CLEVELAND, Ohio — In this episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast, Ethan Sands, Jimmy Watkins and Chris Fedor react to the Cavs stacking wins while breaking down a gritty victory over the Orlando Magic that came amid mounting injuries and a brutal travel schedule.
Takeaways:
1. Cavaliers Demonstrate Resilience and Grit Amidst Adversity
The Cavaliers are showcasing significant resilience, winning five of their last six games despite major challenges. Their victory over the Orlando Magic came on the second night of a back-to-back after the team didn’t arrive at their hotel until after 3 a.m. This win was achieved while missing key players like Darius Garland, Max Strus and Sam Merrill, with De’Andre Hunter also a late scratch. According to the discussion, this ability to secure “gritty” wins, even when not playing their best, marks a significant shift from earlier in the season. The team is correcting previous issues with readiness and engagement, showing a better response to adversity and building habits that are proving effective on the road.
2. Donovan Mitchell Evolves as a Comprehensive Leader and Playmaker
With key players sidelined, Donovan Mitchell has shouldered an immense offensive and leadership load, facing unprecedented defensive pressure from opponents. This challenge has spurred his evolution from a primary scorer into a more complete late-game manager and playmaker. In the win against Orlando, he scored or assisted on 41 of the team’s 64 second-half points, demonstrating an improved ability to manage fatigue and create for others. His leadership style is described as empowering and forgiving, which has been crucial for the development of younger players. He actively works to build confidence in teammates, holding them accountable while trusting them in key moments, a trait identified as one of his greatest gifts.
3. Injuries Lead to Unforeseen Lineup Discoveries
The numerous injuries have inadvertently forced the Cavaliers to experiment with their lineups, leading to valuable discoveries. The starting group used during this stretch — featuring more size and defensive tenacity with players like Jaylon Tyson and Dean Wade — has proven highly effective. The speakers suggest this combination might not have been explored extensively if the roster had been at full strength. This period of adversity has allowed the coaching staff to identify new, reliable five-man units that can be used in specific situations later in the season. These “forced finds” have given coach Kenny Atkinson more strategic options and have become a positive byproduct of the team’s early-season struggles.
4. Jaylon Tyson Emerges as a Key Rotational Player
Jaylon Tyson has emerged as a significant silver lining, solidifying his place as a crucial rotation player and potential playoff difference-maker. His on-court chemistry with Donovan Mitchell on the pick-and-roll has become a go-to offensive set, often exploited because opponents place lesser defenders on him. Tyson is praised for his coachability, non-stop motor, and elite offensive rebounding, which is held up as an example of pure desire. The speakers believe Tyson is “built for the playoffs” and has proven himself to a degree beyond other young players who have received opportunities, suggesting he could earn more minutes than veteran Hunter in meaningful games.
5. Defensive Identity Rediscovered, Hinting at Future Rotational Fluidity
The injury-plagued stretch has compelled the Cavaliers to rediscover their defensive identity, leaning heavily on size and defensive-minded lineups to secure wins. The trio of Wade, Evan Mobley, and Jarrett Allen has been particularly effective, and Atkinson has shown a willingness to close games with this big lineup to protect leads. Looking ahead, when players like Darius Garland return, the rotation is expected to remain fluid rather than reverting to its early-season structure. The success of role players and the development of new, effective lineups have given the team valuable depth, allowing coaching decisions to be based on matchups and in-game performance.
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Transcript
NOTE: This transcript was generated by artificial intelligence and could contain misspellings and errors.
Ethan Sands: What up Cavs Nation? I’m your host Ethan Sands and I’m back with another episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. And joining me today, Chris Fedor, cleveland.com Cavs beat reporter coming from the Sunshine State, Orlando, Florida where it is currently 60 degrees and it is 11:30 at night, while me and Jimmy Watkins, cleveland.com columnist, are holding it down in Cleveland, Ohio where It is currently 10 degrees and feels like five. While things might have been all hunky dory when it comes to the weather, that’s not necessarily what happened from the Cavs when it comes to their arrival to Orlando. Obviously they ended up coming away with a win 119-105 but we’re here to talk to you guys about the game itself, but also what the Cavs had to do to get it. It’s the second night of a back to back. The Cleveland Cavaliers did not arrive to Orlando and get in their beds until 4:35am and were still short hand in. They didn’t have Darius Garland, they didn’t have Max Strutz, they didn’t have Sam Merrill, and DeAndre Hunter was a late AD to the injury report and was out with right knee soreness. Yet they still found a way and with this victory, Cleveland has now won five of its last six games, has won 10 of its last 14 since December 29th, and has taken six of its last seven road games. They’re the fifth six seed in the Eastern Conference and two games back from the second seeded Boston Celtics. What stands out is that these wins haven’t all looked the same, but they’ve all been gritty. Some have been defense oriented, some have been offense oriented guys in this recent stretch. More about the Cavs finally building habits that travel? Or are they simply surviving a favorable run while leaning heavily on effort and stars more than they had at the beginning of the season? We know this Orlando Magic team has struggled as of late.
Jimmy Watkins: I mean I think there’s some real, real staying power potential for what we’ve seen the last 14 games, the last, the last 24 hours. I should say in particular this is an easy this Orlando game’s a really easy game to just chalk up a loss. The second half of a back to back with the late DeAndre Hunter scratch with the Donovan said after the game that he didn’t get to sleep until like 4:30 or 5am today. A lot of life stuff getting thrown at the Cavs, a lot of schedule stuff getting thrown at the Cavs, a lot of opportunities to lag naturally and we know that they have, they have done a lot of that this season. But I think that this win in particular, I guess again the Magic are struggling to put their pieces together. They’ve had some injuries this year as well. But a talented team, a team that certainly knows the Cavs well and the team, a team that, the way they play can be a problem for the Cavs. Their physicality, especially when the Cavs are in this diminished state, can be a big problem for a Cavs team that’s coming off of a back to back against the Kings. And I will not call either of these last two wins the prettiest things you’ll ever see. Like a lot of struggles on the offensive end tonight, on the defensive end last night. But when you’re down a couple guys and you’re trudging through a tough regular season stretch, three and four nights like it’s a results based business and we’re not grading on style points right now. I don’t know that I’m, I’m not declaring anyone or anything back or on the right track or championship bound or anything like that. This is just better than what we’ve been seeing. It’s a better response to adversity and it’s a better response to physicality. The Cavs are bringing it at a baseline level. This the thing that has eluded them for a long time, readiness and engagement and the things that we were criticizing them. The most frustrating part of this season has been at least temporarily corrected. And that’s, that’s progress. That’s legitimate progress.
Chris Fedor: I mean, I think you hit on it, Jimmy. Kenny Atkinson even said pregame that he, he contemplated leaving guys back in Cleveland that a couple of weeks ago when he was mapping out the schedule, was this going to be a rest night for the Caps? And it could have been, but the only two that were left back in Cleveland were Sam Merrill and, and Max Strse. Donovan played Evan Mobley played Jared Allen played. I, I think at one point during the season, early on in the season, this might have been a situation where Kenny rested guys and left them back in Cleveland. But I think he likes the way that they’re playing. I think he likes the continuity. I think he likes the chemistry and the momentum that they’re building. And you’re right, it hasn’t been pretty and we talked about it a couple of podcasts ago that they’re going to just have to win ugly until the All Star break and we just have to reset expectations because for them, because they dug such a big hole at the beginning of the season and they were fighting just to become a playoff team. They have reset their own expectations. They’re looking at it saying, hey, like yes, we have a standard, yes, there is a bigger picture in play here, but we want to get top four coming into this season. They were the Eastern Conference co favorites. Now they are on record saying that we just want top four, we need to get top four and then we’ll figure it out from there, we’ll see if we can continue to build. But like they set this mini goal for themselves of getting back into the top four of the Eastern Conference and however they’re going to do that, they’re going to do that. I do think one of the byproducts of everything that they have gone through at the beginning of the season is just like falling into things, lineups, combinations, a certain kind of style, some go to sets and, and I think it’s fascinating that if Darius doesn’t get hurt against Philadelphia, we probably don’t see this five man lineup very much that we’re seeing starting games for the Cavs. I don’t know that they would have gotten to it. Maybe there would have been instances throughout the course of the game where Kenny Atkinson was like, hey, I just really want a whole bunch of size out there. Or maybe there are instances throughout the course of the second half of the season where Kenny Atkinson says, hey, I want like defensive tenacity out on the perimeter. So let me put Jaylon Tyson next to Dean Wade, surrounded by the two bigs of Evan Mobley and Jared Allen. But the five man starting group that they’ve been using during this stretch, since Darius went down, since Sam Merrill went down, has provided like a different level of competitiveness, a different level of intensity, a different level of defensive capability. And it’s becoming a workable five man lineup. And I’m not saying that when Darius comes back that he’s not going to be in the starting lineup. Of course he is. Or Sam Merrill, maybe Kenny Atkinson considers that. But in different points of a game now, Kenny knows that there’s this five man lineup that he can go to. Who knows when he might need it. But now that he’s seen the success of these guys, he can go to, it’s something that he can put in his back pocket and it’s a card that he can play. And Donovan was kind of talking about that following the game, going through the adversity, playing as badly as they did the beginning of the season with a level of inconsistency, it forced Them to find things, find things that they maybe otherwise would not have. Look at what Tyrese Proctor did coming off the bench tonight. There’s just one game, but that was a dude who was ready for the moment. Look at what Naquan Tomlin is doing, continuing to get more and more minutes, playing his way up the depth chart. These kinds of things don’t happen if the Cavs are full strength for the first 45 games. These kinds of things don’t happen if they don’t deal with the adversity in the first 45 games. So if there is a byproduct of the crummy play that the Cavs had at the beginning of the season and the fact that they dug themselves into a hole in the Eastern Conference, it’s kind of what we’re seeing right now.
Ethan Sands: And Chris, I think you make a really good point. And there’s a through line to the Donovan Mitchell conversation, right? Donovan is being guarded defensively in a way that he hasn’t seen for his entire career to this level, to this intensity on that end of the floor night in, night out, because teams are attacking him because they don’t have to go at Darius Garlett and him on the floor, right? So now you have the opportunity to learn what that is going to be like, because as we know, the Cavs cannot play Darius Garland, Donovan Mitchell together the entirety of playoff games. So now going into playoff matchups, you have that understanding. And I think we saw it with Donovan when he was first getting those looks. Defensively, he struggled a little bit over the last five games. We kind of seen him progress as teams were continuing to throw out the same kind of look at him that him being able to get out of these splits, having less turnovers, growing as an offensive guru and all these things, I think you got to see just the IQ that he plays with. And it kind of goes back to the same thing that we’ve seen from Evan Mobley right at the beginning of the season. He wasn’t an offensive focal point. He wasn’t ready for the swarming that defenses were sending at him. Now, after being playing off and with Donovan Mitchell throughout the season, he’s gotten more acclimation to that. And now you see him and Kenny Atkinson willing to split them up again. And Evan looks more comfortable in those roles. And to go back to Donovan Mitchell for a second, obviously we know he had 36 points. He ended with nine assists, just three turnovers, 15 of 30 from the field, which was needed because of the needed offensive creation. But the biggest thing for me was how he’s been able to produce in the second half. Donovan Mitchell either scored or assisted on 41 of Cleveland’s 64 second half points, finishing with 27 points on 11 of 18 shooting and six assists in that second half. That performance came shortly after Donovan Mitchell admitted publicly that he expects to be more fatigued because of how aggressively teams are guarding him. That’s the other thing we talked about earlier this season. Guys like Donovan came in saying that he understood that this team needed to get through the mental barrier of playing through fatigue. And there’s a difference between knowing it and putting your body through it. And sure, it’s not necessarily a great thing, but to have to do that this earlier into the season, but to have that experience, I feel like is going to help them down the line. But when we talk about going down the stretch of a game, Paolo Manchero and Donovan, we’re kind of going back and forth a little bit. But I, to be honest, am always going to take Donovan over Paolo in those situations. Especially when you have a guy like Evan Mobley defensively who you have behind you that you can rely on. So when we talk about Donovan Mitchell and his growth as a leader, his growth with experience of mental toughness and all these things necessary to help this Cavs team get further into the playoffs, are we seeing Donovan Mitchell evolve into a smarter late game manager rather than just a closer? And how much of that confidence do you think comes from trusting Evan Mobley in the defensive structure that the Cavs have created behind it?
Chris Fedor: Well, I think there was a very important moment throughout the course of of tonight’s game against Orlando, and it happened in the second quarter. And as it’s unfolding, the two teams were going back and forth. It was really, really competitive. But the time that the Cavs took control and built what was their biggest lead to that point of the game, Donovan wasn’t up there. And there was a stretch within that that Evan Mobley wasn’t out there either. I was actually looking on the court and I’m saying Donovan’s on the bench. Wait, Evan’s on the bench too? Look at this lineup. And Kenny went into tonight’s game with kind of an all hands on deck type approach because he knew that these guys were exhausted. They got in at 3 in the morning, they went to bed at 4, 4:35. Depending on who it was, they really didn’t get too much opportunity to recover. After last night’s game against Sacramento, everybody in the locker room was saying, how stupid it was that last night’s game was a 7:30 tip off and this one was a 7:00 clock tip off and it should have been reversed and all that kind of stuff. So that was going to be the approach that Kenny took going into the game. But. But that showed a level of trust, a level of belief, and it shows. You know, Donovan has worked behind the scenes to empower these guys just the way that he did last year. That’s one of his greatest gifts, I think, is a leader, is getting these guys to buy in, getting these guys to believe.
Jimmy Watkins: It’s funny how ugly this season has been to this point. Contrast that with how many uplifting stories there are on this team. Right. Like Craig Porter Jr. Dean Wade. No one goes back a while but Naquan Tomlin, Sam Ra, all these guys. Tyrese Proctor tonight, like Chris said, like in a season that has been such a struggle and uphill Boulder push, there’s a lot of fun young guys pitching along for the ride. And I think that is a testament. We’ve taken a lot of. We’ve asked a lot of hard questions about this culture this year. When the effort hasn’t been there, when we’ve wondered who’s going to speak up and hold people accountable, I think those questions remain. But I do think this is the flip side. Like when people are frustrated with the Cavs messaging and maybe they’re not as. Maybe, maybe Kenny Hackenson doesn’t rule with an iron fist as much as people want to. And maybe Donovan Mitchell doesn’t come down on as hard on everyone else as you would like him to. This is the flip side of that coin. This is how you can get a little bit more. This is how you get a Craig Porter Jr. To punch above his weight. This is how you get a Tyrese Proctor to come in. Sometimes Tyrese Proctor comes in, looks like a rookie. He had one of those games earlier this week. I came away watching the game thinking that’s the most that Tyrese Proctor has looked like a rookie this year. And it’s easy when you’re in a new situation. He’s in. He’s the newest guy out of all of them. To when that happens, to kind of withdrawal and lose your confidence, sort of be bashful the next opportunity you get. Tonight he comes off, comes off the bench. He was excellent in the, in the limited minutes that he had last night against Sacramento. I think he only played like four minutes, but he, he made an impact during those four. He made the one shot that he took that’s the. That’s the flip side of this coin. I still think you want more, particularly for some. Some of the guys who are a little bit higher on the rung here. You want a little bit more of a push, a nudge, a hey, what’s going on here? Evan Mobley, when you’re taking two shots in the second half against Charlotte, can we have a little bit more of that? And Donovan said after last night’s game that they did have a conversation about that. I think there’s a way you can massage those messages. And I think you see with the emergence of these young guys, the benefits of patience and the benefits of having a star who is willing to. To give them ownership. I mean, he doesn’t have much of a choice. Donovan Mitchell has paid. Donovan Mitchell is seeing a sea of bodies everywhere he goes, so someone’s gotta help him a little. Some of this is just, like, out of necessity. I need you guys. But sometimes when that’s the case, stars can get frustrated. Because it is frustrating when you’re as good as he is to see all these bodies and not be able to impact the game the way you’re used to impacting the game all the time, because there’s just so much attention. You have to get off the ball. The right play is to get off the ball and empower others. And sometimes when they don’t respond the way you want them to, like, it would have been real easy for Donovan to just quit on Jalen Tyson against the Kings last night after he had. He had multiple turnovers, where the Kings are denying the ball, and Jalen’s just trying to do what he thinks is the right thing to do and give Donovan Mitchell the ball. Ended up in two bad turnovers. Then at the end of the game, the Cavs go right back to him. Hit him on the short roll. He has the floater. Like, that’s what we’re talking about here. With Donovan’s leadership style, It’s. It’s forgiving. And that forgiveness is very powerful. When you are a young guy who comes into this league looking up to that dude, that is very powerful.
Chris Fedor: Kenny Atkinson even said it before the game, guys, that a big part of the player development of the Cavs isn’t even the coaches. It’s Donovan. It’s the fact that these guys look toward Donovan. Everybody that comes into the NBA that’s a young player has a vet that they speak very, very highly of. And for all of these young guys, their vet is Donovan. Tyrese Proctor’s vet is Donovan, Jaylon Tyson’s vet is Donovan. And they look up to him and they listen to him and they believe in the things that he’s saying to them. Dean Wade was even joking following the game. I was talking to him a little bit about his. His end of fourth quarter stretch where he was just awesome. He made that three that really put the game out of reach. He had a block again, just like he did the other night on the road. He had a couple of rebounds, he had a steal or two steals, finished with three in the game. But I was talking to Dean about that and he is like, I had to shoot that because otherwise Donovan would have been on my ass. So, like, Donovan has a way, even though it may not be as demonstrative, it may not be the same way that other stars go about it, but Donovan has a way of getting through to these guys. And when that ball went to the way of Dean Wade, he knew that he had to shoot it. Otherwise Donovan was going to be on his ass. And he joked, he said, I’m tired of Donovan yelling at me for passing up these open threes because, like, part of my responsibility, if I’m going to be out there in those situations and the ball finds me and it’s a quality look, I can’t turn that down because I don’t know that we’re going to get a better look within that possession. So I had to shoot that and I shot that with confidence. And I think it all kind of goes back to the foundation that, that Donovan builds behind the scenes, the way that he empowers these guys. And it’s different for everybody. The way that he communicates with Dean is different than the way that he talks to Darius and Evan and. And that’s what a leader does. But there’s no doubt about it that there is a Donovan Mitchell effect on this basketball team. And there’s a Donovan Mitchell effect everywhere he has gone throughout the course of his career.
Ethan Sands: Yeah, Christian, and to that point about the leadership aspect. And obviously you can’t talk to everybody the same way. You have to figure out what works for each person. But Tyrese Proctor and I’ve written this for the website for cleveland.com about just how those two have literally been inseparable, basically since the summertime Donovan took him back to Louisville for a practice, like to be a part of that. And Donovan most recently took him to St. Eds with Jamal Jones to just watch a game. And those two guys are just together all the time. And that leadership style is important. We talk A lot about the leadership qualities that might be needed, the voices that might be needed. Like, obviously, Donovan leads in a certain kind of way. And it’s not us saying that Donovan needs to lead differently. It’s that somebody else in the locker room needs to help him with that as well. Because as Kobe Bryant used to say, being a leader is lonely. So, like, if you have other people that are willing to lead alongside you, that makes that burden a lot less heavy to carry.
Chris Fedor: Jimmy brought up the the Jalen Tyson on the short roll. There is a clear chemistry building between Donovan and Jalen when it comes to that. And Kenny touched on it before the game when I asked him about it. And he was saying that, you know, part of it is the better defenders are defending Evan Mobley. So they don’t want to continuously put Evan Mobley in, in the screen with Donovan because now all of a sudden it’s two good defenders going at Donovan. Usually the weaker defender is on Jaylen Tyson because he’s still a relative unknown. And if he’s going to share the court with Darius, one healthy Donovan, you’re not going to use a better defender on Jaylen Tyson. You’re going to use your better defenders on Darius Garland and Donovan Mitchell.
Chris Fedor: And then Evan Mobley as well. So part of the reason behind it is, hey, they see an opportunity here with a lesser defender. If they’re going to switch, then Donovan’s got a good matchup, or if they’re going to blitz, then Jalen can kind of be the guy who’s in a four on three situation. He can hit that floater, he can playmake a little bit. But, but the other thing is before practices and after practices, before shoot arounds and after shoot arounds and Jalen and Donovan are going through that over and over and over again. And Donovan’s talking to Jalen about screening angles. Donovan saying, hey, when a defense does this, I want you to do this. Jalen’s talking to Donovan about what he’s seeing throughout the course of that as well. So the fact that they have built the relationship behind the scenes, something that goes all the way back to this summer in their off season runs, the player organized ones, they now spend extra time. They. They see a pathway to another opportunity to, to diversify the offense. And these two guys, Jalen and Donovan, talk through the short role constantly and they work through it on the court as well. And you’re seeing that chemistry continuing to build with those guys. The end of the first quarter, the Cavs went to that as their final set of the first quarter. You know, in the game the other night against Sacramento, it’s late in the game the Cavs went to it. Against Philadelphia, it’s late in the game the Cavs went to it. The Donovan, Mitchell, Jalen Tyson pick and roll and whatever the Cavs are going to get out of it, sometimes it’s going to be Donovan, sometimes it’s going to be Jalen on the short roll, sometimes it’s going to be Jalen on the floater, Sometimes it’s going to be Jalen playing playmaking and kicking it out to the corner. But that particular set has become really, really effective for the Cavs. And it certainly wouldn’t be that same kind of way if these guys didn’t have the kind of connection that they’re continuing to build.
Ethan Sands: And while we give praise to Donovan for that, I think we also have to give praise for Jayla Tyson for being more coachable in that it is so difficult to get players who are finding a group like we have seen Jaylon Tyson become arguably the best three point shooter on this Cavs team and yet he still wants to go and be in the half hole for Donovan. And he’s finding tricks with that as well. Like Jaylon Tyson doesn’t set the usual screen. He’s not set getting still and like putting his hands over his crotch to make sure he doesn’t get hurt. All these things, he’s using two hands and tagging the screener and kind of pushing off to gain separation between him and his defender. And that allows Donovan to have a window of opportunity to either get in the ball or find where a space might create and put it to the area where Jalen can go and get it. And then as Chris said, make the decision from there. And I think finding what works for you and when it comes to a second year player, because obviously we’ve talked about it, Evan Mobley screens a certain way, Jared Allen screens a certain way. And I’ve asked opposing coaches the beauty of screening when it comes to especially players like Demonte Sabonis of the Sacramento Kings. Like, you see how he sets DHOs. And Kenny Atkinson and Doug Christie talked about there being like three different ways that he sets these DHOs to create opportunities for the players coming around him or for himself. The other way is Jaylon Tyson being more of a soft screener and then allowing himself to create space on his own and for others around him because he’s not using that physicality. And it also allows him to play more minutes because he’s not taking that brute force the same way that Jarrett and Evan do as a smaller guard. But when we talk about Jarrett and Evan, and I think this is important, the Cavs and Kenny Atkinson have gone to this big man too big lineup to end games more recently. Could that be be because Sacramento plays with two bigs? Could that be because they’ve been playing with the lead more as of late? Yes and yes. But I think it’s important to note that the belief has been there to go to this lineup of Dean Wade, Evan Mobley and Jared Allen, because when you’re playing with the lead, Kenny Atkinson has talked about this, you want to preserve that. You’re allowed to play more big, you’re allowed to have more of a defensive front. But when you’re playing from behind, you usually want to have a smaller unit small ball lineup that allows you to have more scoring opportunities. So I’m curious, Jimmy, for you, do you think this is a shift towards size and lineup balance, a temporary response to injuries, or is it the clearest signal yet of how Kenny Atkinson envisions this team closing meaningful games? Because I think it’s a balancing act when it comes to the matchups and injuries and all these things. So I’m curious if you think this is a right now thing or something that can be maintained, especially in the playoffs.
Jimmy Watkins: I think it’s kind of both. Like, I think the Cavs kind of got bullied into rediscovering their defensive identity here out of necessity. And I would like to think that they’ll carry it forward because they’re learning some interesting things, relearning some interesting things about like the Dean Wade, Evan Mobley, Jared Allen lineup that’s been an elite defensive trio for a couple of seasons now. But Dean Wade, due in part to injury and due in part to waning confidence, has been a harder guy to play for the Kenya Atkinson, Eric Cavs because when healthy, this team is deeper than a lot of, than some of the other teams that Dean Wade has had more of a featured role on. And it’s more, it’s been more offense focused and when he’s not making his shots, that’s the one thing that Kenny doesn’t stand for is when, not when he’s not making them, it’s when he’s not shooting them. And sometimes he gets to the point where he’s not shooting them. That’s to Chris’s point earlier about Donovan’s always yelling at him to shoot him. He wants you to play, man, because he knows how important you are to the team’s success. So, yeah, I think it’s Darius Garland’s hurt, Sam Merrill’s hurt, Max Drew is hurt. You are running out of dudes here, and the. The guys that you can trust now happen to be the ones that are better equipped to defend. And I don’t know that that’s what it should have taken for the Cavs to get here, but it’s what it took. Kenny has leaned super hard into these defense first lineups, especially when Donovan sits. Chris referenced the. The no Don, no Evan lineups earlier. Ethan looked at me last night during the Kings game. I’m trying. It was like Craig and Jalen and Dean Wade and Jared Allen and maybe DeAndre Hunter. Like, the question in our minds was, where’s the offense coming from? But that’s not really the point. The point is the defense is going to create the offense because if you have that much size and length on the court, it can really help your defense. And I think this is, again, whether it should have taken this. We could debate, but the Cavs have found something. They have rediscovered their defensive groove here with a Dean Wade, Jared Allen, Evan Mobley pairing with, leaning into more of the two bigs, and that’s something that they can carry forward with them when everybody comes back. And I think that is crucial for all the ups and downs this season has had. The Cavs defense has been a pretty consistent downturn this season, and they need. They need to rediscover the focus, the personnel groupings that made them one of the league’s best defense. And again, I think circumstances kind of bullied them into it, but you’d rather have that than. Than not have it at all.
Ethan Sands: Jimmy, you mentioned injuries, and that’s where I want to go for this last bit of our conversation tonight. The Cavs knew they were going to be without their usual three of Sam Merrell, Max Drews and Darius Garland. But Darius Garland went through an individual workout ahead of the Cavs game in Orlando, continuing his rehab from a right. Right toe sprain while still managing that left great toe injury that he had offseason surgery on. He’s also been traveling with the team, which is a positive sign in terms of what we call progress and day to day functionality. But me, one workout doesn’t necessarily signal an imminent return, right? It’s more of a checkpoint, allowing the Cavs to evaluate how he’s moving, responding and still living with that pressure and pain that he’s going to have to endure for likely the remainder of the season, but because of that, a return after the All Star break remains very much in play in my mind, and not unlikely because Cleveland has also shown that it’s going to be extremely cautious because of the value of what he brings when he’s on the floor. But also using this stretch, as we mentioned on this podcast, how to learn these lineups and the functionality of them without Garland available, or even when he’s just on the bench waiting to get subbed back into the game. So I think this is all very important. I think Darius Garland making a return will help the Cavs ultimately because the offense still looks different when he’s on the floor, but nobody in the organization really feels like they’re rushing him to get back. The biggest one was DeAndre Hunter being added to the injury report before the game, which led to more minutes for players who we haven’t seen as much this season. Langa Ball and Thomas Bryant both found minutes, while the only active player who didn’t play tonight was Larry Mance Jr. And guys, I don’t want to overhype it, but Lonzo Ball and Thomas Bryant both had good minutes tonight and Lonzo Ball was playing well defensively, which we know is important for this Cleveland Cavaliers team. He came away with three steals. He also had eight rebounds, which is huge for this team. Thomas Bryant was a plus 13 on the floor even though he didn’t contribute necessarily as much in the box score. He was doing things that made winning plays, playing with effort, playing with tenacity. All the things that we know of Thomas prank. But guys, I think the biggest question is when Darius Garland returns and the roster stabilizes itself, do the Cavs revert to what they were earlier in the season? Or has the injury driven stretch fundamentally reshaped how they view rotations, roles and even trade priorities? Because this Cavs team came into the season talking about the depth, talking about wanting to explore that, and especially in the front court be able to utilize what they have. And what we’ve talked about throughout today’s podcast is the opportunities that Tyrese Proctor has gotten, Craig Porter Jr. Has gotten, and those guys being able to perform might have earned them more minutes, more rotation minutes than Kenny Atkinson might have thought they would have gotten earlier into the season. And I’m curious because we’ve already heard Kenny Atkinson talking about a 910 man rotation, especially when it comes to the playoffs and how difficult it is to play with flexibility. But we also seen, especially last year with the Indiana Pacers, how they playing with depth help them when it comes to their mobility, their pace and all the things that they do. How important is it for this Cavs team to find what works best for them, whether that’s the nine to ten man rotation or. Or expanding it and allowing their depth to shine through?
Chris Fedor: I think it’s just going to remain fluid. I think the best coaches in the NBA don’t just set something in stone and stick with it no matter what happens. I think it’s about situation. I think it’s about matchups. I think it’s about who’s being productive coming off the bench. And it’s a lot easier for Kenny Atkinson to feel like he could go to Lonzo Ball when Lonzo does what he did tonight. It’s a lot easier for Kenny Atkinson to go to Craig Porter Jr. When he’s doing a little bit of everything to help the team. And I think the truth is, and it’s the same thing that it’s been last year, the year before, the year before that. If you are not named Donovan Mitchell, Evan Mobley, Jared Allen and Darius Garland, maybe even Sam Merrill, the way that he has expanded his role, your role is going to fluctuate. It’s going to be fluid. And baked into your role is a level of uncertainty of how many minutes you’re going to play. Are you going to close? Are you not going to close? Who are you going to share the floor with? And it’s just going to be on the players to continue to adapt to that, and it’s going to be on the players to when their number is called, when they do get the bigger opportunity, like Tyrese Proctor tonight, like Thomas Bryant tonight, like Lonzo Ball tonight, you step up and you deliver because that’s your role on this basketball team. Not everybody can be high usage. Donovan Mitchell, Darius Garland and Evan Mobley. Some guys you just have to fill in the gaps and some guys you just have to wait your turn. So I do think the good thing for all, all of that the Cavs have gone through is that Tyrese Proctor is capable, Thomas Bryant is capable, Lonzo Ball in the right environment with the right set of circumstances, it’s pretty clear at this point in the season that the best version of Alonzo that the Cavs are going to get is when he gets multiple days to let his body recover. And it’s clear that this new form of management that Kenny Atkinson and the coaching staff and the training staff that they all decided to do with Lonzo is, is going to be the best thing for Lonzo because he looked a little bit Fresh tonight. He looked a little bit spry tonight. He looked like a guy who had his legs. He was getting lift on his shot. It wasn’t as flat. He was active in the passing lanes. He was going after rebounds with force. And it’s not a coincidence that it has come after he got a little bit extra time to allow his body to recover, his knees to recover. And the other thing is when he’s not playing these game days, he’s able to do other things as opposed to recovery. The next day he’s able to get on the court. The next day he’s able to get in the weight room. The next day he’s able to get on the treadmill and versaclimber and stuff like that because his body responds better when he doesn’t play back to back or he doesn’t play every other game. And the Cavs were using him a lot throughout the course of the beginning of the season and I think they realized that they just can’t do that at this stage of his career. I also don’t think it was a coincidence that Nance did not play the second game of a back to back. I think they have to be smart when it comes to managing Larry as well and that’s part of the coach’s responsibility. But, but I think when it comes to rotations and lineups, these things are going to be fluid.
Jimmy Watkins: They’ll be fluid until they’re not. The idea that a coach needs to find a nine to 10 man rotation, that’s not a novel thing for Kenny Atkinson to say. That’s a, that’s the goal that I think every NBA coach strives for and they all, they also strive for that decision to be hard on the back end. Which this will be an interesting situation to monitor once everyone starts coming back and we’ll see once we’ll see how the hierarchy sorts itself out. But like Sam Rail, Max Drew, Darius Garland, those are ironclad members of the rotation. Those are 25 minute a night guys. And so these are good stories. Naquan Tomlin is a great story. Craig Porter Jr’s emergence is important. Tyrese Proctor looks like he’s got a promising future. But it’s important to show that these guys are capable. Capable in case you need to, in case stuff hits the fan, which is where we’re at right now. Right. Stuff has hit the fan. Darius Garland just heard again. Sam Merrill and Max Druce are both out. Those are two very important part pieces of your offense. Someone, anyone, please come fill these minutes and they’re doing it. Irish Proctor is producing, Craig Porter Jr. Is greasing the wheels on the offense. That’s this is all very important. I don’t know that big picture like playoff come playoff time. I don’t know. These are names that we will be saying and if we are saying them, something else has gone wrong. But it’s still good like over the course of 82 to have this kind of depth to build this for the future. So I’m thinking like the next time if, if something happens this time next year we, when Darius or Donovan, someone important is missing, maybe there’s a little bit shorter of a learning curve. Like maybe that doesn’t result in like a 24 and 20 start to the season, a drift into the play in like it’s more natural plug and play. And, and for everything I just said, notice I didn’t downplay Jaylon Tyson. Jaylon Tyson is just straight up a playoff rotation player. If not eventually a starter this year like that guy. He’s on a. He has proven himself to a different degree, a different level than a lot of these other guys. That’s a happy accident, a product of an experiment the Cavs didn’t really know they were going to have to run this year with him. Right. Like they were telling us before the season. He’s going to crack rotation. No, he’s a starter. No. He’s a 30 minute a game guy. No, he’s like one of three players, three and a half players that you can count on this team to give you double figures every night. And his motor is the rare one on this roster that doesn’t seem to sputter ever. Like that guy just brings it. His offensive rebounding, his pursuit of offensive rebounds is incredible. Jalen Tyson is like the guy when Kenny Atkinson turns on the film and he is trying to teach guys that like rebounding is a, is a skill of desire. Just watch Jaylon Tyson. That’s all it is. That guy just runs at the rim and gets his hand on the ball. He’s not always the first one to touch the ball, but he’s usually the one that ends up with the possession. And all these guys. It’s important for the Caps to develop all this stuff. But Jaylon Tyson is the silver lining of all silver linings through the first 40. What are we, 47 games into the season now?
Chris Fedor: If Jalen shows that he can handle it in the playoffs, when the playoffs start and I have no reason to question whether or not he can, I think he’s built for the playoffs. I’ve talked about that before. So if he shows that he is ready and he is capable and he’s not phased by everything that playoff basketball is, and he’s just ready for the moment like I think he is, he’s going to get more minutes than DeAndre. He just does more and and he does more kind of stuff that is playoffy than DeAndre does. And that doesn’t mean that DeAndre doesn’t have a role. It doesn’t mean that DeAndre is not important. That’s the thing about this team. Everybody has a role, some bigger than others. Some minutes are going to be more expansive than others, but everybody has a role. And DeAndre is going to have a role. Just like I believe Max Struse, whatever version of Max they get, he’s going to have a role. Just like Sam Merrill, he’s going to have a role. But if Jalen Tyson, Jaylon Tyson is built for the playoffs, I truly believe that. And if he shows that that is true, he’s going to get more minutes.
Ethan Sands: Than DeAndre Hunter to Jimmy’s point, we are now at the 47 game mark of the season. The Cavs are 27 and 20. We talked about this a couple of podcasts ago. The Cavs aren’t necessarily going to make every game pretty, but stacking wins is the most important thing for this team at this point in in the season. And again, they’re only two games back from the Boston Celtics, who hold the second seed in the Eastern Conference. They’re seven games back from the Detroit Pistons, who just look really good. But again, the Cavs will make their way back to Cleveland to play Orlando again on Monday at Rocket Arena. But with all that being said, that’ll wrap up today’s episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. But remember to become a CAS insider and interact with Chris, me and Jimmy by subscribing to Subtext. This is where you can send in your weekly hey Chris questions, and the only way to do so is signing up for Subtext. Sign up for a 14 day free trial or visit cleveland.comcavs and click on the blue bar at the top of the page. If you don’t like it, that’s fine. All you have to do is text the word stop. It’s easy, but we can tell you that anybody who signs up sticks around because they know the content, the information, the insight that they’re getting on a daily basis. This isn’t just our podcast. It’s your podcast and the only way to have your voice heard is through subtext. Y’ all be safe. We out.