CLEVELAND, Ohio — In this episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast, Ethan Sands, Chris Fedor and Jimmy Watkins break down every angle of the Cavs’ deadline decisions.
Takeaways:
1. The Cavaliers Acquired James Harden in a Divisive Blockbuster Trade
The centerpiece of the Cavaliers’ trade deadline was acquiring future Hall of Famer James Harden in a deal that sent Darius Garland away. Chris Fedor praised the move as a significant win, arguing Harden brings more size, creativity, offense, and playoff readiness, making him a substantial upgrade over Garland in every aspect. Conversely, Jimmy Watkins expressed skepticism, grading the trade a B- and citing concerns over Harden’s age, potential for decline, and questionable playoff history. Watkins warned that the trade creates a very small window for integration and demands immediate, championship-level success to be considered a victory, highlighting the high-risk, high-reward nature of the decision.
2. Strategic Salary Dumping and Roster Optimization
Beyond the headline trade, the Cavaliers’ front office executed several moves to enhance financial flexibility and optimize the roster. The team shed approximately $100 million in salary by trading players on underperforming contracts, most notably dumping Lonzo Ball’s salary by attaching their final two available second-round picks through 2033. This strategy reflects a “fail quickly” philosophy, allowing the organization to correct perceived mistakes from the previous offseason. A direct benefit of these moves was freeing up a roster spot, which president of basketball operations Koby Altman confirmed will be used to convert two-way player Nae’Qwan Tomlin to a standard NBA contract.
3. The Emergence of Jaylon Tyson as a Future Cornerstone
A significant development highlighted was the meteoric rise of rookie Jaylon Tyson. Koby Altman publicly called Tyson a “revelation” and stated he should be included in conversations about the team’s future alongside Evan Mobley. This high praise underscores Tyson’s impact as one of the league’s best 3-point shooters and a consistent offensive threat. His inexpensive, team-friendly rookie contract is viewed as a massive organizational asset in the NBA’s new financial landscape, providing crucial roster-building flexibility. Tyson’s emergence was so vital that it enabled the team to make other trades and has positioned him as a core piece for the future.
4. Navigating Max Strus’s Injury with Newfound Wing Depth
The podcast addressed the uncertainty surrounding Max Strus’ recovery from a foot injury, with the front office offering no clear timeline for his return. The hosts noted that the team proactively built insurance for this situation, as the emergence of Jaylon Tyson and Sam Merrill, along with the acquisition of Keon Ellis, has bolstered the team’s wing depth, even if they may be undersized. While Strus’s unique versatility as a shooter, passer, and rebounder is difficult to replace, the additional players make the team more resilient. A remaining vulnerability, however, is the lack of a primary defender for large, elite wings, a crucial role that falls heavily on Dean Wade.
5. Immense Playoff Pressure Will Dictate the Team’s Future
The speakers agreed that every decision made at the deadline was aimed at improving the team’s chances of making a deep championship run. The aggressive moves signal that the front office is fully committed to winning now and that the team’s performance in the upcoming playoffs will be the ultimate measure of success. A disappointing postseason outcome could trigger another round of significant roster changes in the offseason. The pressure to win is also tied to retaining star Donovan Mitchell, with the implication that continued progress is necessary to secure his long-term commitment and justify the high-stakes moves.
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Transcript
NOTE: This transcript was generated by artificial intelligence and could contain misspellings and errors.
Ethan Sands: What up Cavs Nation? I’m your host, Ethan Sands, and I’m back with another episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. Joining me Today, Chris Fedor, cleveland.com Cavs beat reporter, and Jimmy Watkins, cleveland.com columnist and guys, we made it through another trade deadline and here’s a couple of overarching views of the Cleveland Cavaliers decision. They remain a second apron team after the deadline. They’re around $4 million over currently, but we’ll get into why that number will increase over the next couple of weeks. But the first question in order of business for you guys, do you classify this as a win for the Cleveland Cavaliers? As they made adjustments at the trade deadline, the bottom three net rating players are now all no longer on this roster. What does that do for this team? How can we see this team going forward? And do you classify it as a win, as a plus? And if you could give me a grade, I would be ever more grateful.
Chris Fedor: Hey, they were one of the biggest winners of the trade deadline of any team across the NBA. They made an honest assessment of their roster. They substantially improved it. Adding James Harden, future Hall of Famer, gives them more size, more creativity, more offense, better passing, more readiness when it comes to playoff level basketball. And you mentioned it, they removed their three least effective players from the roster. The guys who were underperforming or playing poorly or being net negatives when they took the floor are all gone off the roster and they don’t have to allocate minutes to any of those guys and have those guys tank some of their lineups. And while they did all of that, they also shed about a hundred million dollars in salary while keeping three members of their previous core four while keeping their first round pick, the one they can actually trade and getting a little bit more financial flexibility and optionality going into the off season. Like if they would have stayed really, really deep into the second apron, then going into the off season you’re like, oh my gosh, we’ve got a lot of work to do. We’ve got a lot of moves that we have to make just to get under that second apron. Now there’s just a couple of things that the Cavs have to do. None of them really all that painful. And then they don’t have to worry about that. So I think they went into this, this trade deadline with a plan. They obviously first and foremost wanted to improve the roster. They wanted to give themselves a better chance of chasing a championship and they did that with all of their moves. Dennis Schroeder is going to help them in a significant way. Keon Ellis is going to help them in a significant way. And James Harden, as we talked about on the previous podcast, to me, is a better option than Darius Garland in every avenue imaginable. There is not a thing that Darius Garland does at this stage of his career that is better than James Harden being on this roster. And that doesn’t mean that James is going to be great in the playoffs. It doesn’t mean that he’s going to be an MVP candidate by the end of this year. It doesn’t mean that this is going to be a seamless transition with him coming to this roster. But given what they gave up and what they got back in return, that to me is substantial improvement in terms of emotional maturity, in terms of basketball maturity, in terms of playoff level readiness. And everything for this team is about springtime basketball. And I think they’re better equipped today to go on a run, a deep run, than they were a week and a half ago.
Jimmy Watkins: I’m more B minus, C plus range. I like the Dennis Schroeder Keon Ellis trade, saving money on DeAndre Hunter getting two useful rotation players. Some nice little needles to thread right there. We have not seen Keon Ellis play significant stage basketball in his career, so it’s kind of juries out on that one. I suspect he’s the type of player that translates over well to the playoffs just given his pesky nature and attitude, the way he, that archetype of player, you know, what stir, let’s call it with a, with a jumper that has, you know, been pretty consistent at the NBA level. I suspect it, but I always need to see it first. Dennis Schroeder, is he the most efficient player ever? No. But he also, I mean like his European track record is very impressive. So those, I mean you saw last night. Even just to have a heartbeat at backup point guard, a pulse makes an enormous difference. And that’s. That’s Alonzo Ball Comments, not a Craig Porter Jr. Comment. Craig Porter Jr. Has, has performed admirably in the minutes that he has been given. Dennis Schroeder is a step up from him and he’s, he separates himself from Lonzo and Craig in that time. Dennis Schroeder can get a step on almost anybody in the NBA early part of the season. Remember Kenny was saying we’re not creating enough advantages. Watch Dennis Schroeder play. He creates advantages. He gets by guys. He’s quick. He’s got some stop-start to him. He’s got a nice crossover. All that stuff. So that part’s great I continue to think that we’re looking too far back with the James Harden trade and not looking enough forward. Yes, he’s an 11 time All Star. Yes, he’s one of the 75 greatest players of all time. Yes, Kobe Cited almost won 180, 170 something playoff games that he’s been. You know what that means? That means he’s old and he’s done a lot of great things in this league. I. The more you do in this league, the less that I think you can do going forward in this league. That’s how age works. James Harden was one of the most durable players in the NBA that has already slipped a little bit. First 10 years of James Harden’s career, he played in 93% of the possible games that he could play in. It is 70% over the 75% over the last five seasons. 75% still really good. 75% still really durable. The last two years he’s played 70 plus games. But he did get hurt during that Brooklyn series pull his hamstring a couple years ago. He did play, I think it was 50 something games that season, which was a 72 game season. It’s a different thing. People don’t get more durable as they get older. That’s been my whole point about that. People don’t get better as they get older. And the exit ramp with that one is a little bit murky to me. Like it’s. For the James Harden thing to work, you have to punch two rungs higher than you have ever punched. You have to at least make the finals. I would say for it to be considered a real success, you have to win championship. But you have to do that and you don’t. You have a very specific small window period of time to do it. And I think that like people are also look like I get it that you’re gonna like. James Harden’s awesome. Donovan Mitchell’s awesome. Everyone’s got a IQ because Kenny said Stars tend to figure it out with each other, but James Harden is a very specific player. Kobe Altman said today that we’re gonna have to adjust to James when asked the question about pace. The Cavs like to play fast. James Harden doesn’t play very fast. And there’s just not a lot of time to integrate this thing and you have to have immediate results. These are my concerns.
Chris Fedor: But here’s the thing. You’re talking about James from the past and, and you’re right. Like there is an element of that and for me, I’d be more concerned from a Cavs perspective if there was a significant drop off in his level of play and there just hasn’t been. He could have been an All Star this year. He probably should have been an All Star this year. He’s in the 98th percentile in offensive estimated plus minus. He’s 13th in offensive win shares, he’s 18th in player efficiency rating and he’s 20th in value over replacement players. And in nearly 1600 minutes with him on the floor, the Clippers before he got traded had an offensive rating of 118.9, which is basically playing like the New York Knicks, one of the best offenses in the NBA. With him off the floor, the Clippers would have been the worst offense in the entire NBA. I understand what you’re saying about him getting older, but you’re not seeing a drop off from his play. And this year he played in 44 of a possible 47 games before the two rest games where it was obvious that the Clippers were looking at the possibility of trading him away. And I think the other thing that when you evaluate this trade and you evaluate the trade deadline, you always have to look at it through the lens of what did the Cavs give up in order to get this done. So if you’re going to talk about the durability of James Harden, Darius Garland can’t play right now. He isn’t playing right now. He’s played 26 games all year. The most that he’s ever played in his Entire career is 70 in the regular season. And how many times have they gone to the postseason where Darius just wasn’t healthy or he was less than 100% or he was battling through something and they had to make this excuse of, well, we weren’t healthy, we didn’t have our guys, Darius wasn’t right, Darius wasn’t himself. So I just think like, of all the things that you can say about James and there are legitimate flaws to his game, no player is perfect, none. And no trade is perfect. But for all the flaws that you can say about James at this stage of his career, there is nothing that you can say that you wouldn’t also attach to Darius Garland. You can talk about the playoff performance of James Harden and sometimes he comes up short. Have you looked at what Darius did in elimination games? Do you remember Darius Garland against the Boston Celtics? Do you remember Tyler Herro and Bam Adebayo blatantly saying that our offensive adjustment is to attack him relentlessly? And then you can talk about if you want to the durability. But like, that doesn’t hold up either. So to me, if, if the Cavs were losing something significant, something that was helping them at the beginning of the season, something that was irreplaceable for them, then maybe I’d be on the same page as you, Jimmy. But that’s not what they gave up. In order to get James Harden, they gave up a guy who was statistically their worst, least effective player in, in, in this season. And yeah, there are circumstances tied to that because he was dealing with a toe injury and then he was dealing with another toe injury and he didn’t have a preseason and he didn’t have a training camp and then the same thing. Even if, like Keon Ellis doesn’t become like a better souped up 3 and D version of Isaac Okoro with the actual 3 and not just the D, what’d you give up? You gave up a guy who clearly didn’t fit and a guy who was basically torpedoing every single lineup he played and a guy who when he was out there on the floor, you’re like, can we get Dean Wade back there? Is Max Strust coming back at any point? So that’s the way that I’m viewing this. And if the, the Cavs would have had to give up like a future first round pick along with Darius Garland, or if it would have been Jared Allen instead of Darius Garland or it would have been Evan Mobley instead of Darius Garland, then okay. But to me, they gave up a guy who was not ready to help this team compete for a championship. And I think there are legitimate questions about if he’s ever going to be.
Jimmy Watkins: Well, James Harden’s never competed for a championship either, but he’s better.
Chris Fedor: You have a better shot with the better player.
Ethan Sands: The only thing I’m going to say is he was in the NBA Finals.
Jimmy Watkins: With the OKC Thunder as a sixth man, third best player on his own team. Yes, he was. He also is averaging less than 20 points per game over his last like four playoff runs. The guy that is now a top 15, 18, whatever player in all these advanced stats used to be a top five. Like there has been a drop off. There has certainly been a drop off. He’s not the same player that he was in his prime. He’s still very good, but I’m just not as moved by a 25 point per game regular season that that’s the whole thing. It’s a playoff conversation. I’ll just say Chris’s words back to him. Everything that you can say about Darius Garland you can say about James Harden. Or everything you can say about James Harden you can say about Darius Garland. Everything you can say about Darius Garland you can say about James Harden. So if you’re if you want to upgrade in a significant way. I know that was very confusing, huh? You could just say they have the same flaws is the point.
Chris Fedor: So if you want to upgrade in a significant way, one guy’s flaws are deeper than another guy’s and another guy’s 10 years older and still better and still more effective and still more impactful. So like, you can take your 10 years. I’ll take the better player. I’ll take the more ready player.
Ethan Sands: All right, let’s move on to the next order of business. All right? Because I don’t think that was the weirdest trade. It could have been the most impactful, but the weirdest trade that the Cavs made to me was dumping Lonzo Ball salary along with their final two second round picks through 2033. They do not have a second round pick through 2033 after making this move and they didn’t get anything back in return. So let’s dive into what this means for the Cavs financially, what this means for the Cavs as a team, and what this could mean for a player that is going to be elevated. So first and foremost, the CAVs are now $3.862 million above the second apron. Now the other portion about this is because they did not get under the second apron, their 2033 pick that they had is now frozen. First round pick frozen and they have to get under the second apron for three of the next four years or that 2033 pick becomes the last pick in the first round. The other portion of this, if we’re talking about picks, The Cavs have six first round picks over the next seven seasons. 2026 is the least favorable of Cleveland, San Antonio and Atlanta. After all pick swaps have been resolved. 2028 is the least favorable of Cleveland, Atlanta and Utah. 2030 can only be swapped, not outright moved due to the Stepien rule and the 2033 pick that we talked about has been frozen. So the reason that I thought this was interesting is because of what it means for the second apron and how Naquan Tomlin becomes a factor in these things. Kobe Altman, on his Zoom press conference after the deadline confirmed that the Cleveland Cavaliers plan to convert Naquan Tomlin’s two way contract to an NBA standard deal. If they convert Naquan Tomlin that amount will grow from about $700,000 because he would sign a prorated minimum deal. Here’s the details on those different things. Since the Cavs do not have access to any signing exceptions being in the second apron, the only contract the Cavs can sign Naquan Tomlin to is is a minimum contract which has a two year term limit. That’s right, the Cavs could elect to assign him to a two year deal or they could just bump him for the rest of the season. But with it being a prorated this year for a two year deal in the $700,000 range and the $2.1 million range next year, the benefit of that arrangement would be that the Cavs kit lower in the cap hit next year. And as the cap continues to rise and minimum salaries do as well, the minimum salary for a player of Naquan Tomlin’s level could be the $2.4 million range. So by locking in Naquan Tomlin early they could see a savings next year. And the other portion of this is that they don’t have the mid level exception to use. And the games that Naquan Tomlin has remaining on his two way clock is just four so so they’ll likely wait those four games and then make a move. But I think it’s important to note that the Lonzo Ball move was more than just his play, right? It was getting closer to the second apron. It was creating a spot for Nae Quantana who they see as someone who is more viable, more valuable in a playoff series. Also adding Dennis Schroeder to take over those backup point guard roles. Still having Craig Porter Jr. To help out in those areas as well. I think there’s just a lot of nuance to the conversation around Lonzo. Obviously more than the James Harden, Darius Garland 1 for 1 plus a second round pick. But all of these things needed to be taken into account. And I again I agree with Chris. The Cavs front office did this beautifully because they subtracted about $100 million basically handed it back to Dan Gilbert said we’re going to reevaluate where we can put this. Maybe it goes into the new training arena and all these different things, but I just think that the Lonzo Ball deal getting off of him because he was a net negative, getting off of him because he just wasn’t adding value but also getting more monetary value back. Although having to give up second round picks for the next seven years, I think it’s important to know.
Chris Fedor: Well I think it’s pretty Straightforward. I think the Cavs said, we’re going to remove a player who is not helping us and we’re going to get some salary cap flexibility, we’re going to lower our luxury tax bill and we’re going to free up a roster spot because we want to convert Naquan Tomlin. I think that’s pretty easy. And the reason that they had to attach two second round picks to it is because it’s bad money. Anytime you’re talking about bad money or perceived bad money or you’re trying to get some team to just occupy their cap space, you have to incentivize them in some cap. Like there’s. They’re not just going to do it for nothing. You know what I mean? Like, what can you give us so that we do you a favor? All right, second round pick. How about two second round face? And I think it was good from the Cavs, from a business perspective and from, you know, salary cap gymnastics perspective that they didn’t have to attach at first and they weren’t going to attach a first that was basically going to be a non starter. Like that is one of the few remaining assets that they actually still have. And they weren’t just going to use that to dump a bad contract or to correct a bad decision that they made this off season. So I give them credit for finding a team that was willing to take that kind of salary, but that was always the fallback option for them if they needed to create a roster spot. They always knew that there was a possibility that somebody was going to willingly take that contract provided the Cavs gave them enough incentive. And it’s kind of the same thing that, like, when you look at Sacramento, part of the reason why Sacramento was willing to give up Keon Ellis is because they didn’t want Dennis Schroeder. They looked at the signing that they made this off season and they’re like, oh, man, that was bad. What were we thinking there? That was an act of desperation. We got to dump this money. We got to reset our books. We’ve got to free up some salary cap space into the future so that we can go sign another bad player when that front office exists. That might be the. The end game. But the thinking was like, yeah, it stinks that we have to give up Keon Ellis, but if that’s the cost of getting off of Dennis Schroeder’s money for us in the situation that we’re in the worst team in the NBA, one of the worst teams in the NBA, then so be it. That’s what we have to do.
Jimmy Watkins: Yeah. In many ways, this was like the deadline of admitting mistakes.
Chris Fedor: Yeah, that’s exactly right.
Jimmy Watkins: Honestly, DeAndre Hunter as the cherry on top, I guess, to the core four last year, that’s. That’s what he was billed as. Didn’t work out. Get him out of here. Lonzo Ball as a playoff upgrade over Isaac Okoro. I believed in it. The jumper absolutely disappeared. I wonder if the knees are shot. I wonder, frankly, a little bit about Lonzo’s NBA future right now. He’s definitely a minimum guy at this point, and he doesn’t have a ton of chances left after this stint, but still rooting for that guy. He’s a fun basketball player at his peak. It just. We just didn’t see it this year. And then in a bigger picture way like that, Darius Garland is a success story for the Cavs from start to finish. A guy that you took a leap of faith on, who hadn’t played a ton of college basketball, who became a franchise point guard. And if you, when you get to a point like you guy, you draft a guy who makes two All Star games and you get to the point where you decide, yeah, we need to get off this guy to get where we want to go, I mean, that’s a really good problem to have. That’s a really, really good problem to have all of those things. What Kobe said today at the press conference was with. With the Cavs philosophy, if you’re going to fail, fail quickly and quit. That’s exactly what happened with Lonzo Ball. They gave it, you know, half the season. It didn’t work. See you later. DeAndre Hunter had two. Two ends of a half of a season. Right. Like the second half last year, which is still crazy to me. That’s the best he ever looked on with like zero practice in the first half this year after the off season, like, like we’ve been saying on the podcast, Kobe was like, yeah, just. Just didn’t end up fitting. So we tried to address that problem. And yeah, I. I guess the Dennis shooter, like, Dennis Shooter, positive asset. I don’t know on that. On that contract. He’s got another year after this year at like 14 million. You don’t love that, but could potentially help your bench in the playoffs. What was the other thing I was going to say? Oh, oh, on the Lonzo thing, another. I would argue that because. Because Ethan mentioned Naquan Tomlin. I would argue that Naquan Tomlin is like, what allows you to dump Lonzo like the philosophy, like the make Juan Tomlin experience or who else? Craig Porter Jr. Sam Merrill. Well, not Sam Merrill. Sam Merrill was technically drafted, but like, the Cavs have found a pipeline that works with the charge, right?
Chris Fedor: Dean Wade.
Jimmy Watkins: Dean Wade. There you go. And I think like second round picks are silly and overvalued in general by general managers. The NBA just loves having draft picks. Regardless of how high they are picked. They are, they’re going to fall, right. What Matters is your first round pick, like 1 to 15 for the most part. After that, it’s a lot of noise, I think. But the Cavs have been great at finding late round, slash undrafted guys. And when you do that, you can punt on more second round picks. I think that’s sensible.
Chris Fedor: Yeah. And I think the other thing to point out here is the Cavs being in the second apron. It’s just not a big deal at this point. The limitations that they were dealing with coming into the trade lead line, they. They were able to navigate those the best that they could. And when it got to a point that they were like really, really close, they had to ask themselves, well, what’s the benefit of getting out of the second apron at this point? We don’t need to aggregate any kind of salary because we’re done trading. We don’t need to be able to sign somebody who gets bought out that was making more than $14.1 million because we’re not signing anybody on the buyout market. We’re giving that open roster spot to Naquan Toma. Now maybe somebody becomes available, somebody gets bought out, and the Cavs reassess their roster and they say Larry Nance Jr. Or guy that got bought out. Thomas Bryant or guy that got bought out. But like when you already have a plan in place of how you’re going to fill that final roster spot, the Cavs didn’t need that restriction lifted. That comes with being a second apron team. So then you combine all of that with the fact of anybody else that they would have had to get rid of at that point was playable and was an asset and was a theoretical positive. So getting rid of one of those guys just to get under the second apron, that would have been more painful than trading DeAndre Hunter. That would have been more painful than trading Lonzo Ball. Now all of a sudden they would have had to say Craig Porter Jr. Tyrese Proctor. A combination of Larry Nance Jr. And somebody else. Thomas Bryant and somebody else. It’s just that when you start to look at it that way, your quote unquote expendable pieces were already dealt away. So you didn’t feel like, based on what you had with your roster composition, that anybody else was quote, unquote expendable. And you just don’t gain anything at this point right now, today by getting out of the second apron.
Ethan Sands: The Cavs believe that their rotation is strong, their depth is strong. It’s part of the, the backbone of this organization. There’s this roster construction, especially how it is now, and we talked about just the money aspect of it. When the Cavs convert Naquan Tomlin, there’ll be about $4.6 million over the second apron. So they, as Chris mentioned, you would have had to think of different players who would have been viable. And I think this is positive, kind of changing gears to what Kobe Altman was talking about in his press conference.
Jimmy Watkins: Can I say one thing real quick? It does, it does matter that they’re over the second apron right now, like at this point. Yes, because the draft pick, because they’re going to be over the second apron now for the season, they’ll be able.
Chris Fedor: To get out of the second apron and have that get unfrozen three of.
Ethan Sands: The next four years under the second apron.
Jimmy Watkins: They have to stay under the second apron. But this roster is going to get more expensive. It’s going to get harder to stay under the second apron. You don’t think so?
Chris Fedor: I don’t think so.
Ethan Sands: Are you talking about like because they were going to want to resign James Harden and resign Don?
Jimmy Watkins: I think the Harden extension would come in at a lower annual salary number. Just over longer.
Chris Fedor: Yeah, but Donovan’s is going to go up. Like I understand what you’re saying.
Jimmy Watkins: The raises is what I’m saying.
Chris Fedor: Yeah, yeah. But they could just move Max Strus.
Jimmy Watkins: That’s fair.
Chris Fedor: And I’m not saying that they want to and I’m not saying that they’re motivated to do that. Remember what they did here at the trade deadline, they said, okay, DeAndre Hunter, you’re making 23, 24 million dollars. You’re not playing to that number. So if they determine that Max Struse is not playing like a 16 million dollar player or whatever the case may be, then they’re just going to be like, all right, we’ll move on from you. And his contract will be a theoretical trade asset because it’ll be going into an expiring year.
Jimmy Watkins: That’s not bad.
Ethan Sands: Yeah. So that’s actually where I was going next because of the conversation. The question that I asked Kobe Altman during the post trade deadline press conference was about an update for Max Truths because the Cavs had said in a previous update that they were going to reevaluate him over the next four weeks. We are now past that point and have not heard anything about Max Strust or his progression or anything of that nature. Kobe Altman saying that he’s progressing but not willing to give a timeline is both concerning. But also they didn’t trade him because they feel like he could be a potential fit with the roster depending on how he comes back, how he’s playing, all these things. And that also goes to Chris’s point that if you do not perform to that level when you come back, if you do not fit with this roster, if Jaylon Tyson, that gets into what I’m going to say next. But because of how this roster is being constructed currently, Max Strutz is no longer a you have to have him in the starting lineup. It’s more so figuring out where he fits best, how he can dismantle defenses, is he still capable of doing all the cutting and off ball movement? We talked about this with Darius Garland, right? The toe injury was so significant because of how he plays, the foot injury, a Jones fracture. And I was talking to Jimmy about this before the podcast, how easily re aggravated that can be. And with Max Strus playstyle, the cutting, the movement, the sprint speed, we always talked about it when Max first got here and the beat test and running and all these things, right? And Max being in this category of wanting to do too much too soon sometimes. And also Kobe Altman saying the hardest thing for him is patience because there’s nobody trying harder to get back on the floor than Max Trooce. And we all know that because he’s a competitor. But the progress that he’s making, whether that’s significant or not, we have to wait and see what the production is going to be and that will ultimately make the decision for the Cavs and what they’re going to do this off season with the contract of Max Struz, but also with the roster around him. Because we’ve talked about the expiring contracts of Dean Wade, we’ve talked about the club options for Craig Porter Jr. And all these other things surrounding it, and whether or not those pieces are going to be more helpful in the future than having Max Strus. And again, to be as clear as possible, that can only be determined by how he plays when he comes back for sure.
Chris Fedor: And there’s no way that the Cavs can just like copy and paste and create another Max. So I think we all understand that there’s an element that he brings to this team, there’s an element that he brings to this offense, and the only guy who comes close to duplicating that is Sam Merrill. So it’s not like the Kai’s that the Cavs went out and traded for at this year’s deadline can do the Max type stuff, but you can fill the max type minutes. And I think that’s an important point. And you’ll have to go about it a different kind of way. Your play style will be different. The things that you ask of those guys to do, that’ll be different too. But the Cavs tried to protect themselves because they understood that they were losing DeAndre Hunter, but they also needed somebody that was protection for Max, insurance for Max. Jalen Tyson’s going to play big minutes in the playoffs. If he’s ready for those minutes, and it looks like he is, he has been one of their most impactful and effective players basically since opening night. They can’t keep him off the floor. They’re having a hard time keeping him off the floor because he’s been that good for them. So he’s gonna play big minutes. But then you start saying, well, even if we don’t have Max, Keon can take some of those. The new guy. Okay, even if we don’t have Max, Dean Wade can take some of those. Okay, even if we don’t have Max. What does it look like with Sam Merrill at the throw three, just in certain iterations against certain teams, in certain matchups. So Naquan can play some three, depending on the lineup construction, depending on what else is out there, it’s got to start making that three a little bit more consistently or just not take 10 of them. Nonetheless, like, that may be where the Cavs slot him into from a positional standpoint. So I don’t want to sit here and say that Max is not important or that the Cavs are covered from a skill set standpoint and what he brings to this team standpoint. But his position is more covered now because of the emergence of Jalen, because of the emergence of Naquan, because of them bringing in Keon Ellis, because Sam Merrill can play some three, because the Cavs want to run some three guard lineups too. I, I, I think they feel better about their situation related to Max. I think they feel better than they certainly did at the beginning of the season. Like when he fractured his foot in the off season. There was a sense from this organization of, oh, oh boy, we might be bleeped here. What are we going to do about this? Because they look pretty clear that they look at net rating and if there is a stat that they value greatly and they think it determines a lot of success or failure, it’s net rating. And Max, especially with the, the core four in the starting lineup, his net rating was pretty substantial. So at the time that the injury happened, before Jaylon Tyson became this, before Naquan Tomlin became this, before Sam Merrill showed that he was ready for an expanded role, there was a sense in this organization of oh my God, like what are we going to do? Um, and I just don’t, I don’t sense that same feeling. And, and that’s not Max related. I think it’s how they, how they boosted this roster over the last six months.
Jimmy Watkins: They did do a good job internally and externally filling that cover. Like Max, Sam Samuel is not. Doesn’t feel the same role the same way Max does. Samuel is a straight up better shooter than Max, though. That’s true. So Max uses a shooter too. Sam Rail has a bend on the defense that is rivaled by few on this team, frankly, if any. And Keon Ellis is great. I will say though that Max’s versatility is hard to. Obviously Max spiritually is impossible to replace, but Max’s versatility, like Max Street’s the guy in the playoffs, oh, I need to get nine rebounds. I’m getting nine rebounds. How am I going to do it? I’m just going to do it. I’m just going to figure it out.
Chris Fedor: I’m going to will my way to nine.
Jimmy Watkins: Exactly. He’s the definition of making it happen out there. I don’t think any of these guys are quite the passer that Max is. I think it’s been so long now, but him and Jared Allen had one of the best two man games going in the NBA last year. I think the Cavs severely missed that as like a secondary creation hub when they had the, the Garland injury at the early part of the season with the second unit. Right. And frankly the Cavs getting away from Max a little bit. They still have a, a positional size issue on, on the wing. I don’t think it’s like Jaylon Tyson’s not small per se, but like, I don’t know, Jaylen Brown for example, or a player of that ilk. If you get to the finals and we start talking about Jalen Williams from the Thunder, I don’t know who on this team guards him. I, I Don’t know the answer to that question.
Chris Fedor: Jimmy, to your point, just look at the Clippers game. What happened when Dean Wade went to the bench? Kawhi started cooking. Kev’s like, who are we gonna put on Kawhi, by the way?
Jimmy Watkins: The answer to the question is Dean Wade. Dean Wade just got massively more. So much more important to this team. I mean, he’s been playing great. I crossed my fingers that this is the time where Dean Wade sustains the role that he has carved out with himself. Like he’s. For the nth straight year in a row. Dean Wade is an advanced metrics darling and an incredible defensive player and indisposable to the Cavs. But like how long we’ve been saying this and then it ends up that Dean Wade suffers a weird knee injury and then it takes him a while to get his confidence back. And it’s like they are exposed at big wing defender in the playoffs right now for. For as well as they have filled in behind Max. That is still something. And I mean like in a pinch, you can put Evan Mobley on these guys. Evan Moby can guard. I’m pretty sure that Evan Moby. I’m confident that Evan Moby can guard like pretty much anybody in the NBA for a quarter. But you don’t want to have to go. Like that’s kind of like your backup plan right now. If Dean Wade, if Dean Wade gets hurt and you have to guard. I don’t, I don’t know whether he’s coming back or not. And we don’t know what Jason Tatum would look like if he did come back. But that archetype of player, big wing, who can handle the ball, do all that sort of stuff. I think Evan Mobley is your number two option. And I don’t love that. Yeah.
Ethan Sands: And that’s the biggest portion of this, right? Like we talk about the expiring contract of the Wade, but like he’s gotta stay healthy. Like he has to be healthy to be impactful. And the greatest ability is availability. We’ve talked about the Max truce portion of it, but it’s coupled with the fact that Sam Merrill has been kind of growing his role to play more like Max Strus, to have the ball on the floor a little bit more, to create a two man game, to have the pick and pop, pick and roll, to have the mini floater. All these things that we’re seeing more of Sam Merrill’s game come to light. And it looks more like when he was at Utah State. He looks more athletic. He looks like he’s comfortable with the ball in his hand. He’s reading the game better. He’s slowing it down using pump fakes, deciding whether to attack closeouts with the dribble drive or do a sidestep escape dribble to a three point shot. These are all the things that we’ve been seeing from Sam that we hadn’t seen earlier in his career. And then obviously the next portion being Jalen Tyson and taking on this role. And we’ve talked about the conversation that the Cavs are going to have to have when it comes to the playoffs. Even if Max Truce is available, whether or not Jaylon Tyson or Dean Wade is the best viable small forward to start it will depend on who they match up with in each round. And I think the adaptability and the versatility of both of them is great. But Dean Wade is definitely going to get those minutes. And if it’s against like Jimmy was mentioning the Boston Celtics, a bigger team that has ball handlers on the perimeter that need to have a little more stout 6 foot 10 rather than 6 foot 6. Right. But the other portion of this that I thought was interesting in conjunction with the trade deadline is we knew that the Cavs did not want to get off Jalen Tyson this trade deadline, last trade deadline or even like thinking about it. But Kobe Altman today was comparing the future of the organization and not only saying and confirming that Evan Mobley is still the future, but he also said, and I quote, Jaylon Tyson has been a revelation for us and so creating a pathway for him to be successful, minutes for him to be successful certainly went into that decision of trading DeAndre Hunter and we couldn’t be more excited about him. We talk about Evan Mobley as our future. We we really need to start adding Jalen Tyson into that conversation and I thought that was huge for Kobe Altman to just come out and say that on the record because Donovan Mitchell said it earlier this season. If Jalen Tyson continues to play at this caliber, this great level of play, he could be a $20 million a year player. But the Cavs need Jaylon Tyson to keep hooping how he is now to be a contender because of his skillset not only defensively but offensively being one of the best three point shooters in the entire NBA this season on par with Sam Merrow. As we’ve said on this podcast, at an abundance Jimmy said it today, Sam Merrow is without a doubt the best shooter on the team. Jaylon Tyson has a better 3 point percentage than Sam Merrow this year. And I think that can’t go unnoticed and unsaid because of how important he’s been in every aspect. The two man game with Donovan Mitchell, how he’s been able to learn and adapt to whatever the team needs. Going into California Jalen Tyson mode when he’s taking the ball, going downhill and creating with the floater that he’s been honing on all these different things, I think the development of this group and the player development that Kenny Atkinson’s been doing. Kobe Altman has had the sight to pick up these players as we talked about, but also the G League developing these guys. That’s what we knew of Kenny Atkinson when he came to Cleveland, that he was a player development coach. And I think for that to show itself goes unnoticed more often than not. But someone had to help them get there. Whether that’s Ken Y. Atkinson himself, the assistant coaches, all these things. And there’s so many things behind the scenes that don’t get mentioned as much or don’t get the same praise on a day to day basis or a game to game basis.
Chris Fedor: Beyond the skill set, beyond the versatility, beyond everything that you mentioned, the improved 3 point shooting is the fact that Jalen Tyson is on a rookie scale team friendly contract. And that’s one of the best things about him and that’s one of the best things that the Cavs have found this year. It changes the math, it changes the equation, it changes the dynamic, it changes the team building. In this apron era, it is very, very difficult to keep everybody. It is. You have to make very, very difficult, painful decisions, financially motivated decisions. But it’s very similar to life in the NFL. One of the most important assets that you can have from a team building perspective is a capitol, capable, competent quarterback on a team friendly rookie scale contract. Because once you start paying Jared Goff or Josh Allen or Joe Burrow like these big exorbitant contracts, then you have to start making these other painful decisions. Look at the Kansas City Chiefs and the way that they had to make moves around Patrick Mahomes because they gave him the biggest contract. Eventually that bill comes due. It’s the same thing in the NBA. Ask the Boston Celtics about it, ask the Denver Nuggets about it. So the fact that that Jaylen makes less than $4 million and he is a playable every night starter, quality wing on a team friendly, controllable contract, that’s big for this organization, that’s massive when it comes to some future decision making. Now all of a sudden they Might be able to say, you know what? Like, it is a pricey roster, but we can hang on to Jared Allen for one more year. It is a pricey roster, but we can bring back Dean Wade in free agency. Yeah, it’s a pricey roster. I know. But you know what? We can make it happen. Because of Naquan, because of Craig Porter Jr. Because of Jaylon Tyson, because we’re getting production every night, rotational production from these cheap contract guys that is so massive. And it’s such a win for this organization, and it’s such a win for this front office. And this front office doesn’t do everything right. They have made mistakes during this era. They will continue to make mistakes, but they are one of the best front offices in the NBA. And these are examples as to why I would even.
Jimmy Watkins: I’d take it a step further without Jaylon Tyson’s emergence. You can’t make this DeAndre Hunter trade that they just made to save all this money and add two rotation players and add a little tenacity to their basketball personality because you would just. You can’t rip that band aid because, well, if Jalen Tyson isn’t who he is, then who in the heck are you depending on for wing minutes in the playoffs, right? Like, it’s a massive mass. It’s the. It’s one of the hardest things to do is hit on late first round picks, and it’s one of the most important things to do when you’re in the position that the Cavs are in right now. I keep. I would. I. I’ve been comparing them to the Nuggets for a long time now because the Nuggets tried to get ahead of this. And look what’s starting to happen with the Nuggets now. By the way, Peyton Watson got. Is. Is hurt right now. I think they announced that today. Um, but he’s been a revelation. He’s an incredible defensive player. He’s. He’s starting to show some off the dribble creation. Starting to make his threes. Like, that’s a guy that people are asking right now. Like, this is the other end of the Jalen Tyson conversation. Like, are the Nuggets going to be able to keep Peyton Watson in restricted free agency because of everything that he’s showing right now. They just had a winning record for an extended stretch without Jokic. That is unheard of. It never happens with the Denver Nuggets, so. And Jaylon Tyson similarly. Well, this stretch before the Cavs traded Darius Garland and they. And Donovan Mitchell was. Donovan Mitchell and the Donnetts, essentially because Evan Mobley got hurt, too.
Chris Fedor: Who.
Jimmy Watkins: Who were they turning to for offense in the absence of Darius Crowd? Jaylon Tyson, one of the most consistent scorers on this team this year. Which seems crazy to say, if you told me that beginning of the season. But the future part, we love Jaylon Tyson. The Evan Mobley sized future part is all about how he plays defense against big playoff wings, in my opinion. Like, we were just talking about Paolo Panchero. Another example, Paolo and Franz. I don’t know if both of them are going to be on that team after this year, but one of them is, you’re going to have to deal with them. Cade Cunningham for the Detroit Pistons, probably the most prominent example for this season. He’s. He’s arguably been the best consistently healthy player in the east this year. Who guards that guy? Okay, if the answer can be Jaylon Tyson, you’ve really struck gold. If the answer isn’t Jaylon Tyson, then we’ll see how the Cavs feel about him when it’s time to have a contract extension conversation. But that’s super far off right now. I’m. I’m wondering, like, I had this thought while you were talking, Chris, Has Jaylon Tyson played himself into a potential Giannis trade package, not as the main piece, but like, if the Bucks say, you know what, we like what you have on the table right now, we like Evan Moby. But one more thing just to push it over the top, like Jalen Tyson could be the difference in whether the Bucks say yes to that deal. Which is crazy. Which is crazy. I actually can’t decide what’s crazier. If you told me in August that Jaylon Tyson is inarguably one of the Cavs most consistent players, most consistent scorers, and they’re shooting 40% for free, or if I told you that I would hold the opinion that Jaylon Tyson could swing a Giannis trade, I can’t decide which of those two things would be less probable.
Ethan Sands: To your point, Jimmy, and that’s kind of what I was mentioning about Colby Altman saying that one of those guys has to be the future Jaylon Tyson or Evan Mobley. One of those guys has to be this Cavs team’s future. I don’t know if the Cavs would do that, and I’m not trying to spur another Yannick conversation that can be for a different day, but I think the Cavs are kind of hinting at the fact that we talk about the Untouchables, right? And obviously It’s Giannis, so you have to think about it. But the Untouchables kind of grew from Donovan and Evan to this season being Donovan, Evan and Jaylon Tyson. And I think that’s not crazy to say because of what he’s meant to this run of this season and what he’ll mean to all the things that we’ve talked about if he’s able to continue this productivity when the playoffs hits. So that’s all to say, I think the Cavs will again and everybody who’s in their right mind will again come back to this Giannis conversation during the summertime. But I think it would be hard for the Cavs to part ways with both Jaylon Tyson and Evan Mobley in turn to get Giannis, depending on what his contract would look like and all those different things.
Chris Fedor: Well, here’s the thing. Underachievement, spurs activity, disappointment, spurs activity. And. And that’s what the Bucks are thinking. They didn’t love the packages that they were being offered. It’s Giannis, we don’t have to say anymore. And Miami was putting together this poo poo platter of Tyler Herro, Khalil Ware, some draft capital. Like the warriors were offering pods, first round cap, like what this is Giannis, get out of here with that. So the Bucks are thinking to themselves, someone’s going to flame out in the playoffs. Maybe it’s Cleveland. I don’t know. It could be anybody. Maybe it’s Minnesota. Maybe Minnesota just has a terrible playoff run where Ant is like, yo, stop holding on to Dante DiVincenzo. Stop holding on to Jaden McDaniel. This is Giannis. Guys, what. What are we doing here? And that’s what the Bucks are banking on. And it all depends from a Cavs perspective, what happens in the playoffs. Because what led them to the decision making at this year’s trade deadline, the freaking terrible start that they had where they’re just like, we’re not good. Like, we’ve got some underachieving dudes on this roster, we’ve got some guys that we’re paying big money to that we can’t play big minutes. Or if we do play them big minutes, our net writing goes straight down the toilet. So if the Cavs, if they lose in the second round of the playoffs, if they don’t get to the NBA Finals, you think they’re going to look at this thing and say, we’re good, we’re good, we’ll just run it back, let’s go now. I mean, they’re going to look at the marketplace and say, all right, what’s the next move? We’ve got to keep Donovan happy. We’ve got to show him that this is where he needs to be. We want to have productive extension talks with him, so we’ll see what happens in the playoffs. And I just think before, to your point, Jimmy, before we start labeling Jaylon Tyson these things, because, man, that, that, that has to be earned and that has to be earned over a long stretch. You know, Evan Mobley was runner up rookie of the year. Evan Mobley was, you know, this, this franchise face. A guy that the Cavs called the one. Like he did everything to earn that, that super max contract and, and made it so that the Cavs didn’t even have any kind of internal debate about it. But the resume, in a way supported that path forward. Um, Jaylon Tyson has been good. He has been a revelation. He should be in the conversation not as a front runner, but should be in the conversation for most improved. He is a rising star. But there needs to be a level of consistency and productivity in a playoff environment because for this team, that’s the only measure. For this team, that’s what went into Schroeder. That’s what went into Keone Ellis. That’s what went into James Harden. That’s what went into Wanzo Ball off this roster. That’s what went into Deandre Hunter off this roster. That’s what went into Darius Garland off this roster. This roster. Yes, the opportunity of James Harden presented itself. Kobe Altman and his crew decided they couldn’t pass it up. But everything that they do from a team building standpoint, from a decision making standpoint, is can we compete for a championship? How do we best compete for a championship? And the way that you identify those things is in the playoffs.
Jimmy Watkins: Yeah, yeah, everybody’s touchable in a Yanish trade. And frankly, if any of these teams were holding anything back in their offers at this deadline, they’re insane. Because this was the one opportunity where you had that leg up on. If, if another team is still like, okay, one more go in the playoffs, that’s an advantage for you other team who’s willing to put all your stuff on the table. So if the, if the. Like what if the Timberwolves held anything back, shame on you. You, you wasted an opportunity to pair two of the greatest players in the NBA together. And I don’t know that they did or did not, but they better not have, because that’s how you don’t get many opportunities like that. One more Quick thing on Giannis, the tweet that he posted today. Legends don’t chase, they attract. With the Wall Wolf of Wall street video about I’m not leaving. That’s one of the most embarrassing things I have ever seen an NBA player post on the Internet and we have seen, I won’t name names but you know who it is. We’ve seen NBA players post, let’s say some after hours activities on the Internet before shout out Jamal Murray. But Giannis. What Giannis is trying to spin right now. He’s the last embodiment of loyalty in the NBA. The, the Bucks didn’t trade me at the trade deadline because I’m going to work to attract other like please stop. Please stop. Nobody believes what you’re saying. It’s very thinly veiled PR spin and I have actually gained a ton of respect throughout this Giannis nonsense for the people like James Harden who are just like come out and say trade me,
Chris Fedor: I’m shutting it down.
Jimmy Watkins: I am a fan of direct communication. If you have a problem with me, tell me. I don’t. I might not agree with the root of your problem, but we can work it out. I could, we could have a front facing conversation about it. This passive aggressive BS that Giannis is trying and his team are trying to. How many beat writers is that Giannis going to get on the phone with saying that he wants to he oh I really want to win another championship in Milwaukee, but we’re just not that good right now. It’s like yeah bro, that’s what happens. It’s the life cycle of a championship team. Khris Middleton got old and hurt. You traded your holiday for Damian Lillard. That was ill advised. Damian Lillard got hurt. You got a little bit of bad luck. Time to go if you want. You’re either loyal or you want to win a championship. You can’t do both right now. You can’t do both right now. The Bucks. Unless the NBA pulls another Luca trade lottery ticket and they give the, they give the Mavericks like they gave the Mavericks Cooper flag. I’m not saying that really happened but like unless something that that like that happens and the Bucks win the lottery. And by the way, last I checked, Giannis did still want to come back and play this season and chase the 10th play in seed for no fricking reason whatsoever. So that’s going to make it harder. The Bucks are already, already saying that they want to shut them down. We’ll see how that goes. The NBA’s first fight over a player who wants to play. Stay tuned. This is the most ridiculous, ridiculous trade saga I’ve ever seen. And that tweet was embarrassing. Giannis, you should be embarrassed.
Chris Fedor: I feel so bad for him because he’s clearly at war with his own emotions, and he just doesn’t know what to do with it, and he just doesn’t understand. Yeah, I mean, I get it. You want to recruit these dudes, but there has to be a pathway to Milwaukee actually being able to bring them there. The big move that they did that their social media account posted was Ushman Jiang, like, welcome to Milwaukee,
Jimmy Watkins: Australian Giannis, you mean. Usman Jang.
Chris Fedor: And I’m just thinking, if I’m Giannis and I see that, I’m like, oh, man, I was supposed to get excited about Ryan Rollins. I was supposed to get excited about Kyle Kuzma. I was supposed to get excited about Myles Turner and Kevin Porter Jr. Because I have no other recourse. What am I supposed to do? So I just hope for Giannis’s sake, because he’s a great player, and I love seeing greatness on the biggest stage. Giannis in the playoffs, meaningful games. It’s awesome. What he did to lead Milwaukee to a championship and what he did in that series, awesome. You want that for one of the best players in the NBA, But I just hope somebody says, hey, man, like, there are rules in place that govern how we go about building this roster. And. And you may. You may have a lot of say, and some of these dudes may want to play with you, but, like, we don’t have a realistic pathway to bring those guys here to Milwaukee. So it’s a pipe dream for you. You recruit all you want to, but it’s gotta fit within the salary cap rules. And I don’t think too many people are like, hey, give me Kyle Kuzma. No. Or, hey, like, let me take on that salary of Miles Turner that you overpaid for because you acted out of desperation. So I agree with you, Jimmy. It’s. It’s a very sad situation. And. And their only way out. This is how you know it’s a bad situation for an organization. Their only realistic way out. And to actually turn this thing around is. Is. Is to trade Yannis when that is your best exit strategy. I mean, that sucks, first of all, but it also speaks to a level of incompetence throughout the last couple of years that you then have to pay for.
Jimmy Watkins: By the way, I. I also admire Giannis’s heart for wanting to stay in the place that he drafted. And, like, as Cavs fans I think people can relate to. Like, man, this guy’s standing up for big, for small markets. That’s so cool. When, like, when they. When the Bucks traded for Damian Lillard and the Cavs traded for Don Mitchell in, like, the same whatever year span, I feel like those were, like, cousins of the same move. Like, neither. Neither team was on the trade destination list. And the. These brazen front offices were like, you know what? No, we think we got this. We think we convince them to stay. And like, it worked out for the Cavs. It didn’t work out for the Bucks for variety of reasons. But, hey, here’s the thing, Giannis. When you win a championship, there’s a lot of wiggle room. You can be a little bit more forceful. Like, it might hurt in the moment to. For people to see to have you loafing on the court if you really want to trade or something like that. But, like, fans will get over it. You will still get your jersey retired. You will still be remembered as a loyal player. Like, it’s okay. Just, if you want to trade, request a trade with your chest out, man.
Ethan Sands: All right, well, another trade deadline has come and gone, and again, I appreciate you guys hopping on to discuss it all, but with all that being said, that’ll wrap up today’s episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. But remember to become a Cavs insider and interact with Chris, me and Jimmy by subscribing to Subtext. Sign up for 14 day free trial or visit cleveland.com Cavs and click on the blue bar at the top of the page. If you don’t like it, that’s fine. All you have to do is text the word stop. It’s easy, but we can tell you that the people who sign up stick around because this is the best way to get insider coverage on the Cavs from me, Chris, and Jimmy. This isn’t just our podcast. It’s your podcast. And the only way to have your voice heard is through some text. Y’ all be safe. We out.