CLEVELAND, Ohio — In this episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast, Ethan Sands and Jimmy Watkins react to Cleveland’s fourth straight win after the Cavs’ 119-117 victory over the Denver Nuggets. The guys break down what newly acquired guard James Harden is already changing.
Takeaways:
1. James Harden’s Clutch Performance Validates Trade
James Harden’s impact was immediately felt in the final moments of the 119-117 victory over the Nuggets. The guys highlighted his game-tying 3-pointer and, more importantly, his overall late-game “passing acumen” and ability to slow the game down for more methodical possessions. This was contrasted with former Cavalier Darius Garland, who the speakers noted sometimes felt the urge to “do too much” in similar high-pressure situations. Harden’s decision-making, whether it was taking a step-back three or running the offense to create a better shot for a teammate, showcased precisely why the front office pursued him. This performance provided an early demonstration of his value in closing out tight contests, an area the team sought to improve.
2. Harden Elevates the Second Unit and Unlocks Donovan Mitchell
A crucial benefit of Harden’s presence is his ability to lead the offense while star Donovan Mitchell rests. In a key fourth-quarter stretch, Mitchell subbed out with the Cavs down by eight; when he returned a few minutes later, the deficit was cut to five, as the Harden-led unit went plus-three. This ability to stabilize, and even gain ground, with the second unit was described as an option the team previously lacked. Physically, Harden’s superior size and strength compared to Darius Garland allow him to see over defenses, make passes from different angles, and absorb contact to get to the free-throw line—providing a more robust and reliable offensive engine when Mitchell is on the bench.
3. Jarrett Allen Is a Primary Beneficiary of Harden’s Playmaking
Center Jarrett Allen, who recorded his fourth consecutive double-double, is already reaping the benefits of playing with Harden. The hosts emphasized that Harden has a history of elevating his big men, citing Clint Capela in Houston and Joel Embiid in Philadelphia. The speakers believe that Harden, a superior pick-and-roll passer, will consistently keep Allen involved offensively. This engagement is seen as critical to preventing Allen from fading in difficult matchups, as he did against Nikola Jokic. By keeping him fed offensively, Harden ensures Allen remains a consistent force on both ends of the floor, unlocking a more dangerous and reliable version of the Cavaliers’ center.
4. Defensive Impact Is a Mix of Positives and Lingering Concerns
While not considered an elite defender, Harden made several game-changing defensive plays, including multiple blocks and forcing a crucial late-game turnover on Nikola Jokic. His size (6-foot-5) allows him to be a more effective help defender than Garland was. However, the hosts remain concerned about the team’s overall defense, particularly in transition, where Harden can be a liability. The discussion also highlighted a significant reliance on forward Dean Wade, whose latest injury is a major worry. The podcast stressed that despite Harden’s surprising contributions, the team’s defensive structure is vulnerable and “desperately needs” a healthy Dean Wade to fill key rotational minutes at the forward position.
5. Dual-Tempo Offense Creates New Strategic Advantages
The integration of Harden introduces a valuable “two-tempo” offensive style. The team can now operate at Donovan Mitchell’s frenetic, high-speed pace or shift to Harden’s more deliberate, methodical half-court attack. This versatility is viewed as a significant advantage, particularly for the playoffs, where the pace naturally slows. An example cited was Harden driving the lane, drawing the defense, and making a jump-pass to a wide-open Jaylon Tyson for a 3-pointer instead of forcing a contested layup. This ability to execute in different styles, even while Harden is still getting his conditioning back, gives the Cavaliers multiple ways to manipulate defenses and win games.
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Transcript
NOTE: This transcript was generated by artificial intelligence and could contain misspellings and errors.
Ethan Sands: What up Cavs Nation? I’m your host, Ethan Sands, and I’m back with another episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. And joining me today, none other columnist Jimmy Watkins. And we’re coming to you guys. After the Cavs fourth straight win in a row, 119-117 over the Denver Nuggets, it ends an excruciatingly long road trip. Five games out west as the Cavs had to handle. They went four and one on this trip. I think it was huge, particularly because of the trade deadline that they had to maneuver around and tonight’s game. If not satisfied from the game against Sacramento a couple of days ago, this showed why the Cavs went and got James Harden. It was not just because of the scoring late in game, which was phenomenal, but it was the passing acumen, the ability to read, the ability to slow the game down when it gets into those last couple of moments deciding whether to let Donovan Mitchell run or to take a step back three and drain it. And Jimmy, I think as far as we’ve talked about the Darius Garland stuff, the James Harden stuff, when it comes to that trade in particular, obviously Darius Garland brought a lot to this team, brought a lot to the city, but there were some instances where Darius Garland would feel the urge to try and do too much in those moments. I don’t think we felt that from James Harden, at least on my end. How did you feel about tonight’s game as a whole, but also the lasting moments from the end of the game and how this game came to a conclusion?
Speaker B: Yes, it’s the, the game tying three from James at the end there, but to me it’s, it’s more this game, the James Harden impact on this game is more the Donovan Mitchell substitution out of the game with like eight minutes or so left and the Cavs are down eight. That’s just not an option that Kenny Atkinson has had for a lot of this season. You take Donovan Mitchell out of the game, you’re down eight. He comes back in, the game is over. And tonight Donovan Mitchell comes out, they’re down eight. He comes back in two and a half. Three minutes later, they’re down five. They go plus three in the Donovan Mitchell list minutes led by, you know, James Harden and some of the other second unit guys have been, frankly, the Cav second unit wasn’t great for a lot of tonight. Heading into that fourth quarter, a lot of the second unit guys were like minus 10 or worse against a Nuggets bench that struggles mightily. A lot of the time without Nikola Jokic. But the fourth quarter came around. James Harden knew what time it was. And I mean, look, the Darius Garland part of this again is more about his availability or lack thereof this season, I think, because this time last year, the Cavs were advocating for Darius Garland to be named Clutch Player of the Year. How quickly we forget, right? So Darius Garland has had those moments, too. We’re not going to, I promise we won’t rehash the Carlin Harden trade every single time we come on podcast for, for the rest of the year, but just feel like that’s worth pointing out. And again, you’re seeing it tonight. Harden is a better version of the stagger that the Cavs had with Garland and Donovan Mitchell. He’s just, he’s sturdier, he’s bigger. There are more passes that he can make, different angles that he can make them from because he’s taller and he can see things that Darius Garland couldn’t see and he can take more contact. Like James Harden. Something you, I mean, as much as the Cavs would bend over backwards to praise Darius Garland’s defense at times, and that was as telling about Darius Garland’s defensive issues as anything, was how much the Cavs insisted on praising him in public every anytime he held up. Okay, James Harden had four blocks tonight. Like the broadcast showed four. I don’t know. Regardless, he had some blocks. He had three or four blocks and he had a couple of. Look, no one’s mistaking James Harden for an all world defender. Like it’s been a long, it’s a long time since OKC when he was actually asked to like take serious defensive assignments. But like he was legitimately making plays at the end of this game, crowding Jokic at the end of the game, he forced a turnover on Jokic, that Jokic tried to flop into a foul at the very end of this game. And then on, I want to say the second to last possession, was it him who was matched up on Jamal Murray when the cat when the Nuggets were looking for someone to throw the ball to off of Jokic, they ended up having to throw to Tim Hardaway Jr. Didn’t have best night from. From 3, missed the shot. Right. So I just think that there are bigger picture things that the Cavs need to sort out with the Donovan Mitchell, James Harden pairing. But like at its baseline tonight, you can see having one of these dudes, all world creators, run your offense at all times is a huge boost for a team that again, you’d love to see that with Darius. You would have loved to seen that with Darius Garland, but the guy was just hurt. Like for the rest of this year we didn’t know what his outlook was going to be. James Harden is, is going to be here. And you’ve seen in these first two games when Diamond’s on the court, it can be a little clunky still, which is totally to be expected. These dudes are going to need some time to fill each other out when he’s off the court. James Harden running the offense looks like James Harden running any other offense. And that you’ve already seen Jared Allen, Jalen Tyson, Sam Merrill reaping the benefits of that.
Speaker A: Yeah. And you mentioned Jalen Tyson. I want to get to this last point about the just the pain pace of the game with James Harden on the court because Jimmy, we talked about this previously. Like he had to come off of a couple of personal reason games where he wasn’t playing for the Clippers. It was a couple of the few games that he had missed the entire season was right before he got traded. So then the Cavs not being able to have him as a practice participant because of the trade pending and all these things, he wasn’t able to go through that USC practice in full. When it comes to him being there in Los Angeles, which is big because we talked about it last season with DeAndre Hunter not being able to have as many practice days, stacking those opportunities with those players is super important, but not having those can be debilitating. But James Harden, even just being able to be in the room during a practice is helpful and I think we’ve been seeing that. Plus when it comes to the pace of play, there was today, obviously in Denver, everybody knows that it’s hard to breathe in Denver. So according to Chris Fedor of cleveland.com and he told this to our Subtext subscribers, James Harden went through an extensive workout and then ran the arena steps in the altitude at shoot around today ahead of tonight’s game and then played in the longer stint before when Donovan Mitchell comes out in the first stint of the first quarter. Quarter, whatever. He looked tired, Jimmy. He did not look himself. Brad Dougherty was trying his hardest to say that he looked conditioned. He didn’t. Right. And that’s not a testament to James Harden in the past not being in shape. Yada yada yada. Sometimes you just need a couple games, especially when playing in Denver, to get your legs, to get your breath, to get your lungs, all these things. But in that same vein, how he played and manipulated the defense on the offensive end when it came to the fourth quarter and the game slows down as it does during the playoffs. And as Kobe Altman said in his post trades in line press conference, wanting to see what it would look like, the difference between Darius Garland going tween tween, feeling like he has to get to the rim, and then not being able to finish because there’s a bigger defender this time. And this is a really specific example from tonight’s game where two James Harden drove to the lane after being contested from the three point line, saw Jonas Valanchunas standing in the middle of the paint and said instead of trying to force it and get a layup, maybe get fouled, whatever, he did a jump pass to the top of the key to Jalen Tyson, who had a wide open look. And obviously Jaylon Tyson came into tonight’s game as the second best three point shooter in the entire NBA.
Speaker B: So.
Speaker A: So that just creates a better look than potentially what the Cavs would have had even just a week ago. And I think it’s important because of the pace of play that the Cavs have been playing before James Harden got here and then also trying to adjust to his style. And sure, Donovan Mitchell still plays like a man with his head caught on fire 100 miles an hour getting down the court and that’s what we saw to win the game. Get a foul and then get to the line. And James Harden was still in the backcourt when that was happening. But I do think that having two tempos, having two styles is going to benefit the Cavs in multiple different ways. And we talk about that when, when it comes to the pick and roll style and being able to read defenses and feed Jared Allen in the pocket or Sam Merrill. And I will go into that later, but I think that’s a really good opportunity for James Harden to continue to grow his, his chemistry and camaraderie with this team.
Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, to your point about the difference between Darius going tween tween and James running pick and roll like again, to dumb it down in caveman’s terms, just by virtue of James being so much taller and stronger, he can do. He can just move more efficiently on the basketball court. He’s got burst, but he can, you know, he can get by a guy in one dribble. He can, he can throw his shoulder into somebody and create contact. So sometimes you can, let’s say, manufacture some of that content. James Harden, like you’re saying, started the game slow. He was two for seven. From three might have not, might not have had his legs. Six free throws, six big free throws in a two point game that off like Darius Garland is just not that guy. He’s not getting to the line. So even when James Harden doesn’t have it, he’s going to be able to find ways to manufacture opportunities for himself or others with simple gestures. Like you mentioned the point about James Harden not having practice and how and kind of comparing that to DeAndre Hunter. I think it’s a bigger deal for everyone else to not have practiced with James Harden than it is for James Harden to not have practiced with them. Right. Because it’s like I don’t know, James Harden goes out there like it’s the James Harden offense now and it’s not seamless by any means, but there is an element to this where it’s just like James goes out there. It’s kind of like high level pickup. Like let’s run some pick and roll and I’ll just read the game and. Cause he reads the game at, at such a high level. I’ll react to the defense. I know what everyone else’s strengths are. You know, we’ve done a couple of film sessions here, so I’ll just. You guys do what you do and I’ll play to everyone else’s strengths and I’ll, I’ll read this defense. It’s been, it’s been an elite offense that what I just described. I mean more, more bells and whistles on it and there will be more bells and whistles on it eventually. There have been but that basically. Right. There has been the basis of top 5, top 10 NBA offense for the last decade or so. And you can, I mean it’s, it really is crazy how in some of these lines you can just plug and play. Can just plug and play the guy there are. I think you, the Cavs definitely missed Dean Wade and Evan Mobley tonight on the, on the defensive end. But two games into this trade, all of the moving parts, I mean the Cavs have been down guys offensively you have to be optimistic about the fit.
Speaker A: To close out the James Harden point because I don’t want to be a dead horse. Like it’s the reliability of it and the fact that James Harden was playing the power forward at multiple different times tonight because of the lack thereof of reliability from other players and still coming away with 10 rebounds. At 6 foot 5. This can be a conversation about DeAndre Hunter or Darius Garland. Pick your poison at this point. But when we talk about the lineup manufacturing and the combinations that Kenny Atkinson was forced to find, obviously, no Dean Wade, no Max Drew, no Evan Mobley. As Jimmy mentioned, they missed all those guys. But Naquan Tomlin was in foul trouble. Keone Ellis was in foul trouble. Sam Merrill was in foul trouble. And I’m not going to say I was in love with the starting unit going up against Nikola Jokic being four guards and and Jared Allen. But I think it helps James Harden playing in a second unit where other guys are coming in and still trying to figure out their roles, whether that’s Keon Ellis or Dennis Schroeder being like, well, I’m trying to find my place here, too, James, just go get a bucket and we’ll figure it out from there. Or it’s Naquan Tomlin. Hey, tell me where I’m supposed to be so I can be most beneficial to you. Right? And these kinds of mixes and matches. Thomas Bryant, right, helped me be the most efficient self that I can be. I think that’s extremely important for what the combinations that the Cavs have been finding, but also going forward, how they can structure who they have on the floor. Obviously, it was beneficial that Jonas Valanchunas and Nikola Joges don’t play on the floor at the same time. So Denver and doesn’t employ a too big lineup. So the Cavs could go smaller, they could go to Naquan, they could go to James Harden at the 4, who was subbing in and out together. Right. I just think there’s so many different layers that Kenny Atkinson was able to deploy in tonight’s game. And while not everything might have worked, him being able to make quick adjustments on the fly has been something that we’ve asked of him throughout the entirety of the season. And obviously having Donovan Mitchell be able to get breathers on a night that he still had 32 points, 10 assists, 3 of 10 from deep and 11 of 23 from the field. I think it’s beneficial to everybody, but most and most importantly, it’s beneficial to Donovan because it takes the load off of him. And that’s something that we’ve been talking about on this podcast since last playoffs and finding an area of reliability for him to trust in others. And maybe Kenny doesn’t want to say it’s a you go, I go kind of thing, but having that even be a process of thought is helpful for star players.
Speaker B: Yeah, I don’t know that it necessarily has to be like, your turn, my turn. I don’t know that that necessarily has to be a bad thing. Right. If Donovan wants to chill in the corner for a couple of possessions, by all means, be my guest. Same goes for James Harden if James Harden wants to hang out for a little bit. I mean, ideally you’d like everyone to be moving off the ball at all times and cutting and playing the beautiful game. Obviously, that’s what Kenny likes the most. But number one, both of these dudes, just by virtue of existing on the basketball court, can help each other. They’re both capable shooters. They both space the floor. James Harden I don’t know about tonight, but against Sacramento was shooting a bunch of catch and shoot threes, which was. That’s an evolution in his game. Part of one of his. As he was sort of transitioning out of this Houston Rockets alpha all the time kind of role, like playing with Embiid in Philly, it was a kind of a hang up that he would get some of these looks and he’d pass them up. I think I even saw him pump fake one or two of them tonight. That’s always gonna be a work in progress because he’s so used to playing this way. But against Sacramento, he was letting those things fly and he was hitting them. That’s huge. Donovan Mitchell getting more catch and shoot threes. That sounds great for the Cavs. I get what Kenny’s saying. You don’t. And he, he mentioned one of the first things he said after Sacramento was, I didn’t think it looked your turn, my turn. I don’t know if I agree with that. And I don’t know that’s always a bad thing for. For those two to. It’s kind of like the old LeBron thing about resting on the court. Like sometimes LeBron, when he played with Kyrie would just go, all right, I. I’m kind of winded. Go do stuff. That’s what he liked about Kyrie is like Kyrie, he didn’t necessarily have to be in rhythm to just go get a bucket, right? LeBron could just call on him, throw him a grenade, go do something. Kyrie makes something happen there. Again, you know, you want to smooth the edges out. And I think the Cavs will be able to do a little bit more with. With Don and James as they get more acquainted with each other. But this is a fine start. Superstars playing together inherently, there’s going to be always a little bit of your turn, my turn. Because they’re both so used to doing their thing, I don’t necessarily think that’s a bad thing. I will say, though, to your point about the four guards and the Cavs did get beat up a little bit on the glass at times tonight. The Dean Wade reliance makes me super nervous right now.
Speaker A: I blame you, Jimmy. I blame you. Because the last podcast you were like, this always happens. Dean Wade gets into a rhythm, and then he somehow pulls up on the injury report and is hurt. And we don’t know what happened when it happened. This is another case of Dean Wade wasn’t available when the Cavs needed him. And sure, it worked out, but, like, we can’t put no more bad juju out for Dean. We especially because we know how fragile he can be on occasion.
Speaker B: You blaming me or you blaming fate? Because this is just what happens. This is just what happens with Dean Wade. I nicknamed him Dean N.P. wade a couple years ago for a reason. I take no joy in it. The guy just gets hurt. His. His lower extremities haven’t been cooperating with his basketball career. It’s this, honestly, like, it’s borderline a cycle. Like, you can. You can time it up. I don’t know if I don’t know what Dean Wade’s astrology sign is, but it’s almost like when the mood turns a certain shape. It’s like a beginning of the season. Oh, Dean Wade struggling a little bit to find that confidence he had last season after he fell out of the rotation at the end of last year, midway through the season. Oh, Dean Wade, one of the Cavs most important players by all these advanced defensive metrics. Don’t sleep on Dean Wade. Dean Wade, so underrated. Dean Wade can’t get rid of. And I agree with this decision, by the way. Can’t dump Dean Wade in a trade to get under the second apron because he’s indispensable as a rotation player. Agree with that decision. And then we get to this part where Dean White just hurts. And it’s like, well, I don’t know. I don’t know what to make of it.
Speaker A: For some reason, I feel like it keeps happening on long road trips because last time it was when he was coming back from having a kid and he tweaked something at a Rice University practice. And then we didn’t hear from him for like a couple of months. And now it’s. Again, they’re on this five day road trip. Hey, what happened to Dean Wade? What happened to his ankle? And I’m not trying to make jokes about it because it’s a serious matter, right?
Speaker B: It’s sad. It’s. Honestly, I feel bad for the guy. I feel bad for the guy. Because over it’s like knee, ankle, this stuff. He keeps, seems like he keeps having these little tweaks that last just long enough and nag just long enough to throw him off his rhythm and then he comes back and it takes him a while to get out. I’ll tell you this, I’ll tell you this much though. We have less of a danger this time of Dean Wade falling completely out of the rotation as a result of this. Just because the Cavs don’t have very many. Like they need Dean Wade to fill those minutes at the four now more than ever. They, they just need bodies. And I mean they clearly they. The DeAndre Hunter trade was a, a Jaylon Tyson trust trade. It was also a Dean Wade trust trade. So that I think there’s less of a risk. Like there will be probably be a little bit less pressure. Also, hopefully for Dean Wade’s sake, this is a little bit less significant of an injury, so maybe he can bounce back a little bit quicker. I don’t know what, what the deal is with his ankle, but I think he’ll have a little bit more wiggle room to bounce back from this one. If you, if you’re looking for a, a bright side on it.
Speaker A: Yeah. And the other portion you mentioned, not necessarily seeing Dean Wade fall out of the rotation, the other portion of that is Max Schru still is in fact. So we have no idea what the rotation is going to look like. The other portion of that, a little add on to the add on. Jaylon Tyson is looking like a capable starter whether you have him at the three or the four, not going to push it that far. You don’t want to have him@the4 if you can help it. But as a starting small forward, Jalen Tyson is looking like somebody that can hold his own in the NBA. And we’ve had that conversation on this podcast at length. So I’m going to move on to maybe my last thing from tonight. We talked about James Harden, right. And the impact that he can have on the bigs. Jared Allen has had his fourth consecutive double double. Obviously it’s only James Harden’s second game with the Cavs. Still, every time Evan Mobley and there is Garland two years ago, whatever. Every time Evan Mobley has not been available for an elongated stretch. Jared Allen has stepped up. And we’ve had this conversation a couple of times on this podcast this year in particular when it came to his physical appearance and how people around the NBA, how people fans think of him maybe as soft and all these things because of the narratives from the Knicks series a couple of years ago, yada yada yada, Jarrett Allen continues to show up for this team and we keep talking about reliability, dependability, 30 points from Donovan Mitchell. You might not get it every night. 25 to 30, sure. James Harden, 20 points a night. Reliable. If you can get 20 points from Jared Allen like you’ve been getting, oh man, at least. Obviously it’s difficult to see him getting that when everybody gets healthy. But during this stretch run, when Evan Mobley is unavailable, during this stretch run, however long Dean Wade is going to be unavailable, however long Max Truth is going to be available. The Cavs need Jared Allen and James Harden is consistently making him better. Already. The conversations that we’ve seen on the sidelines of them talking, trying to figure out angles and all these things, but just the connective tissue between those two and then obviously Donovan Mitchell and then also having Sam Merrill back in the two man game that they can run. I just think there’s more options and more people players trying to get Jared Allen involved. And by proxy that means he’s touching the ball more offensively which then again makes him more engaged defensively. That makes him dangerous. That makes the Cavs dangerous. That helps everybody. Even when Evan Mobley, reigning defensive player of the year, is not on the floor, the Cavs can now still rely on Jared Allen. Sure, Nikola Jokic had a great game tonight. He is probably one of the hardest players to guard in the league. Okay, give Jared Allen a little bit of slack on that end. He still was holding his own and and it other than the assists was going bar for bar with Nikola Jokic. I think we have to give James Harden, Donovan, Jarrett Allen their props from tonight’s game, but also just how it has looked not only from tonight or this road trip, but how Jared Allen has consistently been this it’s just had to been tapped into because of the opportunities and the ball being placed in his hand because even he has said it in the past, he cannot do it by himself offensively. He needs everybody around him to help him out.
Speaker B: Number one. I’ll say this is going to sound hilarious, but you’ll take 22, 11 and 14 from the best player in the world. You’ll take that from Nicola Jokic, 6 for 11, 22 points. Like I feel like Jared Ella did a decent job. I really do. I feel like he was fighting till the end. They made it hard on Jokic late at time. I mean they sent him help but okay, still you have to fight to get to that point. So a lot of. A lot of times Jokic gets the ball down low. Elk doesn’t make it there. He just bulldozes his way in there and gets two points. That soft, feathery touch. Number two, I would say. I don’t want to sound like a broken record, but I will repeat myself as I have been for the past year and a half. The Cavs did not go as Jared Allen goes. Jared Allen goes as the Cavs go. They put the battery in him that he needs. Like, this is just big man 101, man. They need the ball to play with energy. And James Harden’s really good at finding. Look what James Harden turned Clint Capella into in Houston. Joel Embiid has one MVP playing with James Harden. Coincidence? I don’t know. He didn’t win any MVPs without James Harden, that much I know. This is what James Harden does with Big man, and he’s going to keep to over and over and over again. I would like the way that Kenny’s been pairing Don and Evan all year. I see no reason why that shouldn’t continue when Evan comes back and then James and Jarrett can recreate. The energy, can build on the energy. They can be better as a pick and roll duo than Darius and Jarrett were. Like, I don’t think that’s crazy to say at all. This has been a great stretch for Jared Allen in general. Before James Harden got here, he’s been balling. But this game in particular doesn’t. This game for the people who would say this sounds a little bit like Groundhog Day and like they don’t really care what Jared Allen. Oh, Jared Allen’s on another great regular season stretch. Cool. Wake me up when he does it for five games in a row in April. And maybe first of all, totally fair. We’ve seen this movie before with Jared Allen. You want to see it transfer over. You should still have your guard up. I get that. But didn’t tonight’s game feel like the kind of game that Jared Allen might tend to fade from otherwise? Nikola Jokic, super difficult guard. Jonas Don Tunis shoulder checking Jared Allen in the face late in the game. There were some moments where, like, Jared Allen gave up a offensive rebound on a missed three pointer to. I don’t remember which guard it was, but a guard who shot the three pointer like he, Jared Allen was the guy who contested him and the guard beat him to the rebound. Okay. There were some low moments there in other circumstances when the Cavs maybe weren’t getting Jared Allen involved as much. This would be a recipe for Jared Allen to fade from the game and for everyone to dig into their meanest tweets and say that Jared Allen disappears from games and he’s too. He’s not tough enough for these kinds of environments. The Denver Nuggets are pending. Aaron Gordon’s hamstring could very well be in the Finals. Like they are that good when they are healthy. They can absolutely go toe to toe with anybody in the Western Conference, including Oklahoma City. They took them to seven last year with Aaron Gordon playing on like 1.5 legs. So you better believe that if that team gets healthy with the work they’ve done free agency, they can push OKC even further. This is a championship level team that the Cavs beat on the road on the end of a really long road trip while onboarding a new star player without any practice. And Jared Allen deserves a ton of the credit for the energy. He like, he just kept fighting. Even though he wasn’t getting every rebound, they kept involving him. He kept fighting against Jokic. Even when Jokic would get some tough buckets, he would eventually, eventually start again. Rebounds? He bet he was secure. He had a possession late that they called a loose ball foul on him. That or called a loose ball foul on the guy who was guarding him. That kept possession at a crucial point in the game like it’s February. Nobody cares. I get it. But this is why. This is why having James Harden for Jared Allen matters a ton. Because like I like we said at the top, he’s taller, he’s frankly a better passer than Darius. But he could also see more passing angles than Darius. There are going to be more opportunities to get Jared Allen in involved and that’s going to unlock everything else for Jared Allen. Will that hold up in the playoffs? All I can tell you is I hope, but I’m more optimistic. I can’t guarantee anything, but I’m more optimistic given that James Harden is in the fold now. The other thing about what James Harden can do is that because James Harden will be showcasing Jared Allen on a more consistent basis, I feel like that shows to everyone else, man, Jarrett can do all this stuff. They’re going to be looking for him more consistently. It’s a trickle down effect.
Speaker A: Exactly. Exactly. That’s what I was trying to say about the Donovan to Jared connection. Sam to Jarrett connection, James to Jared connection. And I know, and I’m still not sold on James Harden as a defensive player. I know he had three blocks, he had more blocks in tonight’s game than Jared Allen did. I’m still not sold on James Harden as a defensive player, but he’s 6 foot 5. He’s bigger than Darius Garland. He has a better read on defense than Darius Garland did. He’s able to read when it’s necessary to help defend. I know there were multiple times where Jared Allen is getting backed down by either Nikola Jokas or Jonah Falanchunas. He’s like, please, somebody over Steito, six foot two, help me. Because I am getting bullied here. But I’m holding my ground to a point where it’s difficult for them to decide whether they’re going to do a turnaround, fade away, a layup, a hook shot while they’re making this decision. Somebody come help me. James Harden was usually that guy. Sometimes it resorted into an Aquan Tomlin foul or all these things, but that’s when the IQ kicks in, right? You see the difference when James Harden would come in for a strip steal when or be waiting patiently for that big man to rise up and then get the block off the backboard. All of these things are areas where Darius Garland simply couldn’t do it because he was too small or he wasn’t paying attention on that point and was trying to lean into Kenny Atkinson’s defensive principles for this season, which was go for deflections, be on the perimeter, make sure there’s not no outlet, passes, all these things, especially with Nikola Jokic. I know that Darius would have been out on the perimeter trying to get a steal and get out in the transition. It’s not what James Harden was doing and I don’t think the Cavs win tonight’s game without those deflections, the blocks, the help defense. And we’ve seen it before where the Cavs have been poor as help defenders and it has led to open looks on the perimeter as well. So I’m curious to see and again, I want to reiterate this. I need to see more of it because it’s only James Harden’s second game, but it’s a good start, it’s a really good introduction and he hasn’t even played in Cleveland yet. That’s the next step. Cavs fans being indoctrinated to the James Harden experience because of what he can do, what he means to Donovan and Jarrett and then if to them done saying when. If the Cavs get fully healthy, that will be where the Cavs can finally see their full form and against teams like this is a good start to showcase what could be.
Speaker B: Yeah, James Harden’s not going to be a Plus for your defense, let’s we’ll make that part clear. Like the Cavs were getting beat pretty good in transition early on in this game. Wouldn’t call James Harden a maven of transition defense. He’s going to get beat down the floor every now and again. He’s going to shoot three pointers and fall down trying to draw a foul and he’s going to sometimes not cross half court. He’s. That’s, that’s going to be part of the experience. You’re going to be frustrated by it. Prepare yourself. But the good outweighs the bad again here in February. James Harden is another person on the long list of Cleveland Cavaliers. Welcome to the list who have a ton to prove during the playoffs this year. But for right now, like the Cavs watching these first two games, knowing what’s still on the bench, knowing all the chemistry, knowing what still needs to be ironed out over practices and just experience of playing together, the Cavs feel like a regular season big time team again. I agree.
Speaker A: And to your point about transition defense, Jimmy, I’m still worried about it, especially because we talked about the conditioning of James Harden. Sure, maybe after a couple games he’ll get back to his ready self, but the Denver Nuggets are the fifth worst team in pace. So when they came out and were running the floor, I was very worried. And then I recognized that Nikola Jokic had to have the ball for them to be successful.
Speaker B: Best player on the court knows the scout. He knows what the Cavs aren’t very good at. He’ll throw it over your head. He’s capable of doing that. I would also say to your point about like somebody please help me if James, like James Harden being the bigger guy on defense to I, I don’t know Band aid over the Cavs issues on the perimeter tonight. Like it’s just another underlying to what we said earlier. Dean Wade Rest up buddy. Heal up. This defense desperately, desperately needs Dean Wade.
Speaker A: More than they should. But hey, we’re we’re Dean Wade fans on this podcast so we’re we’re not mad at it. But okay. The Cavs are now 33 and 21 on the season. They’re still the fourth seed in the Eastern Conference. The Cavs have now won four straight gains and have improved to 165 since December 29, which is the best record in the NBA over that span. They’re 112 since January 14 and 10 and 2 over their last 12 road games. But they return to Rocket arena for Wednesday as they welcome in the Washington Wizards and hope to continue their win streak against the newly revamped but still injured Washington Wizards. But with all that being said, that’ll wrap up today’s episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. But remember to become a Cavs insider and interact with Chris, me and Jimmy by subscribing to subtext. Sign up for a 14 day free trial or visit cleveland.comcavs and click on the blue bar at the top of the page. Do y’ all like it? That’s fine. All you have to do is text to where it stops. It’s easy, but we can tell you that the people who sign up stick around because this is the best way to get insider coverage on the Cavs from me, Chris and Jimmy. This isn’t just our podcast, it’s your podcast. And the only way to have your voice heard is through Subtext. Y’ all be safe. We out.