CLEVELAND, Ohio — In this episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast, Ethan Sands and Chris Fedor discuss the thin line between structural problems and perceived dysfunction — with the Cavs caught somewhere in between.
Takeaways:
1. The Core Issue Is a Crisis of Confidence, Not a Coaching Problem
Despite fan frustration and questions about whether coach Kenny Atkinson has “lost the team,” the consensus is that the players remain bought into his system. The deeper problem is a growing crisis of confidence within the locker room regarding the roster’s overall talent and depth. This doubt stems from the team’s disappointing playoff exit last season against the Pacers, which exposed key weaknesses, followed by an offseason where they failed to make significant upgrades. As the current season progresses, there’s a dawning realization among players that they may simply not be “good enough” to compete at the highest level.
This situation is contrasted with the final year of former coach J.B. Bickerstaff, where there were clear signs of a disconnect and a lack of belief from the players. While Atkinson has been criticized for certain lineup and rotation decisions, the hosts argue that the current mood isn’t a rebellion against the coach’s leadership or strategy. Donovan Mitchell’s public support for Atkinson further underscores that the issue lies with on-court execution and talent, not a fractured coach-player relationship.
2. De’Andre Hunter’s Underperformance Has Created Major Roster Instability
The Cleveland front office is reportedly “baffled” by the significant drop-off in De’Andre Hunter’s performance, as they believed trading for him had solved their long-standing small forward problem. Hunter is having one of the least productive seasons of his career, failing to provide the consistent scoring and shooting the team expected from him. This underperformance has had a significant ripple effect, causing immense lineup turmoil and forcing Atkinson to constantly experiment with different combinations to find something that works.
Hunter’s struggles have placed an outsized burden on other players, particularly Dean Wade and the injured Max Strus. The team found a rhythm with Wade in the starting lineup, but his injury history makes him an unreliable long-term solution. Consequently, the team is now in the difficult position of waiting for Strus to return from a major foot injury, with no guarantee that he will be the same impactful player he was before. Atkinson’s decision to keep Hunter in a sixth-man role is an attempt to help him find his comfort zone, but his inability to fill his intended role remains a core problem for the team’s structure.
3. The Donovan Mitchell Trade Is Viewed as an Unquestionable Success
A fan’s suggestion that the Donovan Mitchell trade was a mistake is vehemently refuted. The hosts argue that the trade has been an unequivocal success, elevating the franchise to a level of relevance, stability, and on-court success it would not have achieved organically. Mitchell’s arrival brought leadership, professionalism, and national notoriety, culminating in a 64-win season and giving the organization its most successful stretch in the post-LeBron James era.
The argument is made that without Mitchell, the Cavaliers would likely still be a team fighting for a play-in spot rather than one with established playoff experience. His impact is considered so significant that he has a chance to be remembered as the second-most impactful player in franchise history, behind only LeBron James. Therefore, despite the team’s current struggles and playoff shortcomings, the front office has no regrets about the trade, as it provided a necessary jolt of star power and accelerated the team’s competitive timeline.
4. The Inconsistent Development of Garland and Mobley Is the Real Concern
The primary source of the Cavaliers’ struggles is not Donovan Mitchell, but the inconsistent development of the team’s other cornerstones, Darius Garland and Evan Mobley. While both have shown flashes of brilliance and earned accolades, they have failed to become the every-night, reliable stars the team needs them to be. This lack of consistent production has forced Mitchell to shoulder an unsustainable offensive and leadership burden, leading to concerns about his high usage rate, fatigue late in games, and durability over a long season.
For the Cavaliers to reach their championship aspirations, they need Garland and Mobley to consistently perform at an All-Star level and reduce the load on Mitchell. The hosts suggest that a star’s defining quality is their ability to carry the burden nightly, and it remains uncertain if Garland or Mobley are capable of doing so. The team’s future success hinges less on Mitchell and more on whether its young core can finally make the leap from promising talent to consistently great players now.
5. The Cavaliers Face a Difficult Trade Deadline with Limited Assets
The team’s glaring need for wing depth and production has put the front office in a difficult position heading into the trade deadline. While an external addition seems necessary, the Cavaliers have a limited pool of appealing trade assets that they would be willing to part with. The most realistic trade chips are players on expiring or team-option contracts, such as Lonzo Ball and Dean Wade. These players could be packaged with second-round picks to attract rebuilding teams looking for salary cap relief, but they are unlikely to yield a significant, impact player in return.
Meanwhile, trading a more valuable player like Max Strus is considered improbable. His contract and skill set are best suited for a contending team, not the rebuilding organizations the Cavaliers would likely be trading with. This mismatch makes finding a suitable trade partner for a major deal difficult. As a result, the team may be forced to rely on internal improvement and the return of Strus from injury — viewing him as a “trade deadline addition” — rather than making a significant roster shakeup.
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Transcript
NOTE: This transcript was generated by artificial intelligence and could contain misspellings and errors.
Ethan Sands: What up, Cavs Nation? I’m your host, Ethan Sands, and I’m back with another episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. And joining me today, none other than Chris Fedor, cleveland.com Cavs beat reporter and we’re coming to you guys with some questions from From Subtexters. Yes, you heard that right. We had some dedicated subscribers to our subtext service where they get daily conversations with me, Chris and Jimmy. You get 14 days free or 3.99amonth, and it’s accessible to your phone. And you can also stop the program by simply texting stop when done with hearing what we have to say about this Cleveland Cavaliers team, or simply just done with the team overall. But as I mentioned, we did have some frustrated Subtext subscribers who implored us to get some questions off today. So before we get into this, these are the couple of topics that we’ve already covered on this week’s episodes of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. Kaz Identity crisis and accountability issues, why playing from behind has become a dangerous habit, roster toughness, physicality and what’s missing nightly? The vanishing defensive identity, which we covered at length on this podcast. And then Donovan Mitchell’s workload, responsibility and what the Cavs are asking him to carry. So I asked the subtexters what concerns are still unanswered for them and what are we missing that we haven’t talked about yet? And I think this is where we get into these questions. And we’re going to start with our guy Jeff, who says he’s frustrated in Friday Harbor, Washington, and he says it starts with the top down. Was last year just a honeymoon with Kenny Atkinson, and has he now lost the team? Look at the players on the court. They look uninterested. No fire until the fourth quarter. Or is there more impact from the assistance that the Cavs lost in the offseason than we realize? Chris, what do you think? We’ve talked about it a little bit about Jordan Knott, demari Carroll, their roles with this team last year. But is Kenny Atkinson losing this locker room?
Chris Fedor: No, I don’t think so. Look, they’ve won four of their last six games. They’re playing their best basketball of the year as the season has gone on. But I totally understand the frustration and I brought that up, the four of the six to tell you that they’re still bought in. They’re still playing the style that Kenny wants to play. I think there are a few things that are going on here. I don’t think they’re as talented as they thought they were coming into. I don’t think they’re as deep as they thought they were coming into the season. And I think as the season progresses and you start to see things as players, it becomes too difficult to ignore. And the sense that I get is that there are people inside this organization, players inside that locker room, that wonder if they’re Good enough. They’re 21 and 18. It’s almost the midway point of the season. I think you look around and you say, do we have enough? Because let’s go all the way back to the off season, right? They’re coming off this loss against the Indiana pacers. They lost 41 in that series. And yes, there were some players that said, if we would have been fully healthy, what would that series have looked like? If we would have been fully healthy, we would have won that series. Darius Garland said that point blank, on the record, that if they would have been healthy, he thinks they would have won. Now, there were other players that said, hey, yeah, we weren’t healthy. Evan hurt his ankle in game one. DeAndre Hunter had the thumb. Darius Garland was playing on nine toes. So we weren’t the version of the Cavs that we needed to be to beat that caliber team. At the same time, there were things in our control that we didn’t do well enough. There were things that showed in that series against Indiana that were problematic. So we’ve got to take a look in the mirror. We’ve got to make some changes here moving forward. There were those conversations coming off that series loss against Indiana. So if they weren’t good enough last year against the Pacers, what did they do to get better? If you’re a player in this locker room and you know that you weren’t good enough last year against the Pacers, you’re looking at this saying, what’s changed? What do we do to get better? We’ve gotten worse, right? I mean, it’s a human reaction. It’s a natural reaction. At some point, you just have to look at this honestly and you have to have this kind of evaluation. And look, none of the players are going to come out publicly and say, we’re not good enough. We don’t think we’re good enough. But that’s the behavior that I’m seeing. That’s the kind of attitude that I’m seeing. That’s the mood, that’s that I’m sensing. And it doesn’t mean that it can’t change. Max Stru’s coming back does a lot. He’s a very important player for this team. If they happen to make a small move around the periphery around the time of the trade deadline, that could give them a little bit of boost. If they have more time together with the core four and Dean Wade in the starting lineup and it continues to look successful, then that can change the belief, right? That can change the mood in the locker room. That can make them become a team that they haven’t shown that they can be throughout the first half of this season. So I totally understand like looking at body language, looking at facial expressions, looking at a lack of intensity, a lack of focus, a lack of effort and then drawing the through line and saying, well they’ve tuned out the coach. I think they’re still doing the things not to the high level that they need to be doing it. I still think they’re doing the things that Kenny is asking of them. I still think they believe in his offensive system, his offensive style. I still think they believe in his defensive system, his defensive style and the things that he continues to preach. They got to execute it. I think it has been though an eye opener in the first half of the season of oh man, we’re not as talented as maybe we thought we were coming into this season because Darius hasn’t played like an all star. Evan Mobley hasn’t played like second team all NBA. They don’t have anybody in the running for six man of the year the way that they did last year. And I do think that that has become more and more glaring as this season has gone on.
Ethan Sands: And Chris, I hear everything that you’re saying. You make some good points but to me all I’m hearing is if, if, if if this happens because we understand Dean Wayne is listed with a left knee contusion but but that also was something he was dealing with before he got re aggravated against the Indiana Pacers where he kind of went down on his on his own power and fell slipped trying to go into a dribble series. All these things. Don’t know how long he’s going to be out. Don’t know how long he’s going to be sidelined. That’s extremely impactful for the Cavs, especially as they were getting into a rhythm with him in the starting lineup as Chris was mentioning. Then you talk about Max Strust. We have also had this conversation on the podcast about what version of a Max Juice the Cavs are going to be getting, how he’s going to impact the team, is he going to have the same movement, is that foot is going to allow him, is he going to be able to play him back to back when he comes back? All of these questions, if, if, if, if. And I think that’s what fans are trying to understand because at this point in the season and with Kenny Atkinson and the decisions that he was making, we can look at him starting Craig Porter Jr. Three small guards against the Minnesota Timberwolves, who in no world are a small lineup with three small guards of Craig Porter Jr. Darius Garland and Donovan Mitchell simply didn’t make sense. But then you talk about whether or not Katie Atkinson have made the right rotations, lineups, all these things, but it always comes back to the conversation about injuries. And now we’re getting to the point where the Cavs are going to play in their 40th game of the season on Saturday, that 41 game, halfway mark. Sure, there’s still a lot of time left in the season. Another 41 games to go is a lot of time for this Cavs team to come back. But there’s still questions about whether or not Kenny Atkinson is doing exactly what is necessary. And obviously we saw the offensive production from the team last year. Defensively, I think there’s still questions because of how they have changed their system, whether or not that’s actually working, because of the statistics about how many three point attempts, how many three point makes, open looks from the three point range opponents are getting against the Cleveland Cavaliers and their point of attack defense, even though that was supposed to be the emphasis on the defensive end of the floor this year, I think there’s a lot of things that we can look at.
Chris Fedor: Yeah, I mean that’s fine, but that’s a different conversation than have the players tuned him out. Has he done things wrong? Of course. Has he made bad lineup decisions? Yes. Has he had a hard time figuring out the right starting lineup and the right rotations? Yes, we’ve talked about that. It doesn’t mean that he is free from criticism, but that’s a completely different conversation than have the players tuned him up. Look, in the last year of JB Biggerstaff, you felt it. You felt a group that just was not on the same page with their head coach. You heard the rumblings in the locker room, right. You could sense the frustration with the players and how JB was doing things, shootarounds, practices, how rigid he was with certain things. You could sense a lack of belief in that locker room, in J.B. bickerstaff as a tactician because of some of the comments that they were making over and over and over again. You felt that in the final year of jb. And we talked about all of that on this podcast. We wrote about all of that for cleveland.com because there were signs. There were signs that this group needed somebody else to take them to the next level, whatever that level was going to be. There were signs that this group just didn’t believe in JB Bickerstaff the way that they needed to. That’s not the feel that I have in the first half of the season. That’s not where I’m at yet. I don’t see those same signs. I don’t feel that same thing in the locker room. So I think we continue to let this play out. We continue to allow Kenny Atkinson to fail in some of these things that he’s going to do. Because you learn through failure just like you learn through success. And yes, you’re right, he has not done everything correct. Yes, you’re right. There are lots of things about this Cavs team to criticize, but I don’t get the sense that there is a lack of belief from the guys in the locker room when it comes to Kenny and when it comes to the decisions that he makes and the style of play that he has implemented that this team hopes will still allow them to be the team that they felt like they could be coming into this season. We’ll have to see. There is a big wait and see. There are a bunch of ifs attached to it, but they have been playing better as of late. They have been doing things in a positive way, offensively, maybe not so much defensively, more so offensively. Kenny finally, finally landed on the Dean Wade in the starting lineup thing, which was a needed thing, and it was working before Dean hurt his knee. Provide a little bit of background. Dean had an MRI in Minneapolis when the Cavs landed in Minneapolis, and I’m told that it was basically all clear that it wasn’t anything more serious than. Than a knee contusion. But he was going to miss multiple games as a result, and tomorrow, obviously, is going to be his second consecutive missed game. But the MRI being clean was a positive and a big sigh of relief because when the Cavs left Indiana, there was a lot of tension. There was a lot of anxiety about Dean Wade’s knee, and that’s why they took the MRI in Minneapolis as a precaution. But. But Kenny going to that lineup and having it work during that stretch before Dean hurt his knee, that was a positive. That was a sign of growth. That was like maybe two weeks later than it needed to be. Maybe Three weeks later than it need to be. But he got there. You know, taking Lonzo Ball out of the rotation and giving those minutes to Craig Porter Jr. Again, another good move, probably took a little bit too long, probably caused some frustration, but Kenny got there. And I think as this season continues to go on, there are going to be things that he does wrong. But if he ultimately ends up getting there and the Cavs are better because of it, and we’ll have to see if they are, but if they’re better because of it, then that at the end of the day is. Is what matters most.
Ethan Sands: Let me be clear. I in no means was saying that Kenny Atkinson has to be perfect. He’s human. Nobody’s perfect. I’m not perfect. Chris isn’t perfect. Kenny’s not perfect. Right. We understand that and we talk about that probably more on this podcast than a lot of others. These people are human before they’re coaches, players, athletes, whatever you want to say. The other portion of this, Chris, and I think you kind of pointed to it, and how the Cavs want their season to go. Learning from what is happening, learning from doing things wrong, learning from mistakes, Kenny Atkinson trying to figure things out and having that pay off down the road, that’s important. The other portion of this that we’re getting back to, the original question of has Kenny Atkinson lost the locker room? Donovan Mitchell made it very clear at shoot around before the Denver Nuggets game on January 2, saying, I’m thankful for Kenny not being afraid to call us out. That’s why we love him. That’s why we respect him. And you can end the quote there. That’s exactly the thought of the franchise. Face someone who believes in Kenny Atkinson, believes in the structure, believes in how this is going to turn around.
Chris Fedor: J.B. bickerstaff was a good coach in Cleveland. He proved that during his time here. He got the Cavs to this point. He got them out of the darkness. And he was a big part of. Of this turnaround, this franchise turnaround. Yes, there were other moves made. The front office deserves credit, too, for the moves that they made and the trades that they made and the signings and the draft picks and all that kind of stuff. But when JB was here, he was a good coach. He proved that. Look what he’s doing in Detroit. He’s in the conversation once again for coach of the year. Last year, Kenny Atkinson was coach of the year, and he earned that. He deserved that. At some point, people are going to have to start looking at the players. If you decided that JB wasn’t the right guy with this group of players and he’s gone on to have a bunch of success so far in Detroit and you brought in Kenny and he was good enough to win coach of the year and now you’re having similar questions. Maybe start looking at the players, maybe start looking at the roster, make it. Maybe start looking at the core four. That’s all I’m going to say. Like you can’t just keep changing coaches over and over and over again and ignore the fact that you may have the wrong group of guys in that locker room. Not saying that they do, but like that to me would be the logical next step for this organization. Well, we had JB and it didn’t work with him and we had Kenny and it may not work with him. So maybe, possibly it’s not the coach. Just maybe.
Ethan Sands: I think that’s a good point because We’ve talked about J.D. baker, Stafford and what he meant to this organization and especially talking in this kind of category. Whether or not the players were ready for his style of coaching to get them to the level of physicality, preparedness for the playoffs or ready to just have that level of routine and scrutiny and strictness when it came to everything that Jay Br did. Anyway, we’ve been on this topic for way too long. Let’s get into the next one and it goes into a little bit about what Chris was talking about, potentially changing the roster or a roster move that the Cavs have already made. This question is about DeAndre Hunter. This subtexter says. I think the key to everything right now is DeAndre Hunter. If he was the answer at the starting three, they’d be in a much better spot and wouldn’t be missing Max Drus as much as they are. Can he somehow reclaim the starting spot? I think he’s been training up outside of his three ball. Well, let me give the quick answer here. The fact that Kenny Atkinson has not plugged DeAndre Hunter back into the starting lineup even when it’s seemed necessary, should be an indication that they are going to try and keep him in that six man role as much as possible. Kenny has talked about it making it feel more comfortable for him when it comes to lineups and rotations. DeAndre Hunter has talked about him just feeling better in that role, knowing he’s going to have the ball in his hands a little bit more, get to be more of a scorer, that he is also growing his rebound game which is going to help the Cavs. But ultimately Kenny Atkinson not making These moves in the last couple of games when Deanway’s been injured should be a telltale sign that DeAndre Hunter is likely going to maintain as the sixth man for this Cleveland Cavaliers. Tee.
Chris Fedor: Yeah, I think Kenny’s going to continue to go that way. Um, I think he’s going to continue to try and make DeAndre as comfortable as possible. And I think changing his role from starter to reserve is not the best way to make him comfortable. So I think he. He wants to have this Runway to allow DeAndre to settle in to someone and a style of play and a kind of usage that. That Kenny believes DeAndre didn’t really have at the beginning of the year. And I think Kenny would be the first one to admit that how he was using DeAndre, the things that he was asking him to do at both ends of the floor probably wasn’t the best. And he had to reevaluate that. And he did. He did reevaluate that in saying all of that. Look, this front office believed that they solved the small forward problem when they traded for DeAndre. That was their belief, that they answered any questions that anybody had about the wing spot of the small forward, however you want to term it. And they believed coming into this year that DeAndre was going to have a huge year. He was going to be more comfortable, he was going to be. Have more freedom, he was going to be more vocal because he had been around the guys longer, he had been inside the organization longer, he had been around Kenny longer. And none of that has happened to this point. It has been one of the worst years, one of the least productive years of DeAndre Hunter’s career. And the Cavs are baffled by it. Quite frankly, they are baffled by it. They. They believe that he’s a better shooter than what he has shown. They believe he’s a better scorer than what he has shown. They believe that he’s a better player than what he has shown in the first half of the season. They’re hoping. They’re hoping that he is going to regress to the mean that he is going to become DeAndre at some point in time. But. But if he doesn’t, if he can’t, then it. It is a problem for this team because there was a role that he was supposed to occupy, there was a position that he was supposed to play, and if he can’t do it now you’re starting to ask Dean Wade, hey, can you. Can you be that guy? Can you be the fifth starter alongside the core four? Can you be the right Fitting guy alongside the Core four. How about you? Max Stru? We’ve seen you, you’ve done it, you have shown it. But the version of Max that the Cavs are going to get may not be the version of Max that they’ve gotten since he signed with the Cavs. So all of a sudden, like things are kind of thrown a little bit out of whack because DeAndre hasn’t been good enough and because Max has missed the entire season coming off the foot surgery, you know, when he had foot surgery, I think everybody inside the organization was like, we’re going to feel that loss. We are going to feel that loss. We understand the value of Max. We understand how well he fits alongside the core four. But we still have DeAndre, but we still have Dean. We believe in Dean, we like Dean, but we Jaylon Tyson, second year player, more opportunities, more minutes, all that kind of stuff. But I agree with the texter that DeAndre’s play has been problematic for a variety of reasons. And I think the biggest reason is that the Cavs believed that they, that they spent the resources that they needed to spend to fix that problem, to solve that problem, to, to find the starter, quality wing that was kind of missing from this roster. And because he hasn’t been that, he can still, there’s a second half of the season still to play. But because he hasn’t been that, it has caused a whole lot of lineup turmoil, it has caused a whole lot of rotational turmoil, it has caused Kenny Atkinson to tinker with lineups and combinations. It’s not an excuse. It doesn’t mean that, you know, Kenny deserves a pass on some of these failures that he’s had with these lineups. But if DeAndre was better, if he was having a more productive season, a lot of these questions that we have raised here, they wouldn’t exist.
Ethan Sands: I will never Forget. Terry Pluto cleveland.com historic columnist we’re at Kenny Agassin and Koby Altman’s pre training camp program press conference and Terry Pluto is coming in firing, asking how do you solve the small forward problem? And Colby Altman kind of laughed it off. He was like, I thought we did that when we traded for DeAndre Hunter, right? Well, Colby, we’re still having these conversations because DeAndre Hunter isn’t the answer. So sure. At the beginning of the season, the Cavs and fans and us were talking about last year how DeAndre Hunter in the Core 4 sample size was too small. Now we’ve seen it, maybe it doesn’t work, but again, this is also difficult because Darius Garland was hurt to start the season. Jared Allen’s been hurt for stretches. Evan Mobley’s been hurt for stretches. So what version of the Cavs are they going to have going into the playoffs is going to determine what Kenny Atkinson is able to do and what combinations he’s going to have at his disposal? That’s why this experimentation process is so important.
Chris Fedor: And here’s the other thing. If you’re the front office, okay, we’re a month away from the trade deadline, understand the limitations and the salary cap restrictions and stuff like that. But if you’re the front office, you’re asking yourself, how much can we rely on DeAndre Hunter? How much can we rely on Dean Wade? How much can we rely on the version of Max Struse that we’re going to get coming off a significant injury? No preseason, no training camp, probably going to miss close to like 50 to 55 games when it’s all said and done. Somebody who’s a movement based player, somebody who’s constantly in the action, somebody who’s got an injury that he’s recovering from that is typically at risk of re injury. I don’t think the Cavs thought that they were going to be in this position where they had to ask those questions with the trade deadline around the corner, but I think they are in that position where they have to ask those questions and then they have to. They. They have to ask themselves, okay, like, we invested a lot of resources in deandre. We traded Caris, we traded George, we traded draft capital for DeAndre. Do we have to, again, throw a bunch of other resources at that same problem? Because, like, we can’t rely on DeAndre to the level that we need to. Because we can’t rely on Dean Wade as much as we want to because of the whole injury history. And because we can’t rely on Max Strus coming off this particular injury this season and him being the kind of impact player that he has been. It’s. It’s a tough situation that the Cavs are in. But. But I do think it’s one Ethan, that, that they have to consider because just look at how the Cavs look without Dean Wade and Max Struse at the same time. Kenny went to Craig Porter Jr. In a starting lineup that made no sense. He started Donovan Mitchell at small forward. There was one of the people with the Minnesota Timberwolves that turned to me and they said, is Donovan a forward? I said, no, he’s a guard. They’re like, well, on the main Box score, he’s listed as a forward. And then I had to explain all the reasoning why. But like, not a lot of coaches would start Donovan Mitchell at 4. But like, when you’re missing Max at the same time that you’re missing Dean and you can’t play Lonzo, you feel that, you feel that shortened rotation, you feel that lack of wing productivity. You have to start asking yourself those questions, what do we have to do, if anything, to remedy that situation? And does it require external additions as opposed to internal?
Ethan Sands: Kenny Atkinson saying earlier this season when Craig Porter Jr. Was getting more minutes, oh, you know why I play with that interchangeable guard lineup alongside Jared Allen, Evan Mobley? It’s because Craig Porter Jr. Plays like a four six foot one, plays like a power forward. My goodness.
Chris Fedor: If you look at the last two games, this is January, right? We’re not even at the trade deadline. Kenny Atkinson has shortened his rotation to a playoff level. Second half against Indiana, he played eight. Eight, right. The other night he played nine against Minnesota. And this is a guy who coming into the season was saying, look at our depth. I have all these difficult decisions to make on who can get minutes, who can’t get minutes because I’ve got like 12 or 13 guys that I could give minutes to. He’s down to eight, nine.
Ethan Sands: Yeah, it’s difficult. And again, nobody’s perfect. Everybody’s trying to figure it out, trying to figure out what they’re going to have going into the playoffs. But we’re here, so I want to have this conversation really quickly. Dean Wade is on an expiring contract, a player that the Cavs now feel like they need. DeAndre Hunter, probably the most physical dude that the Cavs have had on a nightly basis going at Rudy Gobert, pushing Indiana Pacers players, having that mindset and mentality that we’ve talked about the Cavs needing physicality wise when it came to the playoffs. Max Struth, probably the most mentally tough cavalier that we’ve mentioned on this podcast. At length, three players that the Cavs feel like they might need in some capacity are all potentially on the chopping block come trade deadline time because they’re trying to figure out how to maneuver things around them. And it’s not to say that the Cavs are taking calls and trying to figure out which of these three needs to go. It’s more so trying to figure out who is going to get the most return and if that return is going to help them in the now when they talk about this playoff run, I just think it’s very interesting. Dean Wade is a player that obviously Chris still the mayor of Dean Wade Island. Trying to figure out why it’s taking so long for Kenny Atkinson to implement him in the starting lineup. Hasn’t been healthy, struggles with the knee issues for his entire career. Someone the Cavs need. DeAndre Hunter, also injury prone. Max Stru, also injury prone. There’s just so many layers to this small forward problem that the Cavs have not found an answer to. And still we’re having this conversation because the players that are potentially not going to be on the team after February 5th feel like they’re intricate to what the Cavs do at every layer of the game. Not just on the floor, but mentally, physically, and who they are as an identity team.
Chris Fedor: I mean, you bring up the trade deadline and here’s the thing, Ethan, you have to find the right fitting trade. So any team that you’re trading with, you have to give them what it is that benefits them. You have to give them what it is that they ultimately need. And chances are you’re trading with bad teams, teams that are very close to the bottom of the standings, teams that are more concerned about ping pong balls for the lottery, teams that have underachieved and want to reset their salary cap situation.
Ethan Sands: So.
Chris Fedor: So if you’re talking about those kinds of teams that the Cavs are targeting, Washington, Charlotte, Sacramento, New Orleans, all these other teams that, that have been labeled potential sellers at the deadline, what do you think they’re going to want from the Cavs? They’re going to want some kind of salary cap relief combined with young players and draft capital. We understand the situation that the Cavs are in with draft capital. They don’t have a bunch of it. The young, intriguing players that they have on this roster are all in their nightly rotation. They need them. So you start to ask yourself, okay, what are the pieces that the Cavs could potentially send out that are going to be appealing to another team that are going to match what that other team is looking for? Lonzo has value. From what I hear, Lonzo has value. You know why? Because he’s an expiring contract. So if a team is looking for salary cap relief, they’ve got $10 million coming to them because Lonzo, he’s not technically an expiring contract because he’s got a team option. But I don’t know that there are a lot of teams that are motivated to pick up his $10 million team option based on what he has shown in the first half of this season. So Essentially, he would be a salary dump. Right. But you have to attach something else to Lonzo to motivate that team. It can’t be just salary cap space that they’re gaining. So the question becomes, all right, what does Lonzo’s contract that is team friendly because there is a team option to it that turns into a potential expiring contract. What does that? Plus some future draft capital in the form of second round picks. What does that get you? Look, if you think back to last year, Kerris was on an expiring, George Niang was on and expiring, and there was draft capital attached to it. Why did that appeal to Atlanta? Because they wanted salary cap flexibility for this off season. How did they use that? They went out and they got Nikhil Alexander Walker. They traded for Porzingis. So the point is the Cavs and the Hawks were a fit because what the Cavs were willing to offer fit what the Hawks wanted in return. So the Cavs have to find those teams that, that want the same thing that Atlanta did last year. And I do think there are teams that are motivated to create that level of salary cap space. And then Lonzo Ball becomes the, the, the player that you dangle. The other one is Dean. Dean’s on an expiring contract. Dean’s a free agent at the end of this off season. So those two guys there, there are bad teams that are going to be looking for salary cap space. Those two guys could provide it. They can’t put them both together in the same kind of trade. But, you know, as the trade deadline gets closer and closer, I think you’re going to hear Lonzo’s name, I think you’re going to hear Dean’s name, you’re going to continue to hear DeAndre’s name. Because I don’t think Dean is expendable. I don’t like. I think he’s really, really important to the success of this team. And I think he will have more value as a player on this team, a rotational player on this team, than what he brings back in a trade. But they’re pretty limited in the kind of appealing assets that they have that they would actually be willing to give up, that they would actually consider, quote, unquote, expendable. And you bring up Max Strus, this isn’t a mean thing saying that he’s not a good player and he has no value across the league and he doesn’t make a difference when he’s in the lineup for the Cavs. But what kind of team wants Max Strus why would a rebuilding team want Max Struse? What does that do for them? He’s not an unexpiring contract. The salary cap relief that they would theoretically get for Max Strus doesn’t come this off season. So, like, who’s the fit? What team becomes the fit? Max Strus makes sense for the Cavs, right? Max Drus makes sense for a team like Boston that has championship aspirations, a team like Denver that has championship aspirations. That’s the kind of player that, that fits those teams. Like, why would Washington want Max? Like, what does that do for them? Why would Charlotte want Max Streets? What does that do for them? Why would the Sacramento Kings, who are probably about to take a wrecking ball to their organization, what would Max do for them? You know what I’m saying? So, like, this isn’t about him being less valuable or less impactful or not as good of a player as Georgian Yang last year, Eris Lavert last year, but his contract means that there are only certain kinds of teams that would be interested in him in a potential trade. So I find it hard to believe that they’re gonna trade backs. I think it’s more likely that they look at Max as a potential trade deadline addition because they haven’t had him this year and they would get him back following the trade deadline. So, I mean, I think if we’re ranking it, if the, if the Cavs do not have the appetite, Ethan, and from everything I hear, they still don’t have the appetite to make this significant, drastic roster shakeup right now you’re saying to yourself, who are the guys out there that would be valuable at the trade deadline to another team? The answer to that is Lonzo Ball. DeAndre Hunter, Craig Porter Jr. As like a young, a young player on a team friendly contract that they would consider an asset. Tyrese Proctor, there might be some interest there as like a, a toss in type thing. Dean Wade and Jalen Dice, those would be the guys. And then you ask yourself, like, what caliber player are the Cavs getting back for those guys and how much better does that. That make the Cavs? It’s hard to say that any of those kinds of packages would make the Cavs significantly better.
Ethan Sands: We talked about the depth earlier. Right. In the contract situation surrounding so many of these players is that they’re on the last leg of their deal. Right?
Chris Fedor: Right.
Ethan Sands: Craig Porter Jr. Has a club option after the season. Lonzo Ball has a club option after the season. Dean Wade is on an expiring contract. Thomas Bryant is on an expiring. Contract. Larry Nance Jr. Is on expiring contract. All of these guys. The Cavs are going to have to make a decision after the season whether they make a move at the trade deadline or not. That wasn’t necessarily what we were talking about when we said the Cavs are going to make a change. If they don’t get to the Eastern Conference Finals or the NBA Finals, bigger changes could be coming. But we also can understand that around the margins, this team is going to look different next year and that’s why there’s so much pressure. There was so many expectations on this team coming in and that’s why it has been a disappointment to this point in the season. Because the Cavs came in saying championship aspirations, knowing the contract situations on multiple of their players and the depth that they came in thinking that they were going to have. And now you’re telling me that this Cavs team coming into tonight is in the Play in tournament, they’re the seventh seed in the Eastern Conference and that’s unacceptable for them. It’s unacceptable for the organization, it’s unacceptable for Dan Gilbert. But Chris, I want to get into this because we talked about injuries. This is the last question on today’s podcast and it’s coming from Dave in PA and he does a little bit of injury history and takes us back. Here’s where I am with the Cavs, Dave and PA says the Donovan Mitchell trade will be viewed in hindsight as a mistake. The real end of the future of the Cavs was Ricky Rubio’s 2021 ACL tear. Here’s why. That team was the original Cavalanche team and Ricky Rubio transformed the bench into a monster unit. He gets injured, the Cavs stumble down the stretch, losing the play in. Instead of Evan Mobley and Darius Garland getting top dog playoff reps, they end up struggling until the Donovan Mitchell trade. As a result, Evan Mobley and Darius Garland will never reach their potential. Break it up now and move on. Chris, your reaction to that because, oh boy, that’s some memory lane right there.
Chris Fedor: So here’s my reaction that the addition of Donovan Mitchell took this team to heights that it wasn’t going to get to without him. And that can’t be ignored. Even though we’re having these conversations about the Cavs being a disappointing team right now, even though we’re having these conversations about the Cavs being outside the playoff picture in the Eastern conference right now, 64 wins happened and last year was a big deal. Now when you become an organization and you Take these next steps. Expectations change, pressure changes. All of that. All of that comes with it, right? But at the time that the Cavs traded for Donovan, there wasn’t that pressure. There weren’t those expectations. Not yet, anyway. It wasn’t finals or bust. You have to mature as an organization into that, okay? The Cavs don’t mature as an organization into that without Donovan. And you just can’t ignore. You just can’t say to yourself that that regular season doesn’t matter. Like, these aren’t LeBron’s Cavs, you know what I mean? And it wasn’t always championship or bust. It wasn’t always finals or bust. And this team has had a ton of success with Donovan Mitchell, the most success that they’ve had in any post LeBron era. And there was no guarantee that they were going to get to this point without Donovan. In fact, I don’t think they would have gotten to this point without Donovan. So in no way could I ever look at that trade and say that was not successful. It doesn’t matter what happens with Lowry, Markina. It doesn’t. And it doesn’t happen. It doesn’t matter what happens with Colin Sexton or Ochai Abaji or anybody else that was involved in that particular trade, because the Cavs got out of that, what they. What they ultimately wanted and what they ultimately needed, and they reached a place that they were not going to get to organically. They needed Donovan Mitchell to get to the second round. And you can say the second round is not successful. And. And you’re right. At this point, it’s not. But at the time that they traded for Donovan Mitchell, this was a rebuilding team that was fighting for play in positioning. He comes. He gives them hope, he gives them stability. He gives them a star player. He gives them leadership. He just gives them a different professionalism. He gives them a different amount of respect. He gives them a different amount of notoriety. He gives them a different amount of attention. All that stuff matters. This has been the Donovan Mitchell era of the Cleveland Cavaliers. They haven’t won a championship yet. They haven’t gotten past the second round. But given where they were at the time that they acquired him, it has been successful. Now they gotta continue to take steps with him, right? They’ve got to find a way to get past the second round of the playoffs. Whenever his Cavs career is over, he has a chance to be the second best and second most impactful Cavalier ever, behind LeBron James. How could you possibly say that that’s a failure? How could you possibly classify that trade as anything but a success. Even with his limitations, even with the Cavs playoff failures to this point. When it’s all said and done, when his Cavs career is over, whenever that is, it’s going to be him and Kyrie Irving battling for that spot behind LeBron James as the second best and second most impactful cavalier. So no matter what happens, there’s a level of success that that has come with that trade that there there are no regrets from anybody in the front office and there should be no regrets from from any fans with with what the Cavs chose to do a couple of years ago with Donovan. He has been great for this organization in every way imaginable.
Ethan Sands: To Dave VPA’s point at the end of his statement not question, I do believe that this says more about the roster around Donovan Mitchell rather than Donovan Mitchell himself. Darius Garland and Evan Mobley not getting necessary reps in playoff games before Donovan Mitchell arrived doesn’t help them. Obviously they were in the play in before Donovan Mitchell arrived and that helps slightly, but not in the same capacity as a true playoff series. And Evan Mobley sure takes an All Star, second team, All NBA and Defensive Player of the Year leap, but the consistency is not there. Darius Garlett, second time being an All Star last season, still has not gotten back to fourth and I think the consistent portion stars do it every night. Yes, stars are reliable when the lights shine. The brightest stars can do it when their other star is not capable. And that’s part of what we’ve talked about on recent podcasts about Donovan Mitchell’s minutes. His usage being fatigued in the fourth quarter of a regular season game is because he’s shouldering too much of the load too early. And as a player who has dealt with a calf injury for both of the last two playoff series that they’ve been in, it’s not necessarily where the Cavs want to be. Especially when you talk about the productivity and the progression of Evan Mobley and Darius Garland to where they want and hope them to be for their careers. Obviously they’re not in their primes yet, but they need the Cavs need Darius and Evan to be great now.
Chris Fedor: And that’s a great point that you bring up too about, you know, stars and it not being a sometimes thing. They also just carry a different burden and some guys are capable of carrying that burden and some guys aren’t. I have my doubts at this point in time that if Donovan wasn’t around that the Cavs would have somebody else capable of Carrying that nightly burden because it’s a lot and it’s not for everybody.
Ethan Sands: All right, Chris, I appreciate you coming on and answering these fiery questions from our subtextors, maybe getting off track a little bit because we know with this podcast there’s nuance to everything. So we go with that.
Chris Fedor: I love that passion, though. I love the feistiness. The Cavs need to play with that passion for 48 minutes.
Ethan Sands: You think we should send some jerseys to so our subtexters?
Chris Fedor: Because we don’t know about the skill set of some of these subtexters. We know about the passion, we know about the competitiveness, we know about the toughness, but we just don’t know about the skill set.
Ethan Sands: I agree. And it is definitely something that you need. Maybe that would give them a different perspective of what it takes to play. Because I’ve seen a lot of comments around social media. These guys get paid how much money to play 35 minutes a night and can’t do it. Hey, I don’t know about you guys, but I know an 82 game season is a grind because I’m there at most practices most games. So if I’m doing it and I’m tired, can only imagine what the guy on the corner feeling. But enough from us and thank you guys for sending in your questions from our subtexters. So with all that being said, that’ll wrap up today’s episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. But remember to become a Cavs insider and interact with clips. Chris, me and Jimmy by subscribing to Subtext, not only can you have your name shouted out on the podcast, but you can also communicate with us on a daily basis. And even those that sent in questions that we didn’t get to today, we still talk to them and try to give the best answers that we can whenever we have the time to do so. And the only way you can have this communication with both me and Chris and also Jimmy Watkins against cleveland.com’s columnist is by signing up for a 14 day free trial or visiting cleveland.com Cavs and clicking on the blue bar at the top of the page. If you don’t like it, that’s fine. All you have to do is text the word stop. It’s easy, but we can tell you that the people who sign up stick around because this is the best way to get insider coverage on the Cavs from me, Chris and Jimmy. This isn’t just our podcast podcast, it’s your podcast. And the only way to have your voice heard is through subtext. Y’ all be safe. We out.