CLEVELAND, Ohio — In this episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast, Ethan Sands and Jimmy Watkins compare the Cavs’ internal disconnects — between players, coaching, and expectations — with organizations chasing similar goals but supported by clearer identities and stronger cultures.
The episode ultimately asks a bigger question: what parts of those models Cleveland can realistically implement, and whether this roster, as currently constructed, has more growth left or is already brushing up against its ceiling.
Takeaways:
The Michael Porter Jr. for Darius Garland Trade Proposal Highlights Roster Flaws
A hypothetical trade proposed by The Ringer, sending Darius Garland to the Brooklyn Nets for Michael Porter Jr., sparked a discussion about the Cavaliers’ roster construction. While Porter Jr.’s size and elite shooting are skills the Cavs desperately need, the speakers argue that losing Garland would cripple the team’s ball-handling and playmaking, placing an unsustainable burden on Donovan Mitchell. This scenario illustrates a deeper issue: the Cavs have no simple, one-for-one trade that can solve their problems. Any move to plug one hole, such as a lack of size on the wing, would inevitably create another significant gap, such as the need for a primary table-setter, making any potential trade deadline move incredibly complex.
The Core Four Dilemma Creates Both Urgency and Paralysis
The Cavaliers’ Core Four — Darius Garland, Donovan Mitchell, Evan Mobley and Jarrett Allen — present a significant contradiction. While the group boasts a strong plus-10.6 net rating per 100 possessions when on the floor together, their actual record in those games is a mediocre 7-6. This statistical disconnect suggests that their on-paper potential is not translating into consistent wins, fueling the argument that a change is needed. However, a breakup feels equally unrealistic. The roster is built with codependent pieces, Garland’s current injury tanks his trade value, and the team lacks other significant assets to move, leaving the front office in a state of paralysis where the need for change is obvious but a clear path forward is not.
Competing Teams Expose a Lack of Accountability and Leadership
The hosts contrast the Cavaliers with Eastern Conference rivals, highlighting a perceived gap in leadership and culture. The New York Knicks, for example, held a players-only meeting after a tough loss, demonstrating a level of direct, internal accountability that the hosts feel is absent in Cleveland. Furthermore, the Boston Celtics, despite significant injuries and roster changes, are thriving due to Jaylen Brown’s embrace of two-way leadership and the intense culture set by coach Joe Mazzulla. These examples are used to argue that the Cavs lack a vocal leader willing to have difficult, honest conversations and a culture strong enough to survive adversity, instead relying on what the speakers call “subliminal messaging” and waiting for circumstances to improve.
A Better Strategy May Be to Wait for a Better Return
Despite the team’s struggles and the external pressure to make a move, the speakers suggest the most prudent strategy for the Cavs might be patience. Making a significant trade for a player like Michael Porter Jr. now, while Darius Garland’s value is at a low point due to injury, is a massive gamble. If such a trade were to fail, the organization would have squandered a key asset and further jeopardized its ability to build a contender around Donovan Mitchell. A more strategic approach could be to allow Garland to return, play well for the remainder of the season, and drive his trade value back up. This would create better, more flexible options for the front office in the offseason, even if it means accepting a disappointing outcome this year.
Coaching and Culture Face Scrutiny Amidst Inconsistency
The team’s internal culture and coaching philosophy are under fire for the team’s inconsistent effort and lack of mental toughness. Coach Kenny Atkinson, known for his “free-flowing” system that empowers players, is criticized for not taking firmer control when the team struggles, with his post-game demeanor described as lacking urgency. The locker room atmosphere is characterized by extreme highs after wins and silent lows after losses, with no even keel. The absence of Max Strus’ tough, outspoken leadership is noted as a significant void. The speakers worry that the team’s bad habits — being front-runners, saying the right things without consistent action, and avoiding hard truths — are becoming too ingrained to easily correct.
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Transcript
NOTE: This transcript was generated by artificial intelligence and could contain misspellings and errors.
Ethan Sands: What up Cavs Nation? I’m your host, Ethan Sands, and I’m back with another episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. And joining me today, Jimmy Watkins, cleveland.com columnist and we’re here to get to the nitty gritty at the midway point of the season. And Jimmy, we already know what is coming down the pipeline. The trade deadline, February 5th. And not only are fans and listeners heading directly to the trade machine and putting different scenarios in to see what could stick, different organizations are doing the same. The Ringer took themselves to new heights on a recent article that they wrote talking about the Cavs being the most desperate team heading into the trade deadline. They even proposed a trade between the Cleveland Cavaliers and the Brooklyn Nets that would send Darius Garland to Brooklyn for Michael Porter Jr. I don’t want to get into too much of the weeds on the salary implications on this just yet. I just want to get your initial response to what you would think about a Cavs team that had Michael Porter Jr. On it instead of instead of Darius Garland.
Jimmy Watkins: First, I think we need to acknowledge that this is the difference between the local conversation and the national conversation about the Cavs. This is an indicator of how bad things are. Typically, as a small market team, you guys know how it goes. The big wigs don’t weigh in unless things are going really well for you like they were this time last year or they’re going really poorly for you like they are now. We are so conditioned here because we are around these post playoff exit press conferences where Kobe and Kenny preach nothing but patience and they’ve been waiting on this core the entire time that Donovan Mitchell has gotten here. But this is a healthy shake of the snow globe here. Like wake up, there has to be urgency here. The rest of the world is looking at the Cav situation and say, well, they have to do something right. So with the Donovan Mitchell extension conversation looming, with how far in the Cavs chips are pushed on this season, there has to be there something has to be done to improve this roster because 44 games in the eyes of big ringer media is enough and in the eyes of many of us, I would say is enough to say, okay, this ain’t working. Whatever it is. There’s a lot of different reasons for this, but it’s not working. We cannot, as we discussed last night, we cannot, we can no longer play the well when Max comes back. And when Sam Merrill like Kenny Kenny last night saying someone asked him about spacing and his answer was, well, we need to get Sam very healthy. You gotta have more answers than that. You just do. You just do. So this is a sign of the times. Okay? That being said, I don’t like this trade for the Cavs because we are witnessing in real time how desperately the Cavs need Darius Garland to provide ball handling for them. The trade for Michael Porter Jr. Michael Porter Jr. As a target, as a trade target for the Cavs makes sense in a vacuum. He brings you size, he rebounds. Is he a great defensive player? No. On those Denver teams, he defended well enough to make multiple deep playoff runs and stay in coach Michael Owens good graces. He is an A plus plus plus plus shooter with size. The kind of player that the Cavs do not have on their run. Imagine if Sam Merrill was almost 7ft tall, essentially. That’s what you got here. Shot selection’s a little questionable. I don’t know how he would fit into Kenny’s beautiful game. Offense. Michael Porter Jr. Tends to like to take the shots that Michael Porter Jr. Likes to take. The Cavs could get him some good looks. Him in the vacuum I’m in on him for Darius Garland is trickier because now who gets you the ball? Who helps Donovan Mitchell carry all this ball handling, load? I mean, this would have to be. If you were to make this trade, there would have to be another trade. That’s the thing with all these Cavs moves. In addition to them being very difficult to make, there’s no neat and tidy one for one swap. Like, if you take Darius Garland out of the equation, you’re missing an archetype of player that is very hard to get in return while also plugging the other holes you have on your roster. Right. The same goes for a potential Jared Allen trade, though I think that one would be a little bit more manageable. Just Patrick, like we’ve said this Before, Jared Allen’s 60, 70% of Jared Allen is much easier to find on the margins than 60 or 70% of Darius Garland. To me. But Jared Allen’s rim running and screening and rim protection and like the whole package a little different. So that’s. That’s the struggle here. I like Michael Porter Jr. I think the Cavs should be exploring treys right now. I’m like 2/3 of the way there here. I just think that final third is really, really hard to cover when you are losing the ball handling that Darius provides. We’ve seen it this whole year. When Darius is not out there this year, their offense is not good. And Now Michael Porter Jr. Can help make up for that. By. I mean, imagine lineups with Michael Porter Jr. And Max True Xandor, Sam Merrill on the court, you’re stretching the defense in a completely different way now. Right. But you’re also giving Evan Mobley a ton more room to operate in the middle of the floor and going downhill. That’s. That’s great. But the ball. I could see the ball getting sticky. I could see Donovan trying to take on too much, something that he like. We. We saw it at the beginning of the season. They were okay without Darius. They started 10 and 6 and the first 16 games and Darius played like three of those games. But the offense was different and clunky. How many times did Kenny Atkinson used the phrase clunky at the beginning of the season? Describe this offense because they didn’t have the table setter. Darius Garland is a flawed player, but he’s a very important player to the style of play that the Cavs have chosen. So it’s a tricky fit to say the least.
Ethan Sands: Yeah, I agree with you and I think you get to the overarching view of this entire thing. Talking about the framework of Garland for mpj, not even the player analysis. Right. It cuts to a deeper truth about this roster. Donovan Mitchell needs a point guard. Right. We continuously have this conversation with Chris on this podcast about potentially moving Donovan Mitchell to be the de facto point guard. Then how does that wear and tear get on his body? Having to bring up the ball more, having to distribute, having to do too much. And we’ve seen Donovan try and do different things in the offense and he doesn’t necessarily look comfortable doing it. Like elite shooting guards are not as good as point guards. Just how it is, right? Dwyane Wade was never a true point guard. His role wasn’t supposed to be that. Even when they went and got LeBron James, they still had Mario Chalmers, Norris Cole, guys to help out around the margins to bring the ball up and shoulder that load of distribution and just ball handling as well. The other portion of this, and you mentioned Jared Allen, I’m still of the belief that Evan Mobley isn’t ready to be a true NBA center in this league. So that would go into the framework you mentioned of needing another trade, another big man to be added alongside Evan Mobley. Because I think the biggest portion of this is we’ve talked about the contract situation of this team, right? Larry Nance Jr. One year deal. Thomas Bryant, one year deal. Neither of those guys are reliable starting centers. The Cavs, again, when we talk about the backup guard positions, do not have a starting point guard quality player that’s on the bench, they don’t. The best option likely Craig Porter Jr. And I think we can all admit he’s still better off as a backup point guard and being able to impact the game off the bench, that’s just what his game calls for. So the other portion of this that I thought was interesting, Jimmy when you look at the statistics of the core four this season, there are still plus 10 points six when they’ve been on the floor together, but they’re seven. Six in those contests. Thirteen games this season that the core four has played together, one that should tell you just how many injuries they’ve dealt with. We’re not using injuries as an excuse for this team anymore. Kenny Atkinson and this Cavs team need to find combinations and lineups at work, but for the CAVS to be 76 in games that the core four is on the floor together, that should be telling to you of how this hasn’t worked. But they still need each other to find the balance of where they’re going to go this season. And that contradiction explains why a breakup feels unrealistic as of right now, especially with Darius Garland injured, right it’s very hard to trade a person and to convince another team that Darius Garland injured not only to one of his toes, but same toe on the other foot. It also puts more weight on Keddie Atkinson to solve the problems internally. As I’ve mentioned, it’s him leaning into Craig Porter Jr. While Darius Garland is out, or rethinking guard and frontcourt pairings to stabilize what he has on the bench and also with the starters. So with Donovan, Mitchell and Evan Mobley virtually playing alongside one another all the time now, I think we’re looking at different starting lineups that Kenny Atkinson wants to utilize to get those rotations and lineups set when Darry’s going to be out, at least for the next 10 days. So I think the importance of this is, as I mentioned, getting Donovan a point guard rather than having him as his de facto point guard. I mentioned this unit, but they’ve gotten more time together as of late because over 130 minutes, Donovan, Mitchell, Craig Porter Jr. And Jalen Tyson trio, it’s dominated with a 26.8 net rating per 100 possessions and a 96.6 defensive rating, which I think is even more telling. Even though Craig Porter Jr. Might be smaller, he plays bigger, has more ability on the defensive end than Darius Garland has. So Jimmy, I’m curious to your thoughts on all of this and how the dynamic of the Core 4 might make it more difficult for the Cavs to trade them or might make it more of an obligation for them to make a move in the off season if this team doesn’t get where they want to go.
Jimmy Watkins: I can tell you that right now, regardless of what happens to the Cavs in the playoffs, whether they win the championship or lose in the first round, Kobe Altman is going to be reading us those Core 4 net rating stats. Whatever day the Cavs get eliminated, like a week later, Kobe Altman’s going to be reading us those net rating stats and they’re all well and good, but these are regular season stats. We have seen over and over again that this team does not reflect its regular season profile in the playoffs. And here we have a much worse regular season profile, which is clearly not as reflective on the core four within the court together. But okay, now you need to find other lineup combinations that work. And I think that speaks to why. Why are people are positing trade ideas like a Michael Porter Jr. For Darius Garland, right? The Cavs are in need of players who increase their lineup versatility. Michael Porter Jr. Can slot across the front court spectrum and fit in with any kind. He makes every lineup that he plays with much better and makes every teammate that he plays with life easier on them because of the jumper, because of the way defenses have to view him. And to get a player like him, you have to give up something of substance in return. What? What? Another thing this reveals about the Cavs roster, it’s a little top heavy. Again, we’ve praised, and rightfully so, the work the Cavs have done on the margins to get guys like Sam Merrill, Naquan Tomblin and Craig Porter Jr. But these guys are not moving the needle in trade conversations, right? Like Dean Wade is not moving the needle in trade conversations. Part of it is their contracts. They don’t make a ton of money and it’s hard to get another team to give up a good player who, who is on the cheap, right? But part of it is also outside of the core four, who do other teams want? We’ve had the DeAndre Hunter conversation. That’s a piece that I would look at moving if you feel like you need to shuffle around the core four. And by the way, on the the Darius Garland front, you’re right to say, Ethan, that who’s going to trade for a player managing an injury as we speak, if there’s a team that’s going to do it, it would be the Brooklyn Nets. Because the Brooklyn Nets are. They have patrol of their pick this year. They are once again due to Michael Porter, the best season of Michael Porter Jr’s career. And gotta tip your captain, Jordy Fernandez, the Nets coach is doing an awesome job. Him and Will Hardy are kind of like these two warriors with like, they’re like fighting off the, the organizational tank side by side, back to back. They’re fighting a sea of of tank warriors. The Nets are saying, we’re going to draft five ball handlers in the first round. None of them are going to be very good in their first year win with this. And Jordy says, I will, I will win with that. And he’s. And he’s. And he swings his sword. And Will Hardy is. The Jazz are the last two years like, well, we’re going to manage Lowry Markkanen’s injury to the extreme in the second half to try to manage our pick, try to try to win with that. Okay, I’m going to develop Keonte George into a fringe all star. Will Hardy with his sword out. It’s, it’s fun. I love watching those guys go to work against gravity, essentially. But it would be the BO Nets. If there was a team out there that was going to buy low on Darius Garland, even drive into the skid with this injury, it would be a team like that. So I think this is actually not a bad fake trade, but I also just think that the Cavs are too stubborn and they’re too, they’re too in it. Like their best path forward is probably just figuring it out internally. Like I said, it’s very hard for me to find a one for one trade out there that unlocks whatever is clogging the drain for the Cavs right now. They just need to do better. They need to try harder, they need to lock in more. These are the frustrating things to hear from a fan base because you’re fed up watching this team not do those things. So I understand if you want change, but I don’t know that change is necessarily going to be a good thing for this team. The other thing is, even if the Cavs gave him truth serum and they said, all right, we’re cooked this year, we’re not going to win the east, we’re not going to come close. We know we’re going to need to make changes at the end of this year, I think it would still behoove them to try to get the assets that they have right now and drive them up, get the value up as much as they possibly can. Like, even if you, even if you think it’s going to be a second round out, you would still, I think you would still as the Cavs rather bet on Darius Garland having a good final month and a half of the season or Jared Allen hap looking like 82 game Mr. Reliable Jared Allen again, maybe less so on the Jared Allen front. But Darius Garland for sure. I think his, his trade value ceiling is higher than Michael Porter Jr’s trade value ceiling. Does that make sense? So like if The Michael Porter Jr. Move doesn’t work out, you’ve already made a huge chess move, spent a big time asset in Darius Garland to get him in here and it didn’t work. So now what, right now? What are you selling to Donovan Mitchell now? What are you doing around Evan Mobile now? Now it’s like we might just have to blow this whole thing up. I think if you let it breathe a little bit, there is a potential. Even if you flame out in the playoffs again, there’s a potential for you to get a better return for a Darius Garland down the road than you would right now. Of course, the opposite is true too. If you let this thing linger too long, too long and he keeps getting hurt or, you know, he doesn’t look like himself, then maybe this is the peak of his, his value. It’s, it’s strategic, it’s tricky. So I don’t envy Kobe Altman right now, I guess, is what I’m saying.
Ethan Sands: So let’s look at the contracts very quickly as well. Right. Michael Porter Jr’s contract ends after the 2026, 2027 year. You know who else’s contract ends after that? All right, not Darius Garland, but you know where I was going there, Darius Garland’s contract ends after the 2027, 2028 year. Right? We’ve talked about it on this podcast. I mentioned it briefly earlier about the one year deals that the Cavs already have. But there’s also players on this team who they have to make decisions on. Lonzo Ball, Dean Wade, Craig Porter Jr. Again, the team could look very different. But also what are you selling to Donovan Mitchell? Michael Porter Jr. Is going to be here for the rest of this season, maybe next year. And then depending on that, he’s definitely going to look for the most money anywhere else. Right. So the contracts make sense. But I also think for Darius, and you talk about the train value, there’s also the chance that it decreases. There’s a chance that he gets hurt more. He re aggravates the left or the right great toe. You pick your poison at that point because of how hard he’s going to try and come back. But you’re absolutely right. If he has a great playoff series, which we’ve all still been waiting for, that would uptick his value in the offseason trade market. Even in that case, Jimmy, I think, as you mentioned, Kobe Altman would then point to, hey, he had a great playoff series. We’re going to keep him around, see what he’s going to be able to do next year. This is only year four of the core four. You know, Boston had seven seasons with Jaylen Brown and Jason Tate, so I’m more so on the forefront of Donovan Mitchell needs a point guard. Donovan Mitchell needs Darius Garland. The Cavs need Darius Garland. You know who also needs Darius Garland? The bigs. Jared Allen. Evan Mobley. Need Darius Garland to get them the ball efficiently in the pocket. Nobody has the same precise passing. Maybe you can make the argument that Max Struz has the best two man game with Evan Mobley and Jared Allen, but Darius Garland has better passing efficiency when it comes to those guys and getting the ball in the pocket, in the spaces where they can create and all of those things. So no, this is not me hyping up Darius Garland to say that he has had a great season. I’m saying that the Cavs structurally need his success to get to where they want to go based on the roster that they’ve constructed. And that’s basically their own doing because every piece of the core four needs one another and they rely on one another. And that’s part of the reason that they thought Donovan Mitchell coming here and being the leader that he is, was going to work and to empower all of them. Remember the grown man conversations a couple years ago after Darius Garland was not requesting a trade if Donovan Mitchell was coming back because of the extension that he had that summer? There’s so many underlying themes that we haven’t truly seen the outcome of and I think that’s what the Cavs are waiting on as well.
Jimmy Watkins: Do you want a big, big picture and this is, we were talking about this last night, the difference between Shea and Donovan Mitchell. Donovan Mitchell needs a point guard. Shea is the point guard. You conclude that Donovan Mitchell needs a point guard or even like a donovan Mitchell needs A1A, A1A and or someone who can share the offensive workload on equal footing. I think that goes into the conversation of how gung ho am I about giving this guy a supermax extension that bleeds into his 30s right now we’re getting super far revealed here, but I just, I Think we’re circling around it in a bunch of different ways, but we are realizing as a Cavs viewing public collectively that while all of these players, the core four, have many positive attributes individually and it has been. I think they’ve done a great job of re energizing basketball in the city. The attendance is in a great place, the energy’s in a great place. When they’re playing well, those people will. The fan, these fans will let you know when you, when you’re stinking. They will boo you off the court, as they have done several times this year. I think we’re collectively coming to the realization, hey, the Core 4 is knit, right? Core 4, isn’t it? Donovan Mitchell needs a point guard. Point guard that they have is very hard to upgrade on, but he has his own flaws on defense and with durability and his playoff performance. Evan Mobley, unicorn. That rainbow and that, that horse horn is not quite as shiny as it used to be.
Ethan Sands: Did somebody steal the pot of gold underneath the rainbow?
Jimmy Watkins: And yeah, something like. Or maybe he’s just like a, A minotaur. Just like a less rare, maybe a little bit of a less pretty mythical creature. Something like that. He just, He’s a great defensive player. Great defensive player. One of the best in the league. He can get you 18 a game. He’s. He’s growing as a passer, right? That last, that, that leap from like 90% awesome to 100% awesome. We’re just not seeing it. I think he’d be the guy that they would choose to go forward and build the. Build with the most. Right. Jared Allen is an incredible rim running center. He’s done well to shield Evan from the beating that you take as a full time five man in the NBA. But he doesn’t close as many fourth quarters as he used to. The motor comes and goes a little bit more often these days than you would like. Like it’s by. It may have just run its course. It may have just run its course. Maybe it’s just. Again, this isn’t going to happen now, but these conversations where we keep having this, the circular conversation about this team needs to change something, but I don’t know if that change is going to do what this core needs it to do. I think that just that speaks on. Maybe the core is maxed out. Maybe the ceiling for this team isn’t as high as. As they showed last year.
Ethan Sands: Well, Jimmy, let’s take a look around the league real quick because as we know, the Cavs are the seventh seed in the Eastern Conference as we record this podcast and and they’re hoping to get into the top four at least before the playoffs begin. That’s the goal for this Cavs team. But there’s two teams ahead of them that are not only being led better, but have more psycho energy and also have reliable players on on their floor. And I want to start from the top down and this is a surprise, but the Boston Celtics are the second seed of in the Eastern Conference at 26 and 16. They’re three games ahead of the Cleveland Cavaliers and they’re being led by Jaylen Brown. And don’t get any credit away from him, Joe Mazur, because these two guys have the same mentality, they’re on the same page. That entire locker room, the entire organization from the top down is low key psycho because they understood what everybody thought about them coming into the season. I don’t know if anybody was taking the Boston Celtics extremely seriously with Jayson Tatum gone, trading away Drew Holiday, trading away Chris Ox Porzingis and then bringing in an Anthony Simons and trying to figure out how they were going to utilize him and also potentially going to trade him when the deal first got done. But Jimmy, this gets to the point of the Cavs don’t have a two way player at the caliber of Jaylen Brown. A person that not only takes the responsibility offensively, but he’s the primary defensive stopper by choice and he’s the emotional anchor for a Boston team many assumed would be resting this season. As I mentioned, that two way responsibility, leadership and mental toughness are why the Celtics remain feared. And to me, Jimmy, I think Jaylen Brown is rising to potentially be the best player in the Eastern Conference and potentially being the best two way player in the East. And you could argue that in the league he could be the best two way option as well. And I think the most interesting part of this is not only are the Boston Celtics the second seed currently, but they’re gearing up for Jayson Tatum to potentially make a return. He went through an extensive workout where the media were able to watch. He was dunking, he was doing quick movements, he was going off of that injured Achilles leg. I just think the Cavs are trying to find a way to match the energy of so many teams around the league and we talk about how great the organization is from top down, but then there’s levels to this. We had this conversation yesterday about the players, but there’s levels to this when it comes to organizational structure, belief, leadership and how the team is on the same Page and I think the Boston Celtics might have the best representation of that, at least in the Eastern Conference, because you could argue the Oklahoma City Thunder are doing it better than anybody. But in this conversation, Jimmy, where do you pose Jaylen Brown in the east when it comes to players, two way guys in the NBA? And also just how surprised or how impactful do you think his play could be coming down the stretch when it comes to the playoff orientation of the season?
Jimmy Watkins: Yeah, Jalen Brown’s a top five two way player in the NBA right now. Point blank period. He’s leading a depleted roster, a roster that, let’s be honest, the Celtics designed not quite to tank, but they left the door open for it. Their, their goal of last off season was to cut money, get under the second apron. I wouldn’t be surprised still if they made another trade to cut money at the deadline to get under the first apron to open up flexibility going forward because I would love to see them go for it. I think. Sidebar I think the Celtics, the Knicks and the Pistons could all be very active at the trade deadline. I think all three of those teams could make meaningful moves toward winning a championship at the deadline. Like adding real impact players if the impact players are there to be had. Right? Takes two to tango. But Jaylen Brown, Joe Missoula, Derek White, and I guess Peyton Pritchard, like those four guys have been the torch bearers of a culture that was set by guys who aren’t playing right now, and they’ve done an incredible job of maintaining that intensity. The Celtics are good because they shoot a lot of threes and the Celtics are good because they play tenacious defense. I think they’re only like 14th in the league in defense, but boy, do they make you work. Okay. They got a lot of, they got a lot of guys. Your Jordan Walshes of the world. Those guys. Those guys are pesty and they are out there to bring energy. They outwork a lot of teams. They are built for the regular season in that regard. They outwork you. And if you want to hold up a mirror to the Cavs, look at the Celtics right now. If you want to talk culture, culture can be this like amorphous. Hard to understand, hard to see even for us when we get peaks behind the curtain. Like what is culture really? I’ll tell you what culture is. Culture is your best player is out for half the season. You trade two more guys to save money because you’re thinking this is going to be a gap year and your other best player says that ain’t happening. I’m going to prove finally, I’m taking this as a challenge and I’m proof finally that I can be the best player on a contending team. All that noise about like Jason Tatum should have won the finals mvp and that’s his team. That’s their team. They share that. Jalen Brown is proving right now without Jason Tatum, I can be, I can fill those shoes. And meanwhile the Cavs, you know, we can cry about injuries all we want. Donovan Mitchell is playing basketball. That’s their Jayson Tatum. He’s out there. He’s out there. He played career best basketball and they kept all their pieces. What’s the next excuse? The Celtics stripped their roster. And by the way, kudos to the Celtics development team too. They’re these guys like Josh Minot and Luca Garza reviving his career as an incredible stretch big like Anthony Simons, contributing to winning. Like all that stuff is part of this. And the Cavs do that to a lesser extent too. With your Craig Porter juniors and your DN ways. We’ve been over that stuff. But that buy in part the little things that when we were talking about habits, the 1 through 15, extra rotations, never cutting any corners whatever, all the, all the BS cliche things that we kind of roll our eyes at that Donovan was talking about the Thunder doing last night. The Celtics do that and you see the difference. You see the difference. Again, the Cavs, for as many injuries that they have had throughout the season on any given night, are much more talented than the Boston Celtics. And yet the Celtics are surging. The east should frankly be quivering at the idea that Jason Tatum is going to come back because that conference is. Is so wide open and if he gets any kind of Runway to get his feet under him even again. I’m not expecting Jason Tatum to come back and be 25 a game his usual self. But if Jayson Tatum can just be like a productive 3 and D win, which I think is very much within the realm of possibility. These guys have as much of a chance to win the east as everybody else. And they’ve built it on everything that the Cavs don’t have right now. Everything that the Cavs don’t have right now. If you want to, if you want to hold mirror with Joe Missoula and Kenny Atkinson and the way that they run their. Their teams, you can do that too. You can. Joel Missoula rules that locker room with an iron fist. He makes sure that those guys know how psycho he is. And to Ethan’s point about messaging in public. That portrayal is consistent in everything that Joe Missoula does. Kenny brought in this free flowing system and gave players a ton of ownership and that’s all well and good, but this thing is a spectrum and you have to be able to pull back and take control when it’s time for that. And clearly the Cavs are having trouble with that right now. I don’t think it’s fair to put it all Kenny’s feet. I don’t think frankly, millionaire all star basketball players should need that significant of a kick in the rear to go out there and do their jobs right. I think that’s pretty intuitive. But when they do, that’s your job, Kenny. And clearly it’s not happening right now.
Ethan Sands: And we’ll get there. Jimmy, that that’ll be our last section because there’s another team that I want to point to that did it literally yesterday. But before that, I do want to reference your salary dump proposition for the Cleveland Cavaliers when it comes to DeAndre Hunter. And I would retort saying that if the Boston Celtics are going to be making a run in the Eastern Conference, as we both believe, if Jason Tatum comes back and even if he doesn’t, that they could be capable of doing or even just playing the Cavs in the second round. That’s the whole reason that the Cavs traded for DeAndre Hunter to go up against the Boston Celtics, to be able to be one of the wing defenders, to take on responsibility of guarding Jayson Tatum or Jaylen Brown right alongside maybe at this point Jaylon Tyson. And knowing that, knowing the physicality it calls for, knowing the offensive production that it would require from DeAndre Hunter and knowing the reason, obviously they liked DeAndre Hunter for multiple years now, but they thought again going back to two years ago now that after the Eastern Conference semifinals flame out against the Boston Celtics, they needed more physicality around the wing to be able to compete with a team like this. And DeAndre Hunter was supposed to be the missing piece. We’ve continued to have this conversation, but if Boston ends up being a team that the Cavs play in the postseason, they have planned to use DeAndre Hunter in a certain way because of what he can do and what he has shown the potential of doing, whether or not he does it or is in an upswing of what he’s done over the last couple of weeks. Weeks is still to be said. But I want to circle back to what we were talking about, accountability and how the Cavs have had player led film sessions. And while the coaches might still be in the room. And Kenny Atkinson has talked about the guys running it more so and even Max Stru being there and maybe being the loudest voice in those conversations. The New York Knicks had a player led meeting at after their loss to the Dallas Mavericks last night, and that was telling to me because there were no coaches involved. There was legitimately. Jalen Brunson was tired of it. They talked about it in their press conferences after the game in their scrums about how the fans were booing them. And Jalen Brunson and Karl Anthony Towns both reiterated, saying that they were not surprised and they would boo them too. Obviously, Donovan Mitchell has said a similar tone to that. Darius Garland said that he didn’t hear the boos, even though it was like the third or fourth time that they had been booed in that home stretch. But my point in this is Jalen Brunson calling out his team. Being a leader, calling it exactly right after a loss is incredibly important. I think it was NBA on ESPN was reporting this. So it tells you that this was supposed to be heard. It was supposed to be told that they were doing that. And it raised an uncomfortable parallel for this Cleveland Cavaliers team who keep talking about chemistry and camaraderie without evidence that the hardest conversations are actually happening. Jimmy, at some point, subliminal messaging and injury caveats stop working, right? Because belief, which we’ve talked about on this podcast, whether they believe what they’re saying, effort that they continuously are inconsistent with in every game that they play, and confidence, which we’ve talked about waxing and waning throughout this season. Don’t waver this dramatically unless something deeper is unresolved. Last season’s health and early leads may have insulated Cleveland, right, given them a spoiled effect from those moments, but now they’re frequently playing from behind. The mental side of those games is exposing whether this group can challenge each other or whether they’re still waiting for circumstance, for change first. Because chemistry, to me, Jimmy, only matters if it’s strong enough to survive. Honesty that’s required in the locker room.
Jimmy Watkins: Yeah, I think that’s a great point. It speaks to this quality with the Cavs, where they know the right things to say, and I think they conflate doing those things all the time with doing them. When things are going well, it’s nice to say all the things they were saying about their culture last year and everybody loves each other and everyone’s out in front of the locker room, blah, blah, blah, blah. When you’re winning, you’re getting at something here where there’s a deeper, deeper level of closeness where you can joke around and have fun and everyone’s having a great time. You’re winning, it’s going well. How do you react when there’s a problem to fix? It’s like the test of a relationship, right? When the honeymoon phase ends. Is it the honeymoon phase with Kenny Atkinson? Is it the afterglow of 64 winds, what have you? The Cavs are out of the honeymoon phase for a while now, and they are handling it super poorly. Super poorly. I was watching the Benchmark last night. There’s a point where Max Strusch was getting pretty animated, making some. I don’t think he was like mad necessarily. He was just talking basketball and smacking his hand. He was getting animated. I think they miss him so much right now. His voice could be heard right now, but it’s different when you’re not playing. And he would be the guy because we’ve been there in those scrums. Max Truce will be the guy, the doom and gloom guy, the guy that says what needs to be said. The guy who doesn’t leave as much open to interpretation. And in an interview, when you ask him what’s going on with the team, he’s the guy that said straight up, we need to be mentally tougher. And the regular season, nothing we can do in the regular season next year means anything when it pertains to our playoff resume. The fact that he. It’s kind of the same thing with Darius, right? We’re on the court. You take Darius off the court, their offense kind of crumbles. It’s like, God, this guy’s that important. I get it. He’s an all star. He’s important. But should he be that important? And I kind of feel similarly about Max Schroos in that way. It’s like, okay, Max is Heat culture. He comes from Spoelstra. He is an invaluable, intangible piece to your locker room. I get all that. But should he be this valuable? Should there be. Should there not be someone else who can stand up and be the bad guy? It’s uncomfortable for me to, if I’m not there, listen to the press conference, or when I am there, be there and have everyone kind of just pretend like this is okay. That’s just a swoon. Kenny said again last night. These things happen in the NBA. Lots happen in the NBA. What? It’s 32 point losses. Deedly Dee on with my day. No, these are warning signs. Past warning signs. These Are flaws in your team being exposed. And every time you guys go up there and say, I’ll figure it out, you’re perpetuating it. You’re perpetuating it. And like we’re so far past this has to be corrected in a stern fashion. I keep coming back to this. It’s kind of nihilistic. But have you just lost the thread? Is it too far gone now? Have the habits deteriorated to the point where these are your new habits now? You’re going to be front runners, say all the right things when you’re, you know, win another game by 15 and out talent somebody and show us a glimpse of who you can be. And then when you lose, whatever, I worry that’s where we are.
Ethan Sands: You mentioned Kenny Atkinson in his post game press conference from after the loss to the Oklahoma City Thunder. First and foremost, that was probably the quickest or second quickest we’ve ever seen Kenny Atkinson get to a podium. And the first thing he said, and me and Jimmy were slightly late because we were running downstairs trying to get there because we had a little bit of a feeling that he would be quick, but not that quick to literally go from the floor basically to the podium. But the first thing Kenny Atkinson said was, let’s get it. I’m ready to go home and eat dinner. I’m sorry, I’m sorry, Kenny. We all want to go home and eat dinner because it was an afternoon contest. But your job isn’t trying to speed through this interview, this post game press conference so you could have dinner. It’s addressing the issues in front of us. And I wrote about this in my article about the mid season grades, the accountability, all these other things. The amount of times that Kenny Atkinson says I don’t know to a question asked from the media is appalling to me because I’m like, if there’s anybody that’s supposed to know, it’s you. But second thing that I had on my mind because of what you were saying, Jimmy, this cows team does not have even keel. They aren’t. When the Cavs win in the locker room, Lonzo Ball has this huge speaker that is right next to where everybody comes over to get interviewed post game scrum and it is blasting music. Then when the Cavs lose, it probably takes an extra 10, 15 minutes to get into the, into the locker room, all these other things. But it is dead silent and, and the locker room’s mostly empty and the energy has been sucked out of the locker room and to the point where Jaylon Tyson’s walking to go get into the shower after the OKC gay and has all his regular clothes on. I asked Kaz pr, I’m like, hey, can we talk to Jalen? And part of the reason I wanted to talk to Jalen is because he’s one of the only people that has kept it real with us this season. In his second season is in the NBA. He’s been one of the most accountable players on the roster. That should tell you something that the media themselves would rather talk to Jaylon Tyson than Evan Mobley after one of those kinds of contests. That’s how that came out. Then the final thing. Max Struz went through an individual workout after practice ahead of the Oklahoma City Thunder game because we talked about how important he is. Here’s what I got to see. He went through a couple of dribble series when he went from the baseline to the half court and then he was doing standstill from everywhere on the court. Max Drew still is not jumping for his jump shot. He is not capable of doing that. And this is we’re recording this on Tuesday. We are now two weeks into when the Cavs released that he was going to be reevaluated within four weeks. I’m not saying that he had a setback. I’m just telling you what I saw at practice the day before the Oklahoma City Thunder cake. I don’t know when he’s coming back. I don’t know what version we’re going to get when he comes back. And I think the Cavs aren’t trying to rush him back because they know they need him to play at a certain level, but they also need him in the locker room and we haven’t talked to him since media Day. Jimmy, those three things where Kenny Atkinson is when it comes to accountability, answering questions from us and again being a little testy when asked some questions. Then the vibe shift, the highs and lows, the peaks and valleys of this Cavs team and then where one of their vocal leaders is in part of getting back onto the court and how far he may be. Because I think all of those things are connected in this Cavs team. When we look around the league, they need to take bits and pieces from other teams. Oklahoma City, the habits that they have when they’re not healthy, the habits that they have for their mindset of identity. The New York Knicks, the accountability that they have in house, the Boston Celtics. Again, the mindset and the reality check of the star player willing to take on more of the burden of but also do whatever is necessary offensively or defensively to help his team get to where they want to go. We talk about tears a lot on this podcast, Jimmy. The Cavs are slowly inching down that list of tears.
Jimmy Watkins: Yeah, two things real quick. Number one, Max suffered a Jones fracture and they are known for being tricky recoveries. So it doesn’t really surprise me that this has been a process where we’ve, we’ve not always known where the next step is going to come for him. Like this was one of the second I heard that. Oh boy. Whatever. Whatever the timetable, I think it’s usually six to eight weeks that they give you on a Jones fracture. A lot of times it ends up being longer than that. I’m again, no doctor, but about where that bone is in the foot. It’s just tricky to recover. The other thing I would say is that Kenny’s reputation as being the mad scientist guy. He loves a good problem, a good basketball problem to solve. And man, what a dichotomy it is to know that is his reputation and then to have him come up to a podium and say, yeah, I’m ready to go home right after a game.
Ethan Sands: As I said on a recent podcast, maybe going to California and working with Golden State and Los Angeles Clippers for a season was good for him and helping him learn how to manage stars and all these things. I think he needs to go back to his New York roots a little bit, get back to that fiery, crazy, psycho kind of coach. Because we’ve heard from Jared Allen. He used to be nuts. I want to see it. I think the Cavs need it. But with all that being said, that’ll wrap up today’s episode of the Wine and Go Talk podcast. But remember to become a Cavs insider and interact with Chris, Me, Andrew, Jimmy by subscribing to Subtext. This is where you can send in your weekly hey Chris. Questions. We’ll likely do this on Thursday after Wednesday’s game against the Charlotte Hornets. So make sure you send in your questions and leave your name, city and state so we can shout you out on the pod. But the only way that you can do this is signing up for a 14 day free trial or visiting cleveland.com cavalry and clicking on the blue bar at the top of the page. If you don’t like it, that’s fine. All you have to do is text the word stop. It’s easy, but we can tell you that the people who sign up stick around because this is the best way to get insider coverage on the Cavs from me, Chris and Jimmy this isn’t just our podcast. It’s your podcast. And the only way to have your voice heard is through subtext. Y’ all be safe. We out.