CLEVELAND, Ohio — Welcome to this week’s edition of the Terry’s Talkin’ podcast, with cleveland.com columnist Terry Pluto and host David Campbell. In today’s episode, they talk about the Browns’ search for a new head coach, as the field starts to narrow. Terry has two candidates he thinks would get the job done.
Also, they discuss the Cavs and their tumultuous week with impressive wins at Philadelphia and their blowout home loss Monday to the Thunder.
They also talk Guardians and a question about Jose Ramirez’s contract.
Highlights:
NFL coaching searches are highly unpredictable, with success often coming from candidates with unassuming résumés rather than just impressive ones.
Many elite NFL coaches, like John Harbaugh and Andy Reid, were hired from non-coordinator roles, proving that a candidate’s title doesn’t always predict success.
The rapid rise of young coaches like Grant Udinski highlights that potential and impressing the right people can create a fast track to prominent NFL roles.
The “Moneyball” principle applies to coaching hires; despite confidence in interviews, success is unpredictable as the head coach role requires intangible skills beyond X’s and O’s.
Sean McDermott is considered a strong coaching candidate due to his proven track record of building a winning culture in Buffalo and developing QB Josh Allen.
Despite regular-season success, McDermott’s legacy is hampered by his inability to win a Super Bowl, consistently falling short in critical playoff moments.
The discussion highlights a preference for experienced, known commodities like McDermott over high-risk, high-reward “hot” candidates to minimize the gamble of a coaching search.
Jim Schwartz successfully turned around a winless Lions team but ultimately had a losing record.
The Browns’ head coaching job is viewed as less attractive (“bottom tier”) than others due to organizational instability and immense pressure.
“Watson exhaustion”—the pressure to make the Deshaun Watson trade succeed—is fueling organizational turmoil and staff turnover within the Browns.
An intriguing possibility for the Browns is hiring a veteran defensive head coach like McDermott while retaining Jim Schwartz as DC to form a powerful leadership duo.
Monday’s Cavs loss to OKC highlighted a philosophical flaw, exposing their offense-first “finesse” style as vulnerable against tougher, more disciplined defensive teams.
The underperformance of highly-paid Cavaliers veterans like Lonzo Ball and DeAndre Hunter is a major factor in the team’s current struggles.
Amid rising MLB salaries, Terry suggests the Guardians give Jose Ramirez a “good faith” bonus on his team-friendly contract to acknowledge his value.
Which coaches/ managers have the biggest impact on the success of a team: Baseball, basketball or football? A listener asks.
Here’s the podcast for this week:
If you have a question or a topic you’d like to see included on the podcast, email it to sports@cleveland.com, and put “Terry’s Talkin’” in the subject line.
You can find previous podcasts below.
Also, a transcript of the podcast is below. As it is computer-generated, it may contain many spelling and grammar errors.
David Campbell: It’s time for this week’s Terry’s Talkin’ Podcast. Terry Pluto is here. I’m your host, David Campbell. We’re back after a week off and you’ve shaken whatever bug you had a couple weeks ago, Terry, which is great to hear. How you feeling?
Terry Pluto: Yes, I am doing well. So that’s. I’m sitting here just saying I’m absolutely clueless when it comes to coaching searches and working on that.
David Campbell: You had a few days off last week. You came right back in the maelstrom of coaching changes around the NFL.
Terry Pluto: Right.
David Campbell: Full throws, as they say.
Terry Pluto: David, I’m very, very serious. I’ve had this for decades. When you’re covering coaching searches or even manager search, for example, the Guardians want to hire Terry Francona. Easy. You can look at his record, all that stuff. Okay. They want to hire Steven Vogt to replace Terry Francona. Well, he was a pretty good defensive catcher and he did spend a year as a bullpen coach in Seattle and his wife’s a really good softball coach. And this is the guy that’s going to take Terry Francona’s place. And he’s been a two time manager of the year.
David Campbell: Yeah. So like, what’s the football equivalent of that? Right. Like, yeah, I mean, the Guardians talked about. They Talked to like 150 people, I think, about Stephen Vogt right before they hired him. Didn’t they say that one at the press conference?
Terry Pluto: Crazy thing. And he said he was interviewed by a dozen people there or whatever. But nonetheless, what. I mean, I guess he could sell himself. You could say that. And there’s, and there’s, there’s. That’s part of the job. But tangibly, it isn’t as if he was even like a big time hitting coach or a big time pitching coach. I’m not knock. I’m just saying this and it shows. All right. And then the other two things we go to, and I’m opening with this, is because I. All right, Mike, before Mike Tomlin was fired, Dave Campbell, he was. I mean, fire. Excuse me, before he was hired by Pittsburgh, he was what.
David Campbell: His job.
Terry Pluto: Yeah.
David Campbell: Was he with. Boy, I don’t even remember. It’s been 20 years, right?
Terry Pluto: That’s right.
David Campbell: Well, I do know they interviewed him when they hired Bill Cower.
Terry Pluto: Right.
David Campbell: That’s where they first came across him. But I don’t remember where he was before he went to Pittsburgh.
Terry Pluto: Now, I’m not sure that’s correct because he was 34 years old when he was hired and he was a defensive coordinator for how many years in Minnesota?
David Campbell: 01. I was close.
Terry Pluto: And the year before, before Prior to that, he was defensive backs coach for five years with Tampa Bay. So that’s it. And then there was some college stuff, including a stop at vmi, I may add, the cradle of coaches. Now where I’m going with this is you look at that or you look at Stephen Vogt and who knew? How about John Harbaugh? What did he do before he was hired? I kind of put you on his foot. This stuff’s got to be.
David Campbell: He was in college for a while, right?
Terry Pluto: Yeah. And last stop, several years special teams coach, Philadelphia. So you got a special teams coach. You got a one time, one year defensive coordinator and you got those two guys who were, you know, the preeminent other than Andy Reid, by the way. What was Andy Reid before he was hired by Philadelphia? The only reason I’m offense I would coordinator at. He wishes.
David Campbell: What was he telling me?
Terry Pluto: Quarterback coach in Green Bay. So he wasn’t.
David Campbell: That’s right. He was part of the Mike Holmgren tree.
Terry Pluto: Right. But the point is there’s your top three. Okay. I want anybody to say I look at those resumes and said, oh yeah, those guys are going to be coaching for decades. And. And this as opposed to. I just say some of the people that get hired right now, Kevin Stefanski got hired by Atlanta. You know, there’s stuff to look at. The reason I’m, I’m doing this is because those of us in the media, some of us like really research this and they talk to all these people who know him and that’s all you could really do, but you don’t really know what he’s going to do.
David Campbell: Well, they don’t either.
Terry Pluto: Yeah, that’s the point. They don’t. You hope you’re hoping and. But you don’t. All right, I’m not done yet. You ready?
David Campbell: I’m ready. I’m ready.
Terry Pluto: I’ll just do this. I’m not going to put you on the spot.
David Campbell: I’ll just keep getting things wrong.
Terry Pluto: That’s okay. No, I’m doing that because actually you follow this stuff and I wouldn’t have known this had I not been researching this for my newsletter and that. Okay. Greg Yudinsky, 30 years old, played football at Towson and Davidson. This another. You know, they turn out a lot of coaches. Davidson’s been a good basketball school. Okay. His first job out of school was he was a grad system at Baylor for a little while there before he found a place to live. He slept in his car at Walmart as a graduate assistant. Matt Rule was the coach There, Matt Rule liked him. And a year later in 2020, Matt Ward became the head coach at Carolina. He takes Yudinsky with him and Usinski for two years there has a title of quote, coaching assistant, unquote, which means you kind of do whatever they tell you to do. In 2022, he goes to Minnesota as assistant to the head coach, which was a entry level job, by the way, that Kevin Stefanski had Minnesota for Brad Childress many a moon ago when he was young. 2023, still in Minnesota, he is assistant quarterbacks coach. 2024, he gets the title of assistant quarterbacks coach and assistant offensive coordinator. And in 2025, he’s hired in Jacksonville as the offensive coordinator. But he doesn’t cover call plays. Now, clearly he impressed a lot of people along the way to get these jobs because there are tons of coaches want these entry level jobs. They’ll sleep, they’ll sleep in Walmart themselves if it would get them a job. You know, they’ll go, they’ll do the toy, they’ll work in a toy department stocking at night if that would get them a job. Whatever it would take.
David Campbell: Oh yeah. I mean, we’ve heard Eric Mangini talk about having to get food for the coaches when he was at the Browns when he was like a low level entry coach.
Terry Pluto: Believe me, I’m not putting this down, but I’m just saying you look at that and tell me at the age of 30, turn 30 on January 12, would, would you think if I, that this guy would be a finalist for the Browns job? And he is, he’s. He’s in the final Four or whatever now maybe he is the next Sean McVeigh or maybe not, I don’t know. But I’m just saying when I go to write about it, I don’t know what to really say about these people.
David Campbell: Well, we haven’t had a Moneyball reference in a while on a podcast. Yeah, podcast area. But like, you know the scene where Brad Pitt’s talking to the head sc.
Terry Pluto: Yeah.
David Campbell: And he says to him, you, you walk around here and you act like you know what the future is going to bring these prospects. And the fact is you don’t. Like, you don’t know. Some of them are going to bust and some of them are going to be great. And we see the same thing with coaches. Like, absolutely, you can interview great, you can have a great resume. But there’s a difference between being a coordinator or a quarterbacks coach and being a head coach. It’s a totally different job. And you just. You can never know.
Terry Pluto: Now, the flip side, now, we could. We could evaluate. All right, let’s go to Sean McDermott. What would you say about him?
David Campbell: I think that. And we’ve talked about this a lot of times, coaches are better the second time around. Ivy Harris, our colleague, did a post last week looking at some coaches, including Jim Schwartz, who had. You know, who, because it’s relevant to him how they do the second time around.
Terry Pluto: So. All right, so we go to. We go to. We go to then to Sean McDermott. And your thoughts are.
David Campbell: I would like to see what he does the second time around. But, I mean, he had a lot of advantages in Buffalo. He had a great quarterback, he had patience from ownership, and he had some chances in the playoffs that they could not pull off. I don’t know what. He’s better the second time. I don’t know.
Terry Pluto: I will say this. First of all, he went to a franchise that hadn’t been in the playoffs for a million years. He went to a franchise where the starting quarterback was. Who was it? Dave Campbell that first year, Tyrod Taylor.
David Campbell: Hey, I got one, right.
Terry Pluto: Yeah. And he somehow gets them into the playoffs. So the next year they draft Josh Allen. But if you look at his stats from that year, this is fact. I believe McDermott’s only losing season. Allen, like, completed 52% of his passes, and the stats are a mess. The team lost. It was a struggle. So he didn’t go in where there was a quarterback in place. He had to find one. And that’s what. See, this is some of the stuff I could look at in there. First of all, I see somehow he drags Tyrod Taylor into the playoffs because Tyrod Taylor doesn’t get to the playoffs on his own. We’ve seen him elsewhere. He’s a very nice backup quarterback. And then they work with Allen, and Allen was not considered a finished product out of Wyoming. In fact, as we are speaking, I have my University of Wyoming hat on because that’s kind of my adopted collar thing ever since my friend Larry Shiat became the head coach, basketball coach there many moons ago. And he also had Larry Nash Jr. So I thought. And I like Wyoming as a state, so I thought, well, why not? But so I followed Alan, actually, because of that. And Alan had no Division one offers out of high school. He went to a juco in California. Then he was recruited to go to Wyoming, which was his only Division 1 offer, and played there. Now, you know, he’s more of a physical specimen, all that. But there were a Lot of concerns about his ability to become an accurate passer and he developed that in Buffalo. And meantime, Rick Dermot won a lot of games, to be exact. I mean, he’s a guy that, you look at his record and in the last seven years, Kansas City has the best record overall in the last seven years, counting. This is E from espn counting playoffs. Kansas City, then the team that’s won the second most games is Buffalo. Number three is Philly and number four is the Rams. Now the argument is only Buffalo failed to win the super bowl in that seven year span. And McDermott would say that’s correct. But we got knocked out by Patrick Mahomes four times in the play. I mean, that’s tough. And the last three playoffs, it’s agonizing. They lost by three points in each of the last three playoff games. And I know you’re still mad at them about one of those losses to Kansas City.
David Campbell: Yeah, I mean, when they had the lead in the last 20 seconds or whatever it was, and they got that. Yeah, it was, that was bad.
Terry Pluto: It was bad.
David Campbell: You know, coaches make mistakes and you hope they learn from. Yeah, I mean, you’re right, Terry. They could do a lot worse than him.
Terry Pluto: Yeah. My argument would be it isn’t like he walked in to a set situation and he walked in where there was no quarterback and they had to develop a quarterback. And you know, he brought, as I would say, he brought legitimacy and watchability. I mean the Bills mafia, you know, now at the end you become so close, then you get into Marty Schottenheimer land, you know that you can’t. Now we go back and look Dave Campbell, the last Browns coach, back to back winning seasons. Not a trick question.
David Campbell: Marty Schottenberg, of course. Yeah.
Terry Pluto: If we’d be building Marty statues if he were. I mean, it’s incredible about that. And this guy, you know, this popped out 10 win seasons and 11 win seasons and, and, and did it in Buffalo. So see that, that’s. You could really begin to analyze that. How did he come in? What did he have to work with? What was the franchise like before? What led to him being fired? How is he now? You know, then you have real data from people who worked with him as a head coach. How did he handle this and that. But these other guys, it’s just so hard. That doesn’t mean you must hire somebody with experience, because now I’ll give you a Dan Gilbert line. This is when Gilbert hired Mike Brown as the head coach of the Cavs the first time. And so I went up to Gilbert afterwards, it was just he and I talking. I said, dan, this guy has no experience as a head coach, not in college or anywhere. And he said, well, you know what it is about experience? I said, well, what? He goes, actually, that’s it. I say he has experience doing what, being mediocre or being good or what? He said, just because you have experience. In other words, he’s kind of saying experience is neutral, and that is based on exactly what you did with the experience. But simply. And there is a thing in the NBA, by the way, certain coaches that kind of bounce from team to team and they just sort of kind of maybe win it just enough games to once in a while make the playoffs or be they were called 401k coaches. In other words. Yeah, they find just a way to keep their job and get fired in this. So. And I think that would be probably, I should have told Dan that line. He would steal it and like it because I got it from a older GM long time ago. So. But that’s why when I look at this, you know, we could look. Now, let’s, let’s talk about Schwartz.
David Campbell: All right, let me. Why don’t we do a reset here. Let me run through all the candidates based on Mary Kay’s reporting and then we can kind of get into Schwartz and wherever else you want to go. All right, so the Browns are having their second slate of interviews this week. Jim Schwartz has had a second interview. They’ve also got interviews scheduled this week with Todd Monken, former Ravens offensive coordinator, Dolphins coach Mike McDaniel, which will be on Wednesday. You mentioned Grant Yudinsky, possibly also Wednesday. And it looks like Jesse Minter is going to be coming in this week. And according to Mary Kay, that’s the first time they’ll be meeting him in person. And they’ve also been interested in Rams past game coordinator Nate Shieldhouse, but they have to wait until next week to talk to him after the NFC Championship Game, which the Rams are playing in. So that’s it, Right.
Terry Pluto: That’s everybody before I go back. But.
David Campbell: So that’s why you took and McDermott potentially, right?
Terry Pluto: Yeah. I’ve not heard they’re interested in him. I was trying to make some calls today, by the way. I’m not sure they are or they don’t think they can get him or something. Anyway, Shield House, Udinsky, Minter, to me, are in the same bag of. Really? Who knows? I mean, who knows? They might be good, they might not. I. I have a hard time analyzing that. And maybe now you know, I know they. They pay hundreds of thousands of dollars to have these people analyzed. And then the other two at least have a track record. McDaniel and Schwartz. I’ll just say I’m not a McDaniel guy. What do you think of McDaniel?
David Campbell: I don’t think that he necessarily fits what the Browns need right now. And I just get a weird, you know, you watch Mike Vrabel’s team play in New England and you know what it’s like to be in that locker room every day. Like, it’s kind of an honest, outwardly facing place to play. And I don’t get that same Sense with Mike McDaniel’s Dolphins locker room when I watched them. Like, I. There was a lot of stuff with TUA this year where there was a little bit of infighting, and I just. I didn’t get the sense that it was the same vibe as you want or you want to see in a winning team like New England. I’m not just comparing those two. Those are just, you know, I was watching New England a lot this season because of Rabel.
Terry Pluto: Yeah.
David Campbell: But it doesn’t feel the same to me.
Terry Pluto: But if you even go to, like, say, Tomlin has presence, Harbaugh had presence. I’m not saying there. Kevin, not so much. But Kevin was successful here at different times. But McBride, McDaniels to me is like, lock him in a room and let him, you know, X and O. But. Right. I would not see him that so much comes the head coaching job now of, you know, he is the face of your franchise along with your quarterback, and he is the, you know, and also guys at times are looking for more than just X’s and O’s, and I. Maybe they’re looking to have an offensive coordinator. That could be it, too. I don’t know.
David Campbell: That’s true. So not to put words in your mouth, Terry, but it seems like you’re kind of. You’d like to see them hire Schwartz or McDermott because of the experience and the proven track record. Is that where you’re at with this whole thing?
Terry Pluto: I mean, I like McDermott’s resume now. Maybe there’s something like the last year he kind of lost it in some way. I don’t know. That’s their job to find out. But at least you’ve got that now. Schwartz is interesting because he was his last year coaching, fifth year at it. I think his record was 29 and 53. I forgot to write it down there. He took over a team that was 01 16. So you really. You talk about starting from the bottom. You couldn’t be any lower in a place where the Lions had been. They were even worse than the Browns till of recent vintage. When you looked at the last several decades, and he got them up to 10 and 6 at one point the last year he was 7 and 9. But the tough thing there was he started that year six and three, and then lost. I think six is the last seven. He did have Mass Stafford during that time, a young Mass Stafford. So he had a quarterback. But it’s hard for me to stick a. What he did in Detroit 13 years ago to say that’s exactly who this man is today. Where you could look at. You could look at Stefanski, you could look at Harbaugh, you could look at Tom. All those. I mean, this is real recent stuff. So I don’t know what to make of the Detroit thing other than he’s had some experience and. But we know he’s a heck of defensive coordinator. Yeah.
David Campbell: And his players play for him. And there’s accountability. I mean, what you’re saying makes a lot of sense. Terry McDermott and Jim Schwartz, they have a lot going for them in different ways, but I think they could do a lot worse with. Than either of those guys.
Terry Pluto: And then the Buffalo.
David Campbell: The Buffalo situation, as you described it, sounds very similar to what the Browns have right now.
Terry Pluto: When McDermott got him in. Correct?
David Campbell: Right. Yeah.
Terry Pluto: Yeah. And he be. He made them relevant and watchable, and he embraced the Buffalo community. They loved him in upstate New York in terms of that. I mean, he was about kind of the right stuff there. Now, the difficult thing is, you know, I think in the end, Jimmy Haslam makes the call. Of course, I remember Joe Banner telling me this, but he says, in the end, the head coach. Sometimes a GM will let you do it. I’m sorry. Sometimes the coach will. The owner will let the GM pick the coach. There we go. Line them up. But often the owner is the one who steps in at the last minute and makes the call. Why? Because he owns the team. And like the Browns, when they brought in Hugh Jackson At 16, McDermott was a finalist for that job. And then Jimmy like Hugh Jackson better. And then in 2019, Jimmy let John Dorsey make the pick, which turned out to be Freddy Kitchens. The. The very deep Podesta group was pushing Stefanski. And so then one year later, yeah, it happened in 20. So that’s. I mean, so sometimes Jimmy kind of lets the GMs or the foreign office do it, and sometimes he does it himself. And that’d be an interesting dynamic, too. Who, in the end, who does he do that? And Jimmy might decide, I want the next young, hot coach, whoever that may be. And so that could end up being Yudinsky or mentor or one of these guys. I don’t know.
David Campbell: Going back to the Schwartz, McDermott kind of not a debate, but comparison. Yeah, I was interested. I was just looking at the final four teams in the playoffs. Right. And a lot of people are like, oh, you got to have a good young offensive mind. And so two of the coaches are defensive oriented and two of the head coaches are offense. Right. So you can go about it different ways. Right. Seahawks, Mike McDonald has a defensive background, and the Patriots, Mike Frable defensive background. Mike Frable, a Walsh Jesuit grad and former Ohio State Buckeye. And then the Rams McVeigh offense and the Broncos Sean Payton offense.
Terry Pluto: So then if you look at that.
David Campbell: You can get there. Either. Either way. As long as it’s right, the culture is right and the product.
Terry Pluto: Yeah. Vrabel, Peyton, extensive experience, you know, McVeigh, extensive experience. I remember when I was in Here we Go, I was in Baltimore a few years ago, and I’m talking to a couple of my friends high up with the Ravens, and McDonald’s name came up. He was a defensive coordinator then, and they’re raving to me, this guy is going to be a good head coach. They really believed it and thought so. And I know I talked to actually one of the person with the Browns a couple of years ago, same thing I heard. And it turned out looks like they’re right.
David Campbell: Yeah. I mean, he went from there to Michigan to help Jim Harbaugh.
Terry Pluto: Yeah.
David Campbell: Beat Ohio State, and then he went back to the NFL.
Terry Pluto: Yeah.
David Campbell: So it’s worked out. Yeah. Look into the coaches are Mick McDonald and McVeigh that are in the Final Four. So maybe.
Terry Pluto: Yeah. Your Irish. Yeah, that Irishness. The Irish Campbell clan came out.
David Campbell: That’s right. You got to put the Irish guy.
Terry Pluto: All right, so at the end, we’ve talked for 14 hours, and we’ve. We’ve really decided nothing.
David Campbell: Well, I think what you’re saying is that you would like to see The Browns pick McDermott or Jim Schwartz because of their proven track record, and the other guys would be taking a chance. Yeah, I summarize that. Right.
Terry Pluto: Yeah, that’s my thought. But what about you?
David Campbell: It won’t work out. It’s just a chance. I’m kind of there with you, to be honest. It’s just I don’t feel like I have a handle. We’re not in the interviews. We don’t talk to people who’ve worked with these guys. We’re basically just. We’re outside looking in here. And I don’t want to pick one of these guys because I don’t feel like I don’t interview these people. I don’t have their resumes, I don’t talk to their background.
Terry Pluto: I’m not going to pick on him. But I went through in depth. You didn’t Ski’s resume. What is that that qualifies you to be a head coach? Now, I could say this, it’s a different situation, but at the age of 24, it’s in to turn 25. I was taken out of Savannah, Georgia as a minor league baseball writer for one year. I didn’t even do the full season. I came in after the season started and one year at Double A and hired by a guy named Bill Tanton with the Baltimore Evening Sun. They had two. The Morning Sun. Evening Sun. The Morning sun was the big paper. The Evening Sun. He needed somebody young and cheap, as he was made very clear to a person who gave him my name. And. And I replaced Dan Shaughnessy, by the way, is in the Baseball hall of Fame because he had hired him when he was young and cheap. And Dan got a higher job and he went with me, which I’m sure. I mean, I know in Baltimore, the thing is like, Tatton hired another kid. I remember this older writer telling me that he goes, yeah, he nailed it with Shaughnessy. But then he mentioned some guy before that it wasn’t very good. He goes, well, so we’ll see how it goes with you. And I’m like, okay. So I was beneficiary of probably a Yudinsky type resume that still they gave me a job in the big league. So what am I to say?
David Campbell: Well, and the other thing, Terry, like a lot of times they have these guys in because they want to meet them and talk football, and maybe they’re not looking at him as a head coach. But you know what? Tell us about what it’s like to go against Sean McDermott’s defense. Like, that’s, that’s some. Some of the things they might get into where you’re asking about other people, and so we never know what they’re going to be talking about.
Terry Pluto: Interesting, though. The same. All these teams, the same guys that have float from team to team, interview to interview, you don’t see too many people like Monkin’s, the one that came out of Nowhere. By the way, I haven’t seen him interviewed anywhere else. Any thoughts on him?
David Campbell: Just that he’s been around forever and I think he’s seen it all and.
Terry Pluto: I think he’s a.
David Campbell: He’s a great offensive mind, but it didn’t work with Lamar Jackson this season. And so what does that mean when you try and take that and apply it to the Brown situation with some young quarterbacks? I don’t know the answer to that.
Terry Pluto: I don’t know either. I mean, my guess is he’s probably a pretty good offensive coordinator overall. By the way, I got some email. All he does is pass. Pass, you know, because he got that. So I looked it up. The Ravens are like third or fourth in rushing attempts. Derrick Henry was, I think, fourth or third. Again, the same thing in rushing attempts individually for a team now. They just didn’t. It wasn’t like the Browns, who led the league in passing attempts in 24. It wasn’t like that at all. But we’ll see. I find it odd, though, that he’s on the second round. He must have interviewed well for the first round. Or are they going to pair him with Schwartz? I don’t know.
David Campbell: Yeah, it could turn out that way. I mean, that would be a very intriguing match. Yeah, well, you gotta.
Terry Pluto: You want experience. That’s experience. So you go there.
David Campbell: All right, so you want me to run through the coaching hiring so far and then we can talk about the openings that are still there. All right, so the Giants have hired John Harbaugh. Falcons got Kevin Stefanski. The Dolphins have hired Jeff Halfley, who has some Ohio connections, and the Titans have hired Robert Sala. So that just happened today. We’re taping this late on Tuesday afternoon. So that leaves the Bills, Ravens, Steelers, Browns, Raiders, Cardinals as the 6. If I have my.
Terry Pluto: Where would you put the Browns in that thing?
David Campbell: So I would group those kind of close to the way I guess I just listed them. I think the Bills, Ravens and Steelers are probably the top three. Yes, group of three. And then Browns, Raiders, Cardinals would be in the bottom three for various reasons. Oh, you have it?
Terry Pluto: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, why? Well, first of all, Buffalo, I’ll tell you, you take that job, you better be in the super bowl within two years. That’s. That’s the expectation there. Ravens, you better get back in the playoffs and win a lot of games. You got Lamar. The Steelers are the Steelers. Heaven help you if you have a losing season. You know that. That would be it. And. And. But they are in that frustrating area. They have Won playoff games since 2017, I believe.
David Campbell: But they also believe in stability. And if you take that job, you could be years, right?
Terry Pluto: Yeah. If you end up being pretty good.
David Campbell: Yep.
Terry Pluto: Then you go to Arizona. You know, Kyler Murray, I guess they’re tired of him, all that. They’ve had problems there. The Raiders, you know, they tried Pete Carroll for what, a year? Right. That didn’t work. They got the. You got the number one pick. You got Mendoza. If you take that job, and the Browns, you’re drafting six, you probably won’t get a quarterback. At least you won’t listen. Somebody that emerges later on the process. And then, I mean, I’ve been hearing from fans. All right. I mean, use those. I think they got three picks in the first 39. How about two offensive linemen in there? Something like that.
David Campbell: And a receiver.
Terry Pluto: Yeah. Or draft. Take that sixth and move it down to 12 and, you know, pick up a fourth pick and, you know, go between 12 and 29, whatever it is, you know, basically kind of do what they did last year, maximize that. And yeah. Receivers and offensive linemen. And whether you end up going with Shador or you bring in another veteran or something, I don’t know.
David Campbell: All right. We do have a few emails from listeners. Run through those real quick.
Terry Pluto: Sure.
David Campbell: All right. This first one is from Terry Ramey. Terry lives in Burlington, N.C. he says. Hey, Dave and Terry. News just broke of the bills firing Sean McDermott. Oh, my. To me, he is the top coaching hire the Browns could get. He understands the Midwest vibe in the afc. He would be perfect for Cleveland. I sure hope the Browns grab him up if he is interested. Schwartz would probably stay. If you get a veteran coach like McDermott, can you imagine what we could do with him on offense and Schwartz on defense? What do you think? Could it. Could it work? And I think we already talked a little bit about that.
Terry Pluto: And he’s a defensive guy, too, so they’ve run through some bunch of offensive coordinators there. Brian Dabel, although Dabo became a head coach. But Ken Dorsey, Joe Brady, and there was somebody before Dable. I forgot who it was that Buffalo had because he would need to find a good offensive coordinator. But I just, you know, if they hired him, I would feel pretty good that at least this thing’s going to be run the right way.
David Campbell: And you’ve been writing a lot this fall and winter about being watch a watchable product.
Terry Pluto: I’ve been on this thing for years. It’s important. Yes. And if it’s not, then you really look at Front office and everything else and say, well, look, this guy, you know, cranked out seven consecutive 10 win seasons or whatever it was. I think that’s correct. And so it ain’t him.
David Campbell: All right, here’s one from Dennis. He says, hello. There’s an old Three Stooges scene. Stooge. I quit, boss. You can’t quit. You’re fired. Kevin Stefanski’s point of view is this. I never wanted Watson a gunslinger. That doesn’t fit my offensive philosophy, but I went along as a team player. Watson was predictably suspended most of his first season, and then his tough guy ego got him in trouble and he got injured in year two. The third year, the Achilles tear. Looking ahead, the Browns are stuck with Watson at his massive salary. It’s time to leave this loony bin. I proved myself there are greener pastures where I can do things the right way. That’s all from Kevin Stefanski’s point of view. Kevin wanted out and Haslam and Barry have their mess to clean up. Spin it for the fans and hope for the best. Maybe a new coach will save us. Thanks for that, Dennis.
Terry Pluto: Yeah. At least you’re coming to the last year of Watson. That’s one advantage. You can sell that. And I wrote a column the other day, you know, Kevin’s new job and Watson exhaustion, and that’s what it was. Because every. I mean, you go back and think about how many guys got fired because of Watson and. Or the Watson move. I mean, 20, 23. Kevin is coach of the year. They win games. They played five quarterbacks. They win games with four different ones. They go 11 and 6. They finish 10th in the NFL in scoring, and they fire the offensive coordinator like half the staff. That’s insane. Why? Because we got to get something in here to fix Watson. Well, then you got Ken Dorsey, and then that was the year where, of course, Watson was terrible to start the year. He gets hurt. You got Jameis Winston and you lead the league in one category. Well, two. You lead the league in fewest points, score and most passes thrown.
David Campbell: And that’s when it started to fall apart.
Terry Pluto: It really did. And that’s where you became totally unwatchable the last two years.
David Campbell: All right, this next one is from Steve Mulvihil. I mean, sorry, Steve. Shane Mulvihill from Oak Ridge, Tennessee. Sorry about that, Shane. Several more jobs have come open since the Browns fired Kevin Stefanski, including Baltimore and Pittsburgh. I think the Browns need to come to terms with the fact they have a bottom third job of the openings available. Yeah, and are unlikely to land one of the most desirable candidates. Yes, we were just talking about that, Shane. Great point. As are the Browns going to outthink themselves and bypass the the most logical candidate for them and Jim Schwartz. Schwartz is experienced and well respected by the players and is ready to step into the head coach role for the second time in his career. With Schwartz taking an interview in Baltimore, I’m worried the Browns will wait too long to make a hire and be left with a third tier candidate when it’s all said and done. Thanks for the great work you do and go Browns again. That’s from Shane Mulvihill in Oak Ridge, Tennessee. Thanks for that, Shane.
Terry Pluto: I don’t see the Ravens hiring Schwartz, but I guess you never know. It was the only place he’s interviewed for the head coaching job. My one concern with Schwartz would be, and I have no answer on this at all, but you know, he did miss before he came to Cleveland three years ago, two years for health concerns, his thyroid and that. So I would want to make sure that he’s really good physically because even though the coordinator job is demanding is not anything, there’s nothing quite in the NFL like being a head coach or what it takes out of you emotionally and physically. So that would be my one concern. But otherwise, I mean, I think, I think Jim can do it.
David Campbell: All right. And you know, if you have any thoughts on the coaching search or people you’d like to see considered, hit us.
Terry Pluto: All right, I’ll ask you this. Hardly come up here, hadn’t come up here at all and.
David Campbell: All right.
Terry Pluto: I think he’s interviewing in Pittsburgh, Mike McCarthy.
David Campbell: Yeah, I don’t know. I’m just like, why? Yeah, I don’t know.
Terry Pluto: I mean his record is pretty good. It really is. But I, it is.
David Campbell: When he, when he went in to get the Dallas job, he’s like, well, you know, I’m, I’ve been studying analytics and I’m up to all the stuff that’s going on in the NFL right now and then it didn’t happen in Dallas and I just, it just feels like these other guys would be better. That’s just my first take. What’s yours?
Terry Pluto: I mean, I guess I take them over, over McDaniel, but in terms of experienced coaches, but I mean McDermott, McDermott and Schwartz, those are my 1A, 1B and you could put whichever order you want. And these other guys, they’re in the rearview mirror.
David Campbell: All right, we do have one last email here from Chuck Laughlin from mentor and Chuck says, hey, Dave and Terry While the Browns while the Browns are beyond frustrating, they do give us a lot of things to talk about. This topic is dysfunction. It’s clear that the Browns have a dysfunctional organization. Regardless of what the unbiased Jimmy Haslam says. When one team has the worst overall record in the past 27 years, culminated by the last two seasons with a combined record of 8 and 26, the record speaks for itself. You are what your record says you are, and we have no established top 15, even a top 20 quarterback. And as we said so many times, it’s almost impossible to win without a good quarterback. That reminds me of a book title. Why can’t this team just Find a Quarterback? Stefanski is probably the best coach we’ve had since coming back in 1999. Unless the Browns find someone who is eager enough to be a head coach anywhere, the Browns will likely be the last team to hire head coach. After all the other spots are filled, then we will once again be putting together a staff of leftovers. And so the cycle continues. It is really hard to break out of the cycle. Thanks for that, Chuck.
Terry Pluto: Yeah, you look at that.
David Campbell: I bet you get a lot of emails like that, right?
Terry Pluto: Yeah, I do, I do. And I just, I really do feel for Browns fans and just it’s, it’s all. I’ve had a guy today working out and he was telling me about when he dropped the season tickets a couple years ago and he just couldn’t take it anymore. He said. And I said, look, I’m not going to convince you to spend money on a product that you don’t like. Watch it on tv, you know, if you want to go down there, whatever. But anyone that he was like around 60 went into the my dad used to take me to the games thing. I said the interesting thing would be how long does that hold for Browns fans. That’s why they need to become viable for a couple of years in a row so they could build another generation of My dad used to take me to the game. My mother would make pierogies like one person said, and we’d sit there and we watch those games, especially the four o’ clock game or the later on game on TV or sometimes she even snuck them into the games. And you know that that’s what you need that. But that happens when you have something to watch. I mean, when I wrote vintage Browns, part of the reason was as time passed, I really almost became angry about how those teams were put into the box of the drive the fumble. You know, you even go Back to Sipe with Red Right, 88. What are you talking about? They were watchable, they were fun. They were good guys, they were relevant. And now you look at this and you go, look how good those guys were. They ran into John Elway. You know, it’s kind of like McDermott ran into Patrick Mahomes and Andy Reid. I mean just it happens. Lenny Wilkins ran into Michael Jordan. They had some good teams in Toronto up there and they kept running into LeBron James. I mean it just that’s what happens at sports. Yep, yep.
David Campbell: All right, let’s take a break here, Terry. That’s a lot of Browns. And again, if you want to hit us with any thoughts, sports@cleveland.com put Terry’s talking in the subject line when we come back. I want to ask you about the Cavaliers, Terry, and if you feel like something’s got to give here after yesterday or if this is just as Kenny Atkinson said, there’s games like this that happen during the season. We’ll get into that and more when we return on Terry’s Talking. All right, we’re back on Terry’s Talking. Did want to mention a couple of appearances you have coming up, Terry? One is on the 28th of January, man, which is coming up already. And one is on the 29th of January at two different places. You want to talk about those? You want me to run through the dates or what do you want to do here?
Terry Pluto: Well, the 28th is be at the Music Box. The a really kind of cool slipper club thing in the flats. And it’s a different type of evening. I’m doing it with Regina. Brett used to work for the pine dealer and it’s called like A Night of Faith and Stories. We, we did this a couple months ago and it sold out. It was interesting to see Regina and I kind of wondered if anybody would come. I mean would people be interested in that. And you know, Regina writes sort of like I do, more like kind of from the heart. I’m talking about the faith columns and that pretty practical stuff. And she’s with the writes for the Jewish News now. She’s written several books by the way. She’s a best selling author in Poland. It’s really odd, but it is. She sold like 900,000 books. I’m not making that number up in Poland. Her and like she’s so she’s, she’s big deal over there and, and, but she will be selling books in English at the Music box on the 28th and the 29th at 6:30. There’s a brand new Barnes and Noble opening in Strongsville at the end of the month. And I will be doing, they have this area there for me to do a talk and I will be doing a talk. And if people want to bring books to get signed or have me sign books or of course it’s a bookstore, they’ll be glad to sell them to you. So I’ll be doing that. The music box, I forgot what they’re charging, but it’s a benefit. All the stuff, the, the gate receipts are all going to the Haven of Rest, which is my favorite charity. It’s where Roberta and I, in fact, we were there last night doing their service at the Akron City Mission, which is the Haven of rest, do that a couple times a month. And I’ve been giving them money and doing things for years and years. So that’s another reason I’m doing that, because the first time Regina and I did it, the beneficiary was the gathering place for people dealing with cancer. And Regina is a cancer survivor. So it’s a nice thing they put this thing together for those. And so if you need some faith, come there on 28th. And if you really need your faith tested, come on the 29th. And I’ll be talking about the Browns and quarterbacks and maybe a coach, maybe not. And again, 29th is the new Barnes and Noble in Strongsville.
David Campbell: All right, for information on the 28th, the faith based event, it’s musicboxcle.com they have an event listing there. And then Barnes and Noble is at 16700 Royalton Road in Strongsville. So check that out. All right, Terry, it’s been a crazy week. Plus for the Cavs last week they go to Philly and play a back to back on the road there and beat the Sixers twice once, 133 to 107. And then the second game was 117, 115 on Jalen Tyson’s big night. And then they come back yesterday on MLK Day. It’s a national TV game at home against OKC and they get dusted 136 to 104. Kenny Atkinson called it total domination. And as I mentioned before the break, like Kenny Atkinson said, you know what, these kind of games happen during a season. It’s a long NBA season and they, they outperformed us in every possible way. Is, is yesterday’s game something to be concerned about or do you agree with what Kenny said, that it was just another game and that they’ll, they’ll move on and they’ll be better.
Terry Pluto: I watched it. I. Well, to be fair, I think I dumped out with about five or six minutes to go in the game. I watched it on tape, and offensively I didn’t think the effort was terrible. I really didn’t. They just ran into a great team. I mean, Oklahoma City, they are the defending champions and they just, they were, they dominated them because they were that much better. David. I mean, they. What we’re seeing now, and I’m surprised it hasn’t happened earlier because I’m very big on this strategy. If, like the other team has a great player, I’m running two and three guys at him, make him give up the ball. And finally Philadelphia did it because I think in the previous four games, Donovan was averaging almost 40 points against them. So in the second game last Friday, they ran everybody at him. And that’s when Jaylon Tyson was open all day and kept making those shots. But I’m sure Oklahoma City was probably thinking about that. They look at that tape and go, let’s see if Jalen Tyson could go for 30 or 40 again. And also we’re better defensively than anybody else, period. So they really, I think they came at them hard. The Cavs did some really nice stuff in the paint. They really, in terms of getting the ball defensively, they just had all kinds of problems. They just could not stay with Oklahoma City. And to me, it was domination because they were just that much better. I wish it was like, so.
David Campbell: So, Terry, the Cavs, they have the highest payroll in the NBA, right?
Terry Pluto: Yeah.
David Campbell: Well, I’m trying to put myself in Dan Gilbert’s shoes here. And you’re watching that game Yesterday on national TV, a 32 point loss at home. Your team is highly paid. The payroll is their second apron. They’re supposed to be a title contender.
Terry Pluto: Yep.
David Campbell: And they go out and I know there’s been injuries and stuff, but like to go out and lose by 32 on your home court. And then there was this. This was a really interesting quote from Donovan Mitchell. I thought after the game yesterday, talking about okc, he goes, watching them defensively, they make the little rotations, they do the little things consistently. They’re defending champions for a reason, kind of stealing something from them. It’s watching their habits 1 through 15. So if I’m a Cavs fan and I read that, I’m like, all right, you have a highly, you have a high payroll with a lot of all star caliber talent, and it’s almost February. Why don’t the Cavs have those habits? I mean I’m just thinking like Dan Gilbert would be thinking what is going on?
Terry Pluto: Well, I think it’s also a philosophical thing. When Kenny Atkinson was brought in here, he was brought in here to jack up the offense, fire up more threes, become kind of like the Celtics were when they won the title in that they didn’t talk much about defense, they talked about offense and of course the regular season last year they delivered a top offense. But the problem when a team is kind of offensive oriented, David and sort of what I would call finesse team is they can be exposed by the grittier, tougher teams. Now where JB was the other way he was the defensive coach. Remember, embrace the grit, all that stuff which by the way took them from terrible to pretty good. They got to be pretty good that way but then they couldn’t score and that’s what. So that’s why they flipped it. So now this year you look at what their injuries out but when you ask yourself who is an Oklahoma City style player you don’t get a lot of names. I would say Craig Porter Jr. Is, Tyson is. Mobley would be although he’s not. But he’s just so talented defensively. Jarrett can but sometimes he’s not. Then you get into Garland is terrible defensively. I don’t know what’s going on with Lonzo Ball. He goes out there and stands in the corner and shoots, rocks. It’s incredible to me. Why isn’t that ball in his hands? I, I was told by somebody that he defers to Donovan all the time. He shouldn’t be deferring to Donovan. Get Donovan off the ball. If they are double teaming you all the time, get off the ball and have them run some plays there another one. This is a. This is actually the deal and the contract that threw him into the second apron is DeAndre Hunter and Hunter. Now Hunter sometimes looks like he’d rather be somewhere else and other times he seems engaged. But that and I like the Hunter deal. I thought that was going to work but you, you put and Ball was supposed to be good defensively he’s not bad but he’s right the way he’s playing offense now it’s almost. It’s worse than Isaac Okoro. It’s really bad. But David, they made three big kind of moves from the middle of last season to now for veteran players Larry Nash Jr. Ball and Hunter and all three have been basically, you know, failures.
David Campbell: So yeah, I’m just trying to. Going back to my original question, Terry, does this feel like something that the Cavs will just move on from and. And they’re going to just stay the course. And like, to be fair, right, they have barely had the same lineup for more than a couple of games at a time. Yeah, I mean, still out, right? Garland is hurt again. Like, it’s just been one.
Terry Pluto: Merrill. Merrill’s a big deal to them. Yeah, right. And you listen to Kenny, he talks about Meryl 6. They’re 16 and 8 when Merrill starts. Why? Because Merrill does some of those, those Oklahoma City things. We know about him making threes, but in fact that’s part of the reason he keeps getting hurt. He’s always like drawing charges and on the floor and he keeps messing up with that wrist. And Garland, he was never good defensively, but after the toe, I mean, just. It’s been miserable for him. And I don’t know what’s going on now. It’s on the other foot. I think they put together, they wanted this roster to score more, but then you run into these other teams and I do think that what happened is Indiana, now, Indiana is terrible this year, but last year, seeing Indiana, New York, Oklahoma City in the final Four, all those are tough minded teams. And that’s what Kenny Atkinson was trying to explain is. And he’s absolutely correct. It’s not about having somebody say, I need some guy like Kendrick Perkins or Rick Mahorn to go throw bodies around. That’s what we’re not talking about. You watch Oklahoma City, they just wear you out. They just keep moving. They’re double teaming. Like what Donovan talked about. Indiana, the same thing. They weren’t that super physical. Yeah, they went over your back for rebounds and stuff, but they weren’t dirty. This is not the Pistons, but they were athletic and they were all over you. The Cavs, actually, you know, when you sometimes see some of that, when they put together, you put Naquin out there with Porter and you and. And also Jaylon Tyson. You see some of that spark and some of that scrambling around. And I think that’s. Now this is on Kenny to figure out. And you know, I’m a Kenny fan. I like him as a coach and I think he’s. I think he’s a sharp guy, but he’s got to figure this out. He’s also got to get a ball back into the universe of basketball where he’s in the rotation and he’s got to tell him, we need you to bring the ball up. We need you to help defensively and you don’t have to just keep shooting threes. You are allowed to drop. There’s no rule that says Lonzo Ball is permitted, is not permitted to drive to the rim. That is not in the rule book. And remind him of, look, you may not be the same player you were before this knee thing, but you’re not this either. This is ridiculous. You’re better than that.
David Campbell: All right, so Chris Fedor has a story up today on cleveland.com like just the gap that exists right now between the Cavs and the Thunder. Ethan Sands, his colleague on the Cavs beat, wrote a post last week. He had talked to coaches around the league about how they use press conferences to call out players.
Terry Pluto: Yeah.
David Campbell: And that some teams find that as a way to keep guys accountable. It’s like, hey, we’re all responsible here. If I do something wrong as coach, I’m going to admit that I did it wrong. If I don’t think you’re playing up to your potential, I’m going to call you out in a press conference. Do you think Kenny should do more of that or what do you in terms of getting to where you think this team can be? What do you want to see Kenny do?
Terry Pluto: Yeah, Kenny could do that. More of that. He sometimes is more willing to admit what he got wrong. You know, we didn’t coach it well, whatever. And he could be more specific in the area.
David Campbell: But he’s very Stefanski esque and in protecting his players, isn’t he?
Terry Pluto: Yeah, he is and probably comes from Steve Kerr and that one of his mentors. But he’s got to look at this and. And kind of lay out that. All right. An Augie Basu reference. My. The great hall of Fame Benedictine coach, by the way, David, in the hall of Fame for both coaching football, high school hall of fame in Ohio and baseball. And I played for Augie at Benedictine and when things went wrong, he would say, hell’s bells. That was his biggest profanity you would get.
David Campbell: I said that at my high school too.
Terry Pluto: Hell’s bells, Terry. Then he stopped going, you’re better than that, Terry. You’re better than that. And then he would say you would, you know, you miss a cutoff man or whatever it is, but it would stick with you. I think he needs to give a Hell’s bells, you’re better than that thing sometimes to these guys. Because when you start with your better than that, you’re. You’re saying that I believe in you.
David Campbell: But there’s more there.
Terry Pluto: There’s more there and we need to get it. We need you to do this. You’ve got it. In you. And that would be something that I would suggest with, with Kenny. I know that the coaches have been as I mentioned before, perplexed by ball, perplexed by Hunter and like that’s the.
David Campbell: Coaches jobs is to get these guys to play well.
Terry Pluto: Right.
David Campbell: And like I said, it’s almost February.
Terry Pluto: That’s, I mean any, any they’re trying. Yeah but maybe this would be the other way to do it now. You’re right, David. That’s, that’s why they’re perplexed. Those guys are not hurt Now Streuss, by the way, now he’s an OKC player. If we ever see him on the court again, you know he would be, he would be another. I mean if you, if you want to build an OKC type lineup, you know, Donovan could play anywhere you got. Okay, you would have, you would have Donovan, you would have Merrill, you would have Porter, you would have Naquin, you would have Struse, you would have Tyson. I would throw Mobley in there. Jarrett and I’ve been a big Jar fan but he’s been, he’s disappointed me this year and, but just, and just as Donovan said, just more attention to, to that and we’ll see what, we’ll see what they do.
David Campbell: Now I’m not trying to over dramatize yesterday but like it just, it feels like something’s got to happen between now and the trade deadline and they’re kind of handcuffed on the trade deadline. I just, it can’t be sitting well.
Terry Pluto: Yesterday or else you know what you end up doing. You end up trading. I know the Lakers, I’ve heard, want DeAndre Hunter and they want to give you a bunch of garbage back and, but it might get you out of the second apron and you just do that and you give those minutes to Naquan Tomlin and other, you know, something like that. I don’t know. The second apron’s a killer. There’s a reason only one team’s in it very hamstrung.
David Campbell: So yeah, we do have a quick email here, Terry. We’ll move on then. This is from Joel, longtime listener. He says. Hey guys, just thoughts of an old fart lounging around recovering from bronchitis. It’s a small sample size of course, but could Tyson be the answer to start at small forward or a much more complex move? Could Mitchell move over to point guard with Tyson starting at shooting guard? What do you think of that, Terry? Thanks, Joel.
Terry Pluto: Yes and yes. How’s that?
David Campbell: Short and to the point.
Terry Pluto: Yeah, yeah. But right now if they’re going to continue to just go after Mitchell so hard with those other guys, then maybe you need somebody else to bring that ball up the floor. Now this goes against things I’ve talked about in the past. I remember when Garland was hurt a couple years ago and Mitchell went to the point. I said, I like this because it came from something Doug Collins sold me when I forgot who the point guard was that got hurt for the Bulls. And he put the ball in Michael’s hands, he said, because, you know, if the guy’s in the middle of four, it’s kind of hard to double team him. And Michael started averaging triple doubles back then, by the way, and now they didn’t win the title. This is early on his career. But he’s also said it made Michael think more like a point guard and passing and he thought it was good for Michael’s growth too. And we saw that when Garland was hurt a couple years ago when they had Strus and Donovan, the backcourt, that was pretty good. They went a lot of games that way. I forgot what the record was. It was pretty good. I had, I had all those stats and the Struths and Donovan, Mitchell plus minus together was very high. So. But this is what I’ve seen the last couple games is some of the most extreme double to triple teaming after a guy in a long time. And if they’re going to do that, you’re going to have to have him give up the ball and that’ll mean, mean others there or you have somebody else bring it up. I mean, Porter to me is amazing. He is absolutely has no position. I mean, he just, he just. I remember Wayne Embryo say, you know, some guys, they just play basketball. You don’t even. In fact, if you tell them that play like a guy in a position, they feel like they’re in a box. You know, just tell him, go run around and play and. And that’s what he does. He, you know, he picks up guys full court, he’s on the floor, he goes and tries to block 7 footers shots and sometimes he doesn’t. He comes from behind, he’s all over the place. And that’s again, that’s Oklahoma City, Indiana last year style of all. And so that’s. You’re just going to have to watch where the league is going. Yeah, they still shoot threes, but they’re going to scrambling style of defense. And the Cavs better figure it out.
David Campbell: All right, I’d like to move, I want to move on to the Guardians real quick. Terry, I have A question I’ve been thinking about the last week, and I want to run it past you. You ready?
Terry Pluto: Yeah.
David Campbell: All right. So the LA Dodgers payroll for this upcoming season is going to be over $413 million. And you know, the guardians and the Marlins are. I mean, we’re talking about a factor of four or five times.
Terry Pluto: Right.
David Campbell: Which got me thinking, and I’m seeing all these guys signing for 30, 40, $50 million a year and stuff. Jose Ramirez’s contract for this year is 21 million, and then it’s 23 million and 25 million.
Terry Pluto: Yep.
David Campbell: Do you think the guardian should go to him and say, like, hey, should they rework his deal?
Terry Pluto: Yes.
David Campbell: Out of good faith, or do you think they should go to him and say, listen, we’re willing to do this, but should we use the money to make the team better? What do you think they should do? Because. No, but they still want to win.
Terry Pluto: So I would give them, probably give them a bonus.
David Campbell: For, like, for this year. Just give them, write them a check.
Terry Pluto: $5 million or something.
David Campbell: Yeah.
Terry Pluto: It doesn’t have to be big, just we love you. That’s a we love you bonus.
David Campbell: And we can still keep our payroll to where we can bring in some people we want.
Terry Pluto: Yeah. You know, almost like it’s an incentive cost.
David Campbell: Yeah. I just feel like things have escalated to the point of insanity around baseball. And Jose signed that deal because he wanted to stay in Cleveland and he wanted the team to be good.
Terry Pluto: And he still does as far as I know. Now what I’m happy about, the Kyle Tucker contract with other is even like the Yankees and other going, what is going on? It has to reach some sort of boiling point so that the baseball could join all the other leagues with some type of salary cap and also salary for that you must spend some money and maybe this will do it because otherwise, you know, just piddling around. I mean, I got an email from a guy who completely misunderstood the situation goes, why should the owners do it? They’re making all this money or whatever. I said the owners are for the most. The majority owners are not the problem. Some of them, the majority aren’t the problem. The players are the problem in terms of not wanting a salary cap. But maybe Manfred, the commissioner has not been afraid to make changes and make some tough decisions. We’ll go after this and put the Dodgers, you know, put the target on them and say, is this where we want it to go? They can just keep spending and spending and spending and do you really, really want baseball to be that way?
David Campbell: I think the players would say yes, yes, they do.
Terry Pluto: And the owners would say no. But, you know, the owners do have power.
David Campbell: It’s going to be an intense negotiation.
Terry Pluto: If they could put some pressure on those guys. And there’s a reason all the other leagues, they’ve been able to get salary caps. I mean, even something like what the NBA has a max contract situation. No contracts are longer than five years. Most are fourth and they’re worth a ton of money. But it’s not like you’re sitting there going, oh my God, what am I going to do? You know, this guy’s getting 10 years. Scott Boros is, you know, trying to have you pay for his great, great, great grandkids to go to Yale. I mean, it just, it’s incredible. What the. Boris, the big time agent, by the way, that’s, that’s the reference there.
David Campbell: Well, we’re probably going to see some kind of a work stoppage, I think, before we see that. But yeah, we’ll see where that ends up. Okay. You did have a book you want to talk about this week, a John Grisham book, right?
Terry Pluto: Yeah, I did. Grisham’s one of my favorite authors and it’s called the Widow. And to me, after I don’t know how many books, I mean, John’s written more books than I have and he’s written a lot better books because fiction, all that is so much more challenging than the stuff that I do. And it’s a, it’s about this kind of second rate lawyer who has this woman who acts like she has all these assets and things and it’s, it’s a con job going on during it. But his ability, small town, you know, he’s good in small town southern settings and he just moves the story. And I mentioned it over the weekend and Mike Snyder, who’s a wtam, his wife saw it, ordered it and read it in two days. So.
David Campbell: Really.
Terry Pluto: So there we go.
David Campbell: High praise.
Terry Pluto: Yeah.
David Campbell: Yeah. I didn’t catch the Rainmaker, which was on TV a few months ago, which is a based on a John Grisham novel, I think, from the 90s, maybe. It was one of his earlier ones, I think. But he’s great at like painting characters and giving them texture. I think he really excels at that.
Terry Pluto: Yeah. And also, I mean, he just, he just says such a feel for the south and is, and I lived in, I could say this, I lived in the south probably about three years of my life. I was worked twice in Savannah and once in Greensboro. So I’m not just acting like some total Yankee who never lived down there. Now, granted, that was in the 70s and 80s, but I was there and it really. Especially a place like Savannah, which is real Old South. When John writes about Mississippi or those places, you know, that’s it. And of course, I mentioned that thing. One of my favorite authors, Wyoming’s CJ Box, with game warden Joe Pickett, is his guy, and he also has some others, and he’s a great read, too, so. And as someone who goes to Wyoming many times and he. He makes you feel Wyoming. James Lee Burke, who’s I like some of his novels and others write books are set in Louisiana, the bayou and that. I mean, you could just feel the sweat coming down and how humid it is and those mosquitoes buzzing and just the swamp and you know, is that an alligator out there or what is that? He’s really good at that. So those are all fun authors to me. To me, reading sort of the mysteries and some of the other stuff is a big stress reliever.
David Campbell: Yeah. I think the Widow is John Grisham’s latest book. So check that out and just called the Widow. All right, I saved this question for the end, Terry, because I thought it was really interesting, so I thought we would end on this. It comes from Ron Rischner. Ron, I hope I got your last name right. It’s R Y C H E N E R. From Hilton Head, South Carolina. He says, hey, Terry, of the three football, baseball, and basketball, which coach or manager do you think has the greatest impact on the success of the team? Which has the greatest impact on the team’s failure? Can a bad coach or manager still have a successful team? That is, are his weaknesses hidden by good players? Rising above it? I enjoy hearing and reading about your encyclopedic knowledge of our Cleveland teams. Thanks, Ron. All right, so I guess what he’s getting at. Terry, which coach or manager has the greatest impact on the success of the team? A football coach, a basketball coach, or a baseball manager? How would you rank those? I have my ranking here.
Terry Pluto: Good. Please rank it. You sent it to me. I’m still. I feel like I’m still in clueless landlocked looking at all those head coaching candidates who have no resumes. Go ahead.
David Campbell: All right. I think football has the greatest impact because there are 11 guys on the field on every play. If one of them doesn’t do their job, the play blows up. Things have to be working in synchronization. There’s so much detail and coaching that goes on in football and it’s, it’s just so intricate that a bad coach will never have a good team. Like, I’m pretty convinced of that. Number two is basketball. I think it’s, you know, well, let me do baseball. Baseball is my third one. I mean, you theoretically could put a baseball team out on the field. You could put your, you could put skiings out on the hill and he’ll throw a nine inning perfect, you know, a nine inning shutout and you have your best cleanup hitter hit a home run, you win one to nothing and you’d have to lift the finger. Right. So I think baseball is the least impact, although I know you’re probably going to bring up Earl Weaver. But I just think that baseball is the lowest on list. I think basketball is kind of in between those two where I think there’s culture in basketball just like there is in baseball and football. But it’s a little bit more hands off than football and maybe more hands on than baseball. So that’s my order. Football, basketball, baseball. What do you think, Terry?
Terry Pluto: Did I get probably one just because it’s like running the Pentagon, you know, all those things. Number two would be baseball. And number three, here’s why I say basketball. LeBron James hooked up with David Blatt to go to the NBA Finals. You either have LeBron James or you don’t. You either have Magic Johnson or you don’t. Yeah. Michael Jordan or you don’t. And here’s the difference. When you have a player in basketball, your foot, you as great as your quarterback is, he doesn’t play defense. Baseball there you, Unless it’s Tony Shohei, he doesn’t pitch and hit. Both LeBron James, Shay Gildas, Alexander watched the other night. They’re involved in like almost every play in the game. They could end 5 play in basketball 9 or slash 10, depending on how you want to count the g. That they’re in baseball and an army plays in football. So in other words, a star in basketball has a greater impact than the other sports because he’s just out there with everything. The coach’s main job in basketball is, yes, is some strategic, but also just managing these egos and personalities. And that’s, that’s, that’s where you run challenging things in basketball. But that’s my feeling. But we both landed on football first, I think just because it seems to be so complex. Even though you could say if you don’t have a quarterback. All right, so who are the four quarterbacks in the final four?
David Campbell: Well, let’s see. You’ve got Sam Darnold, well, we all.
Terry Pluto: Knew he’d be there.
David Campbell: Stafford, yeah. Back up to Bo Nix.
Terry Pluto: Yeah. Or Bo Nicks. All right.
David Campbell: Drake May. Yeah.
Terry Pluto: From the Patriots. Right, right. So you got a second or was May. Second year. I think it is. Second. Second year. Yeah. And you got Knicks who was considered to be drafted too high or whatever. Neither one of those guys was like, considered supposed to be an instant star. Sam Darnold’s been booted around and then Stafford, you know, he’s. He’s been elite quarterback. He’s battled injuries, but he’s got a Super bowl ring. But I would say none of them are your, you know, vintage LeBron James version of a quarterback there. But. So I could argue then that you got Sean Payton an elite coach and you’ve got an elite coach with Rabel. I think he’d been coach of the year and all that before that. And so then you. You start looking at that and the impact those guys have made with their teams. Obviously McVay is considered an elite coach. And who am I for getting. I just got McDonald.
David Campbell: McVeigh. Peyton McDonald.
Terry Pluto: That’s right.
David Campbell: McDonald.
Terry Pluto: Yeah. Up and. Up and coming coach. Up and coming coach. So that’s it. And then, you know, so you. That those. Those guys, I think, have real impact. And, you know, McDonald jacked up their record pretty quick. And that baseball is. It’s really interesting because it’s so much now driven by you mentioned or Weaver, but the. The analytics and how to do that. But I think the leadership element that we’ve seen from Stephen Vogt the last two years, that’s kind of Franconish. You can’t really. In fact, I know for a while Chris Antonetti told me several years ago, early on in Franconis period, Chris Antonetti said they even try to quantify how do you measure clubhouse chemistry in that. Because Tito talked about it. In the end, they really couldn’t. It’s almost like you know it when you see it and you kind of know it when you don’t have it. You could try to find certain guys around that help bring it, but.
David Campbell: All right, it’s an interesting debate. So you say football, baseball, basketball, and I football, basketball, baseball. So anybody listening want to send in your thoughts on that one? Which manager coach has the biggest impact? Hit us at sports.
Terry Pluto: It’s an old thing. I remember talking to Red Auerbach. It’s a name drop, but it’s true. I interviewed him for. From my book Tall Tales NBA 60s and 70s. And we talked about why when he retired or basically moved upstairs as gm. He made Bill Russell to the coach, player coach. And he said, one, I knew it’d be very hard to get anybody else to coach Bill, but secondly, I knew Bill as the coach would really make Bill as a player, you know, deliver. And because again, Bill Russell’s on the court back then he was playing like 42 minutes a game. He’s playing. And he didn’t have to play as much offense, but he would play some and he would just. In other words, X’s and O’s are important, but they’re not everything at all in there because the great stars impact the game in so many different ways.
David Campbell: Yep. And as you said, the NBA is a players league, so.
Terry Pluto: Yeah.
David Campbell: All right, That’ll do it for us, I think. Anything else you want to get into here?
Terry Pluto: I think of all the podcasts we’ve ever done, yeah.
David Campbell: This is the most recent.
Terry Pluto: That’s true. Memory of Les Levine.
David Campbell: All right. I do want to mention Terry. Terry did talk about his newsletter earlier in the podcast. You can sign up for that by going to cleveland.com Pluto there’s a blue bar at the top. You get two weeks free. It’ll be jammed full of interesting coaching stuff, which you can check out tomorrow at noon. It comes out every Wednesday, so have a great week, everybody. We will talk to you next time Terry’s talking.