CLEVELAND, Ohio — In this episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast, Ethan Sands, Chris Fedor and Jimmy Watkins break down the growing concerns surrounding De’Andre Hunter’s fit with the Cavs.
Takeaways:
Hunter’s Performance Has Negatively Impacted the Team
De’Andre Hunter has failed to meet the significant expectations the Cavaliers had when they traded for him. Statistically, the team is demonstrably worse with him on the court, possessing a net rating of minus-0.8 when he plays versus plus-6.2 when he is off the floor. His struggles have been comprehensive, extending beyond poor shooting to include subpar defense, rebounding, and passing. Described as looking “joyless” while playing, Hunter’s offensive slump appears to be negatively affecting all other aspects of his game. He has not been the impactful player Cleveland envisioned, one who would make the departures of Caris LeVert and Georges Niang a distant memory. Instead, his underperformance has amplified the team’s challenges.
Locker Room Chemistry Was Underestimated
The Cavaliers appear to have miscalculated the impact of roster changes on team dynamics and on De’Andre Hunter personally. The trade that brought Hunter to Cleveland involved giving up key locker room presences in Georges Niang and Caris LeVert, a loss that is being felt more acutely this season amidst the team’s search for veteran leadership and urgency. Furthermore, the offseason departure of Ty Jerome, Hunter’s best friend, may have had a significant negative effect. Last season, Hunter lived with Jerome upon his arrival and thrived in his presence. The speakers suggest that losing this personal connection has contributed to his struggles to find comfort and consistency this year.
Hunter Is Reportedly Unhappy with His Role
There is a belief circulating around the NBA that De’Andre Hunter is unhappy with his situation in Cleveland, stemming largely from the coaching staff’s decision to move him out of the starting lineup and into a bench role. Despite having a conversation with head coach Kenny Atkinson in the offseason where he expressed his preference to start, he was moved to the second unit just six weeks into the season. This move, coupled with an inconsistent role in fourth-quarter closing lineups, is believed to have contributed to his visible frustration. This contrasts sharply with the joy and demonstrative energy he displayed last season, suggesting his current on-court struggles are tied to his dissatisfaction with his role.
Hunter’s Defensive Reputation Doesn’t Match His Performance
A significant part of Hunter’s appeal was his reputation as a versatile, physical, jumbo-sized wing defender, but his performance has not validated that perception. While his physical tools remain tantalizing, his defensive metrics are poor, placing him in the 20th percentile for defensive estimated plus-minus, comparable to players not known for their defense. A long-standing knock on Hunter is his tendency to lose focus and ball-watch when defending off the ball, a weakness that has been exacerbated this season. His physicality has also been questioned, often appearing as a reactionary response to frustration rather than a strategic effort to set a tone, representing a significant mis-evaluation of his defensive impact by the Cavaliers.
The Cavaliers Are Reluctant to Trade Him
Despite receiving multiple compelling trade offers for De’Andre Hunter, the Cavaliers’ front office does not want to move him. The organization has a long-standing interest in Hunter, dating back to his draft year, and they still believe he is a better player and shooter than he has shown. Their preference is to allow him time to work through his prolonged slump and find a rhythm in his new role off the bench. However, this reluctance is set against the practical reality that Hunter’s salary is the most logical contract to move if the team decides it needs to get under the second luxury tax apron to regain financial flexibility. The team’s direction in the coming weeks will likely determine if they stick with their investment or make a change.
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Transcript
NOTE: This transcript was generated by artificial intelligence and could contain misspellings and errors.
Ethan Sands: What up, Cavs Nation? I’m your host, Ethan Sands, and I’m back with another episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. And we are being blessed once again, joined by two of the best in the business, Chris Fedor, cleveland.com beat reporter for the Cleveland Cavaliers, and he is already out in Philadelphia. And me and Jimmy Watkins are back in Cleveland holding down the fort in the meanwhile. Today we’re here to talk about the state of the Cleveland Cavaliers, but a particular piece De’Andre Hunter, a player who the Cavs believe was going to be the missing piece for this team. And as we mentioned on yesterday’s podcast, that could have been because of a potential foresight of seeing the Boston Celtics again in the playoffs and how he would fit into that lineup, those rotations and the physicality of the game, but also what he means to a playoff environment, the ability to defend at that level, the offensive creation, especially when plays break down. Chris I want to kind of take a rewind perspective to start today’s podcast. De’Andre Hunter is struggling or has struggled over the last month and a half or so to start the season. Though he was a player that the Cavs were relying on, he was a reliable piece as a starting unit. But I’m trying to figure out and put together an understanding of where the Cavs sit with De’Andre Hunter, where he is and what your thoughts are to encapsulate his start of the season.
Chris Fedor: He just hasn’t been good enough. That’s the only way that you can put it. This is a guy that the Cavs traded for at the deadline last year. They gave up some key pieces. Forget the draft capital. George Niang was a leader. He was a voice behind the the scenes. Caris Lavert was obviously, you know, one of their six men, one of their reliable bench guys, somebody who had a relationship with Kenny Atkinson. Kenny Atkinson knew how to use Keras, how to deploy him offensively and defensively. So even though like the future of George Niang was a question and the future of Caris Lavert was a question and sort of the on court deficiencies of George were obvious. There’s a reason why the night that the Cavs acquired De’Andre Hunter, there was a feeling in the locker room of loss. Oh my gosh. What did we just give up? Like, yeah, we understand the talent of De’Andre, we understand his versatility, we understand that he’s having a career year with the Atlanta Hawks. But look at what we just gave up. We need an opportunity to process those emotions first before starting to think about all the different ways that De’Andre can impact us. So when I say that the Cavs gave up some important pieces, yeah, they did. And I know a lot of people look at it and say Kerris was on an expiring contract and who knows if he was going to be back. And George Niang, how much did we make fun of George because of some of those poses that he had getting back on defense and flat on his back with his legs up in the air and the defensive deficiencies and all those things. Yes, but locker room dynamics are delicate. Leadership is important. It’s almost invaluable. And the Cavs are feeling those absences and they’re feeling those absences even more because the, the trade for De’Andre was always supposed to be okay. What they lost in that trade was always going to be concealed by what they gained. And De’Andre was supposed to make Caris LeVert an afterthought and George Niang a distant memory and all the draft capital. Who cares about that given the situation that the Cavs are in? But De’Andre hasn’t done that. He hasn’t played to that level. He hasn’t been the guy that the Cavs traded for. He hasn’t been the guy that Kenny Atkinson said was the off season mvp. He hasn’t been the guy that Kenny Atkinson believed deserve to start from the very beginning of the season because of the injury to Max Druce. And the numbers point to that with De’Andre Hunter on the floor, the cavalry, worse basketball team. If you look at it statistically with De’Andre on the floor, they have a net rating of minus 0.8. With him off the floor, that increases to plus 6.2. So there are about 5 points per 100 possessions better when De’Andre, it’s off the floor. And it wasn’t supposed to be like that. That wasn’t supposed to be the case. It’s not what anybody expected coming into this year. So I think the Cavs will tell you everybody inside the organization will say De’Andre’s got to be better, he’s got to make shots. He’s got to be more focused on the defensive end of the floor. If he’s not making shots, if he’s not providing an impact offensively, that he’s got to do all these other little things that, that he’s not doing. He just looks like a guy who is joyless playing basketball right now. And the fact that he is struggling so much on the offensive end of the floor, where he’s made his mark in the NBA, the Fact that he’s struggling so much with his shot and his scoring, that’s carrying over to the other aspects of his game. He’s not defending, he’s not rebounding. His passing has been brutal. Yeah, I mean, I think there are legitimate questions about is he going to be here beyond the trade deadline. But before any of that, the Cavs are just looking at it, saying he’s got to play better because we need him to play better. And there’s a reason why we traded for him last deadline because we thought he was going to be an asset. We thought that the things he brings to the table, theoretically we’re going to fit alongside the core four. We’re going to fit the kind of player that, that we needed in the locker room. And this year it just hasn’t been like that, especially since the Cavs made the decision to bring him off the bench. That was supposed to make him more comfortable. That was supposed to give him more freedom, more touches, more shot opportunities, more usage, all that kind of stuff. And he’s had two of his worst games in the last two weeks or so, and it just hasn’t been good enough.
Jimmy Watkins: I think the Cavs underestimated locker room dynamics on two fronts. I think they underestimated it with the original trade. Getting rid of George and Kerris for De’Andre Hunter didn’t show up as much last year. Although maybe you could argue that in the playoffs during that Pacer series, maybe they, one of those guys could have helped stem the tide, given arousing speech or at least just been a steadying presence, called some people out that maybe need to be called out. And certainly this year, you guys did a whole podcast on that a couple weeks ago. Certainly this year you’re missing that type of presence. And it’s, it shows up every other night. It’s. It’s the come and go and it’s the post game comments about, well, there’s always so much time left. There’s always, we know what we can be. It’s like, no, someone, someone needs to step in. And Max Sch could have filled this role too. He normally does when he’s in the lineup. It’s different when you’re injured. Somebody’s gonna say, screw all that. No, this needs to be fixed now. This is, this is urgent. This is. The urgency is the thing that they’ve been lacking the whole year. That’s something that can be created within locker. Kenny Atkinson, we can criticize him for not being able to create that. That’s warranted. But the NBA Is a. Is in many ways a player led league coach has to have a connection between himself in the locker room. It really, really helps to have those veteran guys to play the go between in those situations. I also think over the summer they may have miscalculated how big of an impact Ty Jerome’s exit might have had on De’Andre Hunter here. Think about this. De’Andre Hunter got here last year, basically had like one practice before the playoffs and that’s the best he’s ever looked. Yeah, it’s the best he’s ever looked with the team. Perhaps in part because he was hanging out with his best friend all the time and in many cases playing next to his best friend all the time. Even, even if it wasn’t going that well, I just feel like there were fewer. You certainly saw signs of De’Andre’s effort waxing and waning. I remember having the conversation last year about like is this guy really defend the defensive player that they say he is?
Chris Fedor: Right.
Jimmy Watkins: Like that’s part of the miscalculation. He’s kind of an if then guy. Like if the shot’s falling, then you can see him ramp it up on the other end.
Ethan Sands: Timmy made some really good points to his point. At the beginning of the tenure of De’Andre Hunter in Cleveland, he was legitimately staying with Ty Jerome as he was trying to find a place in Cleveland. So not only were they hanging out with each other, but they were back like they were in Virginia winning the championship.
Chris Fedor: Legitimate roommates.
Ethan Sands: Correct. Right next to each other for the beginning portion of his tenure with the Cavs. The other portion of this is that I believe. Sure, it might have been evident that the Cavs needed to go away from De’Andre Hunter in the starting lineup, but him next to the core four still had been successful just in spurts. And last season, especially in the regular season before the playoffs. We had talked about that the Cavs and Kenny Atkinson needed to go to that unit more. Here’s why. Due to LineUp data from NBA.com Donovan Mitchell, Jared Allen, Darius Garland, Evan Mobley and De’Andre Hunter in the 2024, 2025 regular season played 10 games together. They played just 39 minutes in those 10 games together. They had a net rating of 18.5 per 100 possessions. The better portion of this was the defensive rating of 98.7 this season that that same unit, the 2025, 2026 version, has played just five games together. 49 minutes on the floor together. Obviously a longer stretch with the starting unit, but this net rating is 20.6 per 100 possessions. It’s better than what it was. Sure, the Defensive rating is 103.5 and it’s a little bit higher than what it was to the point of Jimmy saying that his defense fluxes and wanes and we don’t necessarily know what we’re going to get on every given night from De’Andre Hunter on that end of the floor. But the offense, also upticked to 124.1, has an offensive rating per 100 possessions. So I think there is a balance to this. Right? Obviously you have him as a six man, you have him having more of the ball in his hands, you give him more of a scoring role, you give him more isolation opportunities. Kenny Akinson talked recently in a post game press conference about getting him more ato. Sometimes they work, sometimes they don’t. Just trying to get him more looks. But there’s still a need to evaluate this unit together, especially when you talk about closing units of the fourth quarter because it could potentially be the best unit on the floor, even if you’re looking towards the playoffs. And that’s again, where this conversation began with De’Andre Hunter in the trade for George Diang and Karis Lavert was that he was going to impact winning in the play playoffs and had a better build, a better fit for those kinds of contests.
Chris Fedor: I will say that there is a feeling around the NBA that De’Andre Hunter is unhappy in Cleveland. And part of why he is unhappy is because he was moved out of the starting lineup. You know, there was this conversation in the off season between De’Andre and Kenny and one of the things that that Kenny said is that this off season he wanted to make it a point to get to know De’Andre better, De’Andre the player, De’Andre the person, because he just didn’t have that same amount of time because De’Andre got here in February and the schedule was so jam packed and condensed in March is always brutal for the Cavs. So Kenny made it a point to go out to Los angeles and see De’Andre and talk to De’Andre and spend time with De’Andre. And one of the things that Kenny asked De’Andre was, hey, do you prefer to start or come off the bench? And De’Andre told him then that his preference was to start. And I think there’s some wonder from De’Andre and people close to De’Andre about like, why did that change after just six weeks of the regular season? Like, what did I do so wrong that you pulled me out of the starting lineup after just six weeks and you went back to Dean Wade now, you can sit there and you could say whatever you want to say about that, but there are always feelings involved when you make those kinds of delicate, lineup related decisions. And Kenny mentioned why he did it. He said part of it was we needed more scoring balance. We weren’t getting anything from the bench. It’s the second least productive bench in the entire NBA. It was at the time that they made that decision. And he said, hey, look, we think with the way that Darius is coming around, with the way that he’s feeling better physically, we think that we have enough in this starting group. We’ve got to find a way to get a little bit more consistency, stability and reliability in terms of the scoring department coming off the bench. And De’Andre is an obvious way to do that. You change out De’Andre for Dean Wade and that theoretically should boost your production off the bench. But there is a belief around the NBA that, you know, De’Andre was not overly thrilled about that particular decision that Kenny Atkinson made. There is a belief around the NBA that De’Andre and people close to him are not thrilled about the fact that De’Andre is not a consistent member of the closing lineup for the Cavs. The times that he’s in there in the fourth quarter, the times that he’s in there in crunch time, it’s been sporadic. And I think you just, if you watch De’Andre, you kind of feel that, right, that he’s not enjoying this season the way that he did last year. Think about last year where De’Andre came to the Cavs and he was this quiet dude and he was a little bit of an introvert. And then he is playing alongside Ty Jerome and he’s playing on this team that is rolling and he’s got an opportunity to play in the playoffs again and he comes up with this three point celebration to be really, really demonstrative. That was like a different version of De’Andre that, that showed the joy that he was having playing on this team in this environment. He talked about the sacrifice that that players were making so that they were all like aligned with one goal and they were all, they were all believing that each one of them had a specific role and a specific responsibility toward the CAVS being this 64 win regular season juggernaut. You know what I mean? You just don’t see those moments from De’Andre this year. You haven’t seen those. You haven’t seen that three point celebration where he’s swinging his three fingers against his leg and stuff like that. You just sense a little bit more frustration. And yeah, I think part of that is his struggles. He thinks he’s a better player than this. He believes that he’s a better shooter than this. And if you’re not playing to the level or to the standard that you have set for yourself throughout the course of your career, you’re not going to have a lot of fun. Shooting slumps aren’t fun for anybody, especially when you feel like you’re putting in the work behind the scenes, you’re getting there early, you’re staying late, and you’re just not seeing the rewards out there on the floor. So I think that’s contributing to this fact that he’s not all that happy. He’s not enjoying basketball to the same level that he did last year. But I also think, like I said, there is a belief around the NBA that the decision that was made about a month ago has contributed a little bit to this as well.
Jimmy Watkins: The same way you say the shooting slump is, is makes him unhappy, that also creates the lineup change. Like you’re right, you’re playing time is sporadic. Your play is sporadic. Those two things are directly related. And it’s like the Cavs spent the entire summer I would argue the Cavs main goal this summer other than next step of Evan Mobley, which you missed that one too. But the main goal besides that was figure out how to integrate De’Andre Hunter, fly out to himself, see what he likes. They gassed him up during the preseason just the same way they did Ty Jerome last year. I expected a huge leap from him. Biggest take I missed all year. Was I one of my bold predictions that he’d be an All Star this year? Whoops. Whoops. Thought that would pay off. Didn’t. But the gear they gear the the whole summer around you around maximizing you and you didn’t bring it to start the season. We want to talk about the lineup data and why are they this the lineup data is telling us one thing and the cavs aren’t keeping De’Andre Hunter in the starting lineup because he gets lost. He gets lost in the offensive shuffle playing with all those guys and then they lose him on the other end. The offense affects the defense because he’s not in a rhythm. He’s not getting the touches he feels like he needs to get run. I get it. It’s hard. But you’re on a really good team now. You’re on a really good team. You’re. You have to adapt to them, not the other way around. And like frankly, this team that you’re if you can’t be happy here, where let’s again remember where this team was when he first got here. This was fricking basketball Disneyland last year when the Cavs traded for De’Andre Hunter and they broke that up a little. They broke that locker room up knowing there’s a risk to this. There’s. There could be an adjustment period for De’Andre. We could lose leadership in the locker room like this right here. This conversation we’ve been having for the last 20 minutes. This was the fear. This was the fear. But if you, if you can’t be happy on a team like this, like, where are you going to be happy? Like, I guess it’s possible you could just be more happy on a team like the Hawks. Like you were just on getting your numbers and losing in the first round every year. But like that’s not a really good reflection of you and your standing in the league. I get it. It is hard what he’s going through right now. And when you’re going through a shooting slump of this degree, this has been a season long dip for De’Andre Hunter. I have a little bit more sympathy for when the effort shows up in other areas. But like you’re a role player on this team. That’s the non negotiable. You have to bring this every single night. Their net rating is not great with De’Andre Pointer on the floor. He’s their second worst on off defensive rating guy. Yes, Darius than him. And that’s the last thing that I think the Cavs anticipated when they traded for this guy. Like he’s supposed to be. Think about this. You’re watching De’Andre Hunter. He’s massive. He’s got this crazy wingspan. He’s a jumbo size wing. Do you feel like watching him that other teams feel him? Do you feel like he’s moving bodies?
Ethan Sands: I would argue that he’s probably the most physical player that the Cavs have and that might be an alarming factor.
Jimmy Watkins: But even that he, och, he is.
Chris Fedor: Not more physical than Dean Wade. He is not more physical.
Ethan Sands: Okay, okay, okay, okay. People who are is available. Let’s go there. Let’s start there. Okay. Dean Wade is an extremely big and physical body. You’re absolutely right. But when he’s not there, that role goes to De’Andre Hunter. And Chris, we’ve had this conversation on this podcast. De’Andre is one of the guys that kind of took over the George Yang role who was like, if you’re going to shove me, I’m going to shove you back. Not the leadership in the locker room. Jimmy. I see you, Chantier.
Jimmy Watkins: No no, no. I just don’t care about that stuff because there’s two ways to interpret that. You could be setting a tone or you could be losing your cool and letting the other team get in his head. And When I watch De’Andre Hunter do that, that’s what I think is happening. De’Andre Hunter shoves as a reactionary approach not to. I need to do this. My team needs a spark. No, he is reacting. Someone has gotten under his skin, and this is a pretty significant fit. Mis evaluation on the Cavs part from the flowy offense with a guy who, man, does. What does De’Andre Hunter do when he doesn’t have the ball? Not a ton. I could tell you tell whether De’Andre Hunter’s supposed to get the ball on a play. Every time. Every time a possession. You could see him just standing there in the corner. A lot of the time. Nothing is. Nothing is absolute. But I feel like he’s. He does a lot of ball watching on offense, a lot of standing. And you know what? He’s. He’s a good shooter. So just by existing, he’s a floor spacer. That. That matters. That matters. But from that to the role that they’ve tried to give him this year, which was, again, the role that you gave him last year was the same role he had in Atlanta. And it worked pretty well. And it worked pretty well. Was De’Andre Hunter complaining about his role last year in Atlanta when he was a sixth man of the year candidate? I don’t know.
Ethan Sands: Yeah.
Jimmy Watkins: Okay. Well, then if he was, that’s part of the fitness evaluation, too. Why do you want to trade for a guy who’s complaining when he’s having the best year of his career? That’s a red flag for the situation we’re currently in.
Ethan Sands: Complaining is not the right word, but a trust factor of knowing that he was not going to touch the ball on any given possession. That’s part of the reason that De’Andre felt the need to be a score first player in Atlanta, because there wasn’t a trust factor of if I give the ball away, am I ever going to see it, even though I ain’t.
Jimmy Watkins: Playing with Trey Young. Buddy, that’s the team you’re on. Now, you play with two guards who are not like Trae Young, but two guards who operate in a similar way, like high usage. They get the ball when you say they get the ball. And you got to be happy about that because you’re like the fifth best player on the team. Okay?
Ethan Sands: And that’s why. And that’s why the bench unit makes more sense for him. Jimmy, that you’re making it exact sense. You’re making exact sense. But the other portion of this, and I want to go back to the physicality and frustration portion because I think it’s a good point and I think it’s a double edged sword, it can flow over to frustration, but it also can be something that the Cavs need. And we’ve admitted this on this podcast, they do not have enough fiery, gutsy players. They do not have enough physical, mental toughness players. They don’t have that. And De’Andre Hunter has come into this season, said it over the summer that this Cavs team needed to be more tough, that this team needed to actively go out of its way to make sure the teams weren’t going to try and push it around. So I don’t think necessarily it’s frustration all the time. Can it be. Can it also just be frustration with the player that he’s going up against? It can, but I think there’s multiple layers to that. And knowing on the floor at any given time that you have to set a tone because nobody else is going to do it, can also come off as why are you doing it all the time there. There’s a balance that De’Andre Hunter needs to find in that. Definitely.
Chris Fedor: I talked to him in the locker room in Minnesota after he had the altercation with, with Rudy Gobert. And the question that I asked him specifically, I said, were you trying to get the team to wake up considering the way that they were playing? Were you trying to set a tone of physicality against that caliber opponent? And he said no. He said, Rudy does his little things and no. And I was just reacting to that. Basically.
Jimmy Watkins: I’m going to give you a pass on that one because everybody seems to hate Rudy when they step on the court with him. He does a lot of that dumb stuff. And when the thing where he had his hands up and he kept his arms out and ran into De’Andre and.
Chris Fedor: Then he walked right toward him with his hands up.
Jimmy Watkins: Very silly. But you know how I would love to see De’Andre Hunter practice some toughness. Why don’t you play defense hard all the time, whether you’re shooting well or not? Like that’s. I just feel like when we talk about the Cavs so many times, we misunderstand what we’re talking about when we’re talking about toughness. I don’t care if they push anybody ever. I just want them to play better through adversity. I really don’t care. Like, defense requires More physicality. I get that. But like, I would be. I’d be thrilled if they let somebody push one of their teammates, held them back, let the other team get the technical foul call on them, shoot the free throw and then stay engaged on defense after a couple of misses in a row, that’s what I want to see toughness wise out of this team.
Ethan Sands: Can I propose a counterpoint for the defense? Because we can all agree he’s been bad defensively this year. I think he’s worse off defensively when he’s not going body to body, when he’s not being physical with the defender, when he’s off the ball, that’s when he’s at his worst because he’s, as Jimmy said, on offense is a ball watcher. And I specifically asked him about this. How do you stop ball watching offensively and defensively? He said it’s a focus thing, it’s a mentality thing and he needs to be better at that. And when it comes to when he’s going up against an opponent like Julius Randle, who he’s more physical with, where an opponent who he knows he has to be body to body with or blowing up a screen or all these things, that’s when he’s most effective. But we can all admit when he’s off the ball, there are things that he needs to do better and, and that especially because he’s not the primary defender for most of these games and he’s not the number one defender perimeter wise for the Cavs. He’s usually stuck in the corner guarding someone who’s a shooter and running around and that makes life more difficult for him. So I think again, there’s twofold to this. He’s better off when he’s being physical defensively, but when he’s off the ball, you can see the lapses mentally that allow a opposing offenses to take advantage of that. And that’s something that can’t happen, especially in playoff series.
Chris Fedor: Yes, that. That has been part of the De’Andre Hunter scouting report for years. That thing that he gets lost off the ball, that he loses focus off the ball, that he doesn’t communicate at the level that you would expect of somebody who has built this reputation, probably from college, that has just followed him into the NBA as this elite defensive player. But the numbers haven’t supported that. And this has been the scouting report, this has been the conversation about De’Andre in saying that it has gone to a bad level this year, it has gone to an even worse level this year. It is his defensive Numbers have never been this. They just haven’t. If you look at. Again, I bring up these stats all the time, but estimated plus minus from dunks and threes, he is in the 20th percentile as a defensive player in defensive estimated plus minus. And to give you a general idea of who else is in that neighborhood, the esteemed Luke Kennard, Jamal Murray, old rundown, can’t play anymore. Chris Paul, Darius Garland, Bub Carrington of the Washington Wizards, Malik Monk of the Sacramento Kings. Like all guys that you would expect to be in that range. Not somebody that the Cavs have talked about in, in a different kind of tone and not somebody that the Cavs. You know, it’s not the only reason why they went out and got De’Andre, but defense was his versatility, his impact at that end of the floor, his potential for physicality and toughness at that end of the floor was part of the equation of going to get De’Andre. And that just, it just hasn’t been the case. And it’s never, it’s never been to this level. It’s never been this bad defensively.
Jimmy Watkins: I think part of the reason why the reputation has followed him is that the tools, the defensive tools are still so tantalizing. He’s huge. He, he’s so long. And when he’s engaged, you can see on the ball that he can be an issue for really good players. It’s just. Story of the Cav season, consistency in.
Chris Fedor: Saying all of this. I had multiple sources say that the Cavs don’t want to trade him. Like, they don’t want to have to get to that point where they feel like they have to move him. They want him to work his way out of this prolonged shooting slump. They still believe in him. They believe that he’s a better shooter than what he has shown. They believe he’s a better player than what he has shown. And they’ve gotten multiple offers for De’Andre. One of them that, that I believe is actually quite compelling. But. But to this point, they have turned them down. Now it’s only January 13th and who knows what the team is going to look like in two weeks from now. The stretch that they have coming up is very, very important. They could be done with the next three games and then be a.500 team again. They could two against Philly and then one against OKC. Or they could find a way to, to win these games and surprise people and tap into the form that they showed over the weekend, at least offensively against Minnesota. And then maybe the vibes and the Feeling around the team is a little bit different. So I think they’re still kind of assessing where they want to go at the trade deadline, where they may need to go at the trade deadline. Do they have some kind of motivation to try and get out of the second apron and start dumping? Like, all of those things I would say are in play. I don’t think they’ve made up their mind of which way they’re going to go. But I can tell you, my sources tell me that they don’t want to move De’Andre. De’Andre is somebody that they have wanted for seven years. This is somebody that they were high on when he was coming out of Virginia. There was belief inside the organization that that draft night, they were going to leave with De’Andre Hunter and Ty Jerome. Somehow, some way, there was at least a thought that that was a possibility for them. And then all of a sudden, the team trades in front of them. De’Andre goes four. They go with Darius Garland. It’s not something that they were losing sleep over, but it tells you just how much interest they’ve had in De’Andre. And as his career progressed in Atlanta, the Cavs checked in on De’Andre. Hey, we like him. If you’re motivated to move him at some point, remember us, think about us. So this is a guy that they have liked for, for years, and I think it’s going to take a lot for them to change that view of things. And I think they want to continue to see what it looks like with him coming off the bench, can he find his comfort? Can he get into a rhythm? Can he start making some shots before they have to make any kind of determination on that? And the other thing is this. Like, when they made the trade last year at the deadline, they essentially knew they were willing to say, this is our roster moving forward because we understand the salary cap limitations, we understand the restrictions, we understand the potential penalties, but he’s worth it. So we’re willing to do that. This is our core, this is our team. And yeah, we can make these small moves around the margins, but this is essentially our team. And they were willing to do that because they believed in him that much. And I don’t sense yet that they’ve had a trash, a drastic turnabout at this point. Anyway, again, talk to me in two weeks, talk to me in three weeks, talk to me closer to the deadline. But as of right now, that’s the feeling that I have.
Jimmy Watkins: Flip side of that is that De’Andre Hunter’s salary is almost exactly the number they need. If they were to dump it to get under the second aprim. So if you come to the conclusion that and it’s hard to do that in mid January, early February too. But if you come to the conclusion or even have the inkling that big picture change might be warranted in the near future, that’s a neat, tidy way to get under the second apron. If you and by the way, this is you trade De’Andre Hunter and you take nothing in return, you will get draft capital for De’Andre Hunter.
Chris Fedor: He’s still that’s what the fans have to understand.
Jimmy Watkins: You will get absolutely nothing back player wise but draft capital. Like De’Andre Hunter, as poorly as he’s played this year, he still plays a premium position. He still has a premium skill set. Clearly as the Cavs are getting calls like there are still teams that believe in this guy, you’ll get draft capital. It’ll probably be a pretty heavily protected first round pick if that. But you’ll get draft capital or you.
Chris Fedor: Get somebody with a contract that is closer to expiring.
Jimmy Watkins: Sure, that too. But if you decide that change is necessary and you want to be flexible with the way you rearrange this roster, that’s an easy way to say okay, we we are undoing that trade. Can’t get George and Kerris back all at once now and and the pick swaps on swaps whatever whatever. The second rounders can’t undo the whole thing. But if you decide this is the piece that doesn’t fit with a pretty nifty piece of business without much headache, you can get under the second apron and then have every move available to you again when it’s time to get really creative.
Ethan Sands: I also just want to make this point before I wrap up here. Cavs fans who are looking for the Cavs to make a trade to get Ty Jerome and or George Diane back needs also understand neither of those players have played this season due to injuries. They have been sidelined the entire year. When it comes to the De’Andre Hunter situation, it’s a pride thing, right? The organization thought that this was going to be their starting small forward. They thought that De’Andre Hunter was going to be the missing piece for them to make a championship caliber run. That’s hard to come back from. But I also have to make this point because we talked so much about the shooting. I want to list out his stats from this season through 35 games and 23 starts. He’s averaging 27.2 minutes per game game shooting 42.7% from the field on 11.2 attempts per game. That is the second worst of his entire career dating back to his rookie season. He’s also shooting 30.6% from 3 point range on 5.5 attempts per the season. Last year he shot 40.5% from the 3 point range on 6.1 attempts per game. That 30.6% from deep is the worst 3 point percentage he shot in his entire career. So there’s difficulty to this and there’s also still belief while the struggles are occurring that De’Andre Hunter can and will still be a piece that they’ll need in the playoffs, at least at this point.
Chris Fedor: Yeah, I think the other thing that’s important to point out here is that because De’Andre has been such a negative on defense, in order to offset that, he needs to be so much more impactful on offense. And then you have to ask yourself, can he be as impactful as you need him to be offensively because of the defense that he’s playing? It’s kind of like the whole Trae Young conversation. Trae Young. If you’re going to deal with that level of terrible defense, he needs to be a dynamic difference maker on the offensive end of the floor basically every single night. And the margin for error is so small. And it’s kind of similar to conversations that we’ve had in the past about Darius Garland as well. Like any kind of step back or slippage on the offensive end of the floor, when you’re this kind of defender, or at least you’ve been this kind of defender, you, you’re going to feel that more. And you can’t mask some of these things the way that maybe you have been able to in the past. And I think that’s part of the reason why the Cavs are feeling it so much, because the offense has taken a slight step back and if you look at the numbers, you’re like, oh my God. Well, it’s, it’s not that drastic. It is compared to throughout his career, but overall the numbers aren’t that drastic. But then you combine that step back offensively that he just can’t afford when playing defense the way that he’s defended throughout the course of this year.
Ethan Sands: All right, guys, thank you again for joining me. And with all that being said, that’ll wrap up today’s episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. But remember to become a Cavs insider and interact with Chris, me and Jimmy by subscribing to some text. We’ll be texting you guys through throughout the games this week, especially with them being on the road. So the only way you can get these insights in the conversation on a daily basis with all of us is signing up for a 14 day free trial or visiting cleveland.com Cavs and clicking on the blue bar at the top of the page. If you don’t like it, that’s fine. All you have to do is text the word stop. It’s easy, but we can take that. The people who sign up stick around because this is the best way to get insider coverage on the Cavs from me, Chris and Jimmy. This isn’t just our podcast, it’s your podcast. And the only way to have your voice heard is through subtext. Y’ all be safe. We out.