CLEVELAND, Ohio — In this episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast, Ethan Sands, Chris Fedor, and Jimmy Watkins answer questions from Subtext subscribers, diving into the Cavs’ roster challenges and trade-deadline possibilities.
Takeaways:
Cavs Face Complex Roster Decisions with Returning Stars
The Cleveland Cavaliers are enjoying a period of success despite significant injuries, but they face the complex challenge of reintegrating stars Darius Garland, Evan Mobley and Max Strus. As these players return, the minutes for breakout performers like Nae’Qwan Tomlin, Craig Porter Jr., and others will inevitably decrease. The podcast hosts describe this as a “good problem to have,” as it signals a deep and talented roster, but acknowledge the delicate process head coach Kenny Atkinson will face. The reintegration will force the team to re-establish lineups and rotations that have just recently found a groove, creating a difficult but necessary adjustment period as they prepare for the latter half of the season and playoffs.
A De’Andre Hunter Trade to the Lakers Has Been Discussed
Sources indicate that the Cavs and Los Angeles Lakers have discussed a “general framework” for a trade centered around De’Andre Hunter. Due to the complexities of the salary cap, with the Cavs in the second tax apron and the Lakers hard-capped, the deal would require a third team to facilitate. The proposed structure involves Hunter going to the Lakers, with Cleveland receiving Rui Hachimura and other assets. Teams like the Brooklyn Nets or Utah Jazz, who have significant cap space, were mentioned as potential third-party facilitators. This move highlights the Cavs’ creative approach to navigating trade restrictions while seeking to improve their roster and financial standing.
The Strategic Rationale Behind the Proposed Lakers Trade
The potential Hunter-for-Hachimura swap is logical for both organizations. For the Lakers, acquiring Hunter provides a player under contract who could theoretically fill a wing role if LeBron James leaves or retires. For the Cavaliers, the primary benefit is financial flexibility. Hachimura is on an expiring contract, which would provide significant salary cap relief and help the Cavs move away from the punitive second tax apron. This would clear future salary obligations and make team-building easier, all while acquiring a player who is shooting well and can contribute immediately. The trade represents a move that addresses both the Cavs’ present on-court needs and their long-term financial health.
The Argument Against Trading De’Andre Hunter Prematurely
A compelling counter-argument was raised against trading De’Andre Hunter too quickly, cautioning against over-reliance on the team’s promising but untested young players in a playoff environment. The concern is that while players like Jaylon Tyson bring energy, Hunter possesses years of league experience that could be invaluable during a long season and high-pressure postseason games. This perspective suggests that Hunter, who was brought in to be a key defensive piece, may yet find his form, especially considering the team’s injury-riddled season. The hosts acknowledge that the Cavs will not trade Hunter for a purely lateral move; any deal must be perceived as a clear upgrade to their overall situation.
Hunter’s Inconsistent Fit and Costly Contract Drive Trade Talks
Ultimately, the discussion to trade De’Andre Hunter is driven by two main factors: his inconsistent fit and his substantial contract. The hosts conclude that Hunter has not lived up to expectations as a defensive stopper and has been outplayed by younger, cheaper players like Jaylon Tyson, who appears to be a better fit. For a team with the NBA’s highest payroll and operating in the second tax apron, paying Hunter $23 million to be the seventh or eighth man is not financially sustainable. His contract does not match his on-court production, making him the most logical trade piece to improve the team’s salary cap situation while potentially acquiring an asset that better fits the roster’s needs.
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Transcript
NOTE: This transcript was generated by artificial intelligence and could contain misspellings and errors.
Ethan Sands: What up Cavs Nation? I’m your host, Ethan Sands and I’m back with another episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. And joining me Today, Chris Fedor, cleveland.com, cavs beat reporter, and Jimmy Watkins, cleveland.com columnist. And we’re here today to do another hey Chris episode of the podcast where we answer questions from our Subtext subscribers. It’s a weekly series where we get into the questions of everything surrounding the Cavs, anything heading into the trade deadline and more. Sure, this is something that we do weekly, but we have daily conversations with our Subtext subscribers and it is more than worth the money. 3.99amonth and you get a 14 day free trial so you get to test out whether or not you want to stick around. And I promise when you get in, you’re going to get hooked because of the information that you’re getting that is not readily available on all social media platforms. This is insight from the most knowing beat reporter on the beat when it comes to Chris Fedor, one of the best analysts in the game when it comes to Jimmy Watkins. And you, you get some silly takes from me here and there as well. But let’s get on into it when we talk about these Subtext questions. The first one comes from Jeff in Friday, Harvard, Washington. He says, hey guys, Cals have been looking excellent lately in spite of injuries. Perhaps the quote unquote work in progress is starting to show progress. I’m curious how you see the rotation working when Darius Garland, Evan Mobley and Max Strus are all back. Where does everyone fit? Jaylon Tyson, Maquon Tomlin, Craig Porter Jr. Tyrese Proctor. Wow, that’s a deep roster. And I think this is a good question because we’ve talked about it slightly on this podcast. The difficulty of re acclimation once a team is in a groove, right? This Cavs team over the last 14, 15 games has been playing some of its best basketball. And now we’ve seen that Darius Garland is going to be going on this five game road trip and the potential for him to make a return is still there. Then you have guys who are potentially still working towards recalibration to make a jump back into the lineup. Max Strus. But when these guys get back, the minutes that are being given to Jaylon Tyson to Nae’Qwan Tomlin are going to depreciate. And I’m curious as well as a subtexter, guys, what do you think this roster looks like and do you think it’ll be a difficult process for Kenny Atkinson to mix and match and find lineups and combinations that he’s worked so hard to figure out to this point in the season.
Chris Fedor: Yeah, I do think it will be difficult, and I think that’s the mark of a good roster. I think anytime you’re talking about who’s going to be in the lineup, who’s not going to be in a lineup, you want to make the decision on Kenny Atkinson as difficult as possible. And I feel like Nae’Qwan Tomlin has done that with his energy, his activity, his growth as a basketball player. I feel the same thing about Craig Porter Jr. And, you know, Tyrese Proctor. For somebody who was not supposed to play much, if at all, in the NBA, for him to just be ready and be willing and able to do some positive things when his number is called on, you know, that’s big. And I, I think for him, somebody like him, somebody like Lonzo Ball, you just have to wait your turn. You have to see what’s going to transpire. Are guys going to be missing? Is there a situation that calls for you to go out there on the floor? We’ve talked about this a bunch on this podcast. You know, part of being a role player is understanding that you’re not Donovan Mitchell, you’re not Evan Moakley, you’re not Jared Allen, you’re not Darius Garland, you’re not promised minutes, you’re not promised opportunities, you’re not promised shots. So when you do get those opportunities, it’s up to you to be ready and capitalize on those opportunities. And I think baked into any role players role is sometimes you’re going to play, sometimes you’re not going to play, especially on a deep, talented team that has championship aspirations. So I think the easy answer is that, yeah, there are going to be minutes that depreciate, but I think that’s Lonzo Ball, that’s obviously Tyrese Proctor. I think it’s either De’Andre Hunter or Dean Wade, depending on what the situation calls for, depending on how those guys are playing, playing, depending on how they look in their first couple of runs, and Craig Porter Jr. Is probably going to not play as many minutes as what he’s been playing recently. Because some of the things that Craig does from a ball handling perspective, from a driving to the basket perspective, getting into the paint, Darius Garland can replicate some of those things on the offensive end of the floor. Um, so I do think it’s a difficult decision for Kenny. I think it’s delicate anytime you’re talking about these things, but you want it to be as difficult as possible. Because it tells you you want these to be painful decisions. Because it tells you that you’ve got enough guys that are worthy of. Of that kind of playing time that. That have filled in admirably during these absences.
Jimmy Watkins: I would say, by and large, though, these are less painful decisions. We’re talking about Darius Garland coming back. Okay, everyone move out of the way. He’s an all Star. Evan Mobley, come out. Coming back. Okay, everyone move out of the way. He’s an all Star. Max Strus, core member of this organization, leader in the locker room. Everyone get out of the way. Now, the trick is, as Chris is talking about there, that creates a ripple effect, right? And as you insert Darius now that. That makes everyone take a step back and you have to. The second unit minutes become more complicated because now some of the guys who have been spot starters are. Are now part of that shuffle. Right? And I think it can be a sliding scale too. Right? Like a nice win. Okay? Nae’Qwan Tomlin, I think, is going to play less. When the team is fully healthy. There’s an ante. Poyer, he’s gonna. He’s gonna play less. But on nights when the Cavs are looking sluggish, Kennedy might just get fed up and say, you know what, Maquan? Go in there and muck the game up. That’s what you do. Go get some deflections, get some rebounds.
Ethan Sands: Throw. Go.
Jimmy Watkins: Go brutalize the ramp. Go. Go. Throw down a dunk that gets the crowd into it, right? Like on a night where then there will be. There will be rest days too, over the course especially, I’m thinking Darius for the rest of the season, they’ll be very careful with him because of. Again, I asked Kenny the other day if this. If this new toe injury and the absence related to it could potentially help with the other toe. And he said, huh, I hadn’t thought about that. I don’t believe you. I don’t believe you. I think they have thought about it. I think they hoped for it, but I think we. I think they kind of know what the deal is with Darius toe. It’s just going to be a thing. The surgically repaired toe is going to be a thing the whole year. So his minutes will be managed carefully. He will rest on certain nights and that, like some of this over the course of the regular season will take care of itself. Now how. How do you stay ready within those. With within fewer opportunities and more random opportunities? That’s harder. We. I get that. That’s also like Chris said, That’s your job as a role player. You don’t know when your chance is going to come, but you rise to the occasion and the real, the real crunch will come in the playoffs. That’s when the rotation will really shrink again. You could still press an Aquan Tomlin button here and there. You can still, you know, put Craig in there if you, if you need an extra ball like in a Pacers esque series. Obviously the Pacers won’t be there this year, but if you need more ball handlers, put more ball handlers on the court.
Chris Fedor: You’re learning.
Jimmy Watkins: These are helpful things to learn about your team right now that you have more useful players. But them’s the breaks. Not everyone can play.
Ethan Sands: I think it’s interesting when we talk about just the difficulty of the coordination of these pieces, right. That’s part of the reason why the earlier part of the season looked the way it did because Kenny Atkinson was actively pursuing the combinations and lineups that were necessary in whatever the matchup or the game might have entailed. And sometimes it’s still going to be a struggle because maybe you need to Jimmy’s point to throw Nae’Qwan Tomlin in there for minutes just to see what will happen. And I think the belief and the trust that these players are earning now when injuries are prevalent is going to help them when it comes time to get those opportunities. And Kenny is not going to be as hesitant as he might have been earlier to the season. Right. He talked about it last night, like I asked him about guarding luka and guarding LeBron and Nae’Qwan Tomlin being a pest in that situation and saying that he would not have done that earlier into the season, not even like 10 games ago, would Kenny Atkinson have had the trust to put Nae’Qwan Tomlin, who was a raw basketball player, a raw defender in every sense of the word, on players who were likely going to be in the hall of Fame when their careers are all said and done. That piece, that trust that these guys are getting is extremely important when we talk about the future of this season and also the future of the franchise, especially when we talk about the contracts and all those things of players that might not be here at the end of the year and might get traded before the trade deadline of February 5th. And that kind of gets into the next portion of our conversation on today’s podcast.
Chris Fedor: I mean, the other thing is that during the regular season, you don’t just have to eliminate guys from the rotation. You can if you want to, but you don’t Just have to just take them away and say, all right, Max Strux is back, Evan Mobley’s back, Darius Garland’s back. All three of them are back at the same time. You’re out of the rotation. It can be take some minutes from Nae’Qwan, take some minutes from Craig, takes some minutes from De’Andre, takes some minutes from Dean Wade and then Dean Wade or Jaylon Tyson goes from playing 35 minutes to 30 and then Dean Wade goes from playing like 28 minutes to 22, De’Andre goes from playing like 25 to 26, down to 20. And the other variable here is that Max Strus hasn’t done anything like to this point since fracturing his foot. He hasn’t done two on two. He hasn’t done three on three. He hasn’t done four on four. He hasn’t done five on five. He hasn’t taken any contact. There was a limited off season for him. There was no training camp. He’s played in zero basketball games to this point. So Max Drew’s last year for the Cavs and since they signed him in 2023 has been a high minute guy and he’s been a fixture of their rotation. He’s been a fixture of their starting lineup. But nobody knows what version of Max the Cavs are going to get when he finally does come back. So he might be healthy enough to play, but how effective is he going to be and how ready is he going to be for something more than 15 minutes a night? I don’t know. But, but I don’t think the Cavs are just going to bring Max back after everything that has transpired since late August and say we need you to play 30 minutes. We’re talking about a smaller minute allocation for, for somebody like Max and that could make it easier to, to find some playing time for, for Nae’Qwan Tomlin, for Craig Porter Jr. For some of these other guys that, that have been effective and have filled in admirably during a lot of these absences.
Ethan Sands: All right, let’s get into the next question from our subtexters and this one is going to be about the trade deadline. It’s going into all of the different scenarios that we’ve been seeing thrown around on social media, especially today where it was extremely prevalent on X formerly Twitter with Brett Siegel mentioning that the Lakers continue to be linked to, to De’Andre Hunter and clutch Points reporting that Hunter is likely to be traded before February 5th. And then also Brian Winhorse of ESPN on ESPN in Cleveland saying that there’s a decent Chance that the Cavs do something ahead of the tread deadline and that they’ve considered making a home run swing. So Anu from San Francisco asks, what is the Latest on a De’Andre Hunter trade? Chris, I know you said the Cavs are taking calls on him. What is your Ethan Jimmy’s best De’Andre Hunter trade? I keep reading De’Andre for Roy Hachimura. Would you take that?
Chris Fedor: I just want to say from people that I have talked to, my sources tell me that a general framework has been discussed between the Cavs and the Lakers and a third team. Um, it’s hard because the Lakers are right, right below the apron, like $900,000 below the apron. But they are a tax team. So there are some restrictions that they have. And we all know the complications for the Cavs when it comes to trades. They can’t aggregate salaries. They only have really one draft pick, first round draft pick that they can trade. They have to be like right on the number in terms of salary matching purposes. But my sources tell me that the Cavs and the Lakers have discussed a general framework surrounding De’Andre Hunter of Rui Hachimura and Dalton connects and then bringing in a third team. Now look, there are, there are third teams that could be helpful. Brooklyn has the lowest salary number of any team in the NBA. They might be a destination that is willing to take some salary. The Utah jazz, they are 29th in salary in the NBA. They might be a destination that’s willing to take some salary back. By the way, the team that the Cavs have traded with most frequently in the Kobe Altman era is, is Utah. And one of his best friends is Justin Zanuck, an executive for the Utah Jazz. So they do business well together, they work well together, they trust each other. They could be a landing spot for some salary. I think Washington is a team that is low in terms of salary. They could be a third team that’s pulled into it. So I do think when you’re talking about the Cavs, they have to get creative. There aren’t too many assets that they have. So. So the move that they make, they have to feel like is an improvement, is a step forward, isn’t just something to dump salary and get out of the second apron. I mean, they still want to be a competitive basketball team. They still want to find helpful players. And the idea between the Cavs and the Lakers is logical.
Jimmy Watkins: Right?
Chris Fedor: The Lakers are theoretically looking for a future LeBron James replacement in case LeBron retires, in case LeBron leaves in free agency. That’s theoretically what De’Andre Hunter would be. Now, it may be problematic for a team like the Cavs to look at De’Andre’s salary and say 23, $24 million a night for the level of production that we’re getting, when we already have the highest salary number of any team in the NBA, when we’re the only team in the second apron. Like, it’s not all that appealing to us to have that number on our books moving forward, but for a team like the Lakers that may lose LeBron, that’s actually appealing to them. They’re like, hey, we’ve got somebody who’s locked into a contract. We know he’s going to be with us. He could occupy that position. They can convince themselves that in a different system, in a different situation, surrounded by different players, playing alongside Luka, that they could get a better version of De’Andre Hunter. And for the Cavs, Rui Hachimura is an expiring contract. So not only would you theoretically get a helpful player who by the way, is shooting 43% from three point range and he’s averaging 12 points per game and he can guard multiple positions, he can play the three, the four, or the five, he’s on an expiring contract. And that clears some of your salary cap complications moving forward. Like if you’re queasy about the fact that you have De’Andre Hunter on on his number this year and next year and it limits your flexibility and it kind of forces your hand into some other kind of salary gymnastic type moves, well, you get a player similar to De’Andre and you don’t have to worry about that number staying on your books next year. This gives you a sense of cap relief because you’re getting somebody on an expiring contract. So I think the reason why the Lakers continue to be brought up As a logical De’Andre landing spot, it’s because the Lakers would theoretically get what they want and the Cavs would theoretically benefit from that kind of deal as well. Not only do they get a helpful player, but like I said, the salary cap situation kind of gets cleared up a little bit. Not, not to the level of like, hey, like all of a sudden we’re out of the second apron completely and we have all of this salary cap flexibility. We could just go sign whoever we want to. No, not to that level, but to a level that makes it a little bit easier for team building and other kinds of moves around the periphery.
Jimmy Watkins: Yeah, I kind of feel like Rui Hachimura and De’Andre Hunter are a little Spider man memey. Both are players that teams want to be more than they are. They want a little bit more defense from De’Andre Hunter. The Lakers have been trying to make Rui like their big wings defender for a few years now. He’s kind of, it’s just like, it’s kind of like what the Cavs do with Jaylon Tyson. Now that Rui is your big wing defensive guy, it kind of says more about the rest of your roster than it does about Rui. He’s fine on defense. I don’t him like De’Andre Hunter. Not, not going to be doing a, a ton of moving off the ball, which is fine. He’s been, he’s developed into a nice three point shooter, stand still. He can be there and space the floor for guys and he’s Gonna, he liked De’Andre Hunter. He’s going to take a step back mid range jumper that you’re not going to like every couple of trips down the court. You know, like maybe not that often, but more often than you would like. But at the end of the day, again, cap flexibility, you’re. You’re also swapping out that. Like we said, we’ve been saying there’s bad aura, bad energy around the De’Andre Hunter Cavs experience right now. I think if you just. If they were to swap out, if they were swap out De’Andre Hunter for like, I don’t know, thicker De’Andre Hunter in, in Rui Hachimura and the vibes were a little better, I think it could work, I think it could work for what they need him to do for the rest of this year and then you clear his money and see what you can do in the off season. Right. I think that, I think that makes sense to me. I would, I don’t. I’m trying to think of what other. I think I, my, my initial reaction is ah, really? Okay, I guess. But then I don’t, I, I don’t want to say that and not have a better idea. So financial flexibility is a fine way to operate at this deadline. Get under the second apron, unmarry yourself to this team. Still, still be optimistic about what they can do in the playoffs. Be open to that. We’re not saying blow it up right now, but unmarry yourself to this core because as it stands right now, it doesn’t look like a core that’s worth dipping into the second apron for specificity.
Ethan Sands: For specificity sake. I want to give a little bit more background to the whole Lakers first apron, Cleveland Cavalier second apron dynamics. And especially when it comes to just the amount because I was doing a lot of reading and some conversating. Shout out to realcastfan.com for having an entire trade 10 line guide. It’s insane but when it comes to the Lakers they can’t take back more than $977,000 unless they offload more salary since they’re hard capped. Right? So the De’Andre Hunter’s incentives to all of these things are going to make it even more tricky. And as Chris mentioned, you would likely have to bring in Brooklyn or Utah to be a third team to can facilitate the extra earnings that have the space for that kind of stuff like Rui Hachimura and Dalton Connect for De’Andre Hunter is about $1 million off before you talk about the incentives. So when you talk about that kind of deal for the Lakers and them being hard captain, the Cavs being a second apron team and not being able to aggregate, it just makes things so much more difficult when you try to put these things together. And obviously $1 million off doesn’t seem like a lot, but it can be significant in these kind of contract decisions. So I came with a couple of different options as I knew that the Lakers conversation was going to come up and to a news question I would like to hear from you guys. Which one you think is most beneficial for the Cavs or if you have a better idea? So a couple that came to mind for me. De’Andre Hunter for Dahron Sharp and Heywood Highsmith. De’Andre Hunter for Dennis Schroeder and Devin Carter. De’Andre Hunter for Bobby Portis and Andre Jackson Jr. De’Andre Hunter for Malik Monk. Are these any that you think that would be helpful for the Cavs in areas that they may be lacking or an area where they can improve in the seventh, eighth, ninth man on the roster or in a rotation to enhance their chances going into the playoffs?
Chris Fedor: The sense that I get is that The Bobby Portis Jr. Thing has kind of passed because Milwaukee has gone in the tank and now they’re going a different kind of direction. You know, if we were having this conversation about three weeks ago, Milwaukee was looked at around the NBA as acting out of desperation to try and appease Giannis and maybe even keep Giannis. But now it’s about are we trading Giannis at the trade deadline or are we trading Giannis in the off season? So for them, De’Andre Hunter doesn’t make a lot of sense taking back a $25 million player for this year and next year on a team that isn’t going to compete. It benefits them to Tank, like in the situation that they’re walking toward with Giannis list future, it makes more sense for them to tank and try and get young assets, expiring contracts, draft capital, all of those kinds of things. So I do think that that one has kind of passed. I do think that general framework was discussed from both sides at a time that Milwaukee was weighing their options of, okay, what can we do with Bobby Fortis Jr. What can we do with Kyle Kuzma? Like, how can we get more helpful players than those guys? And De’Andre was one that again, a team can say he’s not in a great situation, they’re not using him properly. Two years ago he had a career year with the Atlanta Hawks. We can get that guy back because teams convince themselves of those things all the time. But the outlook in Milwaukee has changed drastically over the last three weeks. So I would say that that one kind of goes to the side day. Ron Sharp is interesting, but I, I just don’t know where that kind of player fits on this team. And I mean that from if, if we always talk about, for the Cavs, it’s about the playoffs and what is it going to look like in the playoffs and who’s going to help them in the playoffs. How does that guy get on the court? Evan Mobley is going to play 38 to 40 minutes a night in the playoffs, right? They’re going to lean heavily on Evan and maybe that’s on the higher side of things. But two of your most important players occupy that particular position and Evan Mobley is the de facto backup center. It’s going to be hard for Learning junior to get playoff minutes. I think it’s going to be hard for Thomas Bryant to get playoff minutes on this team. I think so. I don’t know why you would take De’Andre, who of the assets that the Cavs have that are quote unquote expendable. And I don’t think they have an appetite still when it comes to listening on any of the core four. I think that’s more likely to happen in the off season, depending on what happens in the playoffs with this group. De’Andre probably has more value than Lonzo because I think teams around the NBA say he’s more of an on court helper, more of an on court asset. And Dean Wade, like I think of those three, De’Andre Lonzo and Dean Wade, the ones who continue to come up as realistic or somewhat realistic possibilities. I think the Cavs would want to keep Dean Wade most of those three. So now you’re talking about essentially De’Andre and Lonzo and if one of those two guys is your path to potential improvement, I don’t know how you take De’Andre and you improve the roster by getting day Ron Sharp. Not this roster anyway to me so of the ones that, that we have talked about I, I think Rui still is the most intriguing one because of the salary cap flexibility they get and the helpful on court piece that they would get as well.
Jimmy Watkins: Yeah, the dynamic at play here is pretty interesting because the Cavs are trying to plan for the future a little bit at this deadline while also maximizing the present. Because from their perspective, I mean again the east is wacky. We don’t, we don’t trust any of these teams. The Cavs are starting to fight finally put it together a little bit here. So like a. I think in a day Ron Sharp I kind of like as like future Jared Allen insurance. I could see that. And future future guy who you know plays can play next to Evan Mobley and ever eat up some of those five minutes so Evan Mobley doesn’t have to play full time. Five. Right. But. But what now? That’s, that’s waiting. What do you do now? I don’t, I don’t know. I think the best option is to. Again, I’m trying to rack my brain. I’ve been going through basketball records and SPO track and find a better deal. But I think, I honestly think when you’re trying to do both of these things at the same time, I think breaking even, so to speak, on De’Andre Hunter and getting under the apron or having to get an expiring contract will eventually help to get you under the apron. That’s pretty good business. That’s pretty good business for the Cavs, even if it looks like a net neutral.
Ethan Sands: For now, to everybody’s point, this is by no means a simple conversation for the Cleveland Cavaliers, not only because of the financial situation that they’re in, but also understanding that they just got De’Andre last year. They are just starting to feel like he’s can get back to where he’s been at.
Chris Fedor: Right.
Ethan Sands: And what level he was at last year. And I think that’s a difficult reality for them because of the reason that they signed him, calling him the missing piece, Kobe Altman saying that they have addressed the small forward issue and now you’re talking about trading him at the same time as last year you acquired him. So that gets into the next question. And final question for today’s podcast. The question comes from Pranav in Columbus, Ohio, saying, I’M concerned we may be dismissing De’Andre Hunter too fast because of the rise of the youth. Now, the proof of our eyes is that Jaylon Tyson and the young crew bring energy, fearlessness and tenacity. All the things that the team has been missing from and criticized for in the last few playoff runs. De’Andre Hunter, who initially seemed to be, that is, way underachieving and yet here’s a person with the years of experience who may very well turn it on like he did against the Lakers, and those who are inexperienced might face challenges in a long season. If I were the Cavs, I would not trade De’Andre Hunter right now. I believe he will come back. I worry about relying too much on our amazing young players who still haven’t been tested. What do you think? And the first thing I think when it comes to this conversation is the lack of De’Andre Hunter’s playoff experience as well his injuries during that timeline, not being able to have that experience. But the understanding is because he’s been in the league longer, because he has that mental fortitude, that mental toughness that this Cavs team needs, that maybe just being around playoff environments more than Nae’Qwan Tomlin has or Jaylon Tyson has could transfer more than what they they might be able to bring. But when it comes to those two, Jaylon Tyson and Aquan Tomlin, I’m not really worried about mindset. It’s just about the productivity on the floor. Sure, Craig Porter Jr. Don’t know. Larry Nash Jr. Been there. Dean Wade, been there. You see what these players are capable of on the biggest stages, but it’s about the younger guys and what they’re going to be able to produce. And De’Andre Hunter, his age and just being around those types of environments and atmospheres could help him more.
Chris Fedor: Well, that’s the other thing that I would say, is that the Cavs aren’t just going to throw away De’Andre Hunter. They’re only going to make a move involving De’Andre if they feel like it upgrades their situation. And situation is complex and we’ve talked about all the complexities of it, but if they feel like it’s going to upgrade their situation, then they’ll try and do it. But if they look at it and say, well, it’s a lateral move, it doesn’t give us the cap flexibility that we want, it’s not what we would perceive as an upgrade, it’s not something that’s going to help us in our quest for a championship, then they’re going to say thanks, but no thanks. You know Wanting to do something during the trade deadline and actually doing it are two completely different things. So if there are teams out there that are going to be interested in De’Andre and there are teams that are interested in De’Andre, the Cavs have to get an offer or they have to get pieces back that they would look at and say, yes, this makes sense for us to do it. Yes, we’re going to say yes to this particular trade. And I understand, you know, when it comes to fans that are looking at it saying, well, De’Andre is more experienced than Jaylon, De’Andre is more experienced than Nae’Qwan Tomlin, De’Andre’s more experienced than Dean Wade. There’s, like, more comfort that you have with De’Andre based on what he’s done in the past, what he’s done throughout his career. If we’re just talking about him with the Cavs. See, sometimes production is. Is tied to opportunity. Sometimes production is tied to how you’re used within a system. Sometimes production is tied to the situation that you’re in. So, like with De’Andre, the Cavs have never consistently looked the way that they thought they were going to. De’Andre has never consistently looked the way that the Cavs thought he was going to. So it feels like even though they talked about it being a seamless fit and he can play multiple positions and he can play alongside the core four or without the core four and all those kinds of things, there just isn’t a lot of data backing that up. So I think you could tell yourself that part of the issue here is that it hasn’t been a proper fit for one reason or another. It just hasn’t fit the way that we thought it would. And we’re not going to get the best version of De’Andre in. In this situation. You know what I mean? And. And we’re not going to be the best version of ourselves with De’Andre playing extended minutes or getting an expansive role that he probably wants. And if we’re just looking at, like, Cav, specific things, no, Jaylon Tyson doesn’t have the same background as De’Andre. He hasn’t had the same consistent success throughout the course of his career. But he seems like a better fit, doesn’t he? It seems like Jaylon, if you get into a playoff environment, not only is he going to be ready, but whether he’s starting or coming off the bench, that’s not going to be a problem. Whether he’s playing next to two bigs or just one big, that’s not going to be a problem. Whether he’s playing Alongside the core four or without the core four, that’s not going to be a problem. And Jaylon’s just been better than De’Andre and I, I think you have to trust in that, and I think you have enough data that supports that.
Jimmy Watkins: Yeah. I say two things here. Um, number one, I think it’s totally fair to say don’t get too juiced on the young guys ahead of the playoffs. I’m going to put Jaylon Tyson in a different category for now. But like Nae’Qwan Tomlin, Craig Porter Jr. Even if we’re talking about De’Andre Hender’s position, like, no. No reason to get fooled by the hot Dean Wade winter again. You don’t need to do that because we know that Dean Wade gets hurt. We know that his confidence comes and goes, and we know by the like, that doesn’t happen. Happy injury like we were talking about at the top of the top of the show about what happens when guys come back. Like, Dean Wade’s got. Wouldn’t be one of the guys. He’s proven himself to be invaluable to this team, but his minutes are going to go down. His opportunities are going to go down. He’s going to have fewer opportunities to, like, play his way. He’s clearly a let the game come to me, play my way into a game kind of guy. Right. He’s going to have less time to do that. And some. That’s. That’s when you get, you know, in 25 minutes, Dean Witty has more time to stretch his wings. Okay, that’s fine. 15 minute Dean Wade. It’s like, okay, hey, yeah, do something. You’re going to run out of time if you keep letting the game come to you at this point. So I get it. I understand the, the concern of. Hold on. We’re. We’re trading a player at a premium position who at one point was a knockdown shooter and has crazy defensive tools because of what, a half of a season that’s been slow and the point guard hasn’t been there most of the year. And like, we’re sure about this. Hold on. Pump the brakes. I understand all that, but I don’t really think that this is about the guys behind De’Andre Hunter as it is about De’Andre Hunter. Yes, Jaylon Tyson has been awesome. And yes, frankly, I’m just starting to buy all the way into, like, Jaylon Tyson’s a playoff guy. You can play him 30 minutes in a playoff series. I’m open to being wrong about that. The playoffs are different for everybody. Their first time his jump shot might leave him for a little while, but like even the thing about Jaylon Tyson is even when his jumper leaves him, he’s still going to find ways to impact the game. He’s going to hustle his ass off on defense and create extra possessions with the offensive rebounds. Do little things. His screen game with his two man game with Donovan is becoming a staple of the Cavs offense right now. That will be very valuable in the playoffs, particularly if defenses don’t trust Jaylon Tyson to hold up in the playoffs because they will put a weak defender on him and Donovan will say, will say, hey you, come here, set a screen for me so I can try to get this weaker defender on me. Or we can throw you the ball. If they send two at me because they don’t want the weaker defender on me, that’s valuable. De’Andre Hunter. De’Andre Hunter has a different kind of skill set. He, it’s, they don’t have the same kind of chemistry in that way. This thing just hasn’t worked. Like it’s, I know people say like they, people look at last night’s Lakers game like, oh, he was scoring, that’s great. I don’t think that’s the issue either. Like, De’Andre Hunter was brought here to be a defensive stopper and his defense is too inconsistent. To me, that is the bottom line. To me, that is the bottom line. The Caps have found other ways to plug that wing, that wing hole that they’ve had for all this time too. That’s true. Jaylon Tyson is a big part of this. I just think the Cavs are like, hey, we tried it with De’Andre Hunter. He doesn’t fit here. No hard feelings. Like we, like I said last night, I think De’Andre Hunter can work somewhere else. I think playing next to Luka Doncic where your job is to get, he’s going to get a ton of shots because everyone, the entire defense is so focused on Luka and Luka is frankly a much better passer and orchestrator of offense than Donovan Mitchell, no disrespect, Luka is just one of the best in the world. That could work, but it just hasn’t worked here. And I get what you’re saying, like I get what people are saying about, well, you don’t want to give up too soon. This is kind of a, a short window. Do we think this is going to get better as more guys come back? Do we think De’Andre Hunter’s role is going to steady? I don’t necessarily believe that. I think we Ethan And I talked about this last week. I think there is a chance the cavs could lose De’Andre Hunter over the course of the. Like, just kind of loosen from an engagement perspective because he becomes one of the guys. He. He is. He is. It may. It’s already happened. He is no longer in the I need to get you 30 minutes, no question tier. He’s in the. Like, you’re gonna go. You’re gonna. You’re gonna modulate between like, 15 to 25. Depends on how you’re doing. Like, De’Andre Hunter might. Might feel right now like he’s looking over his shoulder at times. Because if I’m. If I don’t. If I’m not making this shot, he shouldn’t be thinking this way because it’s not about your shot making. But I could see him thinking this way, but if I don’t make this shot, I’m coming out, and that’s not where you want to be.
Chris Fedor: And the other thing is, the Cavs can’t afford that guy in the situation that they’re in. The only team in the second apron, the highest payroll in the NBA. It’s about, does your contract match what you’re bringing on the floor? And you have to make difficult financial decisions. They did last off season. Think they wanted to let Ty Jerome go? You think they didn’t recognize what Ty did for them and how important he was? He was a finalist for six man of the year, but they looked at their situation and they said, we can’t afford him. We have to make difficult decisions with this roster given the realities that we’re working under here. It’s the same thing when it comes to De’Andre. It’s just the decision is happening now as opposed to the off season because they’re being proactive and because they feel good about some of the other options that they have and maybe some of the conversations that they’ve had with other teams about what they could potentially get back in return if De’Andre was in the conversation for six man of the year. This isn’t really a conversation because he’s playing to his contract. He’s the guy that the Cavs expected when they traded for him. He’s the guy that they said, you know what? He’s so good, we’re willing to go into the second apron because this is just our roster, and this roster with that version of De’Andre is going to be good enough. But they haven’t gotten that version of De’Andre. The version of De’Andre that they have gotten, the Cavs cannot afford in the salary cap situation that they’re in, he’s what, the seventh or eighth most important player on this team at this point. You can’t pay that guy $23 million. You just can’t. And again, like, you don’t want to put all your eggs in the young player basket, but when you have somebody like Jaylon Tyson who is consistently outplaying and out impacting. There was a Cavs player recently that was having a conversation with another reporter in the locker room and he said, jaylon Tyson has been our second best or third best player. And then that reporter looked at this player with a side eye and was like, what? What are you talking about? And then that player brought me over into the conversation to kind of back him up. But like, that’s the view of what Jaylon Tyson has brought to this team. If that was the view of De’Andre, there aren’t these trade conversations happening. But that hasn’t been the case. And if you have somebody who does a lot of the things that De’Andre was traded to do and he’s doing them at a higher level, it’s just becoming more and more difficult to justify keeping De’Andre on this roster.
Jimmy Watkins: I would, I would also say to the point of like, do you think this is going to get better? The Cavs are getting interest right now. If this thing, if they keep him and it doesn’t work out, what happens this summer? What happens this summer if the Cavs flame out in the playoffs again and this was their guy who they thought they could use to get out of the second apron and now he’s harder to move and now at the very least, you have to make a versus.
Chris Fedor: Heel to attach like a first round pick.
Jimmy Watkins: Yeah, exactly. Whereas now you can. A guy like Rui Hachimura, again, you could hear my muted enthusiasm. He’s fine. He’s become a pretty good three point shooter. I would say be careful about thinking that 43% three point shooting playing with Luka Doncic and LeBron James will transfer over to a different situation. Be very careful about that because Ruri Hachimura was not that before he got to the Lakers, but De’Andre Hunter shooting like 30%. So it’s all good. It’s all good, man. Like, it just hasn’t worked. It hasn’t worked. I, I think De’Andre Hunter is a good basketball player. I just think this is for a variety of different reasons, some of which I don’t really understand. It hasn’t worked out for him up here.
Ethan Sands: And I just want to reiterate the point that I don’t think this is a salary dump opportunity for the Cavs as much as they want to get off the second apron. Like, if they are going to salary dump somebody, it’s likely going to be Lonzo Ball.
Jimmy Watkins: Lonzo will be. Lonzo’s salary will dump itself at season’s end, right?
Ethan Sands: With all that being said, that’ll wrap up today’s episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. But remember to become a Cavs insider and interact with Chris, me and Jimmy by subscribing to Subtext. Want to hear your questions on next week’s episode? This is the only way to do it. You also get daily conversation and daily coverage on the Cleveland Cavaliers through Subtext and the only way and the only thing you have to do is sign up for a 14 day free trial or visit cleveland.comcavs and click on the blue bar at the top of the page. If you don’t like it, that’s that’s fine. All you have to do is text the word stop. It’s easy, but we can tell you that the people who sign up stick around because this is the best way to get insider coverage on the Cavs from me, Chris and Jimmy. This isn’t just our podcast, it’s your podcast. And the only way to have your voice heard is through subtext. Y’ all be safe. We out.