CLEVELAND, Ohio — In this episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast, Ethan Sands and Chris Fedor react to the Cavs’ first loss of the road trip, a 126-113 defeat to the Phoenix Suns, and examine what it revealed about the team’s readiness for playoff-level physicality.
Takeaways:
1. Frustration with Officiating Reached a Boiling Point
A significant source of frustration for the Cavaliers was the officiating, culminating in acting head coach Kenny Atkinson’s ejection after receiving two technical fouls. The team was irate over a stark free-throw disparity, having attempted only one free throw through the first three quarters against a team known for its physicality. Players and coaches felt that Phoenix was permitted a level of defensive aggression that the Cavs were not, which they believe dictated the game’s flow and handicapped their offense. Donovan Mitchell, while diplomatic, noted that he was grabbed constantly by the Suns, contributing to his turnovers and the team’s overall struggle to find an offensive rhythm.
2. Key Injuries Exposed a Critical Lack of Ball-Handling and Creation
The absences of primary ball-handlers Darius Garland and Craig Porter Jr. were acutely felt as the Cavaliers committed a season-high 22 turnovers. Donovan Mitchell, forced into the de facto point guard role, struggled with the burden, finishing with eight turnovers. The minutes when Mitchell was off the floor were particularly disastrous, as the offense looked completely lost. The podcast highlighted Lonzo Ball’s performance as a significant negative during these stretches, underscoring the team’s desperate need for a reliable secondary creator. This dependency on Mitchell and Garland exposes a major vulnerability, especially as the team navigates a difficult schedule with a depleted backcourt.
3. The Team’s Recurring Struggle with Physicality and Identity Continues
The game was another instance where the Cavaliers failed to match an opponent’s physicality, a theme that has plagued their season. Atkinson noted that “certain characters in this league take liberties and we don’t stand up to them,” a clear reference to the aggressive style of players like Dillon Brooks. This loss reignited the debate over the team’s core identity. While built with skilled, rhythmic offensive players, there seems to be an internal push to be a defense-first, physical team. This “flawed perception” of who they are leads to inconsistency, as they struggle against teams that test their toughness and take them out of their skill-based game.
4. Cavaliers Front Office Reportedly “Open for Business” Ahead of Trade Deadline
The loss and the team’s recent struggles have reportedly spurred the front office into action ahead of the trade deadline. Despite a recent winning streak, there is an internal belief that the roster as “currently constructed is not good enough” to meet the high expectations of the season. The Cavaliers are said to be among the most active teams in trade conversations, motivated to find immediate help. The key needs identified are a secondary playmaker to alleviate pressure on the primary ball-handlers and a tough, physical player with a “dog mentality” to address the team’s lack of consistent physicality and toughness.
5. Young Players Provide a Spark, but Reliance on Them Highlights Roster Gaps
A bright spot in the loss was the “fearless” energy brought by young players like Jaylon Tyson, Nae’Qwan Tomlin, and Tyrese Proctor. Their willingness to compete physically, exemplified by Tomlin getting under Dillon Brooks’s skin, is precisely what the team leaders have lacked at times. However, the fact that the team must rely on second-year and end-of-bench players to provide this necessary intensity speaks to a larger issue within the core rotation. While their performance gives the coach more lineup flexibility, it also emphasizes that the established, high-paid players are not consistently bringing the toughness required to win against gritty opponents.
Listen using the player below:
You can also listen using your preferred podcast app. Subscription information is below.
Subscribe and listen onApple Podcasts or Spotify.
The video version of the podcast is on YouTube as well.
Transcript
NOTE: This transcript was generated by artificial intelligence and could contain misspellings and errors.
Ethan Sands: What up, Cavs Nation? I’m your host, Ethan Sands, and I’m back with another episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. Joining me today, Chris Fedor, cleveland.com Cavs beat reporter. And we’re coming to you guys after the CAVS latest laws. 126-113 to the Phoenix Suns. And as we know, the Phoenix Suns are coached by Jordan Ott, who has a lot of his repertoire built based on time spent with Kenny Atkinson. But Kenny might have showed a different side of himself in today’s game, picking up two technicals and getting ejected from the contest. Chris, I want to get your takeaway from the entire contest itself, but also what it meant to see Kenny Yakinson get a little fiery, show himself in that capacity, especially in a game like tonight.
Chris Fedor: Ethan, I think the big takeaway is the number one. It’s something that the Cavs were talking about in the locker room after the game. It’s something that Kenny Atkinson was doing throughout the course of the game, holding up one finger and letting the referees know. The number one signified how many free throws the Cavs shot through the first three quarters of the game. They. They could not believe it. And look, Kenny Atkinson coming into the game showed so much respect toward the Phoenix Suns. He talked about them as the hardest playing team in the NBA, bar none. That’s his quote. Even harder playing than the Detroit Pistons, who are known for that. Even harder playing than the Oklahoma City Thunder, who are known for that. So Kenny knew coming into tonight’s game that it was going to be a physical game, that it was going to be a tough game, that it was going to test the Cavs. Could they stay in rhythm offensively? Could they minimize their mistakes? Could they handle the physicality? Could they withstand the physicality? Could they match the physicality? There have been different points throughout the course of this season that Kenny has said, hey, we didn’t match the physicality. We just didn’t bring it. The blowout loss against Houston on the road, and then tonight it was the same thing. And I think everybody inside the organization would admit that the Cavs did not bring the juice. They did not match the physicality, but they were more irate with the officiating crew for, for how the game was officiated and what they felt like Phoenix was able to get away with on the defensive end of the floor that the Cavs were not able to get away with. And that was their big takeaway from tonight’s game. I don’t think it’s one that they’re overly concerned about. Obviously it snapped a five game winning streak. They had been playing their best basketball, but they feel like for the most part, circumstances out of their own control dictated the final outcome of this one or at least the way that the Cavs played in this one.
Ethan Sands: And we kind of came in knowing that could be the case. Right. Because the Phoenix Suns were going to be without Devin Booker. They were going to rely on Dylan Brooks, they were going to rely on Grayson Allen. Two players who can be physical on the defensive end.
Chris Fedor: Known quality is really pesky.
Ethan Sands: Yeah. And just known for their physicality and some of their antics as well. Right. We heard Kenny Atkinson mention some players and how they play. Obviously when you look at the free throw margin after the game, it doesn’t necessarily tell the entire story of the contest. The Phoenix Suns finished shooting 18 free throw attempts and the Cavs had 11. So seven. The difference doesn’t necessarily seem too much, but when you watch the actual ball game, you get a sense of what Kenny Yaginson and the Cleveland Cavaliers are talking about. And it also showed itself when it comes to the ball handling. Because we knew coming into this contest the Cleveland Cavaliers are going to be without Darius Garland, Max Strus. They were going to also be without Craig Porter Jr. And these guys handled the rock for the Cavs and allow them to get off the ball. Especially guys like Donovan Mitchell, who finished with eight turnovers tonight when the Cavs finished with a season high 22 turnovers as a whole. Chris, when you talk about this turnover sequence and we talk about how much this has played a role in the Cavs losses or their playstyle, especially with Donovan Mitchell being de facto point guard. Is it something that you could be worried about when it comes to how this Cavs team goes moving forward and what Darius Garland could bring when he comes back to the lineup, I think.
Chris Fedor: We’Re talking about it from a short term perspective. Ethan, there are concerns here. What did the Cavs do in the non Donovan Mitchell minutes? They got rocked during those minutes. Now tonight, given the circumstances, like you said, no Darius, no Craig, what does that mean for the gaps? Well, it means Lonzo has to play big minutes. And Lonzo ball has been a negative for this team since the Cavs acquired him this off season from the Chicago Bulls, he has been a negative. At one point in tonight’s game, he was a minus 24 floor in 14 minutes. It looks a lot better at the end of this one because he was also on the floor in the final 10 minutes. When both teams emptied their benches and the young Phoenix Suns end of bench guys couldn’t handle the pressure defense of the Cavs, and the young energetic guys of the Cavs, including Tyrese Proctor, Nae’Qwan Tomlin, and then Larry Nance Jr. Was out there giving them some good minutes too. Like those guys brought it. They were physical, they brought the energy, but they were also playing against guys who don’t play a lot for Phoenix. So the margin of this game seems a lot more appealing if you’re a Cavs player. And if you look at some of the final box score numbers, including Lonzo balls, plus minus, like that’s skewed by what happened in the final nature, 9, 10 minutes when the game was already out of hand and already decided. So I think the Cavs have to ask themselves what can we do? How can we survive the non Donovan minutes? We don’t have Evan Mobley to anchor those lineups. We don’t have Darius Garland to anchor those lineups. Is it Jaylon Tyson? Do we run the offense through Jaylon Tyson at that point? Kenny Atkinson said before the game that he doesn’t believe it’s a long term thing for Craig Porter Jr. But Craig was one of the guys that went to voluntary shoot around earlier today for the Cavs and after that he felt something. Just like the other night in the game. He felt something and he asked to come out of the game. So if he’s still feeling it two days later and after testing it at a shoot around, you have to ask yourself what’s his status going to be for Sunday? And by the way, Portland plays physical too. So who do they go to to kind of orchestrate things offensively in the Don Donovan minutes? It might have to be Jaylon Tyson or they could do what they thought they were doing last year at the trade deadline and getting DeAndre Hunter to do that, right? Give him all the shots in the world, give him all the touches in the world, give him freedom within the offense to just go be DeAndre first option DeAndre and see how that works. But tonight against Phoenix, when Donovan was off the floor, the Cavs look completely lost. Now Donovan wasn’t good tonight, not a lot of guys for the Cavs were good tonight. And his turnover, some of them were perplexing. And if there’s somebody who should probably handle the physicality a little bit better than they did tonight, it’s definitely Donovan. Now Donovan did say he’s mild mannered, he’s very diplomatic. He blamed me and accused me of trying to get him fined. I had to remind him multiple times that I was not trying to get him fined. I was asking him questions about what the theme of the game was. It was the physicality, it was the technical fouls, it was the complaining to the referees. It was what Kenny Atkinson said in his post game press conference about the referees dictating the outcome of this game and allowing it to get out of hand. So I reminded Donovan of that. But as diplomatic as he is, he said that Phoenix grabbed him constantly and that played a part, at least a part in some of his turnovers. But you do have to wonder about the ball handling of this team, at least in the short term, because if Alonso is going to continue to get called upon and if he’s going to be the secondary creator. That hasn’t worked well for the Cavs this year. That’s as plainly as we can put it and it’s part of the reason why. Ethan, we’ve had conversations about as the trade line approaches, what are the Cavs going to do? What kinds of players could they benefit from? Going out to get a another creator makes sense for this team because when Darius is out, there just isn’t enough individual creation that the Cavs have. Yeah, you can do it from a systematic standpoint. You can try and get DeAndre at the elbow and see if he can work in the post. There are things that they can do. But for a pick and roll heavy team during this short term stretch, I think it’s going to continue to be a struggle and it might look ugly just like it did tonight.
Ethan Sands: Very interesting to see the dynamics, especially with Evan Mobley not being out there as he was kind of getting in the rhythm of being that secondary creator, that secondary offensive focal point, all those things. And then the focus came to Jared Allen and the Cavs not only defensively trying to protect the paint, which they did. They were able to win the points in the paint battle 56, 34 and Jared Allen through the first half was 6 of 8 from the field doing what he needed to do offensively, helping the Cavs stay close, and then he took just one shot in the entire second half. That sounds really familiar to the conversations we’ve had with Evan Mobley. But more than that, we’re talking about the personnel and the identity of this team fluctuating because of it. But I think the Cavs need to find a way to stay still, have the same mindset, have the same perspective on the perimeter, defensive sets that they’re trying to do and hone in on that end even with, maybe even more specifically when Evan Mobley is not available, because you understand that Jared Allen can only do so much on the interior, so you need to be that much better when you’re talking about perimeter defense. And they simply weren’t. Tonight. The Phoenix Suns came away with 23 threes. They shot 47.9% from beyond York. It can’t happen. It can’t happen. Especially when you’re talking about the players that they’re missing and the offensive creation that they’re lacking. And to your point about DeAndre Hunter, I think he would benefit from being in a role where it’s like, you are the number one career, you are the number one offensive option. Because when he was in Atlanta, he had the mindset of, I just gotta go get it. When he got here after the trade deadline last year, it was, I don’t have sets being ran for me, I just have to go get it. And I think that would help him. But then you talk about the reliability of that piece, whether or not the Cavs decide to move him at the trade deadline. So I think this next couple of games could show Cavs fans, the Cavs organization, what they need to do at the trade deadline. Because maybe Kenny Akinson starts with DeAndre Hunter and it doesn’t work still. And then he’s like, okay, well you forcing my hand, Jaylon Tyson, go do what you’ve been doing. That could be emblematic of what the Cavs need to do at the trade deadline.
Chris Fedor: Yeah. And I think for this Cavs front office, Ethan, it’s pretty important to me to have an honest assessment and an honest evaluation of who they are, who they can be, how they want to play, what’s their identity supposed to be like, all those different things. And it can be difficult, right, because there have been so many peaks and valleys for this season and they’ve been playing well lately. So, you know, you can get caught up in the five game winning streak, you can get caught up in the seven wins in the last eight and get a false sense of, hey, this is who this team is, or this is what we’ve been waiting for, or this is who we always knew we could become. They have to have an honest assessment of who this team is because there is a somewhat ticking clock here. There are big time expectations, it’s the most expensive roster in the entire NBA and they owe it to themselves within reason. If they can go out and try to make a move, they owe it to themselves to put themselves in the best possible position. When The Eastern Conference has never been more wide open than what it is next year. Tyrese Halliburton’s probably going to be back. Next year, Jayson Tatum’s probably going to be back. And some of these threats that have kind of fallen off here are going to be right back to being part of your competition for getting out of the Eastern Conference. So I know there are limitations to what they can do. I know it’s complicated. I know that they have to be creative. But I do think this is a roster that needs help. I do think that this roster is not good enough as it’s currently constructed. Now, I do want to say about like a week ago, a week and a half ago, that’s how the front office was operating. They were coming off a bad loss. I think it was against the Jazz, I want to say it was against the Jazz. And they were going into this difficult stretch, kind of like a season defining stretch. What Kenny Atkinson has termed the turning point of the season. The two games against Philly, and not the first one, the first one was a big time blowout, but the second one where they knew Philly was going to come back, they wanted revenge. They were going to play harder. They were going to bring a level of physicality and intensity. Darius Garland was lost with an injury, Sam Merrill was lost with an injury. And they found a way, right? That was a gutsy win. That was a character building win. But before those two wins against Philadelphia, this front office huddled together. Not really in a state of panic necessarily, but in like, oh, things aren’t going very well right now. All the guys that we brought in this off season, none of them are playing well. Maybe Thomas Bryant is the best off season pickup that we had, which is a bad thing. Lonzo hasn’t worked. Right. DeAndre, who we traded for at the deadline and we were willing to go into the second apron for that hasn’t worked. The signing of Larry Ninge Jr. Hasn’t worked. So like all the things that we did to fortify this roster and improve ourselves from the team that lost in the second round to Indiana, none of that has worked. Like, we gotta do something here. We’ve got to be active. And then on the heels of that, you know, they go on this run where they win seven of eight. But if that’s how they were looking at it at one point, they can’t get blinded by this recent stretch of basketball. And from everything that I’m told, the Cavs continue to be active in trade talks. I think they have an understanding that they do need to improve this roster, and it’s just a matter of, like, what kinds of players are they targeting and what can they realistically get done here. There’s a difference between being motivated to do something and actually being able to pull it off. And I think there are people around the league that do believe that the Cavs are motivated to make a deal. And there are people around the league that have said that they’re, quote, open for business and they’re among the most active teams when it comes to trade conversations ahead of Thursday’s 3pm Buster. But there are also people around the league that are saying, well, in the situation that they’re in, it’s more complicated for them than anybody else. So what they want to do and what they end up doing might be two completely different things. Yeah.
Ethan Sands: And I think we’ve been pretty clear on this podcast, at least. Like, we don’t make the calls, we don’t make the decisions. We cannot invoke Toby Altman or Mike Gansey or Dan Gilbert to go out and make decisions just purely based on what we think might be best for this team. They are the end all, be all decision makers when it comes to this Cavaliers organization, this team. And I think it’s important to reiterate that just because as much reporting as that’s the beauty, the chaos, the whatever you want to call it for the trade deadline, so many things are put out into the ether, and whether or not they come to fruition is not in our hands at all. And it happens to sometimes come back on us when it’s like, hey, you said they were going to do this. We were. We were reporting on what we were hearing. We were giving what the sources were telling us. All these other things.
Chris Fedor: I don’t run the Cavs and I don’t make the decisions, but if it was me running the Cavs, the Cavs would have Giannis by the end of the trade deadline. I just don’t have those kinds of powers.
Ethan Sands: Bye bye, Evan Mobley. Anyway, I want to go back to one thing about the game and one thing that came Kenny Atkinson said after the contest, because I want to quote him correctly, he said certain characters in this league take liberties and we don’t stand up to them. I think that’s partially true. Also partially not true, because there were multiple times in tonight’s contest and obviously, like I mentioned, this could be referring to Dylan Brooks, it could be referring to Grace Allen because of their history.
Chris Fedor: Referring to Dillon Brooks. That was. That was quite clear.
Ethan Sands: So especially when it comes to Dillon Brooks. I liked how Jaylon Tyson competed. I liked how he was physical with him. I liked how, and I wrote about this for this morning, this past morning, about the fearlessness that him and Nae’Qwan Tomlin play with. Dylan Brooks’s whole MO Is mental manipulation, getting into your body, making you trying to crumble mentally, and the fact that Nae’Qwan Tomlin got under Dillon Brooks’s skin to the point where he had to be held back. And Nae’Qwan’s just standing there like, okay, you’re not going to do anything. Let’s just keep going. And to me, again, reiterating the article that I wrote for this morning, it just shows the fearlessness that this Cavs team needs. And Kenny Atkinson also talked about it after the game, saying like, that last unit, that last lineup that they had was great for them and it kind of got them back into the game to the point where Cavs fans were might look at the box scoring like, ah, this is that bad. Go back and watch the film. But because of the young guys, and I want to continue to give them their flowers because of how much they’ve worked to get to where they are. But Jaylon Tyson, Tyrese Proctor, Nae’Qwan Tomlin, Craig Porter Jr. Like, these guys are playing with a level of intensity that the Cavs need on a nightly basis. And we had this conversation on a recent podcast about how difficult it’s going to be to re acclimate the injured players who are going to get heavier minutes when they get back just because of their roles on this team. But I think it’s going to allow Kenny Atkinson to have the freedom, the reliability, the trust in these guys to plug and play whenever needed because maybe Craig Porter Jr. Maybe Darius isn’t playing well. So you plug in 6 foot 4 Tyrese Proctor, and you have more defensive acumen. You have the same shooting, you have all these things. Maybe Dean Wade or Larry Nance Jr. Isn’t playing well. So you add in the length of Nae’Qwan Tomlin, the defensive versatility of Nae’Qwan Tomlin and the rebound that he brings. Jaylon Tyson can basically do everything that the Cavs have been asking for, and he’s not necessarily in this grouping because as we have conversations on this podcast and as I’ve written for them, the website, I genuinely think that it’s between Dean Wade and Jaylon Tyson when it comes to the starting unit and who best fits when everybody returns. And as much as we’ve seen Max Strus impact gains and as Chris has reported on this podcast. We do not know what version of Max Strust the Cavs are going to get back. And because of the severity of a Jones fracture, the apparentness of potential re aggravation, the Cavs are going to be very careful, very cautious with that. And the point is, you do not want to have to switch somebody from a role player role to a starter role in the playoffs, especially when you are trying to go in peaking, as Kenny Atkinson has mentioned, throughout the season and trending upwards. Because a drastic change, one that would change the starting lineup, is something that would make things just weird when it comes to the lineups and the rotations that Kenny Atkinson has been building.
Chris Fedor: Going back to what you said about what Kenny said after the game, look, postgame was chaotic. I was the only reporter there, the only one there, so I didn’t really have an opportunity to breathe and I was still trying to file. My gamer, as Kenny was, was coming in for his post game press conference and I was trying to gather my thoughts on the right way to phrase questions and stuff to elicit the best possible responses. But the read that I had is when he said, certain characters in this league take liberties and we don’t stand up to them. The we that I think he was referencing was the league as a whole and the referees that are supposed to police these kinds of things. And yes, I don’t think it was a secret that he was talking about Dylan Brooks, but I do think that that was in reference to the league as a whole and the referees that are supposed to police it. They looked at the game, Kenny, the players, and they said, dylan can do things that we’re not allowed to do. Now, look, part of that’s your reputation. Draymond can do things that other guys can’t do because they have established themselves as a certain kind of player. Now, you can sit here and you can say, well, that’s not fair. Okay, maybe it’s not. But the game is governed by humans and they can be swayed by certain things, just like we can until we get robotic referees. There’s going to be a level of discretion, there’s going to be a level of emotion, there’s going to be a level of reputation involved here. The other thing that I would say is for whatever you want to say about Dillon Brooks, and everybody has said everything to this point, if the Cavs had Dylan Brooks, I would pick them to unequivocally win the Eastern Conference. That is a dude that they need. That is the kind of dude that they need. That is the kind of dude that I believe they’re missing now. Jaylon Tyson can morph into that. He can become a more prominent player on this team with more nightly importance. And that kind of tough, rugged, won’t back down, dog mentality will come up and maybe filter through the roster a little bit more. But I still think it’s tough for a second year player to embody that. I still think it’s tough for a second year player that might end up coming off the bench when this team gets to full strength to kind of like embody that. The difference is like Dylan Brooks when he was in Memphis, set the culture like that’s who he was, that was his role. And he was one of the most important and one of the best and one of the highest paid players on the roster. So it was easier for him to do that. Right? He embodied what Memphis tried to become. And now in Phoenix, he’s doing the same kinds of things. So like for the Cavs, theoretically you would want that to come from Jared Allen, Evan Mobley, Donovan Mitchell, Darius Garland. Just the way that this roster is constructed and the way that this team has been built. Again, Jaylon has those qualities. You can see those qualities, you can feel those qualities when he’s out there on the floor. But it’s just different with somebody like Dylan Brooks when you’re talking about like an organizational hierarchy and when you’re talking about a second year player in the NBA and a clearly established player who has like built that reputation in somebody like Dylan Brooks. But if the Cavs had him, I don’t know who beats them in the Eastern Conference, because now he’s making shots, now he’s scoring the ball and he’s doing all that other pesky stuff that really gets under your skin and kind of takes you out of your game. And that’s kind of what I felt, Ethan. I felt like a lot of tonight. And look, there were some ridiculous things that happened in the game. First of all, Dean Wade got thrown to the ground and there was one official that was standing literally two feet from that play when it happened, thrown to the ground by Dylan Brooks. And that official two feet away didn’t call it. And Mitchell Irvin about 20ft away on the baseline had to be like, no, no, no, no, no, dude, just got.
Ethan Sands: Thrown to the ground.
Chris Fedor: Like, we have to call that. We can’t allow that level of physicality. We can’t swallow our whistle on that kind of play. And then there was the whole one that got reviewed. So they go to the monitors and they rule that it was a flop on Dillon Brooks. So if you’re admitting that he flopped, how are you also calling a foul? Like it’s one or the other, Right. Either he flopped or he didn’t. And if he didn’t flop, cool. Then it’s a foul against Nae’Qwan Tomlin. But if you’re saying that he did flop and he exaggerated the contact, that isn’t it a no call? Like, I don’t know. And how is it that the second free throw that the Cavs took against a team that is as physical as the Suns that commit the third or fourth most fouls a night? The Suns. How is it that through 3/4 a Cavs team that they’re known for driving the basketball, they’re known, they got the ball inside Jared Allen for an entire first half, all of those kinds of things. How is it that they get one free throw in their second free throw of the entire game comes on a technical foul, A flopping technical foul. That, to me, was a little bit much. So there were some bizarre things that happened in this game between the Cavs and the Suns, things outside their control. And even it left me scratching my head. Like, what am I even watching? But I think the thing is, like, there are teams around the NBA that are going to try and take the Cavs out of their game. And I do feel like the Cavs got caught up in the Sun’s game a little bit too much in this one. I do think that they were looking toward the officials, that they were yelling back and forth at some of the Phoenix Suns players that they just couldn’t find the consistent offensive rhythm. So when teams test you that kind of way, and you know Dylan Brooks is going to test you that kind of way, you have to match that. And you can’t allow that to consistently happen. And those are the things that other teams around the NBA are watching. It’s not to say that the Cavs can’t match physicality. It’s not to say that every single time they play against a physical team, every, that they wilt like a flower. But there is this reputation. Everybody knows the reputation, and they’re going to test it every chance they get. And Dylan Brooks tested it over and over and over again. And Grayson Allen tested it over and over and over again. Rice, o’ Neill and Jordan Goodman and Colin Gillespie and all these different guys. And you could just see it on the face of the Cavs. Remember the other night against the Lakers where Luka just had this look of Get Nae’Qwan Tomlin the hell away from me. Like, get Jaylon Tyson the hell away from me. That relentless level of physicality, that relentless intensity, that relentless grabbing, pushing, shoving. It just looked like at times when you were looking at the calves and you were looking at facial expressions of body language, they’re like, do we really have to freaking deal with this for 48 minutes tonight? Like, seriously, like, Sam Merrill was going around screens and he was getting bumped, and he just had this look on his face like, you gotta be kidding me. Like, again. So I do think the Cavs have to learn how to handle that better, more consistently, and not allow those kinds of things to take them out of their game and take them out of their rhythm on the offensive end of the floor. Admittedly, I know it’s hard. Admittedly, I know it’s probably frustrating, but I think that’s something that they have to work on here moving forward, because teams are going to test that over and over and over again.
Ethan Sands: What I wanted to key in on are two big things. The physicality you talk about, because the Cows know it’s coming, coming every night, right? Doug Christie of the Sacramento Kings, not a good basketball team. But their idea to slow down Evan Mobley, even though they weren’t able to do it in this particular matchup, was be physical. Bump him off his spot, make him move, don’t let him get to a straight line drive, make him go side to side. All of these things, right? That is every stunning report that the Cavs go up against when it comes to opposing teams. And they know that coming in. And I even had conversations during a practice with players and coaches of the Cleveland Cavaliers talking about knowing that the Oklahoma City Thunder get away with more physicality, more grabbing, more holding, because that’s the way that they’re known to play the game. The Detroit Pistons get away with the same level of intensity on defender and the floor, and they know this and are preparing for that to be the same case in the playoffs, and they’re preparing for it now. It’s January 31st, Chris, and this is not something that’s been new. It’s not something that the Cavs haven’t been aware of coming into the season. It’s been something that’s been widely known by other teams. But the apparentness of how coaches and players are reacting to how opposing teams are guarding them, holding them, being physical with them, while also saying that they know that they’re going to get a different whistle because they built up this tenure of, we hold, we are Physical, we grab, we push. It can’t be two ends of the same stick. You have to be able to adapt to that thing or change the identity of what you’re known for when it comes to going up against these physical level teams. And that’s what makes it difficult. And to your point about the Eastern Conference as a whole, I want the Cavs to play Detroit in the playoffs. I think it would be a great series. I think it would be a great identity test for who they are, healthy, non healthy, whoever. I think that is one of the most intriguing series that could happen in the Eastern Conference. But then you look at the Boston Celtics, who play a similar kind of way. When you talk about Jaylon Brown at the point of attack, but when you talk about Jason Tatum potentially making a return, all these different things, I just think there’s an understanding mentally of what happens or what is going to happen on the court every given night against certain teams. But the physical awareness, the physical preparation, you can only be so prepared for it until somebody hits you. And that’s the conversation we’ve been having with J U Bickerstaff years ago when he talked about, you have to be able to take that first punch and punch back or you have to punch first. It’s as simple as that. And whether the Cavs are going to be reactive, whether the Cavs are going to be assertive in their mindset, coming into every game cannot be dependent on players that we’re not sure are going to play, like Nae’Qwan Tomlin. You can’t look at him and be like, hey, playoff minutes are coming. Yeah, you’re going to have to play over Evan Mobley because he’s not tough enough to handle that at this point in his career. Can’t happen. Evan Mobley is supposed to be the backup center and the starting power forward. He’s supposed to play 30 to 35 minutes a night in the playoffs. Right. Jaylon Tyson, second year, been playing phenomenally. He is not supposed to be someone that you’re going to in those situations. When you need toughness, when you need mental toughness especially, it’s good to have them, it’s good to build that trust. But whether or not you need them says more about the players around them than the players that they are becoming.
Chris Fedor: Yeah, I think. I think there’s just like a truth of life in the NBA is not every team is built the same kind of way. Not every team has the same style. A bunch of different styles can win. You know what I mean? And I think the truth from the Cavs perspective is that they are going to be built on skill and rhythm. That’s who they are. And at some point, they’re just going to have to embrace that. We’ve talked about this so much, and I was asking the question to so many different people inside the organization last year when they continued to say, we’re a defense first team. We’re a defense first team. No, you’re one of the most prolific offenses in the NBA. Why don’t you just adopt that? Like, why don’t you just be okay with that? You know what I mean? Like, you can win that way. It doesn’t mean that you’re the worst defense in the NBA or just because you’re. You’re a great offense, that you’re the Washington Wizards on defense. You know what I mean? Like, if your roster is built on skill and your offense is built on rhythm and ball movement and body movement and stuff like that, and you’re not, like, made up of all these physical, imposing players, then just say in like, you can’t do anything to change that in terms of, like, external additions. Then just figure that out, work with what you have, understand that that’s your personnel, that’s your way, and find a way to do that better than anybody else can do that, you know? And sometimes the Cavs do. Sometimes you look at them and the offense is beautiful and it’s rhythmic, and you see all the skill on the floor and all these dudes that are passing, dribbling, shooting, cutting, making plays, and you say to yourself, that’s how they’re made up. That’s who they can be. But it’s like they continue to push back on this notion of. Of who they are and how they have to go about winning and how they have to go about playing. And I think it’s like a flawed perception of who they are. And I think part of it is, like, who they think you have to be in the NBA and what they’re trying to aspire to be. But I think the truth is, Ethan, is as long as they have some of these defensive liabilities that are going to play big minutes, that’s the key. You can have defensive liabilities, and if they’re guy number seven or eight, eight in the rotation, guy who’s playing 15 to 20 minutes, that’s one thing, you can probably cover that up. But when you have these big minute players that are defensive liabilities and they have these physical limitations on the defensive end of the floor, there’s only so much you can do.
Ethan Sands: I think the last part of that, Chris, is not wanting to dismantle a foundation that have improved, proving to work in spurts, right? Like the defensive identity that Jamie south had built. Kenny Atkinson had came in and said that that’s what we’re going to continue to rely on. And having Jared Allen, having Evan Mobley, that’s it. And then this season it was changing the defensive presence to being more perimeter heavy, being more attack minded at the point of attack, all these things. And that kind of negates the point of having Evan Mobley and Jared Allen and being a defense first team. So I definitely think at the beginning of this conversation it was like, this could be a respect thing. Like it was built before your time. You don’t want to dismantle something that could still work. And then you had the most prolific offense that we’ve seen in years and then now it’s like, okay, you don’t have the same players that were giving you trouble defensively last season. Maybe you can be more point of attack heavy and not rely as heavy on the Jared Allens and Evan Mobley’s of the world. The numbers haven’t told you that that has planned out as much as they might have liked. And I’ve written about it, about the defensive identity change and all the things that the numbers are saying when it comes to the similarities of the rim attempts from last year to this year, the three point defense being worse than it was last year by a wide margin. Like, I just think there’s so much tinkering that’s had to go on with this team based on the personnel on the floor, the identity that was created, the thought process behind the scenes of who they can be and what they should be, rather than just leaning into the identity of who they are in the very moment, which is a team with a player that is top 15 in the league, arguably one of the best point guards that can facilitate and create for the bigs, some movement shooters, and then also a team that has two of the best RIM protecting bigs in the league that can, if you’re willing to allow them to, or put them in position to save as they have done their entire career. The liabilities that the Cavs have on the defensive end. And I think it’s just a structure that the Cavs have been continuously working on and trying to realize who they are. And to me it feels like they’re going to figure it out too late and then the roster is going to be completely different and then you’re going to be like, ah, you know, you might have been right. We had to change things up. So now the roster looks different and we’re completely altering how we go offensively and defensively based on who’s still here.
Chris Fedor: And the other thing is we look forward to the remainder of this really long road trip for the Cavs. Five games in 12 days, all on the west coast, different time zones and things like that. The Denver game has a much different look now that Jokic is back and he’s healthy and the Clippers are playing as good as anybody in the NBA. So if the Cavs don’t get Darius back, right, Depending on how long Craig Porter Jr. Is going to be out, this was going to be a tough road trick to begin with. Every time you go on the west coast and you change time zones and all the other scheduling related circumstances that are tied to this and four days in LA is probably not healthy for anybody when you’re talking about a basketball player and all the distractions and stuff like that. This was going to be a hard road trip to begin with, and now it’s just become more and more challenging. And, and I think what we see every time the Cavs are, are missing some key pieces, like three key rotation pieces is really, really difficult. You know, it just is. But things become more fragile, right? The margin for error starts to shrink a little bit. And what you’re able to make up for in other situations, you’re just not as much. And, and it’s not so much the, the, the natural production of, of Craig Porter Jr. Specifically, it’s that Craig Porter Jr. Playing means that Lonzo doesn’t. You know what I mean? Like, and all of a sudden some of those negative, hurtful minutes, they come back into play and you have to find a way to overcome those. When you’re talking about not having some of these other guys, like now you’re starting to ask more of DeAndre Hunter or you’re starting to ask more of Tyrese Proctor. And once you start asking some of these kinds of guys to give a little bit more, you turn around and ask yourselves, are they capable of that? This kind of situation that the Cavs are in, you probably don’t want to be in during this grueling west coast trip. And it’s the last big trip before the All Star break and there was a pathway to looking at this situation and saying the Cavs dug themselves out of a hole they’ve climbed in the Eastern Conference. They’re a game back of the second seed in the east this could all feel really, really different when the All Star break rolls around. Now you’re looking at this trip and you’re saying a lot more daunting given the circumstances here. And it could feel different around the All Star break for a much different reason. So they’re going to have to find a way to even though they’re dealing with real absences here, they’re going to have to find a way to overcome them in a way that they just couldn’t against Phoenix. Because even though Darius, you know, is is back on the court and he had his reevaluation and he’s working out, he still hasn’t taken contacts. So it’s just the situation that they’re in right now demands that they just have to piece it together as best they can and find a way. They did not tonight against Phoenix. It doesn’t mean that they can’t against Portland. It doesn’t mean they can’t against the Clippers. It doesn’t mean that they can’t against Sacramento or Denver. But they’re going to have to play beyond the officiating stuff. They’re going to have to play significantly better than the way that they did tonight against the Suns and understand that they just don’t have the margin for error that they usually do.
Ethan Sands: And now the Cavs head to Portland for the second game of this five game road trip, and they face off against the Trail Blazers on Sunday, a team that they’ve already lost to this season. We’ll have to wait and see how the Cavs turn this thing around and if they’re able to, especially when we talk about the difficulties that they have faced already this season and then what lies in front of them. But with all that being said, that’ll wrap up today’s episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. But remember to become a Cavs insider and interact with Chris, me and Jimmy by subscribing to Subtext. Sign up for a 14 day free trial or visit cleveland.comcavs and click on the blue bar at the top of the page. If you don’t like it, that’s fine. All you have to do is text the word stop. It’s easy, but we can tell you that the people who sign up stick around because this is the best way to get insider coverage on the Cavs from me, Chris and Jimmy. This isn’t just our podcast, it’s your podcast. And the only way to have your voice heard is through subtext. Y’ all be safe. We out.