CLEVELAND, Ohio — In this episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast, Ethan Sands, Chris Fedor and Jimmy Watkins react to the Cavaliers’ jarring 136-104 loss to the Oklahoma City Thunder and what it revealed about Cleveland’s standing in the contender hierarchy.
Takeaways:
The “Championship Habits” Gap Is More Damaging Than Injuries
The panel asserted that the loss was not defined by injuries, despite the absence of Darius Garland and Sam Merrill. They pointed out that the Thunder were also significantly shorthanded, missing key players like Jalen Williams and Isaiah Hartenstein. The true difference between the teams was described as a gap in “habits,” “maturity,” and “identity.” The Thunder, as defending champions, play with a consistency and standard that the Cavs have failed to build. Donovan Mitchell’s post-game emphasis on “habits” was seen as a telling sign of frustration, indicating that the team’s problems are rooted in a lack of mental toughness and a failure to establish a winning process, rather than just a lack of available talent.
The Team Suffers From a Complete Lack of Identity on Both Ends
The Cavaliers’ performance against the Thunder exposed a team without a clear identity. Offensively, they were plagued by inefficiency, shooting under 25% from 3-point range and committing 21 turnovers. This inconsistency has become a season-long theme. Defensively, the identity they built in previous years has crumbled. The podcast highlighted that the Cavs are the worst team in the league at defending the three-point line, a weakness OKC exploited by making 23 threes. The speakers noted that the team’s rotations are slow, communication is poor, and the overall effort doesn’t match that of elite defensive teams, leading to a sense of being a “bad hang” to watch.
Key Players Are Being Outperformed and Outmatched
Direct comparisons between Cavs players and their Thunder counterparts revealed significant performance gaps. The panel contrasted Shai Gilgeous-Alexander’s “S-tier” superstar play with Donovan Mitchell’s, noting SGA’s ability to adapt and control any game. More critically, they positioned Chet Holmgren as the player the Cavs “hoped Evan Mobley would be right now,” pointing to Holmgren’s confident jump shot and on-court intensity. Mobley, by contrast, has not developed into the consistent offensive focal point the team needs, particularly when other stars are out. This underperformance from key members of the “Core Four” has led to the team being less than the sum of its expensive parts.
Donovan Mitchell Was Snubbed as an All-Star Starter
The panelists strongly argued that Donovan Mitchell deserved to be an All-Star starter over Jalen Brunson. They cited Mitchell’s career-best numbers and his immense value to the Cavs, evidenced by the team’s dramatic net rating swing when he is on versus off the court — an impact on par with MVP candidates like Nikola Jokic and Giannis Antetokounmpo. Brunson’s selection was criticized due to his standing as one of the league’s worst individual defenders. While acknowledging that the snub doesn’t diminish Mitchell’s legacy, the discussion highlighted the frustration of Mitchell performing at an elite level to keep a mediocre and inconsistent team afloat, only to be overlooked by voters.
Frustration Is Mounting and Doubts About the Future Are Growing
A sense of hopelessness and frustration is permeating the team and its observers. The podcast hosts predicted that head coach Kenny Atkinson is nearing a breaking point, evidenced by his “testy” attitude in a recent press conference, and may soon publicly vent his frustration over the team’s lack of consistent effort. The speakers questioned whether last year’s regular-season success was just “lightning in a bottle” and expressed skepticism that the team can simply flip a switch for the playoffs. With no easy fixes available for a second-apron team, the Cavs are left clinging to the hope that returning injured players can salvage a season defined by inconsistency and underachievement.
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Transcript
NOTE: This transcript was generated by artificial intelligence and could contain misspellings and errors.
Ethan Sands: What up, Cavs Nation? I’m your host, Ethan Sands, and I’m back with another episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. And joining me Today, Chris Fedor, cleveland.com Cavs beat reporter and Jimmy Watkins, cleveland.com columnist and we’re coming to you guys after the CAVS. From latest loss 136-104 to the OKC Thunder, the reigning champions, and they prove just how far the Cavs are from truly being contenders in the NBA. The Cavs came out and were not able to do anything that they had planned, particularly on the offensive end. They finished the game under 25% from deep for the fourth time. They’ve lost all four of those contests, and last season the Cavs only shot 25% or worse on three occasions. And that’s saying the Cavs still have 38 games to play. The Cavs converted just 47.2% of their shots at the rim as well. 3rd percentile the Cavs did their best to get to the rim because they went 17 of 36 on shots in the restricted area, 90th percentile for attempts. So we know that this was Cleveland’s 24th starting lineup. We know that the Cavs were going up against one of the best defenses in the NBA in the OKC Thunder. But guys, offensively, there’s still so many questions, even when they don’t have Darius Garland and Sam Merrill out. I think we’re past the point of making excuses for the injuries that the Cavs are dealing with throughout the year.
Chris Fedor: I honestly don’t think they’re excuses. I think they’re explanations. I I do think they help explain in part why the Cavs are where they are, in part why the Cavs have the record that they do. But I’m not going to look at those in today’s game. If we’re talking about today’s game Monday afternoon against the Thunder, I’m not going to look at that. Because Oklahoma City didn’t have Jalen Williams, their third leading scorer and their All Star, their sidekick to Shay Gilgis Alexander. They didn’t have Isaiah Hartenstein. Their $90 million starting center, Alex Caruso only played the first half. He did not play in the second half because he injured himself. Jalen Williams, the other Jalen Williams who got the spot start in place of Hartenstein to kind of combat the Cavs too big front court. He played eight minutes, suffered an injury, didn’t play in the second half. OKC had like eight playable guys in the second half of this game. So Yeah, I mean, I think you can look at it and say Darius Garland’s playmaking would have helped. Darius Garland probably would have steadied the offense. And maybe they don’t have 21 turnovers to 20 assists if Darius is playing. Maybe things are a little bit easier on Donovan Mitchell. Maybe things are a little bit easier on Evan Mobley. And you can sit there and you can say, well, Sam Merrill might have loosened up that defense because of his movement, because of the threat that he is, because of the attention that he commands from a defense, because of his shooting reputation. But I don’t want to hear that because I don’t think today’s game specifically was about that. I don’t think it was about any number of excuses or explanations that people have used to talk about the Cavs in the first half of the season. And I don’t think it was about an unfavorable whistle, which sometimes when you play against Oklahoma City, you kind of expect and you kind of lament and you kind of complain about. Right. I think it was about habits. I think it was about standards. I think it was about maturity. I think it was about identity. Oklahoma City and Kenny Atkinson said it after the game. Donovan Mitchell said it after the game. They both said that’s why they’re champions. Yeah, they’re champions because they build championship habits. They forged those championship habits over the last couple of years. They look like champions, they act like champions, they carry themselves like champions, they play like champions, they compete like champions. The Cavs don’t do those things. They don’t have an identity. They play an immature brand of basketball. They haven’t matched their own standard that they supposedly set for themselves coming into this year. And yes, again, there are explanations for that. But in today’s game, you could just see the difference between the two teams. And it wasn’t about talent. It wasn’t about who was missing. It was about the little things that make champions champions. And the Cavs aren’t those things.
Jimmy Watkins: Things.
Chris Fedor: And it’s fair to wonder if they’re ever going to become those things.
Jimmy Watkins: Yeah, that’s why they’re champions is all well and good to say. What’s the second half of that part? That’s why you’re not. Yes, that’s why you’re not champions. To take one admittedly key part of the Caps puzzle out seems like it crumbles. It’s more like a Jenga, a Jenga puzzle than it is a flat puzzle piece for. Okay, well, we’ll look for something to be A placeholder for that. I was cycling on cleaning the glass today, looking for some version of the Thunder. That is a bad lineup this season. It’s okay. There’s no Jalen Williams. Nope, they’re awesome. No Jalen Williams and no Isaiah Hardenstein. Nope, they’re awesome. I mean, Shai is a studying force. I get it. There’s another thing that you want to say. The difference between these teams, Shay Gilgeous Alexander and Donovan Mitchell, it is levels to this. Jay Gildous Alexander is an S tier superstar in this league capable of shifting his game however he needs to to win any, win any type of game, win any type of way, do whatever needs to be done, and you can’t really knock him off this game, off of his game. Donovan Mitchell, a lot on his plate today. Darius Garland is a huge pressure valve for him and the Thunder are uniquely suited to defend him. Lou Dort gives him all kinds of trouble and they have help defenders galore. They have one of the best rim protectors in the NBA, on and on and on. But you didn’t get it done. Shay Gilrich Alexander got it done. There’s context in there, but end of the day, that’s. That’s what it is. That’s why Donovan Mitchell is somewhere between the 10th and 15th best player in the NBA. That’s why Shay is somewhere between, I don’t know, six and one. Six is his floor. Chet Ohmgren, Evan Mobley, kind of same deal here. I think Chad Ohmgren is the player that the Cavs hoped Evan Mobley would be right now. The jump shot. Chad Holmer’s jump shot is real. Evan Mobley’s jump shot doesn’t look so real right now. Many other differences therein. Chad Holmgren seems to have this, whatever you want to say, part of a champion warrior type mentality. Chad Holmgren is yelling. You know, Chad Holmgren’s on the court, he’s playing with intensity. Evan Mobley’s making noise when he thinks he got fouled. That’s the difference. But 21 turnovers is inexcusable. No. No matter how you cut it up, even against the best defense in the league, even without your all star point guard. And I asked DeAndre Hunter after the game, should one piece make this big of a difference? He’s like, well, he’s an all star. Yeah, so. So is Jalen Williams, right? Isaiah Hardenstein, he’s paid a lot of money. He’s like their Jared Allen. Right? He’s a great screener. He’s really good defensive player. He does a lot of the dirty work. He’s an underrated passer. Oh well, we’ll just figure it out. Cavs can’t figure it out the same way.
Ethan Sands: That gets to the second layer of this conversation. Obviously Donovan Mitchell, we’ll get to that in a little bit. But Evan Mobley and Chet Holmgren, the conversation of how does your number two step up when your number three is not there? How does your number three step up when your number two is not there? Evan Mobley has not been able to be an offensive focal point and to the point where Kenny Atkinson is very skeptical when he goes away from a lineup that contains both Donovan Mitchell and Evan Mobley side by side at this point in the season. Evan Mobley tried to start the season not playing with Donovan Mitchell. Now that has changed. He has to play with Donovan Mitchell or he’s not going to be the same level of empowerment. He’s not going to be the same level of efficient or influence on the game. And Shay Gillet as Alexander goes out, Chet Humgren comes in and is like I’m taking over. It’s my show now. He has a different mental maturity that is allowing him to play with a different level of aggressiveness, assertiveness, all the things that we needed to see from Evan Mobley that just haven’t shown up. And again we’re, we’re talking about the defensive end and the floor as well. Evan Mobley is still one of the best rim protectors in the league, but the Oklahoma City offense registered a 130.7 half court offensive rating, 99th percentile. We’ve talked about this team struggling in transition. They struggled in the half court when their defense was set against okc, when Shane Gilder Alexander was breaking down an offender and then getting the ball to where it needed to be and drive, kick, swing. How similar does that sound to the offense that the Cavs want to run but have failed to do it thus far into the season? To me it’s the inconsistency of where this team has been this year, how difficult they’ve made it look. The OKC Thunder came into tonight’s game in the bottom five and three point percentage over the last 10 games of the season and yet they dropped 23 three pointers on 48.9%. So does that mean that the defensive identity of the Cavs think that they’re changing from funnel to the bigs in the paint that they had in recent years to being more perimeter emphasis is failing or does it mean that they’re not engaged and their rotations are too slow because that’s what Donovan Mitchell was talking about after the game. The little things that the OKC Thunder do that make them a championship level team, the rotations that they’re willing to make, the effort that they’re willing to make. Kenny Atkinson said it before tonight’s game that, oh yeah, you’re going up against the reigning champions, you’re going to have a little bit more umph in your game. I saw that for one quarter. I didn’t see it for the rest of the game. Like, remember when Kenny Atkinson said earlier in the season that after the first quarter they knew the game was over? That’s what it felt like today. It felt like even if the Cavs were to get close, it was never like the okc 30 were worried about this Cavs game.
Chris Fedor: I mean, it was a single digit game in the second half for 39 total seconds. And the closest that the Cavs got was nine on three separate occasions. The way that Kenny Atkins said and said it was total domination. And he’s right. But it’s like it just showed who these teams are at your core, who are you at the Cavs court? They are this maddeningly inconsistent team that has been for this season. If we’re just evaluating this season, a group of underachievers. DeAndre Hunter’s underachieving Lonzo Ball, underachieving Evan Mobley, underachieving Darius Garland, circumstances attached to it. Underachieving Jared Allen. I don’t know. He’s kind of playing close to his contract. He’s a $20 million player, not a $45 million player. So maybe you could say underachieving slightly, but this is just kind of like who he is and who he’s paid to be. The, the thing that I think that the Cavs are frustrated with and you know, they, you have to read between the lines and, and you really have to look at what they’re saying and, and what does it mean? I, I thought it was very, very telling that, that Donovan used the term habits.
Jimmy Watkins: I did.
Chris Fedor: I don’t think that was an accident from Donovan tonight. I, I think he was pointing out the difference between the Cavs and the Thunder and the habits that OKC has been able to build carry them through when they’re missing Jalen Williams, when they’re missing Isaiah Hartenstein, when they have to play Usman Jang, when the game is still being decided in the second half because they’re running out of bodies. And I think it’s been a point of frustration for him and other people inside this organization because that’s what they’ve been talking about since training camp. They’re like, hey, you know, the regular season, don’t judge us based on results. It’s about the process. And they say the regular season is about building habits. And that’s the thing, right? You don’t win or lose a championship in January, but you build habits this time of year that are supposed to lead you to the championship, and the Cavs just aren’t doing that. You can sit there and say, don’t have Max Stru. You can sit there and say, don’t have Sam Merrill, don’t have Darius Garland. But the things that are in their control, just like the things that are in OKC’s control. The Cavs continue to come up woefully short from a consistency standpoint, and at some point you just have to say, is this just who they are? Like, we keep waiting for them to hit this wave. Kenny Atkinson talks about this wave and ascending toward the end of the season. But when you’re more than halfway through the season and the same things are happening and you’re showing yourselves to be this same team that you were at the very beginning of the year, and it’s not about talent. It is not about, like, yes, the roster construction is flawed, and yes, guys are underachieving, but the things in their control they just haven’t done to a high enough level consistently. And those are the things that they’re supposed to be building behind the scenes. So the fact that Donovan brought up habits and said, like, that’s the thing that I’m taking away from Oklahoma City, that to me was really, really telling. And for Jared Allen to say their defense, their defense just completely took us out of rhythm. That’s who the Cavs said they were going to be. The Cavs said they were going to be that kind of team. They’re going to be the defense that makes other teams uncomfortable. What 136 from this version of OKC. Like what? There was a possession in the second half where the Thunder just rotated and they gave extra effort after extra effort and there were deflections and there were guys closing out hard, and then there were other guys that were covering for the guy who came over to help. And then I think it ended up with a Cav’s basket. But, like, the Cavs had to work their butt off for any kind of look at the basket. And I turned to somebody next to me and I said, when have you seen the Cavs do that. And he made a snide comment and said like, hey, they forced a 24 second violation in the first half. And I said, but it didn’t look like that. And it doesn’t look like that. Not on the defensive end of the floor. And you just look at the game and you say, well, that’s who one team is and then that’s who another team is. And it doesn’t look comparable. In no way does it look comparable. The level of effort, the level of togetherness, the level of compete, the level of toughness, mentally and physically, all of those things. Oklahoma City does better than the Cavs. They impose their will in a way that the Cavs have not been able to do. And the lack of consistency, you just have to wonder is a lack of consistency just who this basketball team is and who they’re going to be.
Jimmy Watkins: Remember last year, this game in this arena?
Chris Fedor: Yes.
Jimmy Watkins: It’s like God’s gift to basketball. Brian Windhorse called it the greatest regular season basketball game. I don’t know if he said he had ever seen or he had seen in some time. We were all honored to witness. It was like the first time and however long that maybe ever. But the two teams with those two great winning percentages had played this late into the regular season and it was just an NBA Finals preview. I wrote this big wiggy column about, hey espn, you need to show these teams more. These are the, this is the future of the league. The Thunder are the future of the league. The Cavs are like a theoretical team right at this point. Well, when Darius Garland comes back and gets. Darius Garland is hard hurt a lot. Darius Garland now has two injuries, a toe injury on each foot. We already know the first one can drag and has dragged. We’ll see about the second one. I’m not a doctor, but oftentimes when you have one leg or foot or whatever injured, you tend to favor the other one. And sometimes that can cause an injury on the other side of your body. Again, no one gave me a PhD but that does happen quite a bit, particularly in sports. Okay, I’m not sure I believe that we’re going to get 100% Darius Garland for the rest of this season. And frankly that might mean ever again in a Cavs uniform because this is, this is the put up we’re showed up here. If they don’t do something significant this postseason, I believe changes will be made. So that’s just a reality you might have to deal with now. Whatever version of Darius Garland you think can save this team I’m not sure we’re going to see that version again. Evan Mobley, with Evan Mobley could just get back to what he was last year. 37% 3 point shooter.
Chris Fedor: Last.
Jimmy Watkins: Last year he’s 31%. This year he’s 33% for his career. 37 kind of looks like an outlier to me at this point. We’ll see. He’s. He’s figured it out over stretches. Before last season did feel real to me, but this year it just, it looks flat. He’s not shooting with confidence. That’s a win. Whenever Moby shoots a three, I think that’s a win for a defense at this point. And frankly, for the version of Donovan Mitchell that we saw last year to exist, those other things need to happen too. Like Donovan needs Darius to release the pressure, to give the defenses something else to pay attention to. For him to maximize what he does. He needs Evan Mobley to help. He needs more than these guys are giving him right now whatever they were getting from Ty Jerome last year. Don’t. I don’t see who’s giving him that. DeAndre Hunter might be like the team mascot for the Cavs right now. He is emblematic. The TE’s just inconsistent. His defense depends on his offense. He’s moody on the court. He’s. He seems like a very nice guy. I don’t mean to say it like that. It’s just like as a basketball player, his, his, his effort is determined by how his day is going. That’s not how the Oklahoma City Thunder operate. Jared Allen, we know, comes and goes like this. This great team, maybe they just caught lightning in a bottle last year. Maybe they were healthier too. Both of those things can be true. But even when this team has been mostly together, and I know we haven’t seen Max Strus yet, he’s got a Jones fracture. That’s another injury that lingers. We’re learning that right now.
Ethan Sands: We.
Jimmy Watkins: The Max Drew injury updates have been a little all over the place this year and Max Drew is almost 30. We’ll see what happens when he. We can, when he comes back. Sam Rail’s been a revelation. It’s unfortunate that he’s had enough that he has another injury. But again, injuries can be part of the game. And if one $9 million player throws you this far off your game, I would argue your game wasn’t in a great place to begin with. So, yes, the Cavs are talented. Yes, they were a great offense last year. They were his. They were a great regular season team. I’M just not sure that team exists anymore except for in the warmest parts of Cavs fans imaginations.
Chris Fedor: The other thing that’s fascinating to me is that if you’re talking about theoretical, right, the team that is theoretically supposed to handle absences, injury absences, stretches without key players, it’s the most expensive roster in NBA history. Isn’t that the team that’s supposed to handle those things? It’s the only NBA team in the second apron. They should be built. They should have enough talent, they should have enough depth, they should have enough guys that are capable of stepping up. And I know not everybody is Darius and I know not everybody is Sam Merrill and Max Struse and they bring different skill sets and things along those lines, but if there’s a team that is supposed to be built to handle those kinds of absences, it’s the most expensive team ever assembled.
Jimmy Watkins: It’s the core four. It’s not a big three. It’s not a dynamic duo. It’s a core four. There are four former all stars on this team, obviously. Jared Allen, one time all stars, Blip, all that. All that.
Chris Fedor: But don’t take that away from him. Jimmy, that is. It’s not a sparkiest thing on his resume.
Jimmy Watkins: He’s not an all Star the way some of these other guys are all stars. I think we can all admit that. I think he would tell you that. But you still got three. I mean, Don and Evan are all NBA on their resume and the right year. Darius has that potential. So. Okay. Yeah, he’s sitting down right now. Oh, no. Now you all only have two. All NBA caliber players. You the Phoenix Sun. You know what Jordan Kns Phoenix Suns say to say to that Bub Kiss. We’ve got Devin Booker and a bunch of soul. That’s what we got over here.
Chris Fedor: Bunch.
Jimmy Watkins: A bunch of. Yeah, a bunch of grit. A bunch of people that you would hate playing against in any pickup game. The Cavs need. I guess they need more talent. I. I was going to say I think they need less talent and more will at this point. Man, it’s. It’s a bummer. They’re a bummer. Watch. They’re a bad hang. I said this before. They are less than the sum of their parts and their parts should add up to a lot. That’s. That’s the toughest part about it.
Ethan Sands: I thought this was the year that we were supposed to celebrate depth. I thought we were going to keep doing that, right? And now Kenny Atkinson’s talking about, yeah, depth is good. We have depth, I’m going to shrink the rotation to nine to ten players a night. He legitimately said that. He said he was going to shrink that to a 9 to 10. So that means Larry Dance Jr. Sorry, unlikely to see the floor. Thomas Bryant, very seldomly garbage minutes when you’re getting blown out. The other portion of this that kind of ties in hand in hand. Jimmy said this before the game tonight. Donovan Mitchell, it’s going up. He’s taking shots tonight because he knows he has to without Darius Garland. He knows he has to because Evan Mobley hasn’t stepped up. He knows he has to because as Kenny Atkinson said, kind of he needs to keep trusting his teammates. Does that mean that he’s losing that trust in his teammates? I don’t know. But what I’m seeing is is Donovan taking 18 shots tonight, being five of eight. Some of them felt forced one of nine from deep. And obviously he is their franchise face, he is their best player. But he it felt heavier for Donovan Mitchell and it has all season because of what he hasn’t had next to him. And I think again, Shay Gildas Alexander is the best example of this because he hasn’t had J Dub for numerous games. Jdub didn’t start the season. He wasn’t here. He didn’t play more games to start the season than Darius did. Right?
Chris Fedor: Right.
Ethan Sands: So I think the expressions on Donovan Mitchell’s faces, the reliability of the players around him. Like I asked Kenny Atkinson after the game, how do you get Donovan more help? And he said keep trusting his teammates because they will make plays but we need to do it more consistently because our decision making wasn’t right today and it wasn’t 21 turnovers tells you that. But guys, Donovan did not get an All Star starter nod. Right? He was snubbed from that. The All Star starters for the Eastern Conference were Giannis Antetokounmpo, Cade Cunningham, Tyrese Maxey, Jalen Brown and Jalen Brunson. Do we feel like this was a snub on Donovan Mitchell’s part that he deserved to be an All Star starter and now is in the hands of the coaches around the league to decide whether he’ll be in All Star at all?
Chris Fedor: Do I think it was a snub? Yes, because I voted for him and as a voter, he was one of the first names that I clicked. And I totally understand the Cavs have underachieved and their record is not what a lot of people expected coming into this year. Coming into this year, the Cavs were projected for the second most wins of any team in the NBA behind the Thunder. And that just hasn’t been the case. There are tons of expectations. They haven’t lived up to that. And you don’t necessarily want to reward a guy unless you absolutely have to. And I feel like Donovan made it so that you absolutely had to reward him. Before tonight’s game against Oklahoma City, he had one of the league’s best net rating differentials. With him on the floor, the Cavs outscored opponents by eight points per 100 possessions. With him off the floor, minus six. That’s telling. That’s in Giannis territory, right? That’s in Nikola Jokic territory. And that tells you that it’s not a Donovan thing. It tells you that it’s a Cavs thing. It tells you that it’s a supporting cast thing. The other thing is career highs and points. Career highs and field goal percentage. Career highs in 3 point percentage, more assists, more rebounds. Better defender than Jalen Brunson. So to me you always have to have these conversations if you say, okay, if somebody snubbed, who are you taking out to put him in? Well, to me you’re taking out Jalen Brunson. That wasn’t even a debate debate for me. My last spot, the debate was Jalen Brown and Jalen Brunson and Jalen Johnson, the three Jalens. I had Giannis as my first click. Donovan was my second click. Cade was my third, Maxi was my fourth. And then it was between all the Jalens and I kept Brunson off because he just doesn’t guard anybody. He is one of the league’s worst defenders. And that doesn’t take away from what he means to the Knicks offensively and how gifted he is offensively. And this isn’t about who is. You get into a seven game playoff series, who’s going to perform better on that stage. It’s rewarding the guy for the year that he is having. And Donovan Mitchell is having to me a better year than Jalen Brunson in basically every statistical category that matters and including the impact metrics that I value greatly. So I do think it was a snub from that standpoint. It doesn’t mean that Brunson’s not deserving of an all star selection, but to me he’s a reserve, not a starter. Donovan should be the starter and in the Western Conference I think Anthony Edwards should start over.
Ethan Sands: Steph Curry.
Chris Fedor: It didn’t play out that way. But for for Donovan to finish sixth in the Eastern Conference in Every single voting category, fans, media and players. That was very, very surprising to me and that tells me that people were not aware of just how different this team has functioned with and without him on the floor.
Jimmy Watkins: First of all, I don’t think people watch the Cavs very much when they’re not good. Trust me, I don’t blame those people. I don’t blame those people. But I think that’s where some of this stems from. Like Jalen Brunson’s more visible. Tyrus Maxey’s more visible. Giannis is more famous is what it is. That being said, even if you want to make the but their winners case against Donovan, the Knicks are two games out of the Cavs in the lost clan right now. They lost to the Mavericks tonight by like 17 points and the Mavericks still aren’t sure that they’re trying to win games. They started the season on the tank and then Anthony Davis came back. Well, we might be pretty good. Yeah, we’re tanking again, Cooper flag is they don’t know what they’re doing. We’re up by like 30 on the mix tonight. Philly, same tier as the Cavs, very inconsistent. Bright future, I think. I think Maxi and Edgecombe’s going to be a heck of a backcourt and frankly, once the Sixers figure out life post Joel Embiid, whose contract is aging pretty poorly due to injury and watching him against the Cavs last week was a little sad. He just doesn’t move the same way. But in the present day, the Sixers are not markedly better than the Cavs.
Ethan Sands: Right?
Jimmy Watkins: And then of course, Giannis barely played enough games to even qualify and his team is not even in the play in in the east, which is embarrassing. I don’t care that Giannis got hurt. That’s embarrassing. This is one of the weaker Eastern conferences we have seen and you can’t stay afloat in it. You don’t get to make my all star team when when that’s the case. That’s being said, I have good news for the aggrieved Caps fans who appreciate, as they should, what Donovan does to will this franchise into mediocrity. Where would this team be without Donovan Mitchell and scary thought to will them into mediocrity. Here’s the good news. It doesn’t matter. All star starters don’t matter. It makes no difference the way you are remembered. If you go to basketball References I do 75 times a day. One of the first things you see next to the person’s picture is like their little list of accomplishments. So for LeBron, it says 21 All Star selections, 21 All NBAs, four titles, blah blah, blah, blah. There’s no tab for All Star starter. They don’t count them. I’m sure somebody somewhere is counting this. Apparently I didn’t even know this. Apparently this was LeBron’s first time ever not being named an All Star starter. I didn’t know that. I don’t really care. He’s still a 21 time All Star. That’s all anyone’s going to remember. I promise Donovan Mitchell will be an All Star again this year. And this time next year, we won’t be able to name all the All Stars. And this is, this is even more true in an age where the NBA is tweaking the format every other year and now we’re doing world versus usa. And yes, should Donovan been an All Star starter? Yes, it’s a, it’s a statusy pride thing amongst the players. I think it legitimately does matter to them. But the reason this stuff matters, All Star, all NBA, all that stuff, is because they, they help us determine legacies. And Donovan Mitchell’s legacy is unchanged by this voting error.
Chris Fedor: Defensive estimated plus minus dead last in the NBA. Isaiah Collier of the Utah Jazz, second last in the NBA. Keonte George of the Utah Jazz, third last. Cam Thomas of the Brooklyn Nets, fourth last. Nick Smith Jr. Fifth, fifth last. Jalen Brunson. That is the company that he is in as a defensive player. You have to be unbelievably special offensively for me to just ignore that. And then if you’re talking about comparisons, right, this isn’t Jalen Brunson versus LaMelo Ball. This is Jalen Brunson versus Donovan Mitchell. Who gets that knot? This is Jaylen Brunson versus Jaylen Brown. Who gets that knot? This is Jalen Brunson versus Jalen Johnson. Who gets that? Not. You know what I’m saying? Like the other things are really, really comparable. And then the glaring thing that stands out to you is one dude is the worst defender in the NBA. And last time I checked, there are two sides of the floor in basketball.
Ethan Sands: And I agree with you, I think it’s a difficult thing to see. Donovan, who has played to an MVP caliber to start the season and as you guys have both mentioned, kept this COWS team afloat or with its head above water at this point. But the Cows are currently 24 and 20. They sit as the seventh seed in the Eastern Conference. They are now one and a half games back from the third seed in New York Knicks and they have winnable games, but they’ve also lost winnable games this season. So the expectations are waxing and waning. And when it comes to the All Stars, I want to just do this really quickly. The All Star starters for the Western Conference, Nicole Jokic, Luka Doncic, Shane Gilgis, Alexander, Stephen Curry and Victor Wembanyama. And guys, this was so interesting to me and I talked to Jimmy about this during the game. Team World. Depending on if Donovan Mitchell gets to be on Team World because of his Panamanian heritage, all this stuff. If he doesn’t because he’s never played on a Team World kind of team when it comes to fiba, that would mean that the Team World team would consist of Nikola Jokic, Luka Doncic, Shai Gilders, Alexander, Victor Wembanyama and Giannis Antetokounmpo. That would be their starting five. That’s ugly for the Team USA because one, they wouldn’t have a big man in the starter unit and two, those top five players that are on Team World are arguably the top five players in the league.
Jimmy Watkins: How long were we. Seven years now without an American born mvp? This is where we’re at. This is where we’re at, folks. The world is here. And the Olympics are going to get even more interesting as the years pass. And some of these young stars, like, I mean Wemby in particular, once he comes into his own, they’re coming. You can already see it. We’re struggling more and more every four years, but they’re coming for us. Quick sidebar. I know we talk about the Cavs having some winnable games coming up. Are the Cavs better than the Hornets right now? Are they playing better ball?
Chris Fedor: No. I mean, statistically the Hornets have one of the best net ratings since the calendar flipped to January. So like, I mean, obviously there’s a lot of downside to the Hornets and they could just throw up a stinker. Look at their record. But the way that the two teams are playing is very, very comparable. Like again, the Cavs are contenders in name only. And, and some of that is built on a reputation that I don’t know is entirely warranted.
Ethan Sands: At least the Charlotte Hornets know who they are. They knew what they’re going to do when they try to come down the floor offensively and defensively. They know their struggles, right? Offensively, the Cavs went from a historic offense to, okay, we’re going to start the season with the most three point attempts in the league. Okay, now for the entire month of January, we’re in the bottom 10 so don’t know who they are. And then when they get to the rim, not being able to convert either doesn’t help any of those narratives. And then defensively we just know they’ve been struggling. So again, this Cavs team and we’ve had this identity crisis conversation, it feels like too many times, but like they simply don’t know who they are. And that in part is going to make playing in the playoffs whether they’re healthy or not, which if you look at their track record is highly unlikely. Makes it much more difficult to even imagine them getting past the Eastern Conference semifinals, which is the baseline for this team this season.
Chris Fedor: Jimmy, to your point, you could see Charlotte putting up 1:30 on the Cavs. Brandon Miller can shoot it. Cavs can’t guard the three point line. They don’t guard the three point line. Brandon Miller bridges con canipple lamelo ball. They could hit 20 threes just like okc hit 20. You know the 23 was not an accident. They left some out there too. How many did Kenrich Williams get that were wide open that he missed? How many did Alex Caruso get in the the first half that were wide open that he missed? And I know part of the defensive strategy is are you allowing the right guys to take those threes? Okay, it’s not Lou Dort. That’s a win for us. Okay, it’s not Chad. That’s a win for us. So that’s part of of what goes into this. And the Cavs have talked about that a few different times. But OKC made 23. But that’s not an aberration. It’s just what has been happening because the Cavs are the worst defense against the three pointer all season long. Their closeouts are terrible. There’s miscommunication constantly. Naquan Tomlin went the wrong way. Evan Mobley had to point at him multiple times going back to the huddle. In a timeout, Kenny Atkinson had to pull Naquan aside. So the communication just hasn’t been there. Following the scouting report hasn’t been there. Attention to detail hasn’t been there. Their closeouts are just not okay. C level. You watch these other elite defensive teams and you say to yourself the Cavs don’t look like that. The Cavs don’t play like that. The Cavs don’t do those kinds of things. So the 23 threes, that’s not just OKC got really, really hot and they made some that they had no business making at the end of the shot clock or something like that. And no, no, no, they left some out there that could have been 25 to 28 made threes from the Thunder, given the way that the Cavs had no answers defensively for what the Thunder were doing. The Thunder without the Thunder, without four rotational players and two starters, you don’t.
Jimmy Watkins: Get to make the case that you’re leaving people open intentionally when one of those people is Isaiah Joe. You can’t guard Isaiah Joe the same way you’re guarding Al’s career. So you can tell the difference between, okay, that, like this possession was designed to get Alex Perus a shot, right? There was a couple of moments when Alex Crusoe was in there where the ball swung to him. The Cavs eyes were moving on time over there and they. They all just collectively decided, nah, we’re good. There are other times where they are clearly a half step, if not more behind the plate. And they are just scrambling Chase, trying to make the next rotation but doing it too slowly. And then they realize at the last second, oh, this isn’t somebody that I have to guard. And sometimes the shot goes up and sometimes in their rush to, because they just feel so behind, sometimes they get beat on a closeout not knowing who they’re closing out on. It’s just a mess. It’s really. It’s just a mess out here. And Kenny Atkinson, this is really starting to get under his skin. Ian asked him about shooting luck tonight. Kenny Atkinson is the king of citing shooting luck. Ethan asked him a reasonable question. At what point is it no longer shooting luck? And Kenny got for by Kenny press conference standards. A little testy. I say. I just said. I just said it was everything. I’m making a prediction on this podcast that within I’ll give it two weeks, Kenny Atkinson is going to go on a press conference rant for all rants within the next two weeks. I don’t know if it’s going to be about the refs. I don’t know if it’s going to be about some terrible efforts that they bring to the game one night. But he’s pissed. I can start to. You’re starting to see it. There’s going to be a 92nd, can’t miss portion of Kenny Atkinson’s press conference within the next two weeks.
Ethan Sands: I’m ready for it, bro, because we’ve been talking about accountability, right? And needing to hold this team accountable. And sure, you can do it behind the scenes, but there is no bigger way, better way. And it’s been proven right Chris Finch does it all the time. Will Hardy, sure, they haven’t had the same level of success, but they play hard, right? So I think the Cavs need a little bit of that. It’s not, it’s time to be done with the old, good old wrist slap that he’d been given and let them have it a little bit. And I think part of the reason he was frustrated with Mike. My question today was because he misunderstood that I wasn’t asking about the offense, I was asking about the defense and how they’re the worst three point defense in the NBA. And he’s been mentioning shot luck and shot quality and all these things for those, those attempts. And yet even a team that hasn’t necessarily been good shooting, the three made 23 threes against him. I agree with you, Jimmy. I think he’s getting a little heated. Then you jlp and maybe it’s time for him to go back to his New York roots one time and let it fly.
Chris Fedor: I think I said it about two weeks ago, maybe three weeks ago. It started feeling like a team that wasn’t believing the things it was saying. They felt like they had to say those things because they had been saying those things over and over and over again and they wanted a consistent message, but it just didn’t feel like they were actually believing the things that they were saying. And you get that sense just being around this team more and more and more.
Ethan Sands: You.
Chris Fedor: You get a sense of them looking around and saying, can we do this, but can we fix this? Are we going to be able to fix this? The natural thing is to say, yeah, because you have a season to play. You have a second half of the season to play. It’s not even the All Star break. And if you’re looking for a modicum of hope, you say, Max could come back, Darius could come back. Sam. There are things that they can still clutch onto, as ridiculous as they may sound, Right. As frivolous as they may be, there are still those things that if you have to get a life preserver and clutch onto it, like that’s what you got right right now. Right. Because you really can’t focus on too many other basketball related things. You just have to say, could these guys coming back, can it deepen our rotation? Can it make guys more playable? Can it strengthen some of these two man lineups, three man lineups, some of these combinations and all that kind of stuff, can it push guys further down the depth chart that probably should be further down the depth chart? That’s all they really have right now, you know what I’m saying? Because like there just isn’t a foundation of quality consistent play that they can be like we’ll just tap into that or they’re just like, isn’t this stable identity that they have built for themselves where they say, well, we’ll just lean into that. Would you start defending our asses off? No, you haven’t defended your asses off once consistently for 48 minute game this year. Maybe once against Detroit, maybe. But like that, that, that hasn’t been. That’s not who you are. That’s not who you are at your core. You haven’t proven to be that at your core. So the basketball related things, what do they grab onto? What do they focus on? What do they point to? There really isn’t anything they can’t really say. Well, trade deadlines right around the corner and we’ll just, you know, be able to make these moves and make these additions and bring some new guys in here and that’ll put some wind in our sails. Now you’re a second apron team and you’re restricted in the things that you can do from an acquisition standpoint. So really I don’t think they have anything else except for to say Darius, Sam, Max, maybe, possibly, please have the.
Jimmy Watkins: Theoretical Cavs, but the Practical Thunder just beat them by 32 points because the Practical Thunder get things done in real life regardless of who is in or out of the lineup. They’re the defending champions and they are two losses clear of everyone in the entire league despite missing multiple starters for long stretches of the season. I’d rather be the practical team than the theoretical team personally.
Ethan Sands: And they’ve had the same areas of issue since the summer, since the Indiana Patriots series. We knew going into the summer I wrote an article listing five areas that the Cavs could look to improve on that Kenny Atkinson could focus on in the summertime. I just did a mid season report card and Chris and Jimmy, I could tell you those grades were not fun to give because they weren’t good. And that’s the issue is if you consistently have the same problems, then what are you actually doing behind the scenes to address stuff. And I think that’s the difficult portion. And Chris, I think you said it well and I actually wrote it similarly at the end of that article. It’s not whether they can because you’ve seen glimpses of a good team in some games. You’ve seen sparks and spurts of teams able to compete at a certain level, but will they actually do it for elongated Stretching. We’re talking about seven game series, guys, and we saw it in the Indiana Pacers series. One game can shift the entire series if you let. So I think the Cavs are still looking on what team they can be, what team they will be, and who they are as a whole. And I think they’re still searching for. For all of those answers, especially when they don’t have three players that they feel like they need to be the team that they want to.
Chris Fedor: I think there’s one other thing here and, and Jimmy, I think you were bringing this up with Kenny before the game. I think it was you. So Oklahoma City wins the championship. Look at how they’re approaching this regular season. Look at how they’re treating this regular season. If there’s a team out there that has earned the right to kind of be like, cute regular season, all right, January go away, all right, February. If there’s a team that has earned that right, it’s okc. They’re the only team maybe that has earned that right, maybe Denver, because they do have that championship DNA and they’re pretty much the same team that won that championship. But my point is OKC has earned the right to be like, cute regular season. We don’t have to do blah, blah, blah. But that’s not who they are and that’s not how they’re approaching it. That’s not how they’re treating it. And maybe there’s something to. Maybe the Cavs should look at that and say, hmm, eureka. Maybe, maybe there is more to this whole regular season thing. You saw the Cavs and then you saw the Thunder and you saw how they approached it and how they played to the regular season. And it’s just. I think there’s something to that. I think there’s something that the Caps can learn from that they haven’t earned the right. They shouldn’t be the team that is just like, no, we’re good. Let’s get whatever seed we want. We have to go through the play and we’ll go through the play and it’s fine. It’s been bizarre from the very, very beginning. It continues to be bizarre. And then you see one champion and how they treat the regular season and approach the regular season, and you see this other team that has flamed out multiple times in the playoffs recently and how they approach the regular season and treat the regular season, and you’re like, it’s not even close.
Ethan Sands: I think it’s funny you say that because Mark Dagnot, before the game was like, well, we really don’t look around the league. We don’t look left or right. We focus on ourselves. And it reminded me of a quote that Usain Boat said when he was running in the Olympics. And he was like, yeah, people look at me, but I keep my head straight. Because winners don’t worry about what everybody else is doing around them. They worry about what’s ahead of them, the finish line. And the Cavs keep looking left and right. And Kenny says it all the time, well, if you look around the league, if you see what everybody else is doing right, and he’s comparing in comparison, is the thief of joy. And the joy has been sucked out of this team because they simply don’t play with it anymore. And it feels like that reliability on pointing fingers at what’s happening around them rather than focusing on internal strife has made this team, as I said to Jimmy during the game, not fun to watch.
Chris Fedor: The other thing is, if this, if this is their standard, then they’re failing. That can’t be the standard. And if it is the standard, like, that’s a failure from the organization.
Jimmy Watkins: I keep going back to training camp when Kenny, we were. We were bringing these questions to Kenny basically from exit interviews, like, hey, these guys all said the regular season doesn’t matter. How do you get them to dispel that? He’s like, well, we got. We got to get rid of this notion. He saw it coming.
Chris Fedor: Yes.
Jimmy Watkins: Kenny was trying to get ahead of this and say, no, no, no. We like that regular season is important and we, this team in particular, needs the regular season. He was trying to message that it just hasn’t gotten through. And Chris said earlier in the podcast, you can’t win a championship in January. I do think you can lose one. I do think during the regular season, you can. Your habits can deteriorate to the point where it’s. There’s no coming back from it. This team needs to show me a sustained run. Call it a month and a half, two months between now and April before I’m believing that they can make any kind of run in the playoffs. Right now, that’s where I’m at.
Ethan Sands: Yeah. And I think that’s a good way to end today’s podcast. So with all that being said, that’ll wrap up today’s episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. But remember to become a Cavs insider and interact with Chris, me and Jimmy by subscribing to subtext Signup for a 14 day free trial or visit cleveland.com Cavs and click on the blue bar at the top of the page. If you don’t like it, that’s fine. All you have to do is text the word stock. It’s easy, but we can tell you that the people who sign up stick around because this is the best way to get insider coverage on the Cav from me, Chris, and Jimmy. This isn’t just our podcast. It’s your podcast. And the only way to have your voice heard is through something. Y’ all be safe. We out.