CLEVELAND, Ohio — In this episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast, Ethan Sands, Chris Fedor and Jimmy Watkins discuss the Cavs’ dominant victory over the Los Angeles Lakers, a game overshadowed by what might be LeBron James’s final appearance in Cleveland.
Takeaways:
LeBron’s Emotional Return Sparks End-of-Career Speculation
During his return to Cleveland, what might be his last, LeBron James had a profoundly emotional reaction to a tribute video shown in the first quarter. He appeared teary-eyed, suggesting the moment’s weight and the reality of his career’s approaching end were sinking in. The atmosphere was described as purposefully built for the occasion, amplified by the Cavs wearing classic jerseys from his first tenure. While his on-court performance was statistically one of his worst as an opponent in Cleveland, his genuine emotion during the tribute became the night’s defining moment, signaling to the hosts that he is seriously contemplating retirement and soaking in these final experiences.
A Second Cleveland Return Pitched as the “Storybook Ending”
The podcast hosts explored the idea of LeBron James returning to the Cavaliers one last time as the only way for him to achieve a “storybook ending” to his career. They argued that superstars rarely “stick the landing,” often ending their careers on lottery teams or in ill-fitting jerseys. A return to Cleveland would allow him to be a veteran leader on a contending team without needing to be the primary star, taking a backseat to Donovan Mitchell. This scenario would depend on the Cavs not winning a championship this season, creating a narrative where LeBron returns to push his hometown team over the top one final time, providing a perfect, meaningful conclusion that wouldn’t be possible in Los Angeles or with any other franchise.
Jaylon Tyson’s Emergence Fuels De’Andre Hunter Trade Talks
The breakout performance of younger players, particularly Jaylon Tyson and Nae’Qwan Tomlin, has made forward De’Andre Hunter increasingly expendable. A source reported to the hosts that Hunter is “very available” and that the Cavs are engaged in more than just cursory trade talks with interested teams. With Hunter being the fourth-highest-paid player on the roster, his production has not matched his $23 million salary. The rise of cheaper, effective players like Tyson and Dean Wade, coupled with the team’s need to get out of the restrictive second luxury tax apron, makes trading Hunter a logical move to rebalance the roster and financials without sacrificing on-court production at the wing position.
Cavs’ Dominant Performance Overshadowed by LeBron Spectacle
Despite the night’s focus on LeBron James, the Cavaliers delivered one of their most dominant performances of the season, dismantling the Lakers 129-99. The Cavs blew the game open in the second half, outscoring Los Angeles 72-44 and forcing the Lakers to empty their bench with nine minutes left in the game. The hosts highlighted the team’s defensive intensity, physicality, and energy, which the Lakers could not match. Nae’Qwan Tomlin was a “pest” on defense against Luka Doncic and LeBron, while Jaylen Tyson continued his ascent, rising to the challenge of guarding his childhood idol. The decisive victory showcased the team’s potential even while being shorthanded.
A Debate on the “Ownership” of Cleveland’s Basketball Identity
A significant post-game moment occurred when Jaylon Tyson declared that Cleveland is now “Donovan Mitchell’s city.” This sparked a debate among the hosts about the team’s identity in the post-LeBron era. While they acknowledged Tyson’s comment as a sign of confidence and an attempt to forge a new identity, they largely agreed that Cleveland will always be LeBron’s city. The consensus was that the only way for this to change is if Donovan Mitchell leads the Cavaliers to a championship without LeBron James. Until then, winning a title is the only metric by which Mitchell or any other player can truly stake a claim to the city in the way LeBron has.
Listen using the player below:
You can also listen using your preferred podcast app. Subscription information is below.
Subscribe and listen onApple Podcasts or Spotify.
The video version of the podcast is on YouTube as well.
Transcript
NOTE: This transcript was generated by artificial intelligence and could contain misspellings and errors.
Ethan Sands: What up, Cavs Nation? I’m your host, Ethan Sands, and I’m back with another episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. And joining me Today, Chris Fedor, cleveland.com Cavs beat reporter and Jimmy Watkins, cleveland.com columnist and we’re coming to you guys after the Cavs fifth win in a row. They dismantled the Los Angeles Lakers 129 to 99 on Wednesday night. And guys, we knew coming into this contest, it was not just about the game itself. It was the moment, the experience, the atmosphere. LeBron James returning to Cleveland in what could be his last time in in Rocket Arena. And guys, I think it didn’t necessarily live up to the moment for LeBron James performance, but the atmosphere, the environment, how the fans received him was exactly what you could have thought coming into the game, it was an extra cherry on top that the Cavs were wearing the classic edition jerseys, the navy. It just felt like everything was done so purposefully, everything was made so they could surrender the fans, the LeBron James could surrender to the moment. And we got a little glimpse of that at the first time out when the Cavs had their tribute for LeBron James, an ode to the jerseys, an ode to his first tenure here in Cleveland, but also how he responded to that and how he was watching. It looked teary eyed, looked like he had to wipe some tears off his face. And what did you guys take away from the game itself, but also that moment and the reality of this really could be the end of it all for LeBron James’s career.
Chris Fedor: I think from a game standpoint for the Cavs, it’s unfortunate for them that they got bumped from the spotlight because that was a hell of a performance. That was one of their better performances, especially that dominant second half against the Lakers for the they forced Los Angeles to empty their bench with like nine minutes to go in the fourth quarter, outscoring them 72 to 44. In a second half where the ball was moving around, other guys were getting involved. De’Andre Hunter looked like the guy that they traded for. Other guys stepped up. Jared Allen, big night. Nae’Qwan Tomlin with his defense, Jaylen Tyson continuing to show why he was named a rising star. So on any other night, we would be boasting about what the Cavs did against the Los Angeles Lakers. But the spotlight Wednesday night, as is the case, every time he comes back because of what he means to this area, because of what he means to this franchise, the spotlight shines brightest on LeBron. It was his night. Even with the terrible outcome for him, even though it was the fewest amount of points that he has ever scored as a member of the opposition in Cleveland against the Cavs when he was with Miami, when he was with the Lakers, doesn’t matter. This was statistically his worst performance against the Cavs as a member of the opposition here in Cleveland. So that’s obviously not what he wanted. But the moment from tonight’s game happened early in the first quarter. I mean, that tribute video and the way that LeBron got teary eyed and choked up, that showed just how much this all means to him and how much he recognizes that he is very close to the end. So he’s not taking anything for granted. He’s trying to soak up everything that he possibly can. And he said after the game that every time he goes into a Road Arena, Washington, D.C. give me a break. Washington, D.C. the guard in Barclays, Chicago, Cleveland, even, you know, he has these thoughts about, this could be the end. This could be my last time coming into this building. But when it’s Cleveland, when his mom is in a suite, when his family is here, when Bronny is on the bench right next to him, when the fans are wearing their LeBron jerseys, when he’s playing beneath the championship banner that he helped hang, when he’s playing in front of Richard Jefferson, who was his teammate on the championship team, all of that just became too much for LeBron. And Bronny talked about it after the game, saying he wasn’t all that surprised because he understands just what Cleveland and what being back home means to LeBron. And you could feel that inside the arena during that, that video tribute. And to me, everything else just takes a backseat to that because what that means, or trying to decipher what that means, is a fascinating conversation.
Jimmy Watkins: Yeah, look, man, I’m, I would consider myself to be in the 99th percentile of cynical jackass.
Chris Fedor: You said it.
Jimmy Watkins: I, I, I think that was pretty real what we saw tonight. Like if he, if, if him fighting back the tears and then hiding the tears under his jersey and dabbing his face with that, that was acting, then maybe they should take another shot at Space Jam, because he’s gotten a lot better. I, I think he was, those were legitimate emotions and I think, I think LeBron is seriously considering retirement now. He also said after the game he was asked about a retirement tour. He said, well, you know, I’d have to talk it over with my family. We haven’t done that yet. We’d have to have that conversation before we start talking about Retirement tour. So the door’s still open, as it always is. And I know we’re all skeptics about LeBron. If you’re from Cleveland, you know how this goes. He’s. He’s kind of pump faked us on retirement before. After pretty much their last three playoff exits, I think. And this dude has never met a spotlight that he would not soak in for a little bit, but it seems it’s. It’s more real. It’s more real than it’s ever been. He’s really thinking about it. There’s a legitimate chance, I think, that this could. Could have been the last game of. The last game that LeBron ever plays in Cleveland. And that is a. That is a heck of a thing to chew on given the outcome. Yes, the Cavs were awesome. They out energyed the Lakers. They like the Lakers. By the mid third quarter, early fourth quarter, they just were. They just looked like, all right, can we just go to the next game? Like, enough. Yeah, make one. Tomlin, enough. Lucas Luca’s just like, dude, get off me. Can you stop?
Chris Fedor: I’m.
Jimmy Watkins: I’m. I can’t do this anymore. Like, someone else deal. Gabe Benson, get in here. Please, someone else dribble. They were. They were so in your face. The Cavs were so in your face, and they were bringing. They’re bringing so much intensity. The Lakers were not ready for the level of. Of juice the Cavs brought in this game. And it would be. It would be so weird for this to be the lasting memory of LeBron in Cleveland. Frankly, who would. Honestly, how many people are going to remember it for anything but the moment where he cried? And maybe that’s all that matters. That moment. That moment’s important. If it. If it is the last moment that we remember him by in the city that mo. The. I think the video choice of him scoring 25 straight against Detroit, kind of his coming out party as a. As a franchise changing superstar. I think that’s been an excellent. I think that’s an excellent visual for this scene to be remembered by. I think that he mentioned that, like, that specific video means a lot to him. And that part’s all good, but it would just be such. I was watching him the entire fourth quarter. I didn’t. I couldn’t tell you what happened in the game other than you couldn’t. You couldn’t look away when Bronnie had the ball because the entire arena was screaming about it. And he almost. Bronnie almost outscored his dad in this game, yet he had And I was kind of. That was just for the narrative. I was like, come on, Bronnie, put one more up there. Give me 11.
Chris Fedor: Give me.
Jimmy Watkins: Put one more. Three. But I was just watching LeBron. And if. If you would have told anybody at any point during LeBron’s career that one of his last memorable moments would be in Cleveland, they would first, never think he’d be wearing a Lakers jersey. They would never think that the Cavs were whooping his tail. They would never think that he would play this poorly. It’s six turnovers, five assists. LeBron James had more turnovers than assists.
Chris Fedor: No one has a 23, I think.
Jimmy Watkins: Minus 23, if you like. If you’re into numerology. No, like, this is just you. I’m saying this to say it never ends for superstars the way you think they’re gonna. It’s gonna end right? Like, how many. How many people. I asked LeBron this after the game. Like, why is it so hard to stick the landing to get that. That, that. That perfect whatever in gymnastics? I don’t know what they call it, but, like, when you do the. When you. You land and then you do, like, your little. The dismount. There you go. Like, that. It. No one seems like Bill Russell did it. He won a championship during his last season, and a lot of his teammates also did that during their dynastic run. Right. MJ came really close. MJ hit the shot in Utah Game six, win the championship, walks off, retires. Couldn’t stay away. Couldn’t stay away. Kobe, I guess, like, hit 60 in his last game, but he’s doing it for a freaking lottery team. That’s not how Kobe wanted to go out. So I just think. I think it’s fascinating that so many of our greatest legends, one, have a hard time walking away. Luka Doncic said Luca’s dad was a professional player. So I was asking him about his dad, and he was just like, I don’t know. I don’t really remember my dad, but, like, we did this our whole lives. And so, yeah, it’s kind of hard to let go. He said that so succinctly, and I think that sums up really nicely, but it’s not real for him because he’s still in his 20s. Right?
Chris Fedor: Right.
Jimmy Watkins: He’s not. He doesn’t think about it as. As deeply, but I think it’s fascinating that that’s such a attention point for them. And I think it’s fascinating how few. How few of our favorites actually get that kind of send off. So In a weird way, it would be fitting for LeBron’s last game in Cleveland to look nothing like we thought it. It would because it rarely happens that way.
Chris Fedor: I think there’s a pathway for it to happen that way. I think there’s an obvious answer to how he can stick the landing and get the storybook fairy tale ending. It’s come here, it’s come back to Cleveland. Now one thing has to happen. The Cavs can’t win the championship this year. Okay? That can’t happen for LeBron to want to come back here and get that fairytale ending. The Cavs can’t win the championship or.
Jimmy Watkins: Really come close, right? They can’t come close.
Chris Fedor: I think they can come close, but the whole idea of it would be LeBron returning to Cleveland, being the guy that once again gets them over the hump, takes them to a place that they couldn’t get without him, and does it in his hometown. To me, if LeBron continues to play, if this isn’t the end, and the one thing that he did say tonight that I thought was really, really interesting is that he is in a battle with Father Time and he is enjoying that battle and that he still is playing at a high level, according to him. And he still loves the day to day stuff that goes into being an NBA player. Like he is not tired of that yet. He still relishes that. He still enjoys that process. So as long as that’s the case, I think it opens the door for him to say, hey, I can still do this, I can still do this at a high enough level. I’m not playing like a typical 41, 42 year old. So for him, if he continues to play, I think there are two spots that he can go back to LA or to Cleveland. That’s it. I guess Miami, because he’s already been there. But I just don’t think LeBron’s the guy who, where you look at a picture of him toward the end of his career and you see him in this weird looking jersey like, huh, you’re in Dallas, like what, you went to Dallas for a year. You go to State, you’re going to go to the arch rival, the team that you were so petty toward for, for four straight years. The team that, you know, you had this rivalry with a deep rooted bad blood rivalry with really there. Like you going to go to Houston, going towards Charlotte because they’re going to give you $50 million. The only team that may like, no, to me it’s Cleveland or la and the situation in la is what it is. It’s Luka Doncic franchise now. It’s not LeBron’s. It seems to be some animosity there between LeBron and the franchise. So as much as he may like LA and the mystique of the Lakers and the history and all that kind of stuff, Cleveland is a logical place for him to get that perfect ending that you’re talking about, Jimmy. Because I, I don’t think, like, even if it doesn’t end with a championship, and even if it doesn’t end with LeBron, you know, playing at this super high level, there’s enough of a supporting cast here, provided the Cavs don’t have to blow it up in order to get him. There’s enough of a supporting cast here that he could blend into the fabric of the team. He could enhance the team with the things that he does well. The maturity, the leadership, the championship DNA, the readiness for playoff level basketball, inability to make everybody around him better, something that he has done his entire career. He can enhance the team that way, but he can also have enough support around him that he doesn’t have to be the guy, he doesn’t have to put on a cape for a team to win a championship in LA. He’s being paid $52 million and he’s looked at as this guy alongside Luka. That has to be great almost on a nightly basis for them to be the team that competes in the Western Conference. And at this stage of his career at 41 years old, he can’t be that. And that’s okay. It happens to all of us. I have a hard time getting out of bed in the morning without doing back stretches. I never thought that was going to be my reality, but it’s my reality. So for him, like, being that in LA is probably a little bit too much. But being like a secondary guy here in Cleveland, a supporting role guy here in Cleveland, that brings it all together. And it also like, puts a bone on his career saying that he can do it that way too. Like, he doesn’t have to be the man. He can be a team player. He can take a backseat to Donovan Mitchell. He can have enough awareness about who he is and where his game is that he can take that back seat and still be successful in that kind of way. So to me, that’s the way to stick the landing. That’s the way to get the ending that you’re talking. It would not happen in la. Too much is being asked of him in la and, and that that roster is just not good enough around him, and Luka and Austin Reaves when he comes back from an injury. But here, as long as they don’t act out of desperation, and as long as it’s on the Cavs terms, And not only LeBron’s terms, I think it makes all the sense in the world.
Ethan Sands: Jimmy, I want to go back to something you said a little bit earlier. You said, probably the one moment that is going to be remembered the most is LeBron James cry. I would argue that the second most important moment from tonight’s game happened after the game was over, and that was Donovan Mitchell and Jaylon Tyson talking at center court, and Jaylon Tyson saying that this is Donovan Mitchell city. And Chris talked about the if LeBron were to come back, the Cavs can’t win a championship. Well, that’s the only way that this actually becomes Donovan Mitchell city. Because if the Cavs are able to get past the LeBron James era of Cleveland, we’ve seen the ovations.
Chris Fedor: We’ve seen even Bronny, it’ll never be anybody else’s city, but LeBron James continue.
Ethan Sands: Even Bronny James getting the ovations and all this stuff. And I understand, right, LeBron, it was the chosen one. He helped create the foundation. That’s what Donovan Mitchell said in response to what Jaylon Tyson said. Right. Although it is nice. LeBron James laid the foundation. But if the Cavs are able to get to a championship, to win a championship without LeBron, then there’s opportunity for conversation of what does Donovan Mitchell mean for the city? What did that trade do? What was the meaning behind all this? And I think the moment that we’re talking about coming back to, that would be incredible, because you have circled today. It was the passing of the torch, and LeBron James didn’t necessarily know he was passing the torch, right? And Jaylon Tyson called it out. That would be the second best moment from tonight when it comes to Jaylon Tyson saying something that seemed outlandish, seems outlandish, that seems like it’s overzealous, that seems like it’s too much. But if things turn out the way that the Cavs want them to, and I’m not saying that it will, because. So it’s still a long season. The Cavs are only a game behind the second place in the Eastern Conference.
Chris Fedor: Now.
Ethan Sands: The moment itself will carry weight if things go the way that the Cavs want them to.
Chris Fedor: All right, so I understand this whole idea, and fans have been talking about this for years. There’s this whole idea of Taking pride in doing it without LeBron. Taking pride in showing that you’re not beholden to him, that success is not determined by just one player. And I don’t think the Cavs. And as Dave McMenamin from ESPN reported earlier today, the Cavs are open to the possibility of signing LeBron as a free agent this upcoming off season. I don’t think they’re acting out of desperation with that. I think there was a time when this organization was desperate and they would have done anything, anything to bring LeBron back. That’s not the situation here. I think it would be come back on, on our terms, not so much your terms. And I understand this whole idea of like, taking pride in doing it without LeBron and showing that you don’t need him to win a championship. But if things don’t go the way that the Cavs want them to in the playoffs this year, if they don’t win a championship, and I think if we’re being honest at this point in time, they’d have to luck themselves into a championship, because I just think Oklahoma City’s better than everybody else, including the Cavs. So if they don’t win the championship, and I don’t think they’re going to, admittedly, there’s a long season still left to be played and circumstances can change that. But if they don’t win the championship, how could, after coming up short for the fourth straight year and having some bad, bad playoff performances mixed in there, the Indiana series, the New York series, how could you as an organization possibly say, yeah, we’re going to turn our back on LeBron if he wants to come here, and you can find a way to make it work financially, which is a whole different conversation. How are you possibly in a position to say, no, we’re good, it’s all right. Choose somewhere else. I don’t think they’re in that kind of position unless they win championship, in which case they could say, thanks, man, but we don’t need you. We’ve got a team that can win a championship. We like our roster, we like our chemistry.
Jimmy Watkins: Yeah. So I think two things can be true here. One, everything Chris said is true. The Cavs are in no LeBron even 41 going on. 42 year old LeBron James is by far the best free agent who would consider signing here.
Chris Fedor: Correct?
Jimmy Watkins: By far. By far. And the best player they could reasonably acquire without trading away one of their other two best players. Right. So that, that right there. I think the Cavs are listening. But this is interesting in that this could be. This is the first time probably where LeBron would need the Cavs, too.
Chris Fedor: Need.
Jimmy Watkins: If. If he decides that he wants to play one more year, and if he decides that he doesn’t want that to be with the Lakers, I’m very confident that if he plays another year, it won’t be with the Lakers. Like Chris said, where do you go? Yeah, where do you go? Even if you’re still good? LeBron already has. We said. I think I said this yesterday on the pod with Ethan. LeBron already has this mercenary reputation. He’s kind of a hired gun. He doesn’t. Yes, he’ll always be Cleveland’s, but, like, his longest consecutive stint with any team is with the Lakers. That’s weird, man. That’s weird. He doesn’t really. Again, Cleveland will always claim him. He doesn’t really belong to any one franchise.
Chris Fedor: Right.
Jimmy Watkins: He’s hopped around every so often, and if he does it again, if he closes his career, unlike the Knicks or the Mavericks, again, he’s way better than these guys. But it’s going to look a little bit like Patrick Ewing on the Magic or Akeem Olajuwon on the Raptors like this. It doesn’t fit. Shaq on the Cavs or the Suns late in his career. It’s a bad look, man. It’s a bad look. And this guy cares a lot about optics. He needs them. He needs them here a little bit. I would never say that he needs them more than they need him because they’re really, really, really trying to win a championship. And I’m really not sure they could do it without him in this scenario. But that’s an interesting tie to this. But I would also save the Cavs. That was another thing I was digging around about in the locker room, in the Lakers locker room tonight. I was just asking, frankly, random guys, Gabe Vincent drew Timmies of the world, what’s it like living under the spotlight? You guys have played other places, and you played here. And Gabe Vincent was like, man, it’s like everybody wants. Everybody wants to know from me, like, I would know what LeBron’s doing on his off day. And that’s. That’s a. That’s a level of scrutiny that this particular Cavs team has no relationship with. Zero relationship with the media circus that LeBron invites. The. The scrutiny beyond this team. Oh, my goodness. And particularly with this team, which, let’s be real, has been fragile at times. I mean, I would personally have some questions about how Evan Mobley would look playing with LeBron James and with a LeBron James size microscope on him, I would have questions about that. I would have questions about Darius Garland in a similar situation. Beyond the who’s dribbling the ball? Who. How are we going to share this ball? Because Even though he’s 41, LeBron still likes to have one. He should. He’s still damn good with it in his hands. But it’s just. That’s another thing to consider here, is that with LeBron comes everything in his orbit and likely, Bronnie, let’s be real. Let’s be real. That’s what it would be. And that that is something that I’m not sure this particular iteration of the Cavs is prepared for. That’s fair.
Ethan Sands: I think that’s a really good point. And I think the other portion of this is just to reiterate, Donovan has admitted, on the record, I am not LeBron James, and nobody should have to try to be. Right? Because as we know, he’s one of one, arguably the best player that has touched the basketball. Jaylon Tyson said tonight that he was the greatest ever, right? But I want to get to the game, even if just briefly, because I think it’s important. And I’m not necessarily talking about Donovan Mitchell and his performance and what he was able to do. It’s more so Jaylon Tyson rising to another standard, taking on the assignment against a player he grew up idolizing in LeBron James, 6 foot 6, going up against 6 foot 9, LeBron and holding his own, having fun, doing it. Like there were times today where Jaylon Tyson drew an offensive foul, fell to the ground and was screaming, screaming, until his teammates came and got him off the floor out of excitement because of what that meant to him. And that goes in hand in hand with the fearlessness conversation, the mental toughness conversation that we’ve had so many times on this podcast, and the necessity to have that, the team, the players, to have that mindset going into the playoffs. And I think not only Jaylon Tyson doing that because he’s been doing that this year and showing that he can be a villain. He can switch that brain into that mode and become what the Cavs need or what other teams hate, but to Jimmy’s point, Nae’Qwan Tomlin was a pest on Luka Doncic and LeBron James tonight, a guy who is probably in his fifth year of basketball, organized basketball, was guarding two of the best players in the game, and he pickpocketed Luka and then threw down one of the nastiest windmills. And I don’t know if you guys looked at it, but there was another angle of it and it literally looked like one of LeBron’s dunks, like his windmill. That’s how ferocious it was, that’s how elegant it was. But the mindset of having guys like that who out of necessity are getting more minutes. I talked to Jayla Tyson before the game and I was like, even you weren’t expecting to play 35 minutes a night even if you were going to get a bigger role this season. He was like, no. And just seeing these guys who are so young, two years into their NBA career, one on a two way contract, be able to rise to the moment, rise to the standard of what Donovan Mitchell needed this night. I just think it bodes well for what this cast team might need in the future. And it’s also telling to the Cavs that they might need these guys even in spurt minutes in the playoffs.
Chris Fedor: Well, I think this all ties in because, you know, the, the emergence of, of Jaylon Tyson combined with Kenny clearly trusting Nae’Qwan Tomlin to a different level than he did at the beginning of the season. Max Stru’s foot healing enough where he can be on the court doing individual workouts. Dean Wade’s impacts, look, I mean what are they? 7 and 1 his last 8 starts? 8 and 1 in his last 9 starts, something like that. Their defensive numbers with and without him are striking. And you felt that again Sam Merrill’s ability to guard multiple wing spots and, and be this prolific three point shooter and somebody who can run a two man game with either one of the Cavs bigs, somebody that Donovan Mitchell trusts, somebody that commands so much attention from the opposing defense. And then De’Andre Hunter’s continued struggles. Now De’Andre picked it up tonight. He missed his first five shots. He made seven of his final 10. Maybe this was an in person audition for the Los Angeles Lakers saying hey, come get me. Um, but either way like all of a sudden the Cavs have these guys and they didn’t last year at the trade deadline, you know what I mean? Not to this level. Like at the time that they felt like they needed De’Andre Hunter, Jaylon Tyson, wasn’t this Nae’Qwan Tomlin, Wasn’t this Sam Merrill, wasn’t this Dean Wade, wasn’t this. I think he was hurt at the time with Dean. That’s usually the case unfortunately for him because like every time he starts to get confidence and he starts to play well, he starts to show his nightly impact, something interrupts that it hasn’t happened to this point yet for Dean. But last year that that might have been the case. So, like, the need for De’Andre Hunter has diminished greatly. And this is a second apron team. This is the most expensive roster in the NBA and De’Andre Hunter is the fourth highest paid player on this roster. Are they getting that level of production from De’Andre? No, they’re not. So if they can get that from $6 million annually, Dean Wade, from $3.4 million, Jaylon Tyson and the minuscule contract that Nae’Qwan Tomlin has, why do they need De’Andre? Can they afford De’Andre? Can they afford a $23 million player that is not performing like a $23 million player? This is a legitimate question, and I think it points to why. You know, the trade deadline’s right around the corner, and I’m told that the Cavs continue to have talks with a bunch of teams about De’Andre. I had a source reached out to me earlier today. He said De’Andre Hunter is, quote, very available and that these conversations that the Cavs are having with these other teams, they aren’t just cursory conversations early in the trade deadline process about, hey, do you like our player? Yes. You do? Okay. These are the general guys that we kind of like on your team. Give us a call back at some point. No, these are like engaged talks with interested suitors in De’Andre that makes it feel like there could be a pathway to a trade here. And I don’t think it would be possible if Jaylon Tyson wasn’t what he’s become. That changes the equation here. And Nae’Qwan Tomlin being what. What he has become, where the Cavs are considering giving him a standard contract, like the status for De’Andre Hunter, the status quo has changed drastically. And the Cavs need for somebody like De’Andre has changed drastically. And it’s not to say that he wasn’t good tonight because, you know, the way that he played, that’s what the Cavs were expecting when they traded for him. But, man, Jaylon Tyson just looks to me like a guy who is just built for playoff basketball. He’s going to be around for a long, long time. And he would allow any type of De’Andre Hunter trade to look like something other than just a pure salary dump, because the guy that you’re creating space for is just playing better on a nightly basis.
Jimmy Watkins: Jaylon Tyson’s awesome, man. I disagree from many different angles. With hit with his take that this is Donovan Mitchell City now. I think that’s kind of a. That’s frankly, a bit of an immature thing to say. He’s young. He. He doesn’t know what he. He. He can’t know what he doesn’t know.
Chris Fedor: And he’s.
Jimmy Watkins: He’s like everybody else. He’s trying to. He’s trying to stake his name independent of LeBron. They’re trying to create their own thing here. I like that he. I like that he said the immature thing. I like that. I like that he has that sort of. That’s the irrational confidence, right? For him to say that. For him during the game, him saying that, like, I fear no man. When they ask him about LeBron James, like, hell yeah, the Cavs need more of that energy. Whether it’s. Whether he’s right or not, who cares? Like, I just like that that exists. So as it pertains to De’Andre Hunter, I mean, it’s. It’s not just that the Cavs have less of a need for him. Like, for. It’s. It’s the second apron element. His contract, it’s not going to be a straight salary dump, but his contract is the difference essentially.
Chris Fedor: From where?
Jimmy Watkins: From the Cavs being in the second apron and being out of the second apron. And independent of that, even if De’Andre Hunter was. Even if the Cavs, if there was no way for the Cavs to get out of the second apron with or without De’Andre Hunter, you can’t pay a dude that much money in this era and have him not live up to it.
Chris Fedor: Every freak, what, your seventh best player, right?
Jimmy Watkins: Every decimal point counts when you’re this far into the tax. And for the gap between production and salary to be this large, I mean, it’s. It’s borderline a no brainer at this point for the Cavs to shop him around because they have a surplus at his position and it just hasn’t worked. FYI, if LeBron was on this team, he’d be gone already.
Chris Fedor: Right?
Jimmy Watkins: He’d be gone already. LeBron is the CEO of Vibes, and De’Andre Hunter, I understand why his Vibes have been off this year. He’s had a rough go. The Cavs did shake up his role pretty quickly. But I said to Ethan Last night, De’Andre Hunter missed a couple games. I know they’ve been on a better run in the big picture. It’s 16 game sample size, but boy, the Vibes have been extra good the last couple of games, right? I don’t think that’s a coincidence. And by the way, I also don’t think that De’Andre Hunter is just a bad player now. I think this was a fit mis evaluation. As we’ve said on previous podcasts, I think he could thrive somewhere else with a little bit more leeway and a role that suits him better and maybe players that fit him better. I don’t know. I think I still believe in him as his skill set. I still think the Cavs could get stuff for him. He’s a three and D wing man. Someone else is going to be thinking exactly what the Cavs were thinking this time last year. I don’t know if the price will be the same, I don’t know if the Cavs will be driving as hard a bargain because again, they have a circle set the position. But it just feels like it’s time, it’s time to move on here.
Ethan Sands: Now the Cavs, as I mentioned earlier, are on a five game win streak and now head out west for a five game road trip while they continue to try and stack wins and continue to draw consistency from their play, whether that’s leaning back into that defensive identity and actually looking like they might be a defense first team or continuing to find ways to win when it comes to around the margins, 50, 50 balls, rebounding, physicality, toughness, gritty, non pretty wins. And I think that’s important for this team to continue to build those habits and the understanding of where they want to go. But it’s also creating a mindset for them that even when they’re enduring hardship that they can find a way to get through it. And I think that’s extremely important when it comes to the playoffs and how any series can change based on an injury, based on lineup construction, based on who’s playing well and who’s not. And I think this Cavs team is learning firsthand and I think that’s part of the reason why on this podcast we consistently said it’s early in the season, we cannot freak out entirely is because now the Cavs are one game back from being the second seed in the Eastern Conference and and we still have so much more time to go for the season. So it’s not saying again, you can’t overreact to a five, eight or 14 game stretch where the Cavs have looked good. Either they’ve looked better, but as Donovan Mitchell has continuously told us throughout the season, they have to keep doing it. Can you continue to battle through fatigue? Can you continue to find ways to win games even when it’s not pretty? Can you continue to do all the little things, all the right things, and make aggressive mistakes rather than passive ones? That’s what this cast team is trying to do. That’s where they want to go and how they think that they can put themselves in the best seat going forward towards the playoffs and be peaking at the right time so they don’t have to flip a switch. It’s just who they are.
Chris Fedor: I would also say though that like personnel and lineup construction dictates how you’re able to play and I don’t think we can lose sight of that. I don’t want to single one person out. But the level and the way that the Cavs can play and the positional size and the versatility and the toughness and the point of attack, defense, it’s just going to be different. It has to be different. When Darius Garland comes back, he is going to be a 30 to 35 minute a night player and there are physical limitations that he has on the defensive end of the floor and there are some size limitations that the Cavs have with certain lineup constructions that they don’t currently have to deal with right now. So I before we talk about them finding their defensive mojo, for me personally, before I start talking about them finding their defensive mojo and they become this gritty team that can rely on their defense and they can be more like the Oklahoma City Thunder or the Detroit Pistons, I need to see them be able to play to that kind of defensive level and that kind of defensive standard when Darius is going to be out there playing as many minutes as he’s going to be able to play because it just changes. We have seen it over and over and over again and it’s a lot different for a basketball team when Donovan Mitchell is next to Jaylon Tyson on the defensive end of the floor as opposed to Darius Garland. It just is. It’s a lot different for the Cavs when they can toss out a lineup of Donovan Mitchell, Jaylon Tyson, Dean Wade, Evan Mobley and Jared Allen. That size, that length, that athleticism, that physicality at the point of attack, it’s just going to be different. So I need to see it with a different iteration of the Cavs. I need to see it with a different personnel grouping of the Gavs before I start to go in that particular direction.
Jimmy Watkins: There’s also, there’s always a little schedule something happening with the season. The Cavs got totally buried by their schedule to start this season. But like the Lakers are not a good defensive team, right. So it is easier for them for the Cavs to survive on offense without Darius. Against teams like that. Against teams like the Sacramento Kings last week. Right. The Cavs look better. To me, this is still progress. I’m going to give them. I’m not saying this is who they are now, but I’m giving them some credit for these gritty wins without some of their best players. Especially tonight, without Evan and Darius. Like, I don’t know if this could be a score. Like, the defense was very impressive tonight, but yeah, it’s still just a blip. This is still just a blip. There’s a much bigger picture to consider. And as Chris said, there are bigger considerations at play. Play when they’re whole, not just there. Like when Max Dress comes back too. Max, Drew, Sam Merrill, not so much. Sam, Max, Drew, Darius Garland on the court at the same time, and Donovan Mitchell. People will go out because he’s a superstar and they’re trying to tire him out. Like, it’s going to be a different configuration. They’re going to have different sized lineups out there. The question, one of the major questions I have about the playoffs is does Darius juice your offense to the level that it justifies his defensive shortcomings? And we haven’t really been able to answer that question in an honest way the last couple years because of the injuries. But, like, this is the year where it all coalesces. You’re either healthy and we get an answer or you’re not healthy. And like, maybe now we’re worried about you not being healthy. Right? So, yes, there are bigger things at play here, but you’d still rather see this than not.
Ethan Sands: And with all that being said, that’ll wrap up today’s episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. But remember to become a Cavs insider and interact with Chris, me and Jimmy by subscribing to subtext. Sign up for a 14 day free trial or visit cleveland.comcavs and click on the blue bar at the top of the page. If you don’t like it, that’s fine. All you have to do is text the word stop. It’s easy. But when we can tell you that the people who sign up stick around because this is the best way to get insider coverage on the Cavs from me, Chris and Jimmy. This isn’t just our podcast. It’s your podcast. And the only way to have your voice heard is through subtext. Y’ all be safe. We out.