CLEVELAND, Ohio — In this episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast, Ethan Sands, Chris Fedor and Jimmy Watkins react to the Cavaliers trading Darius Garland and a second-round pick to the Clippers for James Harden, debating who actually won the deal.
Takeaways:
1. Cavaliers Trade Garland for Harden to Win Now
The Cleveland Cavaliers have traded 26-year-old All-Star Darius Garland and a second-round pick to the Los Angeles Clippers for 36-year-old James Harden. The Cavaliers’ front office proceeded with the deal based on the belief that Harden is currently a better player and a superior fit for the team’s immediate championship aspirations. The speakers note that while Garland has been an All-Star, he was underperforming this season and rated as a net negative, whereas this version of Harden is a net positive. The front office believes Harden provides an upgrade as a better passer and a significantly better defender, bringing more size and veteran experience to a team aiming for a deep playoff run.
2. The Franchise Shifts to the “Donovan Mitchell Timeline”
This trade signals a significant strategic pivot for the Cavaliers, prioritizing Donovan Mitchell’s timeline to compete for a championship over the long-term development of younger players. The speakers argue that the front office re-evaluated its “patient” approach after concluding that neither Darius Garland nor Evan Mobley had taken the expected leap to a championship-ready level. With Mitchell under contract for only one more guaranteed season, the organization felt compelled to make aggressive moves to maximize its current window. This represents a shift from building around the younger core to an “all-in” mentality focused on providing Mitchell with a roster capable of winning immediately.
3. The Trade Is Viewed as a Precursor to Another Major Move
The discussion repeatedly highlights the belief that acquiring James Harden is not the final move but rather a setup for acquiring another superstar. The most prominent speculation involves a trade for Giannis Antetokounmpo, with Evan Mobley serving as the primary asset going to the Milwaukee Bucks. The speakers posit that Mobley’s potential could be alluring enough for the Bucks to bypass a full rebuild. An alternative long-term plan involves allowing Harden to leave in free agency, using the cleared salary cap space to pursue a reunion with LeBron James. These potential follow-up transactions are seen as necessary to elevate the team to true championship contender status.
4. The Deal Carries Significant Risks and Criticisms
Despite the potential upside, the speakers extensively debated the considerable risks associated with the trade. A primary concern is Harden’s well-documented history of playoff underperformance and his tendency to force trades after a brief “honeymoon period.” Critics in the discussion questioned the wisdom of trading a 26-year-old for a 36-year-old while also giving up a draft pick, arguing it significantly lowers the team’s long-term floor. Furthermore, integrating a high-usage player like Harden mid-season presents a major challenge. The consensus is that unless another major move follows, the trade only marginally improves the team’s ceiling while introducing substantial volatility.
5. The Move Signals a Cultural Shift and the End of an Era
The trade marks a definitive end to the post-LeBron rebuild that was built around Darius Garland, who was the team’s longest-tenured player and a foundational piece of its recent success. The speakers noted that his departure, along with other recent trades, has removed “soul” from the locker room and replaced it with the uncertainty of James Harden’s personality. This abrupt pivot from a “patience narrative” to a high-stakes, “win-now” approach suggests pressure from ownership and represents a significant gamble by the front office. Garland’s importance in bringing the franchise back to relevance is acknowledged as a critical part of the team’s recent history, making his departure a major turning point.
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Transcript
NOTE: This transcript was generated by artificial intelligence and could contain misspellings and errors.
Ethan Sands: What up Cavs Nation? I’m your host, Ethan Sands, and I’m back with another episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. And joining me today, Chris Fedor. Hasn’t been that long, Chris, of course, and Jimmy Watkins is back from the Browns beat. But we’re here to get initial reactions after the Cavaliers have traded Darius Garland to the Los Angeles Clippers for James Harden in a deal that also sent a second round pick to Los Angeles. That is the part that was most surprising from our recent conversation because previously Chris and I were discussing that the Cavs wanted compensation to acquire James Harden. What changed, Chris?
Chris Fedor: Don’t always get what you want in negotiations. I think that’s the thing that changed. You know, obviously the Cavs liked James Harden. They wanted James Harden. They thought he was a better fit and a better player than the one that they sent out in Darius Garland. So as much as maybe they were grasping for a little bit more from the Clippers, hoping that the Clippers would see their side of it, they didn’t ultimately get what they wanted.
Ethan Sands: And I think that’s an honest assessment. Right, because we keep talking about what Darius Garland wasn’t producing for this Cleveland Cavaliers team. And Jimmy, you weren’t on with us earlier, so I need to get your initial reaction to this trade. Do you think the Cavs got enough back? Do you think James Harden is going to help them elevate the to get past the Eastern Conference semifinals and make a conference finals run? Or do you think there’s still a move that needs to be made by this organization to get past that and get to the mentality of not just finals or bust, but championship or bust.
Jimmy Watkins: To me, there’s really only two ways this, two ways this trade makes sense to me as currently constructed. And that is one, if Darius Garland’s medicals are worse than we know right now, which is possible, and two, if there’s another move coming down the pike. Because as things stand, I understand you have to appease Donovan Mitchell and convince him you’re ready to contend. By the way, you’ve known that for quite some time now and this week would be a really strange time to start moving with urgency. But I, I will put a pin in that. I’m just saying, to go from a 26 year old all star to a 36 year old all Star, I know that’s an oversimplification of the matter here. Darius Garland is an injured 26 year old all Star. James Harden is one of the greatest players of our generation, an all NBA player, a former mvp. It’s been a minute since he’s been in that conversation, but he’s still quite a good, I think he was all NBA third team last year and he’s still an engine of good offense and he’s been for a guy his age and frankly for a guy who has lived the lifestyle that he has lived, been pretty fricking durable over the course of his career. So I understand the interest in James Harden in a vacuum. That being said, when you trade a 26 year old all star, you get a 36 year old all Star, I expect you to be getting draft capital again. Unless there’s something more going on with Darius Garland’s feet, slash, toes slash, whatever. And or the Cavs have something else cooking here. Like if this move is going to lead to something else, then I’m reserving judgment as is. I’m very confused.
Chris Fedor: So I have a question for you. Did they trade a 26 year old all Star? Is Darius playing like an All Star?
Jimmy Watkins: Not right? No, not. Not as we most recently saw him know.
Chris Fedor: Right. So I, I think the Cavs were looking at the situation, saying that there are two guys on this roster that are essentially bombing our net rating. DeAndre Hunter and Darius Garland. Both of them are no longer here. They were statistically a better team this year with this version of the Cavs. With Darius on the bench, I just don’t think you can ignore that fact. And yes, he’s been an All Star in the past and yes, he’s had really, really good seasons in the past, but he wasn’t that this year. And their clock is ticking this year. And this is a finals or bust proposition for the Cavs and they knew that coming in. And there were tons of expectations, there was tons of scrutiny, there was tons of pressure and they had an underachieving player on a bulky salary and they had an opportunity to go out and get a player, albeit 10 years older, who is outperforming Darius. James Harden is not a net negative for the Clippers this year. He is a net positive for the Clippers. So this version of James Harden toward the end of his career has outplayed this version of Darius Garland this year. And from that standpoint, I think you can tell yourself that he gives us a better chance to win. He’s a better passer, he’s a better defender, he’s bigger in size. And that’s, that’s not to say he’s Marcus Smart or Dyson Daniels or Jalen Suggs or an elite defender, but he’s better than Darius Darius Garland is an 8th percentile defender in the NBA. James Harden’s like 37th. That’s a drastic difference. And then you talk about his size, you talk about his basketball maturity, you talk about his veteran, know how you talk about his experience. And I can understand how a front office arrives at a conclusion that, that this trade makes them better and gives them a better chance of getting out of the Eastern Conference than what they already had on the roster.
Jimmy Watkins: Better chance of getting out the East. I think their championship needle is essentially in the same place. I also would, I would push back a little bit on that. Like okay, so the Cavs decided the roster that we have. They basically decided this time last week the roster that we have right now is not good enough to get where we want to go, not good enough to win the east or win the championship or whatever. And then they decided this same roster with Keon Ellis, Dennis Schroeder and James Harden who by the way, that is a like incorporating James Harden into your offense on the fly. That’s a lot for sure. He is quite the high usage player. Like he’s used to having basically the entire James Harden is the system. Right? That’s what James Harden says. And Donovan Mitchell, I mean I assume that the Cavs don’t blink at this trade deadline without Donovan Mitchell approving anything, so he must be open to this. But this is going to be a tricky to do this on the fly. As a matter of fact as the Cavs are playing pretty decent basketball right now, obviously they should be making, they should not be adjusting their plans in any way based on one 10 game regular season span as we compare it to four years of regular season data. I get that. But this particular player to integrate into your ecosystem is a challenge. And again the long term future of this. Do I, do I have a wink, wink deal with James Harden for an extension? I would assume the answer is yes if they plan on keeping James Harden or. And the other question in there is do I want that? Do I want to pay James Harden two years, what, what have you million going into his age, 37 and, and 38 seasons. My answer personally is I don’t think so. Again, there are other but again there are other factors at play here. This, this move also opens financial flexibility for the summer. If they don’t want to retain James Harden, that could open the door for LeBron. There’s a lot of moving pieces here and I think that the Cavs are making these moves with those moving pieces in mind. They have to be because again the one for one. And you’re throwing a second round pick in there. That, that says to me that you’re just getting out of the Darius Garland business, that you think the Darius Garland business is bad business, and then you did it at the wrong time. First of all, did they.
Chris Fedor: Why. Why did they do it at the wrong time?
Jimmy Watkins: You should have done it earlier. You should have done it earlier.
Chris Fedor: Why? Like, what would they have gotten that was better than James Harden? James Harden’s an 11 time all star. James Harden is playing like an all Star this year.
Jimmy Watkins: The James Harden playoff history is what it is. And his playoff numbers have been falling off harder as he ages than the regular season numbers have. There’s been more of a market decline in that regard. Now, he’s been the second banana on the more teams in recent years in the playoffs, I’ll give you that. But like, I’m sorry if you’re, if you’re. I put this in subtext earlier today. If you’re concerned about Darius Garlands, like, I’m not sure this guy is super reliable in the playoffs, and it’s bigger than that. But if that’s your main concern and then your answer is, I know who I’ll get. James Harden. I don’t really know that you solved your problem.
Chris Fedor: I guess we’ll see. This is a different situation. This is a different set of teammates that he’s around. This is a different coach. But when we were having hypothetical Darius Garland conversations in the off season, last off season, the off season before that, it feels like for the last couple of years, did we come up with a better solution? Like a deal that would be easier for the Cavs to say yes to for Darius? Because it was never a situation where the Cavs were saying to themselves, no, we’re not listening. We’re not listening on any member of the core four. We’re not considering any member of the core four. It was, is there a package out there that we would be willing to say yes to? Is there a player out there that we could get for one of these guys that we could sit here and say, makes us better, improves the roster, allows us to potentially take the next step as an organization? I liked the hypothetical deal that, that I put out there last off season of, of Jalen Suggs and Jonathan Isaac or Jalen Suggs and Tristan Da Silva, but that’s not James Harden. You know what I mean? Like, we’re talking about a dude who has a history of raising a team’s offensive ceiling, supercharging an offense The Cavs, they haven’t been the same offense this year that they were last year. And I think that’s the other key point of this whole thing, is that if the Cavs were rolling and they were clearly the best team in the Eastern Conference, I think you could look at this deal and you could say, I don’t know, they’re breaking up something really special. Or if we looked at this roster and we said, yes, they can clearly win the Eastern Conference as currently constructed. But what have we been talking about for the last couple of months? This is a deeply flawed roster that probably has limitations that are going to get exposed when you get into the playoffs, right? Isn’t that what we’ve been saying about these guys? So that’s what they’re breaking up here. This isn’t a rolling 64 win offensive force juggernaut from last year that obviously bombed out in the playoffs. But before all that, like, that’s who they were. And people were like, oh, my God, this is special. They’re setting records. This is one of the best seasons in franchise history. Like, that’s not this team. They’re 30 and 21. Yeah, they’ve won eight of the last 10, but they’re 30 and 21. They’re barely in the top 10 of offense. They’re outside the top 10 of defense. And yes, there’s nuance. And yes, there are plenty of circumstances tied to that, but they aren’t breaking up the dynastic Golden State warriors here. They aren’t breaking up the Boston Celtics here. This is a team that we have all pointed to the flaws of. We have all been very, very critical of. This is a team that for the majority of the season has been the most underachieving team in the entire NBA.
Ethan Sands: You talk about the nuance there, Chris, and I think it’s important. Not only the Darius Garland situation, but James Harden. There had to have been a level of belief from him that this Cavs team was either going to be moving in a certain direction that would get them to the NBA Finals, or he was capable of pushing that to where they wanted to go because he not only was under contract and obviously he has the player option and all these things, but he’s also coming from his hometown of Los Angeles, a place where he loved play. He had significant value in the organization. Just last week talking about how blessed he was to be in the situation he was. Now you’re coming to Cleveland. Now there’s an expectation of winning. Now there’s this. And Jimmy, I know you’ve written about this, you’ve talked about this and you posted this on subtext. But the reality of James Harden trying to get where he wants to go but also having the postseason failures, does that necessarily put them in the place where they still feel like there’s something missing? Chris, do you still feel like this Cavs team needs a as currently constructed, a bigger wing, a small forward or someone else on the wing, a power forward, maybe a Giannis? Could this still be in the conversation or do you think that this team now is currently constructed can get to where they want to go?
Chris Fedor: Aspirationally, I think they’re better equipped when they get into a seven game playoff environment against whoever it may be. I think they have fewer flaws that can be exposed by another team. I think they have fewer glaring weaknesses. 3 times in NBA history 3 the course of NBA history has a team won a championship with with a backcourt of of six, three and under. Like there are limitations. And Jimmy, how much have you wrote that for our website?
Jimmy Watkins: You know I love basketball for tall people. Basketball for tall people.
Chris Fedor: There are physical limitations and complications that the Cavs were always going to have as a defensive team, especially in a seven game series while playing Darius Garland 30 to 35 minutes alongside Donovan Mitchell. Like we know that we talked about that over and over and over again. So I do think they are better equipped if this all comes together. I like Dennis Schroeder in a backup playmaker role. I like Keon Ellis from a Cavs perspective in terms of his toughness, his grit, his tenacity, his point of attack defense, his catch and shoot threes, his ability to play off the ball and be the recipient of Donovan Mitchell or James Harden passes. Is it the perfect roster? No. Is it Oklahoma City? No. But I think something that the president of basketball operations Kobe Altman said recently was really, really interesting and important.
Jimmy Watkins: Look at the East.
Chris Fedor: You don’t have to go through Giannis to win a championship. You don’t have to go through Giannis to win in Eastern Conference crown. You don’t have to. You probably don’t have to go through Jason Tatum and and what the Boston Celtics were. Now Boston made a really good move with Vucovic. It’s smart for them in the situation that they’re in, but they’re not the same looming threat that they were the last couple of years. You don’t have to go through last year’s playoff boogie ban in Indiana Pacers.
Jimmy Watkins: You know what I mean?
Chris Fedor: So like the Detroit Pistons are flawed. The New York Knicks are flawed. Although New York is playing really, really well right now, but they’re flawed. Orlando hasn’t gotten it together the way that so many people expected. Toronto, you’re going to buy Toronto is the favorite in the Eastern Conference. So it might be like small margins that the Cavs improve their chances of getting out of the Eastern Conference. But I think, think I don’t want to come across as harsh. But, but I, I think they eliminated two problems that they had on their roster. Two guys that were hurting them drastically in, in Darius Garland and, and, and DeAndre Hunter. And now maybe, possibly they can have what is a better fit. Maybe, possibly they can have what is a more diverse offensive attack. Maybe, possibly they can do some things defensively that they just weren’t able to do because Harden size provides more options. Right? You don’t have to hide a small backcourt, unlike bigger players or something along those lines. All the different stylistic complications that the Cavs ran into, especially on the defensive end of the floor, those just don’t exist to the same level. Um, so I do think that they, and, and this doesn’t mean that Harden’s a perfect player. Um, and, and this doesn’t mean that he doesn’t have his own flaws, but I think they gave themselves a better chance in a playoff environment than, than where they were headed this year.
Jimmy Watkins: Did they not also lower their floor by a significant margin? The though, because it may be possibly a lot of things, but what history tells us happens every single place James Harden goes is that there’s a nice little honeymoon period. It’s like, wow, James Harden, this incredible all NBA creator, offensive engine, what a guy. And then it’s time to talk extension and it’s getting harder to talk extension with this dude all the time because he’s just getting older and then he’s like, oh, you won’t extend me. I’m leaving now. And even if, again, I can see, even if, even if he leaves at the end of the season, it’s not necessarily a total loss because then you can use that money on other things to potentially upgrade your one other person.
Chris Fedor: Who happened to be born in Akron, Ohio.
Jimmy Watkins: Fantastic. Fantastic. Now you have a two year plan where your co. Your co superstar, one is 36, the other is 42. And then what happens?
Chris Fedor: But, but that’s the thing. Like the status quo has changed. Evan Mobley did not make the leap that the Cavs thought he was going to make. Right. We talked about that and I think there are legitimate questions about his level of readiness and there are legitimate Questions about Darius Garland’s level of readiness. This is no longer Evan Mobley’s timeline. This is Donovan Mitchell’s timeline. Donovan Mitchell is ready to compete for a championship. Donovan Mitchell is under contract for only one more guaranteed season. And if you’re going to win a championship in the post LeBron era, it’s not going to be with Evan Mobley. It’s not like that’s how the Cavs are looking at it, because he didn’t take the leap that they were expecting him to take. Had he done that, maybe this is a different conversation. Had Darius Garland played to a higher level this year, maybe this is a different conversation, but the Cavs reevaluated. Reevaluated everything honestly and said, we have to do things more on the Donovan Mitchell timeline. And that’s what they’re doing. And I know that that compromises the future and it sacrifices some things for the future, but your chance of winning a championship is. Is with Donovan and. And it’s right now. And maybe you don’t win a championship because Oklahoma City exists, because the Denver Nuggets are really, really good, because maybe Minnesota adds something next to Anthony Edwards. Could be Yonts. Um, but like you’re trying to give yourself the best possible shot with. With this version of Donovan Mitchell and, and that, to me, that has changed since the beginning of the season.
Ethan Sands: So let me answer my own question. Let me answer my own question. I asked to Chris saying, do you think this gets them to the NBA Finals just with acquiring James Harden? I don’t think that gets them to the NBA final. Do I think it is him to the Eastern Conference Finals? Yes, I do. But I also see the positives of what James Harden can do, depending on who’s still on the roster. Right. If Evan Mobley stays, you have a lob threat. You have Sam Merrill as a shooter, you have Donovan Mitchell, who’s going to take up space, have gravity. There’s a lot of different pieces that can go right in that situation. But then you talk about the viability of their defense or which, obviously, as Chris mentioned, if James Harden is bigger, stronger, more ready, even if it’s only 27 or 21 percentile higher than what Darius Garland was giving you, it still is an improvement. And the other portion of this is how the Cavs are going to look to maybe make another move. Right. We keep kind of tiptoeing around this Giannis thing, and me and Chris had talked about it earlier today about the Los Angeles Clippers potentially giving a pick that would help the Cavs then use that pick to go get Giannis. That didn’t happen. So is there a through line? Is there still a possibility that this Cavs team pursues Giannis or is that now off the board? Because to me they have a pick and we’re kind of seeing them put all their chips to the front of the table. But if they were to do this, that would be like we’re all in two year period. Donovan, Giannis, James Harden. That is a roster that gets to the NBA Finals. This one I don’t think is currently constructed still to be able to compete with teams like OKC and Denver, as we mentioned.
Chris Fedor: Well, that doesn’t feel like a trade or a conversation where, where the ball is in the Cavs court. That to me feels like a conversation where the ball is in Milwaukee’s court. No, with Jimmy Aslam anything is possible. That much we know. But like Milwaukee could say no, offer’s not good enough. We’re going to wait, we’re going to hold on to him and we’re going to revisit conversations in the off season. Come back to us in the off season. Maybe more teams are more willing to give up more stuff in the off season. Maybe around draft time there’s more of a deadline, something along those lines. So like in the Cavs position right now, I think if they were motivated enough, they have the player piece that would be the best one going back to the Bucks. Okay, just like we talked about for, for the Cavs, in the situation of Darius, in a one for one swap, could they have done better than James Harden? The answer is probably no. Like I don’t think so. Not in a one for one swap. If this was a one for one swap between Cleveland and Milwaukee, I don’t think there’s another team in the NBA that that could match Evan Mobley. I don’t. Reigning defensive player of the year, still in his early 20s. Another team could look at him and say a bunch of circumstances were tied to the fact that he didn’t have the breakthrough that so many people expected. Already has all NBA on his resume. Already has runner up rookie of the year. Who offers something that’s better than that? Maybe Atlanta with Jalen Johnson, but I don’t think Atlanta wants to do it. Maybe San Antonio with Stefan Castle. I don’t think San Antonio wants to do it. So find me another potential one for one that would be more alluring to the Bucks that than Evan Mobley for Giannis. Now it’s not a one for one thing. Okay, Milwaukee’s saying, that’s great. Thanks for Evan, but we need more. Give us more draft capital. And if you don’t have it yourself, go out and find it from another team, make other moves that will get you that draft capital so that you can package it all together. And then the Cavs would be like, all right, cool. But like, if we’re going to get all that draft capital, you’re not getting Evan, you’re getting Jared Allen instead. And then both teams are like, all right, this probably isn’t going to work. You don’t have exactly what we want, and you don’t have exactly what we want. So we’re just going to revisit these conversations in the office season. There is a strong likelihood or a possibility that Milwaukee just says none of these offers are good enough for Giannis. Like, we want the Godfather offer, we want the sun, we want the moon, we want the stars. And we’re not getting that right now at the trade deadline. So come talk to us in the off season. So I think that one’s a little bit more complicated just because it felt like this one between the Cavs and the Clippers was more straightforward and the potential one between the Cavs and the Bucks is a little bit more complicated. But as I have been saying for a while now that if the Cavs were motivated enough, Evan Mobley is a very alluring piece for a team like the Milwaukee Bucks. That’s a good starting point.
Jimmy Watkins: First of all, I just want to say that since being traded from the Oklahoma City Thunder, James Harden has 16 games, 16 playoff games with 15 or fewer points. I just, I that that part of this cannot be overlooked. This dude has one of the most decorated, choking track records in NBA playoff history among Super Bowls.
Chris Fedor: How’s Darius been in the playoffs during his career? Really bad.
Jimmy Watkins: Really bad.
Ethan Sands: Really hurt.
Jimmy Watkins: I get it. I get it. But how so you can trade Evan.
Chris Fedor: Mobley for James Harden?
Jimmy Watkins: You aged Your, your, your third best player by 10 years and got no draft capital in doing so. I just want to point that out. We’re talking about Yaskov.
Chris Fedor: They were being outscored by 3 points per 100 possessions with Darius Garland on the floor. They were guarding like the Brooklyn Nets with Darius Garland on the floor. That can’t be ignored.
Jimmy Watkins: All this is true. Again, I. It sounds to me like the Cavs are realizing that the, the Darius Garland stock is, I mean, has been going down and they’re not quite sure it’s going to go back up. So this is the best they think they can do for the asset.
Chris Fedor: I also think they really like the idea of an 11 time All Star who is playing at a very, very high level.
Jimmy Watkins: What makes this trade open? If they make the finals and get absolutely gobsmacked, I think that’s a wing. That’s a win. Yes, man.
Chris Fedor: You don’t think so?
Ethan Sands: It can’t be because you don’t know if James Harden’s gonna stay.
Chris Fedor: Well, if he doesn’t stay, then he gets replaced with a guy who was born in Akron, Ohio. But you use that money, that salary cap flexibility to bring back LeBron.
Jimmy Watkins: He better not retire.
Chris Fedor: He’s not retiring. Savannah. Savannah was not at the game in Cleveland. You think LeBron’s last game in Cleveland, his wife would be somewhere else? Like. No, I don’t think so. I’m not saying I know exactly what LeBron is going to be, but I think there are enough signs say that he’s going to continue playing.
Jimmy Watkins: I think LeBron wants a retirement tour, of course, but I’m just saying that can’t be considered an impossibility. Knock on wood. No one wants to see this. LeBron could get hurt is the other. I’m just saying, ah, if it’s not.
Chris Fedor: LeBron, you use that freed up cap space and that flexibility, that newfound flexibility to get somebody else here.
Ethan Sands: The point I wanted to make because Jimmy was talking about James Harden being 36 years old. LeBron’s 41 years old. Yes, he still is a great player. Yes, the Cavs have needed a true small forward for years now. We’ve made all these points, but he’ll be 41, turning 42 on a tour, trying to soak in all of the moments possible. Obviously you can want LeBron. I think it would be better if James Harden was still here, if Giannis was here and seeing how that works out for this roster. Because there’s so many question marks and I don’t think if the Cavs get to the Finals and get smacked that that would be a successful end story for this decision. Especially when you talk about the future of the organization and knowing that James Harden has the player option. Darius Garland was under contract for at least two more years. All these other things had to be taken into account going in. And that’s why we continue to come back to this conversation of what we said, that this has to be an NBA Finals run and they have to do the best that they can or find or compile the roster the best that they can to compete with the Western Conference. It’s no longer about The Eastern Conference. As much as we’ve talked about the Knicks and the Detroit Pistons and the Boston Celtics and all these teams that could be potential threats to the Cleveland Cavaliers before this trade, the reality is there are still teams that look at this move in the Western Conference and go, okay, Shane Gilly is Alexander Ludor, Nikola Jokic. There’s levels to this, and we continue to say this. There’s level to the level of success that the Cavs are trying to get to. And nobody on this roster outside of Dennis Schroeder has won a championship of any kind.
Jimmy Watkins: Forget that. Do you think Jaylen Brown is looking at 36 year old James Harden and quaking? He’s not.
Chris Fedor: Do you know what he was doing when he was looking at Darius Garland? He was salivating.
Jimmy Watkins: He was looking to shop. But I’m just saying if you’re going to do something like this that can short circuit your timeline here. And we’re on Donovan’s timeline now. I understand that, but even James Harden is five years too old for Donovan’s timeline. Then I would, I would like to see your championship ceiling increased dramatically. Your conference winning ceiling has increased dramatically. I don’t think your championship ceiling has increased dramatic to the Giannis point. Yes, go. Do Giannis do it. Evan Mobley. Fine. I’ve been saying this since the summer. Giannis is one of the best players of all time. If you have an opportunity to get that guy, I honestly don’t care what it costs. And by the way, if you trade for Giannis, totally on board with James Harden. Let’s go Big three. Like all this falls into place and makes sense to me now. I will say though, James Harden in particular would be an interesting player to pair with Mr. Giannis onto Takupo, given that they have a semi public like sparring of orders a couple of years ago when they were both up for the MVP and James Harden accused Giannis of just like running around and dunking and not having skill and what have you. I’m sure in the pursuit of championships, things, things of such trivial nature can get smoothed over. But that is another wrinkle in all of this that I, that I have questions about.
Chris Fedor: I would say this too. I understand your skepticism against the Thunder. I don’t think there was a move out there short of acquiring Giannis that was going to elevate the Cavs championship ceiling.
Ethan Sands: I agree with that. I’m not, I’m not disagreeing with that. What I’m saying is the conversation was that they had two years to do this Donovan Mitchell, one more guaranteed year under contract. Even if they go get Giannis one more guaranteed year under contract before those conversations would have to rear their head.
Jimmy Watkins: You ain’t trading Evan Moby for Giannis without doing a handshake deal with Giannis. Continued.
Ethan Sands: Fair, fair. But the other portion of that is, other than Donovan Mitchell also having a handshake deal, what is keeping Giannis in Cleveland? If that were to be the case, if we’re talking about championship floor, championship ceiling, all these things. Darius Garland was 26. There was a Runway, there was a chance to build around him, if he would have developed, if he would have taken the next step. All these questions still unanswered. All the injuries are still true. Evan Mobley hasn’t taken the leap yet either. Right. But there was trajectory, possibility. Now you’re saying two year window, and then we have to decide what happens with the franchise for the rest of it. And I think that’s difficult to say.
Chris Fedor: Here’s the variable that I don’t think can be ignored. Okay. And this is why I say getting to the NBA Finals would be success. Donovan Mitchell has never gotten past the second round. The conversations between this front office and Donovan Mitchell begin this summer about an extension. If they are coming off a Finals run, you think Donovan’s going to look elsewhere? His goal is to win a championship. And if you’re coming off a Finals run, that strengthens your case dramatically.
Jimmy Watkins: He’s not going to look around if they get swept in the Finals?
Chris Fedor: No.
Jimmy Watkins: Hypothetically, of course.
Ethan Sands: Okay.
Chris Fedor: Where would he go? Is he going to Oklahoma City? If they get to the NBA Finals, they get swept by Oklahoma City. Is he going to Oklahoma City? But he’d start looking. Where? He’d look at the Lakers, he’d look at the Heat, he’d look at the Knicks.
Jimmy Watkins: Houston.
Chris Fedor: Well, does Houston have the money? I don’t know.
Jimmy Watkins: Donovan Mitchell comes knocking, everybody has the money. You’d be amazed what kind of money you can find.
Chris Fedor: Houston won’t even give up on their guys for Giannis. I don’t know. Like, I wouldn’t say that. It’s a guarantee. The point is, does he see any of those other places better giving him a chance to win a championship that the Cavs can’t after? The Cavs hypothetically, just went on a Finals run.
Jimmy Watkins: I think if his teammate’s real old, it’s possible. Like what? Depends why they lose. Like, what if James Harden pulls a hammy in the playoffs and now we’re having a Darius Garland conversation? Repackaged As a James Harden conversation. Right. Like that’s possible. That has literally happened.
Chris Fedor: But there is no Darius conversation because everybody inside this organization looked around and said he’s not ready, he’s not a playoff performer. I mean, you don’t want to put it that bluntly. But. But there is no belief there. There isn’t the same level of belief in Darius that there once was. That has become clear. And there isn’t the same level of belief inside the organization that exists in Cleveland when it comes to Darius Garland. That has also been clear. They understand that he has been a net negative this year. They understand that he has been a negative defender for the duration of his career.
Jimmy Watkins: All I meant to say was like if James Harden pulls his hamstring in the conference finals or something and they lose and they. Once again we’re having this. Did the Cavs underperform or did they.
Ethan Sands: Just get bit by injuries?
Jimmy Watkins: And it’s like, I don’t know. It’s not super difficult for me to unders like to envision the headline 36 Year Old man pulls hamstring. Like we’re writing those every day out here in the real world.
Ethan Sands: Yeah. And obviously there’s the conversations of how they’re going to go about acquiring players. But I want to first get into the specifics of the contract situation for James Harden this season. He’s getting $39.2 million. His player option is for $42.3 million with 13.3 millions guaranteed. And then obviously Darius Garland, including this season, 39.5 million, $42.2 million and $44.9 million. But when we talk about the potential for Giannis Antetokounmpo, me and Chris kind of detailed it earlier today about what might have been necessary, the track record for the Cavs to go and get him. But three teams have 13 first in the next seven years if they wanted to try and poach some picks.
Chris Fedor: Yeah, that’s right. Cause Giannis isn’t going to Memphis.
Ethan Sands: Nope. The teams can do it from Memphis, OKC unlikely and Brooklyn. And we already talked about Brooklyn being a pathway in a three team deal. They would also give up a player who is on like a minimum contract. But it would have to require like a 20, 31 first, some pick swaps. And especially after the Jaren Jackson Jr. Trade where they got a haul of picks for him and players. I think the Milwaukee Bucks raised their asking price. And that is part of the reason why the Cavs were so set originally on trying to get a pick for themselves because they knew they had to raise their price to match what the Milwaukee Bucks were asking for. Do you think the Cavs can get Brooklyn in some capacity to fork over some picks or some players that would be interesting for other teams? Maybe it’s a 14 deal now to make this happen.
Chris Fedor: They’re just running out of trade assets at this point. I mean, I think there’s only so much that you can do. They sacrificed a ton of their trade assets and a bunch of their draft capital when they traded for Donovan in 2022. And they knew that they made a mistake in trading one of their first round picks for DeAndre Hunter. That did not work out according to plan. They recognized that mistake, they tried to fix it, and they traded him to Sacramento in a three team deal. But that one’s painful because of what it ultimately cost them in terms of that draft compensation. They have one first round pick that they can trade. They have two pick swaps. But you know, that gets really, really tricky too. And they have two second round picks. So if you’re talking about those kinds of alluring assets. No, like, I think the thing that they would have to hope is that if they really had an interest in Giannis, they would have to hope that the Bucks view Evan Mobley as, as such a foundation piece, such a centerpiece of a trade that that kind of allows them to overlook the fact that they’re not getting all of this draft capital. Like, how many first round picks is Evan Mobley worth? Is he worth two? Is he worth one? Is he worth three? I, I don’t know. But the Lakers and the Mavericks, they did a Luca deal and like the draft compensation wasn’t as important because the Mavericks made a bad decision, but because the Mavericks ultimately looked at Anthony Davis as such a foundation piece of that trade that that allowed them to overlook the fact that they weren’t getting draft capital. Like, if you look at the, the trade between the Grizzlies and the Utah Jazz, there was no signature player that Memphis got. So because they weren’t getting a signature player in that deal unless you really really like Taylor Hendricks or you really, really like Walter Clayton Jr. Or you really, really like George Nian, that allowed Memphis to say, well, look, I mean, we’re not getting any signature player, but we’re getting three first round picks, so that makes up for it. Can Milwaukee look at it from the opposite point of view and say, look, Evan Mobley is so promising. Evan Mobley is so exciting. And I’m not saying that the Cavs have discussed Evan with the Bucks or. Or the Cavs will discuss Evan with the Bucks, but hypothetically, would they look at him as such a significant piece that the draft capital is something that they’re willing to ignore? I don’t know.
Jimmy Watkins: They should discuss Evan Mobley with the Bucks. And if you’re the Bucks, here’s. Here’s the pitch. Jimmy Haslam, I know I saw you earlier today, but I’m here to tell you about.
Chris Fedor: Hi Jimmy.
Jimmy Watkins: Just me and you, Jimmy. Jim to gym, heart to heart. Here we have this guy, Evan Mobley, and I know you’re. You got your hands busy with the Browns today, but do you really want to be double tanking with your two franchises? You want to be in the quarterback wilderness with the Browns and then you’re the guy who traded for Deshaun Watson and traded away Giannis. That sounds terrible. Why don’t I give you this young, promising, still developing star big man who’s been playing with high usage guards his entire career. We’ve never really seen what Evan Moby looks like uncapped with when everything runs through him and he just has this Runway to figure it out. And he’s also never been on a losing team. So if the Bucks want to skip the tanking step, and by the way, they might be incentivized to do so since they have checks, notes like none of their picks, then that could be an intriguing way to frame the Giannis conversation.
Chris Fedor: Can I get Shadur in the. In the draft? Can I get him. Can we cross sports?
Jimmy Watkins: Jordan Love. He’s throw. Throw me. Jordan Love.
Chris Fedor: Can I give Evan Mobley a fully guaranteed deal like I gave to Deshawn Watson?
Jimmy Watkins: I would also say for the Brooklyn Nets, they’re hunting for draft pick worthy trade pieces from the Cavs. The Cavs did just acquire an 11 time all star former MVP. Could I interest you in an old friend, James Harden, who once lit your entire franchise on fire? Brooklyn Nets.
Chris Fedor: No, the Cavs like James Harden does Kenny, though. Much to the chagrin of Cavs nation, the Cavs were actually really interested in James Harden and think he’s going to supercharge their offense.
Ethan Sands: That can be true, but again, this is the same James Harden that was on the Brooklyn Nets team that Kenny Atkinson was first getting his feet wet.
Jimmy Watkins: He had already aggressively forced a trade by the time.
Chris Fedor: That’s right.
Jimmy Watkins: They fired Kenny. Come on now.
Chris Fedor: That’s right.
Ethan Sands: Fair enough.
Jimmy Watkins: But I’m just saying Kenny’s gotta be drinking right now.
Ethan Sands: Last crazy hypothetical that I’m gonna throw out at you guys because, Chris, you brought him to my attention. And ESPN’s Brian Windhurst has mentioned that the Cavs also could have reached out to Dallas about Anthony Davis. If the Cavs can’t get Giannis, is Anthony Davis in the mix? Should they do that? What’s going on?
Jimmy Watkins: I’m just processing. I’m not shaking my head, no. I’m just shaking my head like, wow, that could really happen.
Chris Fedor: I don’t think they’re in any position to turn their back on a bonafide star player that has, like, maturity, playoff level readiness. But that one’s a little complicated because he’s not healthy right now. Don’t know if he’s going to be healthy for the remainder of this season. And I don’t think he’s not. Giannis, right? Giannis is one of the three most impactful players in the NBA. So that’s like a whole conversation all to itself. I don’t think Anthony Davis is. Is worth Evan Mobley. And in the sacrifice of what the Cavs would be giving up. No, I, I find that one hard to believe. I. I think that was more. I think that was more before they traded for James Harden. And I think. I don’t think the Cavs would be willing to make an offer to Dallas for AD that they would say yes to.
Jimmy Watkins: So now I’m just Todd Monk and shooting from the hip here. Can they get. If they could get under the apron, is there a way to get it so they. It’s a Jared Allen centered package to meet AD’s salary number.
Chris Fedor: Sure. Is that intriguing enough for Dallas?
Jimmy Watkins: And Dallas has been shopping AD for fricking pennies.
Chris Fedor: Sure.
Ethan Sands: I think that would make sense. Jared Allen next to Cooper flag Derek Lively. This would be a different conversation probably for another day, but this, this is definitely something that the Cavs, I think, should look into if they’re unable to get Giannis, because again, still think they need another piece to help them get past the Eastern Conference Finals and get to the NBA Finals and truly be contenders. Because as we said on this podcast, all year, their window for contention has been shrinking. And their window to actually play to the caliber that they set expectations for themselves coming into this season has diminished greatly. Not because of anybody in particular, but because their play hasn’t matched those expectations. And that’s why we’ve held them accountable. Talking about things that they needed to do that they said they were going to. Them making these moves to get Keon Ellis, to get Dennis Schroeder. Leaders in locker rooms, gritty defensive guys, people who will hold the team and the coach accountable. Talked about them needing a voice. Dennis Schroeder has already admitted to wanting that role, trying to call out players to talk, mess with him and schedule. Sure, it feels like Colby Altman is trying to make moves that are in ordinance with each other and make sense as they continue to make these decisions. But they have just two days until the trade deadline. And then the real conversations happen in the off season because it starts with James Harden, starts with Donovan Mitchell and then Dean Wade. All right, Mayor of Dean Wade is back.
Chris Fedor: Don’t forget reagent.
Jimmy Watkins: Hey, Dallas Mavericks. Dallas Mavericks. You like Dean Wade’s expiring contract? Anthony Davis. Generational defenders. Two generational defenders being traded for each other. Now that’s a blockbuster trade right there.
Chris Fedor: I mean, I just think if, if you’re the most expensive roster in the NBA and you’re the only team in the second apron and you were staring at a pretty difficult salary cap situation moving forward forward, you can’t view your most likely outcome as Eastern Conference semifinals. And I think that’s what it was for the Cavs, right? Isn’t that what we’ve been talking about all season long? And I think for the Cavs to have enough honesty in their evaluation of who they are and make a difficult decision like that, I think they deserve credit for that because I don’t think every team in their situation would have done that because they have had success, a level of success, not the success that they ultimately wanted to have, but they’re headed for their fourth straight playoff appearance. It’s just when you get to the point that the Cavs are in, your most likely outcome can’t be something other than an NBA Finals. And even with Darius Garland getting healthy and Max Stru getting healthy and the addition of Dennis Schroeder and Keon Ellis, like that didn’t guarantee. Well, that didn’t increase their chances enough of getting out of the Easter Conference. And I think that’s. That’s the honest evaluation that they had of this roster. And I think that’s what they’re telling you today.
Jimmy Watkins: I don’t want this podcast to go for days. I mean, this conversation will go on for days, like between now and whenever the heck Kobe talks and whenever they introduce James Harden, like, there’s going to be layers to this. We haven’t even, like, mentioned that. We haven’t even had the, like, what Darius meant to this rebuild conversation. Yet another podcast entirely. That’s what I’m writing for the morning but like, it does smell. This is a tough note to end on, but it smells a little like Dan Gilbert in here because the patience narrative that was, that has been pushed for the last three and a half off seasons. Boy, that changed quickly, huh?
Chris Fedor: Well, yeah, the status quo changed. They gave the group a chance and they were like, all right, maybe there were some injury related things that played into the whole Indiana series loss. So let’s give this new group a chance. And then what happened? They’re fifth in the Eastern Conference. They have underachieved to this point.
Jimmy Watkins: I just think Kobe Altman’s going out on a huge limb right now and most GMs don’t do that of their own volition. I’m not saying that Dan Gilbert made this move. I’m just saying that he, Kobe could have had a conversation with Dan Gilbert. And we, I mean, we knew weeks ago that Dan Gilbert was unhappy with the way things were progressing. So maybe it didn’t even have to be a conversation. Maybe Kobe just knew, like, all right, this is getting a little dicey, so we need to start searching for a little bit of a bigger change here. And that’s how we landed on James Harden.
Ethan Sands: I think, Chris, to your point about giving credit, there’s two areas that I think the Cavs deserve most credit. It’s admitting fault and then actually doing something about it. Because as we mentioned, not a lot of GMs or presidential basketball operations or whoever would willingly admit that one, DeAndre Hunter was not the best idea and two, that four years of the same core four is too long to expect the same outcome at the end of the day and seeing that the Cavs are now making moves to get out of that predicament or whether or not they should have just ran it back with the rocker that they had last year with Ty Jerome and Isaac Okoro and now kind of replacing them with Mini Me’s Keon Ellison, Dennis Schroder, whatever you want to say. But being able to right a wrong, being able to admit that there was a mistake made, willing to put yourself out there and say that change is necessary is not necessarily something that everybody around the NBA executive boards would be willing to do. So that’s the area I want to give them credit. To be fair, we still have not seen a single game of how this is going to pan out. We do not know if James Harden, Donovan Mitchell, Evan Mobley and Jared Allen are going to work. We don’t know if Evan Mobley is.
Jimmy Watkins: Going to be here.
Ethan Sands: Don’t know if Jared Allen’s going to be here. But when it comes to where this roster is constructed today, and I did this earlier and I’m going to do it again, it is Tuesday, 10:30pm Eastern time. Things change at the drop of a hat. Last time I did it, Darius Garland, the longest tenured Cavalier, was traded two hours later.
Chris Fedor: Jimmy, you know what else changed to your point? Cause you were talking about, like, what has changed since the beginning of the season? There’s one other variable. James Harden asked to be traded. Well, however they phrased it, so they softened it as much as possible. But James Harden essentially asked to be traded and an opportunity to go out. And they might be wrong. We’ll see. But that opportunity presented itself in a real way. James Harden decided that he was having a really, really good year at the age of 36. He was still an offensive engineer. He was putting up all star numbers. He was a net positive. And all of that led to him being on a play in team for the Los Angeles Clippers. And he was like, I’m not doing all this for that. And he became available. So I don’t think we can overlook that if Trey Murphy was available for the New Orleans Pelicans, like, the Cavs would have been involved in those conversations for Darius Garland because Giannis is available currently. The Cavs are in those conversations for Giannis, like, if James Harden wouldn’t have been available if he didn’t quote, unquote, ask for the trade. I don’t know if there would have been like as much urgency. There would have been urgency for sure, but I don’t know if there would have been as much urgency right now. It had to be a player that the Cavs believed made them better. And again, they might be wrong on this, but it had to be a player that the Cavs believed made them better and allowed them to potentially take the next step as an organization. And I think the list of players that fit that and fit their timeline that they would have said yes to a Darius Garland trade. I think it’s a small list, but one of them was there and one of them was James Harden.
Jimmy Watkins: When Chris said that James Harden asked for a trade, I thought he had already asked for one from the Cavs. I was confused. I was just following my history books. History tends to repeat itself. James Harden gonna play tomorrow against the Clippers.
Ethan Sands: He’s listed as out.
Jimmy Watkins: In the words of Charles Barkley, he got traded. He healthy now.
Chris Fedor: He hasn’t improved the trade yet. In order for this deal to get completed, he has to Waive a significant portion of his trade kicker. That’s. That’s still to be determined.
Jimmy Watkins: Oh, boy.
Ethan Sands: It’s gonna be interesting tomorrow as the Cavs play against the Los Angeles Clippers in la. And obviously James Harden is out for personal reasons and Darius Garland is listed as out for a right great toe sprain. But Darius Garland is switching locker rooms allegedly tomorrow if the trade kicker is done right. And his physical for Darius Garland as well, maybe even James Harb. Who knows what’s going on with those two.
Chris Fedor: I think this is an interesting opportunity for Darius, by the way. I, I do. It’s. It’s kind of what he signed up for when he got that big contract from the Cavs. And a lot of the things that he thought he was going to get from the Cavs, you know, that, that he couldn’t because of Donovan Mitchell coming here in that trade. He’ll get those opportunities in, in Los Angeles. It can be his offense, it can be his team. He can be more of an offensive focal point than what he has been. He doesn’t have to share the floor with. With somebody else. That, that is ball dominant, high usage and creates some stylistic complications. So, so I, I think initially for Darius, it’s like I really wanted to see this through. I was the longest tenured cavalier. I was here in some really, really dark times for this organization and I helped bring them back to the light because he did. And he should look at it that way. He should be proud of what he was able to do while he was here in Cleveland because there was no guarantee that the Cavs were getting out of this dark rebuild in the post LeBron era. But he was a significant part of that. And I think there’s natural emotion that’s going to come with that ending. But at the same time, I do think LA gives him things that Cleveland couldn’t. Including Sunshine.
Jimmy Watkins: Yes. Boy, could we all use that right now. Here’s something that sounds dumb, but is true. The James Harden, Darius Garland trade is not possible without Darius Garland. And what I mean by that is Darius, like the Cavs would just not be. None of this would be possible. There would be no core for angst if it was. If they didn’t start with Darius Garland becoming an awesome player. If the Cavs don’t get Darius Garland, I don’t know, maybe their lottery luck goes another way. Maybe they aren’t picking third in the Evan Mobley draft. Maybe like they, they don’t feel as emboldened to go after Jared Allen. Although that was kind of Like a wait, Jared Allen’s available in this weird three team trades. Like yeah, let us get in on this. We like Jared Allen, but there’s a lot, so many. Certainly Donovan Mitchell isn’t here. Like Darius Garland is a really, really important player in this franchise’s recent history and I don’t think people are going to remember him as such. I mean pretty much no matter how the rest of his career goes, just because he’s at a point in his career where there’s most of his story is still yet to be written. But yeah, Darius also last year, like at exit interviews I asked Darius like what the, his Cleveland tenure meant to him and he was, he was a little bit more touchy feely about it than I antic. He started calling like the media family, which they. All right, you’re laying on a little thick now. But he, it clearly had, had settled into Cleveland in a way that felt like home. And that’s the human side of this. And it kind of sucks for Darius Garland.
Ethan Sands: To Chris’s point about the dark times of the franchise, Darius Garland also went through some of the darkest times of his NBA career life when he was here as well to match the personal portion that Jimmy was getting into. Like to be able to grow as not only a basketball player but as a human being with the support of the city, being a part of the core four seeing your face on billboards around town, seeing people wearing your jerseys, knowing that there are people on social media that would ride for you, all these different things, like I think it’s important. And while he was a great player, while he was a two time all Star, while he is a guy that Donovan Mitchell had to have grown man conversations with because he knew that he was important to not only his development but to the franchises. That this is an element that people are going to need to resurface to. When it comes to how the Cavs end up and we’re talking about it again the next two years, people are going to be looking at, hey, is Darius Garland still hurt? How’s he doing with Kawhi? What’s going on over there? And then also looking at their own situation and being like James Stardon still here is Giannis, here is AD here is Donovan Mitchell still here and what could have been. And that’s part of what I was saying earlier, how there was a trajectory to the future of the growth of the player. But there were always gonna be the vulnerabilities. There was always going to be the liabilities of who he was as a player and that’s ultimately what led to the Cavs, to the decision that they made.
Chris Fedor: I mean, I agree. I, I think when you’re in this kind of situation and you’re a franchise like you just look at opportunities and you say when our opportunity comes, like we have to be ready. And, and that’s not. Again, that’s not downplaying the importance of Darius Garland throughout this rebuild. You know, Colin Sexton was once a, an important player to the Cavs rebuild too. And guess what? They used him to get down to a Mitchell. So you know, it is, it is a business and in these franchises have to do what they think is best for them. And the Cavs have never had a clearer path to the NBA Finals than they do this year. And they probably won’t moving forward because Boston’s gonna get Jason Tatum back and they’re gonna put the Jays back together and it’s like that’s formidable. And then Indiana is gonna get Halliburton back and he might return to his pre injury form and they’re going to add another draft pick in the top 10 and then they become a boogeyman again. Giannis might be in Miami creating another roadblock. So Kobe Altman saying that the clear view that he had of the Eastern Conference landscape that loomed over this and I don’t think it was an easy decision for the Cavs, I don’t think it was a pain free decision for the Cavs. But I think they had to have as much as they could, an unemotional, clear eyed evaluation of this team. And I don’t think they’re wrong to say that they weren’t going to be good enough.
Jimmy Watkins: That being said, boy, this locker room has lost some soul, huh?
Chris Fedor: Yes.
Jimmy Watkins: Darius Isaac, Koro, George Niang, Karis Lavert, all in the last year, man. Ty Jerome.
Chris Fedor: Yeah.
Jimmy Watkins: Who Cruel. Like real cruel. Time for Ty Jerome to come back and have a nice game for, for the Grizzlies. For Cavs fans, like Caps fans are trying to process a lot right now. Can you. Tight drum. Can you just stop being a bucket for five seconds? All right. Like God, goodness and by the way. And now you’re losing soul in your locker room. You’re putting James Harden in your locker room. Ah, that’s, that’s a lot for me to consider. I think Kenny Atkinson just poured another shot. Last thing. This is way out of left field. I’m reading a report that the Bucks. This is Mark Stein. The Bucks believe if they get lucky in the lottery, Giannis could stay. Guys Give it up. Please stop. You’ve had your time with this generational basketball player. He wants to leave. Let him go. If you love him, let him go. Stop being clingy. This is a real bad look. You can rebuild your franchise. This nice, nice, shiny Evan Mobley probably won’t ever be honest, but he can take you places. That’s not a bad consolation prize given you think the Cavs waited to trade a Darius Garland. Like you guys have wasted years that you could have spent trying to restart this whole thing. Could have had a, could have had quite the pick if you somehow figured out a way to get your Giannis trade off in a way that lined up with this draft where there are potentially three future all Stars out there. So just Milwaukee, please. And also the mix saying that they think they’re good. Their team is. They’re not going to go after you like, hello, wake up, please.
Chris Fedor: It’s Giannis.
Jimmy Watkins: It’s freaking Giannis. You guys like might actually. I don’t know who you’re giving up, but there’s basically no one on your team that I would value more than Giannis. I know they wouldn’t trade Jalen BRUNSON because he’s Mr. New York, but like, you guys could, might actually be able to win a championship if you do this. You’re cool, really.
Ethan Sands: We’re a long way from Kumbaya Kenny island, huh?
Jimmy Watkins: We’ll send Kenny a bottle of wine. James Harden should send Kenny a bottle of win.
Chris Fedor: Do you think Jimmy Haslam thinks Shador Sanders is in the draft?
Ethan Sands: Oh, my God. Okay, okay, okay. We’re getting, we’re getting off kilter. We’re getting off kilter. The last thing I was going to say is we’re a long way from Kumbaya Kenny island, where having dogs defensive mentality, a gritty mindset, winning ugly, not necessarily winning pretty, and having the free flowing basketball that the Cavs became accustomed to and had their entire identity based on camaraderie and chemistry last year. And now we’re talking about the joy in the locker room kind of leaving with Darius Garland slightly and the vibes potentially being off. This is a lot on Jaylon Tyson. This is a lot on Jalen Tyson in his second year. And we’ve talked on this podcast before about taking a bet on Sam Merrill. Letting Ty Jerome walk was a bet on Sam Merrill. Now it’s looking even more like a bet on Jaylon Tyson because of how he’s developed, how he’s, he’s evolved. Darius Garland was the joy of the team. Jaylon Tyson learned how to have fun and also turn it on, be a monster, be a villain on the court when necessary. That was because he was around Darius Garland all the time. He needs that both ends of that part of his game. The other night when he was smiling, when he was running back on defense with Jared Allen, after He got his 44 need, all of that. But there is also going to be a series seriousness in the locker room that I think we haven’t prepared ourselves for yet and I’m interested to see because we know Lonzo Ball’s still going to have his Jimmy Watkinsfter wins and all that, but after losses, I’m very curious to see how this Cavs team reacts and how they communicate with us, the media, but with each other and especially the coaching staff as well.
Chris Fedor: I think Kenny said the other night, guys, he said acquiring Keon Ellis and Dennis Schroeder is a vote of confidence for Craig Porter Jr. Naquan Tomlin, Jaylon Tyson. The evolution of Sam Merrill into the player that, that he has become. DeAndre Hunter was supposed to be a big piece of this championship puzzle. And we talked about all the different reasons why it didn’t work out and we talked about the Cavs being willing to admit a mistake and his net rating was terrible and his defensive numbers were wretched. But, but they also had to have somebody in House that was ready to take over some of that responsibility, some of those minutes that, that DeAndre was occupying. It’s a vote of confidence for Dean Wade too, by the way, and what he has meant to the starting lineup since he was moved into the starting lineup. So you know, if Jalen Tyson doesn’t emerge to be the guy that he has been, if, if Naquan Tomlin doesn’t look like a guy who’s worthy of a standard NBA contract as opposed to a two way. If, if Sam Merrill doesn’t have a breakthrough season and take advantage of, of this bigger opportunity and show that he can have an expanded role on a team with, with championship aspirations, then maybe the Cavs are a little bit more hesitant with, with some of these types of moves. Maybe they see more of a need for, for DeAndre and, and look at DeAndre as, as less expendable than, than what he was. Maybe if they don’t get Dennis Schroeder, maybe they don’t get James Harden in this particular deal and it’s like a different kind of deal that the Cavs were considering. Maybe they would have felt like Darius was quote unquote, less expendable. So I do think that going back to the DeAndre Hunter trade, where it all started, the first domino to fall in the dismantling of the Core four, I do think the evolution of Jaylon Tyson kind of changed the Cavs outlook both in the short and long term.
Ethan Sands: All right, guys, again, I appreciate you hopping on. I know nobody expected this to be an hour long, but for everybody tuning in, everybody listening and watching, thank you for sticking around with us. But with all that being said, that’ll wrap up today’s episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast where Remember to become a Cavs insider and interact with Chris, me and Jimmy by subscribing to Subtext. This is where you can send in your weekly hey Chris questions, or we can continue to talk to you about everything going on ahead of the trade deadline, but also things around the NDA and how things are falling, especially in the Eastern Conference. But you can only get this daily conversation by subscribing to Subtext. So sign up for a 14 day free trial or visit cleveland.com cav then click on the blue bar at the top of the page. If you don’t like it, that’s fine. All you have to do is text the word style. It’s easy, but we can tell you that the people who sign up stick around because this is the best way to get insider coverage on the Cavs from me, Chris and Jimmy. This isn’t just our podcast, it’s your podcast. And the only way to have your voice heard is through subtext. Y’ all be safe. We out.