cavs understand their flaws, their roster flaws better than they publicly project and I think they publicly project otherwise because there is no benefit to them. And I know everyone wants accountability. I understand people want to hear Kobe Altman say I built too small of a backcourt and I don’t get enough of the boost from having two bigs on the court that I should be getting because both of those two things are true enough directly with the Cavs in the playoffs at times. But if you’re trying to trade some of these players, it helps nobody to acknowledge their deficiencies in a public setting. And if you’re trying to keep these players, then it helps nobody to acknowledge their deficiencies in a public setting. Trust that the Cavs understand that Darius Garland is one of the the worst defenders in the NBA. Their defense is almost I looked this up earlier today, almost 6 points per 100 possessions worse when he is on the court. By the way, DeAndre Hunter is also climbing up the ranks in in that regard. I think he’s they’re four or five points per under possessions. Worse when DeAndre Hunter is on the court this year. He guarded Wemby, though. Remember, everyone, they told us he guarded Wemby for a couple possessions on the Hawks before they traded for him. Defensive player of the year in college. How long ago was that? I digress. But Darius Garland is still the heartbeat of their offense, which is scary given how much he’s injured and how often when he’s healthy, he’s a little up and down in the playoffs. If Cavs fans have reached the point where it’s I don’t want to see this anymore and I want to see change and I think Darius Garland should get traded, I think that’s an understandable place to be after three playoff failures and whatever the heck we’re calling this start to the regular season. Certainly nothing that we’ve seen so far suggests that this is going to be the postseason breakthrough. January 7th. Give them time. We’ll see. It’s just really hard. The same Spotrac chart that I would point to, that I just pointed everyone to after we were talking about Lonzo Ball or Dean Reid or Larry Nance or whoever you want to trade, you have to pick someone who makes the same amount of money which for Darius Garland, the exact same. There are two players who make the same amount of money as Darius Garland, Desmond Bain and John Morant. I don’t think the Magic want to move Desmond Bain right now. I don’t think anyone wants John Range right now. Pick one of those two. I’d actually be a little bit intrigued by Desmond Bain, but pick one of those two or pick someone who makes less money than Darius Garland. Not only less money than Darius Garland you think is a better fit for the Cavs and, and and and and their team would be willing to take on more money in that trade. Everyone’s terrified of the second apron. You might be able to pluck someone off of a bad team with cap space, but how many of those players do you want do you think will be a better fit Darius Scarlin if they’re coming from a losing culture? So it’s just really freaking hard for the Cavs to change their roster in a meaningful way right now. Come the summer can have different conversations. As you know, Lonzo Ball potentially comes off the books and the Cavs can make other salary dumping maneuvers to potentially get under the second apron. That would probably also involve moving a major salary like someone 15, 20 or we’re starting at the floor is Max Stru’s salary and we move up from there. Again, just throwing stuff out here it’s January 7th. Given the way it’s unfolded so far, would it stun Anybody if DeAndre Hunter is part of the cost cutting moves? Eventually it would not shock me. And the Cavs are almost exactly his salary over the second apron floor right now. So it’s not that simple. It’s not easy to ask anybody in this league here, eat $23 million and we’ll give you a pick or something. And the Cavs are going to want something back for that, right? That’s a hard deal to make. Whatever the Cavs want back for that is going to cost money, right? In theory. So it’s just really hard for them to make roster moves right now, which is part of the reason why they are telling you they believe so much in their current court. They don’t have a choice. They can’t switch this thing out midstream of this were three, four years ago. I I think they might be taking a different tune but by the way, this is on them. I know the Mobley defensive player of the year kicker, all NBA kicker pushed them further above the second apron which made it hard for them to maneuver under it during the off season. But like they knew this was coming and they knew that if they were going to make a major change to this roster, the best time to do it would have been before you’re at the second apron. That’s the easiest time to make a move. They made the calculation that no, we think we, we still have something here and to this point they don’t appear correct. But again, it’s yourself.
Ethan Sands: Yeah, and Jimmy, I feel like I’m being devil’s advocate here and let me do this quickly. Darius Garland is the engine of the Cavs offense. He is also admittedly one of the worst defenders in the NBA. Two things can be true, but the Cavs rely on what Darius Garland brings offensively to jumpstart their offense. It looks completely different when he’s not on the floor. Even when he’s on the bench for minutes, you don’t see the same productivity and it’s because of his dribble drive, penetration, his speed, his agility, his three point shot ability, his mid range game that he displayed against the Indiana Pacers and his finishing at the rim. All of these things are also coupled with his passing ability and his IQ on that end of the floor. But I will also say this, and I’ve been saying it since before the season started, if the Cavs do not get to the Eastern Conference finals or to the NBA Finals for that matter, there will more than likely be changes, hefty changes to the roster. Because not only are we having these conversations, but the organization and the front office are having the same conversations. What is that Albert Einstein quote? Jimmy, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and over again, expecting a different result. This is year four of the Cavs core four. Jarrett Allen, Evan Mobley, Donovan Mitchell and Darius Garland. And they have yet to get past the Eastern Conference semifinals. Donovan Mitchell has still not gone past in either conference. And the contract of Donovan Mitchell and I brought this up during the summer is looming. And whether or not he wants to take an extension here, whether or not he wants to come back and fight for a championship year or get a supermax somewhere else, because he is that level of player is coming down the pipeline. And the Cavs have to prove that this. That Cleveland is the place for him to go and try and win a championship. And right now, we’re still questioning whether or not they can get out of the Eastern Conference semifinals. Not a great place to be. But still, this is where we are.
Jimmy Watkins: We’re also year four of Darius Garland not being that offensive engine in the playoffs. Last year, while the Cavs were getting cooked on defense, Kenny Atkinson blamed their Indiana Pacers series loss on the offense not being the same. Darius Garland was hurt in that series. Okay. Year before, Cavs offense was stuck in the mud against the Orlando Magic. Darius Garland was a big part of that. Okay. Darius Garland got hit in the face that year. Okay. Year before was his first playoff. Okay. Okay. What if Darius Garland gets hurt a lot? What if that’s part. What if that’s a feature, not a bug? What if Darius Garland’s toe, like Darius Garland’s toe? We sure we’re out of the woods there. It’s. It’s been touch and go. He has played with some injuries. He’s also been well enough to play, particularly when he was coming back from broken jot, which I know was very hard and wasn’t the only thing he was going through. Yada, yada, yada, we don’t have to relitigate all of that stuff. I understand that he was going through a lot of hard stuff there, but at a certain point, man, like, if you’re healthy enough to play, you’re healthy enough to be evaluated. In my evaluation of Jerus Garland over these last two playoff runs, more so two years ago. Cause I really don’t think that guy could walk last year. Two years ago and the year before has been not good enough.
Ethan Sands: Not going to disagree with you there, Jimmy, but let’s get into this final subtext question for today and this one comes from Rick in San Diego. He said point blank, has this team done anything this season to dispel the notion that they are soft? Because Jimmy, we talked about the transition defense, but the other portion of this that teams are keying in on when they face the Cleveland Cavaliers, rebounding and physicality and getting into them at any point, the Indiana Pacers, who were led by Aaron Neesmith and Andrew Nemhard last night, without Benedict Mathurin, who’s usually the pesky defender at toughness and all these different things, we’re making life hard on the Cleveland Cavaliers, obviously without Donovan Mitchell, but that’s a toughness thing, that’s a physicality thing. And then we talk about rebounding and the Houston Rockets game comes to mind and all these other teams that have continuously tried to attack the offensive glass in particular against this Cavs team. So let’s get back to this question. Have they dispelled the notion that they are soft to you, Jimmy?
Jimmy Watkins: Oh, of course not. They have only emphasized, I think what people have already believed about them, which is they don’t play with enough verve and they don’t respond well when you hit them. Frankly, I was earlier today playing a little catch up with all the brown stuff that’s going on. The Cavs slight uptick and they’ve looked better this in the recent weeks than they were leading up to this. See how this rebound is looking? Still bottom five defensive rebound rate. Still bottom pot. They are. I know Kenny mentioned this the other day and it’s true, they are a much better, they are 91st percentile defensive rebounding team when Dean Wade is on the court. But oh, Dean Wade just got hurt because oh, sometimes Dean Wade gets hurt. Feels like every time Dean Wade carbs and this is a really, I feel for the guy. I really feel for the guy because every time he carves out something approaching a consistent role on this team, he gets hurt. But like I just said about Darius Garland, at a certain point that is part of the evaluation. Man, this guy, he doesn’t stay healthy, doesn’t seem like his body handles the high minute load well. And I know it’s yesterday was a different kind of injury, but it just keeps happening, you know, and, and frankly, if Dean Wade is the linchpin to you being a passable rebounding team and you not being a passable rebounding team, I would say you have, you have yourself an unpassable rebounding team. You can only play so much Dean Wade is what I’m saying here. Right? And so you have to figure something else out. And we’ve been spinning this wheel for four years now, man. Bottom line, you built a too big roster. You’re not getting what you need out of it from Jared Allen and Evan Mobley. And I know the guards are part of that issue, too. You don’t have enough size and or physicality in general to fix that issue. And I know rebounding is. Goes bigger than that. You’re not playing any defense either this year. That’s supposed to be your identity. Clearly, that has changed wholesale. We’ve talked about that before. The Cavs new identity is their offense can be good enough to make their defense more palatable. When they have Evan Mobley, palatable has a different definition. He raises the floor, he raises the ceiling of what their defense can be. But I’m sorry, man, like, you’re getting outrun, you’re getting pushed around, you’re losing a bunch of games at once. You’re not. You’re not even handling regular season adversity well. We’re to the point where Chris said we need a trade. We need to trade for a locker room lawyer. This is what he said yesterday. We need someone to come in and yell at these guys to get their crap together. So, of course not. The Cavs aren’t dispelling any oceans. And by the way, they couldn’t have. It was an unfair setup to begin with. Even if they were the same 65 win machine they were last year, given all the injuries, they would have pushed that narrative and people would have been like, yeah, okay, show me in the playoffs. But now people are going into the playoffs. I mean, if you’re picking today, the Cavs, a second round team, like, I’m so serious. I’m so serious. That hypothetical matchup against the Raptors, that sounds like a nightmare to me. That sounds like a nightmare to me, given what I’ve seen. I still trust as we get closer to playoff time, they will get some semblance of it together. But from what we’ve seen so far, no chance have they dispelled that notion.
Ethan Sands: I’m on the same boat with you there, Jimmy. Obviously, internally, they’re going to have to find some kind of will to play with effort for 48 minutes, not rely on their talent without playing hard. And I think that should be the basic of basketball. The fundamental of basketball is you play hard, you get rewarded. And Dean Wade, we’ve talked about him and his injury history. Back when the Boston Celtics were in town, when they were playing them in the playoff series at the Eastern Conference semifinals two years ago now, people were calling Dean Wade the Celtic Killer. They were resting the entire season on whether or not Dean Wade would return. And we’ve had conversations of, I was.
Jimmy Watkins: Going to say, and then what happened?
Ethan Sands: He got hurt and then he came back and tried to play on one leg, basically, and you don’t get rewarded for that. And I think that’s what Darius Garland has found out, what Jared Allen has found out, what Dean Wade has played through and found out himself. So I think that’s enough Cavs talk for today, but I am going to open a segment up for Jimmy Watkins because I know he had some feelings about this. So if you’re listening, I would implore you to turn your volume down because it’s about to get loud. The Atlanta Hawks have traded Trae Young to the Washington Wizards for Corey Kispert and C.J. mcCollum. No draft picks will be sent to either team in this trade fray. Young is a Washington wizard not because he wants to win ball games, as has been said previously throughout his career, but feels like he’s in it for the payday. Jimmy, I’m going to let you have the floor, my guy. This is not the Zachary Regishet Anthony Davis trade that we thought might have been coming down the pipeline, but a 2 for 1 deal that has the Atlanta Hawks, who are a little bit struggling right now, but basically because of health on the uptick. What you think?
Jimmy Watkins: No draft picks. I mean, as much as this is an amazing victory lap moment for me on this podcast, both because Trae Young going for no draft picks, I mean even like six months ago, that is unfathomable. That is an unfathomable, unfathomable possibility. That tells you two things. One, just how ready the Atlanta Hawks were to get rid of Trae Young. How decidedly they came to the conclusion that this guy is not worth the trouble. Trey Young ahead of a momentary glitch in my head. There’s, there’s some Darius Garland similarities from the the point I was about to make with Trey Young, where he’s super fun, offensive player, good engine, was for a time a one man top 10 offense, a really good passer. But you’re playing tray ball, meaning you’re, you’re going to sit around and watch him dribble and let him make all the decisions, which is not always super fun for everyone else involved. And it got the Atlanta Hawks that one run to the Eastern Conference finals during the pseudo Covid year and not much else. But then on defense he’s a total civ and teams pick on him. And for the, the difference to me right now, if you’re, if you’re panicking hearing me say this, Darius Garland has contributed to big time regular season winners on a consistent basis, which I know isn’t much, but it is much more than you could say about Trae Young, whose teams have annually had a spot in the play in tournament and not much more other than again, the one weird pseudo Covid year in 2021. Right? So the Hawks were super ready to get off of Trey Young and the rest of the NBA was like damn cool. Like this is the best to me tells me that this is the best deal they could have got for him. And it’s tricky because where is Trey Young willing to resign? I mean, if he’s willing to resign Washington, though I would assume he’d be willing to resign in a lot of places. It’s just again, these other teams are think are looking at his next contract and thinking, sorry, is that first number a six? Is that a five or a six or a seven? 50, 60, 70 million. And he’s how tall? And I just don’t care about 27, 28, 29 points a game. He never did that very efficiently, by the way. I just don’t care about the passing and the offensive playmaking that he provides. Though it is impressive, Trae Young is an all NBA level player in that specific regard. It’s just like this is my how the mighty have fallen. The Trae Young reputation has taken such a substantial hit over the last two years or so. And I’ll say it again, he’s a circus player, man. He’s super fun to watch. He knows a lot of tricks. He shoots from super far away. By the way, the tra. The Trey Young Steph Curry comps were always insane because Trey Young’s shooting from 35ft and he’s shooting 35%. Trey Steph Curry shooting from 35ft, he’s shooting 40%. That’s a massive difference. Okay? He’s super fun to watch when he’s rolling. He doesn’t win basketball games. And I feel bad for the Atlanta Hawks that it took them this long to figure that out. And I feel bad for Washington Wizards fans who have to talk themselves into this and then learn slowly over the next two to three years what the Atlanta Fox Atlanta Hawks fans have already learned, which this guy has a ticket to nowhere.
Ethan Sands: And CJ McCollum is also on an expiring contract, so that’ll be interesting for the Atlanta Hawks as well. Well, Jimmy, it’s always a pleasure talking with you on the podcast and appreciate you joining me once again. But with all that being said, that’ll wrap up today’s episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. But remember to become a Cavs insider and interact with Chris, me and Jimmy by subscribing to Subtext. Want to have your questions answered on the podcast? Want to hear your name out on the Wine and Gold Talk podcast? Then sign up for a 14 day free trial or visit cleveland.comcavs and click on the blue bar at the top of the page. If you don’t like it, that’s fine. All you have to do is text the word stop. It’s easy, but we can tell you that the people who signed up stick around because this is the best way to get insider coverage on the Cavs from me, Chris and Jimmy. This isn’t just our podcast is your podcast and the only way to have your voice heard is through subtext. Y’ all be safe. We out.